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Alex Scoble
Alex Scoble
Storage is storage. All storage for computers is measured the same way. The marketing guys measure KB as 1000 bytes and the software/OS measures KB as 1024 bytes. It doesn't matter if your storage is a hard drive, SD card, CF card, MMC card or what. They all get measured the same way on the box and on the OS. You will ALWAYS lose storage because...
June 19 - Comment - Share
of the 1000 to 1024 conversion. - Alex Scoble
And RAM is not storage. - Alex Scoble
A discussion about this, and the resulting Kibi/Mibi/Gibibyte units: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Jalada
If I remember right, a group of Californian people won a class action lawsuit exactly about this issue. - Nir Ben Yona
Have fun with that - Josh Haley
Alex Scoble is really cool. - Kevin Fox
Congratulations. Now you are wrong on two threads on the subject. - Alex Scoble
Chips are chips. No matter what kind of chips they are, they're all measured in millimeters. Especially potato chips. - Kevin Fox
Alex, your statement is true in general but if the Toshiba data sheet is right it appears it isn't always the case. - Arthur Guy
You draw a false distinction between 'RAM' and 'storage'. RAM chips are a medium, while 'storage' is a concept. You can store data on RAM, and you can use 'storage' for things entirely unrelated to storage. You draw an arbitrary line between the two, where you put NAND chips in the 'storage' side and thereby declare that they must be measured in billion-bytes instead of gigabytes, but that's simply not correct. - Kevin Fox
And I submit to you that Toshiba made a boo-boo. There's no SD memory (and their datasheet plainly says that the memory in question is an SD/MMC flash unit) that is anything other than 32GB as measured as 32,000,000,000bytes by the storage manufacturer. - Alex Scoble
And I submit to you that I have more faith in Toshiba, especially when a 'boo-boo' would be grounds for another class-action lawsuit, than I have in you saying 'Toshiba is wrong because storage is storage' and I invite you to prove me wrong via arguments that go beyond blind faith in your own perfection. - Kevin Fox
There is not a false distinction. RAM is not storage. Your computer does not STORE data on RAM. It STORES data on storage. Data in RAM is used only for near term computational purposes. - Alex Scoble
Ah, but you *can* store data in RAM. It's volatile memory and has to be maintained with power, but you're using an arbitrary definition for 'storage'. - Kevin Fox
Kevin, look around you. Do you see any SDHC, or other storage cards out there that say 34.359GB? No. You don't. End of argument. You are wrong. Get over it. - Alex Scoble
RAM, Storage, its all the same, its just a lot of locations where 1's and 0's can be kept either permanently or temporarily; the size issue isn't related to the hardware it is just how they are measured by different people. - Arthur Guy
No, you CANNOT store data in RAM long term. Once you turn off the machine, it's wiped. - Alex Scoble
There's a fundamental difference in how STORAGE is used and how RAM is used, even if you can possibly use RAM as storage. - Alex Scoble
The PC sees them completely differently. - Alex Scoble
The broader point is that use does not define capacity measurement. Whether you *can* or *do* use something for storage is not a definitive litmus test for whether it is measured, in practice, bt billion-bytes or true gigabytes. It's a rule of thumb, but not the absolute rule that you purport it to be. - Kevin Fox
And accesses them from completely different busses. - Alex Scoble
Yes, use does absolutely define how the marketing people measure STORAGE. There is no 1024 to 1000 conversion for RAM. - Alex Scoble
And guess what bus that uses? The computer ABSOLUTELY cannot see that as RAM because it is STORAGE. - Alex Scoble
By your arguments, the RAM hard drive I linked to must be measured in billion-bytes because it's a storage device that uses SATA, but this is stupid. - Kevin Fox
Isn't flash memory RAM? - Victor Ganata
The difference there is that they don't sell the RAM with the device. If they did, in that case they would say that drive had 34.36GB of storage when you bought it, because ALL storage is measured the same. - Alex Scoble
No, Victor. Flash memory is static. It doesn't lose the data when power is lost. It's storage. - Alex Scoble
The ram disk I linked to uses RAM chips for STORAGE. The iPhone uses NAND chips for STORAGE. NAND chips are more like RAM in that they are always a binary-addressable array of bits and come in capacities of 2^N, unlike the STORAGE media you're talking about. It's irrelevant what marketing guys call them. The fact is that the number of allocatable bits is a factor of 2 and in the iPhone's case it's 2^30 bytes. - Kevin Fox
Alex -- you are just wrong here. The line between RAM, flash and hard disk space isn't that bright. As for how the OS measures it, I get a different value if I type "df -h" vs. "df -si". One uses powers of 1024 and the other powers of 1000. There are, however, *conventions* whereby hard drives are quoted in powers of 1000 and ram is a power of 1024. My intuition (and Kevin's) is that the iPod falls under the power of 1024 convention. - Joe Beda
Hey we can dance around this all day, but the fact remains that the iPhone is sold as a 32GB device and actually has 29.8GB of useful space as measured by the OS. I'm not wrong. - Alex Scoble
That's pretty fancy, Alex. I never contested that point. My contention has been that the pre-formatted capacity of the iPhone's memory is a true 32 gigabytes. You repeatedly told me this was incorrect, but now that you see you might be wrong you're backpedaling, but at least now we agree. - Kevin Fox
No, the pre-formatted capacity of the iPhone's memory is not 32gigabytes as measured by the OS. It is 29.8GB. - Alex Scoble
I'm not the one who's backpedaling here. You stated incorrectly that it's a true 32GB, when it is not. It is 32GB when GB=1,000,000,000 bytes. - Alex Scoble
You're wrong. - Kevin Fox
Prove it. - Alex Scoble from IM
Your Toshiba spec sheet doesn't prove anything because it is wrong. The OS shows that I'm right. - Alex Scoble from IM
I've provided evidence of the chip used, and I've provided documentation from the chip manufacturer that backs up my point. I have proven it. If you think the manufacturer is wrong then the burden is now on you. - Kevin Fox
No, the burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders to show that the OS is incorrectly reporting the usable capacity of the flash card. - Alex Scoble from IM
Show us where the OS says you're right. Show us how it proves that the discrepancy isn't the result of hidden system partitions, system overhead, ZFS journaling overhead, checksums, system software, vm volume reservation, bad block mapping, or any of a dozen other things that gobble your space before you see it. - Kevin Fox
I hesitate to quote wikipedia, but here goes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...): "Today the usage of the word "gigabyte" is ambiguous: the value depends on the context. When referring to RAM sizes it traditionally has a binary interpretation of 1024^3 bytes. Some operating systems list file sizes in SI units, but using the binary interpretation. Today, when referring to disk storage capacities it usually means 1000^3 bytes." - Joe Beda
Back in the days when PDAs lost data if the battery died, was the RAM where we put our mail, tasks, calendar entries, notes and documents considered storage? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
"I invite you to prove me wrong via arguments that go beyond blind faith in your own perfection." -- Kevin Fox. LOL - Cristo
Isn't it ambiguous? Marketing people say 32GB when referring to 1,000,000,000 bytes/GB, OS says 32GB when referring to 1,073,741,824 bytes/GB. They can get away with it because the definition of GB is ambiguous considering 'Giga' is referring to 1,000,000,000. The reason the OS is doing a different calculation is because it does everything in base 2, not base 10. And of course marketing people are going to use the one that makes it sound bigger. - Jalada
Yes, Boring, if you lost data when you lost battery that was because the data was stored in RAM and not in storage. The iPhone has a separate bit of RAM by the way. - Alex Scoble
RAM isn't referred to in the same way I THINK due to system architecture - the system architecture NEEDS a proper number, rather than an arbitrary (as far as a computer is concerned) 1000 bytes to a KB. - Jalada
Well, Kevin, I really don't care if you think I'm right or I'm wrong, but when you find a SDHC or MMC chip that specifies 32GB on the box and actually gets you 32GB of usable capacity as measured by the OS (using 1024bytes=kb) only then will you actually know that you are right. Have fun with that though since no such storage exists. - Alex Scoble from IM
And again, the memory used by the iPhone for STORAGE is an SD/MMC chip. - Alex Scoble
If you run an OS that gives you low level access, try using something like dd to measure the actual blocks of a device. Or maybe some sort of low-level partitioner e.g. fdisk. You'll see that Alex is right. - Jalada
Alex, you really don't listen because you prefer arguing to resolution. I've never disputed the issue of 'usable capacity'. I never expect my usable capacity to be equal to (or close to) advertised capacity. My claim is that in the iPhone's case is that the discrepancy is not due to misadvertising 32,000,000,000 bytes of storage as '32GB'. If we've been discussing this for this long and you still choose to ignore this point after my explicitly stating it three times then there's no point in discussing it beyond you getting sadistic glee in pulling the football away at the last moment rather than playing a game. - Kevin Fox
It's a combination, for sure. There's loads of FS overhead. - Jalada
And I'm saying that your premise is wrong. That the storage in the iPod is not unique to the iPod. That it is the same type of storage used in just about every consumer camera on the planet. An SD/MMC flash card. All are measured the same and all will show the same usable capacity by the OS. - Alex Scoble
I don't know how many more ways I can say STORAGE IS STORAGE. And that an SD card whether it's embedded in an iPhone or inserted in to a camera is an SD card. - Alex Scoble
Alex, are all NAND chips based on SD/MMC? If so, can you provide evidence? If not (and it's not) can you provide evidence that the NAND chip in the iPhone is based on SD/MMC? - Kevin Fox
The structure of memory chips (flash being one variant) usually (at least in the past) required 2^N organization. Now I'm wondering if there's some other effect at play here, like the manufacturer increasing the yield of their memory production by being able to segment off flaws on the chip (using the excess capacity as a manufacturing buffer, in essence) and still have a "32GB" device. I don't think the flash device is addressed directly, so the embedded controller might be one way they could play these games. - mikepk
All you have to do is read the Toshiba spec sheet that you provided to see that it specifically states that it is an SD/MMC flash unit. - Alex Scoble
In general, I agree with the functional separation between RAM and storage. I think the line has been blurred and can be, thanks to caching and that hard drive link. I haven't enough knowledge to argue on the size front (and maybe not on the other, either!). - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
LOL, I don't think either of you are really spending any time listening to each other, because you've both already made up your minds (Alex / Kevin) - G. Sigh
You're basing it on the particular spec sheet I linked to? I linked to a generic Toshiba NAND spec sheet. There are 6 of them (in the left hand nav of that page) and they all have the 1024^3 disclaimer, though not all of them are SD/MMC. I don't have data on which one is used in the iPhone. Do you? - Kevin Fox
Wait a second. You are arguing with me based on a spec sheet from Toshiba and you don't even know for sure which storage type they are using? And ridiculing me to boot? - Alex Scoble
Can Sanjeev just step in and settle this? - Cristo
I know they use a Toshiba NAND chip because I can see as much from the teardown. All Toshiba 32gig NAND chips have 1024x1024x1024 disclaimers on their pages, so unless Toshiba is misstating their own specs, or they made an entirely different chip for Apple based on a different architecture, then I felt (and feel) comfortable with my point. - Kevin Fox
@alex I refer you to the Acorn RISC OS that used to create "RAMDrives", mounted storage volumes that actually existed in the RAM of a computer. DOS used to do this too IIRC. Are you drawing the line between volatile and persistant/non-volatile? Either way, the computer still addresses them as N^2, regardless of how we call them. So you are true in that storage is storage. Humans are lazy ;) - alphaxion
Yes, but RAM is always measured the same and even when used in this manner is still not true "storage"...I did not create the unfortunate storage capacity conventions, but they still exist regardless of storage medium (outside of using RAM for "storage" which makes it no longer RAM) - Alex Scoble from IM
RAM is still structured storage used to cache data for quick fetching. It's just when you remove the power source, the data is lost. Which is why its mirror twin, ROM, was created :) - alphaxion
Alex, one quick point. The reason for the 1024 vs 1000 measurement difference isn't really because one is storage and the other is not (it's because one has traditionally been a magnetic medium), it's because of the way the different 'containers' are structured. Chips are built with logic gates that engender a power of 2 structure. That's why OS measure in 2^N because the RAM chips were organized that way (not the other way around). HDD are a magnetic medium so they do not have that same intrinsic structure and can be of arbitrary capacity. - mikepk
Now it could be now that storage is decimal because storage has historically been magnetic in nature. that doesn't change the organizational principles of logic-gate based memory. It may be they've decided to apply magnetic storage's traditional decimal measurement to flash memory, but unless the tech has changed a lot since the last time I designed a logic board, there's wasted space there. It may be used for other purposes, or possibly as a way to increase silicon yield (<- talking out my butt theory there) - mikepk
Yeah, I understand that, but they carried the convention over to flash storage as well. I have no idea why Toshiba's site is the only one for SD cards that specifies the base 2 size for GB when all others specify the normal base 10 size for the same size cards. Seriously, Toshiba's site has to be wrong. Check Transcend, check Corsair, check SanDisk the largest seller of SD memory. - Alex Scoble
SSD are all measured the same way too. - Alex Scoble
I wouldn't belabor this point if I didn't know what I was talking about, just as an FYI. - Alex Scoble
But I've wasted enough of Kevin's time. Now we'll have to wait that much longer for friendfeed skins. :( - Alex Scoble
I'm not doubting the measurements, just saying with the underlying organizational principle, there's wasted space there. I'm positing that maybe that extra storage space is used somehow (error correcting codes, marking off bad blocks or pages to increase silicon yield, or something) but you can't really get non-power of two memory chips. - mikepk
[pointing finger on nose] :-) - Kevin Fox
Yup, I can't explain the discrepancy there either Mike, although I think that you may be right, I just know that it exists. - Alex Scoble
Of course I haven't designed a logic board in almost 8 years (holy SH@)# really?!). Anyone doing recent HW design and can comment? - mikepk
Although it is possible that they design these chips to be 32,000,000,000 bytes in base ten which is still divisible by 8 after all. - Alex Scoble
[comment retconned] - Kevin Fox
maybe the wasted space is there to add extra read/write cycles, since NAND chips die after a certain number? Oh, the comments on this article about the same subject of storage labelling conventions is quite interesting http://www.codinghorror.com/blog... - alphaxion
Kevin, I fixed my statement before your comment. :p - Alex Scoble
@kevin I think he's referring to dividing 32,000,000,000 by 2 yields 16,000,000,000.. then 8,000,000... 4,000,000... 2,000,000... tho it starts to get messy after that ;) - alphaxion
And yes 32,000,000,000 is a base 2 number :) Although in base 2 it looks like this: 11101110011010110010100000000000000 - Alex Scoble
Fun thread, would read again! - Daniel J. Pritchett
*lobs hand grenade into thread hoping for total destruction* Seriously: this is worse than the political and economic discussions on FF. Worse than Mac v Win v Linux. Worse than iPhone v The World. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
You are right in one sense, Tina, because it's completely nonsensical that this discrepancy even exists. - Alex Scoble
Not really: one is base 10, one is base 2. You should both just count your lucky stars that they didn't do memory, storage, etc in base 16 and move on. Post something funny for me. anything. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I would be perfectly fine with just one standard used uniformly instead of base 10 number being used in one place and a base 8 number being used in the other - Alex Scoble from IM
Alex is wrong... RAM does not necessarily lose its data when power is disconnected. It's a function of temperature and other factors. Ask any digital forensics expert. - LogEx
Yeah, it just isn't reliable for the OS to use once the computer is shut off. - Alex Scoble from IM
hence why, for all intents and purposes, the data can be called lost when a power interruption event occurs. Just as when you hit delete on data located on your magnetic HDD, it can still be retrieved with enough effort and minimal read/write operations since the deletion. - alphaxion
I once worked with someone who was convinced we should use FTP instead of HTTP because the data in question was a file, not hypertext. I was unable to convince him to look beyond the terminology and make the decision based on the actual differences between the two protocols. Storage is whatever anyone stores something on, for however long they do it. Various media have a panoply features that drive decisions about specific uses, but the one thing they have in common is that we store data on them. - Seth
RAM doesn't necessarily means that data disappears when the power goes off. There is such a thing as nvSRAM (non-volatile static RAM) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... and the ferrite-core memories on the old space shuttles retained things even when the power goes off too (This is how they were able to recover some of the system state when the Challenger exploded) RAM just means random-access memory. - Victor Ganata
Are you a doctor or an IT worker? Pick one please. :) - Alex Scoble
Hey, I support a bunch of RNs who became clinical systems troubleshooters and trainers. The only health care professionals who can be pigeonholed these days are the ones who let you do it. :p - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Yeah, I was just joking with Victor. He knows his computer stuff. - Alex Scoble
What I want to know though are you 100% sure? - Brian Sullivan
No, because that would make me an idiot. :) - Alex Scoble
RAM as used today usually refers to dRAM. It's a semantic argument. - Cristo
Don't worry, though; there are still a whole bunch of clinicians who can't open their email (and I gathered you were joking, Alex, but I saw my opening). - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Whereas Chris would be a horrible doctor. :) - Alex Scoble
And Alex would make a horrible comedian. - Cristo
Guess what my backup career choice was :) - Victor Ganata
Hehe - Alex Scoble from IM
Irony is Chris saying that anyone will make a horrible comedian. :) You kill me, Chris. :) - Alex Scoble
But I think I know where you're coming from, Alex. It used to drive me absolutely nuts when people would refer to storage as "memory" until I started thinking about the human brain as a computing paradigm, and realized that both the long-term storage facilities and the short-term/working memory are in fact commonly called memory and are comprised of the exact same type of media. Of course, even the storage portion is volatile. Turn off the power for 8+ minutes, and all that data starts to decay pretty quick - Victor Ganata
Yeah, but you wouldn't like the sounds I make as I'm rebooting - Alex Scoble from IM
As long as you keep your hands off your wiiremote, it'll probably be okay. - Cristo
Yeah, I only workout once a day...usually in the mornings. - Alex Scoble from IM
ahah nice xkcd alphaxion - TiTi