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Stephen Mack
PG&E installed a SmartMeter on our house last month. This month our electricity bill increased sharply. Did we really consume that much more electricity? (Granted, it's winter, but our heating is gas, not electric.) Lots of news reports about customers complaining about the accuracy of SmartMeters. Do you have one? Do you think it's accurate? - http://www.pge.com/smartmeter/
PG&E installed a SmartMeter on our house last month. This month our electricity bill increased sharply. Did we really consume that much more electricity? (Granted, it's winter, but our heating is gas, not electric.) Lots of news reports about customers complaining about the accuracy of SmartMeters. Do you have one? Do you think it's accurate?
I called PG&E and they say since my usage is in line with last year, they think it's accurate. I still want an audit. - Stephen Mack from Bookmarklet
We had one installed, and our bill almost doubled. It was our gas usage though that changed, is that monitored by the smart meter as well? - Georgia
Wow! After almost 3 years on temporary electric (where they guessed our usage) we just got one of these installed. We haven't been billed on it yet, but I had no idea there were problems. - Anika
Georgia, it can be either gas or electric or both. Looks like ours is both. Anika, here's one sample news story about the complaints: http://www.mercurynews.com/valley... - Stephen Mack
Thanks, Stephen. Here's our new meter: http://www.flickr.com/photos... Is it the same thing? I'm in LA currently covered by LADWP. - Anika
Yup, that's the "smart" one... Watch your bill closely! - Stephen Mack
I just now opened the letter from PG&E saying our SmartMeter will be installed within the next several weeks! I have been following the stories so I am a bit concerned. - Anne Bouey
Now that I think about it, it's kinda ridiculous to think our gas usage would double in one month. I know November was cold, but that just seems crazy! - Georgia
I just got one, and my bill shot up too :( - Jonathan Disher
I don't yet have my promised NotSoSmartMeter and my bill spiked, also. Much more than last year. Maybe it was colder? - Steve
Stephen, I have my old analog meter and my bill went up sharply too. My energy consumption is about what it was last year though. You have to take into account the fact that you use you use your lights for more hours per day in the winter. If you have forced air heating, your blower actually uses quite a bit of electricity. - Jeff P. Henderson
I don't know, but i have heard that the old meters tend to be less and less accurate over the years in the favor of the homeowner so when they are replaced the more accurate metering makes for higher rates. I really don't know if that is right or not though. - Rachel Lea Fox
Bumping this. I need more data points -- if you have a smart meter, how have you seen your bill change? Does it show dramatically different year-over-year usage? - Stephen Mack
Got mine last month, my bill actually went down ~30%. - Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)
Stephen: Did the measured usage of kilowatt hours change? Or just the $$ charged? Aren't there Time Of Use features in the new meters that could make the $$$ go up or down without the total usage changing? - Brian Johns
I have not got my new smart meter yet, but I can tell you my energy bill goes up dramatically in December and January, the two coldest and the two darkest months of they year. We are also home more due to the holidays and adding to it, I have been home all day for the past couple of months. My year over year electricity and gas usage are pretty consistant. My PG&E bill can fluctuate from a low of ~$125/month in the summer to as high as $525/month in December/January. A majority of that is electricity. - Jeff P. Henderson
There do seem to be a lot of factors. I've been less concerned because my own bills came down a month after I posted. :) I'd still like to see some good studies proving these meters are well-made and accurate, however. Davis, sorry to hear about the spike. - Stephen Mack
OK, I gotta ask the question from my now-dusty EE background: Do the smart meters record both the real and imaginary component of power consumption? Historically metering systems for home use were designed to read the real component of the power - resistive loads like heating coils, incandescent lights, the filaments in the tubes of your new-fangled TV etc. Systems with e.g. switching... more... - David Lounsbury
We've had ours installed for at least four months (both gas and electric) and my bill has actually gone down during that time period. My parents got theirs installed two months ago and they've seen little to no change in their monthly usage/charges. - Hookuh Tinypants
Otto, that's entirely too reasonable and doesn't favor ME. - Stephen Mack
LOL @Otto - Anthony Citrano
AJ Batac
Disk Space Fan - Manage disk space with art - http://www.diskspacefan.com/
Disk Space Fan - Manage disk space with art
"Disk Space Fan is a freeware and it is a nice disk space analysis tool for Windows. It helps you to free up disk space by quickly finding and deleting big, useless files. It displays disk space usage with a nice chart. You can navigate the folders easily with the chart. It is also intergrated with Windows Explorer to open, delete and browse files or folders." - AJ Batac from Bookmarklet
Hmm.. Reminds me something? (http://www.daisydiskapp.com) - Özkan Altuner
Pretty but barely readable? - LANjackal
Steven Perez
Riomaggiore on Flickr - Photo Sharing! - http://www.flickr.com/photos...
Riomaggiore on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
"Riomaggiore is one of the 5 little coastal villages of Cinque Terre national park in northern Italy. The park has a marine protected area and many trails in the mountains, nice places for swimming, snorkeling, scuba diving, mountain hiking and biking. There's a lot of vineyards in the area so it's a fun place for wine. One of the nicest things is a walking path on the cliffs along the water that connects the five villages (9km from the first to the last). Anyone that goes there with a camera will feel like a kid in a candy store!" - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet
I love the Cinque Terre. I think that's my favorite part of Italy (but I haven't visited the south yet). - Eivind
RAPatton
The Most Self-Explanatory Painting In Human History - Batman - io9 - http://io9.com/5492977...
The Most Self-Explanatory Painting In Human History - Batman - io9
"It's Batman. With a lightsaber. Fighting a shark. Don't ask why this is happening." - RAPatton from Bookmarklet
That would be perfect in the bathroom. - Anika
Batman doesn't jump the shark, he kills it with a lightsaber. - Brian Chang
joshua schachter
i wonder why everyone think friendfeed's tech is going to magically work at facebook's scale
We use scalable magic ;) - Paul Buchheit
I wonder who this "everyone" is. - Edward Coffey
It may... - AbZ
Because it's python...from friendfeed import scaling - Dave Dash
I would wager that guys who built GMail, Google Maps have an equal if not better shot at working on Facebook scale than anyone else. - Space Cowboy
....:::::::||||:::::::.... Pixie dust! - Susan Beebe from BuddyFeed
Dave, where can I get that module? :-) - Ruchira S. Datta
be patient have faith in the FF12 - Thomas Power
Looks like this was a self-fulfilling prophecy. :) - Space Cowboy
For those at Google that is, not FB ~ lol Space Cowboy, I'm glad I can inspire people through my amazing bio - sofarsoShawn
@sofarsoShawn - on an unrelated note, my screen name (on FriendFeed) is based on my favourite cartoon character in that awesome movie - "Happy Feet". Now only if Friendfeed wouldn't bump this very irrelevant comment to the very top of all of Joshua's subscribers. :) - Space Cowboy
WoW I even inspired the creators of Happy Feet, I"m just unstoppable!!! :) - sofarsoShawn
Ken Sheppardson
Lets get a count of active FriendFeed users: 219 unique users have either Liked or commented on this entry as of 09:50 PDT 03/20/10
1 - Akiva
2 :-) ... but don't worry about the sequence. I've got a little script that looks at the item via the API and I'll keep a unique user count in the body of the itme. - Ken Sheppardson
3 - Bruce Lewis from fftogo
4 - AJ Batac
5 - manielse (Mark Nielsen) - manielse (Mark Nielsen)
7 - Damn FF being slow :P - Juan Pablo González
8 :) - Joe Bonner
9 - ebru
Ok I'll go with 9 oops 10 - comix aka martha
13 - Amit Patel
16 - Rochelle
18? Gah... 19 - Jenthemum
23, the number of Jordan, baby! - Mike Nayyar
24 (DY-Kiefer-P!) - Micah
28 - adf
30 - RAPatton from iPhone
32 (although I was sure I posted at 30) - Nathalie
33 - Patrick from twhirl
34 ... though ... if they don't fix the lag.... this will probably not be posted till the counter is up to 50 - Ed Millard
35 - Paulette
38 - - SAM
Don't worry too much about getting the number sequence right. I've got a little script that just looks at the item via the API and gets the proper count. - Ken Sheppardson
42! I win! Edit: gah, no, I lose, Haggis wins. 43 - Stephen Mack from iPhone
44? - Derrick
47 I think. - Kol Tregaskes
The FF Census? lol - Ken Gidley
Caroline: Eventually it could get a good approximation of everybody who wants to be counted, but more importantly I just sorta thought it might be fun, you know? - Ken Sheppardson
Likes would be the best measure, but this should have been cross-posted to some large groups. (Oh, I see you have a script.) - Vezquex
It's over 9000! - no name
If you could get the Turkish and Persian users in this thread, the count would jump up tremendously. - Akiva
Well, if we get one or two bilingual folks to notice it, it might have a chance. If it gets rolling, I might have to pull out some of the comment/like timestamp info, dig in with the API and generate a little report. A little weekend science project. - Ken Sheppardson
Let's be sure to report back to MG and Arrington... - Thom Kennon
Still using FF :) - Hilary Talbot
im still using FF as well. - Chris Jackson
Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaawww - Johnny
Great googly moogly! - Scoble, Alex Scoble
[54] Are there really that few of us? - Skyler Call
You guys need to go spend some time in the Everyone tab. There are a TON of people over there. - Rochelle
[55] Dan (NEW USER) --> http://friendfeed.com/mdpatri... - Micah
42 was taken. - Courtney Engle
58 Huzzah! - Tony C
slept in - tony bland
woke up - Charles LePage
wazzup! - Loc
Do I have to? - Shey
number? - Ashish
59 ~ I still be here down here somewhere -/ - Chris Loft
I - iTad
I'll comment durnkely on it - iTad
roll call :) lost count! - mandyvan
Still here - Alex Scrivener
I want buzz to be good but there's still more interesting stuff here than there. I'm trying to use buzz more because that's the most likely end point for the ff experience. - Hayes Haugen
YO! - imabonehead
something over 60+ - chaz2b
I'm not joking, and don't call me shirley. - mikepk
+1 - TrafficBug
I'm awake! - Technogran
Interesting, that's more people than I see actively posting in my Buzz feed and I'm following 140 and have 300 following me there most of which are here also. - Jeff P. Henderson
FRIENDFEED IS DEAD?? BRAAAAAAAIINNNNNNSSSSSS!!!!! - Big Joe Silence
hi - mjc
Active? Try posting this in Turkish. - Louis Gray
嘿! - 老巫
I'm here, representing the Netherlands (on my own :-(). - Ton Zijp
Hımm, something 60+ :) - çağrı akyurt
May the schwartz be with you! - Majento
Aye, aye - Iván Abrego
Don't count, let the names count for you. - ILLA
Come on folks, we can hit 200! - Ken Sheppardson
I wonder if it would be possible to figure this out more efficiently using the FriendFeed API or something? - Rahsheen
Well, http://www.ffholic.com sorta does that, Rahsheen. For example, it says you're the ~350th or so most active user, and I'm the ~2000th, so one could sort of extrapolate from those sorts of stats. - Ken Sheppardson
Still visit every day. - Patrick Jordan
206? That's it? I mean, I understand we're likely not going to get many non-English respondents, but 206? - Ken Sheppardson
Ken, you'll recall that not everyone with hands participated in Hands Across America. - Micah
Ken that's about 26% of those who are subscribed to you. What would be interesting to do is go to each of their accounts and see how many of your 785 subscribers are actually active, i.e. have they made a native posting here recently, have they commented on anyone's post recently. I'll bet you that a significant number of those who are following you are not actually active users. - Jeff P. Henderson
I don't think this method is very scientific, Ken! As you said above, you're the 2000th as far as activity. If you got a more active user, and/or one with lots of followers to post this same question, you would get different numbers. Also, the way you phrased this originally, you didn't ask people to share it, bump it, etc. - Laura Norvig
You all have made great points about what's wrong with the method, and I'll probably do a little write-up that addresses them and does some analysis of the results... but meanwhile... 209? Come on, if you see this, consider yourself an active FF user, but haven't liked or commented... why not? - Ken Sheppardson
I don't know if this was already mentioned, but remember that there are lots of non-English-speaking FFers not covered by this survey. There are also probably some people who just aren't in our circle. - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill) from fftogo
FriendFeed isn't a monolithic block of users. I think I only subscribe to one user that has commented on this thread. - Nick Lothian
Jason - FLEMING
172th like on this post for me. - Zu from AOD
zzzz..... - Libraryman
Mitchell Tsai
Striving to Map the Shape-Shifting Net [John Markoff, New York Times - 3/1/10] - http://www.nytimes.com/2010...
Striving to Map the Shape-Shifting Net [John Markoff, New York Times - 3/1/10]
What is clear is that today a significant portion of Internet traffic does not flow through the backbone networks of giant Internet companies like AT&T and Level 3. Some of this traffic coursing through new channels passes through public peering points like Mr. Pozar’s. And some flows through so-called dark networks, private channels created to move information more cheaply and efficiently within a business or any kind of organization. For instance, Google has privately built such a network so that video and search data need not pass through so many points to get to customers. - Mitchell Tsai from Bookmarklet
“When we started releasing data publicly, we measured it in petabytes of traffic,” said Doug Webster, a Cisco Systems market executive who is responsible for an annual report by the firm that charts changes in the Internet. “Then a couple of years ago we had to start measuring them in zettabytes, and now we’re measuring them in what we call yottabytes.” One petabyte is equivalent to one... more... - Mitchell Tsai
“The Internet as we know it is pretty much vanishing, in the sense that much of the traffic is being routed through lots of new layers and applications, much of it wireless,” said Dr. Barabási, a physicist who is now the director of Northeastern University’s Center for Network Science. - Mitchell Tsai
Thanks for posting this Mitchell! Fascinating! - Melanie Reed
Melanie - Glad you liked the article... - Mitchell Tsai
Interesting article! - TrafficBug
Anne Bouey
Secret Society for Creative Philanthropy - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin...
Secret Society for Creative Philanthropy
"Giving away free umbrellas in the middle of a rainstorm is not that easy. David Ibnale had no idea how tough it would be to give away umbrellas on Market Street the other day. He figured that he and his free umbrellas were going to change the world. The world had other ideas. "People thought there was something fishy about it," Ibnale said. "There wasn't. It was just free umbrellas." Ibnale was one of a dozen people in San Francisco who had been given $100 by a startup charity that is trying to get strangers to start doing nice things for other strangers. It's a novel concept. Most folks, it turns out, aren't prepared for it. "What's the catch?" a man asked. No catch, replied Ibnale. Take an umbrella. You're getting wet. "No, thanks," the man answered, and kept walking through the rain. Ibnale began keeping count. He asked 27 wet people if they would like to have an umbrella. Seventeen of them said no." - Anne Bouey from Bookmarklet
"Altruism is something of a novelty these days, and most people have little time to partake. But altruism is the whole idea behind the new charity, called the Secret Society for Creative Philanthropy. It's the brainchild of Courtney Martin, a South of Market writer who dreamed up the idea four years ago in New York and has handed out a stack of her own $100 bills every year to select... more... - Anne Bouey
I love this. Ibnale, should have contacted me and I would have told him that giving away umbrellas on rainy days would be met with suspicion. I did this project for an Anthropology class eons ago. No matter what part of LA we went to, people eyed us with suspicion. We did one experiment with umbrellas, one with food and one with drinks on a hot day. People seem to only like free stuff... more... - Anika
This is very common, even in philanthropy. Some of the best charitable foundations find that even though non profits are asking and even competing for their money, that money is more valued and therefore used better if there is some kind of cost attached to it. I don't mean a monetary cost, but more like a cost of time or needing to do something. If they "earned" the money they often... more... - Rachel Lea Fox
Interesting experiences you've both had, Anika and Rachel. - Anne Bouey
"One hundred dollars is not going to change anyone's life," Martin said. "It's a small thing. The money is just a framework for people to use their imagination. It's like a kick in the ass." ... Interesting closing statement lol. - Mona Nomura
Zee.
wow. So there are plenty of friendfeed devotees still using Friendfeed in spite of Buzz's launch?
Why downgrade? Logos are nice, community and features mean more - Johnny
Not me, Nope. I'm not using friend feed at all, .... Nope .... Not even. - Brent - Yes I am
i'm with johnny, buzz just isn't there ... yet ... i have high hopes, but we'll see... time will tell, and at this time friendfeed is still the best - Chris Heath
Buzz is next to useless for me. When it can match FF's functionality and community AND FF no longer exists, I'll think about switching. - Jim: with more caffeine!
Buzz is great and has a lot of potential, especially its large user base - but I think Friendfeed does it all - and better. - Chris Loft
Buzz, not so buzzworthy right now. Friendfeed actually works and works well. - Eric - Poppa Large from iPhone
Of course there are, Zee. Not everyone is as completely high on hype and low on loyalty/sense of community as most tech journalists are. - LANjackal
i'm very interested to see google's solution to the spam problem... friendfeed does alright with the current system, but google will have to automate it like in gmail - Chris Heath
I don't really want to hate on buzz, because I'm a big fan of many of google's other projects, but it wasn't/isn't ready for prime time. Some say it was brave and innovative to release it (non-beta) now; I just think it was foolish. As Paul Buchheit posted last week, "if your product is good it doesn't need to be great," but Buzz isn't even that good. - Jim: with more caffeine!
i really don't like Buzz. - Big Joe Silence
jim, it was actually, "if your product is great, it doesn't need to be good" but yeah the point is basically the same, i guess - Chris Heath
Accept no imitations, especially cheap inferior ones. - April Russo
"Plenty" is relative. Fairly sure that it's a rounding error compared to the Google Buzz user base. - Vezquex
FOAF, savable advanced searches, groups, feeds, best-of-day are all features i love and only find on FF - Chris Hofmann
Of course. Buzz has some potential, but FF is still the far better service for me. - John (bird whisperer)
Of course! Never stop. I will be the last one using it. - Louis Gray
Buzz doesn't have 1/100th of the activity, even though I'm subscribed to roughly the same # of people. - Christopher Galtenberg
I'm using both. If you want 24/7 discussion about Buzzes features and function go to Buzz. If you want to talk about something interesting, you can do that right here. - Jeff P. Henderson
I was just going to say Yup - but Jeff, you hit it on the head. - Mary B: #TeamMonique
Still here and having fun with the other folks who have stayed. Definitely checking out Buzz and watching it but they really need to fix tons of stuff. I'm hoping they'll figure it out as many that never tried FF or that have left are starting to use it so I can interact with them there which allows me to have my cake and eat it too by using both. - Mark Krynsky
FriendFeed is prettier to look at in my opinion. (typical woman, its all about the UI and its looks!) - Technogran
Is this a trick question, Zee? ;-) Sure, Google Buzz is not FriendFeed. Not yet anyway. But, personally, it's easily the best alternative. There are a few features that are missing and, of course, the community and the users (i.e. you guys) are not all over there but it seems that Buzz might be a new home *if* FriendFeed decides to depart this World. - Kol Tregaskes
The difference between them both is type of user. Friendfeed has only really caught on with certain types of users (dare I say Geeks?) whereas because Buzz is built into Gmail it hast the potential for a much larger user base of (dare I say it?) none Geeks. - Technogran
I've no compelling reason to switch from FriendFeed. My services are plugged into FF and work perfectly, as always, my shares get dumped into Twitter as they always did and FriendFeed continues to be a smart way to TwitLonger without going to Twitlonger. That's without all the other bells and whistles like Lists and Groups and so on. So I simply don't know what would bring me to Buzz at this time. Maybe in the future but at the moment it's still a rather anaemic FriendFeed. - JSLeFanu
Kevin Fox
If this graphic sends awesome chills down your spine, you might be an old time mac geek.
mac_picasso_logo_small.gif
Ah. Back in the days when you got a bona fide manual. And an audiocassette/floppy disc "tour" of your new Mac. - Spidra Webster
This is even Pre-System 7, isn't it? My first Mac ran 6.0.2. Some machines at school were Fat Macs with an internal Hyperdrive (10 Meg HD), running System 4.1 I believe. - DGentry
Dude, this is freakin' System 1.0. 1984 and all that. - Kevin Fox
Robert Scoble
The one search company most likely to get purchased by Microsoft to crush Google that I saw in Cambridge UK? PrismaStar.
Reasons for saying that? - Ahmed
Why? - Jim Connolly
why ? - Kashif Khan
"crush google", wow sounds interesting. - Rich Lazzara
I hope this is the same PrimaStar Robert is talking about - Ashish
Rich: Google crush sounds more interesting - like the name of a drink. - Jim Connolly
Why? You'll have to see our Building43 video to see why. :-) But let's just say they did the search technology for several camera stores and the conversion rate went WAY up. Why is that? Because they offer a new way of searching things that really rocks. I can't explain it in text. Gotta show it to you. - Robert Scoble
looking fwd to it - Rich Lazzara
Primestar's AnswerOil UIX is a good fit for #Bing's decision support platform, combined with shopping cart & checkout optimization products from www.allurent.com would yield further eCommerce results. - Alexander Ainslie
Robert: direct link to the building43 video? - James Kuypers
Several people asked which product categories we support -- here's a site that uses over 1000: http://translate.google.com/transla... - jzt
(on the right-hand side of that translated page are some samples...) - jzt
Also, Mark Essel: YES, we do support dynamic search/ads via keywords/tags. :) - jzt
Most likely to get purchased by Microsoft with the intent to crush Google, perhaps. But Microsoft intends a lot of things. Maybe they'll buy PrismaStar, then rebrand MSN, er, Live Search, er Bing, and the market will be less confused. - Andy Bakun
But Jessops the camera retailer is losing money: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money... - Jelly Roll Morton
Jessops has been losing money as long as anyone can remember, which is hardly Prismastar's fault. The point is though that Jessops has a very good search tool with Prismastar's AnswerOil and has seen a substantial increase in its conversion rates since adopting Prismastar's technology. It could be Answeroil which has kept them going this long (nobody would have expected them to still be around in late 2009 eighteen months ago) - John S Cameron
John, did Jessops really see a substantial increase in conversion rates? I respectfully suggest that this is not a fact. Can anyone actually verify this claim? It is on record that Jessops are still around because HSBC Bank saved them, rather than because of their business performance. - Jelly Roll Morton
Posting from another feed: here is the prior art that someone was looking for on Interconnected Sliders : they existed back in 2004 in the public domain - download this FLA file for free and build your own interconnected sliders: http://www.senocular.com/flash... - Jelly Roll Morton
Microsoft hooking up with Prismastar was a good idea. Time inc. felt the same way and purchased Stylefeeder a shopping selector. - Paul Baldovin
Hello again Mark, Comparing the Prismastar Product Selector to Jemms iBlick Finder would most depend on what the clients business requirements are. This is the way to determine which might be the best to use. Those that I've worked with would look at price, flexibility, timeline to full deployment and analytics. I would suggest any client in need of this kind of solution look at both... more... - Paul Baldovin
Why don’t any of these Prismastar affiliates work? - collectinstore.co.uk - offeroftheday.co.uk - prophotoinsights.net - digitalphotographyprojects.com - turkeyherald.com - vouchers-and-deals.com - mike townsend
Uh oh - it's true that Prismastar have failed to raise funding and have now closed their Cambridge, UK office, better luck predicting big things next time, Robert! - Jelly Roll Morton
Scoble's reputation as a prophet continues! ("crush Google" LOLing) - sofarsoShawn
whoops! LoL - Jelly Roll Morton
Dare Obasanjo
Google makes list of people you email frequently public. @louisgray calls people luddites and freaks for complaining - http://blog.louisgray.com/2010...
To be more accurate, I didn't call anybody freaks. :) - Louis Gray
They've changed the auto-follow behavior since the launch, Otto. Initially, one's follow relationships were automatically set up based on Gmail contacts (http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2010...) - Ken Sheppardson
Louis, you post was embraced and extended, that's all. - Micah
Sorry, hit the 140 character limit. It should be "privacy freaks". That said the level of Google apologism in your post was worrisome. Giving a company a pass in using our privacy as ammunition in a competitive war with other companies is setting a bad precendent. Just because YOU don't care who knows who you email with frequently doesn't mean it is OK for companies to share that with... more... - Dare Obasanjo
After 10 days of seeing dramatic fear in post after post with very little meat on it, it was, in my opinion, time for the counterargument. The news in the post was the option to opt out. The direction was that those who disliked Buzz or didn't trust it could now take that option. The rest was built-up frustration. I hate drama for drama's sake and think we should just use the best tools for any job. - Louis Gray
Most of those I am following and who follow me are actually NOT my Gmail contacts at all. And you are given the choice of using Buzz or not. And like Ken, I never got that either... - Technogran
Louis Gray
Google Lets Fearmongers and Unbelievers Opt Out of Buzz - http://blog.louisgray.com/2010...
Google Lets Fearmongers and Unbelievers Opt Out of Buzz
Louis- I am happy to embrace innovation, if I get to choose to embrace and don't have some wedding planner yelling how commitment phobic I am cos I don't want to embrace every damn girl at the dance :) - Pete : Team Marina
This girl is quite attractive, Pete. Date her and get to know her. It'll be a win for you. :) - Louis Gray
Louis- that's what you say :) Really, you have to trust me on this too ;) I really only use g-mail as a 'portable' e-mail; most people I care to know I don't have on there. Weird, I know, but there you are. And whilst I have a lot of time, it's not that much that I can invest in this right now. I sometimes wish google would go back to their original motto (to borrow Sandi Toksvig's line) 'find stuff on the internet' ;) - Pete : Team Marina
I like to fall in love, not arranged marriages - Johnny
Which is why they *have* to integrate Facebook Connect and enable users to port their Facebook and Twitter contacts into Buzz as Buzz contacts. (similar to how FriendFeed connects users) - Jesse Stay
I asked them about this on the Monday before launch, Jesse. That's when they told me they have 1,000 things they would like to do to improve. Whatever you and I can think of, they have thought of. (Mostly) It doesn't mean they will get to it all, or as fast as we want them to, but once they get around the initial hiccups, they will continue to add features. - Louis Gray
Slapped with the Perpetual Beta Fish! ;) - Pete : Team Marina
Louis, I know that, which is why I've laid off a bit in my criticism. I made my own frustrations known, now it's time to let them fix things in the priority they need to. They may not be ready to scale what adding Facebook or Twitter connections would do to them - remember how the size of your social graph grew when FriendFeed did this? - Jesse Stay
Jesse, I would assume Google has the capability to scale in technology. Not sure about humans. :) As for the graph growing when FF did it, maybe the #s went up, but the quality didn't. - Louis Gray
Even Google isn't immune to preparing their software to scale though. If it takes additional architecture, it could take additional time. - Jesse Stay
"Professionals leveraging free Web e-mail, which Gmail continues to be today, despite being exponentially better than its other free competitors, are getting what they pay for." See, that's the trouble with Free. "If I buy you dinner, you'd better put out." And you think you are the *progressive* thinker in this, Louis? Yeah, right. - Dawn
Ouch. Louis, I like you because you usually have light and polite tones - I'm sad and disappointed that this time you are so aggressive and sarcastic toward privacy-caring people. Google added more choice for their users, and that's good: more choice won't negatively impact Buzz's development, and I don't think I'm "a luddite" or a 6-years-old for stating this. - Opensource Obscure
they have WAY more than 1,000 things they NEED to do to improve Buzz. this thing is a mess. - Big Joe Silence
do they also let people opt out because the service is shite, and those that want to protect their privacy? Or just fearmongers and unbelievers? - sofarsoShawn
Opensource Obscure - Don't forget that you're also an "unbeliever". Don't question the all knowing, all powerful Google Gods! :) - Dawn
Amen, Louis. Apart from one few worst-case example in the press (valid one, but out of millions?), I didn't hear of another real problem. And they fixed it right away. I agree with the comments that being able to turn it off only improves it, but the way our country fears their own self-created data is just bizarre. Maybe the FF fans like us just get its value sooner?? - John Eich
Tyranny of the tech elite minority much Louis? - Tinfoil 2.0
WoW, I've never seen Louis Gee so bitter, biased, and unreasonable; I hope there's no problems at home.... - sofarsoShawn
SFSS: that's hardly a measured comment from you, either. Louis has made his position clear from the start about Buzz, and his views about online privacy in general are all over his posts. - WoH: Professor MOTHRA
Louis, with phrases like "head in the sand privacy-shrieking luddites" I don't know how you expect to be considered objective. Social networking services need to work for their users, not just for the shareholders looking to push the boundaries on the next business model. The vast majority of users are not very technical, and you do a disservice to them by assuming they have the same... more... - Tinfoil 2.0
Louis, you agreed to make all your email public, how is that going :-) - Todd Hoff
@WoH I should clarify rather. I meant in terms of how he characterized those opponents of Buzz throughout the article and hitting home in his conclusion, those are clearly bitter, biased, and unreasonable. My 2n part was j/k. of course. - sofarsoShawn
Privacy advocates don't want to strip away your rights to choose to be more public. Why do you ridicule their rights to choose to be less public? - Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx: ***** - ovigia
LogEx - the whole point of Google giving away stuff for free is that you will give them your online identity whenever and however they want it so that they can make money from it via advertising. It's the implicit arrangement. Like I said here last night, if you eat the guy's free dinner, you'd better be willing to put out. If you don't, you're the bad guy. - Dawn
Dawn, if there are enough people who are willing to put out to support the service, that's fine, (and if not, then the service shouldn't exist), but services shouldn't be forcing themselves on those who don't put out after dinner (I've politely refrained from putting that more bluntly). - Tinfoil 2.0
"Unbelievers" hahahah :) Which brings out the classic: Google Opt Out Feature Lets Users Protect Privacy By Moving To Remote Village http://www.youtube.com/watch... - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
My favouritest part of the post is how to opt out: "Want out of Buzz? Go to your GMail, click "Settings" and click "Buzz", and you can opt out." ~ DONE! & DONE! - sofarsoShawn
I'm with Louis. If you're really concerned about privacy then delete your Facebook account, you may also want to cut up all of your credit cards - certainly any 'rewards' card you have. Privacy - unfortunately - is only cared about by a vocal minority. Frankly, having Buzz tied to an email address might finally get more people to pay attention to privacy since people are finicky about... more... - AJ Kohn
I'm a little disappointed, Louis. Rather than just roll your eyes and dismiss people as "privacy-shrieking luddites" I would've hoped and expected you to use your platform to explain to people how the system works and *why* they shouldn't be concerned. It's not particularly constructive to just rant about how people don't get it and that they should essentially just have a more faith. - Ken Sheppardson
Ken, do we really need another article dissecting Buzz? Whether you agree with my position 100% or 50% or 20%, the fact is that the response to Buzz on privacy has been ridiculously overblown and people need to be realistic. I can walk through the benefits of the platform and tips some other time for sure. If you get FriendFeed, you get Buzz. They have work to do, but it's the best alternative so far. - Louis Gray
Except it's not as good as the thing it's an alternative to. But I agree, the launch gaffes and privacy settings will be worked out. Those who were spooked, are starting to lurk, so as the smoke clears we can start looking at what Google's done. (Launched a real-time ping server to feed their search algos) - Cliff Gerrish
Louis, just because it's a good technology doesn't excuse sweeping valid concerns (that potentially affect 150 million people) under the rug and ridiculing people who have made different trade-offs on publicity/privacy than you have (which is most of the population). Realistic? You must live in such an insulated and privileged world that you don't see the harms that can occur when personal information is forced public without properly informed consent of users. - Tinfoil 2.0
@LogEx, I wouldn't call it insulated and privileged. I am comfortable with the data that I create and the people I commiserate with. Glad to have you as part of that. I am ignoring the easy tease I could do about your FF profile being Tinfoil 2.0 and linking to Buzz. :) - Louis Gray
And I share what I'm comfortable with, within this context. But I don't assert that others should act as I do or are ridiculous if they don't. Tinfoil 2.0 means living with evolving technology without giving up rights and choices (unless you want to). - Tinfoil 2.0
& that's where I was disappointed and laid down my previous statement, the title in and of itself shows a considerable lack of understanding to those with privacy concerns. Louis you may be open with everything you share, but most people aren't comfortable with that. Put yourself in their shoes. - sofarsoShawn
I'm not talking about another post "dissecting Buzz", Louis. It's larger than Buzz. *WHY* is it "overblown"? Why do you think people shouldn't be concerned about exposing their social graph? I get it; I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'd humbly suggest *most* people react to changes like this the way they do because they don't understand them and (taken to the extreme) think that Google suddenly exposed the names and email addresses of everybody they know. You're in a position to talk them down. - Ken Sheppardson
Personally I think the whole thing is an emotionally over-charged battle, I can't seem to find many people who want to discuss ways to attack the issues or solve problems. The comments are a combination of facebook .. you rock!! to entire blog posts within a single comment. Buzz in GMail is confusing... more... - Chris Myles
Chris, it has been overcharged. The post was essentially answering back. I think the waving of the hands has been silly, and overdone. I assume, as the product stabilizes, you will see more instructional commentary from folks. - Louis Gray
I hope so.. maybe I'll come back when the dust settles. I get the feeling Google isn't ready and neither are the users. Unless something changes soon it's just a big waste of time. A fun mental exercise but very frustrating!! Let me know when the truce is in place. - Chris Myles
Dave Winer
Serious question -- why doesn't Google use the FriendFeed API for Buzz? Hopefully it's an open standard, if not, what would it take to make it one. Can't imagine the FF guys would object. It's a VERY nice API. Imho.
Because of Facebook? - RobertoC
I'm a big believer in using stuff that already works because it preserves developers' and users' investments. In this case, the lack of an accepted API means there are no clients that sort out the app in terms familiar to users. That hinders adoption. - Dave Winer
Agree completely Dave. It would be very very nice. - Roberto Bonini
FB Lawsuits? - sofarsoShawn
Roberto -- that's what would make it an open standard. Competitors are *supposed* to use the same formats and protocols if they care about users. Further, the second into the market, ie Google in this case, has everything to gain by being compatible with an existing product, and nothing to lose (other than the ability to say they invented the whole thing, which they clearly didn't). - Dave Winer
Why didn't Google <a href="http://rarepattern.com/nodes...">make Buzz into protocol so we could finally move into a P2P twitter-like paradigm</a>? - Laura Scott (@lauras)
Facebook. - AJ Batac
The NY Times and the WSJ and Washington Post all use HTML. - Dave Winer
I doubt Facebook would let them do that. - Kent
I doubt Facebook has any say in it. - Dave Winer
The FF API doesn't exactly fit PSHB though you could probably adapt it. I'm pretty sure Google started from the proposition Buzz would use PSHB. - Ed Millard
I agrre with you Dave, it would be great and everyone, also little startup gain from it. BUT have the company so big a so opened mentality? I doubt of it. - RobertoC
From FF API TOS: 4. Intellectual Property (Trademarks & Copyrights) FriendFeed, the FriendFeed logo and the FriendFeed design are trademarks or trade dress of FriendFeed, and may not be used without express written permission from FriendFeed, other than for attribution. ... FriendFeed-originated content included on the Site, such as text, graphics, logos, software and the compilation of... more... - Ed Millard
Google explains itself sort of in this Newsweek post "Why Google Will Keep Playing Fast and Loose With Your Privacy - they seem to fear a Russian prodigy who will win out" http://ff.im/g9eMg They thought they'd hit a gold mine with Buzz's format rather than using FF's (I'm hazarding). They had an itchy trigger finger and pulled it too soon and aimed wayyy off target. Simple as explanation really, they just thought they had something better. - sofarsoShawn
We may not have the power to make them do it, but we certainly have the power to put the question out there. - Dave Winer
From the FF TOS it appears FB can block Google from using it. - Ed Millard
Ed -- are you saying the quoted TOS segment covers the API implicitly? -- I don't see anything explicit there. - Brian Sullivan
If the API falls under "FriendFeed design" or "copyright" I think it is explicit. "design" is subject to interpretation, here it is maybe referring to web site design. The section about "FriendFeed-originated content" including "software" being copyright would almost certainly cover the API. Would probably have problems creating an API doc for it without violating copyright. - Ed Millard
To safely use the API you would almost certainly need to find legally binding licensing saying FF/FB placed it in the public domain. They did, I think, open source Tornado which is the Python HTTP engine, but that isn't really the actual API. Tornado is the part that directly overlaps with PSHB anyway so doubt Google is interested in it. - Ed Millard
DeWitt mentioned they didn't clone Twitter because of unclear licensing issues. When they are trying to release a product I'm sure they want to get the product out rather than block on licensing issues, which take pretty much forever to work out. - Todd Hoff
If FF hadn't been bought by FB, I'm sure they could have some to some sort of arrqangement. But the fundamental benefit of using an existing API is that any apps can immediately move to the new platform. - Roberto Bonini
And i think that "FriendFeed design" includes the API - Roberto Bonini
Roberto, not so sure since "design" is followed by "trademark and trade dress" which would only apply to visual and marketing elements. The copyright stuff further down is what nails the API. - Ed Millard
I wonder if Paul or Bret could chime in here. In either case, I'm betting that they'll have to defer to Zuckerberg. - Roberto Bonini
Its regrettable Google didn't buy FF instead of FB. If they were working on Buzz back then its obviously an acquisition that would have been of greater value to Google than FB. The FF talent seems to be the only thing FB got out of it. - Ed Millard
Oh definitely Ed. In fact, they could have put FF into Gmail without a whole lot of bother. - Roberto Bonini
Isn't what they are already doing in Buzz better? since they are using standards like Atom, Activity Streams, PubSubHubbub, oAuth etc. - Richard Cunningham
Richard, Buzz doesn't really have an API yet. Only has a really limited function to get public messages per user, a directory to get profiles and WebFinger support to get info off profiles. The actual API is apparently still a month or a few months from being available. Some have been hacking it to pry stuff out of it but its not really friendly to third party apps yet. I wish it had an API. I'd integrate it in to my feed reader cuz I can't stand Buzz prioritization and no comment collapse. - Ed Millard
Using all those open standards is commendable but I'm not sure its an easy path from those to a coherent design and API. You can see Paul's influence in the FF API, its really simple and elegant. It is way ahead of where Buzz is at the moment for third party access though hopefully google will get a real API out soon. - Ed Millard
Here is all Google has out for their API at the moment, http://code.google.com/apis... - Ed Millard
Ed, yes I know, I'm working on implementing it in FriendBinder, the main bit missing for me is the friend's list working properly and next would be some sort of write support - Richard Cunningham
My issue with PSHB is I don't want to have a web server sitting between Buzz and my client. PSHB seems to require a client to register and then you need a server URL for PSHB to call back. Seems to exclude clients from accessing Buzz unless they go through a server intermediary which is different than every other API I've used. With the FF API any client can connect to a server and get a stream, way simpler. Hopefully Google will add something like REST or Tornado in their official API. - Ed Millard
Ed, how about appending the events from PSHB to your own queue and then using a REST API to access it? The server-to-server nature of PSHB is inconvenient. - Todd Hoff
Todd, that requires me to field a PSHB hub of my own, or am I misunderstanding? Kind of a high bar for a client app to have to field a 24/7 server or you can't get to the Buzz stream. I'll just hope Google provides a real API for clients in coming months. The FF API/Tornado, and Twitter REST/Streaming API's are infinitely more client friendly, though Twitter obviously has the scaling problems PSHB is designed to address. - Ed Millard
Not sure what you mean by 'using FriendFeed API'. Do you mean reproduce a similar API, or connect to it? Both are efforts that need some developper time, and Google was in a hurry to prove that they could deliver a decent service. In the first case, it seems hard to copy one interface and make it suit a different social construct, harder than make a interface adapted to that social... more... - Bertil Hatt
Ed, I expect they will give a feed with all your friends in one feed, when they turn on oAuth. Then it will be the equivalent to what Twitter offer. - Richard Cunningham
Louis Gray had it decreed forbidden. - sofarsoShawn from iPhone
Alright now, Shawn. Troublemaker. :) - Louis Gray
Well sort of Ed. I was imagining Google App Engine as a queue endpoint for published events. - Todd Hoff
Ah, that's interesting to consider, I'll look in to that. Don't actually want to do REST, it sucks for real-time. Would rather have an open connection like Tornado, which brings us back to where Dave started this conversation about how nice it would be to have the FF API on Buzz :) - Ed Millard
Though the down side to FF/Tornado is you have to keep doing new HTTP requests since it closes the connection after it delivers data, and its not entirely clear how real-time the data actually is. Something like the new Twitter streaming API would be ideal where you just have an open connection and your stream arrives as close to real-time as is feasible. - Ed Millard
Steven Perez
Kevin Smith: The face of flying while fat | Broadsheet - Salon.com - http://salon.com/life...
Kevin Smith: The face of flying while fat  | Broadsheet - Salon.com
"Whenever the issue of whether larger people should be forced to buy two airline seats comes up -- as it did this weekend, when director Kevin Smith was booted from a Southwest Airlines flight, and as it did last April, after United introduced a policy practically identical to Southwest's -- the first and only thing a lot of folks think of is that time they had to sit next to a fat person on a flight, and it was so uncomfortable. Perhaps they even had the special misfortune of sitting next to a rude fat person, the kind who doesn't even seem contrite about infringing on someone else's severely restricted personal space -- a portly cousin to The Armrest Hog, The Seat-Kicking Kid or Reclines Right Into Your Lap Guy. There's no shortage of rude people of all sizes, but it seems like everyone's got a story about that whale who made a two-hour or three-hour or even five-hour flight pure hell for the adjacent paying customers. (The fact that airlines try to keep costs down by packing... more... - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet
So how has this been a SWA policy for over two decades and yet they leave it up to each crew's discretion rather than having clear, unambiguous rules? - Andrew C (✔)
cos it's SWA. DUH! - Big Joe Silence
I disagree. As one of those people subsidizing the price of tickets for overweight people who then spill into my seat, I think it should be standard policy to charge those people 2 seats. - Piaw Na
I'm paying the same amount of money as the overweight guy who spills into my seat. He's taking up my space, which I paid for! - Piaw Na
bullshit, asshole. you paid for a seat and cabin service, nothing else. - Big Joe Silence
all for a too-fat-to-fly policy? - Big Joe Silence
They do have clear (if sexist) rules, and then they violated them, according to the reports - since he could put the arm rest down. - Alix May
If someone is so huge that they can't keep all of their body in the confines of their own seat, it logically follows they should also pay for the adjacent seat that they're infringing upon. Surely that's not where the argument is. - Rahsheen
You don't have to be huge. I couldn't put the arm rest down when I was still a normal BMI. - Alix May
@Rah: you might feel differently if it was someone you love. - Big Joe Silence
also, what Alix said. - Big Joe Silence
I paid for my seat, and I'd like to use all of it, thank you very much. - Piaw Na
And the fat person paid for their transport and they'd like to get from a to b. - Alix May
Still, like the article says, LOVE how this gets turned from fat vs. thin folks instead of everyone against the airlines giving us so little space to begin with just to fuel their bottom line. - Alix May
BMI doesn't mean anything. I'm talking about actual size. Joe, even if I love the person, it doesn't mean they have the right to infringe on someone else's space. It's already been stated that we all pay the same amount per seat, so if you're sharing some of mine...we have a problem cuz I'm getting gypped. - Rahsheen
It depends on how you define "infringing" Rah. Most airline seats are narrower than the average man's shoulder width. At 350lbs (my heaviest past weight), I needed an extender, but fit within the seats just fine due to the distribution of my weight. The airlines need to be held accountable for this, not the poor people flying (thin or fat). The seats are too small, they keep making them smaller, and everyone suffers. - Jennifer Dittrich
++Jennifer. Don't think I've ever been on a flight by myself where some dude's shoulders weren't in my space, but no one cares about that. God forbid my hip bones disturb anyone, though. - Alix May
Fat people can buy two seats if they are using two seats. And the airlines are already nearly bankrupt, so it's not like they have shit loads of profit. - Piaw Na
I wish there were more seating options with different sizes. You rail-like people could get an extra special deal by sitting in the micro seats, and I would be more than happy to pay somewhat more for a little more room (and I do on the airlines that have econo+). But double? Or being forced to pay for the jump from economy to first class? Hardly seems fair. - mikepk
Piaw, you think it's fair for a larger person who infringes your space by 10% to pay 100% more than you? - mikepk
I think you're missing the point. Fine, if you're too big, buy more seats, but why should flight attendants just be able to arbitrarily decide that this fat person is fine in one seat, but this fat person needs additional seating? This wouldn't happen if there were actually standards that could be applied uniformly. - Victor Ganata
It's not fair, but it's all we have to work with. Why should I accept less than what I paid for? I don't like being snuggled up next to strangers for hours at a time. - Rahsheen
Yes. When I bring my bicycle as checked baggage, it also costs me shit loads of money. I just pay it because it's worth it to me. I don't bitch and moan about how unfair it is that golfers get to bring their golf clubs for free. I also don't stick sharp implements in my baggage so they can tear up other people's baggage. - Piaw Na
The primary issue here is that there is no system in place for handling people of different sizes and that sucks. The only solution currently is to make bigger people buy more seating. - Rahsheen
Me neither Rah. Tall, wide-shouldered guys should have to buy two seats. - Jennifer Dittrich
+++++Victor. - vicster: full-bodied
That might actually be covered if there were an actual system in place. Shoulders and hips are two different experiences, though. I can dodge shoulders. Hips are there to stay. - Rahsheen
Victor, yes that is the point, there should be a uniform policy if they're going to enforce it. - mikepk
Jennifer, I apologize. I'm that tall, broad shouldered guy that's in your space. :) - mikepk
I agree Rah, I just think that the airlines don't want to have a measurable standard, because they'd have to admit that their seats are actually too small for most people to fit in all of the way, and more people would file grievances. It's OK mike - most ppl would assume at my size that I'd be infringing on yours :) - Jennifer Dittrich
@Rah, I can't dodge shoulders. Every time I fly next to a broad-shouldered person, I end up getting clocked upside the head by that person's shoulder, unless I lean in the opposite direction for the entire flight. - vicster: full-bodied
What about the non-fat guy whose shoulders smoosh me? What about the perfectly thin guy who sprawls rudely so that i am scrunched in a corner with my legs crossed? I call bullshit on SWA, and having flown recently, the only people who were comfortable in their seats were children. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
@Cecily, I hear ya. The fat shaming going on is making me stabbity right now. It's the path of least resistance, though, isn't it? Rather than hold the airlines' feet to the fire, just blame the fatties. - vicster: full-bodied
Well, this thread just got emotional/irrational. You guys have a blast. - Rahsheen
Jennifer++ on the lack of public standards because they know their seat sizes are too small. - Andrew C (✔)
I have a feeling that if the airlines really did charge extra for people not just because they look really fat, but because they're actually impinging on their neighboring passengers, that not too many people would be able to afford to fly. - Victor Ganata
And the problem of having small seats would solve itself. I'm fine with using price to reduce the number of people flying. - Piaw Na
Yeah, who really needs to visit dying family members anyway...? - Alix May
If you can't afford the fee, you can't fly. Or is there a "visit dying family member" special fare that applies? - Piaw Na
Fine, so let's say we make the airlines increase their seat widths to 23". Then will people be getting cussed out about not wanting people with 30"-wide butts sitting on them? Or could we agree that maybe they should pay more than the rest? Alo, if the airlines tried to adopt standards, don't you think large people would object vociferously to being pulled aside and assessed to see where they fit? I wouldn't set myself up for that, either! - MiniMage
Why pull people aside? Just shove everyone through a measuring device and be fair about it. - Victor Ganata
I meant a less-than-arbitrary assessment. Yeah, Victor, that would work. - MiniMage
But "amen" to charging the dudes who squeeze me out of my leg space. - MiniMage
My 2-bedroom apartment costs me more per month than the complex's smaller 2-bedroom units. My garage costs me extra, too. Furthermore, I could take up a parking space in front of my building, while only I am entitled to my garage, which is one building over. I don't mind paying more. - MiniMage
What they do is if you don't fit, you buy enough seats until you fit. I think that's a fine solution. - Piaw Na
I think they should make sure their seats are good for the average customer before charging extra. In the US, the average is big. It would suck to he me, though, because my costs would go up, and I'm child-sized. - MiniMage
Flights are just uncomfortable for everyone. You get shoulders, elbows, and knees all pressing into you. You've got sick people (which is about the worst of all of them, since it can ruin your whole trip), and screaming babies next to you. It sucks for everyone. Singling any one group out is ridiculous. And since my hip bones are wider than the seats even without fat, it's hard to take any of it seriously at all. - Alix May
I have no problems paying extra. If the airlines want to charge us by the pound like we were cargo, fine. I just want to eliminate the whole "point at the fat guy and laugh as they kick him off the plane" phenomenon. - Victor Ganata
I think most of my flights have been ok. I vaguely recall once sitting between two men whose shoulders were in parts of my seat back and kept me from sitting back in my chair, until I decided to force the issue. Now, I choose window or aisle seats. - MiniMage
+1 to Victor. I'm happy to be charged by the pound like freight. I've been on flights where everyone was weighed before getting on the plane, just to make sure that total weight limits were not exceeded. In fact, why not just weigh everything, you, your luggage, etc. (Disclosure: I'm very sure I'll come out ahead with this metric) - Piaw Na
Remembering Aaliyah (dang it, now I want to see that video with Jet Li in it) - MiniMage
@Piaw - because in the passenger compartment it's about volume and dimensions as well as weight. - Andrew C (✔)
That's fine. Just throw in additional costs for exceeding volume and dimensions. - Piaw Na
Interesting point. A certain volume of muscle would outweigh an equivalent volume of fat, right? - MiniMage
Kevin covered the whole situation very well on the latest SModcast. - Dave Roth from iPhone
My father's family member are all tall and obese. I'm short, but I was headed toward obesity until that trend was reversed a couple of year ago. It aint just hips. Arms come over that armrest. I'm absolutely not saying keep large people off planes. I'm saying that we may all need to make some adjustments, including the airlines. - MiniMage
I'd read the blog. What I don't understand is what reason he thinks they have for kicking him off, if they didn't truly feel it was the reason they cited. - MiniMage
I think the thing that everyone is kinda dancing around is that seats in airplanes are too small and too cramped. I suspect that the reason for such is financial: more butts in the seats in any given flight mean more revenue for the airlines. Which is why airlines have been reticent to order planes that are roomier for coach flyers. One almost never hears complaints about first class passengers not having enough - because their seats are spacious enough. - Steven Perez
"Linda told me that, before I got anywhere near the plane (remember: I was hoping to get on standby), they were having a space issue on board with another passenger who’d purchased two seats, and they were having a problem moving already-seated passengers to accommodate this person. Enter me, who - Linda admitted - WAS NOT A PROBLEM. She fully acknowledged that I wasn’t bounced by the... more... - Chris Heath
so to recap, he got bounced because he was the last one on the plane, but they told him it was because he was TFTF, when it was really because someone else was TFTF - Chris Heath
also, the news arm of his media empire has posted again today on this issue http://www.newsaskew.com/the-fin... - Chris Heath
It's kinda like parking lot spaces getting smaller - more cars, more customers, more revenue. It all comes down to money, no matter whether you're on a plane or parking your oversized vehicle in a little parking space. - Steven Perez
Of course, according to Kevin Smith's blog post, for some reason, Southwest won't straight-up admit that they totally screwed up and seem to be continuing to imply that he *is* TFTF. - Victor Ganata
By the way, specifically about reclining into the space of the person behind you, I believe airlines are introducing "hard shell" seats where reclining won't actually take any space away from the person behind you, because the reclining action all takes place within the hard shell. - http://www.usatoday.com/travel... - Andrew C (✔)
Steven, I suspect those who fly business/1st class not only have longer seats, but are generally thinner. We keep reading on FF how people with lower incomes have to buy foods that aren't as good for them. Folks with more money can also afford personal trainers, gym memberships, etc. - MiniMage
I don't know about that. I think anyone who has that kind of money would have their own jet. - Steven Perez from IM
But business class/first class passengers are likely to be older too... - Andrew C (✔)
Eh... someone I work with had a personal trainer. I have a martial arts academy membership. We can't buy our own jets! Andrew, old folks can still buy fresh fruits and vegetables. - MiniMage
he's putting up a bunch of video now on youtube http://www.youtube.com/SModcas... - Chris Heath
I thought we were discussing people with lots of money, MiniMage. - Steven Perez
I was only addressing folks who were likely to be in the comfy first class seats. Would they only be rich people, or could there not be middle class there, as well? - MiniMage
Having just perused Expedia, I think that our ideas what makes up middle class might differ slightly. - Steven Perez
Ok, let's say someone who isn't living in highly expensive places like Manhattan or around Silicon Valley and makes six figures. That person, in my ignorant opinion, could afford 1st class, healthy food and a personal trainer, but not his or her own jet. - MiniMage
Yeah, a trainer and healthy food (or even expensive diets) are well below the price of even a private jet time share. OTOH, are the rich/upper middle class really all that much thinner? Just cause they can afford things that help with thinness doesn't mean they do. - Andrew C (✔)
Maybe, MiniMage. But that person would still get thrown off a Southwest flight if they were too fat. - Steven Perez
I don't know, Andrew, but remember I'd said we'd read here that poverty (being unable to afford nutritious, nonfattening foods) is what is making a lot of Americans fat. I mean. since it's not because they eat too much or won't exercise. I thought it made sense to conclude that access to the good stuff meant less obesity. - MiniMage
I eat about 1,600 cals a day (1,400 less than the calorie calcs put as "maintenance", FWIW), get my 7+ servings of fruits/veggies, 20+g of fiber, less than 10% sat fat, low carb, .36g+ of protein per pound, etc, etc etc... and work out about 5 times a week (tennis, yoga, walking, swimming)... still fat. Some people are just fat. - Alix May
Someone recommends 3000 calories a day? - MiniMage
For the putative 70 kg man, it's 2000 kcal/day for maintenance. In reality, it's going to differ wildly depending on your actual weight, baseline metabolism, level of activity, and current state of health. - Victor Ganata
I thought I recalled seeing 2000 for normal and 1200 for dieting, but I don't trust my memory. - MiniMage
Yeah, the textbooks give a single number, but it can vary significantly depending on the person. If you really want to know how many kilocalories you need per day to maintain your weight, you'd have to actually measure your basal metabolic rate, which no one ever does unless you're participating in a research study. - Victor Ganata
MM - I'm 5'2, 31, and 310 pounds. Put it in a calculator. Victor - I wasn't implying that it was the correct rate (obviously it isn't), but it is what the calculators give for me. - Alix May
I'd probably not get it right, if I tried to calculate it. I think there'd be one other factor to consider, like how many actual hours you work out. My extremely uneducated guess is that 1600 is hardly pigging out. - MiniMage
Not me. At all. - Steven Perez
Body size and personal space would be less of an issue if airlines gave passengers more space instead of trying to wring every last penny out of them. - John (bird whisperer)
I'm sorry I haven't read the other 101 comments, but I agree w/ John. I'm 5'8", not as thin as I could be, I'm sure, but I am very rarely any shade of comfortable sitting in coach. And I hardly blame this on the body-size of the person sitting next to me. The airlines are squeezing all of us. My partner is 6'2", and he has to spend half the flight standing just so his knees don't fall apart (and he has no other knee trouble). - Ayşe E.
Michael R. Bernstein
Site figures out when people aren't at home based on their shared location info. - Michael R. Bernstein
But, is there a good way to know those peoples' actual "Home" location? Then it's scary. - Kevin L
Given that many people are (rather stupidly) registering their 'home' location in sites like Foursquare, then yes. - Michael R. Bernstein
Otherwise, many people's addresses are listed in regular phone databases I think. But if you pull all the needed data from one site, it's almost seems too easy. I do think that taking crime into consideration is something that is not very widely accepted in the social media world, which is in general about sharing as much of yourself in public as possible. - Meryn Stol
Ideally, you'd want a way to share to a public that's known to be non-criminal. But those boundaries would almost be impossible to guard. But still, requiring some kind of "proof" that you're a good guy before being able to access some of the "public" information would be an improvement over full public data. - Meryn Stol
I suppose you could use a web of trust approach. - Michael R. Bernstein
I somewhat like the idea of putting some kind of license on data. "public, except for...". A bit like the creative commons concept, but then for privacy (but with the goal of sharing with many - especially strangers). I think the hardest thing would be to enforce this policy upon API consumers. - Meryn Stol
Meryn, as with other API and TOS violations, as long as there is a good reporting mechanism (with verification), there will always be an incentive for someone to report violators. - Michael R. Bernstein
You're right. I think the biggest problem would actually be the web of trust. Where to get the data on the social graph? Facebook, Twitter? I do think that I'd prefer to share information with people who seem reasonably embedded in "healthy" areas of the social graph than with people who can not make this plausible. This reminds me of previous discussion of introducing a kind of... more... - Meryn Stol
Bret Taylor
All I can think about when watching men's skating is Blades of Glory. I know I am not the only one.
No. You're not. I actually nearly bought Blades of Glory the other day. - Roberto Bonini from iPhone
me too lol - GRANDMAFORSCARLETT
Thomas Hawk
10 Ways FriendFeed is Better Than Google’s Buzz - http://thomashawk.com/2010...
10 Ways FriendFeed is Better Than Google's Buzz
I've been using Google Buzz now for four days since it launched and wanted to take a minute to blog a post about 10 ways that I've found FriendFeed to be better than Google Buzz. - Thomas Hawk
one other thing I've noticed is that items show up a lot faster here at FF than they do at Buzz. - Thomas Hawk
I fully expect Buzz to get faster. There's no shortage of Google engineers who understand scale. - Bruce Lewis
agreed Bruce, it's very early still for them. Apparently they are also doing something with something called PubSubHub or some such thing that is supposed to make things work faster as well. Maybe? At least that's what it sounded like when I listened in on TWIG this afternoon. - Thomas Hawk
but see this blog post of mine showed up here 47 minutes ago and it's still not on Buzz. Also FriendFeed has a way to manually force a refresh on any feed. Buzz can't do that yet. - Thomas Hawk
Sometimes it is taking up to 12 hours for tweets to appear on Buzz - it needs to find 'real time' ~ Friendfeed is much better, in many ways. - Chris Loft
#1, Best of day. :) - Thomas Hawk
There's an unofficial refresh for Buzz available here: https://sgapi-recrawl.appspot.com/ - Bruce Lewis
PubSubHubbub (aka PuSH) will help them notice updates faster for sites that implement it. Hopefully they'll also support SUP, FriendFeed's invention for the same purpose. SUP is easier to implement reliably. If you implement PuSH, you need a queue system for when the hub is unavailable. With SUP, the hub does the catching up when it comes back. - Bruce Lewis
wow Bruce. I just checked out sgapi. It says it's not available until Monday, but it seems like it totally is a way to manually refresh feeds in your Google Buzz. Thanks! How in the hell did you find out about that? - Thomas Hawk
DeWitt shared it with me. It certainly helped my testing. But I'll have to do without it until Monday. - Bruce Lewis
very cool! - Thomas Hawk
I'm a little bummed they turned it off, since I was eager to test a couple of things: http://friendfeed.com/brlewis... - Bruce Lewis
PuSH! That's way cooler than what I was calling it, PSHB. - Vezquex
Very good post, Thomas. However, I think Google Buzz will become more popular (or already is) than FriendFeed. I still hope Facebook won't give up FriendFeed. - Simon Cahuk
Simon I totally agree. Maybe Buzz will be a good wake up call for Facebook though. - Thomas Hawk
Here's one: Friendfeed just hides it, it doesn't make you wait through a show of fading out. - sergiooo
it's more friendly than Buzz or maybe we are used to it more than that. I myself believe that friendfeed is much better that Buzz. - Viva Vida
yay :) - sunipeyk
I hope Facebook is reading this and planning to make some steps forward :). Yes, Franz, FriendFeed is way better, I have some problems with scrolling through Buzz (in Chrome dev for Mac). I also suggest you to read Robert Scobler's post: http://scobleizer.com/2010... - Simon Cahuk
Afaik, Facebook said they do not develop FrF any further? - Arizona girl 9
I was thinking: if Google copies FriendFeed with Buzz then FriendFeed isn't that bad, is it :) ? - Simon Cahuk
Berkus, any links about your statement? - Simon Cahuk
Johnny
Is it true in the mind of the tech-sphere that everything Microsoft does now sucks and it's too late to suceed? Hell, I'm an hardcore Apple Fanboi and I wouldn't even say that. Apple sucked for while there too you know.
Apple sucked for years and years. I was a total apple fan in the 90s though when everyone hated them and got my first PC 6 months before OSX came out...and haven't gone back. It's been amusing to watch Apple regain prominence while not using ANY of their products. MS can certainly turn things around if they get the right people in the right positions but they have a lot of momentum into mediocrity. - veo
It seems like it. Tech bloggers seem to have short memories. I don't count out anyone who has been around. These days, people are quick to count out Nokia and RIM even though they still have a huge marketshare. It's all about the new shiny thing and through my phone purchases, I do the same. As for smartphones, I went from the Blackjack (WinMo 5.5) -> iPhone -> Palm Pre (webOS) -> Droid (Android 2.0). Maybe next in line for a killer OS will be from Microsoft again or something surprising from RIM or Nokia. - Rodfather
No. Bing is fine. Windows 7 is pretty good. Office has yet to be replaced. - Louis Gray
Microsoft does a LOT right. - Nathan Chase from iPhone
No. MS always succeeds to a degree because they have such a huge marketshare and brand recognition. Whether or not they are blogger and media darlings is a different matter. But being a media darling doesn't pay the bills, so why would MS really care about that? - Cheryl Jones
For the record I'm glad to see Windows Phone 7. The hubby and I were just talking about how the Zune "twist" UI is really good and that MS should expand upon it for their mobile devices. Looks like they knew that, too. - Cheryl Jones
I knew the Zune team would eventually be put on Phone duties, can't wait to see the finished products - Mo Kargas
The tech sphere has been saying that everything Microsoft does sucks for a long time, but they seem to still be raking in the cash... Honestly, I think they are doing pretty good. - Aram Zucker-Scharff
An MS backoffice is still a very powerful way of managing a network of users, computers, devices and to provide services for them to use. LCS is a great way of providing an inhouse IM and SIP service for example. Many of these bloggers don't have a clue about the depth of MS's strength and only ever see the consumer side of things. Also, MS are doing a *lot* of things right in the gaming scene. Apple are no where near being on the radar for gamers. - alphaxion
I can't think of any good comeback stories in tech. Seems more common to watch a slow painful/embarrassing death. Apple doesn't really count to me, because Apple sucked when Jobs was gone. When he came back, he made it good again. He has a unique ability to drive innovation and capture the public imagination, like Walt Disney or Henry Ford. How's that for fanboi? But seriesly, can you think of any good tech comebacks? - Chip Ramsey
Thought of one: Nintendo. Any other dominant tech companies that started their slow descent into oblivion and were able to come back? - Chip Ramsey
Here's the thing... Myspace... It's DEAD... yet has almost 50 million users. A service or product may appear to be gone or lame in a very small group of very noisy people yet be perfectly fine and even great for a large (silient) majority - Johnny
Yeah, don't count Microsoft out until they are no longer here. Apple should have been dead in the late 90s and look where it is now. - Scoble, Alex Scoble
I give major props to Microsoft's WinMo team for executing a social centric data driven OS overhaul. Positive feedback all around - excited to see it! - Mona Nomura
Mona... You know me, total Apple Fanboi and I honestly went 'WOAH' when I saw it - Johnny
I just wish they launched it at the same time as the iPhone...I think they are already a little too behind. Also, I am curious as to how the browsing experience is. I do not want to be locked into any of their (sh*tty) products; Office, IE, and Silverlight, to be specific. - Mona Nomura
I know. My 3G contract is up in June... going to be hard waiting 4 months before I get hands on - Johnny
Microsoft is doing good things, just seems like people don't care...their marketing really sucks. - Scoble, Alex Scoble
Alex: I was saying earlier that I attribute Apple's comeback to Jobs and he's an exception. I don't think anyone at MS is providing the singular vision required to turn the company around. Maybe I'm wrong and Ozzie's moves towards the cloud will make MS exciting again, but more often than not it seems that tech companies in MS's position slowly fade away. - Chip Ramsey
Johnny: Do you own a Zune? (not trying to be funny) - Chip Ramsey
Chip, no. But I would if I could. I like the UI and look while playing music (plus the subscriptions model etc) - Johnny
I am definitely going with the N1. Getting it on March 15th (during SouthBy!) - Mona Nomura
Apple still sucks. BTW, Win7 is the biggest win in desktop computing history. - LarchOye
Apple's comeback was a two step process...they needed a CEO who could come in and clean house and really make it lean. That wasn't Jobs...then they needed a visionary CEO who could come in and make good use of the interesting things the researchers were doing. That was Jobs. - Scoble, Alex Scoble
That sounds reasonable Alex, but I don't think anyone except Jobs could have been successful. - Chip Ramsey
Larch... See how we AREN'T bagging on anything here? Positivity is the game. We could get into a pissing match about corporate verse retail sales etc but that doesn't help anyone. - Johnny
I agree, Chip, but without the big cost cutting, I don't think that even Jobs would have been successful. - Scoble, Alex Scoble
Is Ballmer the right figurehead? Do they need someone more... not... sorry to say 'un-car-salesman' like? - Johnny
I do think that the 7 Series software looks great BTW. Just skeptical. Also, as a Mac user there is about zero chance that I will get one, because I doubt there will be very good compatibility options. (Can't believe we still have to "sync" with our computers) - Chip Ramsey
ROFL Ballmer is a bit of a car salesmen isn't he? - Scoble, Alex Scoble
Alex: because... uh, he is ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch... - alphaxion
Wulffy
Pandas on a SLIDE!!! :D (über http://friendfeed.com/funny-p...)
Pandas on a SLIDE!!! :D (über http://ff.im/fIEAn)
Wheeeeeeeeeeee! - Melly - #TeamMarina
adorable - Pinkpackrat
حدیث - Papak
roflol! That's great, I had a stuffed panda when I was little. I always thought they were cuter than regular teddy bears. - Melanie Reed
Jason, right. And I never had any understanding why friendfeed blocks them for all sites I have no membership and that are not included in my profile. - Wulffy
A black and white furry faceplant. - Brent - Yes I am
:))))) - sofarsoShawn
This has been up for 23 hours and Mona hasn't liked it yet...I fear something has happened to her! - Joe "The Anvil" Pierce
Joe, maybe you ask her? ;) - Wulffy
I totally missed it!!!! I LOVE PANDAS. - Mona Nomura
there is balance in the universe again. - Joe "The Anvil" Pierce
HA HA! ;) - Wulffy
Oh, Mona was here! Hi Mona! - Wulffy
this is totally awesome:) I wanna cuddle them so badly:) - Neşe
They just look like they are really enjoying this! - Melanie Reed
100% Irresistible. - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
Johnny
Frustrating... Windows Phone 7 looks cool but it won't be in phones until November... That's a loooong time to wait (for me). My iPhone is coming up on 2 years in June and depending on what Apple announces, it may be hard to hang on that long. Why so long Microsoft? Why...
500x_iphone-vs-winmo.jpg
Because MSFT is no longer in the phone business? DOA. - Louis Gray
It will take that long to 1) attract devs back from Android/iPhone and 2) have the SDKs and examples in the devs hands long enough to unlearn the horrors that made up coding for the previous versions of WinMobile - bear (aka Mike Taylor)
You have to realize that iPhone dev is totally different - so you have to have devs just for that platform. Then consider Android - while it's the same basic OS, you have to know the subtle diffs between carriers and models. Now comes WinMo, a platform a lot of companies had written off as niche like the Blackberry - now suddenly you have to get your mobile devs to also support it. Which team do you pilfer from? Or do you contract? It's not easy doing all three at all. - bear (aka Mike Taylor)
All the people who went to Andriod simply because it WASN'T Apple and WASN'T AT&T. If you walk into a store and see this sitting next to the iPhone and Andriod... people may buy it. Especially with the Facebook and Xbox Live features. Developers will develop for the largest markets. Andriod just went from a 'hmm' to a 'meh' for me (as a semi-average consumer) - Johnny
Plus, I'm sure this will have great Exchange integration, which I need in my small business. - Johnny
It's going to be an interesting summer for sure because you have to think about two types of phone consumers - the early adopter tech scene who bounce from phone to phone like it's chewing gum, and the "normal" consumers who get tied into contracts. For them you may be right in that it's going to integrate into the windows realm for data just like my Nexus integrates for me into the... more... - bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Business users will leap on that platform as J-Wo alludes to, especially if it supports Exchange. - Mo Kargas
Its a test. - Brent - Yes I am
bill, it's because blackberry is still focused on message delivery over other features - something most smart phones do as secondary features. - bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Yeah, Blackberry fills out business services very well - Mo Kargas
Best != Best fit :) - Johnny from iPhone
"Best" is subjective - Mo Kargas
Exactly... - Johnny from iPhone
There were rumors of 2 branches of the OS. One with more traditional WInMo roots for business users plus the Zune-like version for consumers. - Rodfather
Am I the only one who thinks that Windows Phone 7 interface is ugly? I guess it's just a design aesthetic, but it's all square and boxy and WHY isn't it centered on the screen, that's annoying the CRAP out of me. It bugs me that some boxes are solid color and others have full graphics. Is that what Zune HD looks like? - Jandy
Jandy, I had kind of the same problem with the start screen until I saw it in action.. Have you seen the videos? The hubs are where the magic happens and it also explains why the text isn't centered..Each hub is a continuous panorama that you swipe around in and the text scrolls as you swipe. I'm more alarmed that the live tiles are left justified.. it seems odd to have blank space on the right edge. - veo
I watched some of the video; I'll watch the rest before I make a final judgment. - Jandy
Looks good, Xbox integration is nice too :) - Mo Kargas
Kevin Fox
polar r=(sin(t)*sqrt(abs(cos(t))))/(sin(t) + 7/5) -2*sin(t) + 2 - http://www.wolframalpha.com/input...
polar-plot.gif
Kevin you did it! You figured out the formula for love. - Jesse Stay
Theres a couple of discontinuities in that graph... - Matt M (inactive)
I'm not sure whether I should be impressed or frightened (or both). - MiniMage
Wulffy
What. The. Eff...? o_O - Andrew Terry
I'm thinking dirty things. - NOT THE CRICKET
omg wtf!!!!!!! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
y'know... if you watch that for long enough, it becomes oddly.... alluring - Andrew Terry
Andrew, I've been staring at it for a while, I even found a bigger image. http://www.gifbin.com/983874 - NOT THE CRICKET
The bigger image is linked at the top as well! ;) - Wulffy
Have you seen the other image? http://friendfeed.com/wulffy... - Wulffy
Matthew, I was thinking the same, but I'm thinking body mods because their is a triangle on her right cheek. - NOT THE CRICKET
Wait, she has cheeks? Oh yeah, now I can see 'em ;) - Iain Baker
The hawtest thing about this clip is the flick of the eyebrows, followed by the widening of the eyes... (yes, for the love of Odin, I've watched it *that* many times...) - Andrew Terry
Andrew, agreed. - NOT THE CRICKET
Wulffy, I've seen the other image, but it isn't attractive. - NOT THE CRICKET
Jimminy, oh, I thought both are the same. Sorry. - Wulffy
Video of this girl. :) http://www.vidmax.com/video... OMG so hot. - NOT THE CRICKET
Uhm...no me gusta! :((( - Rahsheen
Jimminy, awesome clip! Thanks for the link! - Wulffy
All I can think of is a quote from an old Western. - MiniMage
Minimage, what is the quote? - NOT THE CRICKET
something about a forked tongue - MiniMage
If she blocked anyone's driveway, I'd stand up for her. ;) - NOT THE CRICKET
Yes, but she speaks with forked tongue... - Spidra Webster
Spidra, she doesn't have to say a word. ;) - NOT THE CRICKET
I've only seen a pic once of someone who has this body mod. I never in a million years thought it would be possible to learn to move the split parts of that muscle separately from each other. - Spidra Webster
no no no no no no - Marissa
Marissa, more like Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh - NOT THE CRICKET
this is bad - Marissa
Marissa, why is it bad? - NOT THE CRICKET
its gross - Marissa
I wonder how it affects whatever skill she may have had at tying cherry stem knots? - Spidra Webster
Seems to me that cutting the muscle would weaken it, though dexterity doesn't seem to be an issue. - Tinfoil 2.0
LEx, it might make it weaker, but I wouldn't be too sure. I mean there is still plenty of the muscle that can be contracted within the mouth and throat. I also just figured out how to control them separately. Try moving your tongue left and right independently, and then simultaneously, your tongue contracts in the very middle, so I'd think that an inch or two slit wouldn't harm strength too much. - NOT THE CRICKET
Intriguing! But also kinda gross. I wonder if she's twice as likely to bite her tongue. - Micah Monserrat
Considering skills, maybe she could solve Rubik's cube in the mouth - nazer1
Paul Buchheit
The Buzz/Gmail integration is nice. They should open those integration points to other apps, such as FriendFeed.
e.g. the ability to have live updating messages in the inbox. - Paul Buchheit
is buzz a service? - MikeAmundsen
I think that could very well be coming, but in a slightly different form. That is, Gmail proper is a client for email, but Buzz is a client for social activity. Instead of having another tab for FriendFeed, Buzz would simply and seamlessly sync everything, including comments and attribution, with FriendFeed (and Facebook) via WebFinger/Salmon/ActivityStreams/etc. - Mark Trapp
No, I mean other apps, not necessarily just FriendFeed variants. - Paul Buchheit
If the ux is appending elements, then salmon would seem to be the way to do it, though then it needs a permalink to hang off. - Kevin Marks
That could be a nice baby step toward Wave (or Wave-like functionality) within Gmail. Update threads from XMPP, SMS, APIs,... - Tinfoil 2.0
Now you're talking! (I almost typed that in all caps.) - Stephen Mack
Paul, ah, like maybe Farmville? :-P Edit: not Farmville. But totally multiple games of Scrabble. Or even document collaboration. - Mark Trapp
I'd like comments sync'ed between the two but that's a pipedream. - Kol Tregaskes
Paul, are you saying you wan the equivalent of http://friendfeed.com/api... ? - Kevin Marks
I think they should just add header tags and use SMTP standard to do it. If specific header tags are in place, then Gmail adapts. - Jesse Stay
I agree though - I could use this in SocialToo's DM e-mails. - Jesse Stay
No, Kevin I'm talking about the interface integration. I would like to have made FriendFeed do the things that Buzz is doing in Gmail, but of course that kind of integration isn't possible to outside developers. - Paul Buchheit
It could then use salmon to sync comments from whatever service decides to adapt it - Jesse Stay
Salmon has nothing to do with what I'm asking for. - Paul Buchheit
Salmon drenched in butter and onions. Yum. - τorƍue
I'd like to change friendfeed so that the comments aren't too grey to read on my Mac, so it supports microformats, and the faces are bigger, but I can't do that either (well, not without munging with your sample apps: http://friendlierfeed.appspot.com ) - Kevin Marks
I don't see how Salmon couldn't be used for this. Salmon ideally could be used to push comments into the e-mail, couldn't it? Or am I misunderstanding what Salmon does? - Jesse Stay
Jesse, what if I want to change the message content entirely, not just be stuck within the limits of a comment-oriented ui? - Paul Buchheit
Paul, good point - that does limit to just a comment-oriented structure. Maybe they could use the Facebook API code at http://developers.facebook.com/opensou... to implement Canvas pages for e-mail. ;-) An FBML tag could tell it where to put the message body. - Jesse Stay
I'd love that functionality in Facebook, too, btw. I'd just take the ability to delete a message via API in Facebook though at a minimum. - Jesse Stay
The basic idea is that the inbox structure is useful, and as Buzz has demonstrated, it's useful for more than just email, so why not open up the inbox to third-party apps. BTW, we actually prototyped something like this for FriendFeed (open the feed to other apps), but never completed it enough to ship. I think it still has a lot of potential though. - Paul Buchheit
Paul, sounds like an opportunity for competition :-) - Jesse Stay
You didn't have to bugger off to Facebook you could still be developing Friendfeed right now and competing with Buzz. Google clearly thinks you guys were on to something here and there is money left on the table. - Mark
They must think there is lots of money to be made in a Friendfeed clone to put it dead center in the middle of their top service. - Mark
I think Facebook saw that, too :-) - Jesse Stay
Mark, buzz has a bit of a structural advantage over FriendFeed in that it can integrate with Gmail :) - Paul Buchheit
Yeah hehe. The truth is though, right now, Buzz is not as good / polished as Friendfeed. But I imagine they have lots and lots of people (probably more than was on the Friendfeed team) working on things. - Mark
I'll defer to Paul as the expert on this one :-) - Jesse Stay
Let's call a spade a spade. You can't say this but I can. Google stole your idea! lol. - Mark
Google steals all of Paul's ideas ;-) - Jesse Stay
Didn't they pay for some of them Jesse? :-) - Ken Sheppardson
Kevin Marks said on Gillmor Gang today that he was testing Buzz before he left google and that was age ago so they were developing Buzz when Friendfeed was growing and peaking. Suprised they didn't just try and buy Friendfeed. - Mark
And nobody is saying that FriendFeed could integrate in the same way on Facebook's messaging 2.0? - Louis Gray
Whilst we were all coming to Friendfeed, they were salivating over the service. - Mark
Everyone has their Facebooks set to Private though, or the most popular guys have the full 5000 limit so it wouldn't be as effective if they turned on Friendfeed for Facebook :( - Mark
I read recently somewhere on one of the big blogs that the fact so many people have Private accounts is hurting Facebooks in search revenue potential. - Mark
Obviously you can't do cool search things if 3/4 of the things people look for are coming from Private accounts and are blocked out of the search systemm - Mark
Hmm, maybe Buzz is a glimpse of a future Facebook-like app platform in gmail? Google Friend Connect fits in there somewhere. - Daniel Sims
Mark, everyone has their Gmails set to private as well - Jesse Stay
Daniel, I think Google is recreating a social network from the ground up. I think they could have just done it starting with Orkut if they did it right. I'm usually wrong though. - Jesse Stay
What happens if you edit via IMAP an email that is being read in gmail? - Nick Lothian from iPod
Sorta defeats the purpose of a "walled garden" if you open up the app to the competition #justsayin - WarLord
Nice - TrafficBug
Hey Paul, you guys should look into the Kynetx platform. With one platform you can create extensions across multiple browsers that re-organize the viewing experience. So, even without Google allowing you to alter it, you can allow users to alter it with just a simple install of a Facebook extension for their browser. You guys modify the experience, users get comments in their Gmail for FriendFeed/Facebook, and everyone's happy. No need to wait for Google for that. - Jesse Stay
If you guys don't create it I will so let me know :-) - Jesse Stay
Of course they do :) - Xavier Vespa
Yahoo! Mail supports adding OpenSocial apps. Would be nice to have the same in GMail. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/apps - David Recordon
David, I'd love to see you guys do a Kynetx app. It could be your first entry into the Information/Action card space. :-) - Jesse Stay
BTW, I *love* some of the API stuff Yahoo is doing. Their APIs right now are really useful (and work with Facebook Connect)! - Jesse Stay
This is definitely a good idea. In the near term you could get most of the same benefit by making a friendfeed igoogle gadget. I don't know how many people check their email through igoogle rather than gmail, but I'd be willing to be that it's significant. - Ryan Moulton
They should probably build integration into their own properties first. Where's Buzz in Google maps? Where's the Buzz iGoogle gadget? - Julian Bond
@David Recordon -- see http://blog.opensocial.org/2009.... Doesn't come close to covering every use case discussed here, but does, I think, do exactly what you're asking about. - David Glazer
even the ff team don't care about their services, how do you want it from google? may be google knows the truth that ff team wont develope ff anymore. when will facebook shut down the ff service? - Ibrahim Ozturkcan from iPhone
Chris Messina
Google Buzz moves from auto-follow to auto-suggest model: http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2010...
They really need some sort of list with interesting people that you can follow... ;-) - Ken Sheppardson
Ken, I think Robert Scoble will do that :). Just wait. But we need a list support in Buzz first. - Simon Cahuk
What Google really needs is deep Facebook Connect and Twitter integration. I should be able to tell which of my Twitter and Facebook friends are on Buzz and be able to automatically follow them (without even clicking a button). - Jesse Stay
Same goes for Orkut. - Jesse Stay
I thought Buzz did have lists - thought I saw a screenshot of someone showing that. - Laura Norvig
Jesse you can work out that information using the Social Graph API. Although the API for being able to programmatically follow people doesn't exist yet. You should post a request for that to the Buzz APIs group: http://groups.google.com/group... - Adewale Oshineye
Gabe
Can mosquitos develop immunity to lasers? (3rd video down) - http://intellectualventureslab.com/...
I'd sure like to see them try! - Gabe from Bookmarklet
Welcoming my mosquito overlords - Jesse Stay
I join Jesse in the welcoming of the most honorable and revered Mosquito Overlords.... - Morgan
"The working prototype at Intellectual Ventures Lab was constructed almost entirely from parts purchased second-hand on eBay and similar websites." - anyone know what kind of laser they use? - bob
Robbie: I think they use a blu-ray laser. Probably from a recorder because they're more powerful. - Gabe
yeah i gathered that from the color in the videos - any guess as to output power/specific model? - bob
I guess it works great if you can lure the mosquitos into a giant fish tank ;) - Tony C (Unrated)
Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
The more I use Google Buzz, the more I wonder what they were smoking. FriendFeed is (BY FAR) more usable.
I'm getting so sick of Google products breaking. The latest Chrome beta for Mac is really slow and keeps crashing when I try to write blog posts in Wordpress - Jesse Stay
Of course, Reader is broken now too due to Buzz - Jesse Stay
It feels like work using Buzz - Rodfather
Is it ok to drop a selfish link to a blog post of mine here Chris? - Johnny
(I thought I would ask first) It's about AdWords http://www.johnnyworthington.com/... - Johnny
FriendFeed is easier to use and the posting to twitter option is far easier. The third party site for buzz is flaky at best. But I see potential for them both down the road. Buzz needs to fix their privacy policies. - Patrick from email
Buzz needs to fix. Period. :) - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
I just realized that in Buzz you can only see posts from people you follow, not content they like or comment on unless Google recommends it. (http://ff.im/fPUL4). - Chris Myles
I just forwarded your post to my friends at Bing, Johnny. - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
I appreciate that, thank you :) - Johnny
I think Google has just gotten too big and doesn't know how to handle it yet. Here's my thought: http://staynalive.com/article... - they should have used Orkut more. They're missing a huge opportunity here. - Jesse Stay
I'm glad to see Chris say this. I'm all for influences hyping a new product but let's call a spade a spade. Buzz has some major usability flaws right now and is in no way a FF-Killer... Maybe a "Twitter flattener" when you can create lists/folders. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)
@Chris I agree, I'd love to see a desktop app like TweetDeck or Seesmic did for Twitter and Friendfeed. If they make a nice app I'd love to use it more, But I don't want to keep opening up my gmail page when I use a email client for email. I'd rather use a desktop app. That's just me, though. - Patrick from email
Holy shit, I totally forgot about Orkut. - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
And if you want a "usable" Buzz experience, try it through http://www.feedly.com/ & Chrome. - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
And I totally forgot about Feedly :-) - Jesse Stay
Google really, really, REALLY needs to hire designers. "Plain" works for Web search. - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
Chris, I agree, wholeheartedly - Jesse Stay
FWIW, Buzz has been live for 96 hours. How well did Facebook, FriendFeed, or Twitter work on day 3? : ) Give us a little time to iterate -- there are a lot of features that need tweaking, and many more to come. But please do keep the feedback (and criticism) coming. I mean that seriously -- it helps a ton, and we're all enjoying trying to keep up with you all. - DeWitt Clinton
OMG Chris posted directly to FF!! Not even via Twitter, and it's not a coupon!! Welcome back, dude!! - Lindsay
DeWitt, I mean the criticism with passion when I give it. I have a lot of passion for Google products, and I feel like a lot of my Google experience was just flustered with the release of Buzz due to the cross-integration of the social graph. You guys also released a whole bunch of things all at once, all with a lot of bugs, so that too is frustrating consider a lot of my web experience is on Google products. - Jesse Stay
Echo on thanks for posting this Chris. Buzz actually has me scared because of Google's reach andarket strength. I'm afraid that Buzz will be a throw back to when the average person thought that AOL was the Internet. First, I object to the trojan horse method Google used to launch Buzz. Second are privacy concerns. Third is a lack of filtering for inbound feeds. And fourth is trying to... more... - Mark Davidson from BuddyFeed
Jesse -- nobody will ever accuse you of lacking passion. : ) But I really do thank you for taking the time to write about these things and challenging us to do better. - DeWitt Clinton
I'll correct my frantic iPhone typing and delete this post when I get back to a computer. - Mark Davidson from BuddyFeed
DeWitt, be sure to take it with love :-) - Jesse Stay
DeWitt - Anyone who reads my feeds knows that I'm a huge fan of Google's collaborative tools. I live and work by them. I'm also very supportive of developers and their efforts. I'm sure that Jesse will confirm that. However... I've never felt so strongly against any social service much less a Google service. Please, make me a fan again. - Mark Davidson from BuddyFeed
I think Buzz could be great, and could have benefited a lot from an "open beta" period where interested parties (outside of the relatively small Google employee / trusted tester group) could play with it. - Tudor Bosman
@Tudor - an open beta might have worked. I'm not sure, I can go both ways on this. We're learning a lot very, very quickly watching how millions and millions of real users interact with the system. I've seen nothing so far that can't be addressed with bug fixes and iterative improvements (nice list, Mark!), which is good, and Buzz is already being used beyond our (my, anyway) wildest expectations. - DeWitt Clinton
I'm pissed at Buzz because it should have detected my YouTube subscribers instead of my Gmail address book. That would have put me ahead of everybody. *neener neener* - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
So glad I'm not the only one who thinks there are massive problems with Buzz. I tried it for about 2 minutes and I have no interest in trying it again. - MarkCarras
Buzz needs a desktop client more than Twitter does. - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
DeWitt.. I like your style.. it's the first time I've heard a Google employee say that feedback (and criticism) actually help (sad but true). - Chris Myles
@Chris (Pirillo) - I can't wait for the API to get out the door so we can turn Seesmic and the Tweetie people loose on Buzz clients. @Chris (Myles) - keep it coming. - DeWitt Clinton
friendfeed is the highest of standards for comparison, so a service may still have some value, even without reaching such a pinnacle - Mike Chelen
DeWitt, I'm rooting you guys on for that. I'm still very unclear as to how the whole "auto-follow" thing works though. It's very confusing right now. - Jesse Stay
DeWitt, I quit using Buzz today. Please see my frustrations here, including the 14 features I miss from FF: http://friendfeed.com/zeigen... - Stephen Mack
I have to agree. I usually support everything Google does, but this offers nothing new and as I keep quoting David Risley, its..."Google Buzz is FriendFeed within email." - Frank Angelone
those features are still new to many users unfamiliar with friendfeed - Mike Chelen
I'm sick of google hype... Last month it was wave... Blah blah - orionstarr from iPhone
Louis Gray
I just found the secret enclave where all the people complaining about Google Buzz and privacy hang out. - http://images.google.com/images...
I just found the secret enclave where all the people complaining about Google Buzz and privacy hang out.
I just found the secret enclave where all the people complaining about Google Buzz and privacy hang out.
I just found the secret enclave where all the people complaining about Google Buzz and privacy hang out.
Sorry? My email just became a social network and I can't have concerns? - Johnny from iPhone
But you posted it here instead of to Buzz. LOUIS GRAY WAS AN INSIDE JOB! - Micah
Yes, Johnny. Your concerns are overblown. Let's discuss. - Louis Gray
this is an issue amongst the early adopting fast growing Turkish market too. I checked it because of the concerns and did not see ANY private info shared because of Buzz being on gmail. Not even your mail is shared in any way.. If someone messages you it goes to your inbox and if you reply it then your mail is revealed , but hey if you direct message someone then i suppose you can mail them too right ?? i dont share the concerns. - Üstün Üzüm
No Louis - the correct way to do that sort of post is "Buzz security concerns are overblown and everyone who is worried is foolish and wrong! I'll tell you why here:..." - WoH: Professor MOTHRA
Ustun, any sort of change brings out the nervous nellies. Google is so big now that much of what they do is viewed with suspicion, even if there are no grounds for it. Are there edge cases? Sure. We wouldn't be humans without them. But some people just like to fuss for attention. - Louis Gray
Sorry, WoH. Next time. - Louis Gray
Who is fussing for attention? Names? - Jesse Stay
A service I signed up for decided to take the information in my private, passworded contact list and use that, without permission, as the starting point for their new venture. Despite how kick ass the service is in your opinion, I didn't sign up for it. Google made me THEN gave me the option to switch it off. I have nothing to hide but I also don't have 100% blind faith in a corporation... more... - Johnny from iPhone
Johnny, not to mention that they gave access to your contacts to others even without you turning it on. - Jesse Stay
I don't personally have many issues with Buzz's security. My issues are with the UI and the amount of archaic and hidden configuration you need to perform to make it function properly. Google failed to provide easy methods to keep Buzz out of your in box and sent mail boxes for instance. I don't see a way to pause the feed so I can actually read a post, like you can on Frinedfeed. I wish it was possible to have long threads collapsed so each one doesn't take up the entire page or more. I could go on... - Jeff P. Henderson
Issues with UI and configs make sense. But all this nonsense about exposed e-mails and people's avatars? Please. This isn't 1993. - Louis Gray
Are you guys up in arms about Twitter showing who you are following and followed by? - Louis Gray
Louis, not sure what you're talking about - have a link? - Jesse Stay
Louis is Mr. Google don't you know? Either way it's not overblown. Some people have legitimate concerns as shown here: http://gizmodo.com/5470696... Now she sounds like she's a few turds short of an outhouse but that doesn't make her point any less valid. - Jason Williams
Twitter is different. I picked every single person I decided to follow - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Louis, I joined Twitter knowing that would happen. I didn't join Twitter knowing they would eventually expose my contacts. - Jesse Stay
Jason, I've seen that overexposed link. That is an edge case. Try turning on a service for 10s of millions and not having bumps. - Louis Gray
I've said this over and over again today - a contact is not a social connection. They are 2 different things. - Jesse Stay
and i picked from the start if twitter would be public or not. Up until Buzz, my contact list in Gmail was 100% private. - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Jesse, if you keep saying it over and over, sounds like you should be coding more. To the SocialToo desk! - Louis Gray
No, it's 2010. With all the issues o privacy and security, Gmail being hacked by the Chinese, Patriot Act etc... A simple explaination and Approve button would be nice. This isn't 1984, but that doesn't happen by chance. If Google gets a pass, who next? 1 rule for all, not just the one you like the best. - Johnny from iPhone
Louis, comparing to Twitter is off base. What would you say if your emails just started showing up in Google's public search index because they thought it had value? - Todd Hoff
Read this article and tell me with a strait face that privacy is not a valid concern: http://techcrunch.com/2010... - Jeff P. Henderson
I read the TC article. It is not a valid concern. - Louis Gray
And Louis Gray has gone all in folks! - Christopher Galtenberg
My e-mails are not interesting enough for you to see, but they wouldn't expose anything you shouldn't see. - Louis Gray
Louis, It disagree!!! - Jeff P. Henderson
his face seemed straight when he typed that. i watched using the Buzz plugin for his webcam ;) - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Good. :) Let's talk about it, Jeff. - Louis Gray
Louis, you are not my Mom, or a woman with an abusive ex-husband, or a top executive at a company. You need to take off your Goggles, sir. - Jesse Stay
That is true, Jesse. I am willing to take a maternity test to prove that to be the case. - Louis Gray
In 2020, will they say a contact is not a social connection? My guess is no. - Christopher Galtenberg
@Louis I totally agree with what you're saying. I can not say that i loved Buzz, i still prefer Friendfeed because of its features, better UI and etc. but concerns about Buzz, and Google signing treatys with communist regimes are ridiculous. @Jesse A contact is a highly social connection. the word Social does not mean a connection only belongs to web2.0 sites. social is social . media is media . a contact is a social connection and buzz is the media that provides it to you. It is not rocket science. - Üstün Üzüm
Louis, just because you don't care if every one in the world who cares to look, can see who you've ever sent an e-mail to, doesn't mean others don't. I'm having a hard time understanding why you cant see this as an issue? - Jeff P. Henderson
<grabs popcorn> - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Google didn't need to "turn on" this service either. They already have Orkut to manage social connections. It didn't need to be "turned on" for millions. They already have a service that does this - use it. - Jesse Stay
Assuming people know your email address, why would they not be able to see your public feed? - Christopher Galtenberg
Jeff, no matter how you build a product and no matter how many ways you test it, you are going to find exceptions to the rule and the process. - Louis Gray
Can I have access to your video rental and library history Louis, I want to make a social network out of it, profile you etc... Hang on, do I even have to ask? - Johnny from iPhone
And anybody who thinks Orkut is a solution is delusional. Orkut is not the answer. - Louis Gray
Don't go off topic, a visible email address is not a visible email inbox -- nor any corollary - Christopher Galtenberg
Johnny, my rental history for Netflix is available on my Blippy account. http://blippy.com/louisgray I also would like to share my TiVo stream with you. What's to hide? - Louis Gray
Well, Louis isn't helping here :) - Christopher Galtenberg
Louis, Orkut is definitely the answer. They already manage privacy. They're build for real social connections. Contacts are *not* social connections! Orkut's strength is in determining that. - Jesse Stay
"My e-mails are not interesting enough for you to see, but they wouldn't expose anything you shouldn't see. " - Then could you please make your email public? Are you certain all the people you email with will feel similarly? - Todd Hoff
Louis, agree, but in this case peoples lives, well being, reputation, marriages, businesses etc. could adversely affected by this over site by Google. - Jeff P. Henderson
Jesse, I recommend you stop using FriendFeed and use Orkut instead. Let me know how it goes. - Louis Gray
In fact I'd add Facebook and Twitter import as well. Don't reinvent the Social Graph. (and again, contacts are *not* social connections) - Jesse Stay
so what do you use for private communications (really.... just curious) ? - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Todd, as Christopher said, let's not go off topic. :) - Louis Gray
Louis, frankly, I'd love to be able to import my Orkut connections into FriendFeed, Facebook, etc. They don't make that easy right now. They need to be focusing on Orkut much more. People know what a social network is. They don't know what a service trying to make one out of their contacts is. - Jesse Stay
FF is going so slow I have to wait between new comments. Dang. Private communications are on e-mail, they're on Twitter DMs, they're on FB messages, FF DMs, phone calls, all over. Things get exposed all the time. I've had DMs on this network screenshotted, for example. E-mails get forwarded. You should always act as if it could be discovered and indexed. - Louis Gray
Orkut topic is a cul-de-sac - Christopher Galtenberg
http://www.youtube.com/watch... google CEO saying: "Anyone who has concerns about things they do to be heard should not be doing them in the first place" - Üstün Üzüm
Ustun is right again. - Louis Gray
Louis... Here's the thing... You CHOOSE to make that public. You presses buttons to make it happen. Other don't and wouldn't, that the point. Ask first. Data Portability is very important, I want the power to choose what information I share. I have nothing to hide, many do. - Johnny from iPhone
Louis, I'm not sure what more anyone can say to you to convince you that some people would like to keep the the list people they communicate with via e-mail private. Not everyone chooses to live in a glass house. - Jeff P. Henderson
The problem with Orkut is Google stopped building on it and pushing it. They never even tried to cross-integrate it (except while Kevin Marks was there, to an extent). Had they really focused on Orkut, used that for Reader sharing, Buzz contacts, etc., a lot of this would have mad a lot more sense. Right now it's just one big mess that no one knows what to make of because there is no organization. - Jesse Stay
I think Louis is outnumbered here - Jesse Stay
+++10^5 - LANjackal
Yup. Which is why they are working to fix some pieces. But the alternative was starting with an empty network which would have led to failure. I recommend they enable importing from other networks quick. - Louis Gray
Can we all agree that Buzz shouldn't expose anything *but* the public feed? And that the feed should be explicitly curated by the user? - Christopher Galtenberg
Jesse, I am not worried about numbers. We're all just talking. - Louis Gray
Jeff, I believe everybody should have the option to hide whatever they like. But I believe in the direction. It should be opt in and out. - Louis Gray
how about Google just buys FF from FB, gives it a breath of fresh hardware, and calls it good? :) - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Importing from other networks or an opt in to include your g-mail contacts would have been a much better starting point. I would love to be able to import all of my Friendfeed contacts without having to do it manually. - Jeff P. Henderson
Louis, it's not an empty network. Build out the contact importing in Orkut. Start from there. Add new features to Orkut and people will use it. Right now people don't understand why they have one social network here, and one social network there on Google. No one knows where their contacts are being shared and what they're doing. We need a central hub for all this stuff. Fine, name Orkut something else and re-brand, but the central hub is necessary. - Jesse Stay
Oooohhhhh... So it was OK because they wanted it to be a success... I see. Well, that's ok then... - Johnny from iPhone
Jeff, I agree, and I talked to them about this on Monday and Tuesday. They have 1000 things they want to do with the product, and they're working on making it better over time. - Louis Gray
Jesse, if you propose any network to anyone in the Valley starting with Orkut, it is DOA. - Louis Gray
Johnny, you know that's not what I said, my good sir. - Louis Gray
Louis, that's fine, then rebrand, but I don't think the name is the issue. I think it's Google's lack of focus on it that's the issue. - Jesse Stay
Jeff, for the FriendFeed employees, being purchased by Facebook had more upside than being purchased by Google. - Louis Gray
Maybe Google should have made Buzz an opt in Beta until it was working properly. They would have gotten all of this input before rolling it out to the genera public. - Jeff P. Henderson
Jesse, I understand where you are coming from, but Google needed an alternative, not enhancements. - Louis Gray
Jeff, that's one option as well. But they also wanted to commit to it and get people using it, and they have, successfully - more than any other social product they have had to date. - Louis Gray
Louis, I disagree. Orkut is a fine product. No one knows about it. - Jesse Stay
Jesse, again, I recommend you make Orkut your social media outpost and begin converting folks. I wish you the best of luck with your project. - Louis Gray
Orkut has good groups functionality. Not sure what else. - Christopher Galtenberg
I don't like Orkut - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Louis, I don't have the support of Google in doing that. They don't care about Orkut. When they do, then I'll do that, for sure. - Jesse Stay
Google chose Buzz as an op-out because it was good for Google, not the users. I think they are finding out quickly that this was not a wise decision. Yes, it is working, they have a record number of users in just 3 days, but personally, my opinion of Google as a company has dropped slightly because of how this was rolled out. - Jeff P. Henderson
Orkut's strength is in the social graph. It should be the central hub for your social graph at Google. Google isn't making it that, though. - Jesse Stay
Ya I know, was just wishful thinking - Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Jesse, you can keep waiting. Google is not going to commit to Orkut the way they have to Buzz. - Louis Gray
Jesse, Frinedfeed is an equally fine if not superior product and no one knows about it either. - Jeff P. Henderson
Louis, and I think that's a huge mistake, and a distraction. - Jesse Stay
Making Buzz the new Orkut is completely re-inventing the wheel, and why they're seeing so many complaints and issues. Stop reinventing the wheel - they should know this. - Jesse Stay
Jeff, I can't change your opinion on how you perceive a company. I think the way Google has handled the feedback, in an open, two-way conversation, is better than 99% of moves you see from its peers, like Twitter and Facebook, for starters. You know I love FriendFeed and the team here, but they too have been quiet about their plans since August, have they not? - Louis Gray
Buzz has won before they even started - Thomas Power
Jesse, I understand your point of view. Google and the entire planet disagrees with you. (Brazil being the exception) Go make Orkut magic. Invite me. - Louis Gray
Buzz is building a modern social network. It is FriendFeed for the masses, not FriendFeed for this group here. It's the easiest migration to any network from FriendFeed, period. Starting with connections that you personally selected in Google/Reader/Mail, etc. was their best shot. - Louis Gray
Louis, I can't until Google does. They're completely re-inventing the wheel with Buzz. I strongly doubt the entire world agrees with me on this, either. Read the comments on my last blog post. - Jesse Stay
I did read your post, and the comments, Jesse. Google will not be committing to Orkut the way they have commit to Buzz, so you can stop waiting. - Louis Gray
Heck, read the comments here - I think it's the whole world that disagrees with you - Jesse Stay
Louis, I do agree that Google has been very responsive and forthcoming with regard to comments and feedback. I will give them tons of credit for that. What I have a problem with is jamming Buzz down every Gmail users throat whether they wanted it or not, without first asking. - Jeff P. Henderson
Basically, what I am getting is Google can do what they like with my information because if I have nothing to hide, there isn't an issue. Is that the crux of the argument? - Johnny from iPhone
Orkut is a practically dead product. It is highly localised with some of the regions of the world and became their playground (just like what happened with friendfeed and Turkish blogging community and the Valley no one else uses it) Buzz is a fresh start and a better placement for an aggregation service than Orkut can ever be. Besides aggregation and Orkut ? c'mon ? - Üstün Üzüm
Jeff, that view's fine. No disagreement. - Louis Gray
Louis, and I'm saying that's a huge mistake, and why they're seeing so many issues from the start. When you reinvent the wheel you have problems like this. - Jesse Stay
Jesse, I disagree with your summary. I enjoy the discussion here. I don't think 3-10 people discussing it is representative. - Louis Gray
Louis, these 3-10 people aren't the only people saying so, either - Jesse Stay
The 'I don't care if people see my private information because I don't have anything to hide' argument is a VERY slippery slope. - Jeff P. Henderson
I love this. :) - Mark Evans
Johnny, I would not stretch the argument that far. You know I lean more that way than most, but I am not going black and white. The argument for me is that people are once again overreacting to change and being aggressively anti big company. Google is the most open big company we have ever seen. They are the most conversational big company we have ever seen and they do make changes. Why do we see people fearing them? It's silly at this point. - Louis Gray
Jesse, that's fine. There are also multiple political parties, operating systems, sexual orientations, religions, etc. The goal is not 100% agreement, but to eliminate the fearmongering. - Louis Gray
I haven't seen much anti-big company posts. Most of the posts I've seen have been legitimate, constructive criticisms. - Jesse Stay
Like the lady whose abusive ex-husband became exposed to her contacts and shares - Jesse Stay
Or journalists with secret sources exposed - Jesse Stay
I really don't understand why everyone is so scared. Someone can go to your profile and (possibly) see who your contacts on Buzz are. Those contacts MIGHT be people whom you have emailed before. So what? - Rahsheen
Large company syndrome? You mean like this one, Jesse? http://staynalive.com/article... - Louis Gray
Where is the story about the journalist having sources exposed? - Rahsheen
Open? The guys who just pulled out of Communist China after censoring search results? Really? - Johnny from iPhone
The reality is that journalists who are professionals use company e-mails not GMail, Jesse. - Louis Gray
Feels like we're straying off-topic. We were closer to the point when discussing whether a contact is a social connection (maybe we just agree to disagree), whether someone should be able to see your public feed if they know your email address, and what information someone should be able to discover via your public feed. And how much control you have over your public feed. - Christopher Galtenberg
Louis, that was a legitimate criticism. I wasn't saying "fear the big man" with that post. I was showing that Google is getting too large. That's a fact. - Jesse Stay
Yes, Johnny. I haven't talked about China because I am not an expert on it. But yes, they are pulling out because they did not agree with what the govt was doing there and they did not like being hacked. That's as pro-user as you can get. - Louis Gray
To Christopher's point, if someone knows my email address, can't they find me on just about ANY other social network? - Rahsheen
Jesse, I argue Google is not too large. They have become an incubator to many startups on the Google payroll, each given tremendous access to resources. Big does not equal bad. - Louis Gray
im curious - if you use gmail on your own domain (i forget what they call that) were those contacts exposed too? - Allen Stern
Rahsheen, it's been implied multiple places. Can't say I have the original source though: http://www.informationweek.com/news... - Jesse Stay
Christopher, anybody can have my e-mail address, my cell phone number, my public feed, my photos, everything. This is all silly. - Louis Gray
Louis, keep telling yourself that - Jesse Stay
No, Allen. I don't think Buzz supports it yet. - Rahsheen
Jesse, I am. I am telling you too. I thought we were being constructive? - Louis Gray
and I'm not saying big is bad - I never said that. I'm saying big has its own challenges and Buzz is an example of that. - Jesse Stay
Louis, do we get your sleep habits as well? - Jesse Stay
So then you recommend large companies with large installed user bases should not take big risks? - Louis Gray
You know when I sleep. What's the question there, Jesse? - Louis Gray
Jesse, it's probably been hinted at because it's a good way to get bloggers up in arms, but it's still an edge case. Once you get a list of a journalist's contacts, how do you know which is the informant? - Rahsheen
Censoring in the first place is sooooooo anti-user it's not funny. - Johnny from iPhone
Louis, I'm not saying that either. I'm just saying this risk was a mistake, and one that could have been done better by a smaller company due to the lack of corporate politics and structure. - Jesse Stay
So where is the line? how much personal information are you comfortable with letting the public see? Would you allow anyone to look at your checking account? how about your tax return, or your medical records? - Jeff P. Henderson
I'm with you Louis. My personal position is that I don't think that people should be able to find out information I haven't published because I have a public feed / email address / phone number. Using a website isn't publishing, without consent. I think here you disagree. - Christopher Galtenberg
Jesse, that's why we chose FriendFeed in the first place, right? Have I not put years of effort and tens of thousands of comments and connections into this place before Buzz existed? - Louis Gray
Rahsheen, you see the potential though, right? - Jesse Stay
BTW... Your openness is the fringe case - Johnny from iPhone
Johnny, I am not advocating censorship. You're distracting, sir. That's why they undid it with their latest move. - Louis Gray
Jeff, my bank data is on Blippy. http://www.blippy.com/louisgr... - Louis Gray
Louis, exactly (we are in agreement!) - and also why I say the way Google approached it was the wrong approach. I'm not sure they could have avoided it, but it could have been done better by a smaller company. - Jesse Stay
My medical records are boring. I don't even know my primary doc. Also HIPAA wouldn't let them share it. - Louis Gray
Jesse, not really. I bet you and Louis have some juicy contacts that I could use to benefit myself, but if I suddenly had access to all of them in the fashion that Buzz provides access, I wouldn't even know what I was looking at. There are too many assumptions that have to be made to make heads or tails of the data. - Rahsheen
and yes, I know when Louis sleeps - I have even seen him sleep ;-) - Jesse Stay
Jesse, I doubt that Googles size had much to do with the decisions made on Buzz features. Google seems to be able to allow small teams to work as they see fit on product releases better than just about any similar sized company I am aware of. - Jeff P. Henderson
No, you are saying Trust Google... I am showing examples why not to - Johnny from iPhone
Let's go back for those of you who think Google is evil and is out to share your contacts with the world. What are you afraid of? - Louis Gray
*waits for everyone to say how they're not scared of anything* - Rahsheen
Jeff, Google is still a big company - they still have budgets, departmental constraints, and the politics of any large company. There's no avoiding that. I've seen it everywhere, with all different types of organizations. - Jesse Stay
I just posted my social security number to Knol to verify my Google account. Should I have done that? (/via http://thenextweb.com/2010...) - Louis Gray
I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. It's just reality, and why it could have been done better. - Jesse Stay
Hah! I did the same, LG. :) - Rahsheen
Louis, did you check if the connection was secure? :-) - Jesse Stay
it really was asking for my vital statistics?? - Tatty Gibson
It was HTTPS, but I didn't care. That's the point, Jesse. The standard is secure enough. - Louis Gray
/me monitors LG's http connection - Jesse Stay
/me hacks Knol to get LG's SSN - Jesse Stay
Fine. And this changes my life how, Jesse? - Louis Gray
Louis, me doing it, nothing. Someone who has the guts to do something with it, everything. - Jesse Stay
We're not talking socials, though. Are we? We're talking about the privacy of your contacts. Or did I miss the segue into something else? - Rahsheen
Rahsheen, I don't know - I'm just going with Louis here :-) - Jesse Stay
I think he means if Google takes your contacts they also have access to your SSN - Jesse Stay
I think everyone gave up on this discussion. LOL. - Rahsheen
I'm sorry Louis. You are asking why should anyone be mistrusting of Google. My point is why should I trust Google, especially 100%. Google ins't evil, but sometimes bad roads are paved with good intentions. As I said before. At least ask first. - Johnny
*drops pant* - Louis Gray
I think we are nearing the dead horse beating part of this discussion... - Jeff P. Henderson
Seems that way. What did we miss, Jeff? - Louis Gray
Personally, I do not put 100% trust in any corporation or entity, to do so would be foolish. - Jeff P. Henderson
Louis, should we use a whip or a bat to beat the horse? ;-) - Jeff P. Henderson
I am against animal cruelty, as is Google. - Louis Gray
Jeff, you should use LG's SSN - Jesse Stay
I can't say that I don't trust Google 100%, I mean...we've got a lot of history. What I can say is that I'm willing to see what they're trying to do. I'm also tired of all these posts about Buzz's privacy concerns. Whether they're real or not for some minority of users, bloggers are just using them for sensationalism and to get visitors. - Rahsheen
The main question: everything you do on the web is public, true or false. Or should there be some actions you can perform, and you have to explicitly publish them for anyone else to see. - Christopher Galtenberg
I'd rather use his checking account number... - Jeff P. Henderson
My checking account number would bore you. - Louis Gray
Christopher, False You should have some control over what is done with your private information in an op-in fashion. - Jeff P. Henderson
^^ What Rahsheen said. - Louis Gray
i guess i need to update my post about what google knows about us - buzz seals the deal. - Allen Stern
I'm also with Rahsheen. I'm cool with some oops-es and some public debate on things we consider 'sacred'. - Christopher Galtenberg
I believe that once you give your information to any 3rd party, you have essentially made it public because you no longer have control over it. Therefore, anything you post online is automatically public. - Rahsheen
What about when companies give up using paper and have you use a website instead? Ie, your doctor, your tax accountant, etc - Christopher Galtenberg
Rahsheen. I live in a country who are considering censoring the internet without an opt-out function (Australia). I also work with sensitive information for a company that has little to do with the internet. I also have friends with medical conditions that they don't want disclosed. I also have friends who don't enjoy being in the public spotlight. I take this very seriously, especially when it is done with asking or the opt-in. "Well if you're on the net, privacy is dead' is not a sound answer. - Johnny
Most of you guys share more than I'd ever put in an email right here on FriendFeed for all the world to see and search for. What are you guys hiding in Gmail? Secret moon base plans? Are there lasers involved? - Mark Trapp
Mark, it's not about what I share, it's about those I share with - Johnny
I would share everything with Johnny. #mancrush - Louis Gray
Wow, Mark, what of mine do you want access to, I guess is the question. What do you think you have a right to? - Christopher Galtenberg
Rahsheen, yes, I have to agree that once you give up personal information, you loose control of what is done with it. - Jeff P. Henderson
And I with you Louis... But I have friends who wouldn't. Their considerations on privacy is valid just like ours - Johnny
Sorry, Johnny, but it's the ultimate answer. If you have a secret and you tell someone...anyone...you have given up your control and your privacy. You should weigh that in your mind before you share. - Rahsheen
I think marginalizing people's privacy concerns does nothing to help the argument that Google's strategy was good or necessary. Johnny's point about password protection is cogent and valid: that information was in a place with a high expectation of privacy. Google itself has FAMOUSLY refused to grant carte blanche access to outside entities to that information without a warrant. Until they made a piece of that information accessible themselves without asking. - Jennifer Dittrich
Rahsheen, I have to go wake up the twins from their afternoon nap. You are in charge of this thread until I return. - Louis Gray
LOL@LG - Rahsheen
A secret between two people is a secret. A secret between two people that is accessed by a third party is not. - Johnny
Christopher: I don't think I have a right to anything (moon base plans excluded), but there's a lot of personal stuff being piped into FriendFeed and other social networks with what appears to be only a tangential concern for privacy. Why assume Gmail would treat your data any other way? It's a third party who has access to your personal information. Treat the witness as hostile: if you want your private bits private, don't start by letting someone else control it. - Mark Trapp
Johnny: exactly. So stop using Gmail to keep secrets between two people. Gmail is the third party. - Mark Trapp
I wonder if everyone is even sure what, exactly, was made public. - Rahsheen
The post office is a third party. Tampering with other people's mail is a crime - Johnny
Rahsheen, I don't care what and wasn't made public. I never had the chance to find out, that's the point - Johnny
Mark: the question is what happens when the web is the only option? Ie, no paper or person-to-person options. We still will need to transact in society and also in private. - Christopher Galtenberg
Privacy is a legal right. If companies don't learn to respect it, they will find themselves highly regulated. - Tinfoil 2.0
Yeah, I'm with LG and Rahsheen on this one. The privacy issue is way overblown. Who cares whether someone might come over and see the list of people that I follow and that follow me. A human being has found the name of another human being. Stop the presses. - Chieze Okoye
Christopher and Johnny: get a contract that holds the third party liable for divulging confidential information, get a law passed (like HIPAA or mail-tampering), or roll your own stuff that only you and the parties with whom you want to share have access. Barring those options, I think you're always going to be disappointed with how third parties treat your information. - Mark Trapp
Louis, does this mean you are going to make your GMail contents public? You could wear a wireless webcam at all times too. - Tinfoil 2.0
Ultimately you're right, Chieze. It's just a bit disconcerting that people then take the "information is free" argument to much deeper levels. - Christopher Galtenberg
Then why have passwords? - Johnny
lets make a couple of things clear = 1. for google to grow, they need more of our personal info (this includes our contacts) 2. some people want to be more "public" because they need it for business purposes. 3. most people don't want to share things with anyone but the people they want to. - Allen Stern
Johnny: To give you the illusion of privacy so that you'll trust them before they pull the ol' switcheroo. If you think a password is a binding contract with terms implied, I suggest attempting to file a suit under that premise. More seriously, a password isn't a lock and key. It's a method by which to prove you are who you say you are. - Mark Trapp
The other thing that gets me about this is that the core issue is that the viewable list of followers/followed was turned on by default and was not easily discoverable by newbies (you could always turn it off, it was just buried in a menu somewhere). Google fixed it by the second day of wide release (put the check box right at the front of the sign in procedure). What are we arguing about again? - Chieze Okoye
To be honest, I don't think Buzz made anything public that wasn't already accessible by other means, which makes all this publicity surrounding the issue even more ridiculous. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. - Rahsheen
People's contacts, prioritized by most-contacted, was certainly not public information for millions of GMail users. - Tinfoil 2.0
Chieze, we are fixing the world in friendfeed threads, one scandal at a time. You did not know this? - Christopher Galtenberg
haha, exactly - Chieze Okoye
I really think that some people either have been in the bubble so long, or have such vested interests in forcing openness, that they are no longer objective about the needs and desires of the hundreds of millions of regular people out there. WHY does your right to live more publicly have to degrade the rights of those who want to retain the right to choose to live less publicly? - Tinfoil 2.0
In my circle, we didn't find that Google was even exposing the right contacts. Even in talking with family and friends, they don't see this as any more exciting than your contacts being visible on FB or Twitter. - Rahsheen
I really think some people have been under the illusion of privacy for so long they've lost sight of the fact that privacy is a myth that is better exposed than perpetuated. Your private information stopped being private the moment you let Google handle it. Google is not your confidant: they're a for-profit enterprise who gave you a free service specifically because they wanted to exploit your personal information. It's not evil, that's just how the world works. - Mark Trapp
Understood, Mark. But do you feel some pushback against that would be helpful? Or ultimately totally futile? - Christopher Galtenberg
Why, LogEx, do you think it has anything to do with what some people living in a bubble want? Maybe some people just think the outrage is not necessary and is being sensationalized. - Rahsheen
Mark, that's not what their legally-binding privacy policy says, that's not what many people's expectations are, and it invokes a serious misunderstanding of what privacy is. - Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, if you believe that Google was legally bound not to divulge your contacts, by all means sue them. Crying that it's not fair they did this doesn't really solve the problem, and just sets up a perpetuation of a victim-style mentality that leads to constant disappointment when faceless third parties do things you don't like. Hit them where it hurts. - Mark Trapp
So when a company violates expectations, everyone should just be quiet? - Tinfoil 2.0
I think Mark said to sue. - Rahsheen
Rahsheen, when expectations are violated, negative reaction should be no surprise. The fact that Google has addressed some of the issues so quickly is recognition of the errors. (didn't mean to delete this comment earlier) - Tinfoil 2.0
When those expectations are unreasonable and not protected by an actionable response, I don't know what complaining about it does. If you want to compel someone to keep your private information private, get a law passed or get a contract signed that holds them legally liable if they don't. - Mark Trapp
Dear Lord. Honestly, this issue was only an issue on the first day. Google has since fixed the basic issue at hand (made turning it off easier). Also, the behavior of the network will minimize the effects of this issue as well (ie: using the contacts was just a way to prepopulate your Buzz stream and I would wager that most everyone's Follow/Follower lists are different in make-up from their Address Book by now and going forward). - Chieze Okoye
Lawsuits are expensive, and harms may not occur right away. Free speech can be very effective. - Tinfoil 2.0
I'd put the last 50-100 years up as a constant example of, when it comes to privacy, the only effective means to compel third parties to keep information private is through legislation and enforcement, not speech. It's why things like HIPAA exist. - Mark Trapp
Yes, Google has addressed *some* of the issues, but the tone of this post was to ridicule people who don't want to live in a glass house. That kind of attitude is damaging. And please stop asserting that privacy is a single binary thing, and it's all or nothing, or that there is no such thing. - Tinfoil 2.0
Fair enough, but the tone of those raising a furor over this issue hasn't been helpful either. If you read some of this stuff at face value, Google is single-handedly bringing about the end of Western Civilization. By having a list of the people you read updates from be public by default. - Chieze Okoye
Chieze, that's not my position. Google messed up with defaults and non-obvious controls, but I still give Google higher marks than Facebook where privacy is concerned: http://www.google.com/buzz... But I really object when people minimize the importance of others' rights. - Tinfoil 2.0
Oh, I'm not saying that's your position, but I'm thinking in the shoes of LG when he wrote the original topic (like, the general tone of the articles/sh*tstorm that had to do with this issue which he was rebutting). - Chieze Okoye
Chieze, the issue wasn't with "having a list of the people you read updates from be public by default", it was people having access to your list of EMAIL contacts, everyone you have ever exchanged emails with on Gmail prioritized by frequency of contact. If I were a business and my contacts were divulged it cold be damaging. If I were a battered wife and my Ex-husband was suddenly able to see who I have been communicating with, It could be a dangerous issue. - Jeff P. Henderson
And again, we get to the hyperbolic overstatement of the issue (which, more than anything, is what I think that Louis was trying to get at). This is a list of people you follow, not "a list of everyone you've ever emailed ever." I have nearly 500 email addresses in my "My Contacts" group in Google Contacts. I started out Buzz with like 20 or so people in my Following list. And now I... more... - Chieze Okoye
I think my comment on this Buzz post sums up my thoughts on the paranoid people that are trying to hide who they follow and who follows them, among other things: http://www.google.com/buzz... - April Russo
by the way, I really wish I could line break. (>.<) - Chieze Okoye
τorƍue
Turned off Buzz. It freaks me out.
Why does it freak you out? - Paul Buchheit from iPhone
Did the same yesterday. It freaked me out. - Luca Sofri
freaked my organizational reality out. didn't want so much intermingling of critical and casual conversations. left unchecked it was going to be messy. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Paul, I live in a townhouse with a shared courtyard. In the courtyard, I can mingle chat, overhear, laugh, enjoy folks I know and folks I don't. FriendFeed and Facebook are like that courtyard. Google Buzz was like having the front door, my windows, my back door and my garage open as I'm talking to my sister, having a stranger listen in, and then follow my sister home. That is messed up. I feel sullied - and I am concerned about my less technically competent relatives. - τorƍue
So it's the fact that it automatically brings in your email contacts? - Paul Buchheit
Weird. - Mark
The funny thing is that I can easily envision and accept private conversations through FriendFeed or Facebook (and have used it for that), but not public conversations through Gmail. I am wierd. - τorƍue
Your social graph extracted and made public on your profile by default, that was bound to do damage. I turned it off as soon as a friend buzzed about it. I am sure RapLeaf has already mined the data -- thanks for the present Google. I like the idea of having one tool fulfill different messaging needs and supporting multiple social circles, but they forgot the privacy part. - Antonio Piccolboni
Same here.. turned it off.. I would probably keep using it if it was not within gmail though.. http://pavan.gunupudi.info/2010... - Pavan
It needs it's own page - agree on that one Pavan - Dan owns Comicsforge.com
Biting off your nose to spite your face? - Mark
wondered where all those unknown names came from...dizzying to say the least.. - Myrna
Daniel Dulitz
FriendFeed is a very finely crafted thing with many beautiful details.
like? - t toring
The way it clusters multiple shares of the same article, for instance. I also like how it manages the information flow. Very nice. On the other hand, those features aren't enough to get me not to switch to Buzz as soon as I can get everyone migrated over. :-) - Piaw Na
Two-stage hiding. The promotion semantics of Like and Comment. The visual design. When the realtime updates happen and when they don't. The way pagination works. One-paragraph comments. How it decides which names of likers to show. But the craft is not in the features, it's in the thing itself. - Daniel Dulitz
Totally agree. FriendFeed innovated in ways that will never be fully appreciated by most. In a way, it's like that Postal Service album. I'm kinda glad there wasn't a sequel, because where it froze in time was just perfect. - DeWitt Clinton
Agreed. The release of Buzz really underscores the attention to detail in FF and makes me appreciate the many design decisions that they got right. It's sad that the inovation had to stop after the acquisition. - Chip Ramsey
Agree. I feel strong information overload in buzz. Visual design of buzz is very ugly. Full of useless frames and icon. Why did google release such a immature prototype to the public? - Ted GUO
I've said it before: it's an elegant social networking site for a more civilized age. - Goran Zec
What really sets it apart is how clean it feels. I use it with the Helvetica theme (but Deja Vu Sans and banner hidden through adblock , since I dislike Helvetica), a greasemonkey script to color-code my friends' comments. It's all whitespace and well-formatted content. - Goran Zec
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