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Global Politics & News
All about Global Politics - Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists. or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy. (Ernest Benn). This group will Cover News & politics from the Middle East & from all around our globe.
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Oasis, Conservative Bloggers, World News & Politics, Global Politics & News, Politifide
Copenhagen climate summit: 1,200 limos, 140 private planes and caviar wedges - Telegraph #climategate #copenhagen - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth...
midnightgolfer and Roberto Bonini liked this
Have some hypocrisy with your #climategate
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Oasis, Conservative Bloggers, Politifide, World News & Politics, Global Politics & News
Saudi Arabia calls for 'climategate' investigation - - POLITICO.com #climategate #copenhagen - http://www.politico.com/news...
Roberto Bonini liked this
I agree, there MUST be an investigation of this and all sources for climate science.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
The science is in and everyone agrees!
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
LOL! "I'm doing science and I'm still alive." -Portal
- pitlord
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Oasis, Conservative Bloggers, Politifide, World News & Politics, Global Politics & News
Denmark does not include shipping industry when calculating annual carbon footprint - NYPOST.com #climategate #copenhagen - http://www.nypost.com/p...
"In this hotbed of homogeneity, where global warming is a sacred assumption for the faithful, 15,000 people will come together from 192 countries to pray for two weeks over what can be done to save the Earth from certain doom." Did he just call you a homo? >.>
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Oasis, Conservative Bloggers, Politifide, World News & Politics, Global Politics & News
Tempers Flare In Climate Change Flap - Coop's Corner - CBS News #climategate #copenhagen - http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs...
If the climate scientists' methods and findings are so ironclad why are they so upset about further investigation? Don't they want their findings and methods verified?
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Oasis, Conservative Bloggers, Politifide, World News & Politics, Global Politics & News
VIDEO:Gordon Brown answers young people's questions #climategate #copenhagen - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...
"Mr Gore said that to avoid the worst ravages of climate change world leaders would have to come together again to set more drastic reductions than those now planned." This is coming from the guy who insisted that the core temperature of the earth is "millions of degrees." o.O
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Oasis, Conservative Bloggers, Politifide, World News & Politics, Global Politics & News
UK University to probe integrity of climate data #climategate #copenhagen - http://www.breitbart.com/article...
"A British university said Thursday it would investigate whether scientists at its prestigious Climatic Research Unit fudged data on global warming." Well, I'm sure glad that the University responsible for allowing falsified climate data to be published is going to investigate their own scandal. That makes me feel MUCH better. >.>
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Bloggers, Conservative Oasis, Politifide, World News & Politics, Global Politics & News
Americans Skeptical of Science Behind Global Warming - Rasmussen Reports™ - http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_...
"Most Americans (52%) believe that there continues to be significant disagreement within the scientific community over global warming."
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Bloggers, Conservative Oasis, Politifide, Global Politics & News, World News & Politics
India will not sign binding emission cuts-minister #copenhagen #climategate - http://www.reuters.com/article...
"India would however accept international verification of reductions if supported by financing and technology transfers." More evidence that nobody really cares about climate change, they just care about making money.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
In other words, the human race in the collective, as a blind and greedy mob, may be too stupid to protect its own survival.
- Sean McBride
book(Jared Diamond; Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed; 2005; Penguin http://www.amazon.com/Collaps...) "Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed is the glass-half-empty follow-up to his Pulitzer Prize-winning Guns, Germs, and Steel. While Guns, Germs, and Steel explained the geographic and environmental...
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- Sean McBride
Funny I would agree with your first statement. Although it leads me to a very different conclusion than yours. Namely, that we exist and continue to thrive is evidence of a divine will guiding the evolution of the universe. You second point is pretty weak. So, some guy writes a book about his theories that ecological factors were the main catalyst in the demise of certain societies. Maybe they were, maybe the were not. That's why they are called theories, not facts.
- pitlord
Of course, even if there WAS some looming ecological danger, we'd be blinded by the lies coming from the climate change propaganda machine disguised as research.
- pitlord
Pitlord: Which websites and publications do you use as your primary sources on understanding climate change? I created a Google Custom Search page for my favorite sources: http://www.google.com/cse...
- Sean McBride
Pitlord: to answer my own question: since I am not a climate scientist, and cannot undertand the more arcane dimensions of climate science, I rely heavily on the best general interest science-oriented publications to try to understand climate science issues: American Scientist, Economist, National Geographic, Nature, New Scientist, New York Times, Science Magazine, Scientific American,...
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- Sean McBride
Sean, much like you I refer to a variety of sources for my information. In every case regarding scientific data I compare the published information to the scientific method we've learned since childhood. The result is that the data coming from climate change alarmists seems to ignore the principle of collecting EMPIRICAL data. Especially when they are willing to dismiss or even alter the data to fit their desired conclusions.
- pitlord
Pitlord: which specific sources do you most rely on?
- Sean McBride
I don't have any specific sources for climate data. I have a large collection of rss feeds from all of the major news outlets, blogs, journals, etc. I have search engines and a good working knowledge of search operators to make my results more relevant to my needs. Ultimately, it is not the name of a source that counts but the integrity of it's data. It seems the record is beginning to show that the data upon which the climate change alarmists depend is tainted.
- pitlord
What counts is the level of expertise and intelligence of the sources who are analyzing and interpreting the data. Sources matter greatly, which I is why I choose mine carefully.
- Sean McBride
Intelligence Squared Debate - Atheism is the new fundamentalism - Other - Soft Machine³ - Arts Tech and Other - http://www.softmachinecubed.com/other...
"This was the first IQ² debate broadcast live, with an associated twitter hashtag. A few questions were taken from the twitter stream. Note: many of the uses of the hashtag since yesterday are “hashtag spam.”" http://twitter.com/intelli... http://twitter.com/#search...
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
from Bookmarklet
Bob Herbert: A Tragic Mistake | New York Times - http://www.nytimes.com/2009...
Sean McBride liked this
“After going through an extended period of highly ritualized consultations and deliberations, the president has arrived at a decision that never was much in doubt, and that will prove to be a tragic mistake. It was also, for the president, the easier option. It would have been much more difficult for Mr. Obama to look this troubled nation in the eye and explain why it is in our best interest to begin winding down the permanent state of warfare left to us by the Bush and Cheney regime. It would have taken real courage for the commander in chief to stop feeding our young troops into the relentless meat grinder of Afghanistan, to face up to the terrible toll the war is taking — on the troops themselves and in very insidious ways on the nation as a whole.”
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
Dubai model was the vision of one man | Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article...
Alex Scoble, Olivia Lovag, Ahsan Ali aka. Slick and 2 other people liked this
“The ‘Dubai vision,’ which has suffered a crushing blow from the freewheeling Gulf emirate's sudden debt crisis, is the creation of one man [Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum] who failed to apply the rules of open governance...”
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
cf. Bernanke
- David HC Soul
from BuddyFeed
The Militarization of Sex | Foreign Policy - http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...
winckel liked this
And not a day goes by without learning something new!!
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
from Bookmarklet
Report: Dubai World refuses to sell assets cheaply | AFP - http://news.yahoo.com/s...
Ahsan Ali aka. Slick, David HC Soul, Roberto Bonini and 3 other people liked this
“Dubai World, the heavily indebted United Arab Emirates conglomerate behind plunging global markets, is refusing to sell off its assets cheaply, a senior company official said in a report on Sunday...”
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
Britain called. We want the QE2 back.
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
You know, I'd DPWorlds US ports are in trouble, I wonder if they would ask the US Govt for a bailout. Or at least to take the troubled assets off thier hands.
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
Pakistan's president hands over nuclear powers | BBC News - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...
"President Asif Ali Zardari has handed control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal to his prime minister, in an apparent bid to ease political pressure."
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
Iraq offers incentive to intermarry - USATODAY.com - http://www.usatoday.com/news...
"Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashemi has an unusual proposal to mend some of Iraq's sectarian wounds: He offers mixed couples a $2,000 "gift" if they get married. Before the U.S. invasion, intermarriage between Shiites and Sunnis was fairly common. As sectarian fighting ripped apart the country, intermarriage became a rarity. Now that the security situation is relatively calm, the Iraqi government wants to nudge couples of mixed sects to get hitched, hoping that will repair the relationship between Iraq's majority Shiite and minority Sunni populations."
- Rob Haas
from Bookmarklet
118 Days, 12 Hours, 54 Minutes | Newsweek.com - http://www.newsweek.com/id...
Read up about life and politics in the Philippines - http://pulitikaindio.blogspot.com/
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, Global Politics & News, World News & Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Politifide, Conservative Oasis
Obama: Too much debt could fuel double-dip recession
| Markets
| Markets News
| Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article...
Fulaan liked this
This coming from the TARPMEISTER Obama?!?!? As he's trying to pass a TRILLION dollar healthcare disaster?!?!? This administration must be replaced. Call your senators and tell them to defeat Obamacare if they want to keep their jobs.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
"TARPMEISTER"? You do realize that TARP was a Bush program, right? This is why "conservatives" make me laugh: their tenuous grip on reality and fact.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
I don't remember Bush signing it.
- Spencer
He signed it Oct. 3, 2008. http://www.brainyhistory.com/events...
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Again, tenuous grip on fact...
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Hilarious -- all of these Sarah Palin "conservatives" sound like small children -- third graders in their grasp of facts.
- Sean McBride
intellectually honest, rational conservatives cringe when they see this sort of drivel with the "conservative" moniker attached.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
"Sarah Palin" conservatives. Look, the moonbats have a new saying again. LOL.
- Spencer
Spencer: try focusing on the facts, rather than on what sort of funny nickname you can come up with for people with whom you do not agree. You may find that it helps your cause a bit more.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Obama had a vote on TARP in the Senate. Obama then expanded TARP with his own "stimulus" packages which are a complete disaster. That is reality.
- pitlord
Besides, this thread is about Obama's hypocrisy in warning agains too much government spending as he fights to expand government enough to collapse the whole system so he can replace it with his own Marxist nightmare.
- pitlord
Reality is: TARP passed a republican controlled congress, and was signed by a republican president. Yes, Obama added other stimulus packages, which could be part of the reason that the economy has improved to the degree that it has, or it may not have anything to do with it. Either way, saying "well he did it too" does not relieve Bush or the republicans of responsibility for the massive mess they created.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
And again, "Marxist"? Tenuous grip on fact *and* reality. You are embarrassing yourself.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Oh, so only republicans created the "mess"?
- Spencer
No, Spencer, that is not what I said. What I said was, the republican controlled congress, and the republican president should take responsibility for the mess that was created under their watch.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
I would never say that "only" one side or the other is responsible for the things that happen in this country. That would be the purview of "conservatives" who can't even accept the fact that the explosions in government spending that have led, inexorably to today's giant debt, largely started with Reagan, and the cost of our failed war in Iraq and Bush's unwillingness to focus on...
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- Bren, Not Grinchy
The War in Iraq is not failed, well at least not until Obama got his hands on it. Todays "giant" debt can be blamed on many people, but the fact is Obama has spent more in one year almost, than Bush, Clinton, and Bush combined. Health care "reform" is ridiculous. Anyone who thinks government can do a good job is crazy. They can't even manage a flu vaccine right.
- Spencer
Reality is: the congress has been controlled by the Dems since 06.
- pitlord
Reality is: Obama is a hypocrite and Obamacare would be a complete disaster for generations to come.
- pitlord
My mistake, Pitlord.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
That is an interesting *opinion* pitlord, but not by any measure, a fact. edit: do we need to review the definitions of 'fact' and 'opinion'?
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Bren, it is the liberals like Obama who sanction corporate welfare. Conservatives want to lower taxes and eliminate government spending. The problem with liberals is they actually believe that people like Bush and McCain are conservative.
- pitlord
Pitlord: all politicians sanction corporate welfare because, for the most part, they are all in the pocket of one corporation or another. I've long maintained that the difference between democrats and republicans is which special interest group they are beholden to. Ultimately pitlord, by your definition, there are no "conservatives" in the federal government. Unfortunate for conservatives, eh? I wonder why no one will vote for people like that?
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Bren -- you have posted some very intelligent and insightful comments in this thread.
- Sean McBride
You are mistaking small businesses with corporations. Liberals are in the pockets of huge corporations like Google, Microsoft, Goldman Sachs, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac providing them with bailouts and subsidies that are taken from us taxpayers. Conservatives support small businesses, but rather than give them tax payer's money, they support them by lowering taxes. Which means more money and more jobs for everyone. That was one of the conservative moves that Bush was responsible for.
- pitlord
Obama more than doubles the federal deficit of his predecessor in less than one year and then has the chutzpah to "warn" us about too much debt? That is the epitome of hypocrisy. I wonder why anyone would vote for someone like that. Oh, wait. The last election shows that the people AREN'T voting for someone like that. Obama will be defeated along with his disastrous policies.
- pitlord
Spencer, that was a handy graph, thank you. ^^ http://blog.heritage.org/wp-cont...
- pitlord
Conservatives support small businesses? like Morgan Stanley, Chase, Lehman Brothers, and Wachovia?
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Like the military-industrial complex? The oil industry?
- Sean McBride
yes, Sean... small business like that. edit: you know, mom and pop operations like Halliburton, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon ...
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Morgan Stanley, Chase, Lehman Brothers, and Wachovia are all contributors to liberal causes and politicians.
- pitlord
Most major corporations contribute to both liberal and conservative politicians, pitlord. how many officials from those companies had jobs in Bush's administration, though?
- Bren, Not Grinchy
More companies supported by democrats: Occidental Petroleum, General Electric, AFLAC, Staples, Time Warner all supported by liberal corporate policies.
- pitlord
According to Common Dreams, 53% of money from Microsoft and it's employees went to Republicans, pitlord...
- Bren, Not Grinchy
You're funny, pitlord... what do you mean by 'liberal corporate policies"?
- Bren, Not Grinchy
How many have a job in Obama's administration? How many "czars" does he have now hand picked like WMD Czar, Gary Samore former Director of the Council on Foreign Relations; or Technology Czar - Aneesh Chopra who worked at Morgan Stanley; what about TARP Czar - Herb Allison who worked at Merrill Lynch for 28 years.
- pitlord
Interesting how Common Dreams had to include donations from MS employees to get that number. Microsoft, Google and even Apple are huge supporters of liberal politicians who make it easier for them to keep the smaller competitors out of the market by stacking the deck to keep the "too big to fail" corporations in control while keeping the "greedy business owners" down.
- pitlord
I mean the policies that our congress makes to govern corporations.
- pitlord
The bottom line is Obama is being a hypocrite and any politician who supports his Marxist policies is an enemy of the freedom and liberty that Americans have fought and died for generations to uphold.
- pitlord
when you throw in the word "Marxist" you diminish the quality of your argument, because you make yourself sound ignorant. Obama is a hypocrite, as are most politicians, because compromising your values is the way to get elected. It's unfortunate that that is the case, but such is life. You will notice that there are no politicians at the highest levels that can remain true to their principles because they don't get elected that way, and if they do, they don't stay.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Your failure to recognize Obama's Marxist policies for what they are proves your ignorance.
- pitlord
I've read Karl Marx's works, and those of his disciples -- Obama is no Marxist. He's more a progressive in the tradition of Republican Teddy Roosevelt.
- Sean McBride
ignorance, pitlord? have you ever even read Marx? Do you even know what Marxism is about? I think the hashtag should be #TGOR instead of #TCOT (that's "tenuous grip on reality") ...for you to call me "ignorant" in the same thread where you blame Obama for TARP and equate him with a Marxist is laughable, at best. I'm bored with this nonsensical conversation. If I wanted to listen to Rush Limbaugh, I would listen to Rush Limbaugh, but I don't, because he is full of sh*t, and so are you.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Like you said the problem with Liberals is that they think Bush is a conservative; the problem with "conservatives" is that they think Obama is a Marxist. The problem is: they don't have any idea what a Marxist is -- clearly.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
"Progressive" is the code word for Marxist policies. And yes I've read Marx he advocates destabilizing the economy to shut down the economic engine of capitalism allowing government to step in and take control. All part of his 10 planks.
- pitlord
so now Teddy Roosevelt was a Marxist, too? wow. I'm going to have to hide this thread... "just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in..." #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Pitlord -- you think that Teddy Roosevelt was a Marxist and that the American Progressive movement was Marxist? On what grounds?
- Sean McBride
Left-wing radicals have absconded and bastardized the term "Progressive" for their own use. In it's modern context "progressive" is a code word for Marxist. A quick Google search yielded these two articles which illustrate this point and with which I agree: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guideDe... and http://www.sullivan-county.com/id5...
- pitlord
That may be, but Sean defined what he meant by progressive. Whatever subtext you choose to assign, there really was no ambiguity in what Sean said. #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
from iPhone
Nobody accused Sean of being ambiguous. Regardless of Sean's assertions, or your dismissive attitude, Obama is no Teddy Roosevelt.
- pitlord
He's also no Lenin, Mao or Fidel. I am dismissive because I can not possibly take seriously your assertion that Obama is a Marxist. #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
in a consumer economy the double dip is more likely fueled by spending cuts on a state and federal level, Obama turning 'deficit hawk' with 10% unemployment will sink any recovery in the mire. Deficit games play well on Wall Street but do only damage on Main street -- likely 2010 goes Republican if Obama continues this...
- WarLord
Don't take me seriously, take it from Marx himself. Look at Marx's 10 planks for establishing communism. 1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. Obama recently announced a "bailout" for homeowners where Uncle Sam will take their deed and rent the homeowner's own land back to them. 2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. We've had...
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- pitlord
In that case, we've been a Marxist state for a long time, and the Republicans are no better than the Democrats. Obama, everyone who voted for TARP, all of the union members and leaders in this country (my very Republican uncle will be very unhappy to hear that because he is in a union he is a Marxist) are all Marxists, anyone educated in a public school... No wonder your so-called "True Conservatives" will never be elected. #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
"Marxist" as defined by Pitlord describes the political mainstream among all major political parties in America and Europe (and the rest of the world) for decades.
- Sean McBride
Apparently Sean and Bren fully embrace the Marxist ideology as defined by Karl Marx and welcome the opportunity to have their lives taken over and run by government. Maybe we should develop some kind of political exchange program where we send Marxists like them to countries like China and Cuba in exchange for people from those countries who are willing to work hard to live with freedom and liberty.
- pitlord
David -- if you were a man of principle, wouldn't you move to Jerusalem or to a West Bank settlement? Why don't you? It seems unwise of you to go down the "love it or leave it" path, given your ideological profile, peculiar predilections and divided national loyalties. Regarding my own politics: Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine are two of my greatest heroes among influential...
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- Sean McBride
David -- this is a serious question: which group do you think is the biggest threat to Israel and "the Jews" (you've made it clear that this is the focus of your politics): Marxists? Muslims? Christians? Christian Zionists? Europeans? Arabs? Palestinians? Iranians? left-wing "self-hating" Jews? right-wing militant Jewish nationalists?
- Sean McBride
Sean, the difference between us is that I still believe in the system of checks and balances that our founders put in place to protect our liberties as free men. You seem to believe that men must be coerced to behave in some particular way that YOU deem appropriate. Even from Israel I have internet access and living there does not preclude my American citizenship. As to the differences...
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- pitlord
David -- wait: you are posting from Israel, as an Israeli citizen? And you are arrogantly urging Americans who disagree with your extremist Likud politics to get out of America? Priceless! :) I am curious: are you posting from within the occupied territories?
- Sean McBride
Regarding my views: I consider checks and balances, and habeas corpus, to be sacred principles -- that is why, among other reasons, I strongly opposed the Bush 43 administration. I also believe, along with the Founding Fathers, in the strict separation of church and state and freedom of religion (as well as freedom from religion). Nothing could be further from authentic Americanism than the messianic ethno-religious nationalism you have embraced.
- Sean McBride
Sean, when you learn to stop making assumptions maybe you'll start to find the truth instead of fabricating your own. I am not in Israel and even if I was I would still be an American. There are many people with dual citizenship who vote and pay taxes in both countries. Secondly I have never suggested that anyone be forced to embrace any religion. If you consider checks and balances and...
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- pitlord
Excuse me for being confused in parsing your English prose: you wrote: "Even from Israel I have internet access and living there does not preclude my American citizenship." You know, I am beginning to wonder if the policy of dual citizenship should be revoked -- it has the potential to create too many problems flowing from conflicts of interest. I am the citizen of a single country --...
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- Sean McBride
I actually don't understand what pitlord is trying to say any more. Obama is a Marxist, I am a Marxist, Sean is a Marxist, everyone who doesn't agree with him is automatically a Marxist. That is the default, go-to argument. He doesn't like a policy: must be Marxist. I'm not with Sean in detesting Marx and Marxism, I think the theory is fine, I just don't think it is practical on a large scale. The fact is, on a familial level, almost everyone is a Marxist...
- Bren, Not Grinchy
That is, in our own homes, among our families, most of us practice a sort of communist lifestyle. When people have tried to expand it out to cover nations, and introduced the massive, oppressive state apparatus to enforce it, it has failed miserably by most metrics. In any case, I think the argument that Unions and public schools and a semi-state owned rail system make for a Marxist...
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- Bren, Not Grinchy
Pitlord: I don't know if you saw this or not, but I think you should ... http://ff.im/bGCGo
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Bren -- I think Karl Marx had many important insights into historical, social and economic processes -- everyone should study him. But Marxism-Leninism was a messianic totalitarian ideology which was doomed to spectacular failure from the moment it was conceived. As for Pitlord's used of the word "Marxist" as a smear term -- I suspect it's a synonym for "Amalek" (look it up). This...
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- Sean McBride
Bren, I'm glad you are finally starting to understand Obama's Marxist policies. Also, I'd like to know how "Marxist" can be a smear term if it's true? It is telling how Mr. McBride has chosen to link his every negative assessment with Judeo-Christian theology though he was hesitant to attribute Muslim zealotry to the Ft. Hood shooter.
- pitlord
I am actually stunned that you misread what I wrote so thoroughly, pitlord. If you were curious why I was dismissive of you, your last comment is exactly why. Bending what you see to fit your narrow and dogmatic worldview is not productive, and does not contribute to a better understanding of your vision of how things should be. In fact, I would be hard-pressed to explain what it is you...
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- Bren, Not Grinchy
But the fact that you are now trying to twist my words into some sort of tacit agreement with your nonsense is more clear evidence of your intellectual dishonesty, and your #TGOR. I have tried not to resort to any sort of personal attacks, and I will continue to refrain, but I must say that your silliness is rather disappointing from a debate point of view.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Wow, you can't even recognize sarcasm? And my view is "narrow and dogmatic" because I don't agree with you? If you completely fail to recognize the fact that Obama is pushing America in a decidedly Marxist direction then what kind of discussion you want to have? If you can't recognize the fact that our capitalist, free-market, republican system of government is the framework upon which our great society is built then where is our conversation supposed to lead?
- pitlord
pitlord: your sarcasm didn't translate well in written form, sorry I didn't catch it. I've already addressed the fact that Obama is not pushing America anywhere remotely like a Marxist direction, so I suppose there is no discussion to have. You are locked in on a belief that is not shared by very many people, that is not well supported by fact, and that ignores so many factors as to be described accurately only as narrow.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Actually, I am not sure why I am still engaged in this pointless circle jerk of a conversation. I'm never going to be able to get you to see reality, and you are never going to seduce me into your madness. All I can be is thankful that your brand of political discourse will always be marginalized, because rational people will not buy in. #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Please forgive me, I was unclear with my sarcasm. Unfortunately, I took your abject exaggeration of the fact that I clearly showed that Obama does indeed support Marxist policies for America as an indication that you had no interest in a discussion. I'm sorry but you never addressed Obama's Marxist tendencies with any facts, you just exaggerated my points to make them appear unreasonable. You simply have done nothing to dispute his Marxist ideologies.
- pitlord
Of course, you are dismissing the fact that "my brand" of political discourse is not only on the rise but is dominant among Americans. You can choose to believe whatever you want, but as this last election has shown and as we will see in the next election a little less than a year from now, the majority of Americans are looking for truly conservative candidates who support a free and democratic republic and reject the fascist, socialist vision the loony left has of our country.
- pitlord
I exaggerated your points? In what sense? I even linked to this discussion so people could read you verbatim. What I have said is that all of the "evidence" you have provided for him being Marxist could be said of almost every mainstream politician in America in the last 100 or more years. Which is also why I think that "your brand" of politics will never gain currency because from your description anyone who could get enough votes to gain high office would be a Marxist in your analysis. #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
And I love that, even though I have not resorted to name-calling, you went to the "loony left" blast. That will certainly bolster your argument. As long as you only want to appeal to people who already agree with you, you should be just fine. Good luck with that. #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
I pointed out on each of Karl Marx's 10 planks how America has moved or is moving toward policies that are compatible with Marx's agenda. In your response you suggested that I was making the claim that America is already a Marxist state. That's an exaggeration and is patently false. Apparently you have quelled yourself into a comfortable state of inaction with your tacit acceptance that...
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- pitlord
Is it an exaggeration or patently false? It can't really be both. I did not suggest that you were making the claim that America is already a Marxist state, I simply showed that based upon your analysis, one would come to the conclusion that it was. I was attempting, I think rather successfully, to illuminate the logical disconnect in your argument. That you do not see the disconnect is not surprising. #TGOR
- Bren, Not Grinchy
As for my disparaging comment about the "loony-left," I have no misconceptions that anything I say or do will sway the opinion of the hardcore left. If you took that as a personal insult then you'll have to come to terms with your own radical political affiliations eventually. BTW don't act like telling people who disagree with you that they have a "tenuous grip on reality" is...
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- pitlord
Sorry, I do not see how you exposed any kind of logical "disconnect" with my analysis. You simply took the position that because there are some planks of Marx's agenda which haven't yet been fully realized then Obama's policies couldn't possibly be Marxist. Your argument is a logical fallacy. And yes an exaggeration can and generally is false.
- pitlord
Also, you DID suggest that I was claiming that America has already become a Marxist state: "There you have it. Unequivocal proof that we are a Marxist state, and that Obama (and anyone else whose policies align with the previous 10 statements) is a Marxist. just ask pitlord." -Bren, Photophobe
- pitlord
A) I don't agree that an exaggeration is generally false. I think, by definition it is an overstatement of fact. B) I used *your* points about Marxism, which is why I referenced you as a source for the points. I did not say that you claimed America was a Marxist state, I said that your analysis could be used as proof that it is, if one were to accept your analysis. C) I do not take "loony left" as a personal insult, but I think that dismissing anyone on the left as "loony" is short-sighted
- Bren, Not Grinchy
Lastly, #TGOR is meant to refer to any argument, on any side, that is not based on fact. For example, calling Obama the "Tarpmeister" when TARP was a holdover from the previous administration would demonstrate a #TGOR.
- Bren, Not Grinchy
TARP was a program that Obama supported and expanded with his own, even bigger "TARP" style programs after taking office. Like it or not, that is reality. A) obviously we'll have to agree to disagree. B) Yes you did. See your quote that I posted above. C) "Loony left" is only dismissive of liberals with a socialist, fascist vision of our country. Other lefties are not necessarily loony, but maybe misguided.
- pitlord
pitlord to pitlord's feed, US Politics, Global Politics & News, World News & Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter, Fresh Conservatives, Conservative Oasis, Conservative Bloggers
White House aides: No Afghan decision before Thanksgiving "You guys make a pretty good photo op," the president said. - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...
Obama arrived on the base 3:19 p.m. local time (1 a.m. Eastern Standard Time) and received a rousing welcome from 1,500 troops in camouflage uniforms, many holding cameras or pointing cell phones to snap pictures. "You guys make a pretty good photo op," the president said.
- pitlord
from Bookmarklet
China’s Liu Says U.S. Rates Cause Dollar Speculation | Bloomberg - http://www.bloomberg.com/apps...
Dante Rose Pleiades, Alex Scoble, Fulaan and 2 other people liked this
“The continuous depreciation in the dollar, and the U.S. government’s indication, that in order to resume growth and maintain public confidence, it basically won’t raise interest rates for the coming 12 to 18 months, has led to massive dollar arbitrage speculation,” and this has “seriously affected global asset prices, fuelled speculation in stock and property markets, and created new, real and insurmountable risks to the recovery of the global economy, especially emerging-market economies.”
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
Some truth. : )
- Cole Jolley
Basically, plan to post lower speculative DJIA points in the Dow Jones Guessing Game room soon
- Fulaan
...and an interesting comeback from Krugman today on China's manipulations: http://www.nytimes.com/2009...
- Cole Jolley
Duo get death by hanging for trafficking in cannabis | New Straits Times - http://www.nst.com.my/Current...
“Two men were sentenced to death by the Shah Alam High Court for trafficking in drugs eight years ago.”
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
Berlin Wall anniversary - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...
Lies About Marijuana Drive People to a Much More Harmful Drug -- Booze | AlterNet - http://www.alternet.org/drugrep...
Alex Scoble and Cristo liked this
"More accurately, Prof. Nutt crossed the line between deceiving citizens and being honest with them. The home secretary, a former member of Parliament, is no doubt comfortable with a little verbal jousting over public policy decisions. What he could not abide by was a top ranking official threatening the anti-cannabis mythology embraced at the very top level of government. Based on Nutt’s fateful bout of truthfulness, Johnson said he had “lost confidence” in Nutt as an advisor."
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
Allvoices.com - Iran Charges Three American Hikers with Espionage, Possible Bargaining Chips for Iran - http://www.allvoices.com/contrib...
TEHRAN, Iran - Shane Bauer, 27, Josh Fattal, 27, and Sarah Shourd, 31, are three American hikers who have been detained since July 31 on charges of illegally crossing the border from Iraqi Kurdistan into Iran. The hikers entered northern Iraq from Turkey on July 28 with plans of a five day hike in northern Iraq's Kurdistan region. Tehran general prosecutor Abbas Jafari Dolatabadi said on Monday, "The three are charged with espionage. Investigations continue into the three detained Americans in Iran." Under Iran's Islamic sharia law, espionage is punishable by death. In an effort to get the hikers released, the families released a video of the three playing around, having fun like friends do on vacation. The video was shot by Shon Meckfessel, another friend who accompanied them on their Kurdistan trip. He had planned to join them that day, but stayed behind because he felt ill. Meckfessel spoke with Bauer the morning of their hike. He said his friends did not know they were near the...
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- Myrna
from Bookmarklet
Scott Green to Scott's feed, US Politics, UK Politics, American Politics, Global Politics & News, International Relations & Security, Obama; Foreign Policy, Alex Goodall
Unless we moderate the strategic competition between India and Pakistan, the most we can hope for is a temporary peace in Afghanistan http://bluecontrarian.blogspot.com/2009...
Sean McBride liked this
Italy Convicts 23 Americans In CIA Terrorist Kidnapping Case | AP - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009...
Micah Wittman, Alex Scoble, John (a.k.a. dendroica) and 2 other people liked this
"An Italian judge found 23 Americans and two Italians guilty Wednesday in the kidnapping of an Egyptian terror suspect, delivering the first legal convictions anywhere in the world against people involved in the CIA's extraordinary renditions program."
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
Clinton faces Pakistani anger at Predator attacks | AP - http://apnews.myway.com/article...
Tony C and Sean McBride liked this
“Another asked Clinton how she would define terrorism. ‘Is it the killing of people in drone attacks?’ [the woman asked.] That woman then asked if Clinton considers drone attacks and bombings like the one that killed more than 100 civilians in the city of Peshawar earlier this week to both be acts of terrorism. ‘No, I do not,’ Clinton replied.” [Strange standards we have, ey?]
- Anthony Citrano
from Bookmarklet
One can easily envision a scenario unfolding in which we violently polarize the entire region against the United States and drive it into the arms of China and Russia. Sometimes it seems that this is precisely the scenario that the neoconservatives, and their neoliberal and Christian Zionist allies, have in mind.
- Sean McBride
Odd diplomatic segues: Clinton on Al Qaeda leadership, Pakistani Taxes | Daily Times - http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print...
“I find it hard to believe that nobody in your government knows where they are and couldn’t get them if they really wanted to... maybe that’s the case; maybe they’re not gettable. I don’t know... As far as we know, they are in Pakistan... the percentage of taxes on GDP (in Pakistan) is among the lowest in the world... We (the United States) tax everything that moves and doesn’t move, and that’s not what we see in Pakistan...”
- Anthony Citrano
Scientology Watch - France trial panel discussion (on banning Scientology) - Other - Soft Machine³ - Arts Tech and Other - http://www.softmachinecubed.com/other...
Neil de Haan and Edward Zwart liked this
"This is a particularly interesting and informative panel discussion from June 2009 that aired on on France 24. The topic is the legal action in France against Scientology. The panelists go into some detail on a person’s right to believe anything at all, versus taking action on that belief that causes harm to others. Rick Ross, director of the Ross Institute, a valuable resource on cults and new religious movements, makes very clear statements on where Scientology crosses the line into fraud and possible criminal activity. France does not recognize Scientology as a religion, and has found the institution and its members guilty of fraud in that context. Apparently a new EU legal wrinkle will prevent an outright ban of Scientology in France. The “purification rundown” was created by L. Ron Hubbard, who had no medical training or evidence supporting his doctrines. His claim of “elimination of toxins” has been found to be false, furthermore the large doses of niacin can damage the liver....
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- Richard ¿digame? Walker
from Bookmarklet
"France does not recognize Scientology as a religion, and has found the institution and some members guilty of fraud in that context" So basically they're saying you're not allowed to rip people off if you're not representing a "recognized" religion?
- Eivind
I'm not sure why they make that distinction! It does really bother one panelist... and you're right, the implication is that "real" religions aren't prosecuted for crime. This case was the first time the entire organization was on trial though... perhaps they can't imagine French Court v. Vatican :-)
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
The "sect" designation may get around any "religious persecution" allegations against the court, I suppose.
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
Yay France.
- Edward Zwart
David C. Cooper to David's feed, Global Politics & News, US Politics, Middle East Discussion, Middle East Forum, Israel 5770, Israel PressConf, Jew News
Israeli police storm Jerusalem's holiest site - Yahoo! News - http://news.yahoo.com/s...
mjc, Christopher Chung and Fulaan liked this
The Muslims are rioting to stop the Jews from praying on the their own Temple Mount?!? If they truly believe that Islam is right and the Jews were forsaken, what are they afraid of?
- David C. Cooper
from Bookmarklet
Have you noticed that Americans are not rioting or killing one another over religious issues? That's how modern Western democracies are supposed to work -- strict separation of church and state.
- Sean McBride
Sean, have you noticed which side is inciting a riot and which is simply trying to keep the peace enforcing the law? Which side in this conflict has a history of taking extraordinary measures to avoid unnecessary violence? Besides, where do you think America's founding fathers got the model for our constitution? FYI America is NOT a democracy.
- David C. Cooper
David -- you are mired down in an ugly holy war in the Mideast, as the result of your religious fundamentalist beliefs. None for me, thanks. There are more important fish to fry.
- Sean McBride
David -- after you study the intellectual history of the U.S. Constitution, including The Enlightenment, John Locke, Voltaire, Diderot, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson, get back to me. Here is one starting point for the discussion: http://www.three-peaks.net/annette... These luminaries despised religious fanaticism and theocracies, which is why they...
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- Sean McBride
Sean, your sources are so flagrantly biased they've completely abandoned the realm of reason and for insane conspiracy theory. Why don't you read something written by the founders themselves instead of biased analysis by paranoid atheists looking to justify their beliefs? I'd recommend "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine as a starting place for you. The founders were not trying to eliminate religion they were trying to escape religious persecution.
- David C. Cooper
David -- I've studied in depth all the founding works of the American Republic -- apparently you haven't. Obviously you haven't read the book you just recommended -- Thomas Paine's Common Sense. Why don't you try quoting for us Thomas Paine's remarks on religion.
- Sean McBride
Thomas Paine from The Age of Reason: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." Ring any bells, David?
- Sean McBride
Thomas Paine from The Age of Reason: "Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange believe that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."
- Sean McBride
Thomas Paine from The Age of Reason: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
- Sean McBride
You mean like: "Every religion is good that teaches man to be good; and I know of none that instructs him to be bad. " or "I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy." It may surprise you to find that in Judaism it is a tradition to question and struggle with our scripture, a tradition which Paine obviously understood.
- David C. Cooper
I made Aliyah in 2005 and visited the Temple Mount. We were forced to wait for several hours, our pictures were taken and our names logged in a book they have only for Torah observant Jews. Once on the Temple Mount, I was overcome with emotion because I've dreamed of walking up there for most of my life. I started crying and the Muslim police surrounded me, screaming at me that Jews...
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- Bob Martin
David: Thomas Paine: "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." Clearly Paine wasn't referring to the Bible, on which he heaped contempt. He redefined religion in his terms as an expression of Enlightenment ideals. Jefferson did the same thing when he rewrote the Bible. All of this is familiar territory to students of American intellectual history. Do you think you can just breeze by those three Paine quotes just posted without acknowledging them?
- Sean McBride
Thomas Paine: "We must be compelled to hold this doctrine to be false, and the old and new law called the Old and New Testament, to be impositions, fables and forgeries."
- Sean McBride
Sean, You also fail to note that in The Age of Reason Paine is speaking out against the New Testament version of the Bible. Here is some more reading for you: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz... http://www.tabletmag.com/news-an... Or how about a quote from Thomas Jefferson "happy in the restoration of the Jews, particularly to their...
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- David C. Cooper
Bob, thank you for sharing such difficult memories. Unfortunately people like Sean cannot see that their own brand of fanaticism is as dangerous to the peaceful existence of mankind as any other.
- David C. Cooper
Fanaticism is a poison in the human psyche and always finds a way to manifest. Thanks for the intelligent comments. All the best...
- Bob Martin
David: what is "fanatical" about presenting accurate quotes from Thomas Paine strongly criticizing the Bible and the Judeo-Christian tradition (none of which you have challenged), and in pointing out that the visionaries who founded America sought to escape the narrow-minded and fundamentalist kind of thinking which had kept the Old World mired down in vicious holy wars over religious doctrine?
- Sean McBride
I can easily think of dozens of places around the world I much prefer to Jerusalem as havens of enlightened human culture, and in which I would much prefer to live (London, Rome, Paris, Stockholm, Manhattan, San Francisco, Boston/Cambridge, Seattle, Vancouver, etc.). Jerusalem seems to attract the attention predominantly of religious zealots, few of whom actually choose to live there....
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- Sean McBride
The New York Times on today's incident: "The Israeli police chief, David Cohen, said the disturbances were precipitated by calls from right-wing Jewish activists and an Islamist group, the Islamic Movement, for their supporters to ascend the mount on Sunday. Anticipating violence, hundreds of riot police officers took up positions in and around the Old City, prompting Muslims to accuse Israel of provocation."
- Sean McBride
Bob -- you managed to misrepresent my views on every point you mentioned! -- quite a performance. :) I don't hate religion -- I've spent some effort studying and learning from world religions, including Zen Buddhism and Judaism. Nor do I necessarily agree with Thomas Paine's harsh remarks about the Bible -- I was simply trying to point out that the American Founding Fathers were hostile...
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- Sean McBride
Bob -- your hostility towards Christianity ("xianity") and Islam, which you consider to be false messianic cults within the Abrahamic tradition, is motivated by your indoctrination in Judaism, right? And many Muslims and Christians feel the same way about the other two major branches of monotheism. Your post proves my point.
- Sean McBride
article(Jpost.com staff; Braverman: Rabbis' call to go up to Temple Mount hurts the State; Jerusalem Post; October 26, 2009 http://www.jpost.com/servlet...) "Minister for Minority Affairs, MK Avishay Braverman (Labor) said that the call by rabbis for Jews to ascend the Temple Mount hurt Israel and that the provocation is...
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- Sean McBride
All those cities you named where you'd prefer to live will eventually be dominated by Muslims. From first-hand experience, I assure you they'll have no tolerance for you. It's not Jews who look forward to an Apocalyptic "end time" but Xians and Muslims. And even in this they find it necessary to copy Daniel's prophetic text. Something to contemplate. Be Seeing You.
- Bob Martin
Bob -- On what empirical and rational grounds do you claim that, say, Manhattan, San Francisco and Boston will eventually be dominated by Muslims? And why would you prefer to live in Jerusalem over the cities I mentioned?
- Sean McBride
Bob -- why do you spell "Christian" as "xian" and "Christianity" as "xianity"?
- Sean McBride
Sean, your fanaticism stems from your personal crusade against what you call "Abrahamic cults." You've swallowed so much misinformation about religions that you actually believe religions have been the cause of the major world conflicts and atrocities. Some how you completely ignore the fact that the worst violence perpetrated by man against man has been initiated by atheists and...
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- David C. Cooper
David -- is this the kind of tolerance you were referring to that one finds in Jerusalem? article(Anne Barker; Reporter feels mob's hate in the Holy City; ABC News; August 25, 2009 http://www.abc.net.au/news...) "Spit like rain I found myself herded against a brick wall as they kept on spitting - on my face, my hair, my clothes, my arms. It was...
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- Sean McBride
David -- the American Founding Fathers were well aware of the destructive and self-destructive religious wars between Roman Catholics and Protestants that had wracked Europe for centuries. The Enlightenment emerged in great part as a reaction to those holy wars -- many Europeans and Americans had had quite enough of that nonsense. You really do need to acquire an education in modern...
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- Sean McBride
"As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book." [Thomas Paine, Letter to William Duane, April 23, 1806]
- Sean McBride
Sean, it is telling that the first example of what I called "violent clashes" that you can find seems to implicate Jews. Were you unable to find any other examples of violence involving non-Jews? Is also ironic that in this example the very worst behavior cited is that the woman was being spit upon. While I sympathize with this woman's horrific experience I think it hardly compares with the topic of this thread in which Muslims are throwing rocks, which can easily kill a full grown man, and not just spit
- David C. Cooper
Bob -- can you name the three individuals whose ideas were most influential in the composition of the U.S. Constitution? And are you familiar with their views on religion, and on Judaism in particular? Do you know who was the primary author of U.S. Constitution? Are you familiar with his views on religion? Your statements on this subject so far have been radically out of touch with historical reality, and seem to be motivated by cult beliefs, not based on objective scholarship.
- Sean McBride
Bob -- why do you spell "Christian" as xian? The spelling doesn't convey a sense of respect.
- Sean McBride
Bob -- your assertion that Paine focused his disgust on the Christian part of the Bible is false. Yet another Paine quote: "The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began...
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- Sean McBride
Sean: Not only could I name them, I could tell you what they had for breakfast on April 1, 1776, and other trivial details. And then what? You're living in a very restricted world and think that just because you don't know something it isn't true or doesn't exist. In Kabbalistic terms, this is the realm of Samael -- Do some research. The Constitution was inspired mainly by Torah, in...
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- Bob Martin
Bob -- you didn't mention any names. The "Father of the Constitution" is generally considered to be James Madison, who was especially concerned about maintaining a strict separation between church and state. Three thinkers who strongly influenced the Constitution were Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Thomas Paine. We've seen what Paine thought about the Bible in the above quotes. If...
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- Sean McBride
Sean: You're a mile wide and an inch deep. By strict definition an idiot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki.... Information about the influence of Torah on the Framers is available. David provided two good links to get you started. Study them. I know Prof. Eidelberg and his research is solid. Enough of this sophistic bullshit. Revert to Islam - they always welcome another idiot to their herd.
- Bob Martin
Bob -- can you point to any praise for the Torah, or acknowledgments of its influence on their thinking, in the writings of Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and other American Founding Fathers? Shouldn't it be rather a giveaway that the American Founding Fathers were strongly opposed to theocracies, and that the Torah is intensely theocratic at the core? And why would you...
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- Sean McBride
Bob -- are you referring to Paul Eidelberg, the head of the Yasmim Israel Party? "The party was founded during the term of the 13th Knesset in the mid 1990s when Shaul Gutman broke away from Moledet, another right-wing party. The party ran in the 1996 elections, but failed to cross the electoral threshold of 1.5% and did not win a seat. In the 2003 elections the party ran a joint list...
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- Sean McBride
Bob -- I just ordered a copy of Eidelberg's book through interlibrary loan: book(Paul Eidelberg; The Philosophy of the American Constitution: A Reinterpretation of the Intentions of the Founding Fathers; 1968; Free Press http://www.amazon.com/dp...) I've browsed around a bit and discovered that it has had little impact on mainstream scholarship on the intellectual origins of...
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- Sean McBride
Sean, since you venerate the American founders here is a quote for you: John Adams wrote, "I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation." Adams added, "I should believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate to all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the...
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- David C. Cooper
David -- some of the American Founding Fathers reinvented the Western monotheistic tradition within a Deist framework -- much as both Christianity and Islam reinvented elements of Judaism to suit their own purposes. They combined these strains of thought with the Greek and Roman traditions, the Common Law legal tradition, British skepticism and dissent, and the European Enlightenment....
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- Sean McBride
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
- Sean McBride
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816
- Sean McBride
"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." -- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief
- Sean McBride
Sean, you claim that the founders "reinvented" western religion. Are you claiming that the Constitutional Republic they created here in the U.S. is a new religion? And if they "despised" theocratic ideologies why would they create a new one to replace the old? I would agree that the founders drew from all of the sources you mentioned to develop the system of government we used to enjoy...
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- David C. Cooper
Sean, re: John Adams to Thomas Jefferson June 20, 1815 – I would agree with John Adams. G-d created man with free will for a reason. He wants us to choose to follow his laws not be compelled or forced.
- David C. Cooper
David -- no: the Founders did not create a new religion or theocracy. They created a political system based on rational thought, and which is open-ended, subject to endless revision and reinvention as our knowledge of the universe improves. And I agree with you that the Jewish tradition as a whole is a treasure house of valuable ideas and values, including skepticism and "wrestling with God," that has played a central and positive role in the development of American culture.
- Sean McBride
Sean, re: John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816. Okay, so Adams is questioning how "fables, tales and legends" from other cultures have been grafted onto Jewish and Xian theology and how those additions have contributed to making them appear more violent than they were to begin with. Note that I would not dream of denying that there are some terribly...
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- David C. Cooper
Sean, re: John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816 (the second quote from this source that you posted above) I would absolutely agree that superstition and dogma cannot confine man's G-d given free will. It is central to Judaism that we argue and question everything.
- David C. Cooper
Sean, so where is the new monotheistic tradtion within a deist framework that you described?
- David C. Cooper
David -- I think Adams' point was that violent and irrational superstitions and bigotry are deeply enwound in the Judeo-Christian tradition itself. And I agree with you that Judaism as a whole (especially Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism) has worked diligently to process, reinterpret and expunge much of that cruft in positive ways.
- Sean McBride
David -- where is the new tradition that the Enlightenment set in motion? We're in the midst of it. It's a process. It's part of a perpetual pursuit for truth. We're figuring it out as we go along.
- Sean McBride
Irrational superstition and bigotry are hard-wired in the Human Prototype. Atheism has produced tyrants who equal any King or Priest in brutality against those who disagree with them. For example: Jacobins, Marxists, and students of Jean-Paul Sarte.
- Bob Martin
True enough: secular messianic movements produced 100 million deaths in the 20th century alone: Marxism, Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc. And in many cases religion has served as a brake on totalitarianism and genocidal barbarity.
- Sean McBride
Superstition and bigotry are mechanisms in our psyche that have a destructive purpose. When we balance them with a relationship with our common Creator we can learn to turn away from destructive mechanisms and pick up the constructive mechanisms of cooperation and teamwork. The path to peace in this story would be for the Islamic authorities whom the nation of Israel has entrusted to...
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- David C. Cooper
David -- you finally said something I can agree with -- all religions should be allowed to pray peacefully everywhere in Jerusalem. Jerusalem should become the world capital of religious tolerance instead of the world capital of religious fanaticism and hatred.
- Sean McBride
It's been quite a while, but I've read everything he wrote and don't recall Thomas Paine writing this anywhere and am fairly certain I'd remember him saying this. What about Mocka? Or how about your living room? The only religious fanaticism and hatred in Jerusalem is that found in Islam and most (but not all) xian groups who agitate against Jewish sovereignty there.
- Bob Martin
Bob -- which specific Thomas Paine quote are you disputing? Why do you spell "Christian" as "xian"? And are you really claiming that there is no Jewish religious fanaticism or hatred revolving around Jerusalem? That only Muslims and Christians are to blame?
- Sean McBride
Bob -- more regarding Thomas Paine's views on the Bible: "In the following letter Thomas Paine replies to a friend who recently tried to oblige Paine to accept Christianity and the Bible as the “word of God.” Paine in no uncertain terms makes it clear to his friend that no discerning gentleman will accept the Bible as the word of God. In Paine’s opinion, “the Bible is a gross libel...
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- Sean McBride
Thomas Paine is like Moses to you, and his writings the equivalent of Torah (sacred, indisputable revelation). I don't recall Paine-Moses giving a mitzvah to make Yerushalayim a place of prayer for all people. I've already answered the xian thing. Modern "xian zionist" rhetoric aside, from the perspective of theology and eschatology, xianity and islam share a basic view of Jews, and a...
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- Bob Martin
Bob -- 1. I am my own Moses, and I don't blindly agree with everything Thomas Paine wrote. This subject only came up because David Cooper claimed that Paine was a fan of the Torah -- that is a wildly false statement. The record has now been corrected. 2. I didn't see your explanation for the spelling of "Christian" as "xian." What is the ideological and doctrinal background on that peculiar habit? And do you respect Christianity as a religion and belief system?
- Sean McBride
You're a broken record (or in these days, a glitched CD track). Good that you confess what you are: "a self-made man who worships his creator." The misanthrope alcoholic Paine figures large in your "self-made men" pantheon. You just didn't read what I said about writing xian. Around age 9 or 10 I started writing xian, xianity. Already at that age I understood what xians had done to Jews...
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- Bob Martin
Bob -- so your point of view is that Christianity is a false religion and that Christians are brainwashed? The "xianity" spelling is your way of expressing contempt for Christianity as a whole? By the way, with which branch of Judaism are you affiliated? Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist? Which Jewish thinkers have most influenced you?
- Sean McBride
Bob -- is the Noahide movement closely associated with Chabad-Lubavitch, Menachem Mendel Schneerson and Billy Jack Dial?
- Sean McBride
B'nai No'ah was started by Vendyl Jones and R' Meir Kahane ZT'L HY'D. Other Torah-observant Rabbis quickly joined the movement and today there are many B'nai No'ah groups, Chabad sponsoring some of them. Fearing political repercussions, Rabbis at the 1990 founding ceremony refused to appear on the same stage as Rav Kahane. Vendyl arranged for Rav Kahane to speak after the convention. The video of his speech is here http://www.youtube.com/user...
- Bob Martin
Bob -- thanks for the historical background on the movement.
- Sean McBride
I wonder why Friendfeed isn't pushing this thread towards the top of the queue for this group when new comments are added -- I noticed the new comments only by accident, and could have easily missed them.
- Sean McBride
Wikipedia; Vendyl Jones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Sean McBride
Bob: have you seen these two articles today? article(Amos Harel; Alleged Jewish terrorist arrested for murder, series of bomb attacks; Haaretz; November 1, 2009 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen...) and article(Chaim Levinson; Who is suspected Jewish terrorist Yaakov Teitel?; Haaretz; November 1, 2009 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen...) How likely do you think it is that Teitel has Kahanist connections?
- Sean McBride
Bob: my "ideology": maximize human creativity; minimize human suffering; free speech; freedom of assembly; checks and balances; government transparency and accountability; meritocracy; creative capitalism; scientific inquiry; skepticism; separation of church and state; ethnic and religious tolerance and cooperation
- Sean McBride
Sean: 99% of what you say is exactly what Torah is all about.
- Bob Martin
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