ɥsıuɐʎɹ › Comments

This was originally posted late in the day on a Friday, so I thought it might merit a Kucsma bump. - J450N

I'm in Portland, and while I don't have anyone in mind (I'm new here), send me an email and I can pass this request to my better-connected colleagues. jpetit at pdx dot ed-you - Joan

MegvMeg (from NYU) has unconference experience, but drat, she is an academic... - Joe

Stephen Francouer also has unconference experience, but he's also an academic librarian. - josh neff, geek at large

Jill Cirasella from the Brooklyn College Library also has unconf experience... - Joe

John Blyberg from Darien, CT might be within driving distance. He is just about the ultimate unconf dude. - Joe

I'm doing a podcamp here in Halifax and have lots of unconference experience - not in the New York area though. Would need expenses to come. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

thanks, everyone. just to clarify, this is for a presentation at PLA 2010, which is being held in Portland, OR (end of March). Let me know if you'd like me to put you in touch with the panel organizer. jkucsma at metro dot org - J450N

Duh... Just read "Brooklyn" twice and thought the conf was taking place there. Sorry bout that. - Joe

ahaha, that's fantastic - Fiona Bradley

I left a comment...I'm curious about the connection he draws between disagreeing with LJ's promotion of the AL, and the use of Movers & Shakers to promote oneself. David? - Jason Griffey

I'll be curious to hear what David says about that. I think that there would be a bit of a disconnect if the same person is saying "LJ editorial standards are crap because they publish the AL" and "I am proud to have the LJ editors' seal of approval as a Mover and Shaker." - s t e v e

Erm. If LJ editorial standards are crap, I'm in trouble, 'long of how I've been published there and all. - D0r0th34

I don't think I'd say that LJ's editorial standards are crap...even though I DO disagree with them publishing the AL. But that said, I really see M&S as an award from my peers...someone had to nominate me (probably several someones). But maybe that's me over-parsing my personal part of it. Plus, what Dorothea said... - Jason Griffey

Well, note that I said "*if* someone is saying that." I'm not personally concerned about it, but that's what I think David is saying. He also says that LJ publishes lots of stuff that reflects badly on librarians. - s t e v e

Wonderful. I keep thinking whether I should try to say something about this whole event, and David's done such a fine job here that I probably won't. Doubt that I'll do any vlogs, but I sure liked this one. (And I've commented at David's blog, to close the circle.) - Walt Crawford

Well, and I quibble with the idea that LJ is a library-propaganda arm constrained to publish only "rah-rah libraries!" stuff. Some of the stuff librarians do is bogus. If LJ reports that, more power to LJ. - D0r0th34

And this is the answer? Yup. Right on David! - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Weak editorial standards can still allow in good stuff- and there *is* good stuff in LJ. There's also a lot of crap. - David Rothman (☤)

Barbara Fister. Andrew Albanese (before he moved to PW, sigh). Peter Jaczo. They publish better stuff than American Libraries at present. - D0r0th34

Wondering if AL will be nominated or receive M&S for 2010...would be kind of like when Time was going to give Man of the Year to Osama bin Laden. Time's comment: "He is not a larger than life figure with broad historical sweep...he is smaller than life, a garden-variety terrorist whose evil plan succeeded beyond his highest hopes." - Lori Reed

Mister Muggles was played (with unusual patience) by my kitty, Shelby....who felt it was a good stretch to play a male cat. - David Rothman (☤)

Best thing I've watched online in ages! :) I honestly can't say that I disagree with anything you said there. I totally wrote off M&S after they honored a certain master of sock-puppetry (though I probably should have sooner). - Meredith

In addition to praising the content (with which I can't find fault), I also want to say that I've never quite gotten the point of videos that are just a talking head...why not just write down what you have to say? Except, now I get it. Bravo. - Catherine Pellegrino

Ditto Catherine! I've never been much of a video person. This is everything a video blog post should be, but usually isn't. - Meredith

Catherine, I had the same reaction. Usually I feel like, "I just want to read your words at my own pace. Please no video." This piece convinced me that sometimes it's worth it to hit Play. :) - Rachel Walden

It was so helpful to have all of David's inflections and mannerisms the occasional silly face. It would have come across quite differently in print, I think. - marthalib

What Rachel, Catherine, Marthalib and Meredith just said. Damn, there are a lot of smart female librarians on FF. (Maybe that's because there are a lot of smart...oh, never mind.) - Walt Crawford

Yeah, it transmits all of those non-verbal cues quite nicely that we wouldn't have gotten with just the text. Plus, I made it through David's entire video without wanting to stop it. That wasn't a bad way to spend roughly 7 minutes. - Peter Murray

David, I wish there was a non-award that I could "nominate" you for. 'Cause that was your greatest video ever. - Greg Schwartz

Finally got to watch this. Completely brilliant. Thank you - laura x

David got it absolutely right. - Pete

Mr. Rothman provides a fine model for avoiding ad hominem attacks while being constructively critical. Bravo. - Evil Librarian

Y'all are very kind- thanks for all the feedback. :) - David Rothman (☤)

This was great. Part of me wonders, though, how honest and forthright some folks (maybe not you) would be with criticism of Library 101 if the AL hadn't been so snarky about it in the first place. But that doesn't detract from how much I enjoyed this. Thanks, David. - Joan

I think that if AL hadn't been so snarky then ppl who found the video lame would probably have looked at the *intention* of the project - to work together to discuss essential skills for librarians given the technological/social climate- and put their energy there instead of discussing whether low blows and rudeness are appropriate professional skills. - Kathryn says love n peace from iPhone

Whatever your views, you have to realize that DR wants to suppress certain forms of expression, while LJ tries to find things to publish. Surely librarians believe in the LJ way. Ad Hominem comment is not new to librarianship. I remember when the gret Jesse Shera said the great Lawrence Clark Powell acted like "a butterfly in heat." - John Berry

HAH! That's pretty funny, Mr. Berry. No, I don't want to suppress anything. Shera's comments were ATTRIBUTED TO HIM. I think you make your trade mag look even worse than it is by publishing nasty remarks from an unidentified author, that's all. Thanks, though, for trying to cast me as pro-censorship! That'll give a lot of people I know a really good chuckle. :) - David Rothman (☤)

I just noticed something, John (may I call you John?): Did you seriously sign up for FriendFeed just to leave that one silly comment? http://friendfeed.com/johnber... - David Rothman (☤)

One last thought. John Berry wrote that "LJ tries to find things to publish." Try harder, dude. There's LOTS of great writing you could've decided to publish- but in order to get as many clicks as possible, you went for the lowest common denominator: pseudonymous nastiness. - David Rothman (☤)

Is that really John Berry? Or is there a sock puppet among us? - Katy S

Katy++. JBerry isn't the hit-and-run type, I don't think; he ought to know better by now. - D0r0th34

I'd like to think that the real John Barry recognizes the difference between solid criticism & suppression. I mean, that's a college freshman-level argument. - josh neff, geek at large

x_x - Anna Haro

their noses are kinda chewy. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Ow. - ha3rvey (sayin' nothin')

what do you call a Cow with No Legs ,,,, groundbeef - johnpiercy

I love this woman (for that joke alone), and I don't care who knows it! (just don't tell my wife) - MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS

Cannibal dinner invite: Just bring yourself. </6 words> - Micah Wittman from iPhone

x_x - Anna Haro

Ah, it occurs this was Steven King's inside homage to his story with the clown. What was the name of that ? - Melanie Reed

lol - Josh Haley

:| - Rodfather

Yay! #badjokememe - Ladybug Heather

WANT! Also, I would like one of those hats. - s t e v e

Me too! - laura x

words cannot express how much I love this. - holly

You could try and knit it yourself too, eh? :) But I probably have enough wool to do a few more. :) - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Ryan, *I* could not knit it myself, no. :) - Jàson Puçkett

I love how you imply that intarsia is just sooooo easy :-p - Abigail

it is! Theres lots of internets around here you know? :) - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Yup. All our topics pages are delicious. http://www.halifaxpubliclibraries.ca/researc... - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Excellent--thanks. Josh, that's just what I'm looking for. Now if I can just figure out why it won't let me embed the linkroll...... - Abigail

we're not a public library, but we're tiny: http://www.ecuad.ca/library... - tara

We started to, but it looked so clunky that we gave up the idea. I didn't realize you could make it look good! I'll have to s how my boss the above links so we can try again. - Betsy (bentley) Vera

think before you drama-llama-ate - JSNFLMNG

Don't get all dramallamariffical. - Mary Carmen

Don't feed the llamas? - awd

well most llamas need to eat, and we love non-drama llamas. so 'don't feed the drama llamas, lest they propagate' (they are like Gremlins after all) - JSNFLMNG

I'm down with the anti-drama llama sentiment, but, which drama? What negativity? Where? Seriously, I feel like I must be missing something. - marthalib

Martha: my assumption: library 101 and abrams were the two biggest issues around town the past week or so. - Fiona Bradley

don't look or it will suck you in. that is what the drama llama is counting on. it's like medusa that way - JSNFLMNG

Drama llama ding-dongs. - Rochelle Rochelle

Likely so, Fiona. I feel like I just walked up to a conversation at a party midstream. Not sure that vague accusations of negativity are that helpful either, but I understand that no one wants to feed the drama llama. - marthalib

Oh, yeah, and I don't read the Annoyed Librarian :) Not worth it. - marthalib

I love drama when it comes from people getting really het up over stuff that matters to them. - s t e v e

martha, trust me, it's not vague, nor an accusation. Purely accurate description: There have been lots of personal disparagements and attacks flying around in re: the Annoyed Librarian, Library 101, and SirsiDynix, in addition to a bunch of generalized FF drama that's bleeding into other discussions. I was beginning to wonder if we were in some scary astrological phase, or if the moon... more... - Jenica

I'm with you on that sentiment, Jenica. We shouldn't be all happy-happy all the time, but we should be constructive. I think the experiment around the SirsiDynix paper to refute it line by line is interesting, but too nitpicky for me. Let's strategise about the issue of librarians being reluctant to investigate open source instead. I'd like to see AL be positive once in a while. I'd like to see some response videos to Library101 and alternate 101 lists. - Fiona Bradley

Well, it's vague in that jambina didn't point out who exactly she was talking about and it's an accusation in that one person's drama is another person's controversy/debate. - s t e v e

Okay, Steve, point taken. But personal attacks are personal attacks, and I'm not backing down on that one. :) - Jenica

I think the biggest thing thats bothering a lot of people is the personal attacks against folks. I wonder if jambina was vague so as not to give the AL any more press and linkage than she already gets - Sir Shuping

I'm all for being constructive and doing things. With all due respect to you, Jenica, and to Amy, I do think the in forming thoughts post was vague. "Accusations" was perhaps too strong a word and I apologize for that. I just don't feel like I've been trapped in a bubble of negativity online. Sure, there have been criticisms of Library 101 and SirsiDynix (thanks for clarifying that... more... - marthalib

that's great, Martha, I'm glad it's not affecting you the way I'm feeling it. I hope that it passes quickly, and that there are more people feeling what you are than what amy and I are. And that the moon regains its rightful orbit, or whatever... - Jenica

I feel like there are two ways to stem "drama" or unconstructive discussions: ignore it, or participate in a more genuine and humane fashion. Talking about drama *is* drama. (Reminder: my bachelor's degree is in drama.) - s t e v e

You can fight the fire, stoke the fire or use the fire constructively. - Pete

We didn't start the fire. - DJF

it was always burning since the world's been turning - Jenica

hola todos - it was intentionally vague. i'm seeing it online and in real life in a lot of different areas of libraryland. i was worried it would come off as me being against criticism (i think most folks know i love a good debate/critique) but then i thought i'd just let it be. enough people call me a pollyanna already, what's a few more ; ) and Steve - the post was basically me saying i'm ignoring this drama, which i know feeds into the drama, so, oops. (also, i nearly failed drama in high school.) - jambina

I think there was a lot of deeply personal reaction to seeing good friends and colleagues attacked, and I understand the "can't we all just get along" public reactions. I see them more as a show of support for friends done wrong than of trying to accomplish anything specifically. *Kicks a rock and turns down the flame on her blowtorch* - Rochelle Rochelle

Jambina, makes sense. It was intended as an observation rather than an indictment. I just see this happen a lot where people say "I HATE THE DRAMA!" which makes us all go "Oooh, what drama?! Where's my pitchfork?" - s t e v e

Drama? Did someone say drama? Sorry I'm late, my pitchfork was at the shop. - Betsy (bentley) Vera

lulz, no worries steve - totally didn't take it as an indictment (WHERE'S MY PITCHFORK!) and frankly, i might take the post down/edit it later today, depending how i'm feeling. - jambina

I'll add that I think there's a subtle difference between 'drama' and pointing out troublesome or inappropriate behavior when you see it. The latter (IMHO) is productive, even though it can appear dramatic and nasty. I can appreciate the desire for everyone to get along, but I also think that conflict is a positive thing and a necessary component of innovation. New ideas form from conflict - as long as it is the productive kind (not just 'you kill ma brother' kind of ego trips). - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

I think Rochelle hit on it. Also, I'm sorry that I've been contributing to the drama. - D0r0th34

*tacklehugs ryan for the "Hollywood Shuffle" reference* - s t e v e

I dunno, I model my work ethic after Inigo Montoya -- I find his mantra to be pretty useful :) - awd

You know what's kind of hilarious? I still am not really sure I know what we are talking about. :) - s t e v e

Me either, Steve. I must not be subscribed to the same people or something. Unless you're all talking about me, in which case STOP HATING ME. - Imitation lris

I resent the term "dramallama". I'll have you know I'm a drama QUEEN :-) - Slappy Line

Nobody Hates Iris. - David Rothman (☤)

and again I say: God bless those among us who have avoided the drama. Hooray for you, may I have some of what you're having?! - Jenica

Do you have six fingers on your right hand? - awd

Jenica, I just think it's different understandings of "drama." The AL thing on 101 to me is just stupid and not drama because I haven't seen anyone taking it seriously, getting upset about it, etc. I have seen no one else besides Rothman and Lindner say a single bad thing about 101, and again, they seemed to be critiquing the projects' merits, not the personalities of DLK and MP. The... more... - s t e v e

what the heck is a reserve room? - Sir Shuping

Steve, think public, not academic. in the context of the library in question, the "reserve room' is where you pick up books with holds on them, and if all your patrons call it the "carry out room", why do your signs and policies say Reserve Room? - Jenica

So the books you put there are not "on reserve" but "under the heat lamps?" I dunno. - s t e v e

The principle makes some sense, but the example seems dopey. My students often want to "rent" things from us. Should we stop having "borrowing" policies and have "free rentals?" - s t e v e

... might be worth a try, actually. - D0r0th34

because we've spent FOREVER trying to educate users, and they still call things by terms that actually make sense outside of our refined library world? Because no matter how many carefully designed concrete paths you lay, they still walk on the grass if it's quicker? Because it's not about what librarians want, it's about serving the user? - Jenica

I guess before making such a change, I'd like to see evidence from something like a card sort that the term new actually is more used by our user population and that the new term does not in fact simply confuse a different group of users. Also, part of the point of college is indoctrinating students into certain ways of thinking and talking, so while I do believe we should make things simpler when we can, I don't believe we need to change the name of the "catalog" to the "library search thing." - s t e v e

That probably sounds a little harsh. I'm passionate about this one; I hope you'll excuse that. To put it more simply: THE USER IS NOT BROKEN. The end. - Jenica

That's less harsh? :) - s t e v e

Yep. The user is not broken. No emotion, no judgement. Statement of fact. - Jenica

And in the panel, and here, no one suggested that we should make changes that don't have local utility. DLK was talking about using user feedback and direct yes/no comparisons of what users would prefer to see and use, from his user base, in his library. That's it. No one's telling anyone else what to do, just proposing that we might try to be less insular in how we perceive the... more... - Jenica

Let's just do as DOK does and go signage free. My local PL's layout is bad. Changing the name to carry out wouldn't help (btw I know this term as take away, loses even more in localization) they need a total renovation - Fiona Bradley from iPod

Oh, like "the user is not broken" doesn't carry any associations, emotion, judgment, etc. Gimme a break. And I was trying to have a conversation, sorry if it seemed like something else. - s t e v e

For me? No. It doesn't. It's a philosophy of service that orients our goals around meeting the needs of the user rather than the desires of the library. I'm sorry if it does for others and I'm not aware of it; I'm being sincere, here. And I guess I interpret any movement toward hyperbole and satire ("library search thing" as an example) as looking for an argument more than a conversation. *shrugs* Sorry if that's all a misinterpretation. No harm intended. - Jenica

here's what Phil found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - marthalib

The Gale Encyclopedia of Clothing and fashion is a total bust. I got some hits in the Britannica online searching for conical hat. - laura x

Thanks, guys! - s t e v e

How about the term "mitre" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

I really love that Wikipedia has an article on pointy hats - marthalib

Then you will love this, Martha: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - s t e v e

Also, this article talks a bit about the Mongolian Boqtaq http://www.jstor.org/pss... and it's in J-Stor so that makes it cool. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

http://www.jstor.org/pss... pointy hat in mumming - marthalib

Bluenosed mumming to boot! *beams with pride* - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Not sure if you were serious but I did the search anyway using LII (Librarians' Index to the Internet" here is what they came up with http://lii.org/pub... Cause..you gotta trust your librarians :) - Anna Lynn M.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/microsi... - Anna Lynn M.

http://www.history.org/Almanac... - Anna Lynn M.

Been rocking to 'One of these days' today. - Pete

The funk cannot only move - it can re-move, dig? (From P-Funk Wants to Get Funked Up by Parliament) - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

I'm trying to look at the positive because I'm at the point where I'm just gonna start getting really honest with people and I'm not sure if I care how they react. - Mary Carmen

I just can't deal with all the negativity. It is extraordinarily draining. - Mary Carmen

Most disliked part of management. For sure. Sympathies. - Fiona Bradley

It is. But this is more colleagues, than my staff. My staff are a pretty limber, flexible and positive bunch. Also, almost all of them are not librarians. Maybe that is the difference. - Mary Carmen

It also just seems like there is a lot of complaining lately in library-land. - Mary Carmen

Perhaps if some of us had even the littlest bit of leeway to actually *do* something we'd do more than find shit to complain about. Second, perhaps if when we did offer solutions they were at least considered .... Not saying this is the state everywhere, of course. But it is far more prevalent than many want to admit. - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

I don't know how I feel about that answer Mark. I know that those work environments exist, as I have been in one of them, but after seeing that it wasn't going to change, I left. Nothing - not the pay, location, position, etc. - was worth that much aggravation. I know not everyone has that luxury, but I think working in constant frustration is not a sustainable life option. - Mary Carmen

I agree with Mary - I have been in that situation too, and though at times it is a lot of responsibility (and sometimes it doesn't all go to plan), I'd rather be able to make change than not and that's why I've also left jobs or teams etc where that was the case. - Fiona Bradley

and even if you feel like no one's listening, it's still good practice and habit to find solutions to problems rather than simply complain about them. By just complaining, without ever suggesting viable change, you accept and perpetuate a broken system, and become a part of it. I don't find that acceptable in my own life, and it makes me sad when I see others do the same. - Jenica

Ditto. if that's the way the environment is, don't stay and reward them with your labor - leave. Eventually it forces a change if you're honest about why you're leaving. - Archangel ωαřмaiden

Mark, if all you can do in your job is find shit to complain about, you're doing it wrong. I actually think this kind of environment is much more myth than reality. - josh neff, geek at large

Or it won't, but it doesn't matter because you no longer work there. - Mary Carmen

I agree Jenica - there's a reason why 'results-oriented' is a criteria in many job ads! - Fiona Bradley

Fiona: Exactly. We have LOTS of ways to see what's broken in our services, structures, and daily operations. What we need more of is people who're willing to propose solutions, even if they're hard, uncomfortable, or completely out in left field. - Jenica

Yes, yes, and yes! I think maybe what I am feeling lately is more a sense of disappointment. I respect a lot of the people who are constantly complaining and I know they do great work, but I can't get past the *constant complaining*. - Mary Carmen

Well, even when we can & do intend to leave it isn't as simple as wanting to leave--as no doubt you are aware. And I agree with what everyone has said after my comment. I do! By the way, I said nothing about *never* suggesting viable change, nor did I say anything about *only* finding shit to complain about in my job. Both of those are full on leaps of assumption. I'd love to be able to walk in other people's shoes but I think others ought to at least consider that I might be shod. Myth? Whatever. - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Taking this away from you, Mark - can you agree that offering solutions is better than complaining? And that complaining - even in a poisonous atmosphere - is a fairly futile and useless activity that not only perpetuates an individual's attitude about the workplace, but can also lead to more useless complaining in others. Personally, I don't mind a little bit of bitching so long as the... more... - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

I'm about done with librarians complaining about some product or service not "working right" but never giving me concrete, reproducible examples. Particularly when those things are under my care. How can I fix it if I don't even know what's broken? Most often, this is used as an excuse for why XYZ won't work out the way we want it to because ABC doesn't work. Gah! - ǎňňǎ

Quit yer bitchin' the lot of ya, and get back to work. The databases aren't going to search themselves. - s t e v e

It's hard when you've got a brilliant idea for fixing things and TPTB are all risk-averse and "let's create a working group" about it and you have to put in 10x as much work persuading as actually *doing*. I can see why so many people give up. The only reason I don't is that I'm naive and am convinced that if I explain one more time everyone will agree with me. And then, I dunno, TPTB gets sick of my nagging or something, because eventually *they* give up and let me implement my brilliant idea. - Deborah Fitchett

Anyway, so that's why I call myself a cynical optimist (though perhaps it should be 'an optimistic cynic') - because I figure TPTB will *always* put roadblocks in the way of All That's Right And Good (no disrespect to the people who make up TPTB; they've got their reasons and their SOPs; it's just the way things are) but I also figure that if I persist long and cleverly enough I can always find a way over/around/through/under them. - Deborah Fitchett

You know the whole point of my post was more a comment about the fact that I'm just really sick of the negativity. It is really draining to be around people who are constant downers. Since being sick, I've tried very hard to be more aware of what I say in front of others. I don't want the first thought associated with me to be "complainer." And to be quite honest, that is starting to be the first thought that comes to my head when I interact with certain others. I don't like that fact, but it is there. - Mary Carmen

I thought you were complaining about Libertarians at first. - Cristo

Most of the customers I deal with are staff, so I get this one. I'm one of the people who has to come up with and/or implement long-lasting solutions. Not fixes, not work-arounds... *solutions*. (With what I do, fixes are ultimately perpetual, with few exceptions.) Going out of one's way to do even the smallest things to add value to a service can go a long way in turning regular complaints (especially those that are not so publicly shared) into regular complements, increased trust, and better partnerships. - Julian

thanks for giving away my password, dude - marthalib

Now I have to go change the locks on my luggage! - awd

I'm sorry, the answer we were looking for was "Roadrunner, roadrunner!" - s t e v e

7-8-9 10-11-12 ladybugs came to the ladybug picnic. . . - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

My last tweet has a "..." after it, allowing for additional chars. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

*shrug* ;) - JSNFLMNG

I clicked on the ellipsis and it did work are you in the native web client? - JSNFLMNG

This person should be nominated for a S&M prize! - josh neff, geek at large

Agreed, Andrew - marthalib

@Josh: the S&M Grinchy Grinch prize - marthalib

I saw it in the twitter feed, so it was before it was locked. I found it amusing. - DJF

The thing I like about grouchy comments like that is it automatically gives weight to Shovers & Makers. I mean, Steve set the site up, people nominated & awarded themselves the award--in the field of librarianship, it's pretty much an imaginary honor. And yet, by posting something like the above, you've just declared that S&M is indeed a prize, something to be honored by. So...WE WIN! - josh neff, geek at large

Nice thoughtless reference to the special olympics. Give 'em a prize for that too! - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

josh that's a great way to think of it...you've got such a positive outlook - Sir Shuping

It's so funny to me how Josh and I are on the same wavelength, because that's very much how I was thinking of it. "S&M: the award that's for everyone except for humorless twerps who make fun of the Special Olympics." - s t e v e

You know, I wonder if alasecrets (now alasecrets2009) was done by the AL. Or, do people know who started up alasecrets, but not me... - Joe

We know who did @ALAsecrets2009 (http://notallbits.wordpress.com/2009...), but I don't think we know about @alasecrets yet. - Peter Murray

Agree about grouchy comments giving weight, CR has done wonders for me. I proudly S&M in the name of the Cod. - Nikki D.

I guess they're jealous! - Jill Hurst-Wahl

Definitely jealous. People who protest about everyone being recognized are terrified it lessens their own recognition. "If everyone is special, that means I'm not special!" Which is horse feathers. - josh neff, geek at large

The truth is that most of us wouldn't get into the Special Olympics. Those people are hard core. - Jenny Reiswig

Hmmm.... - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)

Not photoshop. That's just her leg muscle being pushed to the side. Not very flattering overall. - CAJ, somewhere else

I have no idea about the alleged Adam's apple. - CAJ, somewhere else

....that so can't be her leg. It's HUGE compared to the other one - Nine

I'm with Curtis - her calf is pushed to the side making her right leg seem thinner than it is. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

It's scarier to think that there might be no photoshopping at all here. - Stephen Francoeur

Very helpful, Mr. Neff. Anyone here not hopped up on goofballs? - s t e v e

Get involved with management-y things. Take any opportunity to serve on a committee with membership that includes people OUTSIDE the library -- you want to build those ties. I don't know how you'd do this, but learning about budgeting and HR procedures cannot possibly hurt. Also, ask Jenica. *g* - D0r0th34

Good question, steve, and one I've been thinking about a lot lately - thanks for asking it! - ÉllbeeÇee

Leading projects? Anything you can do that demonstrates the ability to coordinate people's efforts, regardless of whether you're in a supervisory role or not, would be good practice for and evidence of management ability. - Catherine Pellegrino

project management and leadership, absolutely. and pay attention to all administrative information coming down from the top of your structure. I don't know how transparent anyone else's institution is, but when budget information is disseminated, pay attention to how it's managed and divided. The better you can make sense of where the money goes, the more you know about priorities and... more... - Jenica

Good question Steve :) - Abigail

Not sure which professional orgs you're part of but most have leadership & management sections in them. You don't have to already be a manager to participate and it's a great way to network and learn the latest. Volunteer to be program chair of a local conference, chair local committees, etc... these activities indicate your willingness to lead and are noticed/remembered by colleagues. - Nikki D.

Manage some people. Manage a group of LAs or student workers for some projects or full time. Make sure you have to turn in job "performance evaluations" every once in a while, otherwise, you won't be seen as a "manager". - Joe

Steve--perhaps you could take on interns? I know MPOW there's no way I could get management responsibilities over the aides--we have a person who manages them and that's her territory. But if you bring in someone for a specific project, you still need to train and supervise them? - Abigail

Thanks very much, all. Keep 'em coming! - s t e v e

Agreeing with Abigail: is there a local library school with students looking for internships/field experiences/practicums? Or local students doing distance ed LIS programs? If you don't have access to student assistants to use as guinea pigs for practice supervision, you might be able to get in some mentoring on the side. - Catherine Pellegrino

Can I add to Steve's question? When you volunteer for these outside opportunities to develop your leadership skills how do you prevent this from coming back to you in the form of "You spent too much time this year working on ALA/whatever and have neglected your primary job here at fill in the blank library?" Is this a common struggle? - Lori Reed

Keep your higher-ups in the loop as you consider volunteer opportunities. In fact, ask 'em where you could get involved and tell 'em why. Much harder for them to gig you on it if they signed off beforehand. - D0r0th34

Hmm, interesting, Jenica. I do project management and take leadership roles at times, but I don't think of myself as a manager. I'm technically only responsible for managing one person. So glad you asked this Steve. The salaries in management, frankly, are very enticing, but I'm not convinced I would actually like the work. I like getting my hands dirty on "real" things. - Laura Norvig

Seems to me that many librarians who do not self-define as a "manager" think that management is something they're not doing, when in reality... as librarians, we're all managing, all the time. If you lead projects, make decisions about resources, and supervise staff... how are you NOT a manager? :) ( I suspect the answer is that it's a question of scale; many librarians are not... more... - Jenica

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I do believe there's a real distinction between leaders and managers (some managers aren't leaders, some leaders aren't managers), one I've tried to keep semi-clear in the Library Leadership Network. Unfortunately, the Management Literature tends to equate the two. - Walt Crawford

And meanwhile, any time I hear about what "management skills" are, I think to myself, good old activist that I am, "Oh, they mean *organizing skills*"--although most of those are hard to put on your resume. - laura x

Laura: Heh. I was once expounding at length on the best ways to get various people in various departments at MFPOW on board for a big project, and another member of the steering committee said to me, "wow, Catherine, you're really starting to sound like a manager," to which I replied, "no, actually, I'm starting to sound like a labor organizer." Amazing how often those skills come in handy. - Catherine Pellegrino

I'm sure your local Subway is looking for someone reasonably reliable to manage their sandwich artists. (I'm only half-joking.) - Greg Schwartz

Yeah, right. You know how hard it is to get a job at Subway in this economy? - s t e v e

Look at job posting for library managers so that you know what skills you need to develop. Then think creatively (as people above have said) about how you acquire those skills. You do not have to acquire management skills in the library. One important point is that at some point you'll need to change your resume to a functional style resume so that you can highlight those skills and... more... - Jill Hurst-Wahl

@Walt - Our management textbook said that managers "plan, organise, lead and control". It said it a great many times. When I'm old and senile and have forgotten everything but my name, I'll still be able to recite that. - Deborah Fitchett

Volunteer for the board of a small community organization. If you end up chair, you will find yourself managing lots, including HR, finance and so on. That's really the best thing to see all the parts of an organization in one big humongous lump. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Actually I'm with Walt on this one. There are a lot of suggestions about leading - eg. forming external partnerships, understanding the formal and informal structure of the organisation and serving on committees. Any librarian who wanted to do their job well in any organisation should do these.... When I read Steve's original qn, I immediately thought he meant a job where he managed other people . I think most of us "non-managing leaders" already manage time, relationships, resources and information - Kathryn says love n peace from iPhone

Kathryn: I think that "managing other people" can fall under several of the things that folks have suggested. Whenever I've been responsible for leading a committee or a project, I've had to draw on every ounce of people management skills and knowledge I have in order to meet goals. Unless Steve can some how shift his position around to having staff reporting to him officially, this is probably the best way to get people management experience. - ǎňňǎ

the only difference between managing people in a committee, project, or other group and managing people formally (as far as I've seen in my 8 years managing people formally) is that the formal manager has the stick as well as the carrot. In informal management scenarios, you rarely have the power to punish, only to reward, and that, frankly, makes it a *more* challenging management... more... - Jenica

I think you are right Jenica. I lead ad hoc teams of ppl from many sections and levels and it feels like I need to charm them and show people how much fun it can be, how we can serve better, how much they can improve their skills... But it's a bit like being a grandparent or Auntie - you get to hand them back at the end of the day to the people who *really* set the rules and need to keep them happy long term.. - Kathryn says love n peace from iPhone

As everyone has said, most of us are managers in one way or another. But here are some things to think about when considering capital M Management. Make sure you know the difference between managing and supervising. Look inside yourself and ask if you are ready for the responsibility of carrying your work with you (in the abstract) more often. Think about how you deal with crisis,... more... - Rochelle Rochelle

I've been thinking about this recently, too. Especially at smaller institutions, there isn't really a "career path" to follow in the formal sense. (At my library, I'm still in my "entry level" position with only one person between me and the library director. Promotion doesn't exist, really.) My director is really good about recognizing and encouraging the less-formal kinds of... more... - Imitation lris

If you are academic, get on university committees, try to get to chair one. For any kind of library, get involved in outside organizations (both professional and "fun") and work the committee structure. Do be careful of the issue which Lori Reed raises about how much work time you spend. If it is "off work" time, you are less likely to hear the issue raised. Good luck! - Michael Golrick

Deborah: I'd note two things: 1. Saying something in a textbook doesn't (automatically) make it so. 2. Yes, every manager *should* be a leader--but there are many kinds of leadership that don't involve management. (When I get material for LLN about "failed leadership," I usually put it into the management category, since it's usually about managers who aren't leaders.) - Walt Crawford

To steal from a conversation I've been having with Mary Carmen, not all leaders are managers, not all managers are leaders, and some people are both or neither. But there are lots of kinds of management -- resource management, project management, personnel management, vision management -- and all of them have a place in libraries, but not every manager is responsible for all of them.... more... - Jenica

To tail end onto what Jenica has stated, I think that anyone who is thinking about management should really think about what aspects or areas of management they are interested in going into and then evaluate their current skills and what skills they need to improve. There are many management opportunities and not everyone is suited for them, the important point is that libraries need people in these management positions and we need people who are willing to embrace the challenge. - Mary Carmen

As fun as it is to debate leadership vs. management, where I work it's pretty clear who is in management and who isn't. And it's pretty clear to the union and HR too: You either supervise people or you don't. And when you go to apply for those management positions, if you haven't supervised people before, you are at a distinct disadvantage, regardless of how many "leadership... more... - Greg Schwartz

Greg, that does seem to be the catch-22. Because, yes, I'm talking about moving into positions where I'd have to be managing people and/or money directly. It's fine to lead from wherever in the organization, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm not planning on switching to Subway or Wal-Mart, so I'll have to find ways to make it work in academic libraries. As she knows, I'm... more... - s t e v e

Psst, Steve: I got my management job without any prior supervisory experience. Maybe publibs are more loosey-goosey about that sort of stuff, though. - Rochelle Rochelle

As with most things, every institution's different. At RLG, I went from being non-management to being a low-level manager (with reports), then back to being a non-manager (but sometimes project leader), to being *called* a manager but with no reports...but, of course, that wasn't a library and certainly didn't have a union. (And other than "for ridicule," I'd never hold up my career as an example.) - Walt Crawford

Yeah, I can see that making sense. I feel kind of badly that everything I do on twitter comes into FF, even when it's...kind of irrelevant. :/ - Rochelle Mazar

It's all about the community. My local network is on Twitter, so I enjoy it more. I connect with librarians on friendfeed, though so that's my "mode" when I'm here. It's less about the interface for me, and more about the connections. (Primarily) - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

To me it feels like trying to compare apples to apple pie. Twitter is cool, and has its fans. Friendfeed combines the cool of twitter with a bunch of other ingredients to make something else. They're both awesome and tasty, but it depends a lot on what you want. - Jennifer Dittrich

Still learning about friendfeed - but like Twitter better currently due to apps that let me read twitter in my Gmail window. - celticlibrarian

I prefer the World Wide Web as a tool. It's got so many features - especially services like "Google," "twitter" and "friendfeed" that help me connect with so many people and ideas. :) - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

Twitter is simpler. They broke replies recently which can be a good reason to move to FriendFeed, but otherwise I find myself using Twitter more than FF. - Uldis Bojars

A part of the reason pro using Twitter is its great application ecosystem. For example, Twitterrific for iPhone/iPod touch provides very good user experience. Can anyone recommend an iPhone application for FriendFeed which provides the same level of functionality and aesthetics? - Uldis Bojars

FF does allow the option of hiding "types" of a friend's feeds, so you do have the option of hiding say, all of a person's delicious feeds but keeping the others available to you. I prefer Twitter to FF myself, largely b/c that's where my friends are. - mita

Strong opinion? Maybe not. Twitter didn't work for me, but that was more than a year ago. FF currently does work for me. "For me" is a key here. (Maybe I'm verbose? 140 words is 500% more than 140 characters.) - Walt Crawford

Twitter vs. Friendfeed: 1. Friendfeed is good for conversations. 2. Friendfeed has a relatively small user base and its growth seems have been stalled for some time. 3. Many Friendfeed conversations tend to be shallow; most of the best minds out there in the real world aren't Friendfeed users. 3. Twitter feels more dynamically diverse than Friendfeed, and less ingrown and cliquish. 4.... more... - Sean McBride

Just noticed again: a page of Twitter blows away a page of Friendfeed for useful news. 20 really strong news items per page, easy to absorb almost instantly. 5 seconds of scanning, and I am much better informed about the world. If one wants to discuss a Twitter item, just push it over to Friendfeed. - Sean McBride

Given the, um, neutral nature of Sean's comments, it's worth pointing out that both of them far exceed Twitter's limits. ("Most of the best minds out there" may not be Twitter users either...) - Walt Crawford

Many very smart people, like Tim O'Reilly and Jack Welch, hang out on Twitter You need to know how to find them. Regarding the character limit: I often post my tweets from Friendfeed. :) Another feature in Friendfeed's favor. As I said: use them in tandem for best results. - Sean McBride

# of followers doesn't matter Mona as long as Em's fan are engaged and participating in what he is doing. - Brandon Mendelson

# of followers matter when it comes to celebrities and traditional media. Oprah alone generated ten times more buzz than Eminem. If we give kudos for frankly, half ass marketing strategies, the industry will not move forward. - Mona Nomura

I agree, but we're talking Twitter here, not traditional media. - Brandon Mendelson

It's all interdependent. - Mona Nomura

I think comparing what Oprah does to what Eminem does is a bit of a red herring. Eminem is only as good as his latest product, Oprah is a whole industry. Eminem needs to create buzz after a 5-year hiatus, while Oprah needs to sustain it. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

I just stated a fact. Fact: Oprah generated ten times more buzz than Eminem. Why? Marketing/PR strategic differences. - Mona Nomura

It's the technique, Mona. He got people to do a local scavenger type event. It was physical and virtual at once. That's all. - Chris Brogan

I think I see Four Horsemen off in the distance. - Imitation lris

I left that tar and them feathers 'round here someplace... - D0r0th34

you mean they actually allow that to happen?? wow... :) - Sir Shuping

Brrr... its cold down here......... - Roberto Bonini

Four Horsemen. Heh. The Four Horsemen of the Wikipocalypse. - marthalib

Actually, Martha, I just edited it. Now it's the Five Horseriders (two of them are women). - josh neff, geek at large

Oh man, you are totally going to get kicked between the cites for that. - ɥsıuɐʎɹ

OK, I started a new thread to name the Many Horsemen of the Wikipocalypse: http://ff.im/32LWm - s t e v e

It all depends on what you're doing with it. - Katy S