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Meg VMeg
Anyone have any recommendations for good books on information theory or knowledge representation?
Paging Lane Wilkinson... - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Lane recommended this book by Luciano Floridi a while ago on his blog that's been on my to-read list for a while: https://www.worldcat.org/title... - Stephen Francoeur
I now see that Lane recommends a shorter book by Floridi: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc... - Stephen Francoeur
"The Social Construction of What?" is on my to-read list, more about the nature of knowledge than its representation, but maybe pertinent: http://www.amazon.com/Social-... - Regular Amanda
Thank you! I had already grabbed the Philosophy of Information, maybe I'll look for the short one too. I tried to read "The Social Construction of What?" a while back (it sounds so great!) but then it turned out that the "what" in the title was a clever turn of phrase or something, and the whole book was a response to something/someone else that seemed really boring/trivial. I like Hacking's "Representing and Intervening" a lot, though. - Meg VMeg
Did you ever read "Reflections on Gender and Science"? I *loved* it when I read it, and it seems like a philosophy of knowledge/science like "Representing and Intervening" (which I have not read). http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbook... - Regular Amanda
I haven't! I've only read an article of hers (and know her by reputation). I'll check it out. FWIW, I just started this on the train home and find it delightful, so far: http://www.amazon.com/Knowled... - Meg VMeg
I have not read any of these books. I'm gonna. Thanks for asking this, Meg, and thanks for answering, all. - RepoRat
Ian Hacking - I should read Representing and Intervening I guess. Love his style. - barbara fister
If your going to get into sts then how about Bowker and Star? - Christina Pikas from iPhone
I like keller's stuff too but I wouldn't have proposed it in response to this question - Christina Pikas from iPhone
I love Bowker and Star, they were at UCSD when I was in the STS program there. Yeah, I started out looking for math-y information stuff (the calculus of recreating analog reality from digital data... like, what's the constant there? how many dimensions are we talking? starting conditions? cf. epigenetics?), but also the philosophy of the whole thing, so this is helpful, and I'm always happy to foray into the STS stuff. - Meg VMeg
Some of my favorites in information theory: Fred Dretske's "Knowledge and the Flow of Information" (1981) is a landmark book that interprets knowledge through the lens of Shannon's mathematical theory of communication (information). Speaking of which, Claude Shannon's "The Mathematical Theory of Communication" (1948) pretty much invented information theory and is still the benchmark... more... - Wilk
I have just been turned on to the work of Edward Tufte. I just got Beautiful Evidence via ILL. - ♫Maurice the Dolphin♫
I have created a books group.check my groups - FreePDFBooks
I am currently reading a really good book on information theory. - royce
So...ummm...it looks like I'm having lunch tomorrow with Herb Richardson of the Edwin Mellen Press. For real. Other than the obvious (drop the Askey suit), what would you want to say/ask if you had the opportunity?
Technically, it isn't lunch...I told him I wasn't interested in meeting with him but that he is as free to stop by my office as any library patron. According to his secretary he's taking me up on it tomorrow at noon. - Wilk
Why does he want to talk with you? Is he pushing a product? - maʀtha
Okay, your clarification makes a lot more sense. I do wonder, like Martha, what he wants to talk to you about. (I mean, I think I can guess, but I'm terribly curious how he's going to frame it.) - Catherine Pellegrino
Basically, I poked at him on the Chronicle and he responded like an asshole, so I called him out on his assholery and he sort of apologized and said he wanted to come to see me in person. Since he made the same offer to other people in the comments, I figured I'd play the "whatever, it's a free country" card. He called my bluff and now he's *supposedly* coming to see me (at least... more... - Wilk
in totally unrelated news, Anqi Li was one of my students at UNC, and I helped her research "Uses of History in the Press and in Court During California's Battle Over Proposition 8." Didn't realize that Mellen published it, but I have a copy of her thesis in my library: "Back to the future : use of history in newspaper coverage and judicial records on marriage equality for same-sex couples during and after Perry v. Schwarzenegger. http://search.lib.unc.edu/search... - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Good luck with the meeting. I am sure that the discussion would be interesting for bystanders to hear. I wouldn't come within 39.5 feet of that meeting. If he came to my library as a patron for a meeting? I'd probably ask him to spend the money on getting some copy editors, than in trying to sue librarians--that would be better for EMP in the long run. - Joe
..and... still with us after the lunch? - Kathryn is a free elf
So sorry I didn't see this. I would actually find it completely fascinating to have lunch with him. - laura x
oh wow I would pay money to listen in on laura x and the Herbster. - RepoRat
wrt one of the comments in the Chronicle thread - there's an article somewhere about peer review in the sciences and about how doctoral students and recent graduates do a better job reviewing than more established researchers because 1) up on the recent literature 2) take more time ... - Christina Pikas
False alarm. Even though his secretary scheduled it (and Griffey can vouch for me), he never showed up. Not surprising. I'll be sure to let y'all know when the inevitable lawsuit is filed. - Wilk
walt crawford
LSWers: Am I mistaken in my impression that this group does a pretty good job of being civil while openly debating issues, without requiring a moderator? And that when one of us goes a little overboard (raises hand!), we're pretty good at restoring order without slandering one another?
I only ask because LSW seems to have been brought up as one of those mean-spirited groups where only the brave go and where character assassination is par for the course. - walt crawford
That's my impression as well. Things do get out of hand occasionally, but in general we self-moderate pretty well. That said, I can think of a couple of people who would have experienced us as pretty hostile... - lris
I think our culture here is also a little more tolerant of snark than some people would find comfortable. - lris
^^^^^^^^^ that, yes. As a group, we're not Minnesota nice, or librarian nice, or sometimes nice at all. We also, as a group, hold some opinions that aren't exactly mainstream in librarianship. - RepoRat
I think for the most part we're pretty civil, every once in a while it does get out of hand and things seem to get a bit personal. but this is my go to spot for asking questions because I know that folks will be honest with me and there's such a wide variety of libraries and people represented here - Sir Shuping is just sir
I will say for us that what blows up here stays here. I have yet to hear of ANY argument here (and we've had some lulus) that's moved off FF -- no legal threats, no "those Bad People OMG" blog posts, no contacting of anybody's boss, none of that stuff. I'm gunshy enough that this is honestly a major reason I stay here! I trust people to let me be an ass without ruining my career over it. - RepoRat
we don't behave like we're in high school - jambina
We have a lot of inside jokes, which I think can be difficult for people who are new to the community but overall I think we do a pretty good job of self policing - Hedgehog
i think some really sensitive people left so this might have been their opinion. as for me, i find it warm and welcoming... but i'm not very sensitive at all... i'm not sure how much debate we actually have because i think we mostly agree on the hot button issues. - Christina Pikas
Not only are you good at civil fucking discourse (http://sennoma.net/?p=419), you include "outsiders" like me without hesitation when we stumble into your threads via someone we follow! - Bill Hooker
I think the problem that a lot of people have with LSW is that maybe we're not as respectful of status or position as they might like. And that we tend to get more pissed off when people tell us to be nice. - John Dupuis
Great responses. Thanks. - walt crawford
And, it must be said, questions are answered and help offered. - Pete's Got To Go
I have referred to LSW as my key professional network, and will probably do so in the future. And as I place where I can ask possibly-stupid questions and get worthwhile (or at least interesting) answers. Those places are rare. (Also, I don't feel as antique here as I might at some other places...) - walt crawford
I haven't seen anything blow up in a while. I think we have lost some people in the past due to conflicts. I do think that we do our best to self-regulate. Also, I hope we never lose our sense of fun here. We aren't just about libraries, we are about building relationships and not taking ourselves too seriously. Putting the social in professional networking, as it were. - maʀtha
Actually, I'll put it another way: Without LSW, I would probably have shut down Cites & Insights and stopped writing and speaking by now. But don't get any ideas... - walt crawford
There's a lot less grandstanding here- not *none*, but far less than in other spaces. Some days I want to stab library twitter in the face with a spork - Pete's Got To Go
oooh, we haven't had any spork action in a while... - maʀtha
Perhaps some folks beyond the usual suspects would like to comment? I'm interested in your thoughts on this, lurkers :) - maʀtha
As a relative newcomer to this space, I find that I can ask real questions here and get real answers. I agree that the snark factor could put some people off for sure, and I agree that the relatively minimal regard for heirarchy and status might throw others off. But for me participating has been helpful, supportive, entertaining. - LibrarianOnTheLoose
I have to admit, when I first read that I had to look twice to be sure it was being posted to LSW. I'm relatively new, and I like the snark and the honesty. - Rebecca Hedreen
I also encourage lurkers to chime in, especially if there are any who might have otherwise negative opinions about LSW. And, Walt, where did you see that negative opinion? Is it on the ALATT Fb page mentioned in a thread elsewhere, cause I checked that Fb page and it is *way* more of a hot mess than LSW. - John Dupuis
I think here it's more 'I work in a library' rather than 'I r srs librarian'-core-persona stuff - Pete's Got To Go
I'm fairly new around here, but after just a limited amount of time I was comfortable with the idea of throwing out questions to the community! I got the sense right off the bat that this was a community where people were generally very supportive and nice, plus lots of great snark! The format here seems way less intimidating than list-servs for some reason, so I've been much more comfortable asking for help and everyone has really helped me grow as a professional in my first full-time job. Thank you! - MontglaneChess
John: ALA TT. A "moderator" seemed to be telling people that if they couldn't play nicely they should go somewhere like LSW. I may have misread it; this particular moderator gets on my nerves sometimes. - walt crawford
WE WILL NOT ACCEPT TT REFUGEES. there. i said it. ; ) - jambina
What's interesting to me is that some weeks ago, the code4lib mailing list had a moment of reflection of what is was as a community and suffered a bit of shock when an poll suggested that a lot of folks who belonged to the list, didn't feel part of the community. Maybe there's a natural life cycle that online discussion go through because it seems that ALA TT is going through something similar now - copystar
I think the whole libanana thing is crazy. How could those involved not know it would end in teeth knashing? Does that make them trolls? From this distance, its fascinating to watch - copystar
I don't even get what the libanana thing was except some people got these slicers sent to them. It was all weird to me. - ellbeecee
Also, I hope that new people will ask if they don't get the inside jokes, or anything else, for that matter. - maʀtha
Damn, there are days where I love being blonde and clueless. Which is pretty much every day when I'm not also trying to tempt people into the evils of erotica. Admittedly, some of my blindness is purposeful. As soon as I catch a whiff of intertubez DRAHmah, I do a 180 and run. If it's a group I have experience with and like, I'll make my way back after the dust settles. LSW is one such group and one that rarely causes me to stick my fingers in my ears and go "LAH-LAH-LAH-LAH" :) - Katie
Also, I'd totally prefer a flask over a banana slicer ;) - Katie
There is no way that this thread will not go thataway now that "banana slicer" has been invoked. - Catherine Pellegrino
Hence why I'd prefer a flask. The contents of which mellows out dealing with any trolls :D - Katie
banana slicer? - Pete's Got To Go
I think we have a new tagline, folks! "LSW is one such group and one that rarely causes me to stick my fingers in my ears and go "LAH-LAH-LAH-LAH" Admins, please to make it so. - maʀtha
It must be one of those inside jokes, Pete. - maʀtha
I've been so grateful to have LSW as both an information hub and a personal outlet this past year as I make my way through grad school and enter the professional world. I don't always ask the strong debate questions, but I know the value of being able to ask them here. Y'all are my edge. - Lily
See, I'd assume that someone sending me a banana slicer had evil intent, since I'm (literally) deathly allergic to bananas. Fortunately, I'm neither a librarian nor a library rockstar, so... Also, I love the tagline. - walt crawford
Now I have a vision of Walt being held up by a banana at a conference breakfast: "Watch out, Walt, I'm armed." - maʀtha
I'm pretty new here, and I tend to be a loooong time lurker in new communities. It usually takes me a while to become a big poster or commenter. However, I felt remarkably comfortable quickly posting questions and participating here, so for me at least LSW has felt very welcoming. I think it's precisely because of the informality and lack of hierarchy. - Regular Amanda
I agree with Iris - and point to elevated snark (with civility) as a reason I like LSW and why I trust the help given here. All online communities have a life-cycle, but I don't see LSW going down in flames, even when it cycles out. It is more likely to be a mutual decision or a move to something else en masse. I would participate more if my work permitted it, but I jump in when I can, and always feel welcome, even when disagreed with. So there. Also, SPORK. - Louise "Weezy" Alcorn
I lurk on LSW and sometimes post, but I find it very welcoming and very useful. - Sarah
Also what is the ALA TT? I'm blanking... - Sarah
the people who send out banana slicers??? - maʀtha
A Facebook group, ALA Think Tank, not sure what the official ALA connection is. 2,700+ members. Approach with caution: http://www.facebook.com/groups... - walt crawford
Huh. - maʀtha
LSW has it's flareups just like anywhere else... we've had our share of *ragequits* in the past and I'm sure we'll have them again in the future. We're certainly not the original LSW cadre anymore (and that is both regrettable and a good thing if that juxtaposition makes any sense) - Aaron the Librarian
Also, I blame LSW for getting me onto Twitter in the first place. There, I said it. Me having a scarily large platform is all your fault. - Katie
That and the fact that it's the perfect vehicle for when I let my ditzy motormouth side loose. - Katie
I like that it's a place where can speak what's on their mind, even if it doesn't jibe with the majority mindset (and that cursing is tolerated) - John: Thread Killer
I do miss some of the departed folks. I hope they might return someday. You know who you are. - maʀtha
I will never forget Katie's Reading List countdown on Twitter. - laura x
Also, if this ever stops being a place where we can take trivial things seriously and serious things trivially, I'm out. Srsly. - laura x
Well said. - maʀtha
Oscar Wilde is our patron saint. - laura x
Well said, both (all). And I wish he'd return also. (And others, if there have been others. I don't think The Great McK was ever here, although I suppose he'd be welcome too.) - walt crawford
I'm with laurax (and Wilde) re: trivial things. - Louise "Weezy" Alcorn
(I keep trying to *like* this thread but it won't let me do it more than once, dammit.) - bentley
I don't know, LSW seems to take pride to be seen to be misfits or rebels or even not to be in the majority position, but I really wonder if this is true given many individuals here are quite high up in the food chain or at least influential. Unless we are rebels because we speak our minds.... I don't get the in-jokes because I am fairly new and perhaps some cultural differences but they don't bother me much. - aaron
Would it be fair to say that ALA TT tilts more to public libraries and LSW to academic in terms of membership and topics? - Stephen Francoeur
I never got that LSW took pride in being misfits: There are plenty of M&S here and not a few in higher-up positions or with fairly high profiles in other ways. What I do see in LSW is a healthy disdain for the idea that hierarchy=superiority, that people with high profiles are more worth listening to than others, or that M&S are truly The Chosen Ones. - walt crawford
*snort* chosen ones. I'm pretty sure we all, here, know that having a M&S award and/or a cool title and/or a fuckload of responsibility and/or a rockstar librarian profile mean precisely nothing. I've got all of those, and I'm both highly effective and a total fuckup, just like I'm very well-educated and thoughtful but also clueless and in need of a kick in the head. It just depends on the discussion, the day, and the audience. - Jenica
Both LSW and ALATT defy attempts at classification, Stephen... "As soon as we say LSW is [FOO]" it morphs into [BAR], in an almost endless cycle - Aaron the Librarian
I mostly lurk, but haven't felt excluded or uncomfortable, and I personally haven't witnessed any blowups. I've been in and out of LSW for years, so maybe I missed something. In any case, I find it a valuable source of information that's often relevant to me, or at least amusing, so thanks to you all! - Grumpator
People are using bad words. Please unsubscribe me from this list. - lris
Done. You're unsubscribed from LSW-L@DRAMA.COM. - walt crawford
I was a little perturbed by LSW references in ALA TT threads; someone even said, "Leave the debate stuff to the LSW". Which is odd since both groups engage in serious and frivolous discussions as part of the norm. Quite frankly, I don't know why people would make a comparison since it's like comparing anonymous substance abuse support groups; the people who frequent them are looking for... more... - Andy
LSW is like an anonymous substance abuse program. :-D - lris
hookers and blow? (someone had to) - maʀtha
shovers & makers? I am neither a M&S or a S&M (heh), but I do like LSW. - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
I check in on LSW once a week, but I never post or comment because I never have anything to add. Still, I find the discussions are civil, rational, and usually very interesting...I learn quite a bit sometimes. OTOH, I never looked at ALA TT until just now. Weird vibes and definitely not somewhere I'll be visiting again. - Wilk
Stephen Francoeur
Best songs that came out in 2012. Go!
Everything from my favorite country star Blake Shelton. - Blake
I'm working on my list in Spotify. Need to get 20 songs together. Here's what I have so far: http://open.spotify.com/user... - Stephen Francoeur
wait, how is there a new Led Zeppelin album out? - Blake
Bilboard has Led Zepplin, Aerosmith, AC/DC and Kiss in the top 10... WHAT YEAR IS THIS?? - Blake
Everything I was going to suggest came out in 2011... Where did this year go and why didn't rock hard enough? Anyway, how about "Urlaub" by Laserkraft 3D? http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Zamms
"Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." - Blake
Icona Pop: "I love it"; Carly Rae Jepsen: "Call me maybe"; Lana del Rey: "Video Games"; Frank Ocean "Thinking about you" Psy: Gangrahm style! - copystar
copystar, have you heard Amanda Palmer's cover of Video Games? - DJF
DJF, I have not. I'd listen to it now but I'm on a train! - copystar
Building a similar Spotify list: http://open.spotify.com/user... - Wilk
Lane, there's some serious overlap in our musical tastes! Took another look at your profile in last.fm (we're buds there). I'm going to cherry pick your Best of 2012 list for ideas for mine. Thanks! - Stephen Francoeur
Word. I'm subscribing right back at ya. Here's 2011 if yr interested: http://open.spotify.com/user... - Wilk
And the full version of 2012: http://open.spotify.com/user... - Wilk
haven't finalized my 2012 list, but it will include Citizen Cope's One Lovely Day and Allen Stone's Sleep. Also a bunch of Lana del Ray. here's my 2011 list: http://open.spotify.com/user... - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
King Tuff! Either "Keep On Moving" http://www.youtube.com/watch... or "Alone and Stoned" http://www.youtube.com/watch... - kendrak
English Singles "Grey Skies USA" http://www.youtube.com/watch... - kendrak
Agree with the King Tuff! - Stephen Francoeur
Also Terry Malts' "I Do" http://www.youtube.com/watch... - kendrak
Oh, English Singles = good! Just found them on Spotify. From Sacramento, I see. - Stephen Francoeur
Yeah... Scott Miller (the lead singer) is one of the gems of Sacramento. Every band he's in is worth listening to - The Bananas, Nar, The Bright Ideas, The Tiki Men, and several others. - kendrak
Terry Malts is great, too! Kendra, why don't you just make my best of 2012 playlist for me? - Stephen Francoeur
Stephen, you use Spotify? I'll crank it open for you. - kendrak
Yeah, you can find me there at stephenfrancoeur. - Stephen Francoeur
Gangnam Style of course. - Joe
my boy would say this song is one of the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch... Released April, 2012. - royce
Gangnam Style and Thrift Shop... - Lorena O'English
There are at least six on the newest album from Missy Higgins: Set Me On Fire, Unashamed Desire, Everyone's Waiting, Temporary Love, If I'm Honest, and Cooling of the Embers. - Holly's favorite Anna
Inflammatory statement: "Transliteracy" is what people who've been doing BI and calling it IL are now calling IL now that they're finally on board with IL's goals.
oh dear og! mean, on the one hand, if i never hear BI again.... but on the other, you know, just change your pedagogy already, not the word! - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
If this conference I attended last week on Transliteracy is right, then Transliteracy is Information Literacy. It's only "new" compared to stereotypical Bibliographic Instruction. - lris
do what now? - MoTO Boychick Devil
MoTo, years ago, library instruction was called "Bibliographic Instruction." Typically people think of Bibliographic Instruction as "here is how you use an index, and here are the 4 best indexes for your topic, and here is the library catalog and here are the important parts of the library catalog." Very much about teaching the few, finite ways to find sources. Then about 20 years ago... more... - lris
what Iris says is true. also, I do hear BI used - maʀtha
Thank you for the succinct recap, Iris -- Imma steal this (once I've memorized it) - Aaron the Librarian
I do use "BI" as shorthand with other librarians for "I taught a class session where we talked about research in some form or another," but having said that, I totally agree with Iris. - Catherine Pellegrino
Iris, that was beautiful. I struggle to understand what the difference between IL and TL is. Every now and then, Lane Wilkinson says something that perks my ears and brains right up, and I grasp the difference for a minute (and it is in the area of transferability of skills, usually). But IL? Was clearly a response against "teach the tool"! - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
(what was last week's TL conference?) - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Because I'm feeling feisty, I blogged it. Bring on the hate. http://pegasuslibrarian.com/2012... - lris
*admires Iris's big brain*.. thank you sweetie - MoTO Boychick Devil
You know, I probably mostly still do BI, then. Because typically I have one hour for the class, and it may be the only hour they have to see me in their *entire degree*, so as much as I want to talk about general transferable skills, they also really need to know that our catalogue, databases, standards collection, subject guides, and virtual reference service *exist*. When I know I stand half a chance of seeing them for an hour next year too then I can loosen up a bit. - Deborah Fitchett
I think a lot depends on the institution's over-all goals, Deborah. For mine, I'm in the same position in that I have no guarantee that any student will have any more than the hour (or even 15 minutes) that I get with their class. But my department's goals are more about sparking imaginations, hoping that gaining our students' interest will help them know when to seek help for more... more... - lris
I'm with Iris, but the point she makes about the model to back up the instruction sessions with reference and consultations is KEY. Also, I really, really want to work somewhere with that model again. I try to do course integrated, info lit, instruction sessions, but I can't do follow up consultations, which just kills me. - maʀtha
A tangent: just came across another term, via Google, no less: "search literacy." http://www.google.com/insides.... Has anyone else looked through this "Search Education" site? - Megan loves summer
Yeah, I definitely try not to teach it in a *boring* way - I always start from asking what they already know and what they want to learn, and talk in the context of whatever assignment they have, and finish with a minute feedback paper and reminding them how to contact me for consults etc. (But our students don't so often followup in this way.) And with the content I focus more on when... more... - Deborah Fitchett
I'm smiling because I almost never teach refining options and nearly always end up teaching boolean (though I don't call it that -- I use it in conjunction with concept-mapping that generates potential related terms that would fall within items on a topic). But yes, this sounds to me like BI. And I think there is absolutely a time and a place for that. With my students (all undergrad,... more... - lris
(Oh, and if anyone's interested, Lane stopped by to clarify some points over on my blog post.) - lris
That exchange reminds me of Chomsky on Universal Grammar, i.e. "it is what I say it is (never mind that what I say it is changes by the millisecond)" - RepoRat
See, that's interesting, because I'm motivated by patterns that I see during practical use. More deductive than inductive, I suppose? This is why I am a terrible liberal arts major. - Meg VMeg
It may partly (but probably isn't only) that I'm working with science and especially engineering students who tend to be more practical/goal-oriented and less interested in general discussion of ideas. There are fantastic exceptions always, but as a trend. Also and I generally don't understand their research, which adds its own limitations... - Deborah Fitchett
Repo, I dearly hope you're not referring to me with your Chomsky analogy. I haven't changed my take on transliteracy since I first started in on it. You can Google that. Word. - Wilk
Lane is always great. And while I generally don't understand TL, I do love the emphasis on transferability of skills. It's sort of impliedin the IL standards, but library lit is really weak on the topic, and if calling IL TL gets us to talk and teach and write about the transferability of skills along with the ability to identify an info need, and determine the best tools for meeting it, and evaluating what you find and using it effectively and ethically, then I don't care what we call it. - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Thanks Rudi! You know I don't sit kindly for bullshit. I'm just trying to see if TL has anything worthwhile behind it. - Wilk
I'm just glad you accept my inability to grok TL! And insistence I'll take from it what I want! - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
I accept the hell out of it. - Wilk
Enjoyed the talk last Friday, Lane - maʀtha
I do a bit of that, I think. It's just, there's a lot of questions of that kind where I ask it and I get blank stares in response. This depends on the class and the time of day of course. But for the undergrads I teach typically, "what have you been discussing in class" tends to get some version of "Dunno, stuff, I guess."; they're more likely to ask me what they're supposed to do once... more... - Deborah Fitchett
I know some of my colleagues talk about having departmental cultures that don't really allow for much more than skills-conveying in class. I think that's part of what Steve was saying about giving them a classroom experience that is similar to what they've had in the rest of their course, as much as possible. I also know, though, that it took me a long, long time to learn how to set up... more... - lris
Maybe it's too simplistic, but my reading of the differences between 'transliteracy' and 'literacy' is that TL encompasses visual culture as well as the written word. For example, if a person wanted to create an endorsement for a particular political issue but didn't know how to make an online video, you could say that person had a particular form of illiteracy. Or, more controversially, someone who could read but couldn't use the Internet also has a form of illiteracy. - copystar
I would argue that "information" is broader than "published written literature." We've concentrated on that because that's a lot of what we do, but I think that if we think of information in that very foreshortened way then of course we'll start coming up with new literacies right and left. - lris
Iris: I agree. WRT semantic information, I think it's best to follow Floridi's general definition: information is well-formed, meaningful data. - Wilk
Copystar's raising my personal issue with how I see "transliteracy" defined. By that definition, lack of competence in *any* area could be considered illiteracy--which makes every one of us illiterate, which renders the term meaningless. I'm oil-painting-illiterate, recognizable-drawing-illiterate; many librarians are statistics-illiterate (including many who use statistics)... It really does negate the term "illiterate" or redefine it as "human." - walt crawford
Copystar: I agree completely re: various illiteracies. But, information literacy standards do not mention or limit media formats. We do that. IL says have an info need, determine best way to fill it, fill it effectively and ethically. - RudĩϐЯaЯïan from Android
Wait--using information effectively: does that cover the production of the final product, in whatever format?or did I just notice that IL is about consumption, not production?? - RudĩϐЯaЯïan from Android
Copystar's example specifically says production, not just consumption. (Although where statistics and numbers are concerned, I think you can make the case for broad "illiteracy" anyway--but that's why some of us use "innumeracy," to keep "literacy" a discrete, clearly-definable term.) - walt crawford
Information Literacy does not just include consumption, though. The standards include *using* information effectively. And I'm kind of at a loss about your innumeracy vs literacy point. "Literacy" has already been appropriated for far more than written text, so I think that ship has sailed, decades ago. My point is that *information* is not about just written, published text. Numbers and visual information are also information. - lris
OK, the ship has sailed. But it really does strike me that Copystar's definition means that everybody's illiterate--which may be a good thing, but also means that illiterate and human become synonyms. Certainly true that information isn't just text. - walt crawford
[Oh, and if I had a horse in the "IL doesn't need to be renamed TL" race, I think I'd be on your side.] - walt crawford
Only if you think of there being two states: literate and illiterate. I think all of this assumes that people are varying degrees of literate in varying circumstances. - lris
^ Steve's point here is why I like to use terms like"novices" and "experts" when discussing people's abilities. - Katy S
Yes, Katy. I'm particularly enamored of John Bean's "expert insider" construction, since it gets at that while also including important elements of genre/discourse theory - lris
And Steve just said it: The real reason I regard expansion of "illiterate" as unfortunate. - walt crawford
interestingly, the education field is calling this 'multi-modal literacy' with a slew of publications and rubrics - Aaron the Librarian
the writing instructors also call multi-modal multimodal. http://multimodal-research.wikispaces.com/ - Joe
I am pretty sure I do BI. My experience is closer to Deborah's. The one time I tried to be diff, i got comments to just teach the database! That said, i heard from colleagues who were teaching the UPS peeps (basically kinda Liberal arts) , they did manage to pull off the encourage thinking , discussion type sessions so it all depends on the audience. Oh well next up is the Yale-NUS peeps..So we will see... - aaron
ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
What do you call it when you're being productive at things that need to be done, but it's not the thing that you *need* to be productive on? I need two of me. Just during work hours.
I have a specific category for that: Procrastination Work. I trick myself into doing work when I avoid other work. :) - That's So CAJ!
I call it "my life." - lris
Definitely procrastination work. Productive, but avoidant. ;) - ellbeecee
Yep, my phrase is "productive procrastination." - LB needs a break.
You are not procrastinating, you are being productive in a different direction! - Andy
Structured procrastination. Check it out: http://www.structuredprocrasti... - Wilk
I've never called it "structured procrastination" but it was the only way I managed back when I was in demand. (Claiming it isn't procrastination is exactly wrong: It *being* procrastination is what makes it work.) - walt crawford
Stephen Francoeur
Pull quote: "One way of thinking about transliteracy is as transfer of learning applied to communication and information technology skills. It is teaching with an eye towards adaptability. Interfaces change. Social media sites come and go. Students graduate and lose access to your library’s resources. Transliteracy simply asks us to prepare for these inevitabilities by asking whether we’re teaching skills that move across the diversity of information resources." - Stephen Francoeur
... yeah, that isn't what they were saying six months ago. - RepoRat
Given the sheer number of SlideShare error pages I encountered, I'm not even sure I caught the whole argument...but, well, what RR says. In a way, it's like "Library 2.0": Once you have a Neat Name, there's an awful lot of energy devoted to making sure it stands for something new (and Guruable)--whether it does or not. - walt crawford
[Yes, I read the entire post before looking at the slides. Didn't help convince me that there's something there. Not that my opinion matters. The opinions of conference committees, publishers, grant funders matter.] - walt crawford
I was at the presentation that Lane did and walked away thinking that I've long been doing the things that fall under his transliteracy rubric in my one-shot workshops (teaching transferrable skills, teaching how to use Google. and to how incorporate other media into the search/evaluate/use process, etc.) I still don't buy that the term truly describes a set of activities and abilities that info lit has traditionally overlooked or downplayed. - Stephen Francoeur
@RepoRat: Surprisingly, this actually *is* what I was saying six months ago. Of course, I can only speak for myself. - Wilk
@Walt: Frankly, I think the name is terrible. I'd actually be a whole lot happier if I never had to use the term again. But, it's out there, and there is some substantive research coming out of Liu's original Transliteracies team at UCSB. As to whether it's new, I don't really think it is. Scholars in education and psychology have been talking about this sort of thing for decades. Of... more... - Wilk
@Stephen: Sounds like your one-shots and mine have been similar: everything I talked about has been applied at UTC for years now. I think we're fortunate to work at fairly progressive libraries. However, there are a *lot* of instruction programs that could use a shot in the arm, so to speak. If a buzzword gets them to rethink what they're doing, I have no complaints. - Wilk
@Wilk, I agree about the usefulness of a buzzword for those ends. I'm eager to hear how libraries are working with students to create work that goes beyond the usual research papers. How can we assist the student that is making a video and needs to bring in sources for use in that video? We help students find sources that they use in their presentations but are we really helping them... more... - Stephen Francoeur
@Stephen: I'm with you on Standards 4 and 5. For a variety of reasons, library instruction has had a lot of trouble addressing them. However, I think the more relevant ACRL Standard for my presentation is Standard 2, specifically Indicator 2, Indicator 3, and Indicator 5, which all deal with using multiple resources to find information. - Wilk
Stephen Francoeur
Spaces to study or spaces on shelves? - http://senseandref.blogspot.com/2011...
Pull quote: "All I'm pointing out is that it makes me uncomfortable when I think of libraries discarding massive swaths of their collections solely because they need to make room for collaborative spaces or cafes, while ignoring that the students and faculty want books and coffee." - Stephen Francoeur
I really couldn't disagree with this more if I tried, but I ain't gonna try. - RepoRat
I don't fully disagree with it - but I think the larger problem is how we represent weeding projects to our constituents. "Hey, look, we're building this awesome learning commons and going to have 800 more study rooms, oh and by the way we don't have enough space so we have to get rid of some books" is not how you do it - because what people hear then is "they're getting rid of books to... more... - ellbeecee
I am a fanatical weeder at my public library, but I confess to hoping that the university hangs on to everything. Or at least everything I might want access to. Because, you know, I'm selfish that way. - laura x
and, dang it, i was trying so hard to get a response from RepoRat. - Wilk
ellbeecee: you're absolutely right. the problem is that there are quite a few library administrators out there who treat these separate conversations as one and the same. - Wilk
Yes - they say "I've got their attention NOW so let me tell them everything I can" - and I understand that impulse. I've had faculty who were so hard to get in touch with that I tended to do that when I finally got five minutes. But it would have been far better to focus on, say, the weeding project. Because let's be fair, many faculty don't care about the facilities so much as long as they can get the articles they want when they need them. - ellbeecee
Well, okay, I agree about the weeding vs. space decisions convo. totally separate. and agree that patrons can be entitled, backward-facing pains in the you-know-what. but so-called "blank learning spaces" aren't. from where I'm sitting, they're knowledge PRODUCTION spaces, and I'm all in favor of 'em, print books or no damn print books. (Well, print books for show, at least, 'cos we'll get lynched if there ain't none at this point in history.) - RepoRat
We're actually in the early stages of a massive weeding campaign. We are one of the biggest transportation libraries in the world, but most of our collection isn't being used and we can't really afford to be a defacto repository considering how much space costs, how much staff time it takes to maintain such a collection, and how little any of this fits within the mission of our parent... more... - kendrak
I'm all in favor of "knowledge production" spaces too. But what, pray tell, is the difference between a bookless library learning commons and the media lab over in the student center? Like I said, I want to see learning commons *in* the library, not *instead of* the library. - Wilk
Well, as a lot of library resources are going electronic and there isn't so much a need for physical books (ymmv on your subjects), the value our library currently provides is a learning commons and access to knowledgeable staff to help with research. That's not going to change. If anything, it's going to get better. - kendrak
Georgie: I suppose it does depend on subject areas, I'm in Philosophy and Religion, where 41% of all titles have circulated over the past 10 years. But, that's neither here nor there. I'm totally with you that a huge part of the value of the library is in its function as a learning commons/knowledge production space/etc. But that learning and knowledge production comes through... more... - Wilk
The question of the dichotomy between books and study spaces is raised in the article I posted about a while ago that looked at how the space helped users feel connected to the learning and research mission of the institution. Having books as adornment helps users feel like their in a library and that they're are actively engaged in learning far more than having a coffee shop does. - DJF
nothing to add here, just this: total Wilk fan girl here. - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Wilk: the difference is LIBRARIANS. I'm dead serious about that. It sure as hell ain't books. - RepoRat
DJF, are you referring to the article in September's CR&L on assessing libraries as place? It's a fantastic article, brings in psychology of religion and works on assessing the fuzzy goals we all have in our mission statements. (http://crl.acrl.org/content... Serving Higher Education’s Highest Goals: Assessment of the Academic Library as Place) - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Repo: if librarians are the only difference, and collections (print AND digital) don't matter, then I suppose you'd agree that the annual ALA conference is one hell of a library. - Wilk
DJF: reading it now. this really is a great article. Rudi: aw shucks, right back at ya - Wilk
Librarians doing librarianly stuff for patrons, I meant. So no, ALA Annual ain't a library. But a librarian sitting with a group putting together a video to talk about copyright and fair use and Creative Commons and podsafe music? I actually don't give a flying flip what four walls surround them, or (for that matter) whether any walls do. THAT is a library, my friend! - RepoRat
Repo: You know, the Dean of students office puts together some awesome videos about copyright, and some really good workshops, too. Maybe we can designate them a branch library? Seriously, though, the whole "librarians ARE the library" thing is just too dang chauvinistic for my tastes and, besides, I can't see my magic library-making aura anyway. I guess its all semantics anyway. You... more... - Wilk
I think we've reached the agree-to-disagree point. I don't think it's chauvinistic to say that we as librarians have a crapton of usefully-applied, not-available-elsewhere knowledge domains that don't actually need print books to give them meaning. I think it's survival-oriented! Sure, we overlap with other service providers, but we always have -- and we have our angles that nobody else... more... - RepoRat
oh dear, have you been under the impression that I think "the answer is print books on shelves"? I don't know that I've ever said anything like that. I'm concerned with the library as a collection and the value of the information we make accessible, not with books in particular. - Wilk
I think I see the definition! Library=the selection and curation of information regardless of format, professionals possessing and sharing the knowledge required for finding and working with that information, in spaces designed to allow to effectively work with that information, with our professional assistance available for navigating the informational and producing knowledge/the final product? - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Fair enough, Wilk. I have a few different reactions there. One is centered around the idea that open access is here to stay. (Arguments can be had about what percentage of "the literature" will be OA; they're irrelevant to this discussion IMO.) In that context, what does "library as collection" mean? (See e.g. Eric Hellman's blog post... more... - RepoRat
Wish I could like my own thread. - Stephen Francoeur
Obvious self-promotion: this vid of mine http://vimeo.com/20019850 talks about the coll-dev side of this question at some length. - RepoRat
I really love the U.C. Berkeley Main Library. It has bookshelves surrounding the reading areas, but has extremely high-density rolling shelves running along the length of the library, so it has a sense of space, but also a high capacity, along with that wonderful feeling of being completely surrounded by books when between rolling stacks. http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_... (Sorry for the bad photo. It's the most explicative I could find on Google) - Kevin Fox
Reporat, those are really good questions and really good answers. As to the conundrums, those are some tricky little devils, aren't they? I don't see that I disagree with you on any of it. In any event, this thread got going because I wrote that I don't think adding more study space is a sufficient reason for weeding books. Like it or not, libraries have lots of printed books and we... more... - Wilk
I'm down with that. :) - RepoRat
sweet. first drink is on me. - Wilk
ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Sigh. Cancelled all fall travel on doctor's and boss's orders. I will not see you guys at B&C, Access, or Internet Librarian. I am having a huge librarian boo-hoo moment. (I know, I was lucky to get to go in the first place, but I am still hella disappointed.)
Awww darn. Was looking forward to seeing you at B&C again this year. Glad you're taking care of yourself, though. - Kirsten
Un-like. - Andy
fukkity. - jambina
boo. :( - ellbeecee
Duncan and I have all paws crossed that your health gets itself sorted out and pronto. - maʀtha
:( Sad!!! - Hedgehog
I am sorry. :( - Mark Kille
how the f*ck did this get liked. that'll teach me for using a touch-screen. Sorry Miss Harris, I was hoping to hang out. :-( - Wilk
Rachel Walden
Grammar geeks: "a RCT" or "an RCT?" [rct=randomized controlled trial]
I think it's "a RCT" since the reader is still saying 'randomized controlled trial' and it's just a textual abbreviation. I think. But I'm making that up. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
I am waffling, because in my head it's "an rct" - I'm not mentally translating into the full words. I can see your point, too, though. - Rachel Walden
@Rachel - and if that's how it's said, i completely agree with you! I left my APA manual at the office, though. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
use "an" if the abbreviation has a voiced vowel when spoken aloud. So, "an RCT" is correct but "an CAT scan" is not. - Wilk
ooh, "an history" drives me batty :) - Rachel Walden
"An RCT." - walt crawford
Can you solve this reference question? - http://senseandref.blogspot.com
Can you solve this reference question?
I've been off the ref desk for a billion zillion years, but isn't the answer to this just "run it through worldcat"? - John Fink
Perhaps. Of course, you're assuming that every book has a record in Worldcat. - Wilk
Ruth Kneale
If you're within the interset of librarians and FFers, please say hi & where you're from! (PS: thank you!)
Kicking off, hi from Tucson Arizona. - Ruth Kneale
Hi from Christchurch, New Zealand! - Deborah Fitchett
Hello from Sheffield, England :) - Pete's Got To Go
Hi from Western Australia - Kathryn is a free elf
Hi from Atlanta, GA - ellbeecee
Hi from Laurel, MD - Christina Pikas
Hallo from Helen (an endangered school librarian) from Sheffield, UK - wensleydalelass
Hi from Odenton, MD - Alan
Howdy from Montreal, Quebec. - Megan loves summer
Greetings from Macon, GA - Sir Shuping is just sir
Hello from La Crosse, Wisconsin - Galadriel C.
Hi from South Bend, Indiana - Catherine Pellegrino
Howdy from Oklahoma City! - Kirsten
wünscht Ihnen guten Morgen aus Shippensburg, Pennsylvania - Aaron the Librarian
Hi from Chattanooga, TN! - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Hey dude, from southern CA - Jaclyn aka spamgirl
Twin Cities are where its at! (MN) - maʀtha
Hello from Maryville, MO! - Kathy
Hi from Toronto, Ontario - John Dupuis
Hi from Livermore, California, as a somewhat-retired "library person" but non-librarian. - walt crawford
Hi from New York, New York. - Stephen Francoeur
Hi From Belcamp, MD. (NE MD) - ♫Maurice the Dolphin♫
Hello from Pullman, WA! - Lorena O'English
Hola from Berkeley, CA! - kendrak
*pictures Ruth putting pins on a map* - maʀtha
hello from Vancouver, WA! - holly #ravingfangirl
hello from lovely and historic Bordentown NJ, settled in 1682. - Andy
Greetings from Niagara Falls. - Blake
Hello from Quebec city! - Dominique Papin
Hi from Chicago, IL - Hedgehog
Y'all are great! Thank you! - Ruth Kneale
Library student waving hello from New Orleans. - Derrick
Hello from Lincoln, NE! - Christa
Hi from Dunn, NC ;) - Mr. The Jason Fleming
Mary Beth from Rochester, MN - Mary Beth Sancomb Moran
Tyler, TX - Angel R. Rivera
Yo from Iowa City/Coralville, Iowa! - laura x
Hi from a circulation desk in Colorado Springs, CO. - Marianne
Hello from south-central Minnesota (and my living room couch at the moment) - barbara fister
Ahoy hoy from Chattanooga, Tenn. - Wilk
You all are awesome and have helped me a lot - thanks so much! - Ruth Kneale
Joe, from Denver... Well Littleton, not the town of Littleton, an area of unicorporated Jefferson County that is called Littleton according to the post office. - Joe from iPod
Hey! from La Crosse, WI - Jen from BuddyFeed
Hello from New Orleans (but still a Minnesota girl at heart)! - Caitlin from Android
Jason Griffey
I might be in the market for a new car. Anyone drive a hybrid or an EV that they love?
You don't want either. Get the VW Jetta TDI. - Wilk
I looked at the VW TDI options with my last car, and didn't love it. You have one? - Jason Griffey
Don't know what you need in options, but the TDI gets you bettr mileage without sacrificing performance. I don't have one but I've driven just about everything under the sun (used to run cars for the local motor mall) - Wilk from iPod
I've got a 2009 Prius that I like a lot. DM me if you want details. - Catherine Pellegrino from iPod
ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Is it me, or is Taiga always bemoaning/predicting the Killing Off of the Library? It's getting old. I'd love to see them start making provoking statements of how libraries might get to "awesome" under their AUL/AD tutelage. *yawn* - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤ from Bookmarklet
I'll admit, the 10th point made me laugh. Of course there is significant overlap between excess MLISs and excess Humanities PhDs. I'm sure of it. (oops! I meant 10th.) - kendrak
#10, a gimme. This has been the case *at least* since I went to library school in the early 2000s, and probably the case through the 1990s as well. I wish Taiga would be a little more imaginative. - John Fink
And we keep listening to them because...why? - Angel R. Rivera
That was good for a laugh. And yes, I literally LOL'd when I read some of those. - Katy S
D'oh - almost double posted this... WARMAIDEN! *SHAKES FISTS* - Aaron the Librarian
It makes me sad that these folks are probably our big-name library decision makers. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
still waiting for Radical Transparency from Lady Taiga - copystar
Hey colleen, want to start our own forum of "provocative statements" where we make up stupid shit about the future? I'll start: #1: Within five years, circulation stats will drop 95% because iPad ebook cloud derp. - Wilk
#2 within five years, librarians will be hunted for food. - John Fink
#3 within 5 years, all newly printed books will be disemvoweled to save space in offsite facilities. - Meg VMeg
#8 - within 5 years, all library information will be implanted via a chip into incoming students' and faculty members' brains. The librarian will be able to speak directly to them through wifi that connects to the aforementioned chip - Katy S
katy s has given me a brilliant arduino idea - John Fink
John - I got it from Feed by M T Anderson - Katy S
wasn't there a holographic librarian in some terrible movie about eight years ago or something? Like maybe it was that Time Machine reboot. - John Fink
Hey now, I have to defend the utter brilliance of Taiga's #8, since I said it first. :P -- http://contemplativelibrarian.... - Mark Kille
You all renew my faith in all that is fabulous. Lane gets extra points for use of "derp" "cloud" and "ebook" all in the same statement. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
I think there was a holographic librarian in this episode of Murder She Wrote where they were in virtual reality and it was really bad. - kendrak
damn, I didn't know that MSW was so crazy. That reminds me of the Dukes of Hazzard episode I watched that was all about copyright infringement. - John Fink
Is Lady Taiga the Lada Gaga of libraries? Why do we need to make weird things? - kendrak
Meg, I think holographic literacy is really the core function of a professionally-staffed academic library. - Mark Kille
What I'm trying to understand is why they don't see that their #2 is fundamentally incompatible with their #5. - Mark Kille
Doesn't have to be coherent. Just has to cover all the provocative bases. - Meg VMeg
"We don't have to think ourselves, we just have to make you think"? - Mark Kille
"Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain!" - Aaron the Librarian
#13 It's all your fault - copystar
#666 FYIGM. - John Fink
#18 Library associations will all change their name to various non-taiga geographical regions in the interest of increased diversity - Katy S
#T2: Within five years, OCLC Web Scale Management Services becomes self-aware, finds Sarah Connor - Wilk
#25 Within five years, the entire idea of cloud computing will be obsolete, replaced by exosphere computing. - LB needs a break.
I also want to officially record my cackles at Meg VMeg's #12. - Regular Amanda
Oh, and ωαřмaiden, in your first statement you totally captured what drives me nuts about these Taiga things: I see a lot of incredibly fearful statements, without any accompanying leadership towards new models. - Regular Amanda
@Amanda - thanks. That's what wearies me more than the vapid Taiga statements, really - that all of these uberpowerful library czars are in one place, talking, and...*this* is what they generate. It's a bit of a letdown, really. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
We need to make them read _The No Complaining Rule_. :) - LB needs a break.
@warmaiden - letdown indeed. I get that the Taiga statements are supposed to be provocative, but I'd be far more interested in the process if say, six months later Taiga followed up with an outline of how libraries can respond to and thrive in these possible futures. Taiga's all big library leaders, so... help us out a little. - Regular Amanda
Amanda and ωαřмaiden, the fact that they don't follow up with anything constructive makes me wonder who they're trying to provoke. Other library leaders who will then also do little or nothing? - Mark Kille
I did my senior thesis on holograms way back in '89. I thought optical info storage technology was going to be the wave of the future. NOT JUST MICROFILM... HOLOGRAPHIC MICROFILM, BABY! - Joe
Given that some of the folks who have been involved in the Taiga thing were folks I wouldnt trust to manage lunch out of a paper bag, much less a library, I try to take them not-too-seriously. Then again, since these folks do manage large libraries, it's good to keep a wary eye on them. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Some of the LSW folks need to do "Anti-Taiga" (Antaiga?) blog posts with some useful tips. As in, some of y'all who have actual blog readers. As in, not me. - LB needs a break.
Oooh, cool. - LB needs a break.
Consider yourselves provoked? - Kathryn is a free elf
seriously - with charitable reading - what does #9 mean??? we will realize that our previously exclusive and defining services such as cataloguing need to be put out to pasture? Anyone have a more clear interpretation? - Kathryn is a free elf
Kathryn, I didn't get that one either. I wondered if it were some veiled mention of special collections, which are often (sadly) in basements and have been touted as what we'll be showing off in the future. - LB needs a break.
That's how I read it too, Steve. - ellbeecee
I read it as: It doesn't matter if something we do excels by professional standards and is good for society; if it isn't widely used or consciously noticed by our core customers, it gets the axe. - Mark Kille
Wow...just read this stuff, and even my non-Librarian self can see they're super delusional about the future of Libraries! :( - Carlton Hackett
And the award for dumbest use of QR codes goes to.... http://wonder-tonic.com/books2b...
Oh, wow. That's just horrible. - LB needs a break.
Of course, you do realize it's a joke, right? - Wilk from iPod
Erm, no, I didn't. - LB needs a break.
Stephen Francoeur
Essential Readings in the Philosophy of Librarianship: The Atlas of New Librarianship (part 1) - http://senseandref.blogspot.com/2011...
Pull quote: "Summing up, The Atlas of New Librarianship is pretty much a let-down. It adopts a relativist world-view, it is philosophically sloppy and it ignores the existence of any competing philosophy of librarianship." - Stephen Francoeur
This is my first-ever library school textbook. I think I'll find reading it even more interesting with this review around. - Marianne
I'm pleased that he recovered my presumably-lost comment...but now caught in a dilemma: He's telling me that the book's worth reading for practical advice, and the next commenter that there's not much useful practical advice if you already follow trends. (I find Lankes confounding along those lines, but that's me.) - walt crawford
Not a fan of Lankes OR positivism. Sometimes life is hard *sigh* - Meg VMeg
Meg, I wiould expect nothing less from a fan of NEGATIVLAND. - Stephen Francoeur
Walt: sorry about the dilemma. There is some good advice, though none of it is particularly new or original. I think I was just trying to be charitable but ha a change of heart between comments. - Wilk from iPod
Meg: Positivism is nothing but a boogeyman scared up by postmodernists. No one is really a positivist (at least not for 80 years). But Lankes is really a Lankestivst. - Wilk from iPod
Lane: Good to hear! You can chalk me down in the non-realist/intrumentalist column, then. - Meg VMeg
Lane: I truly appreciate your latest comment. When Lankes was trying to convert ALA to conversational librarianship and I raised some questions, it became clear to me that one does not argue with Lankes. So I stopped. - walt crawford
Hi all...I think the follow up post is much more interesting. http://senseandref.blogspot.com/2011... In any case, folks are welcome to argue with Lankes, but I do reserve the right to argue back :-) In fact the whole point of the Atlas was to start a conversation about the core of the field and more than a review of functions and technology. I am thrilled that this conversation seems to be going forth. - R. David Lankes
Yep, we already had a fun time with that one, actually: http://friendfeed.com/stephen... (and I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the follow-up post, as well) - Meg VMeg
"a new librarianship based not on books and artifacts but on knowledge and learning." I thought that's what I was doing all along. Actually, I'm pretty sure of it. :| - Andy
Funny, I've been using books and artifacts to help me teach our students to learn stuff and create some knowledge. - Joe
Lankes: Of course you should have the right to argue back. In the past, I felt as though you wouldn't engage unless it was on your "it's all a conversation" terms. Or maybe it's just me. [Oh, and Joe:+10] - walt crawford
Of course, that blurb I quotes could have been written by some PR person. - Andy
As I recall the conversation we were having Walt was on the definition of a "conversation." If you would like to engage in a discussion of objective reality, we could do that. I should be clear...that's not what the Atlas is, it is a theoretical framework, not a philosophical one. It aims at how people behave and how libraries can fit into that, not how the world is. I'm not going to... more... - R. David Lankes
The operative phrase in this quote is 'help me teach': "Funny, I've been using books and artifacts to help me teach our students to learn stuff and create some knowledge" - R. David Lankes
Well said, thanks. - Meg VMeg
Books and artifacts aren't the only things that I use in my teaching toolbox, but they do help me teach. I also try to use my own thoughts and ideas if and when appropriate... - Joe
As someone with a science undergrad, I can relate to what David is getting at at the end of his larger reply. There is an incredible amount of risk aversion in play in the public library field; and while some risk aversion is rather normal, the feeling I get is that it really controls a lot of conversations within the field. I realize that this is a component of "your mileage may vary"... more... - Andy
Stephen Francoeur
Libraries are not in the construction business - http://senseandref.blogspot.com/2011...
Well worth the read! Pull quote: "I want to explain why relativism, in all of its forms, is harmful to librarianship. This type of thinking is self-refuting, it impedes learning, it disenfranchises those who most need our help, it obstructs social progress, and it erodes the value of libraries in society." - Stephen Francoeur
Thanks for sharing my long ass post. - Wilk
Lane, it was really great. I appreciate the effort that went into your post and am eager to read the followup. - Stephen Francoeur
I'll follow up when I get more beer. It takes a minimum of four Yuenglings for me to write anything. - Wilk
So that would be one beer per hour of writing, correct? - Stephen Francoeur
At a bare minimum - Wilk from iPod
Like, but I'll have to read it a couple more times...I'm clearly too old to regard constructivism, um, constructively: I remember how I reacted when a true believer in Wikipedia wrote that, if most people agree that 2+2=5, then 2+2=5. "Batshit" is one way to describe my reaction. (OK, so I'm the son of an engineer and brother of a chemist...) - walt crawford
Walt, i've heard the same strange arithmetic. It's scary how Orwellian constructivism is, isn't it? - Wilk from iPod
It is indeed, and "Orwellian" is a great label. - walt crawford
Lane, I respectfully disagree. - Meg VMeg
Constructivism seems Orwellian when you think you represent the view that should naturally/obviously be in power. - Meg VMeg
I don't believe it's about power; it's about reality. Constructivism denies that there are exterior facts. Those aren't a matter of "power" or "privilege." But I suspect we're not going to agree on this. - walt crawford
We are not. You are correct in that. Whoever is in power effectively defines reality. - Meg VMeg
I come to my philosophy from a background in science (degrees in physics and evolutionary biology). Over the years, the study of science became less interesting to me than the study of how science/knowledge is made (i.e. science and technology studies, which I pursued a doctoral program in before realizing how much I missed my work being hands-on and practical; hence, science... more... - Meg VMeg
I don't agree that facts can be made up by voting. Often, the majority is wrong. Even if 99% of people thought 2+2=5, that is still wrong and is not true in fact. Such as when most people thought all the planets and the sun revolved around the earth. Just because lots of people thought that didn't make it true. The external evidence and the facts eventually won. - Joe
Oh, and Meg, I think you are an awesome librarian, that's a fact, Jack. - Joe
Meg: I come to my philosophy from a background in ethics. Specifically, I'm one of those bleeding heart liberals who believes in human rights, equality and freedom from oppression, all of which are explicitly denied by constructivism. For example, I know (not just believe) that it is morally wrong to sentence gays to death for being gay (as is the consensus view in Uganda). I find this... more... - Wilk
Liking for the awesome sauce that is librarian philosophers. I came to my MLS after masters and a bit of phd work in the Phil of Science, background in evolution and microbiology. I gotta say I'm mostly with Lane on this one...I appreciate coherence views of epistemology, but prefer mine grounded in nice comfy rationalistic facts. Like math, and physics, and human rights. :-) - Jason Griffey
1: Bruno Latour didn't found STS. He originated Actor-Network Theory (ANT). Maybe that is what you are thinking of? - Meg VMeg
2: People can and do violate human rights in the name of science, these things are not mutually exclusive - Meg VMeg
1. Sorry, I got ahead of myself. Latour didn't invent STS, he was just one of the most influential theorists in STS. (cf. Laboratory Life: The Construction of Scientific Facts, 1979) - Wilk
There are things that Are and we cannot change them. We might be able to change representations etc, but that is a different thing. Power will make use of whatever tools it can- relativism, absolutism, whatever. Power is the issue. I come at philosophy from a background in political science and religious studies. - Pete's Got To Go
2. People do violate human rights in the name of science all the time. That's obvious. But all a constructivist can do is "agree to disagree" on these matters because there is no fact of the matter about human rights. As a realist, I can say that these violations are flat-out wrong, and objectively so. - Wilk
My Realist International Politics Professor flat out denied the existence of human rights - Pete's Got To Go
Meg: I have no idea what kind of librarian you are--or *who* you are, for that matter. Not my business. I come from a split background: A degree in rhetoric with an informal manner in math. I don't deny biases and power issues. I do deny that knowledge is a social construct. And, unlike Lane, I have neither the expertise nor time to expand that any further. - walt crawford
Yep, I didn't mean to start a pedigree thread. I only brought up my background because otherwise people assume that I don't know anything about science. I am a "science AND construction" person, not a "science OR construction" person. Walt, would you agree that knowledge is socially constructed (via peer-review, for example)? - Meg VMeg
So, is the fact that the earth rotates around the sun a constructed truth? I don't think so. It is a fact no matter what people think or believe. - Joe from iPod
What Joe sez. Facts are not social constructs, and therefore knowledge is not inherently a social construct. Otherwise, this is just too deep a discussion for FF or my tired brain. You're unlikely to turn me into a constructivist; it's probably a waste of time to try. - walt crawford
Peer-review is a process by which research is vetted to ensure that it tracks the truth. For example, in the sciences, the reviewers examine methodology, instruments, check the math, determine reliability and validity, etc. The process is expressly designed to minimize social or cultural influences and all of this is aimed at tracking the truth, not coming to an agreement. Of course, if... more... - Wilk
Joe, I could write an entire book in answer to that question, but luckily someone else already did a bang-up job of it: http://www.amazon.com/Genesis... - Meg VMeg
"So, is the fact that the earth rotates around the sun a constructed truth? I don't think so. It is a fact no matter what people think or believe." <-- Technically, what is a fact is that the heliocentric model is currently the best explanation for the currently available data. (Also, we *could* declare that 2 + 2 = 5; we would just have to redefine the "plus" function.) - Mark Kille
Stephen Francoeur
Dorothea: Such as basic tech support with students while at the ref desk, and.... - Stephen Francoeur
...attending meetings elsewhere on campus that are not about the library... - Stephen Francoeur
I think the work Dorothea is alluding to is on a larger level of magnitude (I'm guessing its along the lines of data curation, and meaningful open access work). At MPOW, I sometimes have difficulty expressing that there is difficult but essential work that libraries need to get into without it being perceived that I somehow don't value the work being done at present. - copystar
Excellent. - Jenica
One thing that I like about this post is that it succeeds in getting me to look at Trzeciak in a different light. Is he actually disparaging librarians, or is he simply devaluing the MLS? Because I've done a lot of the latter myself. As for the question of what kind of PhDs will be clamoring for the job, I think there are some things to keep in mind. 1) There don't have to be huge... more... - Mark Kille
Which now returns me to Jenica's fillet-ing of the Ithaka Library Directors report, and perennial complaints by catalogers that administration doesn't care about what they do. If we pin our professional future on information literacy -- instruction -- then why be surprised when someone suggests that maybe those folks should be pulled from those who have the traditional preparation for college-level instruction? - Mark Kille
What D. just said times ten thousand. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
I also wonder about how well the average Ph.D. has been taught to search and evaluate sources. - Stephen Francoeur
Not arguing with D, C or S. But teaching faculty and university administrations will never base policy on that fact, even if they admitted it privately, which I doubt they would. - Mark Kille
@Stephen - evidence (in terms of interviews with ABDs and other PhD dropouts, graduate faculty members, and even research self-efficacy surveys in the research on doctoral student attrition) says "not very well." @Mark - Teachign faculty & administrators ask for evidence on the one hand and then ignore it on the other, so it's not that I have a lot of faith in their ability to be logical about such decisions. I'm just pointing out that it's essentially a false solution. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Back to the Trzeciak issue, though - even if he is devaluing the MLS, does that mean there are not enough librarians who are both qualified, skilled and passionate to fill his jobs? - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Without seeing his applicant pools, I can't really say. It seems very unlikely to me that there wouldn't be. However, given the rep he's building, it's quite possible that there won't be enough excellent MLS candidates who will want to apply... - Mark Kille
Re: false solutions: sure. But a true solution that undermines the whole project of higher education conducted by scholar-teachers is not an implementable solution. - Mark Kille
As a PhD teaching faculty type at a very large research institution, I find I have more in common with our librarians than with tenure-track faculty, including the covert impression that I must have failed as an academic to have settled for a teaching job (although I have an MA in teaching, by choice, I just didn't EVER want to teach kids). I would agree with warmaiden that grads are... more... - Mickey Schafer
@Mark Kille, per options 3/4 -- yes! And for option #2, humanities are not the only ones looking for alternate routes. I've spoken with science grads also wondering if there is life in academia outside the lab. - Mickey Schafer
For the record, my real problem is with the precedent that Trzeciak is setting. I bet there are quite a few great PhDs out there with excellent research skills who really do want to work in libraries as their first choice. They have every right to be academic librarians in my book. But how long will that last? If McMaster-style hiring turns into a trend, I worry that self-conscious... more... - Wilk
Lane, yes, I imagine the "library postdoc" would soon enough fall into as much disrepute as in other disciplines. We also would most likely see increasing adjunctification of library work. - Mark Kille
The thrust of Treziak(sp?) points are funny(odd) to me. MPOW had a PhD (or terminal degree - but MLS was not considered terminal) requirement for librarian positions for at least a decade before I got hired (without a PhD). Why was I hired without a PhD in this environment? The PhD holders did not have the combined tech skills and experience desired for my position (Systems & Electronic Resources Librarian) which basically means if it has anything to do with a computer (except cataloging) "I'm it" - Aaron the Librarian
The "soft skills" ("traditional" reference, instruction, collection development tasks) are not as easily picked up as a layman might suppose. The public-facing librarian needs to be a people person (or be able to fake it well) to be maximally effective. Every public interaction will be perceived as "what the library is" - if it's a negative experience for the new user/patron, guess what? - Aaron the Librarian
I'm nervous about an argument that seems to say that phds and IT people without MLIS are not passionate about libraries, because they didn't bother to go for a MLIS. While admitting that library school wasn't that hard, suggesting that academic libraries should hire MLIS holders only because it serves as a signal of passion for libraries? If that's the case does librarianship really exist as a real discipline or profession? Or can anyone with passion for libraries call themselves a librarian? - aaron
A response to the response, "I'm Nobody! Who are you?" Reactions to Jeff Trzeciak http://www.personal.psu.edu/mjf25...
Found via http://ff.im/AYXlC - Joe
Why we need a dislike button (not for you posting it, but for the post itself). - Angel R. Rivera
makes me glad that I've moved into the public library arena where all I need to worry about is epublishing - John: Thread Killer
looking at the post - maybe Trzeciak would have had more time to explain himself in the talk if he hadn't wasted so much time talking about his qualifications at the beginning of it. Seriously, he about put me to sleep when he did that. I know I'm being snarky, but the talk was the very place to explain himself if more needed to be said. If he didn't do so, it's on him. - Katy S
Private ;( - Mr. The Jason Fleming from Android
Like I tell my employees: "I can't grade you based on intent, only performance." Also, apparently I disrespected anyone who's ever gone to grad school in my own post, (. Sigh. It's like no one even KNOWS me) as he quotes me at length as a bitch. I even got a "W-o-w." I guess that means I won't be heading to Penn anytime soon, eh? :P - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Nothing else on the other post. Sorry, I didn't know she had a private feed. I am I missing an icon somewhere that says so, or do I just need to remember that Bobby and Suzy (or whomever) have private feeds. - Joe
I am not saying I agree with the post, I just thought y'all should know that it existed. - Joe
oh, no prob. thanks for the link. reading it now - Mr. The Jason Fleming
The guy had one or two interesting things to say, but if you're going to call people out for supposed misreadings? You really need to not do such a thorough, verging on histrionic, job of misreading the posts you're complaining about. mote, beam. ugh. - Marianne
I felt like he completely misunderstood what Colleen et al were saying. - Rachel Walden
Speaking in defense of Trzeciak and this other poster, oh, and the idea that you just call yourself a "librarian" once you have 14 years in the library field...nah, I got nothing. And I had more than 3x14 years in the library field... - walt crawford
If this is how admins are going to read responses (really, Trzeciak's beef with MLS rigor is nothing the rest of us haven't called for before, that was hardly the distinguishing characteristic of his talk), I don't know what to say. Other than that maybe Trzeciak would be well-served porting those deep heart to heart convos he had at Penn back to his own library. - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤ from Android
There's also some "Don't blame us because you're mad at him, we wanted him to give a scary talk", there. - Jenica
Jenica - I read it more as "I asked him to give a scary talk but I didn't expect people to actually publicly react to it. Oh no! Must. Do. Damage. Control. [but do it badly" - Katy S
Ha. Yes. That. I was just being polite. :) - Jenica
I want to start handing out "Own Your Shit" ribbons (with full understanding that I also occasionally earn one). - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
Looking at this post and its comments, and the posts he links to and their comments, and I'm continuing to see this very interesting gender divide coming out in some of the discussions. - Katy S
Cecily - In the way that those who favor moving from a model based on a traditionally feminized profession (one that is still largely female) and moving towards professional backgrounds that are, traditionally, male just so happen to be male. - Katy S
Yeah, I haven't seen a woman say "Go Jeff!" yet. (did I miss any?) I'm operating on the assumption and belief that it's action based on implicit acculturated gender understandings rather than explicit discrimination. But I'm an optimist. - Jenica
Rebecca Jones is a local library industry consultant and JT sockpuppet: http://dysartjones.com/2011... - John Dupuis
She also commented on mita's post a while back: http://librarian.newjackalmanac.ca/2011... - John Dupuis
I think mita does an excellent job of framing things in term of the implicit acculturated gender understandings Jenica references above (and addressing a bunch of other stuff) at her (other) post here: http://librarian.newjackalmanac.ca/2011... - and I notice that her blog has two male commenters who get what she's saying. I do feel like there is a gender-related lean, but it's not such a sharp lean as all that. - Marianne
Marianne - I'm not saying it's universal - it isn't - but there's enough there that I find it interesting. - Katy S
Me too, Katy - that's why I mentioned mita's post. - Marianne
I may not agree with her, but I would never call Rebecca Jones anybody's sockpuppet. - kendrak from FFHound(roid)!
I'll give R.Jones credit: Her comment and her post are so consistent that one looks like a slightly-excerpted copy of the other. Neither impresses me a whole lot (but then, I'm less in awe of the speaker lineup than she is). I haven't seen *many* male librarians say "Go Jeff!" either... - walt crawford
For what it's worth, I wrote another post trying to bring gender back in the conversation. Just after I posted it, I came across the "I'm nobody article..." From what I read, the common denominator for those defending Jeff's talk are those involved in the CLIP program. But the issue shouldn't be MLIS v pHD. It should be permanent jobs v. causal labour - I think both sides can get behind that http://librarian.newjackalmanac.ca/2011... - copystar
ACRLblog has weighed in, sort of: http://acrlog.org/2011... - copystar
I'm assuming that stevenb is Steven Bell, a Taiga guy, right? - John Fink
Yup. Also Steven Bell, an ACRL guy, and Steven Bell, a LSW guy. that stevenb, he gets around;). - Marianne
So, the uproar of academic libraries is that the idea of replacing MLS people with PhDs. The uproar of public libraries is that they want to replace MLS people with paraprofessionals. So, in one location, it's academic inflation; on the other hand, deflation. This is like some sort of Goldilocks reasoning: "This job needs more academics! This job needs less qualifications!" Where are the positions where an MLS is 'just right'? - Andy
Andy: if the uproar really is about replacing MLS people with PhDs, then the uproarious are part of the problem. Librarians come in all stripes: MLS, PhD, both, or neither. The uproar is really over replacing librarians with non-librarians. - Wilk
Lane: O RLY? - Andy
Yes. Really. - John Fink
Lane, I agree with you. But I also have some uproar in me over the idea of replacing people of clear professional qualifications, who therefore tend to expect stable, healthy jobs with reasonable wages (no matter how pro-change, agile, innovative, etc they may be IN those jobs, which they should be) with people who will accept being treated and (under)paid like skilled, deunionized... more... - Marianne
Lane: My non-obnoxious answer is that I just see this as a shift within library worlds. With academic libraries, it's the idea of hiring people with more academic credentials from non-librarian degree backgrounds in lieu of hiring MLS people. Within public libraries (and some school libraries, for that matter), it's the idea of hiring paraprofessionals in lieu of hiring MLS people. My... more... - Andy
Andy, many academic libraries are also going like whoa on hiring paraprofessionals instead of MLS people. cf. not staffing McMaster's reference desk with mls'd librarians EVER. - Marianne
Is it Ok to be taiga and LSW - or does that disrupt the universe in some way? :) - steven bell
there might be a rip in the space-time continuum. on a more serious note, i'm still stuck on trzeciak's style. he's not doing his ideas any service and it makes me sort of question his motives. he doesn't seem to value the human element much, which really makes me wonder. - kendrak
The PhD with some info science training would be a formidable candidate, especially in academic libraries. My objection is to generalizations of flat-out replacement of librarians with PhDs with no info organization/access training. (i.e., you can't just replace a polisci collection development librarian with someone with a PhD in Comparative politics and expect things to work). I'm... more... - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
He could be a robot sent from the future where only robots with PhDs work at libraries. He wants to hire people from IT so that they can go on to develop Skynet in the future. Although a Skynet built by librarians would entail many other committee meetings with other robots about how to handle this 'human' issue. Robots would be complaining that they pay their Skynet membership fees but Skynet doesn't actually *do* anything for them. - Andy
I'm IT-savvy. I worry. I worry all the time. - John Fink
<snark>Someone needs to make a robot-like looking sockpuppet of Jeff being run by Gorman. Come on, hop to it. </snark> - Joe
wow, i'm glad he's not my UL. - tara
Steve: I think they'd find common cause against Blog People right now. - Andy
Interesting: Rebecca Jones co-presented a fairly similar presentation with JT in 2010: http://dysartjones.com/wp-cont... - John Dupuis
Good find John! Pages 9 and 10 of that presentation are very interesting to me.... - copystar
Also page 4 - next to "image problem" a white-haired lady holding a book. I'm in trouble. - barbara fister
Judging by those who has been fired and who has been pressed to retire from McMaster, yes, you would be in trouble. It's frustrating to see this all so clearly laid right out and yet many people don't want to see it or talk about it (which is why FF:LSW is so valuable to many of us). Does anyone want to weigh on the matter that the centre of the org chart is a big CEO and no librarians in sight? - copystar
CEOs in Academia make me twitchy. - kendrak
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