The scanned images are the property of the entity that created the scans. If you can get your own hands on a physical copy of Sidereus Nuncius in the original latin and scan those pages in, then you will own the rights to *that* set of scanned images. Not to the intellectual property (text) written by Sidereus, but to the scanned images of his words. Yes, that is truly how the law is interpreted.
- Jill O'Neill
Excuse my language, but that is f-ing ridiculous. No wonder this Google Books thing is a debacle.
- Richard Akerman
Wait a minute. Are you suggesting that, despite any costs incurred in scanning books, scanned images should somehow be free for the taking? As if there was no labor involved? When Dover Books reprints copies of old titles, no one suggests that Dover should be giving those printed copies away for free.
- Jill O'Neill
Bear in mind that Dover frequently just used old printed versions of texts themselves, not resetting type or anything like that.
- Jill O'Neill
"Sweat of the brow" is not basis for copyright in the US.
- D0r0th34
Jill, you're conflating atoms with bits. I *bought* Starry Messenger, I had no expectation that the print version should be free, even 400 years later. http://www.librarything.com/work... However, I do have an expectation that digital page images from a centuries-old book should be placed in the Commons. But anyway, I don't want to rehash what I'm sure has been thoroughly covered in the Google Books battle.
- Richard Akerman
"Not to the intellectual property (text) written by Sidereus, but to the scanned images of his words" - true, but the text is out of copyright now. So someone could scan it and place the entire work in the public domain.
- Nick Lothian
@Richard - I'm not sure this is all that closely related to the Google Books battle. Most of the argument there is about books that are still in copyright. This work isn't, and the text is available copyright free online. I agree it would be great if someone created public domain or CC-licenced photos of the actual book, but that's a different argument to the Google Books battle.
- Nick Lothian
So perhaps the objection needs to be framed differently. I agree that some copy somewhere of public domain material should be made available at little or no cost to the public (ie as in the instance of Project Gutenberg). I just don't think we should yell at those who do demand some form of financial compensation for their effort. I don't remember the library community yelling at Dover...
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- Jill O'Neill
@Jill - Octavo has a right to claim revenue. I'd prefer if one of the custodians of the physical books took a scan of it and placed it in the public domain, though. (Out of interest, though - how does Octavo make revenue from that scan? Do they sell it or something?)
- Nick Lothian
Octavo was a service provider; they were hired by museums and archives (and upon occasion monastery libraries) to provide them with archival quality scanned images of texts that needed to be both preserved and made accessible to scholars. They provided that service to those who protected the artifacts and that was/is their primary source of revenue; in turn, where permitted, Octavo...
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- Jill O'Neill
I understand the frustration of not being able to get to a "free" version of a text or document; I run up against it all the time. Richard was venting a little bit and expressing that frustration and I ought not to have turned this into a confrontation (and for that I apologize, Richard.) But I also get frustrated when I see the wrong people (translation vendors or publishers) blamed...
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- Jill O'Neill
Thanks, Jill, for adding the thoughtful comments to the discussion.
- Peter Murray
Sorry for my tone - I'm just frustrated because I wanted to be able to show some students "look at this page from 400 years ago" and I can't. Do I have a "right" to be able to show them something that I couldn't even find before Internet search and digitisation? No. *Should* that be a reasonable right and expectation... well, I think it should be. Just for some added bizarreness, you...
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- Richard Akerman
Incidentally the full latin text is available at http://www.liberliber.it/bibliot... - so then my question becomes, what are my rights to use a screenshot of that site? Would the presentation of the text and accompanying images on the web page be some sort of protected object under Italian copyright law? (There is no copyright notice on the site that I can find.)
- Richard Akerman
Incidentally in reading Jill's comments, I should have made the context clear - I don't want the text, I already bought it in translation and showing the students the original latin won't go very far - it was actually the page image itself that I was interested in showing. But naively, isn't this just "faithful reproduction" of a public domain work? Which I thought for e.g. art that's...
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- Richard Akerman
If you ran the scanned pages through OCR, the resulting text wouldn't be under copyright. Similarly, if I take a photo of the Gutenberg Bible, that photo is mine and I have copy rights to it, but I can't stop anyone else from taking such a photo, nor can someone else stop me from publishing my photo. (I'm not sure on that last point, as the Gutenberg Bible may be considered art, and I...
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- Kevin Fox
My understanding is that the Bridgeman decision http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki.... says that Jill's argument is incorrect. Perhaps the entire Octavo CD would be considered in copyright or a Dover clip art book cover-to-cover. But not an individual page, regardless of what the website says. I am, as they say, not a lawyer. But I have covered this on my...
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- s t e v e
Richard — I, too, am not a lawyer, but I thought I would mention that, if your purpose is to show a single page to your students, then you could logically claim that the page is an "excerpt" for educational use. This could fall under the "fair use" clause of copyright law. You should understand, however, that "fair use" is a defense, and, in claiming it, you're admitting to infringement ("Yes, I made a copy, but I believe my copy is allowed") and the people who claim copyright can still try to sue you.
- Mistletoe Glen
Actually, Glen, it's not accurate to say that you're admitting infringement. From section 107 "fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, *is not an infringement of copyright.* " (emphasis added)
- lris' ghost
Even so, Steve's point is that this new work may not be copyrightable because it is not sufficiently original.
- lris' ghost
Iris, according to my law school friends, the courts have held that, if the claim of fair use is not found, the claim itself is tantamount to admitting infringement. Again, I ain't a lawyer. It seems that what's interesting here is what constitutes a "work"—in this case, it sounds like it's not the original document, but the digital image of it. It's tough for me to see how that would stand up under court scrutiny, but I don't have the resources to take it to trial.
- Mistletoe Glen
"Slavish reproductions" of public domain works are not eligible for copyright protection. No matter how much work went into making a scan, or how much skill it may have taken to do it, it's a "slavish reproduction". Now, if they added something original to it, not found in the original work, then it would be covered by copyright. But just digitizing by scanning doesn't produce a derivative work that can be copyrighted.
- April Russo (app103)
But you don't have to "claim" fair use until you are sued, yes? If I copy a few sentences from a novel and post them here, I don't have to claim anything, I just do it.
- s t e v e
If you exceed fair use, then yes, it's infringement (and yes, the definitions aren't set in stone). But that doesn't mean that claiming fair use is admitting to infringement.
- lris' ghost
I _think_ Richard is in Canada, so fair use might not apply (I'm in Australia, and we don't have fair use. We do have exemptions for educational use, though)
- Nick Lothian
Dammit! You foreigners and your, your foreign-ness! I am not an international copyright lawyer, though I am an international man of mystery.
- s t e v e
I think Canada may have a copyright collection agency, which automatically collects money from educational agencies for photocopying (and - web browsing). In Australia, we have one, and I think it would cover this situation. (IANAL etc)
- Nick Lothian
Has anyone asked an art professor about this? Lots of art history classes taught from slides of 'non-copyrightable works'. I would imagine there's a hefty precedent for what's OK in terms of lectures. Multi-discipline FTW :)
- Paul J. Davis
I am very surprised, I have to say. I usually work with databases, and what I am always told is that it is irrelevant how much hard work goes into making it - unless the result is a "creative work", it is not protected by copyright law. I find it very hard to comprehend how scanning a book can be considered creative and give rise to copyright. If I take screen shots of things from Project Gutenberg, do I get copyright on my bitmaps? What if I print out the texts and scan them in again?
- Lars Juhl Jensen
@Lars - the tendency to give monopoly privileges to non-creative things like database compilation is very different around the world. The EU is particularly bad. More here http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009...
- Anders Norgaard
I am in Canada, and i think our equivalent is "fair dealing", plus we have law that covers photocopies but I think is not so clear in the digital age. There is an underlying point that one shouldn't have to be an international copyright lawyer in order to work with digital objects. If I have time I will try to track down more Canadian info on the topic.
- Richard Akerman
from BuddyFeed
I'm inspired to write a post or article, "Dead" is Dead. This one's pretty extreme: says X is Dead in the title, then says "X isn't dead" in the story. (As to the story itself, it's interesting: for my self-published books, Lulu didn't require an ISBN--but CreateSpace, part of Amazon, does, and assigns one. And Lulu says you have to have an ISBN to be on Amazon. So, you know, it's pretty clear Amazon's trying to kill off ISBNs. Or not.)
- Walt Crawford
I've heard (or read of) numerous complaints that the most recent price increase for purchase of blocks of ISBNs as well as the requirement for an ISBN for every single ebook format represents an onerous burden on small publishers. No one is denying the need for a unique identifier, just questioning whether a unique identifier must be purchased for every single ebook standard format...
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- Jill O'Neill
All of which would have made an interesting article without putting off people who object to deliberate sensationalizing. Maybe ISBNs don't work for ebooks; that's a different issue than their being dead.
- Walt Crawford
But if the future is in ebooks (current conventional wisdom) and ISBNs don't work for ebooks, that might be an ominous signal about the impending death. (None of which negates the truth of what you are saying, Walt!)
- Jill O'Neill
The article and comments, as whole--minus a few off-the-wall ones--were pretty good at bringing out some issues. But I, too, object to the sensational blog title. Although, Walt, we must admit that much advice we've seen on how to blog recommends such tactics. You & I are swimming upstream on this one, I fear. ;-)
- Mar₭ Liŋdŋer
Really? The "conventional wisdom" is that "the future is in ebooks"? Guess I'm running with the wrong crowd; I thought that conventional wisdom faded a few years back. (Add "part of" to "the future" and I don't object.) Even Bezos and Teleread Rothman don't believe print books are going away.
- Walt Crawford
The vast majority of industry gurus believe that the trend over the next three decades will be away from ownership of the physical artifact -- certainly in trade publishing. The belief is that younger users (those 20 or younger) will be more acclimated to reading on-screen using some mobile device for those limited use types of books (textbooks, genre fiction, etc.). That is not to say...
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- Jill O'Neill
Ah, you gotta love Industry Gurus: "negative aspects of used book sales." No wonder they're touting ebooks--get rid of that nasty old first sale doctrine, and probably get rid of fair use along with it. And maybe, just maybe, you can avoid the horrible practice of public libraries lending people books *for nothing!* (Sorry. I'm not in the industry--and I don't even believe the gurus in my so-called "industry.")
- Walt Crawford
"See, according to Facebook it's all part of the acceptable use policy you agreed to. No, I'm not kidding. That red box above contains an ad that was displayed to Peter Smith, who no doubt agrees that the woman in the image is hot -- although he suspected she wasn't single. You guessed it, that's his wife - consultant Cheryl Smith."
- Peter Murray
Changed my setting too. I did notice that your photo would only appear to your friends -- still not good but better than random strangers being assaulted by my ugly mug.
- Bill Hooker
Is anyone else having the simultaneous feelings of (a) violated trust and (b) disappointment that it didn't happen to you? I mean, if it was my pic or one of my friends, that would be a great story. Now it's just "I read on teh Intarwebs about this guy who knows a guy whose wife..." :-)
- Joe Murphy
Mine was defaulted to "no one." Maybe some of your other privacy settings are too loose?
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
My had defaulted to "only friends" before I changed it. I don't know if previous settings had an effect on this one.
- Peter Murray
@Peter - That's their devious plan, to inject your images into your friends ads so you say, "Hey, I know that guy," and then you're tricked into reading an ad. They think that gets around the whole privacy issue, because they're only showing your pics to people who can already see them.
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
"Let's face it -- who doesn't want to see Apple's moneymaker strapped to the belly of an RC plane and shot up into the air?"
- Mike Reynolds
from Bookmarklet
geometry play in garages & billboards is really amazing! thanks Bill! ;-)
- Yaroslav Nikolaev
I had the idea to do something like the garages series, but I never had the time and frankly, I don't have the technical chops to do it at that level. I bet those images are stunning at, say, 100cm high.
- Bill Hooker
Nice find Bill! Thanks a lot. I haven't seen Kropilak's photography before.
- Pawel Szczesny
"Back in Houston, NASA engineers understood the seriousness of the situation. If they couldn't come up with a solution while Cernan and Schmitt slept, the next day's exploration could be severely curtailed. The astronauts might even be limited to walking distance. But they did come up with a fix and it called on, you guessed it, duct tape. When Cernan and Schmitt woke up the next morning, mission control explained how they should tape four laminated maps together in the shape of the missing fender. "Just call me the little old fender maker," said Cernan as he tore off pieces of gray tape. This time the taping was done inside the relatively dust-free confines of the lunar lander, so the duct tape retained its usual stickiness. Clamped to the moonbuggy, the new fender held for the rest of the mission, which included another 15 hours of EVAs."
- Peter Murray
from Bookmarklet
"When the Sony Walkman was launched, 30 years ago this week, it started a revolution in portable music. But how does it compare with its digital successors? The Magazine invited 13-year-old Scott Campbell to swap his iPod for a Walkman for a week."
- Peter Murray
"According to a new report from Cambridge University (PDF), students aren't interested in being able to read eBooks and eJournals on their mobile phones. Instead, users are far more interested in opening hours, location maps, contact info, and access to the library catalog. Most respondents were also far more interested in getting alerts by text message than being able to use library resources over the mobile web."
- John Dupuis
"While these recommendations seem reasonable based on the survey data, we agree with Lorcan Dempsey, a library blogger and Vice President of OCLC, who argues that with the advent of better eReaders and the iPhone, these survey results will probably look very different in just a few years from now."
- John Dupuis
Just got an iPhone. I can tell you that I've never been so concerned about my libraries capability to connect/serve mobile devices.
- Stephen Anthony
"Rumours are spreading that Elsevier staff are approaching UK vice-chancellors and persuading them to point to PDF copies of articles on Elsevier's web-site rather than have the articles deposited in institutional repositories"
- Bill Hooker
from Bookmarklet
I try to keep an open mind and not leap in with unconsidered blanket condemnation...but these companies make it hard for me, they really do...
- Neil Saunders
Don't give up hope Neil!! *innocent puppy dog eyes*
- Noah Gray
'Shira Tabachnikoff, director of corporate communications at Elsevier: ... problems with institutional repositories include the archiving of incomplete papers and manuscripts containing errors, and the duplication of costs.' I predict that the latter will be the main line of attack. Well Elsevier, since we're talking about duplication of costs...
- Garret McMahon
This is where IRs that have broadened their missions beyond peer-reviewed literature will come out smelling like roses.
- D0r0th34
Does anyone know if the PDF copies on Elsevier's website will then be freely available, or is the assumption that the links will be to pay-for-access copies? I would assume this would make a big difference as to how appealing this proposal is.
- Hilary
Many of my colleagues in the lab don't seem to realise the massive potential of institutional repositories... universities don't seem to be getting their message across to scientists about the importance. Maybe things are changing, slowly...
- Duncan Hull
@Duncan I am now not convinced about the potential of repositories for scientists. In abstract yes; as currently run, no
- peter murray-rust
In my limited experience, librarians are talking to each other about repositories, but are not actively going out and engaging faculty. So faculty don't have any idea that repositories even exist, let alone that they are important.
- Matthew Todd
...which is not to assign blame, merely to try to explain that faculty can't be expected to ask about things they don't know are there...
- Matthew Todd
there is definitely fault on both sides, faculty who don't listen and won't be helped but also lack of a communication. As far as I am aware as a Southampton Academic I have never been formally told about the deposition mandate. But equally where there are people working hard to get the message out you've got faculty who don't care or are actively antagonistic
- Cameron Neylon
from twhirl
Peter, I suggest we're actually violently in agreement. We're both frustrated over a situation we have less power over than we'd like, and that is serving neither of us well. Rather than both of us sniping at each other over it -- and I know I've been sniping, and I'm sorry for it -- why don't we sort out an agenda we can both work at?
- D0r0th34
@D0r0th34 Thanks. I am not deliberately sniping, but I *am* becoming increasingly disillusioned about IRs in general. They've been going ?6years - 1400 at present == 100M USD ++ per year and we still can't search them properly (see Klaus Graf's comments as well as mine). You have the ear of some of the library community as a bellwether/gadfly - but I don't know where *you* take it...
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- peter murray-rust
Not lost, I hope; merely mislaid. :) As I said, we're violently in agreement -- I loathe IR software at least as much as you do, and for many more reasons. (Have you read Roach Motel? I think you'd enjoy it, if you haven't.) The problem I'm having with where to take things practically is that there are about fifteen different directions depending on which community we're talking about...
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- D0r0th34
On the dissertation issue, it's not just for the sake of being able to get data out of dissertations that we should be requiring more than a pdf. We ran across a case this year with a corrupt pdf file that a student had created. We ended up having to go back to her to get the original word document so that we could make a workable pdf out of it. That experience alone has made us think that we should require the dissertation / thesis in its original form.
- Sarah
@D0r0th34 I don't have easy answers for librarians - I do have answers (including resources and code) for scientists. I seriously doubt whether the gap between scientists and librarians can be reduced and I suspect that it will widen. I have a small chance to reach a small number of librarians on October ILI2009 - perhaps with some further reach - and I have so far got no ideas other...
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- peter murray-rust
@D0r0th34 I'd like any cases - however rare - where scientists are actively using an IR anywhere for *research* (I accept they may be used for TLOs for teaching and digital objects in arts/humanities). These cases could be used as examples to show what works.
- peter murray-rust
Do you think the Jedi mind trick will work on the Rogers guy next week when I go get a new iPhone? *waves hand* You will give me a good deal on a voice and data plan. *waves hand* I'm not the sucker you are looking for...
- Stephen Anthony