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Eric Florenzano › Comments
How awesome would it be if Twitter ran a PSHB hub (http://code.google.com/p...) and put rel="hub" in their feeds? http://twitter.com/statuse...
David Recordon, James Tindall, Paul Buchheit and 22 other people liked this
Twitter is just a few simple things away from running an open-standards based stack in parallel with their own stack. Neither is wrong, but there are merits to doing it over existing standards as well. Let's start a movement.
- DeWitt Clinton
A movement sounds great. I support you! :)
- Meryn Stol
As soon as Twitter opens up the firehose to everyone, someone can create a "mirror" of sorts that does all the right things PSHB-wise.
- Eric Florenzano
Eric, I don't think they'll provide the firehose for free anytime soon. I think that right now it's an important source of revenue for them.
- Meryn Stol
@Eric, are things like favorites in the firehose? What prompted this is that my favorites feed (http://twitter.com/favorit...) is still not updated on FriendFeed. All Twitter needs to do is stick a rel="hub" in there and run a hub (heck, they could use Superfeedr's or Google's) and sites like FriendFeed would get the fat pings instantly. A few hours of work and immediately the web would be better, faster, and more open.
- DeWitt Clinton
I say - let's do it!
- imabonehead
We can't... from the BirdDog content license - "5.ii.b - No Redistribution. Unless expressly authorized by Twitter, you may not distribute, sublicense, lease, rent or re-syndicate the Content or the Content Feed on a stand-alone basis, or display or perform the Content anywhere except on your Service." -- http://twitter.com/help...
- Ken Sheppardson
This has already been discussed on the Twitter dev list (between myself and John K.) - short answer was no. Looking for that discussion...
- Jesse Stay
Here it is - I was quite bummed by their response: http://groups.google.com/group...
- Jesse Stay
Best solution right now is for us all to develop a standard that copies Twitter's, get that widely used and adopted with open source software that implements it, and then when Twitter is in the minority, tag on a real-time layer to it.
- Jesse Stay
We (Superfeedr) are indeed working on that... it's not quite ready, but hopefully I'll have good news for early next week :) As a matter of facts, it works wuit well with user feeds already :) Search feeds are a little bit harder.
- Julien
Julien, what are you guys doing about the terms of Service? I thought Twitter didn't allow that.
- Jesse Stay
Per my link above, from John Kaluci: "Technically, someone could build a service to consume from the Streaming API and push into PubSubHubBub. This would be against the EULA though. "
- Jesse Stay
"5.ii.b - No Redistribution. Unless expressly authorized by Twitter, you may not distribute, sublicense, lease, rent or re-syndicate the Content or the Content Feed on a stand-alone basis, or display or perform the Content anywhere except on your Service." -- http://twitter.com/help...
- Ken Sheppardson
Here's my proposal - hoping you guys can join me: http://staynalive.com/article...
- Jesse Stay
@Jesse -- good read. Just to frame this, I'll be honest, I'm not all that interested an "OpenTwitter." (Though I am all for a more open Twitter, and have nothing against people that want to clone the Twitter API.) I think what they've done is neat, but it is only a small part of what can be done once we make the web itself better at low-latency distribution of content + federation of identity and social graphs.
- DeWitt Clinton
There's something much more powerful afoot than any single network or any single API. Think what could be enabled with Atom and RSS, PubSubHubbub (or rssCloud), Salmon, ActvityStreams, OAuth, OpenID, Webfinger, and Portable Contacts. That dwarfs any single thing we've seen thus far. In other words, don't think OpenTwitter; think bigger.
- DeWitt Clinton
Seems to me the real attraction of Twitter's API is as a *publishing* protocol, not necessarily as a way to consume streams. For that we have the collection/stack DeWitt mentioned. But allowing someone to push out what they're doing form their iPhone, Air app, etc., sure... OpenTwitter's a good option. And that's how the platforms like Wordpress, Tumblr, etc are implementing it, right?
- Ken Sheppardson
OpenTwitter could technically work on RSS. I'm thinking about a gateway of some sort that reads in RSS/RSSCloud/Atom/PSHB and publishes out in Twitter-compatible format so all the Twitter clients can understand it. I think it could actually work well with RSS, but for Twitter and others to adopt RSS, market forces are going to have to push them to do so. They're much more likely if we make it as easy as possible for the Twitter clients to do so.
- Jesse Stay
* rssCloud insufficient as a base for mublogging federation. * we'll support it for real time updates (as much as we can). * if there's more functionality added to rssCloud / and/or other protocols that we can use, we'll support and adapt to new protocols as they evolve. Regarding: xmpp pubsub * it's heavy (need server, etc.) * we'd like to have it, maybe we should implement, but not a high priority right now. http://status.net/wiki...
- A Mitchell
Thanks for the link to the OMB roadmap, A Mitchell. In general I like that direction -- identify and create the requisite underlying technologies, then build the special purpose (Twitter-like, microblogging, etc) services on top of them.
- DeWitt Clinton
Also, I should add that I'm only suggesting rel="hub" and PSHB support for the per-user feeds. The firehose is a different story -- I'm not asking for that -- it scales differently and has direct implications for Twitter's business model.
- DeWitt Clinton
DeWitt, I agree, but Twitter didn't make it sound like that was happening any time soon when I asked in that thread above. You should bring it up again on the dev list though - I'd love to see that, yes.
- Jesse Stay
Google Acquires AppJet - http://etherpad.com/ep...
ropiku, Tyson Key, Roman Zolotarev and 78 other people liked this
Congratulations! "We are happy to announce that AppJet Inc. has been acquired by Google. The EtherPad team will continue its work on realtime collaboration by joining the Google Wave team."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
I've been waiting for this :)
- Benjamin Golub
Congrats to the team (http://etherpad.com/ep...)
- Merry Xmas FFeeders - AJ
I'm sad that they're shutting it down though :(
- Paul Buchheit
Shutting it down?! why?
- Susan Beebe
No etherpad or alternative for the next 18-24 months :(
- Peng-Toh
This freaking sucks.
- Eric Florenzano
if the technology gets integrated with google docs, it would be as good as the current etherpad
- Mike Chelen
Yeah, I'm not sure what I'm going to do now for jotting down notes...I guess back to email
- Benjamin Golub
google docs still works nicely for most document tasks, including sharing or publishing as needed
- Mike Chelen
I knew it! Docs really needs some Etherpad awesomeness http://blogoscoped.com/forum...
- Jérôme Flipo
Google docs is my friend :)
- Susan Beebe
Even Wave's playback needs some Etherpad's time-slider sauce.
- Jérôme Flipo
if Google works as fast trying to figure out what to do with Etherpad as they did for Jotspot or Jaiku, just to name a few, one can say goodbye to Etherpad and stop using it. This is bad news actually.
- lelapin
SO this is like FF - another talent grab - Google's acquiring more smart talent
- Susan Beebe
I hope Google announces some way for us to create new pads, my online learning classroom will not be the same without etherpad :-(
- Shakeel Mahate
Ouch.
- Адский Блондин
Oh noes! I'm with Shakeel...I need EtherPad for my high school Digital Media students. It's one of the few collaboration sites that isn't blocked at the district level.
- Shea
Shutting down etherpad is a travesty. Fucking Google, keep it open.
- Mitch
I had a feeling this would happen... Etherpad is basically a simplified proto-wave.
- Fa La La La Lindsay
I loved etherpad. Simple and great for code sharing. I don't think there is any other web service like etherpad out there. It will be missed.
- vivekian
During one of my phone screens, I was so frustrated with writely that I switched to etherpad.
- Piaw Na
creative
- ★ Soner Gönül
Google MUST keep Etherpad open after March 31st. I fear that this will be the new JotSpot, and there's no simple alternative around.
- Jorge Martins Rosa
Adding new application interfaces like the EtherPad is the right next step for Wave. They need to move beyond the current Wave app interface towards multi-application document interoperability. Otherwise they will end up being categorized as just a really confusing chat services.
- David Lounsbury
Yet another example of why you shouldn't use the cloud for anything remotely important.
- Gabe
In abstract I would agree with you but there are previous examples, in the past, when Google acquired start-ups and literally did nothing with them. The ideal situation would have been acquiring Etherpad before Wave was created let alone released and build something with it as basis. Now what do you think is going to happen? Best scenario would be Etherpad's people being listened to and...
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- lelapin
from email
lelapin: Thing is, if they acquired Etherpad before Wave was created, Etherpad probably would have cost more to acquire. I'd say the long term potential of Wave having similar functionality, and more, devalued Etherpads product. In announcing that they will open source Etherpad, Google seems to be acknowledging this. Seems like a good outcome for everyone, Etherpad employees, Google and their users.
- Andrew Perry
Andrew: I'm just glad Etherpad (probably following the outcry that their earlier post provoked) made public pads possible again and is to be released as open source for anybody to grab the code and create something out of it. I'm not the slightest concerned about the price at which Etherpad would have been acquired had not Wave existed, it's Google we're talking about here.
- lelapin
ericflo on Top Microsoft engineers offer coding tips - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"This is the worst article I've ever read."
- Eric Florenzano
What was the biggest thing in tech this week? Salesforce's major social moves in Enterprise? Silverlight 4? Foursquare API? Seesmic? Other?
Hutch Carpenter, metalerik, Krishna Gade and 3 other people liked this
Kynetx launch of their developer platform. Seriously - you really need to look at what they're doing. It's the biggest thing I've seen since the Facebook platform launch.
- Jesse Stay
Think 100% user-controlled context, regardless of what website they're on.
- Jesse Stay
Silverlight 4 plus Windows Azure. Maybe even Project "Dallas".
- Roberto Bonini
SimpleGeo
- Eric Florenzano
TPB tracker closing down and moving to DHT, PEX, and magnet links
- Itachi
Seesmic, please come to the Mac! The AIR app is horrible!
- Zachary TG
The new FriendFeed notification options. ;)
- Eric Logan
Ok, wow, this is really cool: http://www.visitmix.com/labs...
- Itachi
Zachary: use the Web version of Seesmic.
- Robert Scoble
And if you are desperate, upgrade your AIR to the beta of 2.0. That makes every AIR app run a lot better.
- Robert Scoble
The duel (well actually it was the week before): http://www.cyberpotato.net/...
- Michael Slattery
Jesse: I'm looking, I just don't get it. Their marketing really is sub-par and all your hype doesn't explain WHY it is important. Facebook was INSTANTLY recognizable as important.
- Robert Scoble
Kynetx is important because Scoble doesn't understand it. This is a big plus.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff: it took me 1.5 years to get RSS. But the thing is I still got it before most of you did. I will figure out Kynetx, but the marketing on its site really doesn't do a revolution justice, if Jesse is right.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I'll do several more blog posts about it. It will take some examples to truly show its power.
- Jesse Stay
I agree they need to improve their marketing though
- Jesse Stay
Robert: if you hated SideWiki; you'll really hate Selectors + Kynetx. But, you should start by reading Craig Burton. The evolution from Cookies to Selectors is the key.
- Cliff Gerrish
Craig's a really smart dude - I finally got to meet him this last week and boy was I impressed.
- Jesse Stay
Set the link here as a bookmarklet and click on it for your blog (or anyone's blog): http://appdirectory.kynetx.com/app...
- Jesse Stay
I explained it further here: http://friendfeed.com/jessest...
- Jesse Stay
of course Silverlight 4 :)
- Enes TAYLAN
Silverlight 4 & Seesmic
- Judah Richardson
ericflo on ETL - Most companies do it, few know what its called - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"Err, I think most companies do know what it's called."
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on I'm done with Postgres - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"So the main reason you don't like Postgres is because you can't be bothered to edit pg_hba.conf?"
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on I developed a micro-blogging app (Meedeor) and am looking for some feedback - http://www.reddit.com/r...
Jordi Rivero liked this
"Just signed up: http://meedeor.com/ericflo Pros: Pretty kickass admin UI, really good user experience on the signup. Cons: Not sure I like the left-to-right display of my actual microblog, you still have a small network, no way to import friends from facebook/twitter. Overall, you guys have a good start. I think you could be big for the artistic/creative community, but probably less so for everyday people and for the proggit crowd. (i.e. I can't see myself posting code snippets to your service.) It'll be interesting to see where you guys end up!"
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on What's the best open-source project to begin developing for? - http://www.reddit.com/r...
Michael R. Bernstein and Steve "Daddy do it!" Lacy liked this
"Contributing to an open source project is *always* better if you scratch your own itch. Help build something that you want to use. Make something that you already use better. That's the only real way to be satisfied with open source software development."
- Eric Florenzano
For the love of God Paul Buchheit, be a man and put FriendFeed out of its misery - http://www.inquisitr.com/43743...
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Lora Lufark, milus, Mike Nencetti and 17 other people liked this
Article FAIL.
- Louis Gray
Liked for Louis Gray's comment :)
- Eric Florenzano
Comment WIN!
- Jesse Stay
Inquisitr, they are too tabloid
- Kirill Bolgarov
Completely agree that this is Article FAIL Louis!
- Travis Koger
On another point, why is Duncan still posting his articles to FF if he thinks it should be put out of its misery? I mean it is posted by his blog link, but still.
- Travis Koger
Traffic.
- Cristo
BURN IT WITH FIRE
- Johnny Worthington
LOL Noone read the story, he was calling for a time when it would be no more, he feels we as users should know when the end will be, nut running around with our heads cut off.
- Jimminy Fuller
You mean you're suppose to READ Inquisitr stories? I thought it was just the headlines :P
- Johnny Worthington
from iPhone
Jimminy, I read the story.
- Louis Gray
TL;DR your comment Louis. :D
- Jimminy Fuller
Louis, what was fail about it, I'd like to at least know when the service ends, prior to it ending.
- Jimminy Fuller
The article suggests that the only way out is to pick a date it closes.
- Louis Gray
Ah well that is true, I'm trying to archive the service now, but I don't think that's going to get anywhere, far too many legal restrictions. So it all depends on how the deal was structured and if any of the team are still in control of the service. *sigh*
- Jimminy Fuller
I guess it's time to rejuvenate, er .. I mean transform the old Facebook account.
- BLOGBloke
I thought it was Zuckerberg who gets to shoot the old dog. Buchheit & co. sold it to him. Remember?
- Dennis Jernberg
Dennis, no one knows who is actually in charge of the decision, and Buchheit can let us know prior. They won't have an abrupt shutdown, I'd assume.
- Jimminy Fuller
But I don't think that if they do shut it down (and for all we know they likely will), it'll be anytime soon. And of course it won't be abrupt; Yahoo's shutdowns of 360 and Geocities weren't. If FB shut down FF abruptly, they'd have to face a whole lot of angry FriendFeeders.
- Dennis Jernberg
I don't understand all this "friendfeed is over, pick a date" stuff. friendfeed has hit pause on the evolution of features, but it was always the community that brought me here. The world will eventually move on to the point that it will no longer make sense to have a separate site here, but that will likely be a popularity vote made by us (and measured in traffic), not some arbitrary...
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- Clare Dibble
Clare, I don't mind hitting pause on new features. I think EVERYBODY expected that, to some extent. But when I look at http://ff.im/74ECA where current advertised functionality has been broken for almost two months and they haven't yet taken the time to fix it, THAT (to me) says volumes. This place has been given up for dead and nobody's bothered to notify the users. (Also, FF was...
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- Scott of Two Countries
Comment WIN, Louis.
- Roberto Bonini
Death "Throws"? Dictionary FAIL
- Iain Baker
UGH.
- Joe Silence is not Santa
AGREED, Iain.
- Joe Silence is not Santa
Duncan wants it killed, and has blocked the most important members of the community.....why does he even spout an opinion about the service? He wants it killed and just used it to piss on when it thriving....
- Matthew DeVries
I don't see where this idea of us being given fair notice of the shutdown comes from. Kevin Rose gave Pownce users what, an hour to get their shit and get out?
- Matthew DeVries
Perhaps all of Facebook will be transitioned to FriendFeed. If so, how will I access Farm Town? :) I commented more fully at the post itself, after seeing a link to the post on Rahsheen's feed. And no, you're not seeing this level of conversation in Google Reader's social features, and if you are, you can't find the comments. Google Reader's a good sharing mechanism (I'm with Louis on that one), but it's socially awkward.
- John E. Bredehoft
Google reader's Comments engine and sharing engine are fracking perfect, but where it fails is in the conversation searches, and the "What/who the fuck was I talking about/to" and the "what are my friends talking about" function.
- Matthew DeVries
+1 Iain
- Daniel J. Pritchett
I will miss the FF search when it's gone. It's been an extension of my memory for a good year now. Oh well, I'll always have GMail... right?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Re: Django Dose - Django Dose Callcast - Episode #10: 10/21/2009 - http://djangodose.com/podcast...
"Actually Brian did do quite a bit of production/editing on this episode. If you could let us know the specific places where you heard dead air, we will definitely aim to reduce those in the future. It was a fairly difficult episode to coordinate and record with 8 people across the globe, but I think that Brian actually did a good job notwithstanding."
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on Magnum Web Server (Python, epoll) ...By focusing on efficient resource management down to the operating system level, Magnum can run faster than most servers written in compiled code (such as apache)... - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"It is."
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on Are ORMs really a thing of the past ? - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"No"
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on Apple squelches llvm developer talks--calls to question their commitment to the openness of llvm - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"Apple can only lose from this decision. It's already an open source project so there's not really any competitive advantage they can gain, but they certainly can lose mindshare and turn people off of the idea of using LLVM."
- Eric Florenzano
newsycombinator: PubSubHubbub vs. RSSCloud : market shares http://bit.ly/r4dvO - http://twitter.com/newsyco...
Altan Khendup, Mihalcea Razvan, michael sean wright and 11 other people liked this
Page Not Found
- Mark
Couple of things: 1. They're both non-commercial so this kind of super-aggressive marketing is pointless. We're *all* supposedly doing this work to make the Internet work better. 2. In what way is what he's describing "market share" -- what market? And how is he measuring it? I can draw a nice pie chart too. So...? It would be really helpful if people toned down the hype and did more work toward interop.
- Dave Winer
yeah, I bet they were politically motivated by this post. seems like a meaningless study to me
- Mark
Yeah... but... but.. but... who's winning???
- Eoghann Irving
Is there a smiley in there? If so I can't see it. :-)
- Dave Winer
Let's just say I find the increasing hysteria that surrounds new internet technology (be it Wave or RSSCloud) very hard to take seriously. It's like reading a tabloid newspaper or watching cable news.
- Eoghann Irving
Eoghann, me too. It's the results that matter. For me -- the great thing is when CNN releases a realtime feed so I get their news the instant it happens. Or when TechCrunch goes realtime so I get their stories immediately in my feed aggregator. I don't care how it gets there.
- Dave Winer
I care how it gets there. It's ridiculous not to care.
- Eric Florenzano
Eric, do you care how UPS gets a parcel to your office? Or do you just need to know they'll get it there?
- Eoghann Irving
I think this guy needs to find his inner female. Where does this battle culture come from -- video games, town halls? Two means of accomplishing something has to lead to combat? Somebody take me back to the 60s...
- Amyloo
I don't know about "inner female" -- I've seen women fight like brats too. Anyway if we could have a civil discussion about this, he might learn that the approach that his favorite protocol took meant that it was inevitable that I'd revive rssCloud. If they had worked a bit to make it not convert RSS to Atom and had made it not come from Google (yeah I know the guys are working on their...
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- Dave Winer
Very hard to take seriously - but fun for discussion eh?
- Ankush Narula
from iPhone
Just to be clear : the data is just the way we (at superfeedr) get the feeds (and we use these GREAT technologies as much as soon as we can) : for 7+% of them we use PubSubHubbub, for RSSCloud, it's about 1%. Just raw numbers. Nothing else.
- Julien
As for interop : we also did that : http://blog.superfeedr.com/PubSubH... We are able to detect feeds in RT, whether they use one of the other, and since we're a hub, I guess that means that you can get RSSCloud feeds via PubSubHubbub. Isn't that interoperability?
- Julien
7.1 percent of...? I still don't understand what your numbers are measuring. Is it supposed to be a representative sample of something?
- Dave Winer
7.1 of all the feeds we're fetching.
- Julien
Hey Dave, As I clarified when we had lunch 3 weeks ago, the PubSubHubbub reference implementation *never* converted RSS to Atom; RSS2 has been supported completely since June 1st, before we ever spoke. This was a misunderstanding in your read of the spec. As always, the revision history is public (http://code.google.com/p...) in case you forget again.
- Brett Slatkin
I was receiving TechCrunch updates in RSS format via PSHB when I was first experimenting. I'm not sure where the perception of feed transcoding comes from. All it takes is a spec read and a simple experiment to see that it isn't true.
- Matt Mastracci
from iPhone
Julien- any idea how many feeds have Feedburner enabled, but Pingshot (and PSHB) turned off? IIRC, it isn't checked by default when you create a new feed.
- Matt Mastracci
from iPhone
ericflo on Google is turning into Cuil. Since when did quotes mean "Change everything in the quotes or ignore it freely". Makes searching for any programming related stuff hell. - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"I've noticed this lately too, it's quite frustrating."
- Eric Florenzano
Going the Distance Game - Play Fun and Free Online Games at RadioSox.com - http://radiosox.com/games...
A daring story about a single man on his boat and his fight to survive. A tornado has come onto his island and has begun to destroy everything in its path. The only logical and brave thing to do is to run like the wind, going the distance.
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on Addicting Facebook Applications - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"I think you mean addictive."
- Eric Florenzano
Should Facebook Remove Subject Lines from Messages? - http://mashable.com/2009...
Nicholas James, Jason A. Samfield, Diego Barros and 72 other people liked this
I tried to remove the subject in Gmail, but people revolted. I really like that FriendFeed (and Twitter) don't have a subject -- it's just a message.
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
If there's no subject line, how will I know to ignore the message?
- pea
How do you know on FriendFeed?
- Paul Buchheit
I think email would be better if they removed the body instead of the subject.
- Jim Norris
On FF, there's a high assumption that the message I'll get is wanted because only people I sub to can message me. That's not the case with email. Sorry, you were talking about FB. Got derailed by the Gmail comment. I'd be okay with no Subject line in FB messages.
- pea
well, I can guess what's spam on gmail by the subject line. Since I never got spam on facebook's inbox... that could take things right to the point.
- Caio
Friendfeed removes the body from most messages, so you have to do the 'write a comment on your own message' trick to put it in
- Kevin Marks
That's a good point Kevin, a lot of people treat the first comment by the author as the subject line.
- Eric Florenzano
Which makes the feed API annoying for longform stuff
- Kevin Marks
People are using "pseudo tagging" on FF with the [something] syntax just to provide the "context" for their message. So, yeah, title is here to stay (where used).
- Claudio Cicali ♋
I tend to delete emails with no subject lines without reading them, since it's usually just one of my friends or family forwarding me some crap (Note: I have filters to remove Re: and Fwd: and similar additions to subject lines). So in that sense, subject lines are necessary if you want me to read what you have to say. I would extend this same concept to the Facebook Inbox as well:...
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- Otto
Hmm.. On a related note, I should just setup an auto-responder for no-subject-line emails. Tell people "no subject, no delivery", and also warn them not to send me their forward spam. Might work.
- Otto
summarize, FTW!
- Claudio Cicali ♋
+1 for Otto's comment.
- Curtiss Grymala
Twitter has just the subject line, no body. ;)
- Amit Patel
It's the other way around Amit, which is why Twitter is better than Atom/RSS (RSS has titles, Twitter is just short messages). See http://friendfeed.com/paul... for an example.
- Paul Buchheit
"Twitter is better than Atom/RSS"?!? - splutters!
- Tim Tyler
it is very useless btw you also have to change the share box to old way.. It is very difficukt when you want to share a message to another user not to your profile
- Atif UNALDI
Instead of no subject, i often send email with no body, or the same in both. only use body when I need long form.
- David Stratton
Twitter and ff exclude the long-form use case. For email, subject lines should at least be an option. I don't use fb enough to comment on their messaging.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
No subject does totally work. Sometimes I really stuck trying to fill Subj form. Just have no idea how to summarize words like ”How d'ya do”. What's the subject here? No fkcng subj needed, for real.
- Кто это тут у нас
Bruce, the solution is to simply make the "subject" a part of the body, so that there is a smooth transition.
- Paul Buchheit
If there's one general problem I have with Gmail, it's the institutional attitude that they know what's best for the user. e.g. "You don't need to be able to sort by columns." I'm thankful they didn't let you dump the subject, Paul.
- Ken Sheppardson
How do you get users to do that? People don't naturally start long-form messages with concise summaries. Not that a subject line nails this problem, but at least you can prompt the user if it's blank.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
People don't write concise summaries anyway Bruce :). Ken, sorting by something other than date in nonsensical in a conversational context.
- Paul Buchheit
Facebook having a proprietary system that mostly competes with email, but is mostly incompatible with it is kind-of feeble.
- Tim Tyler
Paul: Perhaps, but people aren't always operating in a "conversational context" when they're dealing with email. For something as flexible as email, or messaging systems of any sort, I find it annoying when the system tries to dictate what my workflow and thought processes should look like.
- Ken Sheppardson
Maybe it's a dying use case, but subjects are really great for automated messages that are guaranteed to have a useful subject line. I can scroll through server notices, security advisories, and so on quickly and download the full message if I need to know more. The fact that you can download just the subject line (or rather, the email header) before downloading the entire email is still pretty useful to me.
- Mark Trapp
Ken, I'm referring to the UI. For example, sorting by sender doesn't make sense when there are multiple senders, as is the case in a conversational ui. The ui was designed to solve use-cases, not fill feature checkboxes.
- Paul Buchheit
Also, Gmail wasn't meant to cover all possible use cases. I think it's better to have a product that's very good for many people than mediocre for all people. It has open interfaces (such as IMAP) so that it's easy to use other clients.
- Paul Buchheit
I agree 100% with Ken. I almost always sort my e-mails by date, then subject (in Evolution, I can actually group them by thread, which is really nice). If I just kept all of my e-mails sorted strictly by date and none of them had subjects, I would have no idea which ones were related to each other. It's completely counter-intuitive to remove the subject line from an e-mail. Further,...
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- Curtiss Grymala
It's not meant to cover all use cases, but it's meant to be interoperable, right? If email originating from Gmail is not supplying subject lines (because they're hidden/downplayed/discouraged), but everything else relies on subject lines (like IMAP clients) to weed through the email list, the spirit of interoperability seems to be violated.
- Mark Trapp
I get that, Paul (re use cases vs features) and was just about to mention that I'm thankful for IMAP support, so I can use Thunderbird, Outlook, etc for those instances where my workflow calls for sorting by size; sorting a set of messages with well-formed subjects by subject; using sorting as a quick, visual proxy for search, etc.
- Ken Sheppardson
Mark, I didn't say that it wouldn't supply a subject line :)
- Paul Buchheit
What would it be? The first n bytes of the message? I guess that could work.
- Mark Trapp
i rarely use the subject line in my email
- andy brudtkuhl
yes
- Christopher Harris
it doesnt mean it is the best way if you use something in a way for a long time. i think no subject for emails is a good approach if you really think on it. it is the change scares us.
- Eren Emre Kanal
from iPhone
People who send me emails without a subject rarely have anything to say that I want to read. If you're too lazy to write a subject, then I'm too lazy to read your ramblings.
- Otto
The business world relies on subject messages for threading and sorting, and I anticipate will do so for some time. I would keep it.
- Louis Gray
Doesn't anybody ever take any business communications classes/training any more? Email without subjects lines is like a meeting without an agenda. Oh, and get off my lawn. Humbug.
- Ken Sheppardson
a direct message? no subject line. an email-like message? subject line for sure.
- Jim: Dead Like FF
This is why ultimately we may need to abandon email. It's broken in many ways, but difficult to change.
- Paul Buchheit
If by "broken" you mean "people don't take the time to learn how to use it effectively", I agree. ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
For something meant to be so essential to communication, it shouldn't take time to use effectively: it should be a natural extension of what we do. If we're relying on everyone to use it correctly, that's not very efficient.
- Mark Trapp
ya i dont no why anybody wood half to lern how to do stuff it shuld all be natural
- Ken Sheppardson
Is it the norm to expect everyone to be bilingual? Why not expect electronic communication media to be an extension of the one form of communication that we all spend years to master? Why is it necessary to have to spend another large tract of time to learn another form of communication?
- Mark Trapp
Paul, do you think Google Wave will solve this problem? It doesn't have a subject line and it's much more different than email.
- Eren Emre Kanal
Eren, I don't know what will happen with Wave. It's a very interesting concept, but I suspect that it still needs a lot of refinement.
- Paul Buchheit
Now I'm curious what the subject-free gmail would have looked like, especially messages to/from other email systems.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
It's less different than you would imagine Bruce. The biggest change is in the composer. Gmail already kind of merges subject with body in the inbox. Unfortunately I didn't figure out the right ui until sometime after wanting to remove the subject. If I had thought of it sooner, we might have been able to do it.
- Paul Buchheit
At least I (mostly) got rid of it on reply though :)
- Paul Buchheit
Writing concisely, knowing what a paragraph is/should be, understanding what a "topic sentence" is, and being able to summarize a document in a single sentence aren't skills that are unique to email. Blog posts, reports, books, magazine articles all have subjects... except we call them "titles". Seems like the people I work with all use email in a ways that's fundamentally different than some of you. I don't really get where the idea that subjects are superfluous is coming from.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, when I call up a friend or family member, I don't start the call with "This phone call will be about the weather. Hey Dad, how's it going?" Conversations are not written prose, and the premise being put out is that emails are extensions of conversations.
- Mark Trapp
That's a great example Mark. Subjects are very formal.
- Paul Buchheit
As is most business communication.
- Ken Sheppardson
Email is formal, chat isn't...
- Johnny Worthington
Mark: I notice that most if not all the entries on http://marktrapp.com/blog have subjects/titles. Why?
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, because they're prose, not conversations.
- Mark Trapp
Paul - the fact that you say you "mostly got rid of it on reply" is exactly why subjects are so necessary. How else do we keep those conversations inline when dealing with other e-mail clients? Not all e-mail clients are able to thread conversations the way Gmail and Evolution do. With most of them, we have to rely on being able to sort/group by subject in order to keep related conversations together. As long as that functionality is broken, the concept of a subject has to stay in place.
- Curtiss Grymala
Curtiss, I'm not talking about removing the RFC822 header, I'm talking about changing the ui so that people don't have to waste time thinking about subjects.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul, I have to disagree with eliminating email. It's VERY useful for me in the way that I use it and for the people with whom I correspond. Of course, I don't have Wave yet so I may be eating my words soon.
- Jim: Dead Like FF
OK, I'm out. Y'all can continue to imagine this sort of topicless/subjectless world where email's just about "conversations"... good luck with that.
- Ken Sheppardson
But, somewhere that subject still needs to originate. Especially when we are talking about formal business communication, all of our messages (assuming you are using a snippet from the beginning of the message as the subject) would have a subject of "Greetings, _____" or "Dear ________" which would be completely counter-intuitive.
- Curtiss Grymala
Imagine a typewriter.
- Paul Buchheit
In the old days, when letters didn't have subjects, there was no easy way to automatically file them together or find one you were looking for. I would hate to go back to that.
- Gabe
Imagine, if you will a typewriter NOOOOOOO!!!! I'm so glad computers came along! I had a temp job working on a selectric, on a 3-carbon forms. It was a nightmare.
- anna sauce
I just figured out how to filter my gmail for no subjects. Took a while, but subject:"no subject" will do the trick. Looking through those, they're almost all crap. I'm going to give them their own label for a while, see how they look. If they continue to suck, I'll set up a canned response to tell the sender to stick a subject on there before sending it.
- Otto
What would be a great innovation is if an email program let you assign a subject to email conversations that the original sender wasn't polite enough to write for you.
- Gabe
+1 for Gabe.
- Curtiss Grymala
repeating how the ui might play out: snippet of body becomes the subject for a long form email, or short form email message is completely scannable in the message list.
- karl dotter
Kevin is spot on for why subjects world is better.
- Matthew DeVries
I agree with Kevin. I know I'm late to this thread but to answer Paul's "How do you know on FriendFeed?", the original post in FriendFeed/Facebook is in a lot of ways like a subject. It generates an overall topic that makes replies the body. When dealing with large conversation flows such as FF/FB, this tells the reader whether it is worth reading beyond. In many ways Twitter is the...
more...
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
To add on, FriendFeed/FB Walls are in a lot of ways equivalent to being the flat file view of a message board's group of discussions/topics. Without subjects, it's just a bunch of unstructured data.
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
There's the expectation of the subject field to be there - it's a hard habit to break now - and it does give a bit of context and scanability to mail clients. But the process of labeling up mail could be migrated into place - 'mail tags', so to speak. Which could work for both sender and receiver and could make mail archives more like a folksonomy - and thus offer more integration with other web services.
- zeroinfluencer
I second that David, i was thinking along the lines. I would rather see the subject line being replaced with tags. Just keywords, no summary. Less thinking needed to summarize the message into one sentence, thus more productive and even useful for e. g. semantic purposes.
- Tibor Holoda
Hey - getting back on topic (we all got derailed there for quite a while) - I see no reason that Facebook really needs subjects on their messages. Since the messages are basically only used inside of the proprietary Facebook platform, which already threads the messages anyway, there's no real need for the subject.
- Curtiss Grymala
For what it's worth, Wave takes the first couple lines and makes it a pseudo subject, from what I can tell... It made it bold in the body of the wave (is it called a body?) and then added a dash in the inbox. Check out this example: http://img.skitch.com/2009100... all i did was type "Hi Louis!" as the first line of my wave and it did the rest
- Frankie Warren
Nope, don't need subject line. Instead, use labels (tags) to filter content (folders / views)
- Susan Beebe
For Facebook messages, the subject line isn't important; context doesn't need to be set. For "business" messages (Gmail/Outlook), it's more important, because the subject line is (usually) used as the first method of filtering/prioritising.
- Andrew Terry
+1 Andrew.
- Curtiss Grymala
yup, subjects with small updates is clumsy and noting but extra line that is not needed at all
- testbeta
I don't understand the problem. In the newsfeed there is no subject-line. In the message box, which is meant for long(er) form messages, there is one for fairly obvious reasons. It allows people to summarise the message and saves space. P.S. I use Facebook messaging as email nearly as often as I do Gmail, which I also want to include the subject-line.
- Vincent van Wylick
Yes.
- Meryn Stol
Yeah! Why do we always need to be formal?? Huh!? Is It social networking thingy or office networking thing? Lol! Good question, they should remove this. :)
- Mohammad Abdurraafay
from iPhone
The whole argument is pointless because in FB the subject is optional.
- Jason Williams
from iPhone
Wow, so much complaining. For subject haters, is it really that much of a problem to leave the box blank?
- Rebecca Sun
Furthermore, if you're writing just to say "hi" or whatever, put it on the wall! (Unless you're trying to keep your relationship a secret)
- Rebecca Sun
ericflo on Chicago Boss = Rails Idioms + Django Templates + Erlang Power - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"Totally disagree on this one. MongoDB has its benefits, for sure, but it's still going to be limited by it's choice to value consistency the same way that MySQL does. When you hit the scale ceiling, something like Cassandra, HBase, Hypertable, or Riak is going to be the way to go."
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on New to Django - Should I learn Python first, before I dive in? - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"I came to Python from Java because of Django, and learned Python through Django. I think jumping right in is the best way to learn, so I'd recommend it. Python 2.X is the right choice right now. Django uses Python2.X, there's tons of material out there for it, and it'll be several years before the majority of people switch over."
- Eric Florenzano
Re: Django Dose - Django Dose Community Catchup - Episode #2: 09/30/2009 - http://djangodose.com/podcast...
Eric Florenzano liked this
"Great show again and thanks for the mention :-) (P.S.: Austrian not German ;-) )"
- Horst Gutmann
Dang! I took a stab at nationality and I stabbed wrong. Sorry dude!
- Eric Florenzano
LOL, no worries :-D
- Horst Gutmann
from IM
Live now: This Week In Tech 214 with Kevin Rose, Patrick Norton, and John C. Dvorak. http://live.twit.tv. Discuss here...
Michael Hansel, Daniel Rowley, Kelly J and 16 other people liked this
Hi, Leo
- x5315
The WebKit in Chrome is the full version. It's completely open source, both Google and Apple work on it
- x5315
I'm just waiting for Wolfram Alpha to be integrated into Twitter/Facebook :p
- Phopo Jijo
Googe's 11th: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009...
- Leo Laporte
Twitterfall uses Cassandra for some of their stuff. Talk about scale!
- x5315
Cassandra is the future x5315
- Eric Florenzano
yeh, i work at Twitterfall :p
- x5315
TWIT FF page up at last!
- Ben
Yes i think Google unforked Webkit back in may
- Bruce Segal
The reason that Chrome was sometimes faster than Safari was because Chrome used a later build.
- x5315
Leo seems extremely distracted by something.
- Maxx Cho
Yeah he explained it earlier -- death threat -- probably shouldn't bring it up though
- Phopo Jijo
Light Peak is the way to go.
- Michel
Sounds like Dvorak has dropped off. Always issues with him. Blurry webcam, no headphones (echo), now no webcam. He should really know better by now.
- Ben
Forget USB 3.0...Light Peak is the future!
- Chris
Light Peak was also an Apple product - http://www.appleinsider.com/article...
- x5315
How long till the phones get it?
- Johnny Worthington
Light peak is cool, because of the need for a universal port for video, peripherals.
- Kevykev
USB and FireWire have power, i hope Light Peak will have it too
- x5315
I have an SSD in my Dell Mini 9. Waiting for my next computer buy till SSDs are affordable
- Johnny Worthington
It shouldn't be hard -- just +5v two little wires... Direct Current too...
- Phopo Jijo
My Macbook Air with SSD boots much faster than my Macbook Pro 17" I just bought
- Ray H
Well FireWire is 30V :p
- x5315
Lets face, Dvorak just throws pipebombs in the room and ducks...
- Phopo Jijo
John C. Dvorak - Tells it how it is.
- x5315
Unibody MBPs manufactured after June are sealed. They no longer have the battery compartment.
- Kevykev
This just in -- Paint Shop Pro adoption went through the roof :p
- Phopo Jijo
What if you use the GIMP?
- Devon Blugh
from twhirl
Do they even still make that?
- x5315
This Week in Accents
- Kevykev
next story
- cxx dxx
French Parliament May Mandate Full Photoshop Disclosure - French photoshop - Gizmodo - http://gizmodo.com/5366828...
- Leo Laporte
Very interesting tech there, Leo.
- Michel
John's pro at makeup.
- x5315
John's pro at everything.
- Michel
Isn't makeup sorta like real life photoshopping? :)
- Bill Heslin
I went to the FOWA tour in April, it was really cool and then FOWD tour this month.
- x5315
But she has spent so much on beauty treatments over the years etc. Not a level playing field.
- Johnny Worthington
First-timer here, so this chat is basically the call-in for the live show?
- Mark
Not a call it, just chat between members.
- Michel
No Mark. This is just one of the chats that coincides with the live show
- Bill Heslin
Ah, thanks guys.
- Mark
Tech news? http://digg.com/d315hed
- Michel
Reminds me of Cuil :p
- Phopo Jijo
Dvorak = Jobs Scientifically proven.
- Mark
I thought Leo was going to ask Kevin about FitBit a while back...
- Devon Blugh
from twhirl
They say that getting enough sleep is one of the keys to weight loss. If you're not sleeping enough, or getting enough water intake to be hydrated, supposedly it makes it harder to lose weight.
- shelter watch
They ship on October 31.
- shelter watch
LOL, circa 1989 my old cell phone weighed about 10 lbs. and it was in a box.
- shelter watch
Apple has a multitouch patent - January 2009
- Bruce Segal
Johnny, what do you guys use to store your ffundercats podcasts on? Are you using standard HDD?
- Bill Heslin
Yes
- Johnny Worthington
Lol. That was the best story of its time.
- Michel
But, I have helped 6 people sign up for Twitter in the past 2 weeks who have no tech savvyness (just Facebook) . Just cause the numbers don't match the stereotypes doesn't necessarily make them untrue.
- Johnny Worthington
Scoble did a list of people who SHOULD be on the SUL... But no one I know would follow any of those people. Twitter has broken out of the Valley Bubble and is now the E Channel.
- Johnny Worthington
agreed Johnny
- Bill Heslin
We usually have a lot more people on FF during TWiT...
- Michel
Weighted Users
- Johnny Worthington
I don't care about any SUL. If I have absolutely no interest in you, or if you haven't said anything even remotely interesting in the past few tweets, (I don't need to know what you had for breakfast) I'm not following you.
- Devon Blugh
from twhirl
So much for 45 minutes :p
- Phopo Jijo
YES! Not everyone has an iPhone or a web enabled phone.
- Johnny Worthington
THe IRC has a larger than usual audience tonight Michel I think it's cause Kevin Rose is on Uggghhh!
- Bill Heslin
But will I be able to see it outside the US? Your networks have a habit of 'region protecting' stuff like this... Hulu, NBC etc...
- Johnny Worthington
Good question,Johnny.
- Devon Blugh
from twhirl
Thanks guys. Great show... BEST TWIT EVER! The shark remained unjumped once again :P
- Johnny Worthington
TWSS! Win
- Johnny Worthington
Toms River NJ? I forgot Patrick was from here...That's like, 25 minutes from me here in Eatontown
- Bill Heslin
Heya Holden
- Bill Heslin
Audible pick: The Accidental Billionaires by Ben Mezrich, http://www.audible.com/adbl...
- Leo Laporte
"Low Cut Tops"
- Johnny Worthington
I enjoyed as usual.
- Dave Hoffman / N3PRO
from twhirl
"I have no contract"
- Johnny Worthington
Great Show... title could've been "Kevin's Sonic toothbrush", although a minor story
- John Hoffer
"I Find It Elitist"
- Johnny Worthington
Johnny..."Low cut tops" MOW...lol Oh wait...wrong show..lmao
- Bill Heslin
LOL
- Johnny Worthington
Its probably NOT the same guy "HDTV dude" is probably a common name.
- Chris
Sept. 28th? FlashForward?
- Hector
Kevin goes makupfree, Patrick has no contract and Dvorak is a private dick
- Johnny Worthington
Oh I see :)
- Hector
Dvorak goes retro
- John Hoffer
"And Dvorak... well, he's just Dvorak"
- Johnny Worthington
Let's hope they really are just taking down existing clips in preparation for their new retro site. But I agree that they should just leave them all up and link back to their HQ versions
- Hector
This week's tease: Kevin Rose goes makeup free, Patrick Norton files his first lawsuit, and Dvorak goes retro. TWiT is next
- Leo Laporte
Leo, good luck with finding out the scumbag. Our prayers are with you and your family.
- Devon Blugh
from twhirl
Yes good luck Leo and otherwise have a great week all TWIT viewers!
- John Hoffer
When/where are the teasers used?
- Lasse Reiersen-Gravdal
agreed Devon. They'll get em ..When someone messes with the Laporte it's like messing with the creator of the internet...Or at least the Pres of the internet...
- Bill Heslin
Thanks for letting us see you work Leo... This type of experience is invaluable :)
- Johnny Worthington
so are we going to get video on FFundercats?? that would be awesome Johnny...
- Bill Heslin
Bill: Google 'Australian Bandwidth' and you'll find your answer :P
- Johnny Worthington
I was just going to say, forget that...lol...Telstra...Nah
- Bill Heslin
Ozzie
- Bill Heslin
Oh it's horrible over here.
- Michel
I don't know how I can survive on 25GB a month, yet, I still do.
- Michel
And basically no TWiT Live.
- Michel
Can you please specify how you put two disks into macBook Pro ?
- Petr Cervenka
Petr, you can buy caddies to replace the superdrive that will hold the second disk in. Since Leo hardly ever used his, it was a good option for him
- Johnny Worthington
Petr http://www.mcetech.com/optibay... The new MCE OptiBay Hard Drive was created for users who want as much hard drive space as possible inside their MacBook Pro, MacBook, PowerBook G4... and now the Mac mini. Period. The MCE OptiBay Hard Drive replaces your machine's internal SuperDrive with a high performance SATA hard drive up to 500GB... or get just the OptiBay Hard Drive enclosure and use your own 2.5" SATA hard drive.
- Rodzilla
Thanks for the audible tip. I have now go Dan Browns latest book worth $25 on my ipod for free!
- tony swales
Regarding the SSD, is it really needed to have 128GB as the system disk? Surely 64GB as system disk and 320 or 500GB as the other disk would be just as useful and fast but much cheaper. Does anyone know if Dell does a converter like this?
- tony swales
So great to see this whole group together. In terms of G4 hosting the TechTV video archives, they use Brightcove for their video hosting. My company uses them as well and we pay a hefty flat rate for unlimited transfers and storage. I presume that G4 has the same deal, so they can post as much as they want without incurring any additional expense or having to worry about traffic.
- Alex Cutadean
Fun and Free Online Games at RadioSox.com - http://www.radiosox.com/
Quite a fun portal
- Eric Florenzano
This just keeps getting funnier and weirder as you watch it http://www.youtube.com/watch...
  |
Penguin It's Cold Outside, Ilaria K, Kol Tregaskes and 9 other people liked this
This is my kind of absurdity.
- Fa La La La Lindsay
I want to win my school the computerized toast system.
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Notice how the calculator has a "stun" setting? :) Awesome
- Eric Florenzano
That is beyond awesome.
- Heather
I think this is a popular British comedy show...
- Chrimmus Tad
I love cDonald's Theorem
- Chrimmus Tad
The stuff in the pencil case is CRACKING ME UP!!!
- Chrimmus Tad
Blood Red Game - Play Fun and Free Online Games at RadioSox.com - http://radiosox.com/games...
Blood Red is a highly stylized and fun silhouette zombie survival game. I highly recommend it!
- Eric Florenzano
ericflo on Reddit programmers: What do you think of the different Web Frameworks for Python? - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"Good point, can't believe I forgot to mention that!"
- Eric Florenzano
A practical scalable distributed B-tree - http://www.hpl.hp.com/techrep...
Nagender Parimi, binic, Dmitry 'radiant' Volkov and 76 other people liked this
"Moreover, our algorithm is conceptually simple: we use transactions to manipulate B-tree nodes so that clients need not use complicated concurrency and locking protocols used in prior work. To execute these transactions quickly, we rely on three techniques: (1) We use optimistic concurrency control, so that B-tree nodes are not locked during transaction execution, only during commit. This well-known technique works well because B-trees have little contention on update. (2) We replicate inner nodes at clients. These replicas are lazy, and hence lightweight, and they are very helpful to re- duce client-server communication while traversing the B-tree. (3) We replicate version numbers of inner nodes across servers, so that clients can validate their transactions efficiently, without creating bottlenecks at the root node and other upper levels in the tree."
- Paul Buchheit
Paul, I think many of us are going to trust your opinion on this white paper. All Greek to me.
- Jon-Paul Bussoli
All I understand is that it is in my best interests to cheer for the way you access B-tree nodes in order to continue to enjoy friendfeed reliably. Go friendfeed algorithm go!
- Jon-Paul Bussoli
What, no comparison to BigTable?
- ⓞnor
@nor It's really not the same thing, unless somehow you're using a distributed B-tree on hash collision, however, if you're getting that many collisions, then the hash algorithm is probably wrong or your key width is too small. Then again, I really don't know what I'm talking about.
- Eric Florenzano
Curious as to what problem Paul is looking at... My default data toolkit these days would probably include sqlite for in-memory data, sharded bdb's for btrees that are too big for memory, and hbase/hypertable for a distributed store. I wonder where this fits in...
- DeWitt Clinton
Ok this is a really *nerdy* post! :*)
- Susan Beebe
DeWitt, I just thought that it looked like an interesting paper. As for the several solutions you mention, I don't know that any of them have distributed transactions (maybe bdb, but that doesn't really work).
- Paul Buchheit
B-Trees and Prof. Bayer http://wwwbayer.informatik.tu-... - would be interesting to know what he'd say, unfortunately he's retired a few years ago. Used to be fairly approachable in all matters B-Tree.
- Mustafa K. Isik
@DeWitt - no room for a traditional SQL based database except as an in memory database?
- Nick Lothian
we had designed and implemented distributed tree control, but transactions were considered "too much" for near-real-time, and they were already in protocol... the rest you know as xGSN boxes in GPRS/3G/HSDPA - dynamic routing for mobile packet networks. I'd left team in 2003...
- A.T.
@paul - I'll readily admit to being out of my depth, but it depends on what the definition of "distribution transaction" is. With bdb a combination of local transactions and guaranteed consistent replication you can approximate a distributed transaction at the cost of speed. See http://www.oracle.com/technol... and http://www.oracle.com/technol.... But those won't work across bdb shards.
- DeWitt Clinton
@paul - A table-based distributed store can do this via a lock on entity groups, where entity groups are defined by relationship formed by instances of similar models that belong to the same parent-based ancestry chain. This is how App Engine transactions work -- see http://code.google.com/appengi... and http://code.google.com/appengi.... Ping ryan for some background there. Not sure if hbase or hypertable support this via their api.
- DeWitt Clinton
@nlothian - I dunno. Offline maybe?
- DeWitt Clinton
DeWitt: have you ever successfully used BDB with millions of newly written entries and transaction support turned on? We kept getting transaction logs with millions of entries that were never consumed, so restarts would take hours as it replayed the logs. Configuring BDB to work for large databases is insanely esoteric to say the least, and it may be impossible to get it to work acceptably in some cases.
- Bret Taylor
@bret -- no, definitely not with large databases. We used bdb's heavily at my last company, though. Aggressive sharding is the key if you want to support either transactions or replication, which matches intuition about how it is implemented.
- DeWitt Clinton
But your comment about millions of entries makes me wonder about which data is getting written to which place. I suspect a lot of problems like this end up with the bulk of the data being written transactionless + replicated to a table-based store (or a transactionless bdb), and only a small subset of the data gets transaction support. So multiple datastores. But you guys know this better than I do, so why am I rambling? : )
- DeWitt Clinton
DeWitt, you can also look into all the trouble that Gaia had with bdb - I simply wouldn't trust any fancy bdb functionality.
- Paul Buchheit
Also, AppEngine transactions are limited to a single "entity group", which I assume means a single BigTable tablet. Essentially, they solved distributed transactions by not having them -- all transactions must be local to a single tablet. From the docs: "Every entity belongs to an entity group, a set of one or more entities that can be manipulated in a single transaction. Entity group relationships tell App Engine to store several entities in the same part of the distributed network."
- Paul Buchheit
@paul - yup, that's the trade-off. Entity groups ensure locality, locality makes transactions fast(er). Same old lever problem -- speed of consistency vs. scope of the transactions.
- DeWitt Clinton
DeWitt, there's nothing wrong with having local transactions -- I'm just pointing out that they aren't distributed transactions.
- Paul Buchheit
Point taken. I got way off-topic regarding your original post anyway.
- DeWitt Clinton
The design seems reasonable. The only part that is under-specified is the way they switch from a master node to a slave. I'm curious why they don't use transactions to maintain replicas but instead rely on some unspecified master/slave replication scheme.
- Private Sanjeev
ericflo on Reddit programmers: What do you think of the different Web Frameworks for Python? - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"Django will be the easiest to start out with if you're new to this stuff, because it has the largest developer community and the most complete documentation. It's also the highest-level framework, providing most of the bits in one place and with the most cohesion. It does make a lot of decisions though on which components you should use, and making alternative choices can be tricky. Pylons will let you customize things a lot more to your liking. It's essentially an a-la-carte framework and will suit you well if you like to have control over all parts of the stack. The downside is that there's less documentation, depending on your choice of components. Building on Pylons is TurboGears, which has taken that a-la-carte base and has chosen what they feel to be the "best-of-class" components that Python has to offer. They've got a reputation for changing their minds on which components are the best, but at this point their decisions are fairly set (and the decisions they've made are..."
- Eric Florenzano
Increasingly tempted by the idea of accessing the database over HTTP, ala http://code.nytimes.com/project...
Jordi Rivero liked this
That's what we do at Mochi Media
- Eric Florenzano
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Christian Hollingsworth, Haris bin Ali, Nicholas James and 25 other people liked this
Nice. I'm home this afternoon and get to see it live for the first time.
- Amyloo
ditto. no sound either.
- Christopher Harris
We're getting there
- Brett Slatkin
The test pattern looks good so far.
- Matt Mastracci
We are starting shortly.
- Robert Scoble
whoooo! shortly!
- Christopher Harris
Please stand by...
- Robert Scoble
It's on
- Matt Mastracci
Cool
- Ken Sheppardson
Rackspace is wasting their money, they could reach 175000 geeks by advertising on TWiT
- Mark
first time i'm seeing the new video :)
- Christopher Harris
Mark: who said we won't do that too?
- Robert Scoble
Alright... need to pull up Dave's Twitter stream in another window...
- Ken Sheppardson
look at that chizzled jaw, lucky guy
- Mark
dave winer?
- Christopher Harris
Considering we're watching video sucked over Skype and rebroadcast over ustream, the quality is pretty good.
- Matt Mastracci
"Fast RSS." I liek that generic term. Harkens to fast zombies.
- Amyloo
Fast feeds - like fast food? Will there be a Slow Feeds movement?
- Kevin Marks
Polling sucks.
- Bob Wyman
Bob: can you explain why you think that?
- Robert Scoble
And how that fits into this conversation?
- Robert Scoble
Knowing "what's new" is pretty important - as important as "something is new".
- Matt Mastracci
Scoble: It's inefficient.
- Eric Florenzano
Aha I'm awake in time for the gillmor gang.
- Hilary Talbot
polling wastes resources on both sides of the connection for the majority of the time when there are no new items
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Hey Hil.
- Amyloo
hey Amy :)
- Hilary Talbot
Scoble: Think of the browser. V1 of friendfeed was polling. You had to ask (by refreshing) whether there was new content. This version of friendfeed is push, where FriendFeed tells you when there's new stuff.
- Eric Florenzano
bear: right, so is Pubsubhubbub doing it right or wrong? And, is there a better way?
- Robert Scoble
the key part is that it's sending the content along with the item - this dramatically reduces client complexity
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
By "server", he means "hub", re: doing more work. The blogs do as much work as they do today (ie: ping the hub).
- Matt Mastracci
Hubbub is doing it right IMO
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Scoble: Just remember everything I said to you 5 or 6 years ago when explaining why PubSub was useful and why "one-day" people would realize that real-time would be good. Nothing has changed.
- Bob Wyman
Bob: yup, I'm slow. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert: You need to get more "real-time"!
- Bob Wyman
Right - this is the HTTP/HTML version of what PubSub has been doing for XMPP
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Absolutely. No question. Yes.
- Bob Wyman
Yeah. It could do twitter.
- Matt Mastracci
correction - I'm not the CTO - I don't think Johann would like me taking his job :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Oh, sorry.
- Robert Scoble
Is it possible Bill Gates had it right, Business at the speed of Thought? We want content and information as we think it.
- Owen Greaves
I get confused. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Someone ask Recordon if they've figured out how all this can relate to activitystrea.ms, the streams protocol Facebook, MySpace, and others support
- Jesse Stay
no worries :) I like the promotion
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
which is Atom based
- Jesse Stay
You'd have a hard time doing twitter over rssCloud - you'd have to be pulling the last 30 twitter messages after each tweet. That's 30x the traffic.
- Matt Mastracci
If you were designing this sort of system from scratch today, I can't imagine that you'd take a polling approach. It's legacy left over from page-based web browsing.
- Ken Sheppardson
This is a great fit for activitystrea.ms
- Kevin Marks
Kevin, that's what I was thinking - both being Atom, they ought to fit together well. I'd love to see a use-case in action.
- Jesse Stay
Yeah, activitystrea.ms works easily with Atom which can then be made real time using PSHB.
- David Recordon
robert - easily - Seesmic ran in the cloud until we finally needed more memory for the Java side
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
polling is useful as a fallback and to pull history when subscribing for the first time.
- Kevin Marks
Can we all just agree on "Hubbub" vs "PuSH" or saying "pubsubhubbub" every time... once and for all? :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd love to see Brett's opinion on why Twitter won't implement PSHB
- Jesse Stay
It requires a big player just to have the operations staff to maintain a high volume site
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse: I was just about to ask that.
- Robert Scoble
Tornado uses epoll and it's been used by Twisted Python
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
but if it's distributed - it would scale out anyway
- Ankush Narula
Kqueue too :) (Well, Twisted does support that, Tornado doesn't yet)
- Eric Florenzano
Twitter won't implement it because they want to be the hub, and they want everybody to use their own, proprietary APIS
- Ken Sheppardson
Ankush - correct - until you get "scobled" (i.e. when you have one user with a huge number of followers)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Mike: and wait until you get onto Oprah! :-)
- Robert Scoble
Sounds like DNS
- Rob La Gesse
Ken, I understand the Hub part, but I can't help wonder if they just don't understand how it could help their API. They could use their own hub if they wanted.
- Jesse Stay
Are Hubbub and rssCloud the same thing? (...he asks, feigning innocence)
- Ken Sheppardson
The PSHB protocol is "simple" and fairly trivial implementations are possible. But, *any* single hub that monitors millions of feeds is going to need care and feeding. There will be *very large* hubs and their will be tiny hubs and they can all work together happily.
- Bob Wyman
I'd love to know if Brett or Brad have reached out to Twitter in any way
- Jesse Stay
Ken: no. Similar efforts but come from different histories. RSSCloud comes from Dave Winer's side of the house.
- Robert Scoble
robert - oh hell no - that's what Loic is good at
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
the distinction is that PubSubHubbub sends the fat pings with content in; rssCloud sends an update notification and still needs a poll
- Kevin Marks
Mike: actually Loic has someone speaking at LeWeb that has a bigger global brand than Oprah.
- Robert Scoble
robert - yea, I haven't found out who yet - i'm curioius about that
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
It's Dr. Laura isn't it Robert?
- Jesse Stay
what happens if a hub dies?
- Ankush Narula
Jesse: way bigger than that.
- Robert Scoble
Yeah, Twitter wants other people to adopt their streaming API, if anything... they don't want to be yet another hub in some network
- Ken Sheppardson
rssCloud causes "thundering herd" problem on source blogs. The result can be a complete swamping of smaller publishers. This was the core "mistake" in rssCloud when it was first done 7 years ago and it remains the core error in that protocol.
- Bob Wyman
How about working with the OMB guys? Why PSHB vs. OMB protocol?
- Jesse Stay
yea, Twitter got burned with XMPP early in their engineering life so have a bad taste for it - they got burned not because of XMPP but because of other non-tech reasons
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse - IMO OMB should allow for atom payloads - then it could become part of PSHB by default
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
OMB could generate activitystrea.ms + PSHB too
- Kevin Marks
Thundering herd would be a *huge* problem if Twitter were to get decentralized. Oprah has 1MM+ followers - that's 20 tweets * 1k * 1MM subscribers on each tweet.
- Matt Mastracci
Celine Dion probably has a bigger brand than Opera, and she speaks French (ADD kicking in here)
- Jesse Stay
Bear, interesting
- Jesse Stay
Bear: The issue wasn't XMPP the protocol, it was the software they used to implement it, the systems they built to feed it, the way they configured it, etc... XMPP isn't, a priori, any worse than the alternatives.
- Bob Wyman
OMB made a big mistake when they created their own protocol instead of just extending ATOM, IMO
- Eric Florenzano
Bob, yes - you said it much better than I did - I was trying to say just that
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
There was also the on again/off again relationship Twitter had with Gnip that confused the whole XMPP situation
- Ken Sheppardson
Yeah, I don't really see what OMB gets you these days given activitystrea.ms, Hubbub, etc. Seems redundant.
- Ken Sheppardson
We have an interesting interview with Gnip's founder on Building43 right now, by the way.
- Robert Scoble
@Matt: Right. with rssCloud, publishing becomes massively expensive if you get popular. rssCloud will, on the other hand, work well for people who aren't very popular and don't have many people interested in what they publish. For those folk, rssCloud is a potential solution... :-)
- Bob Wyman
Gnip link: http://www.building43.com/videos...
- Rob La Gesse
oh cool - Gnip has some very cool tech behind the scenes - i'll have to queue that video
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Ken - now that identi.ca/status.net has plugins - nothing prevents someone from wiring up a PHSB hook to the internal message queue for identi.ca/status.net
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
bear: You know if anybody's pushing activitystrea.ms out of a Laconica instance yet?
- Ken Sheppardson
I imagine that hooking up the twitter firehose to PSHB would be really easy and cheap, but it would likely violate the twitter firehose license.
- Matt Mastracci
kevin - yea, one of the most fun projects I did was to hook a sms/xmpp bot to a phone switch - it allowed you to control your vm/phone from xmpp and gave a lot of benefit
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
EVERYTHING cool violates the Twitter firehose rules :)
- Rob La Gesse
ken - there is some private branch work being done on that - but they are working on getting 0.9 out the door first
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@bear great - we should get you hooked up to the Ribbit APIs for telephony stuff and Seesmic
- Kevin Marks
Rob: FriendFeed figured out a way around the stupid Twitter rules.
- Robert Scoble
I think just knowing that Twitter offers a firehose violates it's terms of use.
- Ken Sheppardson
@kevin i would love to review them and make a pitch to the team about them
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert - FF didn't try to share the firehose.
- Rob La Gesse
$50M for FF engineering and architecture team?
- Ankush Narula
@bear great, email me kevinmarks@gmail.com
- Kevin Marks
..and FF was able to position themselves as a Twitter client, in a sense, by pushing traffic to Twitter. They weren't just extracting value from the system. Plus, they probably asked nicely and sent cupcakes.
- Ken Sheppardson
Rob: sure it did, but it only shares it for people who have logged into FriendFeed.
- Robert Scoble
Rob: Twitter's rules are "don't create a shadow Twitter." As long as you don't try to do that they probably will let you play.
- Robert Scoble
Rob: of course every geek in the world wants to create a shadow Twitter. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Rob - once they produced the v2 api - then they started sharing the full stream. Until that point it was a partial stream
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert - my point is - at the same time Twitter couldn't support more use of the firehose, they demanded the firehose NOT be re-broadcast. They don;t allow one to become a "node" of the stream. Which seems silly.
- Rob La Gesse
That's not entirely correct, Robert. Their other rule is "don't try to monetize something firehose based that we may at some point in the indefinite future think about monetizing ourselves"
- Ken Sheppardson
On PubSubHubbub and rssCloud ... (http://brad.livejournal.com/2405147...)
- David Recordon
Ken: we're saying the same thing. :-)
- Robert Scoble
decentralization!!!
- Ankush Narula
Rob: FriendFeed rebroadcasts the Twitter firehose, but only for the people who have signed onto FriendFeed.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Ah... right... "shadow Twitter". Gotcha :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert/Ken - I can understand why Twitter doesn't want downstream nodes passing on the stream - they lose access control
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert - they are not. They are broadcasting back a VERY small portion of that stream, at best.
- Rob La Gesse
I think technically rebroadcasting is illegal according to the Twitter developer terms for the firehose
- Jesse Stay
Mike me too! Rob: it is a small portion because only a few hundred thousand people have signed onto FriendFeed, but if you could get everyone on Twitter to sign up here you'd see the entire firehose.
- Robert Scoble
In so far as fire-walled end-user applications can't receive pings, PSHB protocol mainly helps publishers and server-side aggregators like Google reader. Since this "last mile problem" is out-of-scope for PSHB, we can't yet expect any client explosion the likes that Twitter has seen. Any thoughts from the panel on the last mile problem? What would have to be done so that Tweetie, Seesmic, etc, might benefit from PSHB?
- Mason Lee
Robert - I disagree. I think if that happened the hose would be shut off.
- Rob La Gesse
The protocol comparison document is at: http://code.google.com/p...
- Bob Wyman
Well, I don't think it's just rebroadcasting... there's also an issue around derivative/aggregations based on the firehose, firehose-based analytics, etc
- Ken Sheppardson
Why isn't Twitter ever a part of these conversations? I'd love to hear their viewpoint. You should get Ryan Sarver on one of these episodes.
- Jesse Stay
I believe they have an open invite :)
- Rob La Gesse
real time chat across different media and internet access levels - you pick what size/speed your want your conversation to happen at
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
The last time I saw Twitter participate in this sort of conversation was at BearHugCamp last fall.... and I suspect that left a bad taste in their mouth :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
I'm curious if anyone invited them
- Jesse Stay
But you can't do global Track across a federated system
- Ken Sheppardson
But Kevin, what about tracking the firehose?
- Cliff Gerrish
*somebody* needs to aggregate everything if you want to search across everything
- Ken Sheppardson
*drink* someone mentioned Track
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Mason If PSHB handles the backbone problem of providing fan-in and then fan-out for millions of feeds, it makes it massively easier for people to focus on building innovative front ends. There isn't much opportunity for creativity in solving the backend problem -- that's why it is reasonable to build something like PSHB today. The really fun problems are the things that should be relying on PSHB as a source of feeds. Let PSHB do the boring backend problem -- you should focus on innovative clients.
- Bob Wyman
drink
- Rob La Gesse
or you need to delegate/distribute searches out to the hubs
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: that's a good point.
- Robert Scoble
I need a drink!
- Robert Scoble
Robert - grab some formula!
- Rob La Gesse
But, "follow" isn't enough. We also need TRACK!
- Bob Wyman
Or that other kind of milk.
- Amyloo
There are certainly benefits to distribution and redundancy, but there *are* benefits to centralization.
- Ken Sheppardson
Kevin has the key point, getting what you want... Discovery of what you want would be next... these hubs will be learning patterns of what is wanted.
- Ben Hedrington
Or will it be too decentralized?
- Ben Hedrington
Discovery on a federated/partitioned system is problematic.
- Ken Sheppardson
but PSHB isn't for track, as you have said eloquently on the mailing list, Bob
- Kevin Marks
live filtering?
- Ankush Narula
So discovery is the next frontier?
- Ben Hedrington
track remains a problem even with PSHB *but* using PSHB allows you to do a track across more than just one source
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert: chat room other than here?
- David Stratton
discovery happens the same way you discover new blogs IMO
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Kevin: But, if I've got PSHB aggregating the feeds, it makes it really, really easy for me to build a server that *does* do track on the stuff that PSHB feeds to me.
- Bob Wyman
Discovery has always been the new frontier
- Francine Hardaway
David: this is the chat room.
- Robert Scoble
Hubbub allows some central search provider subscribe to everything, then people can subscribe to the search provider... but there just has to be some way to discover/broadcast which feeds are out there... this is an issue with SUP, btw... discovery. You have to know a feed's SUP ID first.
- Ken Sheppardson
okay, thought so
- David Stratton
I guess I wasn't being 2010 enough. This is the chat feed. :-)
- Robert Scoble
So you mean if you want to do research or market research you will pay
- Francine Hardaway
@bobwyman sure, but that isn't the usecase Robert says he wants; he needs a mass crawl for that
- Kevin Marks
Francine: and restaurants will pay $10 a month to have their own Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
I remember the Microsoft guy at BearHugCamp last fall was wondering why anybody would ever want to build a Track system, rather than just leave it to Google...
- Ken Sheppardson
I'm a set of keywords, I'm looking for a set of keywords
- Arnie Klaus
Of course, Twitter will probably offer http://www.sushirestaurant.com/twitter at some point too.
- Robert Scoble
Live regexp for big pipes sounds like a $1Billion dollar business.
- Cliff Gerrish
we've been doing this stuff with MOM in financial market feeds - topic subscriptions, channels, etc.
- Ankush Narula
@kevin, I dont' see the distinction. I can do track based on all that flows through the PSHB hubs. That's semantically equivelant to doing a "mass crawl"
- Bob Wyman
And what will they really do with it? That they don't do now
- Francine Hardaway
You can have one aggregator that controls the entire feed, or you can set the feed loose and let several companies aggregate from those. Same data, no single point of control.
- Rob La Gesse
Francine: I can see a lot you would do if you had your own branded Twitter clone.
- Robert Scoble
Every Hubbub hub could/should provide a local firehose to anyone who wants it.
- Ken Sheppardson
distributed track is possible. Centralization only makes it easier.
- Bob Wyman
Complex events processing...
- Cliff Gerrish
@bobwyman only if all the hubs do collation for you, surely? Content-based filtering inot feeds on the hubs too
- Kevin Marks
Bob: and even centralization isn't THAT easy. Twitter only shows you the last few days on http://search.twitter.com
- Robert Scoble
How similar to JustSignal?
- Francine Hardaway
This is similar to tracking multiple market centers (pools of liquidity) to get the right trade.
- Cliff Gerrish
John Kalucki, a SQLstream co-founder, has been at Twitter for about 18 month now working on... wait for it... their firehose API.
- Ken Sheppardson
Cliff: Now I understand
- Francine Hardaway
the fun happens when PSHB allows for disparate streams to have firehoses - then all the search/filter geeks can do their thing
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Scoble: "history" is irrelevant to any system doing a real-time track. All you care about is the future -- not the past. Past is for "retrospective search," "track" is about "prospective search".
- Bob Wyman
The future: filter, search, discover, curate
- Francine Hardaway
So Twitter is trying to become FriendFeed?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Sure we do. It's called TwitterSpy. Dustin Sallings built it two years ago
- Ken Sheppardson
others have built the same thing...
- Ken Sheppardson
Mike - so is Facebook :)
- Rob La Gesse
Bob: I want both.
- Robert Scoble
@bobwyman disagree - you need both flow and past; they complement one another
- Kevin Marks
bear: I think if you look at some of the newer Twitter web clients, they're basically a FriendFeed-like UI on top of the Twitter message bus.
- Ken Sheppardson
twitter retweet is going to make a lot of folks angry - not that I have any inside info or anything
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
bear: hah!
- Robert Scoble
@Scoble: Of course you want both. I would never question that. The two halves of search compliment each other. Only retrospective or only prospective is only half the solution. Most of the systems you've ever used have only solved half the problem .
- Bob Wyman
bear: Justine Bateman's already mad about it. :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Bob: agreed. FriendFeed came close to solving both.
- Robert Scoble
London here :)
- Bastian
New York here...
- Bob Wyman
hawaii here
- Arnie Klaus
Texas
- Rob La Gesse
Philadelphia
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
NYC
- Ankush Narula
Just got a 503 on Twitter... we breaking it real time?
- Ben Hedrington
Washington State
- Steve Hammer
San Francisco (not Silcon Valley ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
canberra, Aust
- Hilary Talbot
Dana Point, CA here
- michael sean wright
nice thing we started here
- Bastian
Wow - what a nice distribution!
- Rob La Gesse
Ben - no - Twitter's auth API is having trouble right now - my monitoring alerts are going berserk about it
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Minneapolis, MN
- Ben Hedrington
RSS!!
- michael sean wright
Arizona
- Francine Hardaway
awww...RSS :-)
- Jodi Church
RSS, welcome to the world.
- Bob Wyman
RSS lives!
- Mason Lee
Don;t know how Scoble had a cute baby :) I mean, Maryam is cute, but Robert? Hee
- Rob La Gesse
LOL @RSS...
- Karoli
That gives new meaning to RSS stream.
- Steve Hammer
when he farts - do you call it an rssCloud? ;-)
- Ankush Narula
welcome to the intertubes RSS!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@ankush LOL!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Rocky looks so cute petting him
- Francine Hardaway
Ankush, FTW!
- Karoli
Careful - Rocky looks hungry!
- Rob La Gesse
loved the mp3 of the sounds of RSS greeting the world
- michael sean wright
Your saving it all for his great, great grandkids!
- Arnie Klaus
I need to run! :)
- David Recordon
Thanks man ttyl
- Brett Slatkin
lots of spamming yesterday
- Karoli
it was a classic phishing scam
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Good to hear about http://superfeedr.com!
- Julien
2 different things
- Karoli
If you were using SocialToo you wouldn't have gotten those messages :-)
- Jesse Stay
they're able to insert messages into your stream when you don't follow via the Twitter API
- Karoli
PSHB is not really decentralized from the client's perspective-- there will be one front end: google.
- Mason Lee
Diversity is important in *any* ecosystem...
- Bob Wyman
It's funny that I'm getting a fail whale on the Gillmor Gang.
- Robert Scoble
it's the same with your computer network - all the same server means you are pwned by a single attack
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Steve Gillmor needs his Twitter anti-virus (SocialToo) :-)
- Jesse Stay
DNS
- Eric Florenzano
Gmail
- Ken Sheppardson
Commonality in protocols -- diversity in servers.
- Bob Wyman
oh, wait...
- Ken Sheppardson
Twitter is down hard now.
- Robert Scoble
Ok, really need to go now! Thanks and talk to everyone later.
- David Recordon
I'm gettting 503 server error.
- Robert Scoble
everyone gets nervous when we add a layer on top of the web stack...
- Ankush Narula
yea, i'm getting hard errors from Twitter in my server alerts
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Ahh, it's back.
- Robert Scoble
One day Twitter just won't come back.
- Ken Sheppardson
i was, but it's working again for me
- Jodi Church
Yeah - API's having issues too
- Jesse Stay
Still 503 here
- Ken Sheppardson
@ken - then, we will all sleep.
- Rob La Gesse
Ken: Not after it has raise $100m
- Francine Hardaway
Its google wave getting ready to go live.
- Arnie Klaus
it's both
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Annie: Hah!
- Ben Hedrington
The problem comes in ownership of the resource. In the decentralized web, we share the pipes in neutral fashion. But, "commercial" people tend to violate net neutrality rules. Like Twitter deciding who can and cannot read their data. That is a net neutrality failure...
- Bob Wyman
Only portrayed that way by the FSF/GPL extremists
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Love the sound of Skype in the morning
- Bastian
@bear: We should profit by competing on the service we provide users -- not on how much of user's data we have captured.
- Bob Wyman
Bob: and what about Facebook's front door being completely locked?
- Ankush Narula
@bob agree 100%
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Is he saying Dave Winer's naive? :-)
- Jesse Stay
Bob: agree. Jesse: I think so.
- Robert Scoble
He's saying light pinging won't work.
- Cliff Gerrish
*smack*
- Rob La Gesse
@Ankush I'm seriously hoping that the new hires at Facebook help steer them away from the dark side :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
So to argue in Twitter and Facebook's defense, they're not just a neutral pass through. They're adding value to the system, and they'd argue that they shouldn't be "forced" to just let that walk out the back door.
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd like to see Dave Winer's response to that
- Jesse Stay
@ankush , Folk don't always agree with me. But, I believe that users should control access to their data and they should make decisions based on what is in their interest -- the people who run the services that people use should *not* be the ones deciding what access controls will be enforced.
- Bob Wyman
so do you see there being an APi to Google's crawl for use in this, Bob?
- Kevin Marks
Because of stampeding herds?
- Mason Lee
I'm a big +1 on the fat ping
- Eric Florenzano
Jesse: I'm sure you will (see the response)
- Ken Sheppardson
Mike: if Facebook doesn't get its public service act together they will see themselves becoming the next MySpace. In the early adopter audience it already is.
- Robert Scoble
Bob/Mike - i'm in full agreement - but when you're building a service that has zero monetization (twitter) - what else can your valuation be based on other than your core data assets?
- Ankush Narula
I think Facebook is getting it together. Connect is their answer, but they're also slowly opening up search as well.
- Jesse Stay
Of course they have FriendFeed now to keep the early adopters inside the Facebook tent, but there's a lot more early adopters on Twitter than here.
- Robert Scoble
@robert agree completely - I had already zero'd out my profile and moved to FF - but the FF folks moving to FB made me give them more time
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bob/Mike - as for FB - I hope so too
- Ankush Narula
Of course, you are better off doing it on Rackspace :)
- Rob La Gesse
Jesse: I agree with you.
- Robert Scoble
Don't build services that have no legitimate path to profit. In that case, you should be building protocols whose costs can be shared by the community and then build your business by creating the best tools for using the protocol.
- Bob Wyman
popping in to listen to RL Gilmor Gang stream #gillmorgang
- Del_
Bob - Sounds ideal - but knowing the history of Twitter - I suspect they were much more concerned about uptime rather than the public good
- Ankush Narula
robert and rob: speaking of using Rackspace, Cartus put my contract on hold while they figure out their needs
- David Stratton
"Has *2* Bs"?? Doesn't it have, like 12?
- Ken Sheppardson
pub sub hub bub (five bs)
- Robert Scoble
activitystrea.ms is yet another endpoint that can be connected to PSHB
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Ankush I don't know who was thinking what. But, I do know that those who focus on "public good" typically write protocols, not walled garden closed sites.
- Bob Wyman
Sidewiki is so not a wiki
- Ken Sheppardson
I think it's actually "pub/sub hubbub" - I'm usually wrong though
- Jesse Stay
I want Sidewiki to have Wave support
- Jesse Stay
Bob - fair enough :-)
- Ankush Narula
Locking a new "feature" into relying on me installing a toolbar is a GREAT way to make sure I don;t play with it.
- Rob La Gesse
ooh - I hear tension in the realms of Google :-)
- Jesse Stay
you would have to gather a set of wave changesets and then push that out via PSHB
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Rob: I'm sure they'll support it in Chrome too, eventually
- Ken Sheppardson
It's PSHB vs. Wave - who will win? :-)
- Jesse Stay
you guys are nuts :-)
- Loic Le Meur
Wave *IS* XMPP
- Ken Sheppardson
Loic is in the building :)
- Rob La Gesse
Loic it's Celine Dion isn't it? :-) (how's it going?)
- Jesse Stay
nope
- Loic Le Meur
Where's my Wave invitation?
- Francine Hardaway
The Wave protocol is just an extension of XMPP
- Ken Sheppardson
good try though
- Loic Le Meur
PSHB and Wave don't compete. They do different things. Othogonal. PSHB does *nothing* in the last-mile user interface space.
- Bob Wyman
Loic: thanks for filling infor me.
- Robert Scoble
dang - I'm going to figure it out one of these days
- Jesse Stay
Francine: don't worry, I don't have one either.
- Robert Scoble
oh robert, no thank YOU
- Loic Le Meur
XMPP is also nice in that completes the last mile.
- Mason Lee
I had a blast being you for 24 hours
- Loic Le Meur
Seemed like a good conference watching it on my iPhone.
- Robert Scoble
XMPP is great for "last mile" as well as for reasonable number of persistent connections on teh backend.
- Bob Wyman
Great conversation guys!
- Ben Hedrington
I LOVED Tony Robbins, I was expecting to hate him so that was a pleasant surprise, best speaker I have ever seen. Such a stage presence. amazing/
- Loic Le Meur
Great show, everyone
- Rob La Gesse
great show!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Enjoyed listening/watching
- Ankush Narula
Great discussion here. Thanks Brett, et al.
- Mason Lee
That was very good - thanks Steve
- Jesse Stay
thank you
- Hilary Talbot
/me is wondering why everyone thanks everyone
- Loic Le Meur
@Loic It's because we americans are so polite!
- Bob Wyman
Thanks, Loic, I was wondering that myself.
- Mason Lee
Errr... That was a joke.
- Bob Wyman
LOL
- Loic Le Meur
social networking
- Arnie Klaus
don't get me started
- Loic Le Meur
Good show Steve, thank you all for making the time.
- David Stratton
You rang?
- John Kalucki
Hey John! When are you going to be on the Gillmor Gang?
- Jesse Stay
quick - get Steve back on video - Twitter is here!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
John is in charge of Twitter's Streaming API, FYI
- Jesse Stay
I totally didn't realize John had a FriendFeed account - awesome
- Jesse Stay
I skimmed most of the conversation. I didn't see any explicit questions to respond to, or that haven't been addressed on the twitter-dev list about pubhub...
- John Kalucki
have you looked at PubSubHubbub John?
- Kevin Marks
As far as the Streaming API rules, we'll work on them. The user TOS and API rules just went out last week.
- John Kalucki
John - except that a lot of the folks who were asking don't regularly read the twitter dev list :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Let me find the link...
- John Kalucki
Heh :-)
- Jesse Stay
I'd just like to be able to standardize my code and not have to re-write for every new social network out there.
- Jesse Stay
But we've had this conversation. :-)
- Jesse Stay
how about activitystrea.ms support, John? You going to write the shim or do we have to?
- Kevin Marks
Activitystrea.ms support seems unlikely. A shim would probably be seen as syndication.
- John Kalucki
Overall, the direction is towards exposing more data types, more predicate types, and supporting more use cases. Format and protocol support, while making developer's lives easier, isn't as high priority as some of the proposed features we're considering.
- John Kalucki
That's too bad John - hard to be the "pulse of the internet" if you're not supporting open standards
- Jesse Stay
Hey JK! Welcome! How goes?
- Ken Sheppardson
Hey Ken. It goes. It goes.
- John Kalucki
Looks like we still have 27 viewers for a test pattern...
- Cliff Gerrish
I missed this shooooooot! need regular calendared events so i can add you guys to my schedule! :)
- Susan Beebe
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