opengoverment_#bct09

You should note that they are No10 petitions, so you are only writing to the PM. So in a sense the constituency is irrelevant. - Chris Rimmer

I know that Tom Steinberg of MySociety has defended the site by saying that he believes getting people involved even in a small way is a step in the right direction. To be fair, the road pricing petition did make a difference. Other than that though, it mostly acts as a way for the PM to spam you with a "thanks for your petition, but here's why I'm ignoring it" email. - Chris Rimmer

What's a fair number of signatures for a petition to be considered passed/ rejected? Is it still a decision based on the personal judgement of a few at No 10 at the end of the day? - Kedar Iyer

Seems they only take notice if you can get a million people! - Chris Rimmer

@chris I agree that getting people involved even if its in a small way... but I do find the "this is why we're ignoring you" emails somewhat de-motivational... Re road pricing, there is a fair amount of evidence that this idea was never going to be implemented... seems to be a reoccuring tactic to table several options (through leaks or whatever) and see which draws the most flak... - Marcus Povey

By a petition being split by constituency you put the emphasis both on your MP and Number 10. If you link it to mysociety website reporting on MP records and actions this becomes not just a way to see what your MP is doing, but commenting on what actions you would like them to take. You can also see local support rather than national, which could motivate local discussion - Rich

I really really hope so, many have been invited but generally I have had polite refusals... Libdems seemed quite accommodating and hopefully one of their councillors will be along, Labour and Conservatives can't make it themselves but have passed it on to their colleagues. Others including the more applicable NGOs have not responded... currently I think we suffer from being a bit of an unknown quantity :) - Marcus Povey

The discussions from today and Sunday may help get their attention to further the conversation, hopefully. - Kedar Iyer

I really hope so, in the end it IS the field for everyone to express their point of view as well... - Sylwia Presley

More than that, I expect more than a few interesting projects will come out of this weekend... get the snowball rolling :) - Marcus Povey

It will, I'm sure. Bon Courage! :) I'm dropping on my keyboard, it's 12.30am here. Thank you all for this stimulating virtual BarCamp. I'll be back to check on the stream later. - Kedar Iyer

@sylwia The key idea behind democracy is balance - no one power/interest block should have overwhelming control. This makes this inefficient but then that's how democracy should be... means nobody can become tyrannical. - Marcus Povey

agree... - Sylwia Presley

Starting bottom up maybe? Electing local leaders that demonstrate the values needed for new governance? - Kedar Iyer

or people who understand the ethics of the web and the mechanisms behind it?;) - Sylwia Presley

Bottom up, yes. Perhaps though, circumventing the idea altogether? I don't need to be governed... could having the information and tools at our fingertips lead to greater engagement and democracy? I'm just reminded of the truism: Whoever you vote for, the government gets in. Its a monopoly on power, and a monopoly is always bad... - Marcus Povey

@sylwia .. then you just elevate another group of elites up in their place... power should be distributed, and tools and information made available to everyone for that purpose. Witness the good work mysociety are doing, also scoresonthedoors etc - Marcus Povey

I see, thx:) - Sylwia Presley

The fundamental problem with government policy is 1 rule for all, but the technology offers personalization. So, if we can change governance to make it personal for every citizen/ resident then Marcus' point about self governance comes into effect. - Kedar Iyer

Hello All. This is Richard. I met Marcus at Oxford Geek night. I study communication and development, worked for NGOs, participation, a newbie geek wannabee. I like playing pool. I hope OK to introduce myself here as it seems the active thread? - Rich

How does technology offer personalisation of governance? Can you explain? Do you mean more local governments, or no government? or .... - Rich

Hi Richard, glad to have you join. This discussion is getting more interesting. :) In my earlier comment I was responding to Marcus' idea of, do I need to be governed? I was highlighting the contrast between governance and technology in that, the former does not allow for personalization, but the latter does. So, how can we use technology to reform governance so that it is no longer one rule for all, but can embrace individual governance of some sort. - Kedar Iyer

Hi Rich, good to see you on here! I do wonder tho... even if it's individually personalised, its still government governing you? - Marcus Povey

if governance is personalised, is it governance at all? It is hard to see how you can personalise things such as Human rights, amount of tax to pay, etc. But I can see stronger more localised governance being helped by technology? also any type of governance having more 'input' from more people. - Rich

Not just input - scrutiny and accountability (which comes from the former) - Marcus Povey

exactly. and accountability would have teeth if citizens could be more active in governance, have time to be more active, want to be more active, know how to be more active - Rich

Which brings us back to having the tools and the data... - Marcus Povey

I think it is also the opportunity. I think people have less and less time to actually participate in government, even activism. That is why activism has in some way become professional and paid career. Tools and data are essential, but so is opportunity, and incentive that something will actual change. A system that makes participation natural rather than a massive effort except for ever few years I tick the box of the the person I dislike the least :) - Rich

The first step towards personalization is in governance becoming more participatory i.e. citizens becoming more active as Rich put it. Decision making can be crowd sourced by laying the facts for people to comment and critique per Marcus. - Kedar Iyer

I agree with Rich. An incentive to participate is needed, the promise of change isn't always enough for the masses. - Kedar Iyer

Having said that though, examples of change, however small can help more people see the benefits of their contribution. - Kedar Iyer

I think to a certain extent in the UK the critique is already there, except there is little trust in the critique, or what is being critiqued. The critique is also sometimes empty - yes I know this is shit, but it is too hard to change. At the moment in the UK, the incentive to compete is stronger than anything else - for housing, money, jobs, food, status, voice, political opinion,... more... - Rich

Glad you bring up collaboration as the new way forward over competition. Governance in isolation cannot change, as businesses and the economy start to remodel around collaboration governance for such a system will incentivize participation over passive consumption. - Kedar Iyer

It would be nice to see more people taking control and DIYing it. Its easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission afterall, and who are the government if not just people... I like things like Brighton's peer to pier, or FixMyStreet as examples of really useful tools and infrastructure set up by individual innovators - Marcus Povey

OK, remember when we talked about it during BarcampUAE - more understanding is needed from users, incl government - but if they learn the rules, will they actually follow them? And what is there to stop restrictions? - Sylwia Presley

I agree with Marcus - but is it always paranoia, or using paranoia as excuse? (ah, I start speculating already:/) - Sylwia Presley

Distribution and transparency. The system is distributed with many eyes checking things over and cross-referencing - sure there can still be abuse, but the wiggle room is somewhat less. - Marcus Povey

Yes, distribution is a good way forward as it decentralizes control and flattens traditional hierarchy in governance. - Kedar Iyer

how is it in your country, Kedar? is state ready to let it go and stop controlling (social) media? - Sylwia Presley

UAE is a bad example, but I can speak for the change happening in India. Even in a country which suffers from corrupt govt. officials, there is progress, one politician at a time. Shashi Tharoor, Minister of External Affairs is setting an example by listening to the people of his constituency and bringing transparency into his department. - Kedar Iyer

he must be facing criticism from his own colleges, no? - Sylwia Presley

In Shashi's case, he is the boss in his ministry, so guess the others don't have a choice but to participate. :) Isn't the biggest hurdle to get a politician to take the first leap into this space, because once he/ she does the benefits are overwhelmingly evident? - Kedar Iyer

truth, i am glad to hear this is happening. but what is not? do you try to change each person? - Sylwia Presley

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say there is 1 government leader for every 100k people today. So, that's 1000 leaders for a country of 10M. How hard is it to change the 1000 leaders? I think it's easy, right? - Kedar Iyer

sorry, country size should be 100M for 1000 leaders ;) - Kedar Iyer

it is.:) - Sylwia Presley

So, who are going to change first? ;) - Kedar Iyer

I personally would change the general perception, the public; educate the crowds and choose right leaders - or force the existing ones to accept the change - but I think it's utopia... - Sylwia Presley

I agree with the first part - we assume too much of our democracies... - Sylwia Presley

Gordon Brown talked out collective problem solving for humanity at TED, has he started implementing steps to make that happen in UK? - Kedar Iyer

Gordon Brown is about as top-down as they come. If you wanted to go see him give that speech in Oxford you'd have to spend $4500 and fill out a form explaining why you were worthy. - Chris Rimmer