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Gregg Scott › Comments
@Scobleizer going to delete my Facebook account on Monday and start over. i think i did it all wrong to start with. don't need 3.5K friends.
Paul Papadimitriou, Rodfather and Roberto Bonini liked this
Christine, you do need that many friends, you just need a better way to manage them. Keep the old account running. Soon there will be tools which allow you to aggregate and group your friends according to how and what you want to communicate to them.
- lisa padilla
Like Grabbit ?
- Eric Logan
I'd probably start over too. Sorting 3500 people into lists sounds like a pain in the ass.
- Rodfather
For me Twitter is for people I'm forming relationships with many of whom I've yet to meet. Facebook is for people I already have relationships and I've already met.
- Gregg Scott
Facebook has pretty good sorting tools already.
- Ben Hanten
yea, i screwed that up. i should have kept FB for friends IRL and twitter what it is. now it's all messy. *SIGH*
- Christine Lu
from email
I tried to keep Facebook for only RL friends, but it's all mixed now. I'm fine with it now that everyone is in lists and the privacy settings are tweaked for them.
- Rodfather
Facebook prevents from having two profiles, even if this doesn't seem to be enforced. Christine you're right. Will use the Facebook page, whatever people think of the Fans semantic.
- Paul Papadimitriou
from iPhone
Apparently Dylan was looking at a house for sale and didn't have ID with him. Cops didn't recognize him.
In the future the Terrorists will be cloned to look like legacy rock stars.
- Gregg Scott
Nice future.......
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
Why is that a criminal action/?
- Mark
45 Creative, Clever And Effective Blog Taglines - http://www.toprankblog.com/2009...
Adam Singer, Nick Prince and Madhav Tripathi liked this
Why 20 posts at one time?
- Gregg Scott
I think I'm going to move to Italy and become Italian. :-)
wolly, stetto, Elena Franco (DElyMyth) and 44 other people liked this
brave man
- Giorgio Jannis
We'll be glad to welcome you.
- Paola Bonomo
no, believe me, you don't want to.
- vanz
Vanz, why not? If Dave cares about quality of life, Italy's hard to beat, no matter its many heavy faults.
- Paola Bonomo
I beg to differ and agree with vanz. You don't want to, really. All that glitters etc, and Italy sure does glitter a lot.
- Giulia B.
Did you see www.italia.it?
- Andrea Buoso
[Dave, pls disregard the following rant.] Oh ma siete proprio forti. C'è un geniaccio del web che dice (probabilmente per scherzo, almeno immagino) che alla verde età di 54 anni sta facendo un pensierino al godersi il meritato successo facendo base in Italia. E voi, invece di dirgli "sì! qui ci sono un sacco di giovani che cercano dei role model e dei mentor e delle persone esperte ma...
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- Paola Bonomo
nice joke ;)
- Maurizio Goetz
[Dave, pls disregard the following rant.] Ma che cos'avete, voi guru? non vi piace che la concorrenza vi venga in casa?
- Paola Bonomo
The only thing I would move to Italy for is the food. Mmmm
- Mark
The food? But we by from France...
- braciolanet
[stage whisper] Fossi un guru, te lo saprei dire. Non sono un guru, e sconsiglio di venire a vivere in Italia. Son fatta così. [/stage whisper]
- Giulia B.
famous italian hospitality...
- Utna
That's great news! Italy can use some new Italians. More people are leaving then coming in.
- Remo
honestly: this is a really great place to live in, except for indigenous life :)
- Utna
[Dave, disregard rant.] Non ha mica detto che vuole bruciare il passaporto americano, eh. C'è chi vive sei mesi l'anno in un posto e sei mesi in un altro. Lo prenderei anche così.
- Paola Bonomo
Let's face it: Italy's a small country. Why not trade Giulia B. for Dave?
- Slow
@Paola I don't complain about italian brains escaping abroad: I believe that's the only thing to do when you live in a cultural and linguistic enclave. which is the same reason why I'd suggest Dave not to move here: it's a cultural and linguistic enclave he probably knows very little of, and much harder to communicate to - let alone adapt to - than he probably believes. and if/when he...
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- vanz
(besides, I don't see why Dave should be protected from this discussion.)
- vanz
No need to protect anybody. He's a busy guy. He'll probably just ignore it.
- Paola Bonomo
Just when you think you're just voicing your opinion, somebody has to be snide and insulting about it. I stand by what I said, don't move to Italy: we're not nice people.
- Giulia B.
Come Dave! September is the "coolest month": RomagnaCamp and MotoGP Misano Adriatico: you'll never want to go back:-)
- Marco Massarotto
I'm proud to be nasty, and sometimes to have a firmly planted-in-cheek tongue, for those who get it. Besides food, that is what Italy is all about, as well.
- Slow
"buongiorno immobiliare" :)
- roberta milano
Roberta, that makes my heart go pitter patter! :-)
- Dave Winer
manco italia. voglio di andare a firenze, cinque terre e il sud.
- stanleyyork
Think twice about it about Mr Winer. Becoming italian means also to leave obama for berlusconi.... that said, we would welcome you anyway with great pleasure :)
- Alessio Jacona
contact me for couchsurfing! :)
- elena (senzaaggettivi)
Great choice!
- Stefano Pietroiusti
from twhirl
I'd kinda like to become American. Wanna trade? :-)
- livefast
You are welcome Dave, smart people are always welcome and needed
- Marcello Del Bono
LOL! From web paradise to web hell. Really wanna trade? :)
- TommaSorchiotti
@davewiner if you want to move to Italy you can ask @bruces for his experience living part of the year in Turin...
- David Orban
@TommaSorchiotti: "web hell" is a crude exaggeration. Ever tried China?
- Paola Bonomo
poof! wait does it work like that? Don't you have to go through some initiation to complete the transformation, something akin to Mumra the ever living from Thundercats (too obscure?)
- Mark Essel
"BRAVO" !
- Marco Castellani
I had no idea there were so many Italians on FriendFeed.
- Dave Winer
in Italy we're even trying to not spread FF too much, just to keep it as our "happy few" garden ;-) something like "no FBers allowed here"
- Andrea Martines
Cool, great idea Dave, Venice could be the right place to live. Art, history, multichannel, multiethnic and free internet wireless connection for residents :)
- Irada Pallanca
@dave great! ... or a joke? say more please...
- metakappa aka gino
so italian... to talk bad about italy.
- Francesco OC
Please do it :-) Italy is wonderful, italians (but for Vanz,Giulia B & jacona &sorchiotti) are fantastic.
- wolly
no seriously what Obama was really trying to say was that they should f#(% Israel, not your wife. It's nice and all but I think Obama prefers the 16 year old girl http://ff.im/55PdR
- Noah David Simon
he is a slug....
- Jan Gregory
naaaaaaaaah-eeeeeeesh! at least this time Obama wasn't bending over
- Noah David Simon
What happened to the other one?
- Michael Fidler
I'm denying it like the media http://ff.im/56ANm
- Noah David Simon
What a pathetic post and a waste of bandwith.
- Gregg Scott
I know... how pathetic that we have a president that can't control his behavior. how embarrassing. wish he could do something positive like defend our country. but when he isn't busy being a hound dog he is a bigger double talker then Michael Jackson was. hmmm similarity maybe? they both were worshipped by the feeble minded
- Noah David Simon
how is it that they have two different photos of the same thing? it's damn undeniable that there was a little man party going on. you can't spin it.
- Noah David Simon
It is obvious that the Mubarak isn't pleased at being put in the position http://simonstudiotheatre.blogspot.com/2009...
- Noah David Simon
AudioBoo: Sunday In The Park With Yi Hong http://audioboo.fm/boos/37137
Shawn Garcia, Sam Richards, Enda Scully and 5 other people liked this
Audio really conveys so much. I loved the recording of the musicians. Keep the 'boos' flowing!
- Gregg Scott
I suggest that this list violates the unofficial #followfriday guidelines of highlighting way too many folks.
David Young, Sheryl, Jeremy Schultz and 52 other people liked this
That's hilarious.
- τorƍue
I completely agree.
- Chris Foley
I'm seeing the same this morning - spammers?
- Jesse Stay
But at least you got a mention :)
- Simon Wicks
Right, Simon. Or I would never have seen it. :)
- Louis Gray
I unfollow #ff timeline flooders. Give me one name and some context as to why they are worth my attention.
- Gregg Scott
Gregg: agree, don't understand names with no context.... why should I follow these people? at least, what do they tweet about?
- Alistair (alpinefolk)
I like to wrap my friday follows around a theme, that I state. It just makes it more ... legitimate? unspammy? fun and/or gives a reason for people to follow instead of just "increase your #s" (which always reminds me of those ads in the back of teeniebopper magazines, "increase your bust", but anyways.)
- anna sauce
follow friday must die
- Tyler Gillies
follow friday has turned into back-patting. I want to know why a person is recommended.
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
Lists like that are designed, so that the sender shows up on the feed of ALL the people they recommend. It's a spammy ploy, used to gain followers. The list itself is meaningless.
- Jim Connolly
Haha, yea... That's some serious #FollowFriday overkill going on right there! Geesh!
- Susan Beebe
I got #followfriday from somebody who doesn't even follow me. I want to write back and be like "Dude, practice what you preach."
- Jared Smith
I get this from a few followers, too. You go to their profiles and there are these huge blocks of pointless #followfriday recommendations, which must amount to almost their entire network. I've yet to follow anybody who has been recommending through #followfriday as part of a group of usernames. The personal touch is what it's all about. #followfriday has long, long jumped whatever shark it might have once had.
- Shéa Bennett
Jared, he might be 'following' you unofficially, via a group in Seesmic Desktop, or similar.
- Shéa Bennett
My follow Fridays are always one person + a reason.
- Eric Florenzano
I can't be sure about his but I don't remember anyone with less than 200 followers getting upset about a #followfriday mention. I understand the point. #followfriday is about sincere recommendations, but we have all had moments in life where enthusiasm overcame judgment. "Getting Social Media" can feel like being 16 again, if someone stumbles and falls let's lift them up, however if they never want to get up, then fair enough call them for violating the #FollowFriday culture.
- Deano @ Byron New Media
How many people have you ever started following after a #followfriday "recommendation"? Me: 0.
- Zackatoustra
Follow certain guidelines for #followfriday, tis is anonymous spam list
- Michael_techie
Another example - check this guy's current page of tweets: http://twitter.com/BobWarren
- Hutch Carpenter
Dos muchos.
- Derrick
I figure if I wanted to follow your entire list of followed people, I could, I don't know, look at your list of followed people.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
#followfriday @*
- Matt Soreco
I've unfollowed at least three people for stuff like this. Follow Friday is a nice idea, but I'll never leaf through those long-ass lists. I'm even unlikely to look at five -- one or two good recommendations are so much more effective.
- Jennifer Dittrich
#followfriday has mapped some of the network for new people but it's use[fulness] for them will fade... So you could say #followfriday is the blogroll of Twitter
- carl morris
Jesse: No, not spammers. Topfollowfriday.com competitors. Weaksauce.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
I may be the contrarian here but to me it depends on how it is done. I send out lists of the very best Twitter users in specific niches. Each Tweet specifies what those individuals specialize in so anyone reading them instantly knows whether they would be interested or not. I do regularly follow those recommended by #followfriday and have found some really great Tweeters by doing so. I...
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- Internet Strategist
Follow Friday is pretty lame, no explanations about these wonderful people we should be following.
- Spirit 2.0
As someone who has been honored to be listed in a few Follow Friday lists, I do have to (more politely) echo Spirit's thought here; I think the lists would be so much more valuable if they included a bit of context. Hmm, okay, so there's no room for that on Twitter, but a tweet posted from FF with context in the comments... that'd be pure gold :-).
- Adam Lasnik
I don't know the #FF guidelines, but as a rule of thumb, I usually just do top 5-7 FF at end of week, not all my twitter buddies. In other words, I just use common sense, not the guidelines.
- Acevedo Oscar
I think that the twitter community should limit the # of FF tweets that we each send on Friday.. if someone sends over the limit then that should be frowned upon... what if everyone was only limited to 10 FF tweets each Friday? That would really change things.
- Jason Pollock
I usually provide context around why I recommend following, even if it is a humorous reason #ff should be who you actually follow
- Danny Keith
I also group my #ff so that i provide a snapshot of the tweeps. i don't have time to research every follow friday, but when one comes through grouped or reason given i am more inclined to follow.
- Danny Keith
Hey guys... what about a Top 10? **The best of the best.** Would this provide incentive for er'body to step up their overall game?
- Kim Sherrell
It would be nice for FollowFriday to just be real good solid recommendations. But I see so many mention everyone they can in the hopes of being mentioned back (thus gaming themselves to the tops of lists)
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
And BTW: HI KIM! :) Glad you made it over here! (sorry I missed you last week)
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
I just want to know who this "scoboliezer" guy is. I want to follow him. ;)
- Jeremy Schultz
@Jason If Twitter limited folks to 10 FF Tweets each Friday I suspect most would only recommend the high profile folks and some great lesser Tweeters would never get recommended. There are different kinds of people who use Twitter. Those who operate exclusively in one niche might only have a handful of sincere recommendations. Those of us who operate across many niches know of the best in many areas. That is what makes following us valuable: the ability to find the best people in overlapping areas.
- Internet Strategist
Live now: Windows Weekly 112 with Paul Thurrott. http://live.twit.tv. Discuss here....
Michael Hansel, Andre Vautour, Daniel Rowley and 12 other people liked this
is this really live?
- kent williams
Oh yeah. If it weren't live could I do this?
- Leo Laporte
the thing is, if a journalist knows something, do they not have a responsibility to report it regardless?
- David Lloyd
Item 1: Morro news
- Leo Laporte
But the story has been reported all over the web including Neowin, surely the NDA means nothing now?
- David Lloyd
Item 2: Windows 7 is at the finish line Build 7260 is the first "RTM escrow" build nothing new to report, but we got the new final default wallpaper in a previous build over the past week
- Leo Laporte
Item 3: How Microsoft could screw up the Windows 7 launch
- Leo Laporte
What does Paul think of Google Wave and how is it going to change Microsoft's Live stuff?
- Shawn Hudgins
not much chat on friendfeed, normally Windows Weekly gets 300-500 comments each week
- David Lloyd
It's because I'm at the dr's office :)
- Bwana ☠
Because the EU would have just one more thing to go after them about.
- Shawn Hudgins
Is the banner on the bottom suppose to be GoToMyMeeting.com when Leo is talking about GoToMyPC?
- Jason Rundell
+Jason Rundell
- Kim Landwehr
I hate this world in which we have to convince people to buy things to make a living. I wish we lived in a star trek world with no currency needed :)
- David Lloyd
Bwana! Pay attention! He's got a scalpel in his hand!
- Leo Laporte
Item 4: Windows 7 vs. Snow Leopard It's on! (Sort of) I'm starting a multi-part OS comparison Let's talk about it
- Leo Laporte
The Windows 7 graphics engine changes the way DWM, introduced with Vista, works, it also comes with new APIs, D2D and DWrite, a new Direct3D 11, and better handling of multiple output devices. http://bit.ly/5wEcN
- Usman Bashir
Item 5: Bing is (still) off to a fast start Jumped from 7 to 10+ percent usage share in one week And then to 12+ percent in two If this was Apple, there would be a PR about "50 percent growth in two weeks" Could be temporary, but good for them
- Leo Laporte
@Leo The big question I think is can they sustain (or even continue growing) without that $100 million campaign pushing Bing?
- Eoghann Irving
They are having a positive run so far, windows 7, zune hd, bing, project natal
- Kashif Khan
not to mention the future add ons and improvements for xbox live marketplace.
- Nelson Mateo
Item 6: Google goes after Exchange Part 2, the Quickening Microsoft fires back with loss of functionality claim
- Leo Laporte
A cynical man might think that Microsoft was pulling out the old FUD bag of tricks. Or maybe it really does break stuff.
- Eoghann Irving
Too bad Bing Cashback is only available in US. I would love to be able to use it.
- Doug Slater
@Leo Laporte Have you noticed any physical side effects from having so much technology around you all the time?
- Jason Rundell
Call it "He Said, He Said"
- Steve Mesik
Wow the quality of the video is amazing I just found you I miss tech tv and stoped watching after they changed the format are you going to start hosting live like u tube
- hollyseven
hi GUYS THE VEDIOS WOT\RKING FINE BUTT THE AUDIO ISENT HOPE ITS FIXED SOON
- daveccorey
still no audio on stick cam or tech tv
- daveccorey
I bet Leo is held up picking up his iPhone 3GS for unboxing.
- Gregg Scott
SOUNDS BACK ON ALLRIGHTY THEN
- daveccorey
There is a TWIF show in the reruns that was recorded without audio till close to the end.
- russellcoleman
More Men May Be Opening Their Eyes to Makeup - http://www.bellasugar.com/3329103
"As the saying goes, put your best face forward — but does a best face always include makeup . . . even for men? Well, the findings of a recent survey show that more than 80 percent of Korean men think that looking "tidy" gives their performance an extra boost in the workplace."
- Shevonne
from Bookmarklet
Is this true?
- Shevonne
Gregg, why do you say that?
- Rochelle
Gay, Greg? What are you, 9?
- Admiral Anika
On a good day.
- Gregg Scott
It's a marketing ploy like Valentine's Day and Mother's Day before it.
- Gregg Scott
Gregg, I'm not sure how a marketing strategy is homosexual.
- Rochelle
Wow. Just wow.
- Rochelle
*doesn't like where this is headed* im too lazy for make up :)
- Frankie Warren
So, Gregg, you think that "gay" is okay as an insult.
- Admiral Anika
I know there are huge cultural and marketing forces attempting to turn Men into Women and Women into Men but it's time we put an end to all that nonsense.
- Gregg Scott
Give me a break. Did everyone take their politically correct pills tonight.
- Gregg Scott
In summary: Gregg Scott thinks that 1) Gay is okay as an insult, because "the model looks Gay" 2) That apparently only gay men wear make up or would want to and 3) "turn[ing] Men into Women and Women into Men" is "nonsense". What a winner.
- Admiral Anika
That's a leading question and not what I said or did.
- Gregg Scott
Gregg... just back away from the keyboard slowly... DROP THE MOUSE MOTHERFUCKER YOURE UNDER ARREST!!
- Adrian
Where did Anika ask "a leading question"?
- Rochelle
You've totally misinterpreted my remarks to suit your heavily biased and gender-political point of view.
- Gregg Scott
You're high. And the worst kind of troll. How very Sarah Palin of you.
- Gregg Scott
Gregg, may I put my penis in you?
- Akiva Moskovitz
I'm not wearing make-up.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Dude, there are pills for that.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Hm. I'll take that as a 'yes'.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Awww. I'm totally crying and stuff.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Let me just check... Am I Male?: Check! Am I heterosexual?: Check! Do I have a gender-political point?: Nope... cool. Gregg, using gay as an insult, even in a 'Grade 4 boy would say it' way sucks... you know how I know it sucks, cause using Gay in a 'Grade 4 boy would say it' also sucks. That is the issue.
- Johnny Worthington
Johnny, I bet Gregg would appreciate your bra-and-lipstick picture. :)
- Rochelle
Shhhhhhhhh..... I said Check :P
- Johnny Worthington
I wonder if Gregg's seen American Beauty lately. I hope he doesn't own any firearms.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Read the thread before you join the flame war. I never used gay as an insult. I think wearing make-up is something gay men will do. Is that an insult? If you think it is. I have no judgement about that.
- Gregg Scott
Oh cool... I did read the thread, thanks. Your first comment was 'Gaaaaaayyy'... not much room for interpretation there son. Then you go into "I think wearing make-up is something gay men will do" which is wrong, sorry, but it is. Some men wear make up and only some of them are gay. If you want to make a point in a thread 'Gaaaaaayyy' is not a good lead off.
- Johnny Worthington
Johnny, he deleted that comment. What he fails to understand is that we often, y'know, make screenshots. Heh heh heh.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Sorry. It's hard to take anuyone seriously who would choose that shade of lipstick in their FriendFeed profile pic.
- Gregg Scott
I've got screenshots. Who wants 'em? :)
- Rochelle
I stand corrected. Gay men, overly feminized and metrosexual men will and do wear make-up. Sweet Christ...
- Gregg Scott
Wow - we really jump on folks who aren't tolerant don't we? How... not tolerant and stuff. Not that I want to tolerate it, but still. lol - I was just thinking how FF has a pretty much unspoken code of conduct and we slam the hell out of whoever won't play by the rules of being nice and courteous. And yeah, I guess I'm ok with that.
- Chrimmus Tad
SHUT UP TAD
- Akiva Moskovitz
I'll jump on anyone who is homophobic. If he had come in and posted that he didn't like grapefruit or didn't like Wii, I wouldn't care and would have let him go off about that. But homophobia is something I won't tolerate.
- Rochelle
I don't need lipstick Gregg... All natural
- Johnny Worthington
And for the record, no way in hell am I going to wear makeup. Because I perceive it as being pretty feminine and that just doesn't fit into my particular.... idiom!
- Chrimmus Tad
So I guess Gregg's okay with gay men who don't wear make-up and don't put mousse in their hair? So Gregg's butch. He likes it rough. Nothing wrong with that.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Rochelle, what if I don't like gay grapefruit(hypothetically). I'm not a homophobe and I like my citrus fruits just fine. Can't stand gay grapefruit.
- Jimminy Fuller
GAY GRAPEFRUIT?! WTF.
- Akiva Moskovitz
James, I'm going to go ahead and hope you're making a joke here.
- Rochelle
Yeah, I was just being sarcastic, but sometimes I do wonder about what inanimate objects would do if they were animate.
- Jimminy Fuller
GAY GRAPEFRUIT?! WTF.
- Akiva Moskovitz
And, ladies and gentlemen, this is where the thread turns left... :D
- Johnny Worthington
@James They would beat our asses for eating them.
- Shevonne
I have seen an animated grapefruit. He was singing a song about fruit juice. No. Sorry. I am making that up.
- Ruud van Wijngaarden
James, it's all about WHY you don't like the gay grapefruit. If you don't like grapefruit, then that's ok, if you don't like grapefruit because of it's sexual origin, then you are a homophobe. Now, what if the fruit was asexual?
- Johnny Worthington
GREGG SCOTT WHERE ARE YOU I WANT TO PUT SOME LIPSTICK ON YOUR OPEN-MINDEDNESS
- Akiva Moskovitz
(i wanna make him purdy)
- Akiva Moskovitz
He disappeared after he heard I have screenshots of his deleted comments.
- Rochelle
Johnny, it's because just imagining what those grapefruits would be doing with their stems, wouldn't mind if they were asexual.
- Jimminy Fuller
He's rubbing a photograph of Dick Cheney all over his throat.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Gregg, it's utter horseshit that you'd dare say I'm misrepresenting your remarks. Everything in quotes is WHAT YOU SAID before you chickened out and deleted your comments. I have screen shots.
- Admiral Anika
But back to the original post: I've always known guys who wore foundation and eyeliner, all the way back to high school. Yes, most of them were Asian, but lately I've seen Latino and white guys do it too. I can't judge. I don't wear makeup unless forced to.
- Admiral Anika
Live now: The Daily Giz Week (6 episodes) with Mad's Maddest Writer, Dick DeBartolo. http://live.twit.tv. Discuss here...
Michael Hansel, Andre Vautour, Bill Heslin and Darren Landrum liked this
Ya! Listener from Day 1 here!
- Mike Wills
Leo, when does your Google podcast start?
- Craig
Can someone help me get back into the IRC. I've been locked out by Dan,
- Gregg Scott
Be Young With Resveratrol http://smallbusinesssystem.pro2sell.com/2009...
Why did I just see 20 of your posts flood my FriendFeed. Yikes.
- Gregg Scott
Live now: Leo Laporte and The Tech Guy radio show on the Premiere Radio Network or watch live at http://live.twit.tv. Discuss here...
Michael Hansel, Daniel Rowley, Charlie Anzman and 3 other people liked this
Hilarious! http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- Adam Jefferson
that would be great if I wasn't stuck in traffic listening on my BB Bold :-b
- Lillian Banchik
from IM
Leo doing the Pre review or did I miss it already?
- min
Last week. Or was he going to do a more complete review this week?
- Matt Young
I thought maybe he would update after a weeks use
- min
Oh wow.
- Austin Yun
Boris Karloff will be pinging you Leo.
- min
my msi wind is lucky if it makes 1.5hrs on battery
- min
went to sprint yesterday, you have to get on waiting list, no store stock. guess palm can't afford to pay for inventory
- min
Anyone know what Leo uses to get that black friendfeed feed on the screen you see sometimes?
- Matt Young
Matt - could be a greasemonkey script?
- Mike Bracco
http://www.confickerworkinggroup.org/infecti... - per duckman
- min
Sounds like the next guy needs SpinRite.
- Austin Yun
Looking very smart today Leo, what's the occasion?
- Najeeb Mirza
I'd like Dan to remove the block he placed on my ISP so I can participate in the IRC. How do I go about doing this?
- Gregg Scott
Weird diagram explaining the benefits of Yakult - http://www.yakultusa.com/company...
Rick Cogley, Felicia Yue, Simon and 6 other people liked this
I grew up drinking this stuff in Hong Kong, so I was happy to see it being sold in Bay Area Safeways.
- Jess Lee
from Bookmarklet
It's not wierd at all. If you drink Yakult you will turn into an elderly couple or a pig with a coin slot in your back.
- Gregg Scott
I freaked out when I saw it at Safeway. Immediately froze a few for hot-day consumption.
- Richard Chen
sounds interesting. never heard of it
- Cee Bee
As a kid the only time I could have these were my annual summer vacation trips back to Taiwan. Nowadays my toddler drinks one a day. Is there any difference between the Yakult ones and the myriad knock off brands available at Asian supermarkets?
- ronin
Cee Bee, Yakult has been around for ages. Before most Westerners even knew "probiotic" was a word. ;-)
- ronin
益力多
- yagami
dumb westerner ------------------->
- Cee Bee
The TV ads showing live bacteria under a microscope always made me feel funny - though I'll have to admit to downing gallons of this stuff in my youth.
- τorƍue
@Richard: whoa, I've never tried them frozen.
- Jess Lee
To me, there are 2 brands: Vitagen and Yakult. I grew up drinking vitagen :)
- BeeLing
@Jess Tips on frozen: http://cookpad.com/recipe... Caution if you over-freeze it will burst out of the container!
- Richard Chen
今日饮左未？
- Paul
i used to only be able to get these on vacations to Hong Kong. Now they have TV national commercials here in the US. Crazy. I don't notice a big difference b/t Vitagen and Yakult. Both are delicious
- Felicia Yue
When we were young, my sister and I would spend summers in the Taiwanese countryside with my mom's parents. My grandfather would give us Yakult (and Oligo too!) as treats on hot summer afternoons. Oh, I just teared up revisiting that memory... :)
- Jennie Lin
There are "yakult ladies" who drive around in special scooters selling the Yakult products, in Japan. I like Yakult. Here in Japan we say: ya-koo-roo-to.
- Rick Cogley
Question for you all. I have a trademark for TWiT® - first used in May 2005, trademark applied for May 2006 and registered March 2007. The trademark is in "Entertainment in the nature of visual and audio performances, and musical, variety, news and comedy shows." http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin...
Dobromir Hadzhiev, Richard Thomson, Dakota O'Neill and 186 other people liked this
Up until now there's been no conflict with Twitter itself because the brands were in different arenas. (We have, however, sent out cease and desist letters to companies using "twit" in their name and doing audio or video). But now Twitter is doing a TV show. The confusion between TWiT and Twitter is mounting. What do I do? Defend my mark? Or let my brand be swallowed by the big guy (even though we were first by several years)? I need your advice. What does the community think?
- Leo Laporte
Defend your trademark, 99% of people will totally understand, you have to do it, or you'll loose it!
- Chris Lloyd
Defend it. People that watch Twit Tv will also defend it.
- Jason Rundell
Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Does TWIT still stand up as an accurate brand for all the new stuff you are doing with TWIT Live? Might be time to find a new visual/brand identity.
- BryanSchuetz
At the SF MusicTech conference a lawyer called "tweets" "twits" repeatedly. Let's just say I think you should defend your mark and let TV chew up and spit out twitter.
- Richard pancakhaus Walker
I don't see how the brand of Twitter infringes on your trademark. Plus trademarks are an outdated ideal. You need to market and promote your brand and the people will come.
- Bob Blunk
Bryan: The TWiT name carries alot of weight in tech circles, it will take alot of money/time/effort to make a completely new name for something that will probably outlast twitter anyway
- Chris Lloyd
Incidentally, Twitter just got their trademark approved May 11, 2009 in the following "Telecommunication services, namely, providing online and telecommunication facilities for real-time interaction between and among users of computers, mobile and handheld computers, and wired and wireless communication devices; enabling individuals to send and receive messages via email, instant...
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- Leo Laporte
There is nothing ideal about any aspect of IP law.
- Richard pancakhaus Walker
Chris: I think Leo's name carries more weight than TWIT and (for me at least) he IS TWIT so I don't see it as quite such a big deal.
- BryanSchuetz
Of course, there's a larger long-term problem because of the way that Twitter has weakened _your_ brand. It might be less expensive (and a better use of your time) to rebrand TWiT into something that strengthens your brand and moves it away from Twitter; avoiding any future problems (and there will be future problems). You can't fight Oprah.
- Professor Messer
I guess Leo started a shit-storm here...The question goes far beyond the argument of Twitter vs. TWIT. It begs the question of how do Brands defend their government protected trademarks in a time when trademarks are failing to adequately describe what a company does. Do we need a trademark to know that Leo creates awesome podcasts and streams realtime shows via the internet? Plus, how could a trademark impart this knowledge to newcomers?
- Bob Blunk
Leo - your brand, as most evidenced by your show and content is awesome - for a small group of peeps who have had a chance to discover it and enjoy. I'd use the overlap in marques to leverage Twitter in some type of promotional / service partnership, whilst still retaining your brand and the equity you've built. Don't fight em, join em, at least tactically.
- Thom Kennon
Never give in to the big guy!
- Brian Harper
I'm with the majority, defend your trademark and your legacy.
- jcunwired
Defend it Leo. You built the brand and they need to honor that.
- Robert
I always thought calling the network the same name as a show on the network was wierd. But it's a recognized brand, and I wouldn't give in. Send some mails to all the twitvid.io's out there.
- Anton Tanderup
Is the BIG guy really that Big? Plus, with the way busines is changing one thing seems to remain the same...protectionism, let's sue someone it's easier. I'm suggesting your desicion is easy here Leo but in light of the landscape changing do you really have a chance? The other question to ponder is this, Twitter is the hot thing now but will it be 5 years from now and will it be true...
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- Owen Greaves
speaking from a british point of view a twit is someone who is a little silly or stupid. I think your podcast can stand up against the everising onslaught of twitter. Why not rise above all this discussion and say what you are This week in technology, a fantastic poscast full of wit and essential information for gadget freaks such as myself. Let the owners of twitter gabble on, in my book baby creatures twitter and you are certainly no TWIT.
- Chris Jennings
@ Professor Messer 'You can't fight Oprah' is not totally correct. You can FIGHT her, can you win? Maybe. I think, offline, Leo VS Oprah would go several rounds. Tweetfight says otherwise.
- Jason Rundell
Defend it Leo. What's the use in having a trademark if others can infringe upon it.
- TechListReport
Sorry to say, my girlfriend recently yelled at my for watching 'Twitter' when I was really watching TWiT live. Confusion does exist for people who don't fully understand what each service is.
- Wo
The good thing about trademark law is that it's well established and legally documented. The problem with trademark law is that it's well established and legally documented. You need a brand to create awareness, and you need the trademark to protect your established brand. This one is sticky because TWiT is well established but it's going to be an expensive brand to protect. Twitter's...
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- Professor Messer
@Jason Rundell, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a cage match between Leo and Oprah (who wouldn't?). But it'll cost a lot of time and money. Sometimes it's better to be smarter than the legal system.
- Professor Messer
I'm not sure I fully understand where the perceived trademark issue is. The names are similar, but clearly different. I don't know that Twitter is making any efforts or attempts to infringe on the TWiT brand, particularly in the area specified ""Entertainment in the nature of visual and audio performances, and musical, variety, news and comedy shows." I agree and understand the brand...
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- Ken Camp
The fact is, the brand that really matters here is not TWiT, but Leo Laporte. I came to TWiT because of you, Leo, not because of the name. That being said, I'll stand behind whatever decision you make.
- Darren Landrum
Oh, and I think this is just the opportunity we need to resubscribe our iTunes and take over the top 10 lists. :)
- Professor Messer
Can I ask - did TWiT exist before Twitter? Or did Twitter exist first? And - is your name TWiT based on Twitter, at all?
- Chris Loft
Chris Loft: TWiT predates Twitter and comes from This week in tech...
- Chris Lloyd
I think it's only right to defend your trademark Leo. You were there way before Twitter and just because they have gained significantly increased attention and media coverage, doesn't mean you have to lay down and submit to Twitter. I would defend your mark vigorously if I were you. You've worked hard to build your brand.
- Marty McPadden
Chris Loft proves that there is confusion between the two.
- Anton Tanderup
Leo - TWit is an incredible brand and network of invaluable podcasts - you simply have to defend it
- Robert Davies
Fight for it. When they try to get additional financing make your move. Asserting your trademark will cause them to settle or buy you out when they go public.
- Alan Morris
I think that once you see the Twitter television show, you'll probably want to distance yourself as far away as possible.
- Professor Messer
Defend your trademark. I get more intellectual engagement from the TWiT network of shows than I do from most of my Twitter community.
- Eric Geller
Use whatever legal tools you have available to defend your brand, especially if Twitter is talking about crossing into audio/video. You have a strong product, and Twitter is creating brand confusion in the market. A hard line needs to be drawn between your product and theirs, and it's clear that they are not going to keep a respectful distance with TWiT.
- Jason Miller
You have to rise above the emotion and make a business decision. How much will it cost you to defend versus how much will you gain? Simple cost/benefit. My guess is that this fight will cause you to lose focus on your work, be a financial hardship as you go up against a company with VC backing, and all for the "possibility" that you will win and maybe get some compensation from Twitter....
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- Tom Sheppard
I thought twitvid.com was the new video netcasts Leo has been talking about, boy was I surprised!
- Daniel Rinaman
It has to be defended.Giving up and letting another company take your brand, no matter how big the company or personal feelings toward the owner, can not be an option. You built your brand and should defend it.
- David Z
Defend it Leo!
- Gunny doesn't side-hug™
You need to defend it Leo. You had the trademark first.
- imperator3733
How about a name like LeoCast... No confusion there.
- Rustic Thoughts
Agree don't let the big dog scare you..you have the law on your side
- Randy Pollock
It's YOUR mark Leo and you have worked hard to make it as well-known as it is. Defend what's yours!!
- Jim Connolly
Twitter will be virtually gone like Classmates and MySpace in a few years... Keep the name!
- Rick Harvey
Leo: As others have said, you can initiate legal action, but I doubt you'd win. TWiT is based upon an acronym (This Week in Tech). Twitter is not an acronym, it's a word unto itself. Twitter doesn't use the term "twit" by itself; the word is always used fully (though some people snidely call Twitter users "twits"). Until you launched a microblogging area on your site, TWiT and Twitter...
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- Dwight Silverman
yes defend your trademark
- Alfonso alatorre
Add to all this another twist. While TWiT is trademarked, twit is a common language word which can't be trademarked. That adds a dash of ambiguity to the whole issue.
- Ken Camp
Twit came before Twitter I think you should defend it. it is dumb anyways Twit and Twitter is not even the same word, it would be like CocaCola suing Coconut because of COC
- URLREVIEWS
Twitter is going to be a realty show based on stalking celebrities. It wont last more than one season.
- Rustic Thoughts
I say let it roll. Your a 'big guy' in your own field, but Twitter is bigger. Play off of them. You could be bigger. Look at all the petty stuff that Microsoft did..and where did it get them? Bad Press.
- Gene
To keep your trademark you must defend it if it's being violated.
- CT Raider
I think Twitter has the brand and you don't right now. Maybe Twitter should buy it from you or you should collaborate with twitter to monetize and add your TWiT to twitter
- Amit 'zyaada' Mittal
I certainly think you should defend your trademark, isn't that why you registered?
- dcale1965
I checked Twitter's own site and it looks like Twitter launched March 1, 2006. TWiT was around well before then. Being in tech, I find it hard to believe they hadn't heard of him. It was a big podcast even then. I knew of TWiT well before Twitter. This may seem like a dumb issue to some, but a lot of people I recommended the podcast to now ask me if "it's a Twitter thing."
- JeffreyVC
Ev told me that when they were considering names for Twitter they knew about TWiT and decided it didn't matter. In their defense, they had no idea what or how big Twitter was to become. We talked about trademark early on and both agreed there was no conflict _as long as we were in different spaces_. And therein lies the rub.
- Leo Laporte
Apple Computer and Apple records recently went through this -- what was the outcome there?
- Brian Sullivan
I thought it wasn't clear infringement when Twitter came out but now that there is Twit video the infringement is very clear. I would defend.
- Robert Scoble
Lawyers are expensive. Legal fights are draining. You could spend the rest of your professional life fighting this battle. I don't know what's been going on in the back channel, and you probably shouldn't say publicly, but if you haven't tried approaching the Twitter board members privately, you might want to. Lay out the facts carefully, and if you're open to a settlement, say roughly...
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- Dave Winer
Legally, if you do not actively defend your trademark in every infringement then you will have difficulty *EVER* defending it. This isn't an anti-Twitter thing, just a simple business practice, Leo.
- Kevin Donahue
"Clear Infringement". How exactly? It's a lose/lose for Twitter if they choose to encroach or even litigate.
- Adi
Yeah but Leo added video later. And now Twitter is adding video. The real issue is that there is no clear separation between a radio/video network and a social microblogging site these days. And our trademarking system is so ridiculous that these kinds of conflicts go completely unnoticed all the time.
- JeffreyVC
I'd say it's time to either re-brand TWiT or defend it. Deferring the decision and just living with the confusion and ambiguity is no longer an option.
- Ken Sheppardson
Defend your trademark
- Lars Clausen
Defend your brand Leo.The World Wide Fund for Nature took on the WWF and made them change their name to WWE. If they can do it, so can you.
- Bryan Lee
The big problem with defending it... beyond the unfortunate fact that it's a drain on resources that could be better spent elsewhere... is it's not clear how you'd win. They're not going to change their name. They'll forever be Twitter. Is it sufficient to somehow "ban" them from ever doing anything in video? Enforcing that in perpetuity's would only raise your blood pressure.
- Ken Sheppardson
I would take the emotion out of the equation -- find out what it would cost to defend and determine what it is worth to have exclusive/non-exclusive use (maybe some subjectivity here) and make the decision using that information.
- Brian Sullivan
I say defend it but only so much as to bring more media attention to your brand... once you have the media's attention you can use that to change the brand identity if you so choose. Your followers myself included will stay fans no matter what you call your brand, but I think you have an opportunity to expand and use twitter as a means of gaining media attention!
- Nathan McClain
If you don't do this you wont have a leg to stand on in the future when you need to really protect it. I can piss all over your trademark if you do not defend it.
- David Lloyd
Leo: in a trademark fight what is the ROI? I am sure it will be very expensive and not sure you will get much in return but if you forced Twitter to change its name I am sure they would quickly settle with you.
- Robert Scoble
I still think Twitter will be as irrelevant as MySpace in 2 years, but it's your brand to protect.
- Mike Lewis
Ideal Outcome: A $$$ settlement sufficient to comfortably fund the rebranding of TWiT.
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert makes a very good point. This could get messy and expensive, although it seems like those guys are VERY hard to work/interact with.
- Brian Daniel Eisenberg
while bryan lee makes a good point, their battles took a long time to resolve. but, don't let this deter you. i would suggest you defend it. if anything, i see you have a strong case and whatever happens can be in your favour. it's possible twitter can concede in infringing in your trademark and may be even consider licensing through the course of the battle. but be very, very patient for any outcome to happen.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Dave: wrong. Leo is who got me on Twitter. His marks were more popular and predated Twitter's.
- Robert Scoble
Leo got me into twitter too!
- Jim Connolly
I think Leo has a good chance at wining his case since he did register the copyright first. Twitter is still not a money making business. They are living off of VC money. They will probably not have the funds to mount a case since their money will be tied up with keeping twitter afloat. Am I right?
- Bryan Lee
Leo also got me on Twitter shortly after they went public.
- Mike Bracco
regarding AMF, Inc. v. Sleekcraft Boats, 599 F.2d 341 (9th Cir. 1979) the battle was very different. one of the things found was that the company had an 'infinity' of other brands to choose. it's a very different situation in detail, although it looks comparable at face value.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Or just have them become a premium sponsor. There used to be so much twitter talk before, I think they really should be owing you some gratitude for the traffic.
- Adi
As part of any settlement, you should demand Ev and Biz concede that individual Twitter entries are "Tweets", as embarrassed as they seem to be by that. They're net "twits" or "twitters"... they're "tweets".
- Ken Sheppardson
i'm sure something can be negotiated with twitter. a lawsuit in this case would show you're just defending your trademark because they are encroaching in your territory. you're not taking them on what they are known to do, their core competency. rather, it's stepping into your own grounds.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
not doing anything on purpose may weaken your trademark. many court cases also end up not going through the entire ordeal.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Yep, I agree the day has come where it's either fight or flight. And I don't mean that quite the way it sounds. :-/
- Ken Sheppardson
Defend!!!!
- Mark Williamson
from BuddyFeed
I don't think you have much choice. Either you defend it or you lose it.
- Pascal Sijen
dave johnson: true, there's always a degree of uncertainty; but that doesn't mean giving up in defending one's investment in a trademark. it can be argued pragmatically and it's to the point where leo must defend his territory upon which twitter is encroaching. aye.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
I'm not sure you can win, are we aren't even sure what they're going to call it yet. If it ends up being Twitter.TV you have no chance to beat them.
- DarknessFalls
There is even a shortening service called: http://twitpwr.com/ - The brand must be defended.
- David Z
Leo: You must defend it or lose it. They need to know you also have the muscle behind you. I have the attorney that did all the trademark work for Terminator 1-4, Rambo, old timer who knows every angle. I have him on retainer and would love to join your cause. I can arrange a chat with him at no cost, then you can decide to move ahead, or if the cost seems to steep, I would be interested in partnering with you on the trademark. Fight on Leo! Let me know if you want to chat Thx Chad
- Chad Harris
Reading this I'm also thinking, if you move forward as some here suggest, be ready to go after Twitpic.com and every other Twit* variation to aggressively defend everywhere or lose steam on all fronts. Is that a good identity move? This is not a simple question to consider when everything is taken into account.
- Ken Camp
I'm of the opinion that twitter's initial success back in 2006 and 2007 was in part due to piggybacking on the brand name recognition that Leo had built over the years prior.
- Chris Heath
I think defending it is what you must do, but perhaps take a different look at it all together and suggest some kind of mutual PR blitz leading into a partnership or new brand identity for TWiT. Just don't call it SyFy!
- Aaron T. Harvey
The question here is would a "Reasonable person" confuse the two? I would like to think I am a reasonable person (even though I can't spell) and I would not be confused in the least. I love the Twit network and watch several hours a week, but I don't see the issue.
- Rob
I agree that since Leo has been a twitter evangelist all these years, they should be able to strike an accord somehow. Maybe even partnering up on the whole Twitter TV Show since Leo has the video presence online.
- Bryan Lee
You have to defend now, or 5 years from now you'll have a weaker case against the twitty podcast network.
- Robert Hafer
Rob, the question isn't whether or not you or I would confuse the two, but do the people who watch Oprah and maybe catch Leo on The Tech Guy confuse them...and they do.
- Aaron T. Harvey
Aaron...Do you really think they would. Am I that out of touch with the "Normal People"? If that is the case then I guess I would have to conseed that to be an issue. But I am still not quite convenced.
- Rob
Funny - I would enjoy the extra publicity - You have a loyal set of listeners - and none of us are confused. If people end up on your site -cause they are looking for twitter, maybe they will take a listen. People who are looking for podcasts on technology though i doubt will find twitter in a search.
- Laurence Gold
Rob, I've seen it happen, even with people "in the know". People think that TWiT is somehow connected with Twitter because of the name. It's a mistake that, while not happening with everyone--and maybe not even the majority--can end up costing Leo and co. money.
- Aaron T. Harvey
Protect what you worked hard to build
- Shawn Hickman
Had Apple been named "TWiT," you can be assured there would be no talk of a TwitterTV...
- Christopher A Carr
Of course you should perfect TWIT for media and tech. You have the prior art, use. It's an obvious move for Twitter to exploit their 'brand' into media. You must pursue Leo. You have been a crusader for fair-use, but there are times (like this example) where fairness requires accountability.
- michael sean wright
The commenter who noted that if you do not enforce your rights they may be weakened is generally correct. I suggest seeking an agreement that is mutually beneficial and recognizes your rights in the TWiT(R) trademark.
- erik pelton
The problem with defending your trademark is the public backlash it can generate. Think O'Reilly and Web 2.0 or Apple and Profit Pod. But in this case, if you are indeed convinced that there is some infringement of TWiT by Twitter, I think you'd be doing us all a favor if you could somehow head off their plans for a celebrity-stalking TV show.
- Dave
The problem is not really twitter, or a twitter video show, but all the people who says they just sent a twit. Also all the small companies with twit in their name, who are in the video/audio area. Twit radio, twitvid.io etc etc. I see no problem in protecting the brand. However it ends out you'll get a lot of publicity.
- Anton Tanderup
Leo, this could be an opportunity for you to come out ahead. Yes it's an awkward situation and yes you could fight this on legal grounds, but there's no win for you there. Here's a way for you to win. Today your brand is a split brand--split between "Leo LaPorte" and "TWIT." You can win by focusing more on building the Leo LaPorte part of the brand. "Leo LaPorte" doesn't equal TWIT, yr...
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- Michael Metz
man you gotta defend your name and trademark,whats next a twitter podcast network?
- cliff whitefoot
I think Ken Sheppardson sums it up nicely. I don't think you even need to retain a lawyer to start with the cease and desist letters, then see if they are amenable to a settlement, partnership or other remedy. It doesn't have to, and hopefully won't ever, come to a legal battle. However, it's clear enough that unless Leo hands them his mark and re-brands on his own dime, he must defend...
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- Richard pancakhaus Walker
Its funny... in a way you helped make twitter the juggernaut it is today.... all the free advertisement that you have given them over the years....LOL.. Maybe they should return the favor
- Nathan McClain
Hasn't Leo said he wants to add a second host to the network? Wouldn't it also confuse viewers if they were watching the Leo Laporte Network and the show was hosted by someone not named Leo?
- Norm Corriveau
Leo, some other people have made good points, if you're going after Twitter your also going to have to go after the other sites with Twit in the name: Twitpic, Twitpwr and Twiteverything or your case will be thrown out.
- DarknessFalls
DarknessFalls: he'd only have to do that if they all launched TV shows too.
- Martin Bryant
darknessfalls, you're not getting the scope. it's about leo's twit trademark on video and what twitter plans to do that's associated with it.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
If you haven't done so already, explore the Apple case, both the legal and business issues that Apple Corps encountered. And if you DON'T defend your trademark, what's Plan B? Remember that Twitter (or its future owners) may someday sue YOU.
- John E. Bredehoft
from fftogo
Leo, take your mark and make them all change names. Is this Ustream show even official Twitter? it looks pretty lame, like they just used the word, visual branding like twitter.com. http://www.ustream.tv/channel...
- rob friedman
Don't sue unless you can find a business case and a lawyer to take the case on contingency with enough potential gain that it all wouldn't have been a big waste of time for a couple hundred dollars. But I am not a lawyer (IANAL). In fact, the grown up thing for twitter to do would be to link to you with an explanation that they aren't you and visa versa.
- Eric Standlee
Defend yourself, Leo.
- Devin Baines
Defend your trademark. Why else would you have filed it in the first place?
- phil baumann
The best solution would be for Leo to produce the official Twitter show as part of the TWiT network.
- Martin Bryant
The brand is big because of Leo yes, but having the TWiT brand is important. There are shows on the network in which Leo is not in.
- Anton Tanderup
Whats the question? TWiT is yours Leo, you need to protect it, the TWiT Army is not only at your back but with 60% of new Twitter accounts not coming back, all you have to do is hold out and wait on it to fold anyways.
- Bush Williams
Anton, the band is TWiT - twit.tv? - TWiT netcast network... that is the brand...
- Chris Heath
It is totally unfair, but I want to see all of your focus and money going towards content, not legal actions. You will be endlessly sending out C&Ds or worse as long as Twitter is popular. That said, I do think you should squeeze some money out of Ev in order to cede the brand.
- invariant - farewell FF
Twitter offers more value to me than TWiT ever could. Sorry Leo, but this just seems like sour grapes.
- Shannon
Leo: You should do a This Week in Law on this btw.
- Anton Tanderup
Shannon - how much value you get from either brand is not what is at question here.
- Chris Heath
I'm not sure if this was already mentioned in the nearly 150 comments here, but Leo's link doesn't work. Here's a better link that I hope stays active: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin...
- Eric Geller
+1 to chris' comment.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
You have a "defend or lose" obligation under trademark law. The TWiT brand has significant value, both from a revenue perspective and and the potential cost of re-branding al your sites, moving twit.tv etc., if you lose it. Protect the mark that secures your brand. Oh yeah, on that whole "big guy" theme: Because of your stable business model vs Twitter's Twitter's evolving one, an...
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- David Lounsbury
Shannon, the post asks for advice on how to be the best caretaker of a network and its trademark - your assignment of personal value should guide your own choices, but is irrelevant to the question at hand. How can it be sour grapes if failing to act now _could_ result in losing the standing of a trademark/brand which preceded those of other players who _may_ be crossing the line to the point of infringement.
- Micah Wittman
TWiT offers more value to me than Twitter ever could. Sorry Shannon, but this just seems like sour grapes.
- invariant - farewell FF
What a conundrum. I can't speak much to any legal considerations. But, on an emotional level, I would imagine that not defending and potentially losing the name must feel like smiling politely as an immigration official pins you with a random Anglicized name because your real, "ethnic" name is confusing to the masses in the new world, and making a fuss is to gamble the welfare of your...
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- Micah Wittman
@Ken Camp: Isn't twitter also a common english word which can't be trademarked? EDIT: Or Windows, for that matter?
- invariant - farewell FF
invariant -- you mean like Apple?
- Brian Sullivan
word, err, I mean Microsoft Word
- Micah Wittman
I think your best brand is "Leo Leporte". TWiT is just where Leos at.
- Matthew Snape
So I think we've established that common English words can be trademarked. So what's the criteria? Has to be a noun?
- invariant - farewell FF
of related note, i realise that twitter is indirectly facilitating twit offshoots upon registration. this is how: registering anything with 'twitter' in the username is *banned*. so, for a user already having their heart set on using twitter as part of their 'brand' might think of using 'twit' instead. this opens up a new can of worms figuring out who is using the twit name and doing video. like how they are doing now with 'twiter', they can stop it at registration to avoid further confusion.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
I say defend it. If they are doing a TV show, they're definitely stepping on your toes. Nevermind that I can't imagine their show would be any good, but that's a different story... :)
- Jan Ole Peek
What about TwiTips? If that isn't entertainment then what is? But seriously I own several trademarks myself and I know if you don't take action then you could lose the Tmark. You have a conundrum because Twitter is so popular. So I would recommend seeking a compromise so that you won't lose your mark and appear like the bad guy with the public. Perhaps a clearer definition of the terms...
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- BLOGBloke
Other than I think he needs to see a surgeon to fix that lean to the left he has,... I love the guy and have been listening to him for about 15...16...dang probabaly close to 18 years about tech news I love the guy. And to top it off! He knows what he is talking about!! Leo makes am radio worth a listen on the weekends!
- John Apostoli
TWiT is a network providing audio and video broadcast covering issues related to the tech field. Twitter is a social network used to connect people using the basic SMS tools. While people *may* confuse the issue by referring to Twitter messages as "twits, there is no evidence that Twitter has used or endorsed the term. Unless & until Twitter (as a company) starts using the term "Twit"...
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- David J. Garcia
I've said this privately, but I guess I will say it publicly.Defend your mark. It is your livelihood. There WILL be confusion if it gets to TV, where people are not tech savvy and have no idea who you are
- Francine Hardaway
Yes, it may be expensive, and yes, these fights are draining, Dave, but until the laws are changed (an entirely different question), Leo could lose part of his livelihood through the confusion, especially since he has advertisers who would probably want him to defend. Everything in the universe doesn't happen in Silicon Valley:-)
- Francine Hardaway
David - until now that has been the case, but Twitter is planning on doing a TV show (which would definitely be infringement), which is why this debate is happening.
- imperator3733
I would certainly want you to defend it but i don't think its gonna be possible for two reasons. First Twitter is a bigger, more powerful and certainly more loved brand with more money. and you were first to infringe the unofficial agreement by hosting Twit Army. in that perspective you might not be able to defend it legally.besides the audience you've built ain't gonna be affected by what twitter does.So consult a legal advisor & take best course of action. Best of Luck
- Abhishek
I think if you approach it in good faith--initially without lawyers--you have a very good chance to work something out. Ev seems to be a very reasonable guy. Perhaps it's best to draft a strategy with counsel before any discussions though. What's really in your favor(perhaps legally, perhaps not) is that Twitter can't deny how your support and promotion for it was incendiary to the...
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- Gregg Scott
http://www.googlefight.net/... - ouch
- Nate
What's the point of a googlefight here Nate?
- Chris Heath
Sorry but the Google fight site is loaded with pop-ups that even show through popup blocker.
- Usman Bashir
Usman, I didn't get any popups (using chrome on winxp) but still it's a hideous site
- Chris Heath
Twitter has a lot of investment, but I'm not sure all of that is liquid money. You may be even in the money spent defending your Trademark. I say go for it. Do it now though if you do.
- Jesse Stay
Leo must Defend!
- Jim Mahon
If it was me, I'd defend it. While Twitter is still worth something! Talk to a lawyer first and see if you have a valid case.
- John Frazer
You must defend.
- Will Bostwick
I can't believe how long this thread has gotten!
- Bryan Lee
Seems like you are getting a lot of FREE promotion as a result of twitter. My bigger concern would be not having the twit.com URL to go with your brand name. That's a big issue!
- Craig Shipp
@Craig, twit.com was registered in 1997, and it's parked.
- rob friedman
Twit is your trademark for the company you have built up. It seems rather unfair that they would brand their idea so similar. I would defend it and all the hard work you have done.
- Matthew Davis
Defend it Leo. Things may get ugly, but sometimes they just gotta.
- David Chartier
from BuddyFeed
Fight for you trademark! Especially since they knew of your prior use and now they are doing a TV show which they should know is stepping on your trademark.
- russellcoleman
Defend, owning Twitter may not be useful for you yourself, but you could make a profit off of it if you were to sell it. Go for it Leo!
- Zachary TG
What Kyle said!!
- jcunwired
Leo, FriendFeed community, let's get practical here - Twitter has more resources and probably a decent case defending against what you could file. It would be a blow to your image, to TWiT's image, and be bad press overall. You have a far greater chance of losing credibility than gaining trademark protection. You need to look into other strategies.
- Ben Parr
There is no such thing as bad Press
- Jesse Stay
from email
I would thin kthat the thing to do is to gently but firmly convince them that they are infringing on your brand, that litigation would be damaging to both of you, losing community goodwill over the fight, and that it would be simpler, faster, and cheaper for both entities if they were to pay for your rebranding effort. Be prepared to present them with the estimated costs of litigation,...
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- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Defend your Trademark. It's the responsible thing to do as a buisness.
- Donald Forth
Defend your trademark
- Russ Jackson
what Kyle & guruvan said. Does anyone else think we need threaded comments for conversations like this right here?
- Richard pancakhaus Walker
I'd defend the TWiT trademark.
- Jonathan Bloom
I'm not as thunk as you drink I am
- David Lloyd
Also there is this guy who has a "beef" with twitter http://twitter.co.uk/
- rob friedman
@rob friedman - That guy says Twitter doesn't require you to validate your email address. Wow, that's ripe for abuse!
- invariant - farewell FF
Defend.
- Tony Meyer
Talk to a lawyer.
- Zian Choy
More than a hundred comments, the community is twitting even on friendfeed. A legal action would be very difficult. You should first define your objective in doing so. Do you really want to protect your brand or settle for a lucrative compensation? Even if you get some sort of legal protection limiting Twitter to use or endorse the word "twit" to some extent, people will still be...
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- Cem ARGUN
Cem: I'm afraid I don't understand that first sentence of yours. Can you explain?
- Christopher A Carr
It's only infringement if trademark string parser is case insensitive TWiT® != Twit®
- KyleHase
Prior art (and obligatory MP reference) http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- Jay Cuthrell
Maybe a dead issue? At least as far as the potential fight w/ Twitter, Inc. Mashable says Twitter responds no official Twitter TV show http://mashable.com/2009...
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
And now for something completely different... watch the meetup room if interested in seeing Spamalot in SF as a group...
- Richard pancakhaus Walker
I would say defend it. Of course, I'm just a Twit.tv fan and not a lawyer.
- Joey Gibson
'all this nonsense'?? wtf is that supposed to mean?
- Chris Heath
Just leave it alone until they manage to make some real money off it, then litigate. That's how it's done you know.
- Will Higgins™
Leo, I am a long time fan and constant listener to all of you work. You are a more than fair and wholly honorable man. You have had TWIT long before I ever heard of a twitter. Go with your heart Leo. I am behind you. I understand you would impede progress of any positive kind. But a cease and desist letter. Seems harsh. I think you have a winner. Let them buy the TM. Power to the people. Go Leo, you deserve it. You do only good. You are one of a kind! RodneO
- RODNEY OLIVER
PC Easy: I don't think Leo's making a big stink. The idea that twitter would get into the tv/video business would be a big thing since they have a verbal agreement with Leo not to get into that business. This may be all for nothing, since the mashable article guruvan linked above states that twitter will not be doing a show. Leo was doing the best first step (imho) in asking the community for guidance in the event that the original reporting was correct (which it does not appear to be now). So moot point
- Chris Heath
I think if I was you Leo I would try to license rights to them and get some mula out of it. Remember "Leo Laporte" goes a lot farther than TWIT does and most importantly ever will.
- Eric VM
there's a current backlash on twitter trending topics right now w/ hashtag #notwittertv. the examiner has an unfavorable article here: http://www.examiner.com/x-264-C... even alyssa milano is against it: http://twitter.com/Alyssa_...
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Its going to suck and bomb... guaranteed.
- Rustic Thoughts
Maybe just sell it to them Leo for a gazillion dollars and retire. Keep the leaches out of it..meaning the lawyers. What the heck, Leo you are great at trend setting, you practically put twitter on the map. They owe you something.for all the pub you have given them since their inception.
- John Apostoli
Defend. There's really no reasonable alternative.
- Jason Clarke
You gotta defend it Leo. What's the point of trademarking in the first place.
- Joel Lovato
You have to defend what is legally yours.
- Michael Hansel
Twitter Responds: There is No Official Twitter TV Show- Mashable (May 25th, 2009 | by Pete Cashmore) -- http://mashable.com/2009... -- There is no official Twitter TV show—although if there were it would be fun to cast! In dealing with networks and production companies we sometimes have simple agreements. Regarding the Reveille and Brillstein project reported today,...
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- Chris Loft
Leo, suggest you go "open source co-branding" on this. Monetize your "twit" brand through creative brand licensing with emerging entertainment and multimedia microblogging companies that want to ride the "twitter" bandwagon. I can see creative corporate and individual co-brands like, TwitSounds, TwitFilms, TwitMedia, TwitCats, TwitBitch, TwitMechanic, etc...
- Mike Schmidt
If I hear the word "monetize" one more time, my eardrums will begin bleeding. That is all.
- wyclif
I don't want to over simplify this but if Twitter do branch into video and even streaming TV, surely the content would have to be substantially different to what TWiT already provides, otherwise they are at risk of spoiling their brand identity. Stay strong and true to the Tech news content and let Twitter, well do what ever they may do. Personally, I think it would be a mistake for them to go down this road. Time may be better spent further improving the existing service.
- Kevin J Hatton
the mashable news is taken directly from the twitter blog: http://blog.twitter.com
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Maybe it's a good time to Re-Brand. Twit has unfortunate connotations in some areas of the English speaking world. On this side of the pond a twit is an idiot. Until I became aware of Leo I gave TWiT a very wide berth. Branded simply as This Week in Tech it would have got my positive attention a whole lot sooner. Time to move onward and upward.
- Gilbert Harding
This was copied and pasted but sums it up so well : Of course, there's a larger long-term problem because of the way that Twitter has weakened _your_ brand. It might be less expensive (and a better use of your time) to rebrand TWiT into something that strengthens your brand and moves it away from Twitter; avoiding any future problems (and there will be future problems). You can't fight Oprah. - Professor Messer
- Fragtastic
A very worthy point - "I think that once you see the Twitter television show, you'll probably want to distance yourself as far away as possible. - Professor Messer"
- Fragtastic
I'll admit to being a little slow on the uptake to both TWiT and twitter and it took me some time to figure out that they were different things. I was listening to TWiT before I found twitter, and at first I wondered if I was mixing the names up in my head. I think there is real potential for confusion between the two names. Good luck in whatever you decide to do, Leo.
- Rick Reynolds
You could ride the wave of popularity Twitter is experiencing by allowing that confusion to blossom. Perhaps more people could start listening and watching your netcasts *because* of that confusion?
- David Hepworth
You need to defend your brand, however since you know the guys at Twitter maybe you can come to some sort of agreement that is the best interest of both TWiT and Twitter.
- Jim Lavin
I say defend the brand. I fully believe Leo and TWiT will outlive Twitter. It would be a shame to surrender the brand only to see it disappear in 1-2 years.
- Martin Johnson
I think you should definitely defend it. Whatever it will be called, Twitter-TV will make a big splash and Twit, being less mainstream than Oprah, won't even make a dent. And if they want your trademark, they should pay for it.
- Vincent van Wylick
I say defend it, if you don't the that opens the door to other infringements.
- Hunter
since you clearly took your name from This Week in Baseball, which deputed in 1977, should MLB defend their trademark with you?
- glenn simmons
Defend it! definitely, the trademark is rightfully yours and you need to hold on to it...I like twitter, but I like TWiT even more...
- Raymond
Glenn, you are wrong. There are many registered trademarks that contain "this week in"
- russellcoleman
See what you have started Leo? Twitter TV is not a patch on what you do. Now if it was professionally done, with great audio then maybe,
- Kevin J Hatton
Dealing with a similar issue (though not as big as dealing with Twitter). I say throw out a warning shot to protect your brand. Worst case they ignore you and you have to spend gobs of money to defend it. Best case they make you a $$ offer.
- Brian Niles
from Nambu
russellcoleman, exactly so why is Leo crying about twitter
- glenn simmons
Glenn, because "Twit" is Leo's trademark in the area of entertainment in the nature of visual and audio performances, and musical, variety, news and comedy shows.
- russellcoleman
Defend it!
- Kiran Patchigolla
Sorry Leo, does that mean I can't call people Twitts? Does it mean no one in a television or audio show can use the word twitt? I mean Twitter...TWIT...they have 3 more letters and their brand is based on communication not entertainment. Give up the ghost against Twitter by now dude. IF they were doing what you were doing MAYBE but what you are saying is noone can use the letters T W I or T .... don't become the next Monster.
- Sidney
Defend. No retreat. No surrender.
- Barry Biddlecomb
from twhirl
Sidney, it means they can't use twit as part of their brand if they go into the areas Leo's trademark covers. We are talking about branding here.
- russellcoleman
Again, Twitter is a communication company looking to capitalize on providing television content the ability to have immediate interactive component...Nothing that TWIT does...so no infringement. Leo has always had the axe to grind with Twitter...if he was going to do something he should have done it immediately...
- Sidney
My understanding is that Twitter is going to have a TV show and that may infringe. My point above was to the suggestion that no one could say the word twit.
- russellcoleman
@Christopher Carr, I meant that twitting has become a generic expression going far beyond Twitter. Here on friendfeed we are twitting, an these lines are in fact twits... :)
- Cem ARGUN
As an anecdote, until now I thought TWiT was something twitter related, and I basically ignored it for that reason. I have learned over time that I'm often not a good representative of anything, but there was certainly brand confusion in my case.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: You're not alone. I thought TWiT was Twitter-related too :(
- Tech Introvert
At first, yep, I thought Twit spawned Twitter. But in a few nanoseconds, I knew otherwise. But in the mind of 'ordinary' (horrible term, sorry) user coming at Twit from Twitter surely they'll get the idea. But Twitter is SO pervasive, I'm glad that you've decided to take advice. I know nothing, but I feel you should protect your brand. Don't change your name. Change the game. On another tack, you checked out http://audioboo.fm ?
- John C Wesley Barker
"Again, Twitter is a communication company looking to capitalize on providing television content the ability to have immediate interactive component." - Sidney That is exactly what Leo's doing
- Anton Tanderup
news of twitter tv just hit the local abc news. they mentioned there's already direct opposition by celebrities ashton & demi who (according to their tweets) will quit twitter if this reality show sees the light of day (paraphrasing). this could mean -as they say & putting it lightly- 'my enemy's enemy is my friend?' odd yet amusing opposition from the hollywood. however, no mentions of twit and leo. :-\
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Twitter can look to capitalize on providing television content the ability to have immediate interactive component all they want. But I don't think they should do it in a way that can cause any confusion between them and Leo's network.
- russellcoleman
Sorry the only confusion people have had is what Leo has brought to the table himself. He should have stepped up long ago if he felt Twitter was going to create confusion and admittably it has and TWIT and Twitter don't even cross streams. I know for one if Leo wastes his money on litigation I for will be disappointed and believe it will harm the TWIT brand.
- Sidney
i know this thread is too long to read for many. re-quoting what leo said here for those who keep saying he should have stepped up long ago: "Ev told me that when they were considering names for Twitter they knew about TWiT and decided it didn't matter. In their defense, they had no idea what or how big Twitter was to become. We talked about trademark early on and both agreed there was no conflict _as long as we were in different spaces_. And therein lies the rub. - Leo Laporte"
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Very tough choice. I think these comments provide you with a fairly good sample of public opinion from people in tech, but it would be interesting to get input from the rest of the world on Twitter who have never heard of TWiT. It certainly won't cost much to send in a warning shot so they take notice and to demonstrate defense of your TM, but I would follow that up with a request to...
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- Phil Ashman
Give it up Leo ... You may win the battle ,, but you wont win the War IMHO ,, Unless you have deeper pockets than Twitter ... is your time/money worth fighting over it ? Only *you* can answer that!
- johnpiercy
This twitter thing is just a flash in the pan, you can wait them out ;-)
- Wolfman-K
If he fights and loses, at least he defended it, which is required to keep it. If Leo does nothing, he could lose it.
- Bwana ☠
How do people feel about Monster Cable suing companies that use the word Monster in their name? I feel the same here...except that Twitter just happens to have the same four LETTERS as Twit, as the beginning. They arent using Twit as a standalone word. C'mon.
- Andru Edwards
The only justification I can see in Leo going after Twitter is so that he can at least show he is defending his TM so he doesn't lose it as Bwana said...otherwise I think it is a losing game that will be a waste of resources that TWIT could utilize in other productive pursuits.
- Sidney
The Monster Cable example doesn't really work. They were suing companies that were in different spaces. Now with Twitter doing a TV show, that is in the same space as TWIT and Leo has the trademark for it.
- Mike Child
Everyone should read this: http://blog.twitter.com/2009... It has been linked a few times in this discussion up above, but bears linking again based on recent comments - From what I can tell, it doesn't look like twitter will have a tv show - so this whole point is moot - leo may have to defend his trademark against these 'other' shows if they use the word twit in their name, but i don't think they will
- Chris Heath
Leo -This is a battle that will be HELL. Yet, it is critical you fight it. I had a couple situations very much like it in telecommunications late '80s early '90s. I should have fought. Give them a run for their money. It will cost you $$ and resources. But, with Twitter's new direction - man - you're a journalist at heart... You already know - you've got to fight for your right!
- Arleen Anderson
Man this is a tough position to be in. Honestly, I can't see TWiT or Twitter changing brands/names. However, Leo, you were first and you have the trademark to back it up. I say defend it!
- Doug Jones
Biz responds to the Twitter TV show on the blog: http://blog.twitter.com/2009...
- Doug Jones
not reading the thread befire i comment... but seems to me that TWITTER does not equal TWIT. what else is their to know?
- sull
Leo, I think the law is very clear, if you don't defend your trademark you may lose it.
- David Angel
from twhirl
Leo a firestorm is brewing over twitter tv http://www.nydailynews.com/tech_gu...
- dday
Make them pay you a million in cold hard cash for the TWIT name and change your name to TWIG - This Week In Goodness :-)
- Richard Bitting
When you see such services as "TwitThat" (http://twitthat.com/), with that spelling of "tweet", there is an incredible amount of confusion waiting to happen !
- arnaudt
arnaudt, good point. and again... TWiT does NOT = twitter - so leo has no case. twitter themselves dont use 'twit' in any way. they barely if at all use 'tweet' in any way. they began as 'twtr' in like 2006. twitter is NOT an abbreviation for anything as TWiT is. twitter is not solely behind producing an entertainment property.. they are granting rights to others to do so and in some...
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- sull
sull, TWIT does NOT have to = twitter for Leo to have a case. People just have to be confused enough to adversely impact, or even potentially impact, Leo's business.
- Chris Gardner
Chris, i think it does for him to have a 'good' case. You cannot prevent Twitter from letting media entities use twitter as part or their 'shows', even if twitter as some levell of partnership. In the end, it will cost Leo money to lose a trademark case. Proving, for example, that an MTV show tentatively named 'what you're watching' that uses twitter and facebook etc as fundemental components for audience interaction has any negative effect to the TWiT podcast.
- sull
sull, there just needs to be a likelihood of confusion. The Court there announced eight specific elements to measure likelihood of confusion: Strength of the mark - Proximity of the goods - Similarity of the marks - Evidence of actual confusion - Marketing channels used - Type of goods and the degree of care likely to be exercised by the purchaser - Defendant's intent in selecting the mark - Likelihood of expansion of the product lines
- Chris Gardner
Oh, and TWiT is not just a podcast. It is a live streaming net video network. There are on and off talks to take to cable also.
- Chris Gardner
Chris, thanks for pointing those elements of liklihood. Still, i think that even for the case to have a leg to stand on, twitter would need to have a 'show' specifically named in a way that may cause confusion. That has not happened. Trying to prevent the word 'twitter' from being used at all in marketing and branding via "visual and audio performances" because of the TWiT trademark seems a stretch and will prob result in negative publicity for Leo. Anyway, maybe we'll see. Interesting.
- sull
sull, agreed interesting. Also, this will probably not go anywhere near the courts. Ev Williams and Leo know each other and get along (not many in the industry that Leo does not get along with). They will work things out.
- Chris Gardner
For those who are unaware, people have to take action to protect their brands otherwise they lose their trademark. My suggestions and observations: 1. Look for win-win 2. It all seems moot anyway http://blog.twitter.com/2009... tho this is a fascinating thread 3. If twitter did ever go ahead with this it would be a fairly simple compromise for them to...
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- Isha (Marysia)
You need to defend it. I don't know that you'll stop twitter from launching their show but you have to fight it to keep your trademark valid. You for sure need to go after twitvid.com and twitvideo.com!
- The Griff
Defend the trademark. It could make the difference on winning a future trademark case with another company.
- David Ebaugh
Defend it. It was your long before Twitter was even around. Like someone else said what is the point of calling your network that if as soon as a bigger fish comes along you cave. Don't give in to the man Leo!
- Mr. Thomas
Leo. I am not a lawyer and don't play one on the Internet. It sounds like you have no real case against Twitter, but the producers of the rumored tv show are a different story. Even then, it depends on what they are doing with the subject matter. Is it *about* Twitter, or simply about people who use Twitter? Will they ever use the term, "twit" in the show? It certainly couldn't hurt to...
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- Jake Overton
While this is getting a lot of buzz now, it didn't even occur to me till it was posted. I think both have built their brands, both have similar sounding names but are different. Isn't TWiT an acronym? I would be more concerned with TWiB (This week in Baseball) going after Leo if he goes on TV as his show title is clearly a play on theirs, and not Leo being concerned about Twitter... ;) Either way Leo, you got some free publicity for your program/site out of this.
- mike wood
Let's not forget that use of anything in an editorial context is considered fair use.
- Ryan Brodkin
I also feel that you have an opportunity for even more publicity if you can work the TWiT shows into the TV show, joining them rather than fighting them. You will get publicity either way, but there seems to be a high road and a low road (or perception thereof). Good luck and keep up the great shows.
- Jake Overton
Leo fight them.
- johnny
we neec to fight for TWIT
- Richard Thomson
So far I don't think there is a conflict with Twitter, unless there is a Twitter TV show. Although you should fight sites like http://twitvid.io . Plus if you win, you could have an awesome domain for video downloads when you want to offer them.
- Mister IQ
Apparently there's a popular twitter client app in Japan called "Twit" http://wakoopa.com/softwar... It's the first "twit" result on Google Japan and Yahoo Japan.
- KyleHase
@greggscott But I think it'll come back away.. I think the truth of it.. the core of it is what sustained twitter.. bullshit falls away..
Maybe it's what radio did originally--drawing famous names and known writers and columnists from print to invigorate the new medium. My fear is that both parties assume that the legacy media commodity of fame is seamlessly transferrable or even has the same value in the channel.
- Gregg Scott
Measure the number of Google search results between two keywords.
- Gregg Scott
How addicted are you to the web? - http://thenextweb.com/2009...
I've seriously considered the ceiling harness over the bed rig. I am addicted to the web.
- Gregg Scott
bought this today...anyone else read it? - http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2009...
Darren Heydon, Haggis (Sean Loyless), Eric @ CSTechcast.com and 3 other people liked this
Oh I didn't but, what is it about?
- Alp
There's a VERY happy ending. (Sorry. That was corny.)
- Brad Williamson
It's cooking book? With recipes that use lots of peas?
- Matthew DeVries
"This casserole has huge__________!"
- Matthew DeVries
Some of these threads, just baffle me at the lack of traffic, I mean who wouldn't come from the world around to behold Zee's _____________?
- Matthew DeVries
i think its just that most people aren't quite as immature as we are :)
- Zee.
No, but I'm consulting.
- Derrick
It's orange.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
Hey, you found my book! I was writing under a pseudonym back then.
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
I'll wait for the movie.
- Gregg Scott
And you thought the Vatican was bent over the Da Vinci Load
- Matthew DeVries
Like Google, Only Much, Much Worse. Wolfram Alpha is yet another pretender to the search giant's throne. - http://www.slate.com/id...
Vesna Gerintes, Darren Heydon, Yaroslav Nikolaev and 91 other people liked this
"Wolfram has discouraged comparisons between his new site and Google, insisting each serves different purposes. But that doesn't make any sense; you'll use both sites to look up stuff you don't know, so it's irresistible to compare the two. On a side-by-side test, Google wipes the floor with Wolfram Alpha. Using the search engine, I found life expectancy information for California and Kansas, the murder rate in South Africa and Baltimore, M.I.A.'s album sales, economic data for San Francisco, and the top speed of a Veyron: 253 mph. When you ask Google how many calories you'd burn on various sports, you find this page on NutriStrategy.com, which lists caloric measures for all those activities and dozens more, including playing drums, horse grooming, and raking the lawn. That example illustrates the difficulty Wolfram faces in trying to match Google. Much of the data that we look for online aren't found in formal, structured tables like the CIA Factbook. Even Wikipedia misses mountains...
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- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
When I met with Microsoft's search team a couple weeks ago, they said most of tech media covers search engines "wrong". So I have held off on giving this a full spin, but I've been quite underwhelmed with the tests so far. Why should it be so difficult to determine what is the right kind of query and the wrong kind? Why should I feel like it's user error when the product doesn't easily define what it is supposed to do?
- Louis Gray
I disagree, I think this is a great tool for research-based searches but not so great for trying to find a specific item
- mjc
It still doesn't seem like a search engine to me. And it's actually hard to define what is and, specially, how to use it.
- Arnaldo M Pereira
@Michael, inspecific research is almost an oxymoron
- Irrational homeophobe
Yes but can google divide the amount of calories burnt playing drums by the weight of a slinky and provide the output in joules per slug-fortnight?
- Mitch
"That example illustrates the difficulty Wolfram faces in trying to match Google" --- a complete straw man, disingenuous and foreshadowed by the opening commentary. Who said Wolfram was trying to match, or even play in the same game as, Google?
- Isaac Hepworth
His test queries were very similar to the Wolfram demo queries though. I ran into the same thing -- it seemed like a cool idea, but I couldn't get it to actually give me any interesting answers even though I tried to construct problems that it should be good at.
- Paul Buchheit
The most succinct response to this question that I've heard comes from Tim O'Reilly: "Why are you asking Wolfram Alpha questions that would be answered by a search engine. Kind of like using excel as a word processor" (http://twitter.com/timorei...)
- DeWitt Clinton
@Alex, I didn't say nonspecific research. what I meant was if you are looking for a specific piece of content, wolfram alpha doesn't have a big enough index yet. if you are however looking for data on a subject that doesn't have to be from a specific piece of content (eg, plotting/solving equations, data about persons or trends...) then you will likely do very well with alpha. it's of course not as mature as google yet though. don't knock it until you've used it for a math course!
- mjc
@DeWitt++
- Isaac Hepworth
DeWitt, I agree with the idea of it being something else, and like the concept, but it just doesn't work very well for me. Have you actually gotten anything useful out of it? (not using a suggested search, but one you thought of yourself)
- Paul Buchheit
Criticism is easy. Innovation is hard.
- Gregg Scott
I wouldn't think of Alpha as a search engine any more than I would consider Wikipedia to be one.
- Gabe
wolfram alpha is much closer to public semantic data and querying platforms such as freebase than to search engines like google
- Mike Chelen
Gabe: further innovation exists in mathematic queries and comparison to wikipedia is apt because of integrated data set
- Mike Chelen
Paul, try searches that take disparate pieces of data and compute an answer, e.g. http://www91.wolframalpha.com/input... (or try population of USA/population of India)
- Deepak Singh
You need to use your imagination a little bit to grasp that the comparison of life expectancies in all US states, or all countries in the world, is really within the reach of Wolfram|Alpha, even if "it doesn't know, *just now*, what to do with your input", when you ask it about these things. Same remark about homicide rates. Sure, those may not be easy numbers to get at for some...
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- François Dongier
Paul: practical usage similar to online spreadsheets, for calculation of frequent tasks such as finding equations by regression http://bit.ly/18FZD7
- Mike Chelen
I get the concept Deepak, but was that an actual query for something you wanted to know, or a demo of Wolfram? My question remains, has anyone actually used it to answer an actual question they had? When I tried (something about the mass of oxygen in a 20cm sphere), it didn't answer. I go to go to Google for answers. I go to Wikipedia for answers. I could go to Wolfram for answers. In that sense, they all compete.
- Paul Buchheit
@Paul -- in response to have I gotten something useful out of it? -- no, nothing other than a contrived query for weather data (http://www16.wolframalpha.com/input...) that I heard would work well (it did). But I don't see that as a failing of Alpha. I don't use Excel much either, and never Mathematica. But I do know what they're good for, and if I ever needed a spreadsheet or a computational software I'd know where to turn. I'm fine with Alpha being designed for a specific need.
- DeWitt Clinton
Google (and Wikipedia of course) were in a much less advanced state than Alpha when they launched.
- François Dongier
I agree that it could be very useful as "Mathematica on the web", but the demo video and other hype made it out to be much more. Hopefully it will get better though -- I do like the concept of what they are trying to do.
- Paul Buchheit
Forget the hype, think for yourself. Alpha is Mathematica 7, 8, 9 on the web.
- François Dongier
I think the underlying thread in this thread, as it were, is that we want to believe in something innovative and new, but we are frustrated as to how we are expected to modify our behavior to work around its limitations (intended or otherwise).
- Louis Gray
It's qlpha, right? Let it go through beta and then full release--and then if it doesn't execute mathematical computations go ahead and dismiss it.
- Gregg Scott
So you're waiting for WolframBeta Gregg? :)
- Paul Buchheit
Yes! Gmail is still in beta after 5 years. I don't think it was intended for widespread use by non-academics anyway. It's machinery is for researchers, mathematicians and scientists. We should always support the innovators. Remember those black and white Apple ads?
- Gregg Scott
Raise your hand if you use Google or Yahoo to search the web. Keep your hand up if you think Alpha is overrated. Now put your hand down if you *don't* use Mathematica or NumPy or Maple or Matlab on a regular basis. How many hands are still in the air?
- DeWitt Clinton
Gregg, do you think the media coverage was an accident, and that they only intended for academics to use it?
- Paul Buchheit
When Alpha (or Beta) will incorporate some simple logical reasoning ability, its applicability and overall usefulness will explode.
- François Dongier
Paul. I don't know about their media strategy. I do know that tech journalism loves a new story so they may have inflated expectations by misunderstanding it's application. Or that could've been WA's marketing mistake. I heard Leo's interview with Paul Wolfram and I didn't get that he believes this is an app for the masses at all.
- Gregg Scott
Leo's interview was excellent: go 2/3 towards the end of http://www.podtrac.com/pts...
- François Dongier
Paul, WA may be guilty of inhabiting that bubble that all of us who love new technology inhabit by thinking that all the world is just like ourselves. It's a niche but potentially very powerful application. I think over time it will become more non-academic friendly. I could be totally wrong. Of course.
- Gregg Scott
It didn't help that Doug Lenat gave a ringing endorsement. :)
- Ray Cromwell
Comparing Google to WA is like comparing a cell phone to a graphing calculator.
- Gregg Scott
Search engines always have this problem where you don't know their domain coverage exactly. If you don't like the results, are you asking the question wrong, or does it not have the answer? Even Google has this problem, but when you can't tell who has what, you end up always using the search engine with the broadest coverage -- which is Google right now.
- ⓞnor
What I would like from WA is a nice hierarchical directory of all the data they have broken down by subject area. Their directory of examples is close, but isn't quite authoritative enough. That way I could really get my head around what they have. A well-curated set of general data banks with a good calculation engine on top seems like it could be really useful, especially if they make it possible for the community to participate in the data curation process. But it's not a search engine.
- ⓞnor
The thing which seems to be missed by a lot of people is that Google has a pretty decent "computation engine" right now. See, for a useless example http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub... vs http://www30.wolframalpha.com/input... Obviously Google isn't exposing many entities ("facts") to it now, but the possibilities are pretty clear (See Google Squared...)
- Nick Lothian
Wolfram|Alpha reviews seem to be a very interesting litmus test... there are those that grok the concept who may be disappointed by what it delivers - in this very early incarnation - but they don't write off the ideal. Those that don't grok it end up comparing the service directly to the Google in one way or another (often while proclaiming that they aren't) and write off the company...
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- David HC Soul
I think the underlying thread in this thread, as it were, is that we want to believe in something innovative and new, but we are frustrated as to how we are expected to modify our behavior to work around its limitations (intended or otherwise). - Louis Gray -- Think so too. I tried lots of things for kicks and was unable to get to anything really interesting, I had to look elsewhere for...
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- ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,
Pretty good for crosswords though ;p http://www22.wolframalpha.com/input...
- ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,
I agree with François. It is just "Mathematica on the web". And only this "mathimatica" part of the system works well. Other parts are data integration/inference and NLP they both are unsolved problems now. Wolfram|Alpha does not propose any new solution to these problems. It uses state-of-the-art methods and as result it does not work.
- Maxim Grinev
Nor: http://reference.wolfram.com/mathema... gives a good idea of the currently available datasets. Clearly incomplete. The interesting question is whether making it complete enough to be useful is or not realistic.
- François Dongier
From what's new in Mathematica-7: http://reference.wolfram.com/mathema... , the fun exercise is to imagine what new computable datasets will be included in future versions. Things could go very fast if the community contributes.
- François Dongier
Most of my searches,questions and answers are on Twitter and FriendFeed based on my trusted friends(experts).Main trend.
- Igor Poltavskiy
The data representation is great but the problem is that Wolfram expects the user to learn about it instead of it trying to learn about the user
- Kiran Patchigolla
I see Wolfram Alpha more as a competitor to Wikipedia than Google. The media are the ones who are pitching Wolfram Alpha as a Google competitor, yet they are the same ones that are saying that it can't compete... crazy.
- Stuart Maxwell
I hope the arrival of Wolfram Alpha will make Google start asking themselves the question "are we infallible." And I wouldn't be surprised if, in the near future, Google would begin paying more attention to how it presents what it emits. WA's one big and DISTINCTIVE advantage over typical search engine's output, is that it attempts to enhance and embellish the flow in graphically-palatable chunks (even though they've gotten few things wrong, and abuse small type in graphics-tables far too much).
- ianf ⌘
Has anyone tried searching for "swine flu"
- Peter Stuifzand
It is not "a great tool for research-based searches" even because it does not provide references to the sources where the answer was taken
- Maria Grineva
Wolfram Alpha is a good first attempt at building a computational knowledge engine, but it needs to massively expand its database to become useful and appealing for most people. It is still a demo, a tantalizing taste of things to come, not a fully realized product. At a minimum, it needs to convert all the facts in Wikipedia into a computational format.
- Sean McBride
"Maria - it does not provide references to the sources", yes it does, clik "source information"
- Anders
Sean: Wikipedia data could easily be imported through DBpedia right? Haven't heard much about how to bring data from the RDF web (LOD) into Alpha, but that should be relatively easy. The hard part is what to do with it, as long as Alpha doesn't do logical reasoning. Maybe the best way of merging the two would be to extract RDF from the web of data through a SPARQL query, send the data to Alpha's API and have it return some useful interpretation of that data.
- François Dongier
Compare Google and Wolfram Alpha for searches on the population of Pakistan: 1. search[Google; pakistan population http://www.google.com/#q=paki...] 2. search[Wolfram Alpha; pakistan population http://www46.wolframalpha.com/input...] The Wolfram result is more elegant and directly informative -- but takes quite a long time to produce.
- Sean McBride
Compare searches on GOOG YHOO: 1. search[Wolfram Alpha; goog yhoo http://www46.wolframalpha.com/input...] 2. search[Google; goog yhoo http://www.google.com/#q=goog...] The WA search results are clearly superior.
- Sean McBride
I like the concept, but I see two major flaws that need to be addressed. The first is probably easy: You can't, afaict, compare two disparate data sets over time (can you get it to give you a graph of russian gdp vs crude oil price?). The second is that they're asking for "curators" to help shepherd new data sets, but they don't seem to make them publicly available in raw form. I'm not going to volunteer to maintain their private database.
- Joel Webber
Sean: Actually I don't really mind Alpha taking a long time to produce its answer, I even seem to enjoy it... Feels like watching the machine thinking, trying to guess what sort of calculation and graphs it will come up with :-)
- François Dongier
I'm curious how long it would take google to approximate pi to a million decimal places... Mathematica 6 did it on my x2 3800+ w/ 2gb ram in about 8 seconds. Alas, 2gb of ram was not enough to approximate it to a billion decimal places :(
- LarchOye
I think that Farhad Manjoo just wanted to create buzz with this header. It's no sense to compare Google and Wolfram|Aplha. Its like comparing Word and Corel. They can do some same things, but would you use Word to create a graphic? Would you use Corel to write long text? I would use Google to see what food is good for me, and I would use WA to calculate a sum of its calories. If WA weren't any good, Google would not be showing us some of its not-working search experiments lately.
- Pablo Yamamoto
Thanks for that rational comment, Pablo.
- Christopher A Carr
Pablo summed it up pretty well. Besides WA just launched a couple of days ago and as the users themselves its still in a learning phase. I just wish i had an iphone + WA back in school during all my horrible maths exams lol
- Pretty Monkey Studio
@LarchOye: 0.34 seconds: http://www.google.com.au/search...
- Nick Lothian
I'm not listening to anyone's take on Alpha who isn't a Mathematica user. The rest of you tech journalists can go find something else to hype.
- Mr. Gunn
FD: the problem with WA often taking so long to fully display its results: I'll wager that many users move on to another web page without realizing that they've seen only partial results.
- Sean McBride
If WA still processes results "behind the window" after first showing them to the user without indicating it explicitly, then this is clearly a design error.
- ianf ⌘
hmm... do you always stop thinking after answering a question?
- François Dongier
at least they don't have the deletionist cabal ruining it for everyone.
- Jon
cuil, anyone?
- dario
No, François, but I look extra pensive to indicate more may be coming. Anyway, comparing lifeless computer output to a human answer is taking anthropomorphizing one step too far.
- ianf ⌘
ianf: was joking :)
- François Dongier
Thx, reading this article an thread give me some insights of the usefulness and reach of this tool
- Luis Enrique León
Convention is scary-powerful. We're so used to putting our strings of text into a box and clicking Search that we assume everything with a box and a go button are Google. WolframAlpha seems to be a different beast entirely, and I don't envy the creator(s) in trying to describe what it does. That's not to say it'll catch on if it fails to answer questions, because I believe the majority of people are too lazy to tailor what they ask, to the style that suits the oracle.
- Rick Cogley
Stephen Wolfram himself put it best, I think, in his interview with Leo the other day. He said basically that it's going to take some time for people to get used to the kinds of questions that WolframAlpha is going to be good at answering. And I have to add to that, over time the people on that project will discover and add new data sources to the engine, and come up with new techniques...
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- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
That said, I thought this was a poor article, written by someone who really didn't try to understand the project. "Wolfram has discouraged comparisons between his new site and Google, insisting each serves different purposes. But that doesn't make any sense; you'll use both sites to look up stuff you don't know, so it's irresistible to compare the two" Wrong. It's just irresistible to...
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- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Wrong.
- Chris Spizzirri
We noted your cute one-liner, Chris.
- ianf ⌘
Rob: I agree with your conclusion (poor article). The structure of the argument is this: 1. Alpha is an answering engine, not a search engine. 2. Alpha does not answer most of our questions (although answers are on the web). Therefore: Alpha is not a good search engine.
- François Dongier
I'm compiling some queries that work or don't, either way. Please add a couple if you experiment with WolframAlpha. http://friendfeed.com/rickcog...
- Rick Cogley
I agree with Pablo, besides its good to see inventive new services, I will try to get benefit of it instead of comparing to Google. Like I was doing to Google when using Altavista.
- Jacque
I like the new service. I can compute my motgage very easily with it.
- Derek Wei
There is one thing wrong with WA: I dont want to be trained to use a search engine.
- Burcu Dogan
But you've already been trained by your experience to know how to ask Google a question, and get the answers you seek. Why should a different tool be any different? For that matter, don't you need training to use any kind of tool? (even self-training)
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Excited to go to the american idol finale taping tomorrow!
Disney By The Numbers and Andrew liked this
Justine. It pains me to hear you gush about such tripe. What happened to the geek girl from Pittsburgh?
- Gregg Scott
Taping? Isn't the show live?
- Peter Kruit
lunchtime sessions suggest that future business models should not include making money. Pass the bong. #futuresummit
ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0, and Gregg Scott liked this
I 'Liked' this because it sounds like utter nonsense!
- Gregg Scott
William Gibson reading Neuromancer. http://www.bearcave.com/bookrev...
I own this. No. Gibson can write, but he can't read aloud. "New levels of boredom for $500, Alex."
- xero
I think I'd prefer Glenn Danzig reading Neuromancer over William Gibson.
- Rob Haas
Yea, Gibson is a little painful.
- Steve Spalding
I've had lunch with Gibson a couple of times. It's always mind-expanding. He is the most intelligent person I have ever spoken with. And a very nice man. Is this name-dropping?
- Gregg Scott
A bit. Ha. he's a fantastic writer he might do well with a reader for his books though.
- Steve Spalding
Nice Gregg, and yeah, it is ;p I've loved every little interview and speech he's given, but listening to him read Neuromancer is just painful. I'll read anything he writes, so long as I'm not forced to listen to that audiobook again. It's my favorite book, but still...
- xero
I think he could be very good with some direction and some production values. He'd probably be the first to concur with the gist of your assessment.
- Gregg Scott
Good news: Twitter says it'll make money by selling tools to businesses, NOT advertising: http://www.reuters.com/article...
Jacq Soong, Rene de Vries, B2B Specialist and 10 other people liked this
This sentence spoken by Biz is troubling; "There are no people at Twitter who know anything about advertising...".
- Gregg Scott
The Adium beta makes an interesting Twitter client. IMHO IM is the right interface for all this stuff: IRC, Friendfeed, Twitter, and IM, too
Ryan Speed, Sam Harrelson, Scott Kellum and 10 other people liked this
I agree, simple and easy way to stay connected.
- Hunter
Hmmm...sounds interesting. How do you get new Tweets on your Home...as IMs? Trillian Astra tries to do something similar on Windows.
- Manuel Mas
I spent most of the day tweaking mine and wound up with this - http://bit.ly/cJRQe
- Adam Turetzky
Even though I don't use it, Gotta like any software that give you a MD5 checksum
- Jeff Stonebraker
While I certainly agree that IM is the interface, IMHO, the implementations leaves a lot to be desired. Loading all the contacts on Adium is a painstaking process, not to mention an extensive list. Don't get me wrong, I love Adium and use it as my only IM client, but Tweetie still makes using twitter a piece of cake. =)
- Guru Panguji
But, then again, if you remove the contacts appearing on your contact list, it works like a charm :)
- Guru Panguji
@Guru I left the "show contacts" for Twitter and Identi.ca off. 300+ people in the contact list was useless. There's a feature in the new "group chat" type windows where you can "show participants" that will list just the accounts of the people who have tweeted in your stream. I'm guessing this is more to facilitate IRC chat users lists, but in Twitter timelines, it's kind of like an "active users" list. I haven't utilized it yet, but it might be interesting to some.
- Adam Turetzky
"Show Contacts" almost killed me - I follow 13,000 people on my @twitlive account. Turned it off and turned up updates and Adium works quite nicely with Twitter. Not quite as useful with Friendfeed, though.
- Leo Laporte
wow, 13,000 in the contacts list would be kinda useless LOL. I only had 300+ and was like this is silly. So turned that off. I'm using it with FriendFeed via their new IM notifications thing. Does nothing for discovery of new stuff but keeps tabs on stuff you've liked or commented on without going back to the site. For find new stuff I use an SSB instance from Fluid.app for FriendFeed. All in all, I luv my computer and technology. :)
- Adam Turetzky
from IM
loving it. using irc and twitter on it right now
- Gurnam Bedi
Gurnam, how is the IRC? I usually use Colloquy.
- joey
I have been using colloquy for years so I am missing it a bit, especially because I haven't figured out how to get growl or adium to notify/highlight when my keywords are mentioned (like my name, etc). The big thing I am liking right now is the fact that there is one less app to keep running. Another thing I want to test is to configure it to store the logs in my dropbox so that I can seamlessly switch between my macbooks and not have disjointed chat logs :)
- Gurnam Bedi
Btw Leo, offtopic but just stumbled upon a facebook url which pings if its prod webserver is up: http://www.facebook.com/status...
- Gurnam Bedi
Thanks, Gurnam. I'll give it a try.
- joey
Six months ago I'd have agreed IM is the right interface, but these days I'm thinking what we really need is a new class of client app that's part feed reader, part IM client, and part email. The FriendFeed web UI itself is close, but I'd still like the ability to have some substreams handled as queues, with read/unread status like email; the ability to read full articles like Google Reader; and the ability to have more granular, direct conversations like IM.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: I'd buy that. I've pulled a lot of RSS into friendfeed but there are some sites where I'd like to know if I missed something (via read/unread status).
- invariant - farewell FF
Ken: I would have to agree with you. Something that could more or less adapt to exactly what you needed at that moment. In other words if you just were conversing back and forth it would function more like IM, however if you wanted to read full articles it would expand to do that without having to take you completely out of the program, I mean flock kind of does this already although I think flock is just the beginning of what it could ultimately be.
- Nathan McClain
We sorta seem stuck on this idea that there should be a direct protocol-to-client mapping. People talk about RSS clients, XMPP/AIM clients, email (SMTP) clients... I just want a messaging client.
- Ken Sheppardson
I really like Adium, in the limited amount I've played on it. Haven't tried Twitter yet. I REALLY wish it included Skype, though.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
I still use MoodBlast. Adium, Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr and Skype. And Facebook. And iChat. http://blog.circlesixdesign.com/downloa...
- Gregg Scott
Digsby should launch the mac version asap
- Gurnam Bedi
FF doesn't work in IM. By that I mean we don't get enough information to know whether the post is interesting or not.
- Richard A.
ok, hate me, but twitter's (@)reply update does fix the half visible/busted conversations - makes my stream cleaner (for me)
Gavin, James Schipper, Peggy Dolane and 34 other people liked this
It's not an update. It was an option in your settings. Now it's not an option. That's the issue. #fixreplies
- Marina Martin
kind of funny that even kevin doesn't know the little details of something as 'big' as twitter... *shrugs*
- Chris Heath
+1 for Marina's comment
- Elian Chrebor
Ok, ++hate. No idea why, saw it on ff, must follow! Scoble says so!
- Darryl Adams
from Nambu
I'd rather you just get a filter, personally :)
- Jason Nunnelley
They could have just changed the default on the setting and make it an opt-out thing.... why remove the option?
- Mark Jenniskens
In Soviet Twitter you have no switch off for feature. Feature switches off you.
- Jason Nunnelley
Mark, the user option, when it was accessible, always was opt-in (ie. defaulted to hide replies to non-follows). So "why remove the option?" is doubly good question.
- Micah Wittman
Mark: Micah is right, the default was and is the current setting, but now there's no option to have it the other way.
- Chris Heath
I don't want to hate you - but since you asked me to...
- shira
But you've always had the option to turn those off. The larger problem here is that Twitter removed this option altogether. We no longer have the choice. In a recent blog post, it also finally explained that this was partly an engineering decision, and that an alternative may arrive soon.
- David Chartier
from BuddyFeed
So make opt-in for those who want it
- David Alfaro
from twhirl
For people who only follow a few, but have a ton of followers, I'm sure it's fantasitc. For those of us that really enjoy the social aspect of social networks, it's a bag of sticks and stems.
- Mike Lewis
hard 2 hate u, but I gotta disagree on this 1. I'm afraid twitter changes will kill discovery. I like my random twitter cmnty.
- sukhjit
For established users content with their existing network turning off @ replies to people I don't follow quiets the noise. As a new user building a network, seeing who other people I followed were conversing with has been invaluable. You're hardly the average user. I don't hate you. Not for this comment anyway! j/k
- Gregg Scott
for a geek, you more or less miss the boat. You HAD the option all along. why advocate to take my options away? geez.
- Karoli
I wanted the option. I hear what you're saying, but that's not how I roll. Why take away the option?
- phil baumann
I don't hate you either. but all these twitter users sure do--and more every hour. Why would you force your way of using Twitter on them? They don't all have enormous followers they never read, as you do. They rely on the social graph that you're advocating that twitter now remove. 95% of the value I have gotten from Twitter came from discovery of people my follows knew. It's simply a bizarre recommendation. What's wrong with an option? http://search.twitter.com/search...
- Shoq
Its not about hating you, for a group of people who fancy themselves pioneers of community, you would think that would equate to a basic understanding of the functions of said communities. What you have shown is that its really a tool for you guys, and your friends to keep tabs on all 45 replies you want to see, and hang the rest - at least be honest about that. People other than Ashton Kutcher made this space what it is. Its called social media for a reason.
- Bailey McCann
@Bailey McCann +10 on community comments. applause.
- Karoli
Bailey +10000 You hit the nail on the head. I just wish I could have said that better myself :P
- Mike Lewis
Yeah you could have turned it off a long time ago to clean up your stream Kevin. Now it's not a choice. :( #fixreplies
- Wolfman-K
Bailey, bada bing +1000. That is precisely how most feel. What is all the more galling is that there is this pretense that this came from "users." Twaddle. Who did they ask, besides Kevin? @theEllenShow? @aplusk? @the_real_shaq? I have yet to discuss this with a single "real" user who likes it, wants it, agrees with it, or finds it to be anything but a consummate expression of near-Zuckermanesque hubris.
- Shoq
NPR's story on this:. http://www.npr.org/blogs...
- Shoq
of course kevin rose likes it zzz
- Ryan Underdown
I think it's Twitters way of dealing with the growth in traffic. By reducing features like this, it starts to reduce some of the burden on the overall system. I assume that you can still use search in Tweetdeck etc to see everything about whatever you're into and discover people that way.
- Michael Jones
Consider only being able to see Digg stories that our friends had contributed to as that would remove similar discovery
- Joe Dawson
#fixreplies: Oh, poor, poor Kevin Rose, you with your "overwhelming" Twitter stream following all of 169 people. God forbid it should be muddied by "undesirable" @ replies from them to the unwashed masses.. this is the same tone-deafness that Twitter showed in their original announcement, calling this massive change "A small settings update" & getting all Orwellian: "..removes this undesirable & confusing option." What, did they take Fail PR lessons from Zuckerberg?
- Alex Schleber
Was that an Update? :s
- Sardar Mohkim Khan
Would someone please explain this whole (@)reply update change to me?
- dren
OK, I got it nevermind. XD
- dren
Your point is well-made, however. I sometimes like to interject into conversations and can sometimes discover new people that way, but A LOT of the time I get pieces and fragments, particularly after 6pm & on weekends. You get comments back and forth like "thanks, man" with reply, "you rock, too" which add no value, and pollute an individual stream
- Tonks
Liking this thread for the comments.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
OPTIONS. well hinted, visible personal options to customize one's account is always the best solution .. possibly also, do the polls/collabo conferences before, just to see how people/users would be interested in co-designing their product.
- Petr Buben
Reading people's thoughts on the replies issue. We're considering alternatives. Thanks for your feedback.
Peter Efland, Marko Saric, Guillaume Foutry and 165 other people liked this
We would be happy to provide feedback in advance next time.
- Louis Gray
IMHO you wouldn't stir such a tempest if you'd do a better job explaining things (or requesting feedback in advance—you could use Friendfeed for that and get lots of comments).
- Mistletoe Glen
Thank goodness you responded when you did - the frothy mob outside was about finished building the gallows!
- Brett Kelly
at the rate that #fixreplies tweets are coming down the pipe they'd be nuts to not re-think their decision and/or explanation
- Chris Heath
Nice to know you're listening!
- Michael Fidler
You should ask for people's thoughts first.
- Michael McKean
I reckon removing the feature was a good things. Has left holes though, that probably shoulda been filled first.
- Tim
Louis: sorry, until Twitter fixes how it treats early adopters I'm not giving Twitter free consulting. Only suckers would do that. We helped build Twitter and then it stabs us in the back. That's not making me willing to provide free consulting. Don't know why you'd do that.
- Robert Scoble
I volunteer to be your community manager for a month free. If I'm effective at communicating ahead of swarms like this, you can hire me and pay me retroactively. Because seriously? You really need someone to communicate with your users in real time.
- Karoli
I hope "considering alternatives" is a euphemism for "we'll have it back right stat, sorry!"
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
@scobleizer; "stabs us in the back" A bit over the top perhaps?
- Jordan Brock
Jordon: it absolutely is NOT over the top. When they recommend someone who has only been on Twitter a week or two as a recommended follower they are stabbing users who put a lot more time into the service directly in the back. I have about 1,000 days on Twitter and have put thousands of hours into the service. The way Twitter treats its users is deplorable.
- Robert Scoble
Jordan, Mr. Scoble has a propensity for the dramatic. :)
- Brett Kelly
Well since it was just a "small setting update" the simplest alternative should be to just undo the change, right?
- Ken Sheppardson
Brett: when you put thousands of hours into something and you get stabbed in the back by the owners of that thing you see how it feels.
- Robert Scoble
In the meantime, Twitter can get the celebrities to help out with its community problems. I'm not working for free and anyone who does for a company that stabs its users in the back is a sucker.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I can offer my services for free all day to Twitter. I know they won't take me up on it as they aren't interested in what I have to say and their track record proves that.
- Louis Gray
I'm really curious to know what kind of stats that were tracked to make this decision. Both @al3x and @dougw are hinting that there wasn't a significant number of people "using this feature", which I am extremely skeptical of. Would tracking the number of times I click out to a profile that I'm not following be enough? It is impossible for them to track whether I personally received value from a tweet even if I didn't click through, right?
- Lee Adkins
"The way Twitter treats its users is deplorable" What other instances justify this statement?
- Angus Burton
@ev Don't you have more important things to focus on? ie., affiliate marketers who don't disclose what they're doing, follow bots, and all of the spam and manipulation that's ruining twitter?.
- Michael Fidler
Louis, I think @ev is listening to you and other Internet celebs, but not nobodies like me.
- Vinko
Vinko, I'm no Internet celebrity, and I don't believe I've been addressed by him ever, so he has an odd way of "listening".
- Louis Gray
It's an echo chamber
- dedlam
You can't go asking your customers about every checkbox and option. Knowing which is what makes a good decision maker.
- Ryan Stanley
Sure you can, when it's a feature change that enough users expect to have. It's not disabling a checkbox, it's disabling community discovery.
- Karoli
Karoli, here here!!
- Vinko
Twitter is clearly listening, and responding quickly and in public. Now, they need to roll back the change
- Bob Morris (polizeros)
Twitter knows all the geeks moved to FF. I doubt Oprah considers it a feature change.
- Ryan Stanley
wow what a conversation.
- Dustin
+1 to dedlam :)
- Jordan Brock
Twitter will "consider alternatives" until #fixreplies starts trending back down, which will happen over the next 24 hrs or so. Then they'll look to see if there's any dip in the user number or sign-up rates. There won't be, as nobody's actually willing to leave Twitter over this and new users who've accepted the default setting don't know this option was there, so this will be the last word on the subject you'll see from ev.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, that's true today and not true in the future. Twitter's continued decision to ignore user feedback and input and make arbitrary decisions will ultimately result in someone creating the next shiny thing. It happened with other services/sites and it will again.
- Karoli
Karoli: That'll happen either way.
- Ken Sheppardson
There must be a strategy around this, right? They wouldn't just arbitrarily do this. What would be the next feature they implement to make this redundant?
- Gregg Scott
Hmm. So, Ev is "Reading people's thoughts." wouldn't it be better if he talked and listened.
- Michael Markman
Michael: Thought reading must be something they're testing internally. Probably part of Twitter Pro.
- Ken Sheppardson
Could be the move that pushes more people over the FF wall. I've not considered this move until now, but now.....
- Debi Jones
@scobleizer, i thought the point of using twitter was because you want to not because you want fame and a pat on the back from evan for "helping". shame on you, that's the biggest douchery i've heard in quite some time.
- Snipergirl
Leather is an astute reader! :-)
- Robert Scoble
Snipergirl: that's BS. If you are in the media business the size of your audience allows you to build a business. Before the recommended follower list Mashable, GigaOm, and TechCrunch had smaller audiences than I did on Twitter. Now they have far bigger ones and people who don't do many tweets at all are rewarded while the rest of us suckers are left in the back of the bus. If I just...
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- Robert Scoble
The simple alternative is to make is a user preference. Even better would be groups, and then to apply said preference to groups.
- Barney Craggs
@scobleizer if it's a business to you then vote with your feet and go to a different service and stop whining about evan not paying you enough attention!
- Snipergirl
Snipergirl: that's exactly what I've done. But, sorry, I've put thousands of hours in and 904 days into Twitter. When a service treats someone who has put far less work into it better than me, I deserve to whine a little bit and anyone who says I don't isn't worth listening to. Let's put it this way. I see on LinkedIn that you are a hospital worker. What if you put in the time, do a...
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- Robert Scoble
Not entirely sure I agree with Robert, but I'll say this: it is incredibly frustrating when sites you use as intensely as Facebook and Twitter ignore the intelligent users. I won't say intelligent = early adopters, and I won't even say that it precludes the celebrities, but it is extremely tiring offering "feedback" when you're treated as just one voice. Clearly, CEO's are out of touch and don't understand us; yet, running a [sufficiently large] site by total democracy trends towards the stupid. #fixreplies
- tollie williams
Matt: I get what you're trying to say, but, here's another way to look at it. Twitter has signaled to the world that there's no way you'll ever been seen as a "top tier" person. Take me out of it. No matter how many hours you spend, no matter how popular you'll get, you won't be treated the same way as one of their personal friends and/or celebrities that they want to feature. To me that sucks. It is not a meritocracy. It's a closed society and that's everything I work against.
- Robert Scoble
The real problem is like this: Twitter was made for broadcasting and was never meant to be a convesational platform. Even friendfeed does the comments half baked. There are no comments for comments.
- Nitin Nanivadekar
The only feedback users contribute (that matters) is what they buy or use. If you don't like Twitter, leave.
- Jason Nunnelley
@Gattoo seriously, wouldn't this conversation be a LOT easier with threading and a respond feature?
- Jason Nunnelley
I don't know about meritocracies or closed societies, but i do know that the main way I find new people to follow on twitter is by seeing who the people I already follow are talking to...and if they say something of interest to me in a reply to them, I want to check that person out. If all I see are replies to people I already follow, I won't find anyone knew unless I pay much closer...
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- Shawna Benson
Gattoo: I disagree with that at least in part. The thing that always excited me about this media is that it's two way. You talk, I respond. But Twitter has biased its business toward the serving of celebrities who mostly use Twitter to broadcast and less to those who try to use it to have conversations with people. That's their right. It's my right to whine about it, though. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Shawna: yup. I think Twitter wants to push people like you to use search instead of the "@ replies" tab.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: that's a problem -- why would I search on something I don't even know to search for unless someone mentions it? Let's say person A tells person B something about daffodils and I find that interesting enough to go check out person B and start following them based on who they are, who they talk to, etc. Now, 'daffodils' aren't normally something I go randomly searching for info...
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- Shawna Benson
@scobleizer It's possible you give them far too much credit. I doubt they've any plan beyond limiting feed size.
- Jason Nunnelley
Shawna: I mean you can search for someone who uses your name. I do that on Seesmic Desktop and here on friendfeed and it regularly catches people who both use @scobleizer as well as people who just say "scoble" etc. Then I can go off and check them out, just the same as if I used the @mentions page.
- Robert Scoble
Jason: you're right. Twitter's team sure seems like they don't think things out and take the easy road most times. The recommended follower list is just one example of that. They could have done something really magical, but instead they did something half assed. They should have just hired Guy Kawasaki to do an AllTop page for it. That would have been better than what we got.
- Robert Scoble
"we've learned most people want to see when someone they follow replies to another person they follow [...] [h]owever, receiving one-sided fragments via replies sent to folks you don't follow in your timeline is undesirable" so despite what we apparently learned that people want we've decided to scrap it anyway. Interesting use of the word "learned" there.
- Mark H
The simple way of looking at it for me seems to be- when they say it's what most people are telling them to do, it's actually them telling most people what to do.
- Iain Baker
Scoble: You deserve a couple hundred thousand followers, for sure. I joined Twitter bc I read a post you wrote in '07. I hadn't looked at your follower count in a while; figured for sure you had at least been rotated in Suggest Users by now. That just makes me dislike the Suggested Users crap even more. ... The question here, I guess, is: did you do something so bad that Twitter/Ev/Jack/Biz can not forgive you?
- john erik metcalf
Scoble: Actually, even if you did, it would still be bullshit. What is this, Texas politics? Good ol' boy system. They need to figure out a better way, obviously things are getting very unequal.
- john erik metcalf
I don't know, Scoble, I'm going to take a different angle. Did Ev ever ask you to spend "thousands of hours" and 900+ days on Twitter? If so, then I'd say you've got a gripe. Otherwise, you did it voluntarily for your benefit, and frankly, Ev doesn't owe you anything; he provided a service for free, you used the hell out of it (profiting along the way, I don't doubt). It sounds like...
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- Bob M. Montgomery
I already miss what my followees are saying to other people. I've been using Tweetree for awhile now, because it would display the tweet to which my followee is replying (unless it was a protected tweet). With the new change, that aspect doesn't work, and Tweetree's entire platform is practically destroyed...
- Qrystal MqKenzie
If there's one good thing about this, it's that I can probably follow more people: I used to not follow someone if all they do is reply to people without giving context of what they're talking about. Maybe they'll make it so the visibility of @replies to people I'm not following is set on a per-user basis... which would be great, because some of my followees were SO GOOD at giving context, it's a major loss to no longer be able to see their @replies to people I don't follow!
- Qrystal MqKenzie
Qrystal: I feel the same way, except now it's a huge hassle for me to actually find all the people I should be following.
- Guan Yang
Bryan, this is about a setting being removed that was not the default setting. If you had changed the default setting to this setting you would see every tweet by the people you were following (the default was and still is to hide the @'s to people you're not following). The change is now there is no choice that setting has been removed and anyone who set that setting is now back to the default (which it seems you've always been on).
- Chris Heath
@scobleizer please clarify: are you saying that "stab in the back" = "not being on the recommended list"?
- Michael Markman
I'm still trying to figure out why Scoble is so upset. While it's noble for him to have helped pioneer the service and offer input on making it better, I don't see how that equates to Twitter somehow owing him any type of allegiance. Also, people seem to have forgotten that Twitter is an independent entity, responsible only to its investors (ultimately) and, as such, they are free to...
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- Brett Kelly
@Brett your suggestion that people go elsewhere to find a similar Twitter service is what makes the free market so interesting and exciting. While Twitter cannot be everything to everyone, every decision Twitter makes affects their future success. Look at what happened to MySpace and the rise of Facebook or Ford compared to Honda. If Twitter leaves enough room, someone else will come...
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- Damond Nollan
from email
Michael: no. He's said in the past that he would asked to be removed if he was placed on the list. Thought I can see Scoble's frustration, I agree with Brett on this one.
- Angus Burton
I haven't read this thread in its entirety, so I apologize in advance if I repeat anyone else's position. Two thoughts: 1) If the powers that be at Twitter were simply concerned with reducing the noise in our streams, why not simply change the default setting of the @ replies to not show all, while keeping the option available? Instead, they change the default behavior and remove the...
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- Phil Essing
I wonder if Ev has made it over to friendfeed to read this. I can see Robert's points. It would have been cool if more 'meritorious' tweeps were added to the recommendeds. But when the average non-techie person signs up to Twitter they probably find it more attractive to follow P-Diddy and Ellen than to follow someone they've never heard of, regardless of how much valuable content they've added to the service. That being said, Twitter needs to adjust they're listening ears.
- Jesse Newhart
Phil: that was the setting. It used to be an option to turn on all replies from friends, now there are not at reply options at all. If you had made the settings change, you're back to the default.
- Chris Heath
Jesse: I have to suggest that the average person would probably prefer to follow someone that actually shares their interests, and beliefs, likes and dislikes. Thus the whole recommended users list on any site is bullshit, and completely worthless. In the absence of a personally worthwhile recommendation, the average non-tech would probably prefer to follow typical pop stars (Brittney,...
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- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Phil: The network I've built since 2007 was largely built exactly with the optional feature that they just removed. I don't mean to sound hysterical or overly dramatic, but the change eliminated something that was fundamental to how I used twitter. It is a free service, they can do as they see fit, it's just a less useful free service to me than it once was.
- motownmutt
All the discussion here on FF is neat... but should it be over here too/instead? http://getsatisfaction.com/twitter... (personally, I won't be asking for the 'replies' to come back but... to each their own)
- Jay Cuthrell
Jay: I find that Getsatisfaction.com never lives up to its name. I can't think of an issue I've posted or looked into where the company in question posted something. I've found several companies who reirect all their support questions to there, apparently as a convenient black hole.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Brett: Twitter being a free service and held by private investors do not make it immune to the desires of its user base which are the source of its (theoretical) future earnings potential. The less it chooses to work with its user base, and the more it makes decisions that alienate them, the more likely it it that they bail (as HUGE numbers already do withing 30,60,90days of account...
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- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Rob: There are 11 members of Twitter on GetSatisfaction and < 60,000 customers in the system. So, not perfect but it is a trending area and support does read things there. As a side note, that area has over 10,000 support topics... imagine the insanity of a phone support IVR menu that would take 12 hours to delineate all those "issues" :-)
- Jay Cuthrell
Jay: No one from twitter support supports a damn thing, unless you're oprah, or brittney or aplusk. Not on getsatisfaction and not anywhere.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Jay: I have never seen anyone from any company answer any question about anything on getsatisfaction.com. This includes WAY more companies that I've looked into than twitter. I never expected anyone from twitter to answer, but I've sure as hell expected someone from ping.fm to answer when that's where their support link took me,
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Update from Twitter - "...we're making a change such that any updates beginning with @username (that are not explicitly created by clicking on the reply icon) will be seen by everyone following that account. This will bring back some serendipity and discovery and we can do this very soon" And they've started designing a new feature which will "give folks far more control over what they...
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- Sharon McPherson
Rob: I'm not trying to change your mind... just to give you an idea of the scope of what "support" would entail. Of the 11 Twitter employees on GetSatisfaction they have collectively produced 1045 responses as of the count today on their staff page.
- Jay Cuthrell
When I last looked their last response had been over three months prior to the date i was looking. I would welcome my mind being changed, but you're trying to change it on two subjects I don't have much faith in a) twitter support in general, and b) getsatisfaction's overall effectiveness. Links may change my mind.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Chris Heath: It seems I wrongly assumed that the @ replies were set to all by default, likely because I chose that setting a long time ago. Thanks. However, that truly begs the question as to why the folks at Twitter decided to remove the option.
- Phil Essing
motownmutt: Like I said, I do understand the frustration caused by this feature removal, a frustration which I share. That being said, I'm not going to lose any sleep as a result.
- Phil Essing
i'm going to say this fully knowing the fan boy charges i will open myself up to - u can see how concerned i am about that possibility (yawn) - from my perspective scoble has a valid point (Louis is also welcome to offer help to a service he values btw) - about this time last year a myriad of similar conversations were taking place here as twitter crashed MULTIPLE times a day - i cant...
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- Marco(aureliusmaximus)
I am actually fine with the change because one can always go the persons page to find who he/she has replied to and it makes your page less cluttered. There is always some trade off but i am fine. I am waiting for more options from twitter in the future.
- ashish
Funny take on this - http://cli.gs/dumb
- Brian Kelley
I love the twitter product, but am growing more disgusted by the twitter management team. There is zero user input solicitation and this latest event #fixreplies is a classic mistake of product mgrs who fail to engage their customer base to get valuable feedback on the design prior to go live; instead, twitter mgmt is releasing features that are not vetting by their user base - huge...
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- Susan Beebe
waves at Evan Williams. Hey Ev!
- Thomas Hawk
Evan, perhaps with the next major functional change you might consider inviting ideas of your users; a good example of how this can work is presented by SalesForce.com: 'Idea Exchange' http://ideas.salesforce.com/ (no suprise SalesForce.com is good in gathering and using feedback from their customers; being a CRM company ;-) )
- Jeroen De Miranda
Scoble, you are a follow-blocker, and as such, you laid the groundwork for the devs putting in this nerf. There are quite a few thin-skinned A-listers who hate seeing back-talk in the @ tabs. this accommodated their wailing. It's wrong and should be put back. People who are vain enough to want to broadcast to followers have to accept that they will hear from the public, and often critically. Otherwise, go on a private AIM or FB chat.
- Prokofy Neva
Prokofy: bullshit. If you are a jerk you don't deserve to mess up my experience. You can keep commenting on your own place and I'll still see it anyway. Everyone I know searches on their last name. But I absolutely won't back down from your bullying and change my opinions. I will keep blocking people who are jerks and who are spammers. That's the only way we can keep our community from destroying itself over time. You are NOT entitled to get in my face, sorry.
- Robert Scoble
well, this whole conversation could never have happened on Twitter. I do appreciate the attention and awareness of the entire Friendfeed team, but for me the essential feature is the threaded comments.
- Peter Efland
Twitter Blog: We Learned A Lot - http://blog.twitter.com/2009...
Bailey McCann, K.D., Kevin Whalen and 9 other people liked this
I still want to see a "we're sorry for not communicating better. We'll be better in the future." I don't think they realize this isn't about that feature. It's about us being mad at their lack of communication.
- Jesse Stay
I think Scoble would say it's about the feature, actually.
- Brett Kelly
Brett I don't care about the feature. I care that they're removing features without warning the community before-hand. I care that they're not being transparent about what's going on. I care that they're laughing on the sidelines as their service gets ripped apart. I care that @jack needs new toothpaste.
- Jesse Stay
+1 Jesse. @Jack needs advance notification of service modifications.
- Bill Sodeman
When Biz says "not specifically created using the reply icon" that leaves only the initiating comment or query to a user and not any follow-up. Hmmm.
- Gregg Scott
Jesse, you need to give them credit for acknowledging the feedback they're getting. It may not be perfect or to your liking but we're further along than we were.
- Gregg Scott
Brett: Twitter has turned its back on the community and it is not surprising to me to see this reaction.
- Robert Scoble
Twitter being twitter is surprising?
- Matthew DeVries
My offer to serve as community manager for a month free of charge with the proviso that they pay me after they discover the value of my services still stands.
- Karoli
What service did they kill? I haven't gone to twitter-actual in 3 months. Did this hurt tweetdeck?
- Matthew DeVries
I'm in UPS hell.
That's redundant.
- Gregg Scott
We all know the Failwhale's name, but do the scheduled-maintenance caterpillar and soft-serve cone have monikers? http://twitpic.com/54bju
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Kim and Tsali, The Native of FF liked this
Crawling Caterpillar. The Soft 'Server'.
- Gregg Scott
Creamy Crawler?
- Johnny Worthington
Scheduled Filler Caterpillar and the Oh Noes Cone?
- Kevin Fox
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