Warranted? No, said the black guy who lives as best he can with the LAPD, but they will. - Derrick

Or do you think that there are other ways to determine a high risk flyer? - Scoble, Alex Scoble

And do you think it's OK, Itachi? - Scoble, Alex Scoble

A person's religious affiliation or ideology isn't necessarily known to the TSA or airlines. - Bird-botts

Great question. It's a tough balance between a tough watch list or following a suspected terrorist that could lead to other terrorists. Hmmmmm. Gotta think on this one. - Nate Pilling

Do you mean Muslim as indicated on some sort of nationally issued Religion Registration Card... or simply that somebody "looks Muslim [sic]"? - Ken Sheppardson

Good points, John and Ken...Yep, the only way to really profile someone as Muslim is to look at names and physical appearance and as you both noted, such attempts will be inaccurate and result in plenty of false positives and false negatives. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Like I bet that most TSA agents would mistakenly recognize a Sikh as a Muslim. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I suggest they just as well target radicalized, evil people who pretend to be Muslims, since that's the folks doing the terrorism. - iTad

Apparently El Al has a way of telling because they haven't had a successful attack against them since 1968. - Scoble, Alex Scoble from IM

El Al screens everyone. Boarding is at least an hour before departure, in some cases an hour and a half. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Qantas hasn't had a problem since 1919, have they? Maybe we should do what they do. - Ken Sheppardson

No because it would be a vicious circle. Treating a person as second class due to religious affiliation would likely lead to more terrorism. - Rob H.

Awesome article, Itachi. And thanks for that info, Rene. It would be very interesting to get info on exactly what security measures El Al takes to protect their planes. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Profiling doesn't necessarily mean you treat them as a second class citizen...the problem is one of scale...you want to search and prevent only the bad guys of doing bad things while letting "innocents" board a plane with a minimum of hassle. To do otherwise, to treat everyone as a threat is a huge waste of resources, which is where we are at right now. So the question is, what is the best way to screen passengers? - Scoble, Alex Scoble

As far as you guys know. I'm muslim because of my name. Do I feel like being harassed at the airport? Absolutely not. Profiling doesn't work, which is obvious since harassing black people hasn't really changed anything except to give them an extreme distrust of law enforcement. - Rah-PM 2012

"Profiling doesn't necessarily mean you treat them as a second class citizen." Tell that to the innocent person being profiled. - Rob H.

As mentioned upthread, you also want to prevent people from turning into 'bad guys' in the first place. - Andrew C (✓) from Android

OK, first off security services profile people every day so you have to stop thinking of profiling in the purely negative sense. Profiling does NOT automatically mean you look at someone and judge based on the color of their skin. Good and proper profiling (which El Al does) looks at a person's behaviors, and a bunch of other criteria to determine risk. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Yep, Itachi, another good point. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Skinheads are notorious for being anti-gay racists and have committed a lot of acts of violence against gays and people of color. To cut down on the number of hate crimes, should we treat all bald people as if they were potentially violent anti-gay racists? - April

Profiling is a valid science. I saw it on Criminal Minds, but some random TSA agent just doesn't have the skills to profile someone on site and on-the-fly, unless we're talking about that cute chick from Lie To Me...she got skills. - Rah-PM 2012

I'm fine with behavioral profiling; I'm referring to your initial question which is not the same type of profiling. - Rob H.

ROFL, Rah. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I'm only 10% joking, though. Profiling needs to happen before a person hits the airport because, once inside, I doubt there is any individual there with the education and observation skills to spot problems. - Rah-PM 2012

Alex, try to understand it this way: assume that no matter what the specifics of your profiling proposal are, that *you personally* will be a candidate for enhanced scrutiny and hassle. Thank you for your sacrifice in time and dignity on behalf of the rest of us! - Andrew C (✓) from Android

And in the case of LA police, profiling black people is not correct since a high amount of crime is perpetrated in that area by other races. One could argue that in this case, profiling of Muslims is proper because they are the only group of people that have attempted airborne terrorism in a long time. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Andrew brings up a valid point. Are you willing to make the sacrifice and suffer time and dignity for your countries safety? Maybe just because your name is Scoble? - Rah-PM 2012

I'm not a terrorist, so security that hassles me is a waste of time. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I think that's the key, Alex: If we only screened the terrorists, think how detailed the screening could be. - Ken Sheppardson

Let's pretend that people with your name tend to be terrorists. - Rah-PM 2012

didn't the FARC hijack a plane? Profiling doesn't work, machine guns & the threat of injury does more. up to date equipment would help more, stop being cheap & diplomatic, make a decision & fund new equipment; there's new security equipment in podunk china airports than in most major US cities. - clarke thomas

Thanks, Clarke...and they might have...And Joe, the Unibomber did not attempt airborne terrorism. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I am also not a terrorist, but every time I board a plane to the US and also when I enter(ed) the US I get hassled. I'm sure it's a combination of my goatee, my expression and my attitude. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

The answer to your Muslim profiling question is the same as my skinhead question. - April

Of course we should fight the last war. Also, Ken++. - Andrew C (✓) from Android

I'm not arguing one way or another here...I'm actually trying to figure out a good rebuttal to the question I posed. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

White male Christians are more likely to blow up buildings and engage in school and abortion clinic shootings and bombings. - Rob H.

I feel safer in communist & war torn countries, than I ever did in any US airport - clarke thomas

Maybe we could just pay more attention to people who pay cash for one way tickets and don't check baggage. - Ken Sheppardson

ah, what's the last war? - clarke thomas

How many Muslim friends do you have, Alex? - April

I think the IRA might have hijacked a plane as well? - clarke thomas

The answer to your question actually is yes. But that's not the full answer, because in order to prevent another airborne attack everyone must be profiled. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Asking me how many Muslim friends I have isn't going to help the discussion. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

The answer is "No" because there is no truly good way to figure out who is actually Muslim. What will happen is that a bunch of minority groups will get harassed based on "un-american" names, skin color, and clothes. Even muslim people think I'm muslim and that's with a completely shaved face, so I'll be screwed if I try to fly anywhere. - Rah-PM 2012

Well if you have any, how many of them are terrorists? And how many of them do you think should be treated as if they were potential terrorists, just so you can have a false sense of greater safety? - April

other decisions can also be made; are you willing to sacrifice yourself/others to save many? Would you let a attendant get their throat slit to save the plane? - clarke thomas

there's no physical characteristics to describe someone who follows a religion. Nut jobs are unrelated to religion...they just happen to read too deeply into a section - clarke thomas

Alex, didn't your brother Robert marry a Muslim woman? She could be a terrorist, and because Robert married her, he could be one too. And since you are related to Robert, you should be subjected to a rectal exam by a TSA agent before every flight...just in case. I am sure you won't mind. It's all to keep this country safe from terrorists, right? - April

Thanks, Joe for that info. And April, I think you have the wrong idea on why I started this thread, heh. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

No. - Steven Perez

Actually, me and my fiance saw a couple of Jewish guys...at least...I think they were Jewish. They had long beards and those brimless caps. Although, they could have actually been muslim, I mean..who knows these days...they were kinda tan...I wonder what they were up to in that store. Maybe those Walmart uniforms were a front...What were we talking about again? - Rah-PM 2012

Here's another example of a non-muslim hostage taking event on an airplane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Scoble, Alex Scoble

And another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Thanks all for the discussion. If anyone has any other good examples of non-muslim airborne terrorism in the last 10 years, please let me know. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Sorry for eating dinner midthread. @clarke, my crack earlier about "the last war" was a reference to Maginot Line types of thinking. That is, "if a certain tactic beat us last time, we'll defend against it perfectly this time", failing to recognize that an enemy could switch tactics. - Andrew C (✓)

In terms of security, I think comprehensive screening is best, followed by randomized screenings, followed by profiled screenings, because the latter is inherently defeated by bad guys consciously trying to avoid fitting the profile. In terms of hassle - and even counting successful terrorism as a hassle - I think randomized screening is less overall hassle than comprehensive. - Andrew C (✓)

Given that TSA so far has been reactive that is "after" an attack they screen for it, the likelihood that current screening will catch next attack is nil. I'm guessing next generation of attackers are euro islamists angered by US drone strikes so no profile also given ASTAN drug money contacts the next attack could be a merc for profit deal by a euro drug cartel that might mean Russian or chechnyan or maybe a Basque ETA type - short answer is TSA is going to spend time money and aggravation chasing down a style of attack that AQ probably already views as failure - WarLord

I have been affected by terrorism. Correction: I have been affected by the response to terrorism. Thanks to that response, I can not sufficiently prove who I am. I do not own enough "points of ID" to obtain a state issued drivers license or non-drivers ID. Without this ID, I can not obtain employment in a regular job in my state. NJ was the first state to get tough with requiring numerous documents to prove identity when applying for a drivers license or non-drivers ID. The reason why they got so tough is because it was proven that a number of terrorists involved with the whole 9/11 incident held NJ drivers licenses that were obtained with fraudulent documents...fake birth certificates. Before all the changes, I would have been able to renew my ID by just paying the fee. Now I need to have a total of 6 points of ID and proof of address. The only document they will accept that I own is my birth certificate which is only worth 4 points. If I had changed my name when I got married, they would accept my marriage certificate, but since I didn't, it's not an option. I don't have a major credit card, so I can't use that either. And the utility bills don't have my name on them. They are in my husband's name. The only other document I have they will accept is the statement from my checking account, worth 1 point, and if I use it, I won't have anything to prove my address. So, I get to live in poverty and at risk of being denied access to anything that requires a photo ID, including a job, just so some people in this country can have a false sense of security. I will say this again: The goal of terrorism is to cause fear and to make you change your way of life as a result of that fear. This country has done that. The terrorists have won. I'll try to remember to thank you all for making us so much safer when I am deciding which bills won't get paid this month. I'll try to remember to thank you all when I get sick and I can't afford a doctor. Your paranoia has changed my life... more... - April

(Sorry just seen April's comment on the thread) Really unfortunate April, there should be ways in changing one of the bills' owner I suppose and you get the last of those points? Does that negates something else your husband has? Maybe you can do so temporarily or that's another game into approvals? - Zu from AOD

++ April, for all of your comments on this thread. We have truly lost the "war" on terror when our over-reactions only encourage more fear and take away fundamental liberties. After the rules permit flying only naked and anesthetized and air travel is declared "safe", the targets will simply shift. Robbers don't rob houses with alarms, they move down the street to the one without an alarm. If we're not fighting for our freedoms, then WTF are we fighting for? These battles are won with intelligence, not by TSA clerks sitting at the ass end of the process. - Tinfoil 2.0

Assuming that all serial killers of the last 20 years had three names, do you think that it would be warranted for the FBI to pre-emptively arrest everyone with three names? So what if there are many more people with three names that are at zero risk for serial killing... we just want to be sure. - Tinfoil 2.0

Bingo. It is just plain stupid if you play by those rules, as "terrorists" are way brighter than that to discern those changes, especially if they got internet access so they would obviously switch for Christian patsies/allies. And then total meltdown when something occurs, and Timothy McVeigh, was security way higher in government buildings in general, was requirements for those jobs up in spike? Was that reduced over time, after the "boiling period"? It's unfortunate to have seen so many of your US-based media outlets do independent documentaries with those homeless veterans, both from Iraq and Vietnam, and the story continues with those groups still redefined. Maybe the entire system must have those "groups" to buffer and that is always a pain when one of those calls. And helping continually being impossible, the realization of things may be key to understand the nature of said procedures and be mechanically be represented with those facts/experiences acquired and understood, and liberated to others to process as we do. It's impressive I'm not an active blogger, so little space, but an interesting contribution to an interesting dilemma... Support! 'jo> - Zu from AOD

+27 points to J. Abdul-Qahhar. - Jason Toney

all kind of profiling must be done in personal level, not a general categorization. Behavioral profiling is based on your own actions but the problem is the lack of data. And for some muslim countries, names and family names are so confusing and full with duplicates. For your question: the basic answer is no, but it doesn't hurt to pay more attention to that spesific person if he fits the visual profile of a terrorist. Basic behavioral targeting was alwasy there and will be. USA government used to track book borrowing records of libraries to understand if someone is interested on materials related to building a bomb. - denizoktar

If terrorists were running around with forged documents and soliciting old white ladies to bomb planes....wouldn't that make them easier to catch? - Brian Newman from iPhone

Forged documents always draw suspicion? This must be why underage drinking is completely impossible. - Andrew C (✓)

Agree with Rahsheen on being profiled by the cute girl from Lie To Me. Disagree with April on the rectal exam. - Mark Davidson from BuddyFeed

Whats kinda funny when I crossed the border from Canada into Minnesota usually a wave on by but I was stopped and car was torn apart - only after did a friend in the umm"biz" told me that profiling had forced drug smugglers to hire retired folks in mini vans to carry the dope across so now they had "new profile" old obviously vacationing white guy ... but of course that was not doing so well for customs since many of those actually were etc etc Thus the profile forces changes in behavior just like any stimulus and where profit is involved or delivering a terror bomb you can expect the profile to become inaccurate as behaviors change - WarLord

If underage drinkers were blowing themselves up in bars I bet they would be a little more strict at the door. - Brian Newman from iPhone

It is a lot easier to convince someone to bring some pot across the border for a couple bucks than it is to convince them to carry a bomb on a plane and blow up themselves and 200 innocent people. - Brian Newman from iPhone

That's why a bad guy would tell them they were smuggling cell phones or something. - Andrew C (✓)

BTW, speaking of awesome security, my horrible United adventure included _my checked luggage taking off without me_. - Andrew C (✓)

Don't mind this powdered substance I am putting in your underwear, it is a cell phone. And make sure to spray it with this syringe before you land. - Brian Newman from iPhone