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Dave Slusher
The whole #amazonfail brouhaha actually is an example of why I push back on the whole Gillmor "supreme importance of realtime data flow" thing. I think giving people time to think before reacting isn't a bad thing. Less real time, more quality time.
Dead on, Dave. I don't have any problem with people expressing their opinion, but I agree that realtime isn't the best way to make actual meaningful decisions about issues. You need validation of what's happening, background info, etc. Otherwise, it's just herd mentality. - Ken Kennedy
typical contrary evil genius. only problem: it's not one or the other. - Steve Gillmor
Just like in combat, reaction time in every domain has been reduced by a factor of ten. I hope Amazon does an "after action review" to learn from this one. That's the key. - Tom Guarriello
Steve, do you think there is some Schrodinger's cat situation at play? Either #amazonfail warriors reacted without thinking or they didn't. Both simultaneously is not an option. - Dave Slusher
validation, debate, investigation are all part of the real time flow -- part of creating quality. - Cliff Gerrish
Hey Dave, did you delete one of your threads? - Scoble, Alex Scoble
Interesting strategery, laying theoretical upsides against empirically observed downsides. - Dave Slusher
Alex, no. Not sure what you are talking about. - Dave Slusher
hey this telephone we're talking on is squeezing my brain. click. - Steve Gillmor
Ahh, I figured it out. Just a brief moment of dementia. I commented on this similar thread http://beta.friendfeed.com/willia4... and for some reason thought it was created by you, heh. Oops. - Scoble, Alex Scoble
Put another way, some of you are saying "real time can give more time for analysis to happen and people to react better." I'm saying, "Yes but it didn't." - Dave Slusher
Yeah, I'd disagree with anyone saying that real time gives more time for analysis. Ask any cop in a dangerous situation about what real time does for their ability to analyze and make good decisions. - Scoble, Alex Scoble
One of the ways I used to deal with flame wars (this is BBS/GEnie era) is to put myself on mandatory 1 hour minimum delay. If the conversation made me so mad my hands shook, that value climbed to 12 hours. Every unsatisfactory interaction I've had on FF in the last 6 months involved a short cycle pile on that I wished I could enforce a delay on. - Dave Slusher
It's in no way a failure of realtime, it's the failure of disconnected retweets instead of threaded conversations. If it had blown up with the use of likes and dialogue instead of misinformation in tweets and blog posts we could have gotten to the bottom of it sooner. - Christian Burns
I don't understand why you're blaming real time. I have intentionally not commented on the Amazon issues until I understand them better. That's a choice, not driven by real time or delayed time. Controlling one's reactions to real-time data is not the responsibility of real-time data. It's an individual one. - Karoli
When the ethic is for everyone to get the drop on each other, this sort of thing happens. We hate it in the 24 hour cable channels, why do y'all love it in Twitter? - Dave Slusher
Karoli, I'm blaming the culture of twitchy hyper-responsivity. If that isn't what real time is trying to enable, what good is it? - Dave Slusher
If slow food is generally healthier food and a healthier lifestyle, why is the analog for information so controversial to y'all? - Dave Slusher
dave why are you responding to this in real time? seems contradictory and not a little ironic at best - Steve Gillmor
Sometimes real time is useful. At the very least, it sparks an investigation. There's a difference between an investigation and jumping to a conclusion. - Francine Hardaway
So let me refine some. ~50 AD, Apostle Paul: "The love of money is the root of all evil." Note, not money but the love of it. 2009 AD, Apostate Dave: "The love of realtime and retweeting as quickly as possible is the root of fiasco." - Dave Slusher
you're blaming the messenger, or in this case the tools, for what some of us like nd appreciate. I don't mind you spamming me with this thread, why do you? - Steve Gillmor
by the way dave, I assume you're not using the realtime view but preferring to pause it and refresh at your leisure. - Steve Gillmor
Sheesh, Steve...can you maybe be a little less prickly over this? I think Dave's larger point is more than valid. He mentioned the "G"-word, though, and you appeared and started poking him. C'mon...you think you could relax and consider the actual issue rather than the fact that he dissented against the gospel? *rolls eyes* - Ken Kennedy
Ken, I appreciate your having my back but please everyone, let's walk this back from the ad hominem. I love Steve, even when he thinks I'm not right in the head and vice versa. - Dave Slusher
No worries! I like Steve and the Gillmor Gang as well. Feel the love. - Ken Kennedy
My point is that the data toolset is currently outrunning human cognition and judgment. It's like giving the toddler a weed whacker. They might well edge the yard beautifully but that might not be how the smart money bets. Everyone in this thread might be responsible with the tools but demonstrably many are not. - Dave Slusher
I'm not saying "turn off the tools", I'm saying "This may not be the infotopia we are being sold." - Dave Slusher
I saw this in real time and "liked it." - Robert Scoble
What was the brouhaha? URL please. - Robert Scoble
Robert, are you being ironic about #amazonfail ? If you liked it 3 hours after I posted it, you are really pushing the definition of real time. - Dave Slusher
Am I out of the loop or are you talking about http://community.livejournal.com/brutal_... - Holger Eilhard
Dave: I agree 100% with "My point is that the data toolset is currently outrunning human cognition and judgment." but I don't think that's anything new, is it? That's been a problem since the "toolset" was just a guy standing up in front of a crowd turning them into a mob in real time. - Ken Sheppardson
BTW, if this is to be another of these pile-on threads, let me just say now: Go register for CREATE South - http://www.createsouth.org/ April 25th, Myrtle Beach. - Dave Slusher
People say stupid things in real time and negative real time. Rarely does less timeliness gate stupidity . You have co-mingled timeliness and insight. A first order category error. - Jim Posner
Dave: I saw this on the real time feed. I don't get all things in real time. I do sleep once in a while, too. The engagement this item was getting in real time brought it into my view when I was working on the screen. Now that I'm engaging on it, I see everyone posting in real time. Jim just commented, for instance, while I was talking here. - Robert Scoble
Dave: real time is not forcing me to think faster, just gives an opportunity for interaction WHILE something is on our mind. This is far better than the world of 2000 when it took hours for us to see each other's blogs. - Robert Scoble
Robert, you spanked me publicly for reblogging something Andrew Baron posted about you leaving PodTech a few years ago, where I didn't stop to consider something well enough and just ran with it. You calling me "full of shit" is still a high google hit on my name. This is me having learned the lesson you taught me. - Dave Slusher
Dave: good point. - Robert Scoble
Of course now everyone is searching Google for that, which will raise that result even higher as we all click on it. Heheh. - Robert Scoble
Here's the Google search you talk of: http://www.google.com/search... - Robert Scoble
Of course I left PodTech four months later. So all things become true if you wait long enough, I guess. - Robert Scoble
yes sir, that is it. Even without your name qualifying it, it's high on the list for me. That thing from Chuck Olsen was also the first Tweet I ever saw, which left me snakebit for a long time. - Dave Slusher
The more interesting post of yours, though, is this one: http://www.evilgeniuschronicles.org/wordpre... - Robert Scoble
I am still trying to escape from PR people. - Robert Scoble
Just tell them to send the tequila my way, Robert. ;) - Scoble, Alex Scoble
I can tell Dave isn't using the new beta of friendfeed yet. His replies are too slow. :-) - Robert Scoble
Robert: Or he's off thinking. - Ken Sheppardson
Or trying to find the "block" button again. :-) - Robert Scoble
And I still haven't joined Facebook. In the time since I posted that, I have joined and dropped Twitter; joined and used FriendFeed and then dialed back that interaction. I think the sentiment of that post holds up better than most. - Dave Slusher
... or I have a day job - Dave Slusher from IM
Real time threads are like a fire bell, it tells everyone there is a problem that needs to be taken care of, however it is is not the best time to do an investigation. - Kim Landwehr
Dave: day jobs do retard social networking participation, I've found. :-) - Robert Scoble
I thought we were all supposed to be making a living commenting on FriendFeed discussions by now. What's the deal? - Ken Sheppardson
Are there perhaps some topics where we benefit from a real-time response - e.g. a plane crash and others that don't? How would condemning Amazon for alleged censorship benefit from being done 'urgently' as opposed to accurately? Aren't a lot of people joining in because they want to be where the attention is? - Robin Barooah
I don't mind the real-time responses of their customers. It gives them true reaction-based feedback, and i'm sure that their marketing department is intersted in that. What i wouldn't want is for Amazon (or any other company) to make a similarly "real-time" decision on how to handle the problem. Their actions should be "less real time, more quality time" (via Dave Slusher) - Matt Danger
+1 Matt - Robin Barooah
Matt, I agree with you, but can you separate that out? Most of the customer criticism I've is in part or total taking Amazon to task for the slowness of their response. - Dave Slusher
Dave: at Microsoft I had a tactic I used for things like this. I simply acknowledged that we saw the thread and needed time to get an official response out. That way you stop people from throwing metaphorical rocks through your front windows to get your attention and you give your internal team enough time to get a decent answer done. - Robert Scoble
As a unrecovered packrat, I also recognize the general strategy justifying real time. It's the same one I use to justify the clutter that fills my house, the 1 time in 500 when it proves valuable. Mostly, it just makes my life harder. - Dave Slusher
Robert, we've just crossed the point where I'd call the Amazon response slow (if there hasn't been one.) Now it seems reasonable to me, calling them on it at 8 PM EDT on Easter Sunday was just silly. - Dave Slusher
Dave: Do you have the same issues with, say, the telephone vs. writing letters by hand? - Ken Sheppardson
...and that's honestly not intended to be snarky. - Ken Sheppardson
Ken, when there is a meltdown at work and my phone rings off the hook with executives wanting an update every 3 minutes, yes. I have to stop answering the phone and just email them if I am to fix the problem. - Dave Slusher
But should we turn back the clock on the technology or just recognize that we need to change the way we use it? - Ken Sheppardson
(see also "Luddites") - Ken Sheppardson
Ken, what makes you think my pushback isn't on the way we use it? - Dave Slusher
Well, I can see this both ways. These companies now are huge global corporations that run 24/7. They are willing to take our money 24/7 so need to be supporting us 24/7 too. Zappos does that with 400 employees who are on Twitter. My Toyota died on a Sunday and it really pissed me off when I couldn't get support. On the other hand, you are right, we need to be more patient as a people and all this real time stuff isn't helping us do that. - Robert Scoble
Weren't people angry about Amazon's slow response because they thought Amazon was guilty of something? i.e. they were holding Amazon guilty until proven innocent? In this regard I think it was important that Amazon did *not* snap to attention to get a response out in real-time - because that would be establishing a pattern of needing to respond to every misinformed mob. - Robin Barooah
"I think giving people time to think..." Do you mean "giving" or "taking?" Or, "forcing?" Because here you all are chatting about the quality of the information, as if anyone at this point can really know. This real-time flurry is very efficient at sifting, sorting, and reacting to complex info. Think of yourself as a single cell in a great big investigation organism. Fast. Cool. No way could Amazon have harnessed this much power alone. - Nancy Folsom
Dave: Sorry, I guess I'm getting this all confounded with the pushback I hear RE the changes in FriendFeed, etc., with people calling for things to be rolled back. - Ken Sheppardson
Robert: you know - over time it might actually help us learn to be patient - I'm sure there are some people who added vitriol to the outrage who are now feeling embarrassed about reacting without verifying. - Robin Barooah
I haven't been following the #amazonfail brouhaha but this write-up gives insights into the genesis of the whole affair. http://tehdely.livejournal.com/88823... - Jim Posner
Nancy - how about "requesting?" The seriousness of the accusation should correlate with the care taken to verify the claim. - Dave Slusher from IM
I am reminded of when cellphones started to become popular and people complained that they could now be reached at any time. Some people learned to switch off their phones when they didn't want to be reached - whilst many people still find them a source of stress. - Robin Barooah
Dave- I don't disagree with you if your point is people should be careful about spreading rumors. But that's a fairly bland idea, right? Like don't kick puppies. Sure. I agree. But most of what I read were not accusations, but facts. What wasn't a fact was being shot down as fast as it was voiced. At least where I was. Are you asking for information to come out as a neat package? - Nancy Folsom
Robin- I can still go days without answering my phone. Unplugging. It's teh awesome. - Nancy Folsom
Ken- First, damn you all for such an interesting discussion! But, "real-time." It's not as obvious to me as it seems to be you all what you mean by "real-time." How much time should have passed? And, sadly, that's no guarantee the time will be used to come to any better judgment. IAC, I'm most struck by what this looks like if you pull out far enough you can't see the individual anymore. - Nancy Folsom
Here's Ed Champion calling for an amazon boycott yesterday, full of presumption of guilt. http://www.edrants.com/amazonf... We are better than this. I'd argue this action is the dark underbelly of real time. Calling a business immoral and deciding this is a deliberate business practice requires proof IMO, same as if you were to say it about a neighbor. - Dave Slusher
Epitome of our country on full display, sped up. Emotive decision making is quite embarrassing. Hopefully, these events will kick up our critical thinking skills. - Mona Nomura
Gee, if only there were some way to counter the presumption of guilt in real time... - Cliff Gerrish
The truth has always had trouble getting it's boots on and thanks to real time, it may happen faster. - Jim Posner
Jim, you don't think the most salacious thing will travel farthest and fastest, like say is happening RIGHT THIS SECOND? - Dave Slusher
Let me reiterate this one more time - I think the culture of real time is harmful, and I don't like the fast twitch desire to treat news inputs and outputs like a first person shooter. This is not about technology, this is about people being spastic. You can't point to isolated successes without factoring in the general wear and tear and blood pressure elevation across everyone involved in the twitchosphere. Taken in total, it's not worth it to me. - Dave Slusher
In putting money where mouth is, I have a huge amount of CREATE South work to do tonight. No real time for me the rest of the night. Did I mention April 25th in Myrtle Beach, http://www.createsouth.org/ ? Come participate and tell me how wrong my views are. I'll even feed you free lunch. - Dave Slusher
No matter what basic clock speed the system is running at, it's always going to take more cycles to read and comprehend the entirety of an event or what somebody else has to say, do due diligence, think, and formulate a logical response vs just respond with a knee-jerk emotional reaction to a headline. It's certainly possible that as the system runs faster and faster, it's more likely that the knee-jerk reactions will cause things to go unstable, without giving more thoughtful feedback a chance to damp things out. I don't think you can slow down the clock, or prevent the emotional twitches. What's left is to try to speed up the reasoned, level-headed responses and amplify their effect. I think we have to actively try to do that, rather than just throw up our hands and walk away. - Ken Sheppardson
Dave-Misinformation has always traveled faster than the truth. Just ask the Meher Baba folks in MB http://www.mehercenter.org/ :-) - Jim Posner
Does anyone have any opinion about why Amazon got such an intense reaction when there are so many other bad organizations that don't seem to draw such ire? New thread: http://beta.friendfeed.com/rbarooa... - Robin Barooah
based on Amazon's statement, there wasn't anything nefarious going on. Just a very widespread and unfortunate bug in their catalog system. - Garrick Van Buren
Everbody's just cruising along with all sorts of preconceptions, opinions, and cognitive filters and as soon as something comes along in the real time stream to trigger them, it's like sharks smelling blood in the water. - Ken Sheppardson
Matthew: You're more optimistic than I am. ;-) - Ken Sheppardson