“Answered a call for my colleague who is away & asked if I could leave a message "No, thats okay, I'll call back on Monday ... but can you answer the phone? You sound nice."”
“As an outsider, it looks to me like politics and religion are inextricably linked in the US. Is this actually the case for the people that live and work there?”
For many people who go to Evangelical Churches, yes. (I went to one for more than a decade). They see it as their duty to get involved in politics to protect their world view. Particularly on things like abortion (which they view as murder equivilent with killing an adult). For those of us who aren't in churches, or who are in more non-political churches, no, it doesn't get linked. For me this is a frightening trend since many of our families moved here to get away from countries that have a strong political/religious tie (my wife was moved here from Iran for exactly that reason by her family). - Robert Scoble
Yes, very much so. Unfortunately living in this country that is supposed to embrace all religions, religion is a very big part of our government, which, by the Constitution should be separated. It's stupid really.... - Paula Hawk
You can tell that the politicians aren't willing to piss off religious folks because they always end their speeches with "God Bless America." The religious voting blocks are very important. Did you miss that CNN and both of the Presidential Candidates visited Saddleback Church for a little "conversation?" And Saddleback is a pretty laid back church with a very nice and intelligent pastor (I interviewed him earlier this year) compared with a church like the one I used to attend. - Robert Scoble
Look at the Palin videos from when she spoke at her church and you'll see the kind of ties that she sees between religion and politics. She calls things "God's will" like getting a pipeline or going to war. That kind of language was exactly what I heard in church every Sunday. - Robert Scoble
After he left office Tony Blair started to talk much more about his faith, and admitted that he hadn't done so while in office because he was worried that UK voters would think he was a whack-job. I always find this an interesting contrast to US politics. - Graeme Shaw
No, they're not inextricably linked. In fact, that was the whole point of "the American experiment". - Craig Eddy
Craig: really? Why does our money say "in God we trust?" Seems like religion plays a HUGE role in our politics. - Robert Scoble
That's my observation too, though I think it's similar all over the world - Mo Kargas
Haha! Goes to show you that there are many varying opinions on this! :) - Paula Hawk
Ahhh, OK, working without coffee, need to clarify my first comment - Christianity plays a huge part in our government - not all religion. :( - Paula Hawk
And if religion was not intertwined with politics, there would not be so many passionate debates about gay marriage and abortion. - Trish R
whoever says they're not linked is in denial. religion and politics are practically one in the same for a large population of the american public. let's be honest, folks - Cee Bee
Not at all. The reality is that religion plays a large part int he decisions of... the religious but is not deeply ingrained in our structures. Obviously religious folks will use those believes to make decisions like who to vote for or what to support - but every human makes decisions according to their belief systems. Its impact comes from these personal choices not from institutional power though obviously in a democracy all those individual choices do matter. - Soulhuntre via twhirl
There's a long history of intermingling religion and politics in America that dates to before the revolution. It's part of our national heritage. Read Bernard Bailyn's 'The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution' for a very good treatment of the subject. http://tinyurl.com/5f229t - Peter Simard
@Graeme It's very true, in the UK, politicians wouldn't touch religion with a barge pole. It does seem very different in the US, but that's just a feeling I get from the media. - Chris Nixon
I just find it interesting that our ancestors came here for religious freedom, yet religion plays such a key role in everything here. - Trish R
Soulhuntre - I won't deny that, but we are talking about politics here - all the politicians speak of God in some way, God's will, God bless America, etc - Remember all the hoopla because people thought Obama was Muslim? A non-Christian would never get voted into the Presidency in this day.... Perhaps one day but not today. - Paula Hawk
@Robert Scoble - even at its most extreme modern American churches have NOTHING like the power that those in many other places do - especially the middle east. While there IS concern here (I am an atheist myself) lets not confuse even the extremism of someone like Rev. Wright with hardcore Muslim honor stonings - for example. - Soulhuntre
Coming from the UK where they are less obviously linked (virtually separate) one of the things that struck me most about the US is how much they are interwined, especially from a Christian standpoint. People here view the US as one nation under (Christian) God, except that religious tolerance is probably less than any other country I have visited. A lot of my friends are nervous of Obama precisely because he is Muslim not a Christian, for me, faith is irrelevant - people are people wherever you go. - Sally Church
I agree with you, Trish R - that is why I called it stupid :) - Paula Hawk
Soulhuntre: true, we're far better off here than in Iran, for instance, but that doesn't mean we don't need to be vigilant. We've all seen what happens to societies that aren't vigilant against this kind of stuff. - Robert Scoble
Our money says In God we Trust, but we also have this separation of church and state in our roots, there to create an environment which is welcoming to all religions. Concern of many with the evangelical Christians is they believe the first part God we Trust trumps separation ... I don't - Lorraine Ball
@Paula Hawk - you might be right and while that is a bummer for me (again, I'm an atheist) the reality is that in a democracy the strong believes of a large group of citizens will have an impact. That is kind of the point of a democracy. The beauty is that in the US the constitution is a strong moderating influence. - Soulhuntre
Sally: Obama is a Christian and attended a Christian church. You do realize that, don't you? - Robert Scoble
@Trish R - don't forget they came her to be free to practice a religion - not to be free from religion. As an atheist I face no day to day persecution because I don't support a church. I am pretty much free to live as I want - and so are they. Religious freedom also includes the freedom to practice one. - Soulhuntre
So assuming they are linked...why are they linked? Is it because religious leaders want political power too, or is it because political leaders want religious funding and votes? Or both? Or something else? - Chris Nixon
In some elections more than others. 1976 was of course the huge year, but 1980 was big too. - Ontario Emperor via fftogo
Lorraine: it is true we have separation of church and state in our governing structures, which is good and is a huge part of why it's great to live here instead of, say, Iran where they are intermixed. But religion controls our public debate. Instead of discussing science, technology, innovation, and education we talk about whether a candidate is for or against abortion way too often. That hurts us as a nation overall in a big way. - Robert Scoble
@Robert Scoble - absolutely. Vigilance is called for and for the most part well entrenched, as an example legal challenges to most church / state violations often come swiftly and almost always work out the right way. I keep one wary eye on it all the time - but in general we do well here. - Soulhuntre
Chris: it's intermixed because of all those factors. Funding is a HUGE part of it (that's why politicians visited our local church, which was a pretty rich one in San Jose). It's also part of our culture. Many of us, when we get together with friends and family, would rather talk about stuff that interests us than more important "heady" issues like how to get a better educational system. Journalists even cover those issues a lot more because they know it leads to more traffic/sales of media. - Robert Scoble
@Chris Nixon - it is because many, many voters are deeply religious. Since they do vote - they get to have a large impact. That is democracy for you... voters having an impact. - Soulhuntre
@Robert Scoble - I think these questions head of large political debates because as a nation we don't expect science to be the governments thing... we almost always get much better innovation, science and advancement from our private sector. Thus issues of constitutional law and defense and taxes will always dominate the presidential debates because for the most part those are the things we depend on the fed for. - Soulhuntre
When I lived in the US I got the impression religion was used as a way of suporting / driving political agendas rather than from any religious sentiment per se. Rendering unto caesar (and mammon) what is God's as it were. - Broadstuff via Alert Thingy
In America, religion and politics are strongly linked, but not inextricably. The strength of religious political organizations waxes and wanes inversely with uncertainty. While some hold to religion for it's uplifting of the sanctity of life, others are driven away from it by stubborn positions on Creationism. Time and education may do for religion in America what it did for geocentrism everywhere. Ptolemy's view of the Earth as the center of the universe was pretty and easy to believe - it was just wrong. - Phil Yanov
FREEDOM of religion as what is important.. you can believe what you want as long as it doesn't affect me, and i can believe whatever i want as long as it doesn't hinder your religious freedom... religion = man's bastardization of faith - paisley via twhirl
"Protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will." -- @Robert - any guesses who said this? Any different than Palin's videos? If any, I'd say a bit stronger language and meaning, especially the part about "instrument of your will". - Ron Emrick
@Paisley Love the bastardization of faith line! - Chris Nixon
Paula, Robert: Yes I did, but get exasperated trying to explain that one to friends here and send them links to no avail. I don't know where they got the idea from, unless they made a bigoted judgment about the name. Should have put ' ' round Muslim for clarity. - Sally Church
When I started this conversation I thought that some evangelist leaders involved themselves in politics to show their political strength, after this chat I leaning more towards 'politicians will say what it takes to get elected'. - Chris Nixon
Well, yes and no - the religious constituency has a stranglehold on American politicians because they actually go out and vote en masse. Unfortunately, many others don't. We are all driven to look for someone with the same belief system that we have; however with a country as vast asa ours, esp. with the large rural and suburban populations that are disproportionately religious, that belief system tends toward the religion for many. It's too large a constituency to ignore. I wish it were otherwise - Your belief system can be in line with an agnostic or an atheist if you look at the real issues. But for some, belief in god trumps all else. - Lorita (Ba) Vannah via twhirl
It's interesting that in the UK there is no official separation of church and state - the Queen is the head of state, and also the head of the Church of England, until July this year Christianity was the only religion that had a legal protection from blasphemy - but in practice religion plays almost no role in the politics and governance of the UK. In contrast, church and state in the US are officially separate, but in practice religious issues seem to dominate political debate. - Graeme Shaw
I should also point out that a christian minister in the UK is rarely going to touch on party politics. This will only piss off half the congregation. They tend to partake in non-partisan 'issue politics' but nothing more. - Chris Nixon
@Chris Nixon - if a politician in a democracy wants to get votes he needs to convince those holding the votes he will act in their interests. That is the same world over. - Soulhuntre
That may have sounded arrogant...it wasn't meant to. Just highlighting a difference as I see it. - Chris Nixon
It didn't at all. The thing is, it IS the same. Whether a politician is promoting his religeous views or promising to cut the work week to 4 days he is doign the same thing - trying to show voters that they can count on him on the issues they care about. This is no different in Europe. - Soulhuntre via twhirl
@Chris We have a large amount of religious extremists in the us (something like 30% iirc). If you don't pretend to believe in god you can't get elected to higher office in many cases due to the very even split between our right and left wings. this being said, most politicians just pander to religion without actually working to support their causes. - Sam Levine
Well, sadly they are connected, though I don't think they should be. Too many believe this is a Christian government. It is not. Yes, a large % of the populace is Christian and there are *some* balances. Yet, I fear that the future could be in proselytizing and conversion to enact change instead of campaigning on the issues. - AJ Kohn
graeme: Don't forget that the Church of England has a contingent of bishops in the House of Lords (the UK equivalent of the Senate, sort of). - Roberto Bonini
I think religion (both personal faith and the organized group activities that support that faith) *does* and *should* play a role in politics. One's worldview and values should influence how one votes and how one seeks to shape the society we live in. This doesn't preclude a belief in religious freedom and the right to choose. In fact, Christianity has a strong belief in personal free-will -- God gave you the freedom to make your own decisions! - Elliott Ng
Obama is the first Democratic candidate in recent history to be truly proud of his faith and to speak of it in a way that connects with people of faith. This could be a turning point for the Dems to reengage in how faith leads to the policy positions that Dems have -- anti-poverty, social justice, engagement with the World, etc. - Elliott Ng
God is an American. That is why we are winning the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war in Iraq, and why we have national healthcare, a strong dollar, a balanced budget, and neutral balance of trade, no death penalty, and so few citizens in the prison-industrial complex... - Steve Follmer via twhirl
there's constant interplay between religion and politics. they're linked because of how we view the nature of our laws. the constitution is said to embody a law that transcends the people elected to lead the government. this notion of transcendent law is itself a sort of religious view of where the law comes from - that there are rights and obligations that arise apart from the government and society. this creates a sort of civic religion that is often expressed - for better or worse - in sectarian terms. - Derek Karchner
unfortunately that is the case... voting based on one's religious beliefs is one thing but many appear to want religion to play a part in state policy, something that is prohibited under the Constitution... for some reason, people just can't accept that - Shawn Duffy via twhirl
The big story: .Judeo-Christian fascism in contemporary American politics [topics] Abrahamic cults, AIPAC, Chabad-Lubavitch, Christian Armageddonism, Christian Zionism, Clash of Civilizations, CUFI (Christians United for Israel), George W. Bush, Global War on Terror, Jerusalem, John Hagee, Joseph Lieberman, Judeo-Christian fascism, neoconservatism, Noachide Laws, Old Testament cultism, religious Zionism, Third Temple, World War IV, Zionism - Sean McBride
Bush + his Brainwashed Flock are thee Scariest Clowns on the Planet! I can't believe how Idiotic Religious Taliban-like Fundamentalism has Gripped America!! Completely Insane* Separation of Church + State is a Faded Memory* + Jerry Falwell Control the Supreme Court + take away People's Right to Choice! U Don't base Laws on Phony Religious Beliefs - Keep dat Crap in da Closet* It's 2008 People Wake Up! READ Richard Dawkins God Delusion + Hitchens god is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything!! Peace* - Billy Warhol
God is an American. That is why we are winning the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war in Iraq, and why we have national healthcare, a strong dollar, a balanced budget, and neutral balance of trade, no death penalty, and so few citizens in the prison-industrial complex... - Steve Follmer via twhirl
God is an American. That is why we are winning the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war in Iraq, and why we have national healthcare, a strong dollar, a balanced budget, and neutral balance of trade, no death penalty, and so few citizens in the prison-industrial complex... - Steve Follmer via twhirl
Or as the Australians say "Bloody glad we got the convicts and they got the Puritans"... - Steve Follmer via twhirl
@Sam Levine - So you're saying that 30% of the people in the US will murder or commit acts of violence against those who don't believe because it is sanctioned by god? Or are you referring to born-again Christians and evangelists who see God as the most important part of their life and dedicate themselves to educating others about that? - Chris Mayer
To me they are very separate. Only in the 50's did religion become more closely tied in with politics here. McCarthyism got "In God We Trust" in as the country motto in direct response to fear about Communism. Separation of Church and State is a common debate in legal circles and a common rally point with evangelicals. Most like the separation. Extremists do not. - Jim Goldstein
every country has a tie-in between religion and politics , and the common denominator is belief in something unreal as real. - Gregory Lent
that might be a good idea if people can't be nice when they give their opinion. - Colide81
YES! I was just about to write the same post. Unfortunately it's only going to get worse from here. Generally speaking it would be great to be able to enter a set of keywords somewhere to make FF exclude all posts and comments that include them. - Richard Crocker
Good question. I picture a snake and the head is resting right on San Francisco, it's just a way lefty liberal way of life. If it all came out of the deep south, it would be a different story I think. - Mike Lewis
...most people in that space seem to be early adopters; open to the dissemination of information and change. Things that seem to line up with what I feel are qualities of the Democratic side of the political scale. - JA Castillo
Right, JA. Conservative = status quo. Social media = new, early adoption, change. - Matthew Davidson via twhirl
Maybe as Stephen Colbert said, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Glenn Batuyong
Mike's right I think - its the location. The problem is everyone is caught up in the "left vs. right," "us against them," "red state/blue state" b.s. - With all the collective intelligence here, I'd personally like to see some more substantial policy discussions instead of the "my politician can beat up your politician." <sigh> - Bill Sanders
@Matthew I'm not sure that's it. If so, then we should also slap the negatives of early adoption on Democrats as well, and I don't think that would be fair. - Shey
It's probably unfair to paint conservatives generally as 'closed minded;' It is reasonable, however, to draw a correlation between early adoption and a progressive mindset. Also, social media users tend to be young, I would guess, and young people tend to be more liberal, generally...if the target demographic of FF were 45-60 year olds, the conversation would probably skew more conservative. - Bren
Why should we stop and ask this? Does it effectively move forward the dialog about how we make America better? It seems only another way to divide and segment and create friction. NOT what this country needs. It's pure meta IMO. - AJ Kohn
liberal=loud; conservative=quiet. Social Media is the ultimate megaphone - Dave Wirsching via twhirl
Robert: thanks - keep it up, will watch the video and comment tonight. - Bill Sanders
Matthew's comment reflects a hideous bias. No reason that conservative ideology equates to anti-tech feelings. Much more likely that the bias is regional; City=Liberal, Rural=Conservative. Very little work for techies in the rural areas. California, for example, is vastly Republican by land area, but the cities (San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego) tilt the overall counts towards the Democrat side. Where are the better tech jobs, Bakersfield or San Jose? - Glen Campbell
I think it has to do, somewhat, with the geography of the most popular people we follow. They tend to be tech and be in Cali., the center of tech, right? or is it the forum. This ain't no AM radio talk show, huh. - Eric @ CS Techcast
@dave that's hot juicy bait if i ever saw it. - Geoff Schultz
I don't fit the typical FF user I guess. I'm 49, and quite libertarian in my views. I think that partisan politics generally has a negative effect - left or right. I always feel that policy is more important than any party line. - Ian May
Regretting getting sucked in but @Dave W: Stereotypes of any stripe are generally bad. Division is not what this country needs. That said ... Rush and the Evangelicals are quiet? It simply proves that the volume of your views isn't related to your position on the views. There's loud and quiet throughout the spectrum of views. - AJ Kohn
The Social Media space has lots of roots in the Bay Area, and it's also a fairly educated crowd: both of those are strong demographics for Democrats. I don't think it's a stranglehold; there are Republicans and independents, too. - Dan Ciruli
The social media space tends to be tech-savvy, and rooted in science. The right wing is more likely to deny evidence and eschew experimentation. It's only natural for those that value science to side politically with groups that feel the same way. - Jason Francis
So, let me get this straight. If I'm not pro-Democrat, then I must be dumb and uneducated. But if I am intelligent and educated, then I must be a Democrat. Good to know. I'll try to remember that in November. - Gregory Pittman via twhirl
Because social media is about hanging with your friends and friends tend to congregate around similar thinking individuals. I am on plenty of social nets that are more conservative than the ones others may have here. I think the real issue is why some folks have no red / no blue friends in their lists. Shows a lack of diversity in my book. - Andrew Leyden
@Gregory Pittman -- no, definitely not. But demographically speaking, the Bay Area (which is one of the geographic locations where Social Media is strong) is very democratic. And, on average, higher educated people are *more*likely* to be democratic. I'm definitely not implying that conservatives are dumb or uneducated. - Dan Ciruli
Is it really that surprising when the face of the GOP is John McCain? This is a man whose hostility towards the internet is legendary. - Matthew Davidson via twhirl
While I think that "location" is the explanation, we probably need to take a step back and wonder if our data is skewed. I spend very little time on the "Everyone" tab of FriendFeed, or the everyone stream in Twitter; for much of the social media community, U.S.-centric political definitions are irrelevant. - Ontario Emperor
In addition, the Ron Paul phenomenon should be taken into account. While Paul isn't really a Republican, he certainly isn't a Democrat. - Ontario Emperor
GO OBAMA!!!! :o) That McCain just scares the boo boo out of me, not trustworthy - Sheryl
Ron Paul is closer to what a Republican _should be_ compared to what the GOP has been offering. - Matthew Davidson via twhirl
Ron Paul has said more that I agree with than any other candidate. - Ian May
I'm just pro-Republicans and Democrats returning to the notions of good leadership and good stewardship. I think Dems talk that talk better right now. - Christopher Galtenberg
I think the answer is basically demographics - without looking at actual numbers right now, we can safely say that people who use social media are: more educated, more urban, and younger. These all correlate strongly with being a Democrat. Or we can just go with Glenn B.'s Cobert quote above. - Zachary Reiss-Davis
I'lI add that I also agreed with Ron Paul more than any other politician this cycle. That being said, you can't be an impartial american and be in favor of the current iteration of the GOP. That political party has been overrun by crooks, theives and liars who prey on the stupidity of the American people. Until the Ron Paul types, who stand for true GOP values, re-take the actual GOP, a vote for the GOP is vote for a fascist crook. The selection of Sarah Palin is an insult to the country. - JonathanJoseph
@Zachary Wow. "more educated, more urban, and younger. These all correlate strongly with being a Democrat." Personally I take a bit of offense to that. To slant that "more educated" = Democrat is a slap in the face to Republicans, or at least it should be. I think it has more to do with Democrats tending to be more vocal, especially in social media. Many conservatives tend to also be conservative in their interactive dialog. - Jeremy Hall
It's pure demo. Most early adopters are NYC,SF,LA...etc. - Erlend Wilhelmsen
This thursdy is my daughter's first kindergarten day. I'm insanely proud, and yet a little sad/scared at how fast she's growing. First few years people's "enjoy it, it goes fast" I'd be like "No, it could go faster actually". Now, her mental, physical and social growth is exponential and I wouldn't mind things slowing down some.... - Leif Hansen
I agree totally, usually that issue is on the top of my list, but I find the candidates stances on Iraq to be the most compelling issue at hand. It doesn't matter which side you're on more lives are will be effected by the President's stand on that issue than his stance on pro-life/pro-choice (barring a mass exodus of the Supreme Court) - David Knight
i'm not sure that many women would agree - Cee Bee
I disagree. If you don't value life at the beginning, why should you value life at any other age? - Stephen Shores
That's *always* an important issue, despite what else is going on in the world. Sorry. - David Cook via twhirl
There might be more important issues - Iraq being one - but the abortion issue is important to me. 1) I have a uterus. 2) "Pro-life" is a fairly good indicator of a candidate's other values, usually diametrically opposed to mine. - Marci Maleski
Being Pro Choice is a big deal for me. - orionstarr
Being anti-back alley days, it's always a big deal to me. - Michael W. May via twhirl
I don't like the term "pro-life" for people who oppose abortion. They are not pro women's life. I wish the media would change that to "anti-abortion." - Trish R
It's sad that THIS issue is what defines so much of political thought. I wish we argued about science, energy, and technology policies instead. But I'm a dreamer. - Robert Scoble
Trish the same could said about pro-choice not being pro what the baby would choose. They are both valid terms from the point of view of the one holding them - David Knight
Trish: those who control language control how the game is played. - Robert Scoble
I could care less about political conventions. Watching people who only care about their own interests, oh and their donors, is tedious. The crowd clapping like seals is too much for me. - Jonathon
Although the abortion debate is important to me, my read is that the situation is gridlocked enough that there will be no movement on it in the next several years; I figure the next two terms at least. I think it's more important to get us onto a different energy source. I dream about a "hero project" to get us onto something like hydrogen. So many problems could be cleared up if we had cheap limitless energy. - Justin Long
How can you be "Pro-life" but then send human beings into war to get killed? How can you let genocide go on in modern times? Let's ask the republicans. - orionstarr
Justin: yeah, while we're spending our time arguing religious debates Germany is subsidizing solar. I just met a German who has solar panels on his house -- all subsidized for 20 years. THAT is brilliant policy because it moves Germany away from its dependence on others for its energy needs. I wish we'd argue about how best to do that here than getting into religious debates that will never be solved because they are, well, religious debates. - Robert Scoble
There are many, many important issues, abortion per se being only one of those many issues. I'm more worried about people who think it's the *only* issue worth consideration when voting. Single-issue politics is fine for lobbyists and interests, but shouldn't determine one's vote. - steplow is Steve
As a woman, this issue is critical to me. As a political person, this issue (though important) is secondary to a few others (though I would not vote for any politician who stood against a woman's right to choose). To me, the most important issues in this election relate to quality of life for EVERYBODY. Jobs, healthcare, education, affordable housing, the environment and social security (especially with so many boomers entering retirement). I could care less about military interests. - melmcbride
Orion: part of the problem with that statement is that it assumes all Republicans march in lockstep with the policies of the current administration, when that is certainly not the case. - Justin Long
Honestly I assume republicans or most of them are "Pro-Life" why is that? - orionstarr
Yes, probably a majority are "pro-life." But that doesn't mean that they are pro-war or pro-genocide. Or unwilling to do something about either. - Justin Long
I see the abortion question as a part of a larger issue. Does a candidate support freedom or do they endorse control? Do they believe primarily in our freedoms and rights or do they view government as a means to impose beliefs and laws on the citizens? Are they committed to our Constitutional republic or will they lead us into a police state? -
