I agree with you whole heartedly... so how do we bring that control back to where it belongs? Data to see what your government is up to and the tools to analyse it would be a start. If we say "we want more democracy and transparency" and they say "err... no, I don't think so".. what do we do then? - Marcus Povey

Starting bottom up maybe? Electing local leaders that demonstrate the values needed for new governance? - Kedar Iyer

or people who understand the ethics of the web and the mechanisms behind it?;) - Sylwia Presley

Bottom up, yes. Perhaps though, circumventing the idea altogether? I don't need to be governed... could having the information and tools at our fingertips lead to greater engagement and democracy? I'm just reminded of the truism: Whoever you vote for, the government gets in. Its a monopoly on power, and a monopoly is always bad... - Marcus Povey

@sylwia .. then you just elevate another group of elites up in their place... power should be distributed, and tools and information made available to everyone for that purpose. Witness the good work mysociety are doing, also scoresonthedoors etc - Marcus Povey

I see, thx:) - Sylwia Presley

The fundamental problem with government policy is 1 rule for all, but the technology offers personalization. So, if we can change governance to make it personal for every citizen/ resident then Marcus' point about self governance comes into effect. - Kedar Iyer

Hello All. This is Richard. I met Marcus at Oxford Geek night. I study communication and development, worked for NGOs, participation, a newbie geek wannabee. I like playing pool. I hope OK to introduce myself here as it seems the active thread? - Rich

How does technology offer personalisation of governance? Can you explain? Do you mean more local governments, or no government? or .... - Rich

Hi Richard, glad to have you join. This discussion is getting more interesting. :) In my earlier comment I was responding to Marcus' idea of, do I need to be governed? I was highlighting the contrast between governance and technology in that, the former does not allow for personalization, but the latter does. So, how can we use technology to reform governance so that it is no longer one rule for all, but can embrace individual governance of some sort. - Kedar Iyer

Hi Rich, good to see you on here! I do wonder tho... even if it's individually personalised, its still government governing you? - Marcus Povey

if governance is personalised, is it governance at all? It is hard to see how you can personalise things such as Human rights, amount of tax to pay, etc. But I can see stronger more localised governance being helped by technology? also any type of governance having more 'input' from more people. - Rich

Not just input - scrutiny and accountability (which comes from the former) - Marcus Povey

exactly. and accountability would have teeth if citizens could be more active in governance, have time to be more active, want to be more active, know how to be more active - Rich

Which brings us back to having the tools and the data... - Marcus Povey

I think it is also the opportunity. I think people have less and less time to actually participate in government, even activism. That is why activism has in some way become professional and paid career. Tools and data are essential, but so is opportunity, and incentive that something will actual change. A system that makes participation natural rather than a massive effort except for ever few years I tick the box of the the person I dislike the least :) - Rich

The first step towards personalization is in governance becoming more participatory i.e. citizens becoming more active as Rich put it. Decision making can be crowd sourced by laying the facts for people to comment and critique per Marcus. - Kedar Iyer

I agree with Rich. An incentive to participate is needed, the promise of change isn't always enough for the masses. - Kedar Iyer

Having said that though, examples of change, however small can help more people see the benefits of their contribution. - Kedar Iyer

I think to a certain extent in the UK the critique is already there, except there is little trust in the critique, or what is being critiqued. The critique is also sometimes empty - yes I know this is shit, but it is too hard to change. At the moment in the UK, the incentive to compete is stronger than anything else - for housing, money, jobs, food, status, voice, political opinion, education provision, savings, pensions, security for your family. Does participation in government necessarily entail less competition in other areas of life? - Rich

Glad you bring up collaboration as the new way forward over competition. Governance in isolation cannot change, as businesses and the economy start to remodel around collaboration governance for such a system will incentivize participation over passive consumption. - Kedar Iyer

It would be nice to see more people taking control and DIYing it. Its easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission afterall, and who are the government if not just people... I like things like Brighton's peer to pier, or FixMyStreet as examples of really useful tools and infrastructure set up by individual innovators - Marcus Povey

At social innovation camp we try to catalyst that kind of innovation; using the web to reorganise the world one problem at a time (& without asking permission :) http://www.sicamp.org/ - dan