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Ian Mulvany › Comments
I wish there was a universal format for submitting peer-reviewed papers; authors could post papers (once!) & then the journals bid on them.
Mickey Schafer, Cesar Sanchez, Nir London and 32 other people liked this
Oh, now that's an interesting idea, Karen.
- Graham Steel
Cyndy Parr tweets ( http://twitter.com/cydparr... ) "This is kind of what PLOS One envisions -- it goes up there, and then it could get chosen to be part of a hub". Iz true?
- Karen James
Thanks, Graham. Having just had a paper rejected by two journals in a row, I'm fed up to here *points to own eyebrows* with spending hours if not days re-formatting to meet the ridiculously precise but in no way substantive guidelines of different journals. It's not even rewriting, it's just pointless fiddling and a silly waste of time. If the taxpayers only knew...
- Karen James
There are two issues at hand here. One, a universal format for submission, Two, a bidding process on papers. The Neuroscience Peer Review Consortium points to how the second part of this kind of deal is working right now in some disciplines (http://nprc.incf.org/), the really really sad part about the first issue here is that the big publishers don't care what format you submit in (let...
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- Ian Mulvany
+1 for more standards for paper submissions, starting with reference styles. And for allowing submissions in the NLM DTD format.
- Martin Fenner
Ian, you may say they don't care, but when one is submitting a manuscript, one is trying to do everything one can not to give the publisher any possible little excuse to reject your paper without review.
- Karen James
Second time in a week that someone stated "publishers don't care about format of submissions". Again I ask: if that's the case, why do all journals make a huge deal about it in their instructions to authors?
- Neil Saunders
As for universal format: easily solved by writing our papers on the web. Imagine a simple forms-based interface with fields for title, authors, abstract, introduction... Imagine a button in Google Docs that says "submit this document to <insert journal here>" !! But currently, we all like to use our own word-processing software on our own machines, then upload a document in a multitude of formats. It's going to take a big shift in thinking and work practices.
- Neil Saunders
What Neil said: if journals don't care, why do they make such a damn song and dance about it? Why not explicitly say you can *submit* in any basic AIMRAD format? Worry about format after acceptance: either the journal can send it to India per Ian above, or if they make the authors do it at least they only have to do it once. My next paper (quit laughing) is going out in basic AIMRAD...
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- Bill Hooker
Note: this is easier for me to do than many, because I've basically given up on an academic career as currently constructed.
- Bill Hooker
"it's just pointless fiddling and a silly waste of time. If the taxpayers only knew" I think they should / deserve to know!
- Björn Brembs
+1 Neil "why do all journals make a huge deal about it in their instructions to authors?" and +1 Björn "I think [the taxpayers] should / deserve to know!"
- Karen James
Neil & Bill: maybe "don't care" is to strong a phrase. A manuscript does need to be structured correctly to fit into the journal's content management system (an application note looks different to a letter looks different to a research paper), have images properly resized and references in the right format so that they can be processed by systems that convert to them links etc.
- Euan
Also: what happened to that Wolfram word processor for papers that was supposed to do what Neil mentioned above with Google Docs?
- Euan
Ah, http://www.wolfram.com/product... but doesn't look like there's a great deal of support for life sci journals (BMC aside)
- Euan
the publishers i know would be delighted to standardise to NLM DTD for submissions -- would save lots of editorial time and production costs -- the publisher i know best sends accepted papers to be manually turned into xml which can then be used for PMC deposition and the semi-automatic generation of the HTML and PDF versions. But things like the Publicon app have taught publishers that implementing the technology to do something doesn't mean that it will happen in significant quantities! :)
- Joe Dunckley
I used Publicon when it was released a few years ago. Essentially a dead product now. Lemon8-XML does what Neil describes as "Imagine a simple forms-based interface with fields for title, authors, abstract, introduction... ": http://network.nature.com/people....
- Martin Fenner
These interviews (about eXtyles and Editorial Manager) might be interesting to those that care about submitting papers in the NLM DTD format, as I specifically asked that question: http://network.nature.com/people... and http://network.nature.com/people...
- Martin Fenner
There is a nascent version of that working in neuroscience http://nprc.incf.org/. Journals have formed a consortium where if an author submits to one journal and it gets rejected, the author can specify that the reviews follow the paper to another journal so that it doesn't need to be re-reviewed. This was viewed as a way for papers that have nothing wrong with them but which don't fit the scope of the journal can be published more quickly and easily.
- Maryann Martone
What about replacing "papers" and "journals" in the subject line with "proposals" and funders?
- Daniel Mietchen
What if journals said here's our LaTeX template. Put the right text in the indicated field, lotion in the basket, and anything else won't be accepted.
- Mr. Gunn
@Daniel Mietchen: Yes, that too! @Mr. Gunn: What I'm advocating is that there's a single LaTeX (or whatever) template - not that you'd re-paste for each journal.
- Karen James
karen, yes. The idea being you give them the text and they do whatever they like with the formatting.
- Mr. Gunn
Aside from making life easier for authors, it would allow sane computational use of papers. With PDF, you don't even know which image a figure legend refers to, except by guess work. The difficulty is that the journals don't see it as their problem. The solution is for the authors to make it the journals problem
- Phil Lord
I like the idea, Karen. Publishing an exciting paper should not a be a torture (for us!)
- Betül
Getting access to research papers is already too expensive. Wouldn't it just be more so if we invited a bidding war on each paper? Write good papers, and submit them to PLoS.
- Ted Slater
I'd like something similar for the review process. Instead of having to register for each journal/publisher managing logins and passwords for each, have a clearing house that manages reviewer information that the journals subscribe to.
- John Hogenesch
what type of APIs would you need from scientific publishers if you needed to develop applications?
Michael Nielsen, Matthew Llewellin, Michael Habib and 16 other people liked this
A clean restful API with reasonable limits. Don't make it too opaque and restrictive
- Deepak Singh
RESTful. As complete as possible in terms of query methods and data returned. Works with all commonly-used languages (easy if RESTful and returns XML/JSON). Something like NCBI EUtils, but without the weird query key stuff. Basically, return IDs from keyword search, allow document retrieval via those IDs.
- Neil Saunders
make every page available with .json extension!
- Ilya Grigorik
Ones that don't cost hobby developers and startups $0.05/API call (looking askance at you, Wolfram!)
- Mr. Gunn
I'm sick of RESFUL interfaces. As Richard Akermann mentioned some time ago, a proliferation of APIs at the end of the day doesn't actually help, as you have the learning curve to get over each time you want to hook up a new API. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that sticking your data into a RDF or pseudo-RDF store and plopping a SPARQL endpoint on it is the answer. OK, so SPARQL is...
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- Ian Mulvany
Depends on the kind of application, right? RDF is good for making datasets available but you can't parse it easily with Javascript, or fetch it cross domain, hook it up to other stuff with Yahoo! Pipes, give people one line usage examples with cURL etc. etc. I reckon REST and JSON is the way to go if you want to encourage mashups. Also, no signed requests. :) In terms of content whatever is exposed via the website should be exposed via the API.
- Euan
Thanks fir the mention Ian. What I said more recently in my Access 2009 presentation is we should be mindful of our objectives when assessing API vs. data-level access. API gives more control for the provider, but may limit the scope of the applications that the provider can get from developers. Raw data gives developers much more freedom, but may create management issues as implementations proliferate.
- Richard Akerman
from BuddyFeed
Clear licensing information would be a big plus as well. If it is tied down or limited use that really needs to be clear. Obviously I have an ulterior motive here because if its made clear then less people will probably use it :-)
- Cameron Neylon
Hi everyone, I'm a Product Manager that works for Rafael. Curious to hear your thoughts on if you have a search and query API for our SD or Scopus content, what is a max number of results you'd like to receive to build a good app? Are there any APIs from our content you'd really like?
- Michelle Lee
I am trying to make a list of wave robots and gadgets that I have tried.
Please feel free to add list of robots and gadgets (or links) that you have tried, tested or heard with a one line description.
Paul Bacchus, Carl Fulp, Laura Norvig and 12 other people liked this
Gadgets: Add equation - to add equations to a wave Map Gadget : to embedd a map in to a wave Yes/No/May be Gadget - to add a quick poll to a wave
- Khader Shameer
Robots: calcbot@appspot.com - Do some easy calculations inside a wave bitly-bot@appspot.com - Add bit.ly functionality to a wave emoticonbot@appspot.com - Add emotions to your wave easypublic@appspot.com - makes the wave public tweety-wave@appspot.com - tweet from wave wavehangman@appspot.com - self-explanatory :) embeddy@appspot.com - generates HTML to embed the wave on any page (useful for getting the (globally unique) Wave ID as well) elizarobot@appspot.com - a chat bot
- Khader Shameer
Thanks to @sparkymat for sharing his list of Robots.
- Khader Shameer
helpmeigor@appspot.com reference management, janey-robot@appspot.com interface to journal name author disambiguation service. Though off topic, we are arranging a science wave hackday in london (http://blogs.nature.com/wp...), search for waves with the tag "swlhd" and you'll find us. The source for both of these is available, http://github.com/IanMulv... and http://code.google.com/p...
- Ian Mulvany
are the source codes available for any of these robots? thanks for sharing the list!
- Mike Chelen
http://techpp.com/2009... - ultimate list of Google wave robots and gadgets
- Khader Shameer
http://sites.google.com/site... - The official Google Wave extension list
- Khader Shameer
Hi Mike. My first stab source code can be found here... http://mcisb.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc... Source code is also available for the emoticonbot somewhere, too.
- Neil Swainston
Neil, cool thanks!
- Mike Chelen
Here goes blast, synthetic biology and other science robots http://www.abhishek-tiwari.com/2009...
- Abhishek Tiwari
synbiowave looks fun, and it is on sourceforge http://sourceforge.net/project...
- Mike Chelen
Khader, thanks for starting this list. I have been compiling bots and gadgets here: http://j.mp/gw-bots as well, I think the only one not on this this is sweepy-wave@appspot.com that removes empty blip waves. I hope everyone feel free to contribute to the site I started, because like this list, it is meant to grow and serve as a resource for the wave community.
- Justin H. Johnson
Justin, thanks for sharing the details about the resource.
- Khader Shameer
A Cabinet Of Web2.0 Scientific Curiosities - http://www.slideshare.net/IanMulv...
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Rafael Sidi, Brian Krueger - LabSpaces, Sung W. Lim and 4 other people liked this
Slide 5 - has that information ever been available before? Makes interesting reading...
- Cameron Neylon
The data comes from: http://www.rin.ac.uk/, there is a mistake in my slide, I missed one word in the slide attribution, doh!
- Ian Mulvany
Ah ok - I thought it was actual data on Nature's income which came as a shock...
- Cameron Neylon
What are the current feelings on ResearchGate starting it's own preprint (self archive) service? http://blog.researchgate.net/index... Had a talk with my boss about preprint servers on our way home from a meeting. He thought it was dumb, "They'll all end up in PMC eventually."
Daniel Mietchen, François Dongier, Graham Steel and 9 other people liked this
Speaking as an IR manager, yes, a repository perceived as redundant is a tough sell. If I were you I'd turn the question around. "What could a self-archiving service capture that won't ever end up in PMC? Is it worth the work?"
- D0r0th34
Great point.
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
I live the idea of decentralized repositories, but only if there's a widely-used standard way of attaching data to the papers (via rel attributes or whatever) so that they can be searched for. I'm waiting to see what they do here.
- Mr. Gunn
I too wonder of the value of this. However, if they provide programmatic access to get the data out, then I dont care where it was origionally "depsosited"
- Frank
Mr. Gunn: check out OAI-ORE.
- D0r0th34
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
- Mr. Gunn
@Frank, I'd be surprised if they did. Most of their "tools" require a registration and login to use them. It seems redundant to me. Why choose researchgate when submission to PMC is automatic, or you could use a much better established service like arXiv
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
I thought a preprint server was for material that may or may not be published, but a self-archive was specifically for versions of a published article. Am I wrong about this?
- Ian Mulvany
Nope, your definition is right. Researchgate's plan is to get one or the other. If the publisher doesn't allow self-archiving, then they want the pre-print. I'm not sure how legal self archiving on another company's site and in their database is though. Seems to go against the spirit of the idea of self archiving
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
arXiv is a different animal than PMC, so yes, Ian, you're right. Technically, Brian, they're saying they are just acting as the blog host in this case, which I'll buy. I don't own the server my blog is hosted on.
- Mr. Gunn
@MrGunn, I guess, but that's running in the gray area. I'm sure publishers will see it more black and white than that.
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
ResearchGATE currently has a non-trivial number of members (140,000), according to an email message that arrived in my inbox today. A copy of the message is at: http://tillje.wordpress.com/2009...
- Jim Till
yeah, Jim, seems like everyone got that email. They also say they're the first to make an directory of self-archived manuscripts and so on. Some think the numbers to not be what they say: http://www.nextgenerationscience.com/science...
- Mr. Gunn
Personally, Brian, I care about how the publishers want to see it about as much as BoraZ cares what their business model is going to be (http://scienceblogs.com/clock...). I care much more about my rights as an author.
- Mr. Gunn
@Mr. Gunn, my own limited experience with the social networking aspects of ResearchGATE is that the groups I've joined (Science & Publication 2.0, Science Communication, Research in Canada, Feedback) don't compare very favorably with Twitter plus FriendFeed. For a more positive review, see: http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2009...
- Jim Till
@MrGunn, I know ;) Just sayin... @Jill, stating the 140k number is very disingenuous. You can have 3 million members, but if they do nothing, then the community isn't very useful. Researchgate's most active area is the methods forum and there's maybe 5 posts a week in there. What are the other 139,995 people doing there??
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
"I care much more about my rights as an author" - keep going, @MrGunn, I like the idea of strengthening publishing cultures where authors keep their copyright in the first place. Generally speaking, as long as an open repository (OR) is fully oai-compliant and everyone can see which of the files claim to have passed peer review, all's fine with me (who has lately started to run an OR...
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- Claudia Koltzenburg
Yes, Claudia, that's my take as well. Providing a repository is great, let's have more of that, but make sure it's open and can be part of a web of other open repositories.
- Mr. Gunn
It'll be interesting to see how access to the DB will be handled. Currently you have to be registered to do anything there. The hardest part of getting something like this to work will be compliance. It'd be great if people uploaded and provided their own metadata to a repository like this. But I can see populating this DB with metadata being tedious.
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
does e.g. Mendeley provide an oai-compliant OR yet?
- Claudia Koltzenburg
@Brian. To address the 'tedious-ness' issue: could not metadata for individual (or sets of) papers be harvested from CrossRef on the fly? They offer an OAI-PMH service: http://www.crossref.org/help... (note: I've only recently started looking at OAI, so dunno if this is a silly proposition).
- 'Mummi' Thorisson
@Brian, so far, I've uploaded the full text (PDF) of only one publication into the ResearchGATE repository. There was no requirement to provide metadata. See: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...
- Jim Till
Just added a 2nd full text (another PDF). I've also added a couple of comments about this publication. Haven't tested whether or not the comments can include html tags (can't preview or edit comments): https://www.researchgate.net/publica...
- Jim Till
That's pretty nice. It automatically found the metadata for the article? Or did you have to plug in the title somewhere when you uploaded?
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
@Brian, the title of the 2nd publication was obtained (by ResearchGATE) from arXiv. However, the arXiv version of the full text is in html, so I uploaded the PDF (the version in Learned Publishing). BTW, I've just tried adding links to a Comment in ResearchGATE, and they work (with no added html tags required). See: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...
- Jim Till
Claudia, I know Mendeley is currently looking into OAI compliance and it would probably be easy to implement. In fact, they're at the point where they want more input from librarians about this sort of thing, so now would be an ideal time to bring this up. I'll see if I can get a more substantial answer for you.
- Mr. Gunn
Claudia: To answer your question, we're not OAI-compliant yet, but we're looking into releasing APIs to our database soon. Also, as I mentioned during a conversation with Peter Suber back in March (http://www.earlham.edu/~peters...), we've been encouraging our users to self-archive on their Mendeley profiles as well. So if ResearchGate is "the first...
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- Victor / Mendeley Team
@Victor, when they launched they were also the first social network for the sciences (ignoring the fact that Nature Network had been up for a year already).
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
Surely the difference with ResearchGate is that they automatically check with RomeoSherpa so that you know whether the publisher of a given paper allows self archiving. Mendeley, SSRN, RePEc etc don't do this
- LibRat
Sounds great! Doing as good and thorough a job as PMC would be a challenge, but it's worth trying and the more decent options researchers have the better.
- Mike Chelen
@LibRat - good point, thx
- Claudia Koltzenburg
@Victor / Mendeley Team, thank for sticking your head out here, in my view of the matter, an automatic check with RomeoSherpa would certainly be a must for any oai open repository (OR) projects for Mendeley, too :-)
- Claudia Koltzenburg
"140,000 members" - but how many signed up, looked around and never went back? And can you delete a ResearchGate account? There are sites (yes, you SciLink) which don't provide a delete link and ignore repeated pleas for deletion. One way to keep the numbers up.
- Neil Saunders
Any concerns about archiving a thread like this one via WebCite and then linking to it in a blog post?
- Jim Till
Neil: I agree, total registered users isn't the best metric - would be more helpful to measure active users, or average time spent on the site.
- Mike Chelen
Jim, you may have already done this, but this item does have a permalink: http://friendfeed.com/the-lif.... Surely it's better to link directly to the item than via a secondary site (also a problem with shortened URLs)?
- Mr. Gunn
@mike, they'd never ever do that. There's a reason they throw around that bloated number.
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
@Mr. Gunn, how permanent is the FF permalink URL? I`ve been assuming that both the long URL (http://friendfeed.com/the-lif...) and the short one (http://ff.im/89VkB) will rot. Hope that I'm wrong.
- Jim Till
Jim: as far as web pages go, these are pretty reliable. the URL would stop working if the group name were changed, in which case the ff.im link would still work, unless the topic were deleted. it's also good practice to save a mirror with a bookmarking site such as http://diigo.com or http://sharecopy.com
- Mike Chelen
I've linked to this thread in a comment on my blog: http://tillje.wordpress.com/2009...
- Jim Till
This thread has also been bookmarked on Connotea: http://www.connotea.org/article...
- Jim Till
Getting back to the start of this discussion, why should I be interested in archiving in a repository if there is PubMedCentral? Shouldn't I rather be interested to get more stuff into PubMedCentral, e.g. by starting PubMedCentral UK (already in the works) or PubMedCentral Germany? Both Archiving and searching in a central database is much easier.
- Martin Fenner
We shouldn't forget that PMC has a limited remit. If you are outside that remit (e.g. publishing plant work, or any non-biomedical field) then your papers are not welcome in PMC. Perhaps ResearchGate has a role for these fields.
- Frank Norman
@Claudia Re. how long will PMC be around, I think it has a better chance of longevity than the majority of online services. It is part of the Natl Lib Med, which is part of NIH. PMC is also mirrored in UK at the Brit Lib and (soon) will be mirrored elsewhere. It would take a lot for all these to fail.
- Frank Norman
@Frank, yes, well, this was a rather implicit footnote of mine pointing to a prevailing cultural habit that seems to say something like: the biggest must surely be those who last longest... hence deserve most trust by scientists, too. hm... @Martin, any decentrality - centrality debate is of course highly important in Computer Science (and LIS) fields. My take on this is that what seems...
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- Claudia Koltzenburg
Desperate need to vent: Large scale EU project to develop an automated data analysis pipeline "Our policy is not to make source code available". Answer to follow on question (do you expose an API to the web services you've described?) "What's an API?".
Duncan Hull, Andrew Lang, Thomas Brox Røst and 8 other people liked this
sounds like an Absolutely Posterior Initiative
- Daniel Mietchen
jesus wept
- Ian Mulvany
Blibble.
- f1000
ARRRRRRRRRGH.
- D0r0th34
Same group later complained that the introduction of a new (XML) data format would require them to completely re-write their code...
- Cameron Neylon
Richard Klancer disliked this
- Richard Klancer
p.s. thanks all for re-inforcing that I'm not completely mad...really needed to go outside and cool down after that...
- Cameron Neylon
There is madness in this situation. None of it is yours.
- D0r0th34
What was worse was the lack of pushback on that statement - but the data format session later was better. "We will release this under some open source licence, we just need to work out the details of the US govt contribution and how that is flagged..."
- Cameron Neylon
Daniel Mietchen to Daniel's feed, Science 2.0, Science in the long run, FF-for-scientists, Research Funding 2.0
A sketch of a rating scheme for science online: http://twitter.com/EvoMRI... gave http://microrevie.ws/reviews... , as per http://microrevie.ws/how-to .
Cameron Neylon, Meryn Stol, Hope Leman and 9 other people liked this
Limitations: (1) 140 chars is too limited to accomodate a typical URI, (2) needs to be coupled to author ID, (3) only one rating dimension as of now.
- Daniel Mietchen
if we could aggregate a whole bunch of different comments from different sources and translate them automatically to fit? Or provide a link to the comment rather than the full text of the comment?
- Cameron Neylon
from twhirl
Ok, now I've looked properly. Would probably need to build a slightly more intelligent service but if you could parse links then there are two very nice things here. One is linking id, and review via URLs but the other is that this actually matches the PubSub-Syndicate mechanism that Jon Udell talk a lot about much better than commenting on websites (...now where is that half written blog post...?)
- Cameron Neylon
the comment text from people usually contains even more helpful information than rating metrics
- Mike Chelen
Daniel: what about linking by DOI?
- Mike Chelen
DOIs can still be very long - plus you'd probably want to give them in the http form so that makes them even longer. Mike, agree the text can be more useful but if it is held somewhere else then the tweet only needs to reference it via a shortened link was what I was thinking
- Cameron Neylon
The DOI problem could be solved if the @hreview service were to expand the shortened URL per default.
- Daniel Mietchen
Also, we need a URI scheme for anything on the web, from blog entries to wiki edits to @hreview ratings.
- Daniel Mietchen
Cameron:probably the posts could contain shortened DOI URLs that were expanded in the underlying hReview
- Mike Chelen
Daniel: can the hCard support be used to integrate with other author ID systems?
- Mike Chelen
Yes, hCard can do this: http://microformats.org/wiki... . What we need is a functional author ID scheme.
- Daniel Mietchen
What would be a suitable license for ratings? http://www.opencritics.de/ use http://creativecommons.org/license...
- Daniel Mietchen
CC-BY-ND certainly makes sense for the pure values (text or numbers) of the ratings, but isn't it too restrictive for reuse, e.g. aggregation?
- Daniel Mietchen
Daniel: there are clauses to specifically allow collections, but it's never been clear to me exactly how ND applies to subsets or programmatic reuse.
- Mike Chelen
Nor to me, Mike, but the opencritics are open to criticism (I had to bring that) and suggestions, and have lawyers to sort such things out properly. More to come on that by tomorrow - just had them on the phone.
- Daniel Mietchen
Examples of CC-licensed ratings provided by OpenCritics: http://bit.ly/JwQiH (simple), http://bit.ly/42H3l3 (more detail) - scroll down in both cases.
- Daniel Mietchen
Further thoughts on such rating schemes for science: http://bit.ly/2xJpKD , http://bit.ly/18jc9o and http://bit.ly/5HzJR .
- Daniel Mietchen
Emerging impact measures based on @tweprints stats are described at http://bit.ly/FZp7a .
- Daniel Mietchen
hmm, 140 characters won't work. We need an article social activity aggregation service, could then be mirrored onto twitter or where ever. Like stramosphere, but just for articles. Euan should write it.
- Ian Mulvany
Should note that CrossRef is thinking of creating alternative shortened DOIs that could address some of these problems. Working name is "toydoi". Advantage of CrossRef is we could avoid spam-plague faced by traditional URL shorteners. Would be good to hear from interested parties to understand use cases.
- Geoffrey Bilder
Ian, I think that "article social activity aggregation service" is a good description for what Mendeley are up to - still a bit rough a toy, but improving very fast.
- Daniel Mietchen
Geoffrey, good to read that. However, the length of DOI is just one problem, and more pressing from my point is to develop a DOI-like URI scheme for anything cited in a scientific context (and for anyone citing, too), e.g. via automatic deposit at places like Webcitation or Portico (and using some sort of author ID). And before going public with that working name, they might wish to invite comments from speakers of Vietnamese.
- Daniel Mietchen
So we've also been thinking a little bit about how to assign identifiers to new forms of scholarly communication- thinks like blogs, wikis, data sets, etc. Some background can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/m68jlq
- Geoffrey Bilder
Yes, that's useful background. Do you have an update on the current situation?
- Daniel Mietchen
hReview supports multiple rating dimensions if the site could use it
- Mike Chelen
Google are about to roll out what they call "Rich snippets" for selected sites, harvesting info provided via hreview, RDFa or similar: http://bit.ly/3bGVlE & http://bit.ly/SxWES . Would be nice to see this coupled (for scientists logged in with their author ID) with ratings like at PLoS ONE.
- Daniel Mietchen
Microformats for biological (and possibly even other, e.g. chemical) species ( http://microformats.org/wiki... ): "Imagine viewing a web page with a reference to a species - and being able to use an add-on to you browser to be taken directly to information about that species, on, say, Wikipedia, or Wikispecies, or Google Images, or another site, such as in an academic database, of your choosing."
- Daniel Mietchen
@Daniel - check out NameLink from Enc of Life - exactly what you are talking about. http://labs.eol.org/...
- Peter Binfield
Thanks, Peter: Yes, EoL was in the mind of the writer of this phrase (he also quotes Wilson), but NameTag and the species microformat are two different approaches to this goal, and only the latter bears some resemblance to article-level metrics.
- Daniel Mietchen
A similar project: http://project.guiguan.net/ScoreFi... .
- Daniel Mietchen
Interesting discussion going on at http://groups.google.com/group... .
- Daniel Mietchen
Wonder what might be a good basis for building a similar service?
- Mike Chelen
Writing a piece on Wave in Wave. If you're interested in commenting (and have an account - sorry!) then drop me a line.
Khader Shameer liked this
i'll have a look
- Ian Mulvany
Cheers, I'm off on my way home now but will log back in when I get there and finalize sometime this evening.
- Cameron Neylon
in the middle of my presentation, hope its going ok :/
Arikia, Egon Willighagen and Cameron Neylon liked this
Anxiously waiting in the Wave... :)
- Egon Willighagen
we can't tell from out here I'm afraid...
- Cameron Neylon
from twhirl
do you think that means he was early perhaps and we missed it...?
- Cameron Neylon
that thought did cross my mind too... I hope not... I was around since about 16:30 local time, but did suffer some 15 minutes of network loss...
- Egon Willighagen
I arrived a little late I guess but we'll see...need to go in a second to finish the cleaning up...
- Cameron Neylon
from twhirl
Me too... need to get the pizza ready for dinner
- Egon Willighagen
Hi, thank's guy's! I got to the demo at 17.35 Slovenian time, but after about 5 mins wave froze on me, so I switched back to the slides. I'll post them over the next few days. I really appreciate you getting on line to help out, sorry that I was not about to connect :(
- Ian Mulvany
sorry - against me plans, I was offline at the time...
- Björn Brembs
am at ACTIVE summer school, in Bled, will be talking tomorrow on web2.0
Ah, meant to say, on web2.0 and science, any google wavers out there up for helping me out in a demo?
- Ian Mulvany
What time will that be? Might be able to help out depending on scheduling...
- Cameron Neylon
I'll be talking between 16:00 -- 18:00 local time, and I'd like to demo near to the end of the presentation. I'd like to just have someome that I can demo real-time editing with
- Ian Mulvany
I'm online all day...
- Egon Willighagen
it would be great if you could pop into a wave for about 10 min!
- Ian Mulvany
I'll see what I can do but that time might not work out well for me. Have to clean up car for sale as well as sort out garden...oh and write a paper... ;)
- Cameron Neylon
I might be able to hang out there as well, just add me to the wave!
- Björn Brembs
Breakout 3: Author identity – Creating a new kind of reputation online: Duncan Hull, Geoffrey Bilder, Michael Habib, Reynold Guida
Cameron Neylon, Deepak Singh, Ginny and 6 other people liked this
Geoff Bilder starts with a definition of terms.
- Martin Fenner
...and with a Mini Me
- Allyson Lister
The same person can have many profiles.
- Martin Fenner
....and even more Mini Mes - one for each persona
- Allyson Lister
identifier for a profile; multiple personas for each person, each with their own profile
- Allyson Lister
Why do we want an author identifier: to have a scholarly record.
- Martin Fenner
Two separate issues of identity: security and access control vs. identification.
- Martin Fenner
Nice slide depicting the "scholarly record"
- Daniel Mietchen
Requirement for access control systems are far higher than for identification systems.
- Martin Fenner
Scope of author identifier: international, interinstitutional and interdisciplinary.
- Martin Fenner
CrossRef has assigned DOIs to scholarly work as far back as the 1600s.
- Martin Fenner
CrossRef deals with 200.000 DOIs per month, on average 5 authors per paper. Whatever we build has to scale.
- Martin Fenner
99% accuracy is a disaster.
- AJCann
hmm, I look forward to the discussion, I've heard all of the content of the presentations before, though they are being presented well here.
- Ian Mulvany
I agree, the interesting part is how we move forward from here. We have the right panel for that.
- Martin Fenner
Bouncing users from one site to another is a disaster - looks like phishing to most users. We're trying to train them to avoid this!
- AJCann
Duncan Hull summarised the weaknesses of OpenID nicely.
- Daniel MacArthur
Geoff Bilder made a strong case against OpenID and other distributed identification systems here: http://network.nature.com/people...
- Martin Fenner
Scopus Author ID. Pros: automated, validated by publications, 99% precision, 95% recall. Cons: Impersinal: 99% precision, 95% recall.
- Martin Fenner
auto-generated about 7 million profiles of current researchers, pretty impressive.
- Ian Mulvany
Scopus Author ID allows feedback from authors.
- Martin Fenner
no discussion so far about foaf, "rel=me" or knitting the web together in a way that enables auto-aggregation of profiles.
- Ian Mulvany
What we notice is that the number of multi-author papers has started to increase, while single-author papers have decreased.
- Allyson Lister
ok, now this is getting interesting, we have someone from Thompson, so we have AuthorID, ResearcherID, OpenID and proponents of DOI as ID all sitting at the same table, I think they should have a jello wrestling contest to determine which system gets adopted.
- Ian Mulvany
scopus's good stats are surely skewed by so many many single publication authors. my experience of scopus is not so good.
- Joe Dunckley
Author identities can help with the discovery process.
- Martin Fenner
Introduction of ResearcherID: open and secure.
- Martin Fenner
researcherid is concerned to be secure and open, secure in that the researcher controls their profile, and open in that they provide widgets, that allows the researcher to link to their profile (I don't know if that is the same kind of open as the kind of open that I'm used to thinking about)
- Ian Mulvany
have institutional tools to allow institutions to batch create profiles, could be smart. now Q & A.
- Ian Mulvany
ResearcherID uses Web of Science as its publication database. Yep, really open.
- Bob O'Hara
there is a lot of tip-toe talk to avoid a turf war going on here
- Allison Coles
Go robot blogger!
- Duncan Hull
+1 Joe re: Scopus stats. The 99% figure seems a bit too high!
- Euan
Well, my question to the panel did not tip-toe! ("Do all these systems talk to each other?"). Have also heard Scopus not as good as that via some other conference report.
- Maxine
@Euan - I agree, from using Scopus and being very frustrated with their author profiles, there's no way they can claim 99% precision - but what do precision and recall actually mean in this case? I would understand accuracy huh.
- Christina Pikas
My slides: http://mchabib.com/2009...
- Michael Habib
I read through these posts and I worry that the vision that Geoff espouses is so far off as to never gain traction in the marketplace. It's similar to XRI, which requires registration through a central service. While it's fair to point out that we "lease" domain names, there are legal protections for them as well. Anyway, it's an interesting discussion — glad OpenID is part of it.
- Chris Messina
Hi Chris, I am working out a response, but in the meantime, a related and more detailed presentation of Geoff's is available here: http://www.gen2phen.org/documen... Duncan's presentation focused on OpenID more than ours. All our presentations should be up on Nature Proceedings in good time.
- Michael Habib
My slides from this session on authenticating scientists with openid are here http://www.slideshare.net/dullhun... I think all the slides will eventually be available through http://precedings.nature.com
- Duncan Hull
@Chris - the reason why centralized author/contributor IDs is expected to work is that there's a big incentive for the various stakeholders (authors and publishers alike) to sort out what is a pretty poor situation in the scholarly publishing domain, with the author name problem and whatnot. There's precedence for this: DOIs for scholarly publiations and associated social/technical infrastructure.
- 'Mummi' Thorisson
Yeah — I understand. I guess I think that an OpenID-style solution is what should be the foundation of such a system — and that the centralized service should act as a "metadata provider" — basically like Gravatar: input a particular author's URI/URL, get out a list of known/verified publications that they contributed to.
- Chris Messina
@Chris - that's where opinions start to differ :) Some argue Contributor IDs should *be* OpenIDs, while others argue for a dedicated identifier and OpenID should be the authentication mechanism (one of perhaps several, including Shibboleth, username/pwd etc.) for contributors to sign in to manage their profile and interact with it in other ways.
- 'Mummi' Thorisson
...a major point supporting the latter is that the contributor identifiers need to exist for authors who never obtain an OpenID and aren't likely to, say one-time authors who never published more than that one article in 1994, or are inactive for some reason or another, e.g. deceased.
- 'Mummi' Thorisson
It's worth point out that Geoff's perspective comes from CrossRef where centralization has been essential to maintain active redirects for DOIs. There is a serious social problem for research that means we have really bad users of technology combined with really serious requirements for reliability. That said given the mess there is going to be in this space keeping registration,...
more...
- Cameron Neylon
@Cameron - yeah, that's right. You da man :P
- 'Mummi' Thorisson
I'll just leave it up to you to fix shall I Mummi?
- Cameron Neylon
This may be useful for the discussion: summary and meeting minutes from the IRBW2009 workshop on research identity - http://www.gen2phen.org/blogs...
- 'Mummi' Thorisson
Far out: Speculations on science communication 50 years from now: John Gilbey
Martin Fenner, Bora Zivkovic and AJCann liked this
John introduces the University of Rural England, a fictional place where students and faculty suffer the same weaknesses.
- Martin Fenner
Dead tree media will become history?
- AJCann
Google wave will be history?
- AJCann
+1 AJCann
- Bob O'Hara
i can tell my future involves a nice cold pint :)
- Ian Mulvany
Forget the monkeys, black swans loom over the horizon.
- AJCann
For many people the present is the future. People born before 1980 still know a world without computers and for us a lot what we use today is futuristic.
- Martin Fenner
Ian, so your clairvoyance only extends about 90 minutes into the future?
- Victor / Mendeley Team
Them, Martin? Are you really that young?
- Bob O'Hara
Climate change and tipping points?
- AJCann
when the lizards rule, experiments on monkeys will be a lot less controversial
- Ian Mulvany
At least Second Life will be history.
- AJCann
Ian, they turned off the air condition so we buy more at the bar downstairs ;).
- Martin Fenner
Bob, I'm younger in my mind. But was born before Woodstock took place.
- Martin Fenner
A backup is not an archive.
- AJCann
We need robust mechanisms to protect knowledge offline.
- AJCann
This is the third time in a few weeks that I heard about the importance of making backups of digital information as a great challenge in the future. Have to think more about this. John was showing an old floppy disk with a PhD thesis on it. My thesis is on a floppy disk written with a word processor/operating system that has been dead for many years.
- Martin Fenner
You don't have paper copies of your thesis Martin? I do of mine.
- AJCann
Of course I have paper copies. This just shows that analog formats might still be the safest format for storing information.
- Martin Fenner
The technology horizon is 5-7 years. Predictions beyond that are speculation.
- AJCann
Question is: Why hasn't the future happened yet? :-)
- AJCann
Sigh. Paper is an inherently unstable medium. We should be publishing on stone (Twitter -> Chipper?)
- AJCann
(This was a great way to finish the presentations at Solo09. Thanks!)
- Allyson Lister
http://twitter.com/stressr... "As a geologist, I find "set in stone" to be a very odd metaphor for permanence."
- Bora Zivkovic
so what exactly happens at the "technology horizon"? just another fancy word for the allmighty singularity?
- laura
Jeremy John of the digital archives project at the British Library can read all these old formats in the digital scriptorum he's built. Impressive. (includes paper tape and punch cards which were not shown in this presentation but which I recall my parents using way back when).
- Maxine
After the conference is before the conference: would really like to see a session on digital archives in a future conference.
- Martin Fenner
a session on digital archives sounds good, Martin. Perhaps librarians and infoscientists can do one in January in NC? Rile them up!
- Bora Zivkovic
Jeremy John would be my recommendation. Was an evolutionary biologist before heading up the BL digital lives project.
- Maxine
Thanks, Maxine. Do you know him and have contact info for him? Perhaps give him a heads-up?
- Bora Zivkovic
Yes, I know him - have been involved with his project. Here's the link to him and all about his project/conference. http://www.bl.uk/digital... I'm sure he'd be delighted to come to the conference and/or suggest appropriate speakers for specific aspects of this rather large subject, if you want to "drill down" into one particular specialism. (See digital lives conf programme - http://www.bl.uk/digital...)
- Maxine
Google Wave: Just another ripple or science communication tsunami? Cameron Neylon, Chris Thorpe, Ian Mulvany
Yann Abraham, Konrad Förstner, Alexey and 14 other people liked this
This is something I'm really interested in. So are a bunch of twitterers, it seems.
- Bob O'Hara
Looking forward to the live demo :D
- Allyson Lister
Unicast = 1 message sent to many people. Wave is multicast - "gold" copy is always kept.
- AJCann
Introduction by Chris Thorpe. Email is multicasts, Wave is unicasts: you send the same message to several people.
- Martin Fenner
Jargon: "wavelets" & "blips".
- AJCann
Robots are powerful tools to extend the functionality of Google Wave.
- Martin Fenner
Waves can be embedded into other webpages, e.g. a blog.
- Martin Fenner
Oops, some confusion over unicast and multicast immediately - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- AJCann
Gadgets change the functionality of a Wave. Gadgets are client-sie tools, Robots are server-side tools.
- Martin Fenner
Data stored in wave, gadgets stored in blips.
- AJCann
Cameron starts Wave live demo.
- Martin Fenner
And now the fun begins...
- Bob O'Hara
Hey Cameron, some of us author papers collaboratively on Google Docs!
- AJCann
But they're just showing versioned instant messaging, right now. cool, but I would like to see more. :)
- Allyson Lister
a Guardian robot was shown for searching the Guardian.
- Allyson Lister
Can someone add me to the wave? username nuin
- Paulo Nuin
And very nice: a Watexy robot for displaying latex figures
- Allyson Lister
Sort of jealous - wish I could "wave" (is it a verb yet?) :)
- Allyson Lister
Can someone as the cat herders what they think of Daniel MacArthur's tweet: "Google Wave "will make flame wars almost immediate..."?
- Bob O'Hara
Seems to me that robots are the truly innovative aspect of wave from a users point of view (but beyond the authoring capabilities of mere mortals).
- AJCann
Waves can store structured information in a transparent way.
- Martin Fenner
Ian M suggests wave robots can tame APIs for mere mortals.
- AJCann
Is wave a technology in search of a problem? Like all new tech, will need a "killer app" to take off. What is the killer app for wave?
- AJCann
Demo of a few robots including Igor: http://blogs.nature.com/wp...
- Martin Fenner
Hashtag consensus seems to be that wave is underwhelming...
- AJCann
Cameron talks about using a Wave as a tool to design a laboratory workflow, where the Wave can be used with different datasets.
- Martin Fenner
I think we just need to see more exciting apps, and not sure there's been enough time or people in the early testing to get that (yet), @AJCann. I remain hopeful...
- Allyson Lister
Live collaboration might not be needed for writing a paper. It's just a byproduct of the version control mechanism.
- Martin Fenner
Can someone ask how tech savvy one has to be to use Wave?
- Bob O'Hara
Bob: not very tech savvy. The interface is just still a little bit klunky.
- Martin Fenner
I asked there, let's see if someone answers.
- Paulo Nuin
I know Martin has answered here ...
- Paulo Nuin
A few people there are twittering and worrying about what they need to know.
- Bob O'Hara
Ian Mulvany: if you submit a manuscript written as a Wave, you can track exactly who did what.
- Martin Fenner
IMHO, it would be great for small collaboration efforts
- Paulo Nuin
Bob: No one answered on the Wave, I don't know if it's over there
- Paulo Nuin
Wave is different from FriendFeed, because it is conversations between a specific group of people.
- Martin Fenner
In a way, but there are ways to find public conversations, and embedded waves on blogs/sites can open the discussion.
- Paulo Nuin
It decentralizes the discussion, centralizing its repository.
- Paulo Nuin
Why Cameron likes Wave: it solves many little problems that have bothered us for a long time.
- Martin Fenner
Chris Thorpe: Google Wave is pushing data, so much smarter than pulling data in services such as Twitter.
- Martin Fenner
If any presenter is listening, can you please play the video of the demo for the SL folks? they're asking nicely...
- Allyson Lister
Disadvantage of Google Wave: it can't be used offline. Future versions will probably be able to do that (using Google Gears).
- Martin Fenner
So I wonder if wave is the reason Apple are building those huge data centers...
- AJCann
Paulo, can you add "If any presenter is listening, can you please play the video of the demo for the SL folks? they're asking nicely..." to the wave?
- Daniel Mietchen
Thanks Bjoern - it came slightly too late.
- Daniel Mietchen
Sorry - am reviewing a paper in parallel :-)
- Björn Brembs
Blog post at: http://themindwobbles.wordpress.com/2009...
- Allyson Lister
I'm excited about Wave - not for what it is, but for it's potential :-)
- Björn Brembs
Will it review papers for you as well?
- Bob O'Hara
Sorry, had to step out a little ...
- Paulo Nuin
@bob: lol, I wish :-) But I could keep a wave open with questions to colleagues (or the authors if it was an open review). Beats email and chat and phone, in my eyes.
- Björn Brembs
Waves could be used in the review process. It would also work for anonymous peer review, because parts of a Wave can be private discussions.
- Martin Fenner
My guess it's neither (haven't used it), but a key aspect of our evolution to an event-driven web
- Deepak Singh
I am WAY EXCITED about Google Wave!!!!!!! I want to play with it right now actually.
- Arikia
code for the janey robot is: http://github.com/IanMulv...
- Ian Mulvany
@Ian who is Janey? I've seen Igor...
- Egon Willighagen
the important functions are OnBlipSubmitted and QueryJaneAPI. #solo09
- Ian Mulvany
Egon, demo robot that I put together for #solo09, it queries http://www.biosemantics.org/jane...
- Ian Mulvany
I really liked this demo/session - thanks, panel.
- Maxine
Thanks Maxine. I was afraid the session was to "geeky" for many in the audience.
- Martin Fenner
Looking back I'm thinking that we may have fallen between the stools of trying to cater for both the excited geeks and those who had no idea what we were talking about. That and we clearly needed some flashier robots to get the wow factor up :-)
- Cameron Neylon
Well I thought the robots were appropriate to the meeting's agenda. Really, it was a good session. I think you did have some exceptionally knowledgeable geek outliers in your audience (in reality and virtually). I certainly learned a lot from it and I am somewhere in the middle of your two extremes, Cameron ;-)
- Maxine
Blogging for Impact: Dave Munger, Mark Henderson, Daniel MacArthur
Daniel Mietchen, Pierre Lindenbaum, Patricia F. Anderson and Duncan Hull liked this
Cool - Hi Second life people!
- Allyson Lister
Not Dave Munger in reality, but Mark Henderson from The Times (of London)
- Duncan Hull
Ok, we can blognthis session, nice to know that some journalists use scientific blogs to help them get background material. Cool!
- Ian Mulvany
from iPhone
Hi Allyson! I wonder what the SL assembly looks like to you all? Mark is a tiny bright blob gesticulating in time to his words, but the webcam is a little washed out... still, pretty cool to hear it live.
- Heather
give your work a useful media profile to the world.
- Allyson Lister
He THINKS he has a legal dept behind him - the Guardian didn't defend everyone (thinking Simon Singh)
- Heather
@Heather - it's really funny - looks a little like a Greek amphitheatre with about a half-dozen people sitting quietly :) I've never used Second Life, so it's all new to me!
- Allyson Lister
Always have a large and competent legal department at your disposal....#fail
- Duncan Hull
And we can see all your SL chats! :)
- Allyson Lister
We can hear Dave perfectly here in the Faraday theatre in the RI.
- Martin Fenner
Dave talks about what blogging did for him and his wife Greta personally.
- Martin Fenner
Control your own message, eliminate the middleman.
- Martin Fenner
Is blogging more useful as most scientists have little other time/space for reflection on their work (in addition to the "free"publicity) ?
- AJCann
ReseachBlogging.org collects just the science-based blog posts. Regularly select notable posts from each field of study.
- Martin Fenner
Mainstream media pick up some of the research blog posts.
- Martin Fenner
very good to link blog posts from all over to the original article as far as possible
- Heather
The optimist's conclusion: blogging doesn't have to be time-consuming or controversial to have an impact.
- Martin Fenner
No Daniel MacArthur starts talking from a realist's perspective.
- Martin Fenner
Love that "my day job" slide.
- Duncan Hull
Daniel blogs at http://scienceblogs.com/genetic...
- Duncan Hull
Challenges for academic bloggers: 1) Time. Time spent blogging is time not spent doing research. Easier if blogging is about your area of research.
- Martin Fenner
Micro-blogging (Twitter, FriendFeed) another potential solution to problem of lack of time.
- Martin Fenner
Pubget: http://pubget.com/search Plugin. I'll explore later...
- Bob O'Hara
Another challenge 2) peer backlash. Controversy sells. Criticism can damage careers.
- Martin Fenner
Quite a lot of pessimism about the future of FriendFeed around these parts today.
- AJCann
Bob and Heather and everybody else following along, let me know if you have a question or comment for the speakers in this session or the following ones.
- Martin Fenner
Desire to write interesting article reviews needs to balance with internal editor who tells you when you're going too far. (Thanks, Martin!)
- Heather
Challenge 3) Industry. Litigation risks.
- Martin Fenner
Challenge 4) Identity crisis. Sustaining multiple identities.
- Martin Fenner
Remembering Maxine Clarke's poor opinion of divergent personalities blogging vs IRL (challenge 4)
- Heather
Any questions?
- AJCann
Institutional blogging policies?
- AJCann
Ed Yong: Danger of blogs as "dumping grounds" of stuff that didn't make it into the traditional paper? Mark Henderson: Blog post is great to add something to a story.
- Martin Fenner
Ed's point applies to some of my posts. I've even had people wanting to cite the blog post.
- Bob O'Hara
Comments on the blog at the Times are of much higher quality than comments on the newspaper articles.
- Martin Fenner
Blogs as PR? Independence from institution?
- AJCann
Dave Munger talks about the positive experience of support from the institution for his blogging.
- Martin Fenner
Daniel MacArthur talks about his experience on conference blogging at Cold Spring Harbor.
- Martin Fenner
Formal "opt-out" social media policies for conferences.
- AJCann
Blog post for this presentation at: http://themindwobbles.wordpress.com/2009... (There are enough posting on FF, so I'm devoting my time to longer posts... :) )
- Allyson Lister
On institutional support, the University of Helsinki runs its own blogging service: http://blogs.helsinki.fi/ Any other unis or institutes do this?
- Bob O'Hara
Legal and Ethical Aspects of Science Blogging (Petra Boynton, David Allen Green)
Starts with a legal disclaimer!
- AJCann
There's a request not to live-blog this talk. :-(
- Bob O'Hara
I'm perfectly happy not to live blog, if that's what they want. And anyway, they'll be posting the slides afterwards :D
- Allyson Lister
and we can't watch it on Second Life, either, so far.
- Heather
How to stop blogging: http://www.nature.com/nature...
- AJCann
@Heather, I think that's intentional, for the same reason there's no live blogging
- Allyson Lister
Pseudonyms - stealth by obscurity?
- AJCann
Was also disappointed that we could not watch it in Second Life... Managed to get the baby to sleep and everything! :)
- Bronwen Dekker
Surely trust in science relies on an authentic voice? Verification?
- AJCann
@Bronwen I hope Second Life will be up after this talk for you guys!
- Allyson Lister
Can someone explain why they don't want this live-blogged? Or is that classified information too?
- Bob O'Hara
AFAIK, @Bob, it's because they want to make sure all the information coming from the talk is accurate. That's why they'll release the slides afterward. Anyone else, do I have that right?
- Allyson Lister
@Allyson, Yes, that's right. Also because each case is different.
- AJCann
Confused about how a streamed video on Second Life would not be accurate. Also, why the scheduling changes, if anyone knows?
- Heather
If you can't live blog the session, how about uploading a photo of it? http://www.flickr.com/groups...
- Bob O'Hara
We are asked not to blog the specifics of this session, but I can tell you it's bloody great.
- Ian Mulvany
from iPhone
No live-blogging: so much for 'online'!
- Richard Carter, FCD
@Richard - hang on - live blogging will resume normal service soon!
- Allyson Lister
Running a little late now, but lots more live blogging to come soon!
- AJCann
Lucky people with Google Wave previews - do you see it in any way as a potential FriendFeed replacement?
Ahsan Ali aka. Slick, Jodi Schneider, Tom Walsh and 7 other people liked this
Not in time obviously - but a lot of the functionality could be similar. The trouble is there is a fundamental break between the "participant list" functionality of both Wave and Facebook (i.e. people have to add other people to the wave) and the public participation in Friendfeed which I think is at the core of what has worked well for the research community here.
- Cameron Neylon
There are groups in Wave which allow larger collections of people to follow updates, and you can certainly import Twitter/RSS into a Wave. However, the Google Wave client app wouldn't make a good replacement as it stands: the activation energy for getting started and staying up to date is much higher then Friendfeed.
- Matt Wood
No. It's unbelievably complex and non-user-friendly. See http://is.gd/283ph
- Tom Morris
I agree the client isn't easy to use but that is not really the point in my view. It might be possible to build something that looked a bit like friendfeeed using the embed API and a wave server with OpenID authentication but I just think it wouldn't behave the same way in important ways. But the client isn't the protocol or the framework.
- Cameron Neylon
I agree with Cameron. It might well be possible to build something on top of the Wave APIs, however, from what I can see, there is a fair amount of 'magic' in Friendfeed from both the smooth user experience perspective, and the technical implementation. Either way, the Friendfeed public timeline would be very useful as a seed to provide context.
- Matt Wood
no, unlikely. More general adoption of pusubhubbub might lead to decentralization of commenting on items of interest, which would render the need for a hub like ff obsolete.
- Ian Mulvany
I think Wave is more about collaboration than aggregation.
- Euan
Agree with Ian, PubSubHubHub may provide a solution. And definitely agree with Euan - Wave is about (controlled ) collaboration, FF is more about uncontrolled commenting on aggregation.
- Cameron Neylon
Just saw something about iGoogle making an FF like interface.http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
- Joe
It could be - but it's not ready yet. Give us devs time to write robots, etc !
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
Four logicians are having breakfast. Waitress asks -- Will you all be having coffee? The first logician says "I don't know." Second says "I don't know." Third says "I don't know." Fourth says "No." The waitress returns with their coffees. Who gets coffee?
Ramana Rao, Flemming Funch, Drew Robinson and 49 other people liked this
I don't know :)
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
from IM
The puzzle actually has a solution.
- Dave Winer
1, 2, and 3.
- Tudor Bosman
The first three. Anyone who wasn't having coffee could safely say "no". If anyone before the fourth said no, it would be indeterminate.
- Matt Mastracci
No one gets coffee. 4 answered for all of them.
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
The first three were unsure, the forth one was the only one having coffee, he said no because he is the only one to have coffee.
- Moobie
Well, they're *not* at the Nonlinear Cafe, that much I can deduce :)
- Micah Wittman
Tudor and Matt got it. The question wasn't "Who wants coffee?"
- Dave Winer
Fourth knows she doesn't want coffee, so she says no, they will not ALL be having coffee.
- Arek Dreyer
FF is good for puzzles. If you don't want to see the answer you don't have to. :-)
- Dave Winer
But what about upside down coffee cups?
- Arek Dreyer
What if the question was "Does anyone want coffee?"
- Arek Dreyer
If the question was "Does anyone want coffee?" then we wouldn't be here talking about this now. :-D
- Moobie
Arek, the answer would then be "nobody gets coffee".
- Matt Mastracci
maybe, maybe, maybe, yes. (Arek, these would have to be the answers, for it to make sense).
- Panayotis Vryonis
The first three are ordering coffee, but don't know if the rest are. The last is not, and can safely say "No." Any other answer doesn't work, AFAICT.
- Tanath
Why is it ruled out that the fourth gets coffee? He could be merely mistaken. Him not getting coffee is not a warranted true belief until he, in fact, doesn't get coffee.
- Mark Trapp
the first three get coffee. the first three all would have been able to say "no" if they were not having coffee since that would mean they were not ALL having coffee. But because they were having coffee, and didn't know what the remaining people were going to answer, they could only say "I don't know".
- David Aronchick
All four get coffee because the waitress was confused by their indirect method of answering her question so when she returned she simply left the pot on the table.
- Garin Kilpatrick
Coffee for all! :)
- Garin Kilpatrick
She returns with 3 coffees for the guys who said I don't Know.
- Louis Rossouw
Where's the credit to Will Shortz and Merl Reagle??? http://www.npr.org/templat... btw - I like @DavidAronchick's answer!
- Mark Chance
Excellent. I'll ask that the first person I'll be interviewing for a job :-)
- Till
@Till: "Will you be having coffee?" "-Yes" "-You are hired!"
- Jemm
Friendfeed works well for this. With the answer in the comments it is not immediately visible and gives the reader an opportunity to think before seeing the solution.
- Scott Magoon
Apparently this was on NPR yesterday. I heard it from a friend who (I guess) must have heard it there.
- Dave Winer
Reminds me of the Amtrak announcement at limited stations, "All doors will not open."
- Jim Spath
We all know the answer to who gets coffee. It is 42. But who got the decaf? Did they use milk, non-dairy creamer, sugar, artificial sweetener...? That is the true test, the real conundrum. Answer that please.
- Richard
1,2,3 couldn't say yes due to order but didn't say no so they each wanted one
- Mark Essel
from iPhone
No-one knows if they will all be having coffee or not until the fourth says 'no' because he surely knows the answer to her question ie that he does not want any. Waitress and other three now know they will not 'all' be having coffee so she brings enough for three. They give her a large tip.
- Denise Danks
Should I try to answer this question before or after I have coffee this morning??
- Jannifer @wordsforliving
as the question was "will you *ALL* want coffee" , then there must be three OR LESS coffees delivered, as the fourth person was definitely not having coffee, being the only one who KNEW they wouldn't ALL be having coffee
- kosso
The first three guys get coffee. If any of them didn't want coffee, then the answer for them would have been "no".
- Otto
@Samuel Wood: I would disagree. The first three HAVE to say 'I dont know' as they have no idea if they will ALL get coffee. It doesn't mean they all chose to have coffee at all.
- kosso
I'll have a coke and a muffin to go
- Johnny Worthington
@kosso: If the person themselves did not want coffee, then they would instantly know the answer is no, they all did not want coffee, because that person didn't want coffee. The only way somebody can answer "I don't know" is a) he wants coffee and b) he's not sure if the other three do or don't want coffee.
- Otto
1, 2 & 3 were having coffee, since their answer was YES, but they could not confirm if they would ALL be having coffee. The fourth one was the only one who could really answer the question, after hearing everyone elses' answer. He did not want any coffee, so he replied NO. (i.e.: whoever did not want coffee would have been in a position to give a negative answer. The fact that it was the last one is logiacal, but tricky) 3coffees please
- constantinos alexacos
I think any of the earlier ones could have said no if they didn't want coffee, but then the riddle would be unanswerable, yes? Because the later responders would have to say no whether they wanted coffee or not.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
from iPhone
Exactly, Jandy.
- Brome
I think that was an extremely patient waitress.
- Ian Mulvany
Yes, the puzzle should have mentioned that not only is the waitress patient but she was a logician as well.
- Dave Winer
first three. i'm with louis.
- Marg Uerite
Only the person who gave the 'right' answer gets coffee, but he said no.
- Bob Boynton
The answer is me. Because answering logic puzzles before I've had my coffee is too damned hard.
- Steven Perez
all of them get coffee - excpet the last bugger
- Peter Dawson
1,2 & 3 get coffee, as answering "no" means "not all 4 of us": the last is the only one who can see the whole picture, so the first three cannot say "yes" - they lack information. Starting with the first: if he wants coffee, he just knows that 1 on 4 will be served and his answer is "I don't know" (he doesn't know about the other 3). If he doesn't want coffee, then he knows for sure...
more...
- Fabio
The Scholarly Communication Problem - http://scilib.typepad.com/science...
Euan liked this
brilliant
- Ian Mulvany
experimenting with LinkedIn - like Facebook, but with even more spectacular identity theft potential (as it has more details)
suelibrarian, Mike Chelen, Alexey and 2 other people liked this
on the other hand, real world utility
- Deepak Singh
really? so far i see more science being done on facebook than linkedin
- Ian Holmes
@Deepak what things do you use it for?
- Richard Akerman
Yes, apart from being spammed, I have not found much of a use for it yet! Am on my second (highly sceptical) use of the site. (However, I am not looking for a job which I suppose is its main aim?)
- Maxine
I've found it useful as a way to cold store contacts from previous jobs at previous companies.
- Ian Mulvany
Why I like LinkedIn: a place to keep my resume available and up-to-date everywhere, it's fun to see how people are related, it's the best place to keep my professional contacts (compared to facebook), nice place to find a contact.
- Pierre Lindenbaum
I'm finding much more coverage of people at LinkedIn than anywhere else with what I am trying to do at the moment in connecting people up
- Cameron Neylon
@Pierre I do think of LinkedIn as "professional Facebook", but since I'm not a big fan of FB, that's carrying over a bit into LI.
- Richard Akerman
@Richard: if LinkedIn cannot help you, it may help your contacts. e.g. A student searching a postdoc and trying to find some former member of the lab, a person hiring someone : "I see he/she was recommended by Deepak and he knows Richard Akerman", etc..
- Pierre Lindenbaum
for one thing, linkedin isn't blocked at work and facebook is - there's this perception that it's more business-like so... that perception alone is, shall we say, performative.
- Christina Pikas
Neither is blocked where I work. It is probably me being stupid, but for example Cameron invited me to a LinkedIn group the other day which I joined, but I can't seem to find it, or see who is in it, etc. Nature Network seems much better from that point of view- and it has all that "degrees of separation" aspect, too. But there again, I don't think NN is what you'd join if you are looking for a job, but good to connect with other scientists and people sympathetic to science. LI is presumably "everyone".
- Maxine
I like some discussion on LinkedIn, depends on groups that you belong to, some of them have very productive discussions. I can get career advices and opinions from companies executives only there! They don't go to FB, FF, Twitter, ect. but they do it on LinkedIn, considered this network is very professional
- Alexey
@ Christina - at my work (I work in the hospital) LinkedIn is only one networking site which is not blocked also. All of others - FF, FB, Twitter, anything else, including blogs (!) blocked as category "social networking" or "adult content" (scientific blogs).
- Alexey
Data portability is even more concerning for LI and FB, because it's still very difficult to take your hand-entered profile or connections from one site to another. LI finally won me over by supporting slightly more import and export formats :D
- Mike Chelen
Maxine, the link should be at http://www.linkedin.com/groups... or via Groups in your left sidebar. The reason I went for LI was because I was trawling down the list of people I was interested in inviting and every single one seemed to have an account. I find this frequently on LI and virtually never on any other site.
- Cameron Neylon
showing twitter to some folk
Björn Brembs and Neil Saunders liked this
now i am showing them friend feed
- Ian Mulvany
Hello everybody!
- Jan Aerts
can i update twitter from ff?
- Ian Mulvany
then show them ubiquity, and how you can update twitter and FF from that
- Frank
Twitter is down now so you can show them the downside too
- Attila Csordas
Ian, yes, FF to Twitter is in FF Account - Feed Publishing - Post my FriendFeed entries on Twitter as 'username'
- Richard Akerman
Google pulls plug on Palimpsest project - http://www.earlham.edu/~peters...
Richard Akerman liked this
sign of evil perhaps? I see a big opportunity here for libraries.
- Ian Mulvany
should push full connotea service over to new hardware by mid next week
Björn Brembs, Cameron Neylon, Mr. Gunn and Pedro Beltrao liked this
yay. I was trying to bookmark some stuff yesterday and it was definitely sluggotea, it will be great to have more performance.
- Richard Akerman
same here
- Pedro Beltrao
great! I was trying to grab an export yesterday and it was a no-go.
- Mr. Gunn
it has been a double whammy, in addition to our current slow hardware we have seen a flood of spammers using the site. I've been looking into the logs and have some ideas for some new heuristics that I hope will help.
- Ian Mulvany
I’ll Never Let Canada Live This Down: Evil Carpooling Startup Fined - http://www.techcrunch.com/2008...
we are truly doomed unless idiocy like this can be changed
- Ian Mulvany
To be fair, it's Ontario, not all of Canada. That's like blaming all of the UK something London's mayor does. Canada has a bunch of laws and organisations that often operate at cross-purposes depending on the era they were created, the inclinations of the government in power at the time, and the current government's preferences.
- Richard Akerman (nonwork)
Review: Intel X25-M 80GB SSD - http://paulstamatiou.com/2008...
I want one of these
- Ian Mulvany
Teens convicted of virtual theft - http://www.boingboing.net/2008...
I love this, this so typifies the Dutch approach to problem solving, it's property, it can be stolen, case closed.
- Ian Mulvany
Same for electronic money... no real difference there. Not sure if it's Dutch, it's just plain logic, elementary.
- Egon Willighagen
Copenhagen Suborbitals shooting for human in space - http://www.boingboing.net/2008...
reminds me of gravity's rainbow
- Ian Mulvany
Massive and Dark - http://riofriospacetime.blogspot.com/2008...
this is fantastic, this is exactly the kind of evidence we need to understand the universe around us.
- Ian Mulvany
Data Mining for Terrorists Doesn't Work - http://www.schneier.com/blog...
I wonder if this has implications for personomy mining.
- Ian Mulvany
The Science Blogging Bubble Ends? - http://scienceblogs.com/princip...
Shirley Wu, Ricardo Vidal and John Dupuis liked this
now we have saturated the early adopters we must wait for the young to follow
- Ian Mulvany
The Creative Commons and Photography - http://danheller.blogspot.com/2008...
I find it very difficult to agree with anything at all in the article past the first few paragraphs. The thesis seems to be - you shouldn't give away things that are easy to make - because people might a) steal copyright material and make it available under similar licenses or b) ignore a bunch of other legal stuff that has nothing to do with copyright. This has nothing to do with CC and everything to do with people ignoring or misusing licensing arrangements surely?
- Cameron Neylon
I agree w/ Cameron - this seems to have nothing to do with CC licenses per se. He's complaining that legal literacy is low in the general population. But one of the goals of CC is to increase legal literacy by making licensing easier for the general public to understand (and abide by the terms of). Greater understanding of licensing leads to greater understanding of copyright. If anything, he should be lobbying for a CC-equivalent of model releases to be used on Flickr.
- Hilary
i am agree
- Ian Mulvany
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