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Responding to commenters on recent bannings - http://mondoweiss.net/2012...

March 1, 2012 from Mondoweiss - Comment - Like - Share

Following the announcement of our new comments policy, there’s been considerable criticism of Adam Horowitz and me for a lack of transparency in banning decisions. We never explained commenter bannings in the past, but given the celebrity of Richard Witty … Continue reading →

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My comment at Mondoweiss: Phil, I appreciate your thoughtful and graceful explanation for Mondoweiss editorial policies. Any discussion about the issues you have raised that is not appropriate for Mondoweiss can be pursued here: http://friendfeed.com/mondowe... And in this specific thread:... more... - Sean McBride

Sean McBride: didn't see you had brought this one over already. I'll try and delete mine. It's now deleted. - mark e

From Weiss: "Richard Witty and Jeffrey Blankfort, both of whom I consider friends" I suspect Blankfort might crack a rib laughing over that. - mark e

mark e -- are you beginning to appreciate the flexibility of this software platform for organizing discussions? :) In any case, I think Phil was trying to be diplomatic, which is the smart thing to do. - Sean McBride

Deleting one's own posts is easy: Edit > Delete this entry. You have total control over your own posts, and can edit or delete them at any time in the future. - Sean McBride

Perhaps a new subtitle at Mondoweiss might be in order? Mondoweiss: A Place For Liberal Zionist Jewish People To Advocate Reform In The Homeland - mark e

Phil's main point: to be effective politically, one must be careful not to allow criticism of Israel and the Israel lobby to drift into anti-Semitic hate speech. I strongly agree. I would disagree, however, that Jeff Blankfort has made any anti-Semitic statements (and I don't think that Phil made that accusation). - Sean McBride

mark e -- Phil Weiss is by no conceivable stretch of the imagination a "liberal Zionist," in my humble opinion. But he does find anti-Semitic hate speech to be intolerable, as should we all. Defining what that hate speech is is problematic, but it is doable. Certainly any attempt to incite hostility towards Jews in general on the basis of actions by the Israeli government or Israel lobby would qualify. - Sean McBride

Regarding Phil's wish to engage in reasonable discussion with mainstream Zionists (and even extreme right-wing Zionists) -- of course we should be doing that. The truth will out through fair and open debate. - Sean McBride

I love this paragraph: "We preserved Witty’s presence here over the years because he was a stand-in for American Zionist opinion and there was value in having his voice. But in the end the moderators agreed that Richard had become a troll, pulling the conversation away from the thread, repeating arguments, causing moderators too much work." So they remove Witty and add half a dozen less witty Witty spam-alikes, plus open the site up to crypto-zionist witch hunts against anti-zionists. - mark e

Sean McBride - I've seen this thing happen too many times before not recognize the code change. I'll have to disagree with you here. With regard to Weiss, I recommend a German film from the 70's called Mephisto. The film is based upon a real person, but they changed his role. In the film he tries to get along while at the same time tries to help his friends. The real person was much... more... - mark e

mark e -- actually, I've seen the film (I'm a fanatical movie buff). That's not my read on Weiss at all -- we will have to disagree on this point. Try to see the big picture here -- scan the last few dozen articles on Mondoweiss -- it's as hard edge as ever, pulling no punches. The Blankfort episode is a big blip on the screen, but it's still only a blip. Weiss deserves more respect than you are giving him, in my opinion. - Sean McBride

Regarding Adam Horowitz's articles: they all strike me as being solid and uncompromising. - Sean McBride

Sean - my portrayal of Weiss probably isn't correct. I think what Blankfort said about him is more likely closer to the truth. As for Horowitz, he lives down to his last name. One can not support the war crimes of zionists and the slander of zionists and support the Palestinians at the same time. The war crimes of zionists and slander of zionists leads to more hardship for Palestinians.... more... - mark e

Update--Adam did respond to my post in the affirmative so he gets points for that. - American

Sean, I respect Phil also, but I also think he is way, way too into this anti semitism worry and censoring. If anti semitism rears it head in any big way it isn't gonna be because of anything anyone said about Jewish history or the Jews in general, it will be because of something the "Jewish State" does that people take out on the Jews.. He's likely to cause more resentment of Jews by... more... - American

I didn't see anyone posting that they are leaving the site. Except taxi, yesterday. I also see that the banning of the inconsequential among the commenters was not addressed by Phil - potsherd

All I can think to say is WOW: http://mondoweiss.net/2012... - mark e

"I also see that the banning of the inconsequential among the commenters was not addressed by Phil" The backlash of banning the inconsequentials is not seen as a threat that needed to be addressed for the sake of the site's reputation. Banning Blankfort gave Mondoweiss a huge credibility hit and this "explanation" by Weiss is known as "damage control". - mark e

Moving comment by Miriam there. Also, pro-Atzmon, and it was published. - Sean McBride

American -- your comment was published. Would you agree that European Jews suffered something rather more than "discrimination" last century? - Sean McBride

mark e -- Adam Horowitz has been highly critical of the Israeli government, the Israel lobby and Zionism. What more do you want from him? To commit harakiri? :) Mondoweiss has a more open-minded moderation policy than any other quality forum I can think of. - Sean McBride

Sean McBride - "Adam Horowitz has been highly critical of the Israeli government" So has Donald. Horowitz can be as critical as he wants, but if he promotes their disgusting wars and Libya and Syria are Israel's wars, as he has been, then he's a hypocrite. He is helping Israel kill people by legitimizing Israel's propaganda. And he's hurting the Palestinians far more than helping them,... more... - mark e

mark e -- well -- I have opposed the Libya War and the proposed Syria War on the grounds that they are extensions of the Clean Break grand strategic plan designed by Richard Perle and his cronies. I was a big fan of Christopher Hitchens until he had a nervous breakdown after 9/11 and morphed into a hysterical neocon and Islamophobe. I haven't read all of Adam's articles -- the ones I have read were pretty much on the same page with my beliefs and analysis. - Sean McBride

A comment of mine to Phil at MW: Phil, 1. I think it's positive and commendable that you are conducting your explorations into Zionism from within your own (often illustrious) cultural tradition -- you openly embrace it and challenge it from within (you "plant [your] flag in Jewish turf"). In some ways in the current political climate that takes more character and backbone than going... more... - Sean McBride

Sean McBride - up until Hitchens adorned kneepads and worshipped at the alter of neoconnery, I thought his heart was in the right place. But also found him to be self-obsessed, excessively wordy and rather vacant. Not to mention boring to listen to or read. ;) With regard to Horowitz, Libya and Syria, I've seen nothing from Mondoweiss about these conflicts that wasn't in favor of them.... more... - mark e

I'll add that right now, Syria is where Israel is fighting a "hot" war, Iran is a covert war and still a potential "hot" war. Common sense would dictate that Syria should be given at least equal exposure as Iran for that reason alone, especially to counter the zionist propaganda. But where is Mondoweiss? They hardly mention Syria or the war crimes the zionists are committing there. They... more... - mark e

Guilt by association. Very clever. - mark e

A comment by me on this thread on MW did not pass moderation. I missed the original discussion that resulted in the banning. I pointed out that Zionism and racialist anti-Semitism were fraternal twins, and that this role included Zionist cooperation with the Nazi regime in the Transfer Agreement, documented by Edwin Black in his book. I also cited the terrific interview with Jeff in... more... - Harry Clark

Reading this makes me understand why Phil banned these topics, though I'm sure Jeff's comments were more thoughtful than this. Of course the WZO couldn't control the boycott, whatever deal the Nazis thought they were getting. Otherwise this is "holocaust denial", omits Poland, where 3 million Jews lived in 1939. There were a few tens of thousands left in 1945. Pray tell, where did they all go? Well, this is one board I no longer follow (along with MW, though I read the posts there). - Harry Clark

Harry Clark: here is how this software platform works: you have the power personally to block any other users you don't like. You won't see their posts again and you can concentrate on the users whose posts you like. It's a self-organizing, bottom-up system. I agree that Landon seems to be drifting into peculiar territory, but the best way to handle him is through factual and reasonable rebuttal. - Sean McBride

mark e: here is a list of Adam Horowitz's articles on Mondoweiss: http://mondoweiss.net/author... I agree with most of them. Do you agree with any of them? - Sean McBride

Sean, if you are talking about the German Holocaust then yes of course it was more than discrimination. But I consider the holocaust to be a total aberration in humankind carried out by a cult, the Nazis. The ancient persecutions of Jews they talk about, if you look at ancient history, wasn't different from the persecution of other tribes and religions --slaughtering the 'other' back... more... - American

American -- this is what most strikes me: biblical and Jewish ideology at the core seems to be organized around perpetual and apocalyptic conflict between the chosen nation (Israel, Zion) and "the nations" (goyim). This is the fundamental myth and meme. Obviously cult believers in such an ideology could easily get trapped in an endless cycle self-generated and self-perpetuating conflict... more... - Sean McBride

Messianism and xenophobia of course pervade most or all human cultures -- it's all a matter of degree. - Sean McBride

Sean...,as a equestrian, horse lover, breeder for decades I know genes can determine temperaments and personality as well as physical conformation. Serious animal breeders breed for traits. The environment the animal is raised in can change their inherited temperament and the same I believe is absolutely is true for humans. The question is, can for example some mental "conditioning" of... more... - American

Looking down the road, I suspect that scientists will discover an important genetic component in all manifestations of tribalism, ethnocentrism, racism, xenophobia, etc. It will all be mapped out in detail. What most strikes me about these behaviors is their obsessive-compulsive quality -- people who demonstrate these behaviors seem out of control, sleepwalking, mere automatons. The phenenomon has a mechanistic and deterministic feel about it. - Sean McBride

They've already discovered it, Sean. Dr. Norman Doidge wrote about it in the The Brain That Changes Itself. He said that since 2000, neuroscientists have discovered that unlike what they thought before: your intelligence determines your culture and therefore your actions, it is the other way around: your behavior determines the culture and culture rewires the brain. Takes six months for... more... - MRW

Sean..about Judaism. I had a close Jewish friend that was only Jewish in the sense he still went to Temple.. One of the kindest people you would ever know. He was the second husband of a widowed friend of our family who was gentile. After his death some years ago his wife and I were reminiscing about various things we had done, taking boat trips together and etc. and how he told... more... - American

A CBC interview with Dr. Doidge: interview starts at 29:30, and ends at 45:43. October 19, 2009 - Try To See It My Way http://www.cbc.ca/thenext... Puts a whole different cast on the concept of 'ancient values' and pride in some formof bahvior that was appropriate two millennia ago. - MRW

American -- I think one has to draw a distinction between pre-Enlightenment Judaism and post-Enlightenment Judaism -- the latter is less dark, less obsessive-compulsive, less tribalistic and more rational, tolerant and open-minded than the former. And there is also the curious matter that some secular Jews (and secular left-wing Jews -- even communists) can be as ethnocentric, xenophobic and self-ghettoizing as Jewish religious Zionists. - Sean McBride

Interesting MRW.....but then it makes sense doesn't it? It's like changing your "habits"....by doing or not doing something a certain number of times until it becomes automatic or an automatic thought. - American

Yeah, takes three days to begin to change a habit, but six months to get it to start rewiring your brain. - MRW

The entire purpose of religious cults, and their repetitive rites and ceremonies, is to keep one's brain hardwired in a way that benefits the cults' creators and leaders. Religion is all about psychological programming. - Sean McBride

Sean...I can't even get into Judaism because I don't know much about it or all the different sects. But I think it's pretty obvious that the tribal 'identity' part for Jews, whether religious or secular, is the glue for many of them. - American

I have a strong interest in world religions, and have read a great deal about Judaism (and the Abrahamic tradition in general). I know the details. Ethnocentrism seems to be the glue that holds together all branches of Judaism, with varying degrees of intensity -- ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. It's no wonder that so many religious Jews all across the spectrum from right to left are susceptible to the lure of ethnic nationalism (Zionism in this case). - Sean McBride

Religion sort of makes my eyes glaze over. Although we belong to the Episcopal church I consider myself spiritual instead of religious. I had 16 years of Catholic education at my Jesuit Uncle's insistence , kindergarten to boarding school to first two years of university before I transfered for my last two years. It never stuck with me I gravitated more to the analytical and critical thought side. ..which the Jesuits were very good at, maybe too good. LOL - American

I do remember reading the Koran as a assigment in high school. We were given different religions, all kinds of various religious and political movements and propaganda pieces to critique and deconstruct. I remember my impression was that Islam was not half as bloody as the bible. LOL - American

Sean McBride: "here is a list of Adam Horowitz's articles on Mondoweiss: http://mondoweiss.net/author... I agree with most of them. Do you agree with any of them?" I wasn't asking for a list of every article Horowitz authored, but ones specific to the Syrian and Libyan wars, and you know that, Sean McBride. Here is what I wrote for reference: "Can you provide a link to what Horowitz wrote about these Israeli wars of aggression that you agreed with? Perhaps I missed it?" - mark e

Harry Clark - thanks for posting that interview of Blankfort. It was very interesting and he talked a lot of his background and knowledge of local politics. I had not seen him talk about those kinds of things much. I hope you're still looking in, in spite of the zionist landon troll. They do that kind of stuff all the time. - mark e

mark e -- one often has disagreements with political allies -- sometimes many disagreements. I don't attribute bad motives to MW simply because I disagree with Phil and Adam on Libya and Syria. What counts is their overall vision. - Sean McBride

American -- the Bible is bloodier than the Koran, true. Objective content analysis has easily established that fact. - Sean McBride

sorry just got to an actual PC.... i find the fact that PW addressed our concerns far too little, too late. he said exactly what we could expect, but in no way ameliorated a very poor judgement call (IMHO). i have NO problem with the new rules.... but JB was targeted for *past* crimes, that the new rules would have taken care of (i believe JB would have avoided WWII digressions if given... more... - anonymouscomments

also, when the rules came down, i thought i was banned..... i have talked about 9/11 a fair amount. if JB was banned for nuanced discussion, a *few* times, of a topic that would henceforth be verbotten.... why was i not banned for OFTEN talking about a different henceforth banned topic? why? i even dipped my toes in when those JB WWII threads came out, defending him repeatedly. the... more... - anonymouscomments

I agree, mous. I found Phil's post quite offensive. It had a very hollow ring to it. - patm

Sean "Looking down the road, I suspect that scientists will discover an important genetic component in all manifestations of tribalism, ethnocentrism, racism, xenophobia, etc. It will all be mapped out in detail. What most strikes me about these behaviors is their obsessive-compulsive quality -- people who demonstrate these behaviors seem out of control, sleepwalking, mere automatons.... more... - Danaa

Annie confirmed today that the "staff" on the site don't have their comments moderated. This undoubtedly includes the moderators. It's a two-tier system of participation, like the "superusers" at Daily Kos vs the unwashed horde. - potsherd

Potsherd - it goes both ways. I was surprised to see some of my less temperate comments make it through. In fact, I later (when temper cooled some) wished I could remove a couple of comments of mine, like you can do here on FriendFeed. I suspect that some commenters have something of a "trusted user" status and are rarely moderated. Maybe it's a privilege that can be removed. that being said, I should really watch for that temper of mine... - Danaa

I usually check the section on the right hand side under "recent comments" to see if there are any new comments. Since the comment system is so mixed up, that's usually the only way I can find where the newer comments on a thread had been posted, without going through the whole thread comment by comment, which can be really daunting in those 100+ comment threads. Often when I click on... more... - mark e

Danaa, the reason I ended up as "Potsherd2" for a while is that a glitch in the software was posting my comments without sending them to moderation. When someone found out about this, they closed the account, which is in essence banning. I couldn't open another account under another name. When I contacted Phil, he was clear that he would rather leave me banned than let my comments go... more... - potsherd

WTF? http://mondoweiss.net/2012... I never thought much of mooser, he always seemed to be a spoiled, insecure, adolescent, redneck tosser. - mark e

There is a contridiction at MW. I'll call it a "Phil conflict". Phil's purpose I think we all know is to bring Jews to the light about zionism and Israel. That means he himself thinks Jews bear some collective or general responsibility for Israel and zionism and they should stand up and speak out. BUT, then he doesn't want anyone to imply that Jews have some collective responsibility... more... - American

American, I see that Annie and Walid and Shmuel are discussing the 1933 anti-Nazi boycott. I just found an exchange between Hostage and myself on the matter some months ago here http://mondoweiss.net/2011... here, http://mondoweiss.net/2011... and here http://mondoweiss.net/2011... - Robert Werdine

Robert, I just posted the following on the same thread as an answer to Shmuel. It sums up my opinion on the Jewish world call for the boycott against Germany. >>>>Shmuel said--"In revisionist “history” however, it becomes important, because it frames Nazi anti-Jewish policies as part of a “war” between Germany and “International Jewry” – actually started by the Jews! If that isn’t... more... - American

The point here Robert is it doesn't matter if the boycott got backed down and wasn't successful --it's how this public declaration of economic war appeared to Hitler and the Germans and increased their dislike of Jews and framed them even more as 'enemies" of Germany and the German people. It was a very stupid thing to do considering Hitler had control of millions of Jews he could take... more... - American

I just read the comments by Thomson Rutherford and American about zionist support among the Christian evangelicals. Very interesting, I had assumed, like several others, it appears, that these people were much more pro-Israel than it looks like they actually are. Never being a church person, what went on among these religious types was never something I knew about much first hand. The... more... - mark e

I've been skimming the MW "Responding to commenters on recent bannings" thread. I wrote up a list of dates a couple of years ago for Yonira, who was incensed that I would, from Edwin Black's book (although I called him Edwin Brown). http://mondoweiss.net/2010... . I went into my comments to get the URL for an April 22, 1984 Channel 5 10 O'Clock... more... - MRW

I've noticed that a *factual* discussion about European/Jewish relations in the first half the 20th century causes enormous consternation and anxiety among some MW commenters -- and a complete shutdown of their rational faculties. It's a really important topic to discuss, explore and understand in the context of contemporary political, cultural and military conflict over Israel and Zionism. Feel free to discuss it in new threads here. - Sean McBride

NY Times>>WORLD JEWS PLAN TO WIDEN BOYCOTT; Leaders of 35 Nations to Take Up Anti-Nazi Campaign in Amsterdam Tomorrow. July 19, 1933. http://select.nytimes.com/gst... - MRW

MRW - "Now, tell me what's so horrible about knowing this, or stating the facts." A more widespread knowledge of the connections between the nazis and Jewish zionists, and specifically how the zionists worked with the nazis to betray Jewish people and how much the zionists helped the nazis? You have to ask? :) OK, this knowledge is pretty well known to a lot of us who have been opposed... more... - mark e

What would finding out the zionists colluded with the nazis, betrayed many, many Jews, knowing full well those people would be going to their deaths and that these zionists founded Israel, what would this knowledge do to your view of zionism and Israel? This is the absolute worst betrayal you can imagine - Jews betraying Jews to nazis. Much worse than goys doing it. Would you still feel... more... - mark e

Once the zionist myth gets busted by something like this, I mean these are deep belief that will be shattered, all of it will fall. No aspect of zionism will ever be able to pass the smell test after that. That means no liberal zionism, either, you wouldn't have any credibility. This is why both hard core zionists and their soft core liberal cousins are so opposed to anybody talking... more... - mark e

From the 1933 New York Times article: "The Jewish World Economic Conference arranged to be held here in October is being preceded by a gathering of Continental leaders of the faith in Amsterdam Thursday at which both Britain and the United States will also be represented." The phrase from the title -- "Reich Jews' Dominance Is Ended" -- to what does that refer? What dominance did they possess? - Sean McBride

Hostage returned with a vengeance: http://mondoweiss.net/2012... - mark e

Brilliant comment by Hostage in this Responding to Commenters thread on MW: http://mondoweiss.net/2012... I hope Phil and Adam read it. - MRW

mark e -- no shit, sherlock. He wiped their asses. - MRW

MRW - "I hope Phil and Adam read it." It wont make any difference. They might lie some more to try and justify what they are doing, but they wont go back. If Hostage continues, they'll probably ban him like Blankfort. - mark e

Sean -- a lock on banks, courts, hospitals, publishing, media, and shipping, according to my sister-in-law's (Jewish) mother who lived there at the time, although she was 11 when she was orphaned in WWII so what she knows is hearsay. The Jewish charities, run by the Zionists, refused to help her because she was too young to go to Palestine. They left her for dead. (The nuns found her in... more... - MRW

Good thing I copied all of Hostage's comments. Will add the latest. It's brilliant. When the turmoil here dies down, will post Blankfort's and Hostage's comments for everyone (download). Phil will see Balnkfort at Occupy AIPAC. - MRW

Hostage is getting into the deep stuff -- the roots of the problems that Mondoweiss is wrestling with. I started to get into these same issues earlier today when I drew the all-important distinction between pre-Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment Judaism and the Jewish tradition. - Sean McBride

I think Phil is sensitive to and knowledgeable about the issues Hostage raises with regard to those three branches of the Jewish tradition. - Sean McBride

You know, there is no reason why one can't collect the best comments by Jeff Blankfort, Hostage and others and store them under dedicated threads in this group. - Sean McBride

Pre-Enlightenment Judaism and the Jewish tradition: often racist, self-ghettoizing, xenophobic, intolerant, supremacist, brutal, superstitious, ignorant, anti-scientific, etc. Of course many pre-Enlightenment cultures were afflicted with these problems to one degree or another. - Sean McBride

Sean -- "racist, self-ghettoizing, xenophobic, intolerant, supremacist, brutal, superstitious, ignorant, anti-scientific, etc." Sounds like what is being created here in the US. - MRW

Yes -- the neocons are deliberately encouraging the expression of those traits among Christian Zionists. Cultural engineering and the promotion of Judeo-Christian fascism through Fox News and related media outlets and institutions. The debauching of America. - Sean McBride

It aint just the neocons doing that encouraging.... - mark e

Stunning comment by Hostage.Surprised it got thru. - American

American - please give me a link to the gilad-phil exchange - I never read it. - Taxi

Taxi...here is the interview ....http://www.gilad.co.uk/writing... is the thread at MW....http://mondoweiss.net/2011... is a link to Gilad's other comments at MW......http://mondoweiss.net/profile... - American

Cheers big ears! (hey don't touch your ears checking - it's just something the brits say!) - Taxi

Sean -- "Cultural engineering and the promotion of Judeo-Christian fascism." So is the term Judeo-Christian. A Zionist creation in the last 50 years. - MRW

Re-read the three mondoweiss links--his comments on Arendt--in Hostage's stellar comment. I like it when Hostage goes all KAPOW! with irrefutable facts. http://mondoweiss.net/2012... - MRW

kapow kabang kaboom - shshshsh shake that room! Oh Hostage you vroom! Oh Hostage you vroom! (hahahahahaha sorry folks but sometimes realism tickles my funny bone) - Taxi

I'm just listening to obama's speech to aipac 2012 and I've just lost my sense of humor (not for long don't worry folks - I'm the kinda person who'll be laughing and crying and meaning both in the middle of a nuclear fallout - uhuh I'm a great person to die alongside hahahahaha).... anyhooz yeah that disgusting obama phrase "zionism is NOT racism!" (oh the irony the irony the irony of a... more... - Taxi

They're rented callers I reckon, Landon. To me the freeform blogsphere is where I take the country's pulse and more and more yanks even in haaaaaaaaaretzzzzzz are saying bugger off to israel. Beside, c-span and the rest of them are irrelevant. Obama is secure in saying no to war with iran cuz he's taking this advise directly from our military. It's aipac versus the american military... more... - Taxi

Landon -- Henry Ford was an antisemite and Judeophobe. - Sean McBride

American -- what am I missing? Hasn't Phil Weiss been far more critical of his tribe (and the Jewish tradition) than most (any?) Anglos, Irish, Chinese, Italians, African-Americans, Arabs, French, Germans. Hispanics, Swedes, etc. have been of theirs? What exactly are you demanding of him and of Jews in general? To utterly renounce their cultural identity? Will you hold every other ethnic group in the world to this standard? (If I have misunderstood you, straighten me out.) - Sean McBride

Like me, American doesn't believe in censoring taboos. Full stop. (Straighten me out too American if I've got ya wrrrrrong!) - Taxi

American -- there are strong strands of racism in most ethnic cultures -- right? This isn't exclusively a Jewish or Zionist problem by any means. For instance, Europe and Europeans (and people of European descent) throughout their history have been afflicted with mild expressions of racism now and then. <irony> But I think one can reasonably argue that all groups (including Jews) need to address this issue aggressively and thoroughly within their respective cultures. - Sean McBride

Okay wot's going on? I just posted a comment and the site ate it up whole and without a trace! - Taxi

Sean, I don't remember the name of the arab philosopher, I'll have to search for it and pass it on when i do find it, but he's from the 'golden age' of the arabs and he wrote extensively about tribe loyalty and concluded that it is better for the tribe to go against a criminal member who committed a crime against another tribe as not doing so would lead to the tribe's slow suicide. He... more... - Taxi

Taxi -- isn't Arab culture as subject to tribal urges as European, British, Irish, French, German, Jewish, Chinese, Japanese, etc. cultures? There are some exceptions in every culture, of course. But I am curious to learn more about the Arab philosopher you mention. - Sean McBride

Sean, O.K. I'll straighten you out. First ,don't put words in my mouth with ridiculous twist like "demanding they utterly renounce their cultural identity". Second, follow along now....1) Jews have disliked Gentiles (thruout history) as much as Gentiles have disliked Jews (thruout history). If that isn't clear to you then you have missed what Hostage, I, Blankfort, Gilad and a host of... more... - American

American -- your claim is that Phil and Adam refuse to acknowledge that there are racist strains in Jewish culture as a whole (including Judaism) and are trying to restrict the discussion on this topic to Zionism only. I am still not convinced. I need to see some clear quotes and examples to be convinced. Are they critics or opponents of authors like Israel Shahak or Yehoshafat Harkabi,... more... - Sean McBride

American -- you know, I fully understand the white hot anger many people feel towards Israel now (especially with its frenetic and relentless campaign to push Americans into a war against Iran), but I think some of that rage is spilling over into anger against Jews in general -- and that worries me. Are you worried? Do we really need to be reminded of what happened in Germany in the... more... - Sean McBride

Sean -- "Does one need to be *really careful* about how one pursues disagreements with the Israeli government and the Israel lobby?" No. Not with the threat of war with Iran hanging over our collective US heads, and the utterly catastrophic consequences. Who is banging the drum for war? Who is saying it must be done for Israel's security when there is zero threat from Iran? Who is... more... - MRW

Well Sean if you can't see MW is saying that any suggestion of "Jews as a group or people" having any blame in the past or present I can't help you. And I can assure you I see the Big Picture, unhampered by pseudo intellectualism and philosophy and theory and based completely and entirely in fact. I really don't care about Phil's obsession with his Jewish identity or his ideas as... more... - American

I wish Hostage was contributing here. - MRW

So do I. I'd throw that lying, shamelessly self-serving comment he just posted about me right back in his teeth. http://mondoweiss.net/2012... - Robert Werdine

Sean, American jewery has invested mega money and time into spreading islamophobia right across America - I know xtian fundies did it too, but we're talking about usa jews here. It's already a 'worrying' state of affair. What is the difference between pushing islamophobia and pushing judophobia? Nuttin' to me. American jews pushed for islamophobia even relished spreading this dangerous... more... - Taxi

Sean, I echo most of what MRW said and have said the same over and over on MW. THIS---the Israeli Fetish and corruption in US government is something Zionist have "actively created" and other Jews have both actively "and passively" allowed to be created For Them. You ask am I concerned about "being careful" and need to be reminded what happened in the 1930's? In a word NO. I think the... more... - American

Landon, let me say this. Hostage is indeed very knowledgeable, and I’d be a liar if I said I haven’t learned much from him that I did not know. I have. But he's deceitful. Nothing illustrates this more than our latest spat over Deir Yassin, where the full extent of his dishonesty (and cowardice) was plain for all to see. Once again, Lord Hostage got mired in the muck of his mendacity,... more... - Robert Werdine

This was never a fair or honest debate. I had absolute faith in the integrity of my arguments and the validity of my assertions, which I documented and sourced in copious detail, and I had faith that they would withstand the harshest scrutiny that anyone here had to offer. Hostage, on the other hand, could not honestly debate the matter because he knew that the facts were against him.... more... - Robert Werdine

MRW, that was a great, righteous comment above that should appear on MW as well as here. That it will not is more fallout from the removal of Blankfort, and the shift in thinking that led to it. A shame. - chauncey

Hostage obviously has a long memory. He has never forgotton the times I’ve debunked his little deceptions. Here are a few examples that managed to pass moderation: Here, http://mondoweiss.net/2011... Here, http://mondoweiss.net/2011... And here, http://mondoweiss.net/2011... - Robert Werdine

Wordy werdine, please don't make us read stuff we already ran away from hahahaha! Just kidding! NOT! Hahahaha gotcha! - Taxi

Thanks, chauncey. Sean -- in addition to my above, reread Hostage's remarks here carefully. http://mondoweiss.net/2012... - MRW

MRW, American & Taxi - well said. - mark e

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video... ;) - mark e

Lol mark e, I've seen Tibetan monks fight more viciously than your gamers in the video. - Taxi

Taxi - those monks can get brutal with each other. :) For those people reading this now and scratching their heads wondering what this was all about, werdine and landon were in an epic fight about something very important (the nature of which escapes me atm) and were accusing each other of writing posts and then deleting them later to make the other look silly. Then, it seems that after having seen the video I posted up, both decided to delete those posts. :) They probably deleted them at the same time ;) - mark e

hahahah thanks mark e for the clarifications - just so you know, i'm always up for a left-of-center video distraction. - Taxi

Thought I'd post a comment here as I have been banned from commenting on MW since last September. Here's a quick recap for those who have forgotten me already (I know you haven't, Taxi, but there may be others who have). I'm a 42 year old modern orthodox Jew who was born and educated in the UK and who made aliyah in 1996. I self-identify as a Zionist. I have never voted Likud and I... more... - GuiltyFeat

Actually i have forgotten you - who are you again? apart form a self-confessed hoyteetoytee racist bugger. Whatever - welcome old friendo! o waitaminute! You that somebody from golders green, north london, right? now living on some poor suffering Palestinian family's land - rrrrriiiight you are hahahaha1 - Taxi

How are you guiltyfeat? wots the weather like in occupied Palestine? Suiting better than your country of birth? Hey bring all yer racist paranoid friends here - we'll all have a pic-nic hahahahha! - Taxi

Awww, sweetie, I knew you'd remember me. But i think I told you already that I live in Ra'anana on land which was bought by Jews almost a century ago. Sorry to disappoint. But let's not get all ad hominem again shall we. I have no problem stipulating that enormous harm was done by Israel to Palestinians during the creation of the State of Israel and thereafter. I want justice for the... more... - GuiltyFeat

If you really want justice for the palestinians then you'd get the fuck outta occuied palestine you peace fakester! (going out to dinner now a-ba-bye!) - Taxi

I remember you Guilty Feat. I doubt you got banned for calling anyone a anti semite back then since that was a pretty common slur.. Must have been something else. I have always wanted an opportunity to debate a real zionist without fear of censorship. So let me ask, when you say compensation for Palestines do you mean for those who are refugees in lieu of return or are you one who is in favor of moving all Palestines to Jordon as outlined in the Jerusalem Summit plan? - American

American, thanks for engaging. Firstly I'm pretty sure it was for calling someone who I believe is a low-grade anti-Semite, a low-grad anti-Semite. I believe Danaa, Chaos and even Annie explicitly asked Phil to ban me for upsetting the other person's feelings, but you would have to ask the moderators to be sure as no one ever communicated with me on the subject. As for compensation, I... more... - GuiltyFeat

O.K. so what you are saying is you would allow for some set number of Palestines to return ....how would you determine which ones and how many? Second question is do you think Israel should return all the illegal settlement land to Palestine and move the settlers to within 'legal' UN Israel boundaries? - American

I don't know how to determine who should return. I believe there are smarter people than I on both sides of the negotiations. I believe Israel should end the occupation of land outside its 67 borders. I couldn't care less what happens to the settlers currently living there although I imagine we would have to make room for them if they decided to return to Israel. If they chose to stay... more... - GuiltyFeat

I think GF that puts you in the Liberal zionist camp. IOW you are for Israel remaining as a Jewish majority or primilary Jewish ruled state but not in favor of Israel expanding or fully expanding into Palestine. I would agree that dismantling Israel is not practical and I have reservations about a One state solution because I don't think Israel would give Palestines full equality in... more... - American

Gf likes his/her occupation perfumed. Listen good gf, Arab jews belong in the mideast and euro jews like you need to get back to your own countries. Western colonialist will NEVER be welcomed in the mideast, whatever religion they may be. Zionism=murder and racism in the mideast - that's the reality that you've impressed on the region. You're deluded if you think you're any different to... more... - Taxi

GF, why did you move from GB to Israel? Was it a preference to live among Jews? Or religious? Or financial? Or what inspired you? - American

Thanks for that Taxi, Hasan Nasrallah couldn't have said it better. - Robert Werdine

Let him hang around Taxi---a chance to explore the zionist mind without gatekeepers. - American

American, I agree with you that a 1ss would be a recipe for eternal conflict to make today's look tame. If it were implemented the entire political and economic life in the state would come to a standstill, with everyone pursuing claims for this and that greivance and what not. I just don't hink it would work - Robert Werdine

A 2ss with all of WB and Gaza and E Jerusalem with a compensated resettlement, however imperfect, seems the only way to me. - Robert Werdine

Taxi makes me laugh. I'd love her to be in a room with the British racists who used to tell me also to "go home" so they could hear her saying the same thing now that I'm here. Who would win that shouting match? - GuiltyFeat from iPhone

Actually werdine, hassan nassrallah coulda said it a thousand times better than me - and more, he actually LIVED IT you freak! Nassrallah actually kicked your occupying asses right off lebanese land! He didn't just talk the talk, he frigging walked the walk all over your spineless backs! You're a real shithead calling yourself a 'shia'! I already made you eat the stinking shorts of THAT... more... - Taxi

Taxi is it your contention that no Palestinian has ever legally sold land to a Jew? Why? How do you feel about the Palestinians who would be willing to accept monetary compensation? - GuiltyFeat from iPhone

Shut it fg! Go to frigging sweden if you're bothered by racism in the uk! Your excuse for being a horrid little colonialist is stupid, just like your pseudonym! - Taxi

Not debating with you fg! NOTHING to debate - GIVE BACK WHAT YOU STOLE! And while you're at it, go talk to a REAL Palestinian about 'monetary compensation' - fucking swindlers! - Taxi

Sounds like someone forgot to take his meds this morning. Thanks, as ever, for that well-tempered reply. Maybe your potter friend from Bint J'Bail could come and tell us more about what he DOESN'T know about Lebanese in America? Like how my mother would havew been honor-killed by her family for marrying a German-American? Please. - Robert Werdine

Sounds like someone forgot to take their truth serum again werdine. - Taxi

Okay... back to some serious shit: I can't remember who posted this link on mw, but it's a must read: http://www.infowars.com/us-thin... - Taxi

Yes Robert and GF, you agree with problem of One state but for different reasons then I. I am on the Palestine side out of principle--human rights and law and ultimately justice. 'Perfect' Justice would be dissolving Israel as a nation and returning it all to Palestine. But there isn't likely to be any "perfect" justice. And as I said, creating 7 million refugees by dissolving Israel... more... - American

There are 7.2 million Palestinian refugees in the world today, American. Most israelis have dual passports. Do the maths. Don't reward the criminals or their children in even the smallest measure. http://al-awda.org/faq-ref... - Taxi

Taxi you're such a kook. Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right about everything. Do you have any practical suggestions for a solution that doesn't involve the forced repatriation of millions of people which I think you must know even in your angriest and rantiest moments is never going to happen. It doesn't matter if that would be the fairest solution, it's simply never going to occur. What else you got? - GuiltyFeat from iPhone

Shut yer trap fg! Which part of 'I ain't debating' do you not get. Your slimy reasons for being a colonialist disgust me. Fuck you and your one state and two state solution! You're the fucking problem! Just get out! That's the ONLY solution! Get out or get pushed out - by the outraged indignant victimized natives - and rightly so! - Taxi

Taxi, you're just an irrelevance. You have nothing to say and no practical suggestions. You're determined to be part of the problem while I want to be part of the solution. If I left Israel tomorrow, just as you suggest, how would that possibly change anything? You're just an angry child. All the righteous outrage and indignation isn't going to push out 7 million people. When you're ready to get real, come back and be civil, until then you're just noise. - GuiltyFeat

"Tree, you're just an irrelevance." (the original wording of the post, before gf edited) I don't see Tree posting here. Sounds like someone is confusing which board they posted that to. BTW, who just had an argument recently with Tree at MW (hint-hint-nudge-nudge-wink-wink)? ;) - mark e

American, you asked earlier about why I came to live in Israel and I want to try to answer. There are two aspects to my Zionism and it's something that I don't think is discussed enough. The first aspect is that I'm a religious Zionist. That means that I believe it is incumbent upon me to live my life as a Jew inside the biblical land of Israel. I would compare this to a Muslim taking... more... - GuiltyFeat

mark e, my bad. I have corrected my mistake. Thanks. If you're hinting that I have another pseudonym on MW, then I'm sorry to disappoint you. I don't. I was and remain GuiltyFeat. I am still banned over there. I have never asked for the ban to be removed and I have never opened another account. I still read MW fairly regularly. I don't know why I wrote Tree instead of Taxi. Apologies to both for any unintended insult. - GuiltyFeat

gf - "I'm a 42 year old modern orthodox Jew who was born and educated in the UK and who made aliyah in 1996." I don't think any one here is interested in learning about the specific events in the history of your excretory system's day to day functions (with the possible exception, perhaps, of werdine), irregardless of how notable you feel that specific 1996 event was for the world at large. I would advise providing your medical practitioner with that info instead. If you feel you are having a problem. - mark e

How delightful. A poop gag. I bet you're hilarious at dinner parties. Do you have anything useful to say or do you always just talk shit? - GuiltyFeat

fg this child will kick yer zionist ass all the way to the hague or back to golders green! Just look upthread at all your me me me me indulgent posts - you think anyone gives a shit what YOU want. Your entitlement complex is pathological and acute and a real real real bore! You were probably banned for vain tedium! Talking to you is like being stuck at a party with a boring boring self-centered drunk! - Taxi

O.K. GF your first or main motivation was religion, your other motivation was political. In your political motivation you are saying you were disadvantaged by being a Jew in other countries therefore you think you must live in or have a Jewish state in order to not be disadvantaged. So the quesiton is how were you disavantaged in GB which I am sure has the same religious and minority protections as the US and many other countries? - American

fg you deserve re-banning. Enjoy your bitterness bitch! - Taxi

American - sorry but I don't give an inch to disrespectful zionists. I don't know where you're going with your engagement with the freak fg, but let it roll budy, I'll let you take the floor - unless that scum addresses me again, i won't intrude on your pace of inquiry. - Taxi

American, as an observant Jew in the UK I was unable to fully participate in school activities such as sports or plays. I didn't want my children to have to choose between their religion and their social lives. As a university student I was disadvantaged by missing lectures that took place on days that I observed as religious holidays or that took place on Friday afternoons in the... more... - GuiltyFeat

GF, sounds like basically religious 'convience" re life style ,based on the fact Israel is politically and socially lawed and structured by Jewish religious rule in those areas. So the next question is .. what would you say to a Israeli Palestine Muslim who had similar complaints about Israeli Jewish customs that affect him such as holidays and etc. that you had about GB customs? - American

I would absolutely understand why an Israeli Muslim or a Muslim from any country might consider moving to an Islamic country for an easier religious life, just as I left the country of my birth and the adopted country of my parents to live here. I certainly would never advocate for that, but I totally empathize with the problems of being a religious minority. - GuiltyFeat

But GF.....You do realize that you would be telling a Muslim Palestine of Israel who was an original native of the land that to have the same conviences you have he would have to move from "his' land because the Jews wanted it and changed it for something as petty as Jewish convience. Why is it do you suppose that true ME Jews like those living in other Muslim countries like Iran don't seem to have enough of a convience problem to consider moving to Israel? - American

I'm not telling him anything. I was a native of England. I chose to move to a Jewish country for a more fulfilling religious life. I would understand why any other religious person might feel the same way, but I don't require them to feel the way I did and it's of no consequence to me if they don't. I understand the unfairness of imposing a Jewish state on non-Jews who lived here before it was a Jewish State. I don't have a solution for that. Do you? - GuiltyFeat

One other question GF, would you be just as satisfied living your religious life in a Jewish colony or country somewhere else? And do you require a nation to do that in?...for instance Quakers and others live strictly by their faith and mostly to themselves in their own communities within a lot of countries. - American

BTW GF, what do you do in Israel, what kind of work? - American

I work in marketing for a large American software company. I'm not really interested in the ghetto experience. I enjoy living in a diverse community living and working with people from different ethnicities and with different levels of religious observance. It breeds tolerance. I find that some of my Jewish friends in London and New York actually lead a more closed off life than I do... more... - GuiltyFeat from iPhone

Thousands of children in Palestine have died over the years just so fg can have her frigging sabath uninterrupted. The vanity of this is outrageous and clearly infanticidal. Sickening to the core! You should be banned not just from mw but from the whole civilized world you wretch! Coming here to troll and do your 'marketing' for an extra shekel or two are you? - Taxi

Taxi, honey, you are a person filled with hate. I am not. You would, given the opportunity, do me harm while I have never held a weapon or raised a hand in anger. You hold me personally responsible for the illegal action of my government and my army without the slightest sense of irony. You are aggressive and belligerent while I am calm and understanding. I want resolution while you... more... - GuiltyFeat from iPhone

American, I want to address something you mentioned earlier. You wrote about the true Middle East Jews. This is a bogus distinction for me. As a religious Jew I am commanded to live in the biblical land of Israel no matter how watered down you consider my bloodline. If I were a convert to Judaism, I would have the same obligation. Malcolm X writes in his biography of his surprise at... more... - GuiltyFeat from iPhone

shut the fuck up with your iphone banter you ethnic cleanser! I ain't reading your posts so don't bother trying to engage me. I know you're paid and you're here to make excuses for jewish war crimes against humanity and THAT'S why you're getting the boot in the face from me you filthy fucking real estate whore! - Taxi

How can you reconcile having a 'religious and spiritual' lifestyle with continuing acts of child-torture and infanticide in your name? Cuz Palestinian children aren't jewish it's okay by you? - Taxi

Taxi, sweetie, you are filled with hate. It boils out of you. You are asking me questions, but you don't want to hear my answers. You believe I am a non-person. I have no opinions that you are interested in. No experiences that you could ever identify with. Have a long look at the two of us and tell me who is more rabid. You said earlier that you would not engage with me further. You were lying. I am telling you now that I will no longer respond to your angry little trifles. I am not lying. - GuiltyFeat

Yes I do hate people who allow infanticide to take place just so that they can enjoy their freaking 'religious' lifestyle! You're like a fucking polite nazi around here and I don't buy it one bit! We've heard all your 'polite' excuses before - in fact you were frigging BANNED for them by a coupla other jewish guys! Where the fuck do you get your entitlement-complex from? God? You don't... more... - Taxi

O.K. GF...I'll tell you what I think from your answers. You said >>>1) "I would like the Jewish state to exist in some part of the biblical land of Israel. I don't need all of it. I don't care who has sovereignty over the parts I don't live in, but I want to live in a Jewish country where I am at no disadvantage being a practicing Jew. I don't want Rabbinic law to supersede civil law, I... more... - American

Whoa! I have no idea how you got there from what I said, but good luck to you. I think I clearly stated that it was of no consequence to me if a Jew or a Muslim chose to live as a religious minority in their country of birth. I meant their choice is no concern of mine. In discussing my "watered down bloodline" I was simply trying to counter the differentiation you made between one kind... more... - GuiltyFeat

"you contridicted yourself or lied because the Rabbincal law that makes your religious "convience" does supercede civil law and if it didn't that convience would not exist." If you consider it a rabbinic law rather than a civil one which defines the working week as Sunday through Thursday instead of Monday through Friday then I guess your logic holds, but it also exposes your narrowly... more... - GuiltyFeat

"Then it might be of consquence to you and not worth the convience of a Jewish country built on someone's else land." I have to ask you the same question I asked earlier. Is it possible that some parts of the country that is now called Israel were not stolen? Do you believe that no Jew has ever owned land legally either by inheritance or through legal purchase within the borders of the... more... - GuiltyFeat

What to do with the zionists? Put them in zoos? Caging animals is now starting to be seen as cruel, perhaps in the future, people will do away with caging animals up in zoos? That would leave a lot of empty cages. Rather than see them go to waste, why not put the freaks of humanity there on display for the entertainment of the masses? Ideal spot to dump that more incorrigible zionists.... more... - mark e

Wow, Mark, you really are a troll. Awesome. do you think there's room in your cage for zionists, nazis, corporate lawyers AND internet trolls with feeble imaginations and limited ability to engage in reasoned debate? I promise to help you out with some of the soy scraps as I imagine you haven't quite worked out a use for your opposable thumbs. Ya big dumb doofus. Let me know when you want to stop the ad hominems. Until then I'm done with you, troll. - GuiltyFeat

Just take a good look upthread fg - you're the 'narcissistic' racist troll not mark e. Nothing short of cluster bombs falling on your head would snap you outta your frigging zionist somnambulism! - Taxi

These hasbara nazis are so sensitive. It's not like the zoo cages would be like those in their torture chamber on Guantanamo, they would have heating, plenty of food and water and best of all, they would get to be the center of attention all day long and be housed among their own kind. - mark e

You know GF, I'm beginning to think Mark e and Taxi should co-edit a blog of their own, just like Phil and Adam. And I have a name for it: THE UNHINGED.COM. On this blog there will be no reasoned debate, and those engaging in civil discourse will be banned. Only hysterical ad-hominems of the Taxi variety, and the rancid, vulgar bathroom humor of the Mark e variety will clear moderation. - Robert Werdine

Oh yeah - and another thing about zionists: they are ALL so fucking BORING! Same shitheaded lies every single fucking day on and on the same boooooooooooring propaganda - no frigging sense of humor neither - everything is holocaust and misery and violins and a box of kleenex in yer pretty bored indifferent face. - Taxi

Is this where the "war of ideas" has landed? - Todd

Taxi - the zionist hasbara is so boring because there is nothing there but a faulty computer program that is getting overwhelmed by its own obsolescence. - mark e

Ah Taxi, how very good of you to share with us yet again the spirited spectacle of your table pounding tantrums, the red-faced fury of your rages, the sweet music of your shrill, shrieking screaming voice, and the eloquent vocabulary of your profanity. It does you credit. - Robert Werdine

GF....Just telling you what I see based on what you said. We all know how to say the reasonable things in a debate or conversation to keep it going and draw people in...BUT...we also can recognize when things said don't match the underlying "attitude" because the attitude does come through. You can say you 'don't need all of Palestine" and you can say you don't approve of certain things... more... - American

Werdine you aren't worthy of engaging with cuz you're a proven LIAR and have no credibility and you were banned from mw for incessant Nakba-denial to boot. A more suitable forum for werdine would be were all the holocaust deniers congregate - you have so much in common with them people. GF was banned cuz he specifically picked on Palestinian posters on mw calling them "low-grade... more... - Taxi

Is Hostage Joachim Martillo? http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2010... Hostage sounds a little -- no, a lot -- tamer than Martillo, who sets my teeth on edge, but he sure does have his facts (or ducks, h/t Bibi) in a row. - Landon

Is Netanyahu uniquely evil? Does the evil that Bibi expresses emerge from a systemic zionist matrix -- ie. zionism is evil & Bibi acts it out? Are there strains of zionism, some (ie. Jabotinsky militarism) being evil and others more benign? If so, how do both strands relate to biblical Judaism? - Landon

MRW, following some of the links on this discussion, yours from 2010 came up -- http://mondoweiss.net/2010... I think you've got some facts wrong. Zionists did not pay Nazis to allow German Jews to 'transfer' to Palestine; Nazis made a deal with zionists to ALLOW 60,000 German Jews AND THEIR WEALTH to transfer to Palestine. The... more... - Landon

also read Werdine's version of the Transfer Agreement. When someone mangles the facts as Werdine did (ie lies), you have to ask Why? What is he hiding? To braid this thought with the comment to MRW -- the deal the zionists made, according to Ed. Black, on the flyleaf, was "the Jewish-led boycott of German goods would cease in return for the transfer of German Jews to the Holy Land." No... more... - Landon

wondering if this is still active? - LovelyIsraelis

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