A place to discuss gender disparities, in an effort to promote understanding and equality, since the inequalities impact all of us - regardless of our gender.
"Every year, Planned Parenthood offers services to more than five million men, women, and adolescents. In that year, they offer nearly one million Pap tests and more than 850,000 breast exams, provide provides more than 3.3 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, and estimate that their services prevent as many as 621,000 unintended pregnancies. Many locations offer prenatal and postpartum care. In addition, they offer safe, affordable abortions."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"People who oppose reproductive self-determination hate that. Why should women have the right to decide if they become pregnant? After all, if God didn't want you to punish you with the blessing of a baby, He wouldn't have made you a wanton slut who seeks sexual pleasure."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"Hence, Planned Parenthood and other reproductive health clinics around the country find themselves dealing with a special campaign called "40 Days for Life." Serena at Feminists for Choice explains how it works: Forty Days for Life and other anti-choice groups are conducting a “prayer vigil” campaign, where they will target Planned Parenthood clinics and other family planning...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"I can completely understand why someone might be opposed to abortion (although I don't agree with the reasoning nor do I believe that one person has the right to impose their religious beliefs about conception on others), but also insisting that birth control is immoral is beyond the pale for most Americans, who quite frankly, kind of like the idea that they can have sex without fear...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"Birth control aside, and since the vast majority of people going to Planned Parenthood are not getting abortions, but rather pap smears, breast exams, tests and treatments for STDs (which, if left untreated, could actually prevent pregnancy), and sometimes prenatal and postpartum care, it is hard to see how supposedly "pro-life" protesters are supporting life by harassing people who...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"Another thing I love about supporters of "40 Days for Life" is that they claim they are just peaceful lovers of the unborn facing violent, angry feminist murders doing their best to subvert God's intended unequal relationship between men and women. This may be true in some cases, but the I Am Emily X blog gives Planned Parenthood's workers an anonymous way to share their experiences...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"It all leaves me wondering: If a cause is just, where do deception and intimidation fit in?"
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Back in 1986, some very stupid pro-lifers showed up at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Newark NJ on the wrong day...high-risk prenatal care day...and harassed all the visibly pregnant women entering the clinic, assuming they were all there for abortions, which is about as far away from the truth as one could possibly get. Not only were all the women they harassed intending to keep their...
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- April Russo (app103)
For Pro Lifers they seem to have a very narrow understanding of the term "pro life" because they see no harm in killing an abortion doctor. Hypocrites, all of them! (They are the ones who should be chemically castrated, IMNSHO!)
- Rene Wirtz
"Women are undergoing surgery to create perfect genitalia amid a "shocking" lack of information on the potential risks of the procedure, a report says. Research published in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology also questions the very notion of aesthetically pleasing genitals. Operations to improve the appearance of the sex organs for both psychological and physical reasons are on the rise."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
What model is used to portray perfect? This is sooo weird.
- jcunwired
No idea...but there are too many negative examples of "sexual beauty" for women to try to live up to something that is a part of them. I'm also against male circumcision for similar reasons.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I decided to share this in the US Politics thread, as well, because from my perspective it is a subject that should be discussed. The current health reform bill debates are hotly discussing abortion, with the understanding that the next item on the chopping block is contraception (at least from certain groups *sigh*) -- but funny this...vasectomies were not mentioned. While this article is informative in nature, the political question was one that I continued to ponder from a different scope than I addressed within the article.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I wonder what people who are shouting for yanking away the choice for women's reproductive benefits, think of vasectomies?!
- Rene Wirtz
I think it's a mixed bag. There are a lot of misconceptions about vasectomies all by itself without any political implication. However, as applicable to contraception, I suspect certain groups think of it as just as much of a "sin" as any contraceptive choice afforded to women. Not to put too fine a point on it, I suspect it doesn't come up too much in discussion because men have always benefited historically from having the freedom of choice...*shrug* Just my thoughts.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I would imagine it isn't talked about much because it isn't thought about much. Most contraceptives are temporary, and therefor the main focus is availability. Vasectomies and hysterectomies are permanent contraception, so once it's done there's not much to say. There are medical reasons for a woman to have a hysterectomy, so I doubt there would be too much attention put on them. Vasectomies I think would be something men don't want to talk about because it makes them squeamish.
- Heather
That's an interesting perspective - though I will say I don't equate hysterectomy with vasectomy. Hysterectomy is *removal* of specific reproductive parts that also can result in enormous hormonal changes -- I equate vasectomy in men with tubal ligation in women. Still yet, comparatively, the permanent contraceptive surgery is *so* much safer for men...it surprises me that given a...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Kind of weird that vasectomies fly under the radar despite their effectiveness as birth control and inherent squickiness for guys. Maybe political types assume that a REAL AMERICAN MAN wouldn't want one?
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
I strongly suspect that is a greater likelihood, actually. Birth control, like everything related to pregnancy, has pretty much been consigned to women since the dawn of time. *shrug* Funny, though, how little a vasectomy actually changes *anything* in a man...(pun unintended)...the ONLY thing it changes is sperm-ability to escape the body...lol
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"The assault on women's reproductive rights continues with a vengeance. As Congress struggled to pass health care reform to improve the lives of America's families, anti-choice forces took advantage of the situation to mount yet another assault on abortion. They were willing to sacrifice health care reform -- even though millions of people would now be able to receive coverage, even though the bill would finally begin to lower health care costs, even though lives would be saved -- to enact anti-abortion provisions to take away reproductive rights from millions of women."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"The effect of the Stupak/Pitts Amendment would be to deny the millions of women who get covered through the exchanges access to comprehensive reproductive health care that includes abortion services. These women would be denied coverage available today in private health plans. The Amendment effectively bans private insurance companies that participate in insurance exchanges from...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"How gullible do they think we are? Women don't expect to have an unintended pregnancy or a dangerous pregnancy that jeopardizes their health. And few if any insurance plans would actually choose to provide such a rider. Five states now have provisions to provide abortion riders. But folks have been trying to find a plan that actually provides one -- and they're still looking."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"Make no mistake about it: the Stupak Amendment will deny millions of women access to safe, affordable reproductive health care. It puts an expensive price tag on women's ability to act on their reproductive rights. This outrageous provision must be stricken from the legislation before health care reform becomes law."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"In 2008 the country elected a pro-choice Congress and a pro-choice president. The president has repeatedly told the country that health care reform would not take away benefits from those who currently have insurance. Now it's up to the President and the Congress to make certain that women do not lose their benefits or rights as a result of health care reform. There's no point in...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Please join my group Custom Nutrients! We can explore various health routes together!
- Carol OConnor
Frustrated. While I am grateful for the progress made with the healthcare reform bill, there are dangerous provisions to women embedded in it. Take Action Now: http://www.ppaction.org/campaig...
On Friday, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops met with leaders in the House of Representatives in their bid to eliminate women's access to abortion care under health care reform. And it WORKED. Opponents of legal abortion and health care for women are emboldened by Saturday night's vote and ready to bring their ban on abortion to the Senate floor.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
While there are some who are satisfied with the health care reform bill that passed in the House of Representatives late Saturday night, Cecile Richards is not one of them. (and on this count, neither am I...) When it came down to it, Congress passed a bill that will undercut women's access to comprehensive health care.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Despite hundreds of thousands of voters who called on members of Congress to include women's health care in health care reform, the bill that passed Saturday night includes a ban on private abortion coverage for millions of women and would prohibit it in the new "public option."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Now it's our turn. And this time we are going to use our strongest weapon: the White House. That's why, today, we are calling on President Obama to ensure that lawmakers, especially those in his own party, support health care reform that protects women's access to reproductive care as the next round of debate and voting occurs in the Senate.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
President Obama campaigned on a promise to put reproductive health care at the center of his reform plan. Supporters of women's health voted for him and contributed to his campaign in record numbers — and now it's time for the president to reaffirm his commitment to women's health, and demand that Congress reject any bill that leaves women worse off under health care reform than they...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Please click the link above, and take action in support of real healthcare reform that does not detrimentally impact women.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
It is beyond disgusting that religious beliefs are dictating law-making.
- Rene Wirtz
Make him get the "credits" for providing equal health care to men and women *grin*
- Rene Wirtz
But seriously, if your religious beliefs prevent you from having an abortion, it doesn't mean that you should force that belief onto others who would like that choice to be available. That is offensive oppression.
- Rene Wirtz
Agreed. Whole-heartedly, and that is exactly the brand of exceptionalistic mentality that I take such incredible personal offense to.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Wasn't that meeting a violation of the constitution? What about separation of church and state? I can't believe that this was not, in anyway, questioned by anyone in congress!
- Helen Sventitsky
I'd say it was a clear violation of the constitution, but as it stands now, most politicians are in some way, shape or form in the pockets of religious dogma.
- Rene Wirtz
I'm sure there will be some technicality by which they (both sides) will "excuse it" -- *rolls eyes* -- but to answer your question, I believe it is a violation of church & state, yes.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Today, something extraordinary happened. Love conquered hate. After more than a decade, the inclusive hate crimes bill we've fought so hard for has been signed by the president and sealed in law. I cannot overstate the importance of this moment. This is the first time ANY federal equality measure protecting LGBT rights has become law. The very...
Looking at this chart...and given the population of Europe (in terms of variable demographics), I can't help but wonder, what is the "real" argument in the United States by anti-choicers?
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Let me clarify something Alex. I'm not getting into the "abortion debate" - I'm pointing out the religious demographic nature of the different countries in Europe (read: predominately Catholic), and I have not read anything like the "40 Days of Life" campaigns we have here in the U.S. That is what I'm referring to...not the "morality definitions" that anti-choicers spout.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I'll try to keep the map in mind the next time I hear someone argue that the U.S. is the only country where a women can get an abortion for any reason.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Sorry. I can't say why Europe doesn't have a stronger pro-life moment. I would point out that the church attendance rates in most "Catholic" countries are extremely low. Many people identify as a given religion for cultural reasons, but don't really participate in a meaningful way.
- Alex Scrivener
I don't know of any people who are more catholic than Italians and Spaniards.
- Rene Wirtz
I would venture to think that European catholics have progressed over time, while here in the US they're still stuck in the 17th century.
- Rene Wirtz
I don't know that I agree, Alex...that's like default implication that the only "meaningful participation" in the Catholic church is done by American Catholics...by virtue of protesting family planning clinics, which is a faulty argument at best.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
The Church is the Church. The Popes, all European so far, have been consistent opponents of abortion, as have the bishops and priests. The fact that they are widely ignored doesn't change that. The Catholic Church has always defined itself as a top-down organization, not a democracy.
- Alex Scrivener
Speaking as one, most Europeans are actually consistently approve of abortion, or better yet, pro choice. Even in a country like Belgium, where the Opus Dei following late king declared himself unfit to rule for a day, so law could pass legalizing abortion, because the overwhelming majority of (catholic) Belgians wanted it.
- Rene Wirtz
And yet it's available upon request - mostly without interference by ideologues...in Europe. Here? We have people *bombing* clinics and murdering viable adults in the name of religious premise.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I guess part of my being perplexed is less to do with abortion itself - because everyone has feelings on that subject...and my only feeling is that if a person is against abortion, then they shouldn't have one but otherwise stay out of other people's lives since nobody has any right to dictate morality for anyone else -- but the *other* services, that are *live-saving* that clinics like...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
From triple t: "I am here today because of a conversation I had last June when I was voting," Spooner says. "A woman at my polling place asked me, "Do you believe in equal, equality for gay and lesbian people?' I was pretty surprised to be asked a question like that. It made no sense to me. Finally I asked her, 'What do you think our boys fought for at Omaha Beach?' I haven't seen much, so much blood and guts, so much suffering, much sacrifice. For what? For freedom and equality. These are the values that give America a great nation, one worth dying for."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"I knew they were coming, but I didn’t expect to see this many people. On Saturday, 250 protesters showed up at the Fannin Health Center in Houston, Texas, to harass Planned Parenthood clients. They called the day’s protest the “March of the Surviving Youth,” and circled around the health center seven times in a “Jericho March” intended to collapse the walls of the health center, like the story of Joshua in the Old Testament. No such luck."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"I and my fellow escorts were vigilant as we guided clients safely from the parking lot to the health center, despite the efforts of protesters. At one point, a group of them circled around me screaming, “I’m praying for you, ma’am!” and “You are not God’s child; you speak death!” and “You have no idea who you’re messing with!” This is not a so-called “peaceful protest.” This is harassment."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"But we will continue to stand together in support of comprehensive reproductive health care — including access to safe abortion care. We will make sure that despite a few harassing voices, we will be here for the millions of women, men, and teens that need access to basic health care. We will continue to be here for our patients throughout the “40 Days for Life,” just like we have every day since 1936."
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
"Joy Behar humanizes Ann Coulter, denies being a Marxist, and defends Whoopi Goldberg on her "rape-rape" comment." - and now has her own gig separate from "the view"
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
from Bookmarklet
after this week involving my dad undergoing surgery because it turns out one of his testicles contained a small tumour, this subject kinda jumped to the foreground of my mind. I need to point out something this article doesn't mention - tumours in the testicles typically affects males in the 20 to 40 age range, tho it can happen when older (as in my dads case, who is in his mid-50's).
- alphaxion
Good point - and there is a link within the article I posted that goes to an in-depth site about testicular abnormalities and possible cancer concerns. The only area I noted age was the risk of cardiac issues (which jumped out at me, for some reason). Because my focus in healthcare has consistently been women's health for so long, I realized I needed to place some attention on men's health also. *nod* There are several issues that men (unfortunately) disregard. I will update more as I write more. :)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Decided to post two gender-specific subjects here. As I post more articles that are gender-related (even if not specifically about disparity), I will share them here. :)
"Winstead is hilarious. I'm glad she responded to Hitchens' ridiculous claim. Besides, he may not have meant what he said; he's usually very noticeably drunk... reechard added this video and said "Rachel Sklar talks to Daily Show co-creator Lizz Winstead about the dearth of women working behind the scenes on shows like The Colbert Report and The Daily Show. Winstead says it’s not a purposeful exclusion, and that when she was originally staffing The Daily Show, only 3 of the 150 writer submissions were from women, and none of those three women had the chops to write for the show. However, Winstead emphatically refutes Christopher Hitchens’ provocative claim that women aren’t funny. “I’m funny, so he’s wrong. By being funny, his whole theory is disproved.” via http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a..."
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
from Bookmarklet
"Some sociologists argue that gender (as opposed to sex) is really more about performance than it is about our bodies. That is, we do gender and, when we do it in ways that other people recognize, everyone feels satisfied. This is, perhaps, what Caster Semenya’s handlers were hoping for when she submitted to a makeover for South Africa’s YOU Magazine: Notice that Semenya carries the same body into this photoshoot, but she is properly adorned with make up, feminine clothing, jewelry, a passive pose, and a pleasant and inviting facial expression (because to be feminine is to be accommodating). Perhaps more importantly, the copy and the interview tells the reader that Semenya likes dressing up and looking pretty, another important indicator of both femininity and non-masculinity. The cover says: WE TURN SA’S POWER GIRL INTO A GLAMOUR GIRL – AND SHE LOVES IT! (Notice, too, the implication that power and glamour are opposed.)"
- April Russo (app103)
from Bookmarklet
"The figure below, borrowed from U.S. News and World Report, shows that the wage gap between women and men, for nearly all age groups, has narrowed significantly between 1979 and 2008. It also shows that the wage gap is smallest for men and women aged 20-24, grows for men and women aged 25-34, grows even further for men and women aged 35-44, and remains steady after that."
- April Russo (app103)
from Bookmarklet
Fwd: Europe and USA huhe:)) (via http://friendfeed.com/funny-p...) ... This one got me to thinking on another level of disparity. Why is it (seemingly) that only women are targeted for this type of exposure? Is there a disparity in what is acceptable in terms of visual appeal between the genders?
I really don't want to search for it, but there is a picture of an overweight man with a thin woman (both wearing swimwear) captioned "How to spot a rich man". I'm not sure if it has anything to do with this. I'll try to form a coherent thought on this post later. :)
- Heather
So, I guess my thoughts on the pictures are that the "Europe" to me seems less about being pretty and more about being slutty. The "USA" is more about the trend at laughing at people and a very poorly thought out clothing choice. (To be fair, Europe can't seem to find pants that fit.) To me this picture represents how readily people will find ways to put others down. It's super easy to...
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- Heather
I am by no means blaming women, we have so many freaking messages thrown at us it's amazing anyone turns out reasonably well balanced! But I'm on the thin side and have always gotten crap about it. I literally had friends in high school push food in my mouth and was excluded from complaining about the difficulty in searching for clothes that fit well. It seemed then, and still today,...
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- Heather
In my original comments on this picture, I refused to back down against (honest and non-malicious) comments from men...I personally find the "attractive" picture ("European"/left-side) just as trashy as I find the "unattractive" picture ("American"/right-side) picture unappealing. Thing is, appearance in and of itself means NOTHING to me. Not to say I'm without eyes or that I'm without...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Yeah, the red head there reminds me of the guys that wear the waist of their pants slightly above the knee, but with a thong instead of full coverage boxers. Pre-boyfriend, I always had crushes on the skinny geeky guys. My guy is a little large but I love him and there's nothing better then an all enveloping snuggle. :) I do want him to loose a little weight, but for his health and his...
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- Heather
Beauty is an indefinable *something* that the moment we try to label it as one thing or another, it can easily be torn apart. *nod* One example who springs instantly to mind is Jill Scott (http://www.babble.com/CS...) ~ in my opinion, she is incredibly beautiful, and I think if she were to "get skinny" she wouldn't be anywhere near as beautiful as...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Historically, advertising tried to convince women they wanted to be skinny, lose weight in order to be desirable to the opposite sex. In contrast, men were told they wanted to gain weight, not be the 98 lb weakling. Even if it were fat and not muscle, it was more desirable to have weight to throw around, rather than be the guy that couldn't protect his skinny weak woman from being...
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- April Russo (app103)
It would be highly discriminatory and illegal to forbid 2 people of the same gender from entering into a contract for something like providing landscaping for a homeowner. Could you imagine if it were illegal for a male homeowner to hire and sign a contract with a landscaping company owned by another male? Could you image in any way that it would be fair or legal to force him to find a female owned company to provide services? How about the EULA in software? Could you imagine a world where end users could only use software and agree to the EULA if the software was written by a member of the opposite sex? How about renting an apartment? Imagine if it were illegal for a female property owner to rent an apartment and sign a lease agreement with a female tenant. So why is it fair or legal to forbid 2 people of the same gender to enter into one specific type of civil contract? Marriage. It is a civil contract, a legally binding agreement between 2 parties, no different than any other type...
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- April Russo (app103)
I could even argue that a civil marriage contract isn't the same thing as "Holy Matrimony". A civil marriage is a civil contract between 2 human parties, and "Holy Matrimony" is a religious contract between 3 parties, the 2 human ones and their god.
- April Russo (app103)
You hit the points I was going to make about the religious definition of marriage, versus what is "commonly" accepted outside of religious pretense. My husband & I use the terms "husband" and "wife" because they're commonly recognized - but the words themselves are founded in religious doctrine, and by definition in that sense, my "spouse" and I don't fit the definitions...lol...other...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I seriously can't think of any other type of civil contract where it is forbidden, by law, for 2 parties of the same gender to enter into that contract. If anyone has any contract lawyer friends, ask them if they can think of one, besides marriage, where this gender issue applies.
- April Russo (app103)
Well, other than pornography (into which same sex contracts are "expected"), marriage is the only civil contract where sex is part of the arrangement. Ultimately, it boils down to "morality policing" - and it needs to be thrown out the nearest window. But that's just my opinion.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I am not referring to the terms of the contract, but the contract type itself, so even that pornography example isn't really relevant to this.
- April Russo (app103)
True, in the sense of the terms of proscription...yes (though I was trying to add levity - weakly) - the point I was making ultimately is that marriage is the only civil contract in which sex is part of the deal - unless there's another civil contract that includes sex. Moral policing is the problem, and religious folks (mostly) are going nuts trying to prevent people of the same gender from having that freedom in any contractual - legitimized way - and claiming "god" as the justification.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Even the Catholic Church recognizes the fact there are 2 different contracts at play here, both a civil one and a religious one, and while a couple may be able to get a civil divorce, after which both parties are free to enter into another civil marriage contract, since the religious contract can't be broken they are not free to enter into another religious marriage contract. The church...
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- April Russo (app103)
The easiest way to fix this is to remove any and all legal binding from the word marriage and create a nationally recognized civil union that has spousal, survivor benefits. This way, if you want to enter in to a legally binding union, to share benefits from employers, make end-of-life decisions, etc... with another person you do so through the government. If you also want to be married in a ceremony of the religion of your choice, you are free to do so. Oh, that's just too simple, though, isn't it?
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
from fftogo
The easiest way to fix this is to recognize the discrimination according to standard contract law and get rid of it. There are those that think that by doing that, it would start an avalanche of allowing other types of marriage, such as allowing a human to marry a cow or a car, when that isn't true, since a cow or a car can't legally enter into any type of contract agreement. It also...
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- April Russo (app103)
There are also those that think that fixing the problem would somehow allow a legal basis for polygamy, when that isn't true either, due to the exclusivity clause in civil marriage contracts. You still wouldn't be legally allowed to enter into a 2nd civil marriage contract for as long as the first one is still in effect. (you could however still enter into multiple religious marriage contracts if your religion recognizes them, which is how it already is, now)
- April Russo (app103)
The topic of the Catholic church in this is one that I have always found disturbing (mainly because of the Catholic views that are discriminatory beyond same sex marriage), but it's not limited to the Catholic church. There are evangelical churches that foster the same idea - that a divorced *woman* is considered soiled goods (of a kind). The religious element regardless of denomination is what is the most strongly antagonistic to the idea of gender-neutral civil union contracts.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
You're correct, April, in that there are *two* contracts at play - but only for people who define "marriage" by religious tenet. We saw this in California during the Prop 8 fiasco - the christian couples completely freaking out about the change in the paperwork offered at the state offices that read: "Partner 1" and "Partner 2" - (I can't remember if it was "Partner" or "Spouse") - and...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
My only point in mentioning the catholic church was to illustrate the point that in the eyes of that church there is a distinction between a civil contract marriage and a religious contract marriage, in which most married in a church would actually be entering into 2 separate marriage contracts and not 1.
- April Russo (app103)
My meaning in separation of terms is that "husband" and "wife" are religiously defined terms (I looked this up a while back, and I can hunt for those links if necessary). I don't *personally* mind that - if a couple is of a religious persuasion, this makes perfect sense to them...and within their respective churches, the granting of that marriage officiation is fine. However, for...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
April, honestly - I probably haven't been entirely clear, because I've been injecting my dorky (and often absurd) sense of humor into this, but bottom line - in my opinion, you're onto something here...and I'm in full agreement with you. It is discriminatory - the next question is, from your perspective, can it actually *be changed*? This is a very hot-button topic (like abortion) and riles people at an emotional level, where reason seemingly is out of reach.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
The difference is that is not like any other legal contract in creation, benefits or dissolution. Unlike any other contract, this one is administered and overseen by state and church. You need either or both to enter it and either or both to get out of it. Any other contract is solely between the two parties, entered by oral agreement or signing a piece of paper both to get into it or get out of it. It is the state's and church's involvement in marriage that gums up the works and imposes requirements
- Martha
Well this isn't something you let people vote on, any more than you would ever put it up to a vote whether or not people of the same gender should allowed to go into business together. This is something that has to be done through the courts. If the supreme court was to state that it is unconstitutional to restrict contracts according to gender, then that's it, it's done...and it...
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- April Russo (app103)
not otherwise found in contracts. Like the fact you can't marry your cousin in some states. Or that you can't marry a minor without consent. Where the state gets involved, there is a third party overseeing the process that makes for legal hurdles.
- Martha
@Matha: Since when is a civil marriage overseen by a church? Only a religious one is. I know plenty of atheists, including myself, that would be quite offended at the idea that our marriages are overseen by any church.
- April Russo (app103)
It's not. I am talking about marriage generally
- Martha
You have a choice whether to have a church administer it and go through that rigamarole or go through the state. Either way, there are impositions on it.
- Martha
Please understand, I don't agree with either the church's or the state's position on anything but marriage equality. I am just answering your question as to why they are different.
- Martha
The state does not recognize religious marriages. Proof of this is the many married same sex couples that had religious ceremonies in churches that do not forbid such things in states where same sex civil marriages are illegal. Churches do not always recognize civil marriages. Ask a remarried Catholic if you don't believe me. In fact, the Catholic Church doesn't recognize my husband's...
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- April Russo (app103)
April said: "If the supreme court was to state that it is unconstitutional to restrict contracts according to gender, then that's it, it's done...and it doesn't matter how anyone feels about it or what they believe, any more than the people that feel women shouldn't cut their hair or wear pants. After that, it would boil down to if a church's stand is against same sex marriage, they shouldn't perform a same sex marriage ceremony, and individuals against it shouldn't marry someone of the same gender." Bingo.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Martha, you said - "I don't agree with either the church's or the state's position on anything but marriage equality." Can you expand on that?
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I believe in most states the mentally ill or underdeveloped can't legally enter into a marriage contract if they are officially declared incompetent and incapable of making that type of decision.
- April Russo (app103)
Hey, I understand where you are coming from with that and I feel the same about that exclusivity clause, along with that length of the contract term (for life). I'd like to see that changed to a period of say 5 to 10 years, with option to renew, but let's take one hurdle at a time.
- April Russo (app103)
"effectively self-supporting, and who can be reasonably expected to discharge effectively the obligations of marriage and parenthood" is essentially what I meant would be allowed. The opposite would be "incompetent and incapable of making that type of decision" of which there are those that fit that description, and they not allowed to marry. I don't know of any state where a man can legally marry a woman that has the mind of a 2 year old and isn't even toilet trained.
- April Russo (app103)
I think the only thing that should be required is the person to understand the terms of the contract sufficiently to be able to make a decision. That in itself could imply an ability to fulfill "the obligations", whatever those are. (don't remember what those so called obligations are other than I am supposed to be stuck with the bastard I married, no matter what, till one of us croaks, and I am not allowed to mess around with anyone else)
- April Russo (app103)
Yeah, the whole mental capacity thing is getting off topic.
- April Russo (app103)
(Dave - to answer your question about about how pornography could be used in a positive manner to allow prostitution in hopes of controlling the spread of STDs and provide safety for the parties involved...I think I might've missed that one. I've read about this, and am contemplating - but would you point me to where you posed the question? *sheepish grin*)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
This is definitely off-topic - but April, you said, "I believe in most states the mentally ill or underdeveloped can't legally enter into a marriage contract if they are officially declared incompetent and incapable of making that type of decision." - and you're correct. However, the process of incompetency declaration is a difficult one, tbh, and people who are mentally ill (by...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
April - I think you may have misunderstood my points. Take the church out of the equation if you wish, there are legal implications to a marriage due to the fact you need the state to bind the contract (marriage license, proper official presiding, etc.) if you wish the contract to be binding in a civil sense. You don't need the state to bind the contract in any other contractual form so it is different than any other contract.
- Martha
ProsePetals (aka Denise) - you asked for clarification on my statement "I don't believe agree with either church or state's position on anything but marriage equality" short answer is that there should be marriage equality guaranteed by all states. The state should recognize same sex marriages not because of a contractual argument but because of equal protection and due process arguments - constitutional ones.
- Martha
If marriage isn't one man and one woman, then what's so special about two? Why not three people, four people...?
- Victor Ryden
Because unlike other contracts which are simply between two individuals, this one includes the oversight of a third party, the state. You can't be legally married without the license, the recognized official and the other legal trappings. Two people agreeing to be married doesn't by itself make a legally binding marriage contract recognized under state law. So you have to look to state and federal anti-discrimination and civil rights laws instead for the challenge.
- Martha
Hmmm... two thoughts. (1) Gay men have benefited from the male dominant aspect of our culture, though the explanation is incredibly lengthy (from a conversation with a friend of mine, which I'd need permission to quote him anyway). And (2) re-read your comment there...do you not see this as a disparity? (I *do* get what you're saying from a heterosexual male standpoint, but stop and think about the implications...there is a distinct disparity there.)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I don't know...which is why I'm asking. On the one hand, gay men (though not as accepted with straight men as a general rule) have benefited from male dominance in society that they've been "freer" in their convention of female disparagement ("bleeders", "fag hags" etc)...and among peers, this behavior has been accepted, since misogyny would be "acceptable" - which has evolved over...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
(oh, and I'm not suggesting that these are *your* opinions specifically - I'm asking why do you think these opinions exist...just so we're clear. *smile*)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
*ahem* Now that I've composed myself...yes, I figured that was precisely what it was. The "aesthetic appeal" of the female form, which is used as a frequent excuse....erm, I mean *reason*... ;) Okay, here's the thing about that. Homosexuality is homosexuality - and has little to do with "visual appeal" except from the heterosexual half of the house, if that makes sense. And from...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
To say that the female form is aesthetically more appealing? Yes - that is a traditionally accepted view from an artistic perspective. But the direction of the statement - it fully holds water. Women have also been conditioned by the same male-dominant viewpoints. All we have to do is go back and consider your earlier question of pornography...what sells, why it sells, to whom it is...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Hard to say. Because of the historic physical strength used as a means over overtaking - and of course the "beauty" of Victorian thinking...it's a moot point. Human nature says no, that it would be no different had the roles been reversed.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Personally, I believe that to overcome the b.s. - several things must happen...and I doubt they will happen in my lifetime. First, the responsibility for equality/egalitarianism is everyone's - and because of that, *genuine* egalitarianism will likely never be achieved. Because we live in an essential binary, there will likely always be an adversarial stance one way or an other (because...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Why would there be. Men can do anything women can do, apart from breastfeeding, and vice versa.
- Rene Wirtz
I understand your point - but in practice here in the real world, have you made any observations in general that might suggest that the roles and expectations demonstrate any type of gender disparity?
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I think it goes further than economics. It's embedded in our multicultural society (here in the US - and I'm limiting the thoughts to the US). Think - "All in the Family", "Father Knows Best", "The Brady Bunch"...and before we say - oh, but those are from the 60s - take a look at the gender normatives and expectations. Yes, there is a noticeable shift - but as a child of the 70s, I'm...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Now then, insofar as what my household is like *now*? It is a team effort. EVERYONE in the house is involved (except the infant, of course *wink*). My husband picks up my slack without a 2nd thought. The only thing that I do pretty much exclusively is cook (though both of my older kids have been getting cooking lessons, and both can manage a kitchen pretty decently...when they've a mind to, that is...lol)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
@Denise: I agree with you on the influence of TV shows like the one you mentioned and a large part also has to do with the religious backgrounds of most households, because in the church, any church really, inequality between men and women is still actively preached: a woman's duty is to provide the king of the house with comfort and children.
- Rene Wirtz
@Dave: do you think it was her job or her "job"?
- Rene Wirtz
OK, let me rephrase: if she was not able to make dinner, would you consider that a failure in her job? And I agree with you, running a household is a very very difficult job.
- Rene Wirtz
Do you mean that she took care of children, cooked, and cleaned for a living? Was she paid for that? (I'm not being sarcastic - it's a sincere question, as there are people who do that - I know people who work in various respite positions and do that...which is why I'm asking...) Or do you mean *she* considered attending hearth and home her personal occupation (housewife & mother)?
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Cool. :) And yes - it is among the *toughest* jobs around. I stay home for a number of reasons, and I love being here for my kids - but I've never been the "housewife" type. I respect (tremendously) those who are. *nod* Modern feminism has done a disservice (imho) to women who *choose* to be housewives...scorning women who honestly prefer attending hearth & home to the outside workforce. I'm a supporter of choice, regardless. :)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
*chuckle* As I've since learned, there is an enormous difference between European/French feminism and American feminism. I understand why/how the extremes came into play (with the face of Gloria Steinem as poster child - even while her expressed views are far from unreasonable) - given the history involved, and how many women fully take for granted how far the women's movement has come...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Topic of the moment, just to get discussion started - circumcision in males. Pros? Cons? How, if at all, is male infant circumcision comparable to female circumcision?
Hmmm...I'd guess getting a part of you cut off might create some resentment - but I wonder why more men don't share that sentiment? I'd also be curious as to sexual response in men (dunno how many there are, but there must be *some* out there) who were circumcised in adulthood AFTER becoming sexually active - and if the level of pleasure is any different.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
To the subject of reasoning, the American medical system has shifted, fortunately, in recognition of the fact that the matter of education on proper care of foreskin has overshadowed any "benefit" derived from hygienic factors initially used as justification for chopping off a portion of the male genitalia - and among many other excuses given, self-esteem factors for being "different...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
To female circumcision - from what I have been able to surmise from different sources, the *only* reason for performance is to do with elimination of sexual pleasure and "insurance" against infidelity. In men, the religious foundation, from what I have been able to determine, is also rooted in sexual pleasure (pun unintended). There is something fundamentally disturbing (to me) about...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Regarding the pre/post - yep - that is the issue I've encountered with most men who I know that are circumcised. There is no way they can know, due to lack of experience "pre". // LOL @ the inch...I've only observed *one* circumcision, and that was my older son's. I don't have any idea what differences reside in infant/child/adult circumcisions in terms of measurements (and I won't...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
If a non-circumcised male is raised in a culture where circumcision is most common in comparison to non-circumcised males, it is very likely he will come across a situation very frequently with women that will view him as "not normal" and these thoughts will be on their minds during sex. That's going to make his love life less than optimal. If he decides to get circumcised, then that...
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- April Russo (app103)
*ponders* Interesting point that I'd never thought much about. When I was younger, the idea of an uncircumcised penis -while not "bad"- was just unusual to me. The societal "norms" are certainly a consideration - however for the man, I wonder if it might not be better (speculating here) to at least try to educate the woman he's with about the realities of the purpose of the foreskin in...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Not much to add, but I've heard women discuss how "gross" they find uncircumcised penes to be. I tried half-heartedly to disagree, but was quickly shouted down and didn't bother pressing the point. Based on my personal experience, I believe that from a strictly physical perspective circumcision reduces sexual pleasure for both men and women. It's a shame that it's still so widely practiced.
- Lo is a Quitter
Out of curiosity, Lo...not that this makes any difference, but what were the ages of the women who said this? Were they American? I'm just curious about source/perspective/generational matters. :)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Various ages, mostly 30s-50s. American, mostly wealthy, all addicts of some sort. This took place in an expensive rehab facility.
- Lo is a Quitter
Lo: *ponders age/status of women* -- This is just my off-the-top suspicion, but given the ages (in consideration to my own age, and generational likelihood), the majority of boys who were born in that age demographic were circumcised, so there is an almost expected proscription towards acceptance of non-circumcised penes. Only in the last decade or so have I seen the gradual shift.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Dave: LOL...just my 2 cents on this one...I don't know that I'll ever be fully convinced that size doesn't matter - though I understand the laws of averages AND have a full appreciation for experiential knowledge/expertise. This isn't a matter of *solely* "too small" - but ALSO of "too large"...*shudders* That said, it's not *just* a mean thing to do...it is a form of unnecessary...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Not a poor attempt - a successful outcome...that was funny. Leave it to me to get too serious...*sheepish grin*
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I don't really have much to add other then agreement with circumcision being something I see no reason to further. I think the cleanliness argument would be analogous to asking if cutting off a girls labia majora would be reasonable as it eliminates a fold that needs to be cleaned. It sounds really extreme, but is the concept any different? I think women being disgusted by an uncircumcised penis, that's just ridiculous. (And I agree with Denise about size :)
- Heather
Denise you get 10000 points for using the plural "penes," which is my favorite
- Lo is a Quitter
"Marital rape and starvation of wives have government approval in Afghanistan. This article in the UK Daily Mail describes a new law allowing husbands to starve their wives for refusing sex. The law has passed just days before Thursday’s presidential election, in which current president Hamid Kazai hopes for re-election, according to the Mail. I don’t know where to begin with this. Shall I mention my personal mainstream media beef, pointing out that the article barely touches on the issue before changing subjects? Shall I point out that the writer, having written a lead statement that a new law permits a husband to starve his wife for refusing sex, still finds the need to attribute a statement that the law is repressive to “critics?” I’m pretty sure we all can agree that torture for sex is repressive. But to maintain “objectivity” the writer attributes the criticism."
- Steven Perez
from Bookmarklet
Steven, good coverage of the story criticism. I just thought of a blog you might find interesting, it does incisive analysis of religion news and how it is covered by the media. http://www.getreligion.org/
- Micah Wittman
Military-related multi-layered subject (U.S. military-specific), Part 2: Should there be limitations on female military assignments and duties? If yes, what limitations? If no, why not?
So...here's where I am curious as to perspective. Ironically, my dad is the person who told me he thinks Selective Service should be open to *both* genders - but feels that pregnant women should not be in the military. *blink* If a woman in the military is pregnant, does that answer change, if only temporarily?
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
No, not based on sex. Military assignments and duties should be based on mental and physical abilities. If a job requires being able to lift 100 lb weights, then someone who is physically incapable of this -- whether they're a 5'1" woman or a 6'3" man -- should not get the assignment. And I'd say pregnancy, along with other temporary "disabling" conditions, should get anyone transferred...
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- Ladybug Heather
Incidentally, I'm in agreement. :) However, if you talk to men in the military, the answers are vastly different.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
*laughing* Uhm...yeah...interact with them on a daily basis...then get back with me on that. ;)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I can see if there are times when in other parts of the world certain interactions with locals would be easier for men or women, giving them priority in positions that frequent those interactions would make sense. I mostly mean things like information gathering and interviewing where women might be suspicious of men or men would not be respectful towards women. Other then that if...
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- Heather
*nod* International customs are a HUGE factor...and bring a different dimension into the subject of gender disparity on varying levels.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Well, we can look to certain Asian cultures (Japanese, Korean) and Middle Eastern (Saudi) - and I can tell you that the level of respect afforded to women is very low, and in the case of Saudi - to the point that in professional situations, they are patronized, if not ignored entirely. I don't know how much that has changed (if at all) in recent years. Korean culture is very male...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Email sent - but I found a couple of examples. Unfortunately, I can't simply send the link because they are academic library secure links - but I can paste an abstract (since it's public). This abstract is from the article: "Cultural differences in family, marital, and gender-role values among immigrants and majority members in the Netherlands" (from International Journal of Psychology,...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
I'm about to post a picture taken from a presentation that offers a few stereotypes... :) Once I get a reply from my friend, I'll post the link here.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Military-related multi-layered subject (U.S. military-specific), Part 1: Should women between 18-25 be required to sign up for Selective Service (conscription)? If yes, why? If no, why not?
On a similar note - should there be, then, a limitation on conscription if the woman is pregnant when she discovers she's been drafted? Should there (and this one is tough for many women) be a requirement for some sort of mandated form of birth control for women who are drafted? (insofar as increased risk of sexual assault &/or STDs - that much is gender-neutral because it's a risk endemic to the subject, based on stats - though you & I agree on it.)
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
*ponders* No, I don't know that is what I'm stating in its entirety. The data for women in combat zones as actual combatants is comparatively limited to appx the past 19 years - and I haven't looked up the specifics of sexual *assault* on men - however the incidents of contracting STDs BY men in combat situations is traceable back decades (I'm thinking here in the sheer volume of...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
Ah...*smile*...that elaboration is precisely what I'm referring to with respect to men in the military. There is a tendency to protect - which puts them at increased risk (and is one of the classic arguments against women in the service in general - regardless of the data out there which suggests that women are, by far, more vicious than men in a life-threatening situation). It's the...
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- ProsePetals (aka Denise)
And I happen to agree with your point there...I'm just saying that if an average military man (branch regardless), the typical response is protectionary. In *that* sense, there is an inhibiting factor in *practice* - whereas in theory it shouldn't matter except where physical limitations of the 2nd half of the 2nd trimester and the entire 3rd would be physically impossible.
- ProsePetals (aka Denise)