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edythe to edythe's feed, Foods

Recipe for Sexy Time: Taiwanese Sweet Butter Brick Toast 奶酥吐司 | sinosoul.com - http://sinosoul.com/?p=3594

September 2 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Cheryl Jones, R1CC1, Onur Gündüz and 32 other people liked this

"Recipe for “Butter Milk” in Chinese courtesy of Flower Grass Garden. Ingredients: 1/2 cup of non-fat powered milk 1/3 cup of granulated sugar, dial down for less sugary result. 1/3 cup of salted butter 1/2 egg yolk 2 slices of 1″-thick brick toast. Margarine is actually a better substitute than butter as it melts much quicker into the bread, but a true carb whore will always drop her panties faster upon the smell of real butter. Here comes the tough part: don’t use regular bread and don’t even think about doubling up Wonder Bread. I use dense toast found at Asian bakeries, may it be Japanese/Chinese or otherwise. The last time around, the source of brick toast was Domie’s Bakery in Rosemead. The cashier girl, knowing the ultimate purpose for said loaf, smiled wide & deftly sliced the 6″ loaf of bread into fours, resulting in slices that are 1.5″ thick. This is good. Girls like it thick, so they tell me." - edythe from Bookmarklet

21 more comments

lord! that looks so nom! - vijay

doesn't it, though?! - edythe

Yeah, lots of breakfast places served us toast like this in Taiwan. Frequently they made it with different flavoured butters, like coconut or chocolate. - Louis Simoneau

omg, coconut or chocolate!! - edythe

I think i'd love it with peanut butter! :D - BeeLing

ahhhh the 626 - cysko

ha, cysko. :) - edythe

gonna try this one definitely - c'est mahéshieux

got some panties you need dropped, c'est mahéshieux? ;) - edythe

Want. I wonder if our Asian supermarket has that toast. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Bah. Yu Yu did not have the toast (9/12). :( - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

aww, sorry, mage. :| - edythe

yummy, but half a yolk makes my brain hurt, though... - Michael W. May

a wicked hhaahaahaaah to @edythe - cysko

VICTORY IS IMMINENT! I never could find the Japanese bakery in town, but I'd totally forgotten about a little market I used to live near named Hibari. Fortunately, Asian people know where to get Asian foods; imagine that! http://friendfeed.com/minimag... - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

I like the somewhat similar but easier-to-make sweetened condensed milk toast - you just spread a whole bunch of sweetened condensed milk on toast and pop it in the toaster oven. - Andrew C

I like the subtitles on this post. I kinda doubt sweet butter brick toast will get you an Asian girl in Vancouver; I mean, I think you have a decent chance of just finding this at your local bubble tea/snacks joint. But haha to "smarter than Chowhounders." =) - Andrew C

If I thought this would make an Asian girl--or any other girl, for that matter--sleep with me, I would not make the toast! - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

hee, minimage. :) - edythe

I suck! Last night, I bought milk in case mine had gone sour (it had) and butter, in case I was out. Got home after a birthday party and discovered all my eggs were bad. Bought eggs today, then got home and realized the recipe said POWDERED milk, which I've never had in my life. This may be worse than the misadventures I had after reading Mona's moaning about steamed mussels and fries. FML? - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

aw, minimage. are you sure your eggs are bad? i think they're actually good from 3-5 weeks after the sell by date. - edythe

The eggs were definitely bad. I still haven't found powdered milk. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Josh Haley

Seriously, do not watch this clip. NOT OK FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. Ok, now watch it. ***Biggest Zit Ever*** - http://www.youtube.com/watch... (via http://friendfeed.com/farukah...)

Seriously, do not watch this clip. NOT OK FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. Ok, now watch it. ***Biggest Zit Ever*** - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE3mZSV1nrg&feature=youtube_gdata (via http://ff.im/9jk6u)

October 6 - Comment - Like - Share

frogsong, Jason, Incognito, Kol Tregaskes and 12 other people liked this

This video is hilarious. I love everyone shrieking and gagging. Morons. How do you let a zit get THAT BAD? No, it's ok. Don't seek medical attention or anything... - tinypants - Hagitha of FF

47 more comments

Dude those are monster zits - Rodfather

Like, a cup worth of pus stored in your neck has to be sore. - Josh Haley from iPhone

It's enough to spread on a couple slices of bread - Rodfather

Oh snap! 1UP Rodfather - Josh Haley from iPhone

Mmm, cheesy. - Danny Minick

That is well beyond zit and far into abcess... - Shannon Jiménez

You should sell this as a foolproof diet plan. - Jim Norris

Where do you *find* these things, Josh? - Spidra Webster

I had 2 persistent acne cysts removed by a dermatologist, but that video... I can't believe how much kept coming... - Spidra Webster

that video was something special. *HERF* - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

Wow, over 1.3 MM views on Youtube now. - Jimminy Fuller

I was sad to see it end. - Kurt Starnes

admit it, you were salivating. - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

DS, I nearly threw up when I watched a few weeks ago. - Jimminy Fuller

That's gnarly. Josh's comments on the original post are hysterical. - Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)

I am not usually squeamish, but each time she squeezed that THING and the puss came out like toothpaste I felt like I was going to hurl chunks. Good to see that sanitary conditions were adhered to also. - Travis Koger

i feel my lunch coming up - Carolyn Chan

"OMG, there's a hunk hangin' out!" - Christopher Harley

I love pus videos. And botfly ones. - Mellissa

That's not a zit, that's a MRSA infection, and what she's doing there is incredibly dangerous. MRSA is ridiculously infectious, hospitals use full isolation protocols to deal with it. - Otto

There are no words.... - sean808080

I'm still stuck on Amanda's original question: How do you let this go for so long? My sister got a nasty zit on her back and after a few days she couldn't stand it any more and asked me to take care of it. It was icky but light years not as bad as this. Some people are so weird. - pea

<gag..> Josh, you're bad, bad man. - Andrew Terry

seriously, i almost threw up. wow. - Blackeyed P

wow - Alfredo

You know, not every bump on the human body that is filled with pus is a "zit". They probably just exposed everyone in that room to MRSA..... - Matthew DeVries

That dude's probably a MRSA carrier. He should see a doctor. He'll probably get one of those anti-biotic cocktails. - ha3rvey (wants confit)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

maggots only eat dead tissue. leaches would be better bioremediation of this. - Matthew DeVries

Of course, they cite studies that show the maggots cure MRSA.... They must eat infected cells, the bugs have no where to live and die. - Matthew DeVries

"In a 2007 preliminary trial, maggots were used successfully to treat patients whose wounds were infected with MRSA, a bacterium (Staphylococcus aureus) with resistance to most antibiotics, including methicillin. Some of these strains include "flesh eating bacteria" causing frequent deaths upon infection of deep tissue. Maggots clean up the already dead tissue thus preventing further infection spread." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news... - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

What makes you guys think this is MRSA? - Spidra Webster

PARANOIA! - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

You've got a good point, Spidra. We don't know for sure that it's MRSA, but if I were a gambling man, I'd bet it's staph. - ha3rvey (wants confit)

i'd agree on the staph point. - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

Because it's clearly not a zit, and not a bite. What are you left with that will do that? - Matthew DeVries

Do not look up horse abscess. that's a certified lunch loser - Baroness Von BusinessTime

Baroness, I've seen the one you're referring to. It's a pretty good lunch preventer, too. - ha3rvey (wants confit)

Ok I'm having tea with biscuits at the moment, so this is definitely heading for hide oblivion!!! - Adrian Scicluna

Heh, I assume you're talking about the horse chest abscess one with the vet explaining how to perform the drainage of it? :) That was wicked gross, but it at least made me realize I had a far stronger stomach than I ever knew. - tinypants - Hagitha of FF

it's called a boil, and they cause no pain, heal quickly, though that one needs a doc - brian Beck

I had a cyst removed from the back of my neck, when I was in college. (about the size of a quarter) After it was removed it was slightly painful moving my neck for about a week. Always wondered what was in there..... - Mike Nencetti

Not like. - Kol Tregaskes

I finally watched that. Definitely far beyond a zit. The sound effects and commentary were too funny, though! - LB - all new for '10!

Oh dear god. Is that cottage cheese? - Jason, Incognito

Watched that horse one earlier. I'm a pretty tough guy, but that one was quite affecting and nasty. - Josh Haley

Yes, Jason! *tosses a pineapple ring on dude's back* - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

Ubi pus, ibi evacua - Matthew DeVries

Jimminy Fuller

TOTALLY RANDOM DOGGY STYLE MEME

October 3 - Comment - Like - Share

Jamelle, nakachi, AJ Batac and 11 other people liked this

OH HELL NO :) - Jeunelle Foster

18 more comments

Well, Look someone is enjoying :) - Sunny (The Geek Lord)

paris hilton's dogs :D - mariamaqdalena

As long as they're having fun, who am I to judge. - Adrian

Either that's not doggy style or millions have been doing it wrong - Josh Haley

How are they supposed to both watch the hockey game? *confuzzled* - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)

Josh, it's random doggy style, and you trust humans to tell you how dogs do it? - Jimminy Fuller

milk bone - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

DS wins! - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)

++1 Jimminy - Sunny (The Geek Lord)

Love is all around us. - Sunny (The Geek Lord)

on the sheets and on the ceiling. - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

Dead Eekkk - Sunny (The Geek Lord)

personal best - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

+++ DS. - Jimminy Fuller

REDACTED FOR TMI - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

eh? - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

Neva mind :) ... - Sunny (The Geek Lord)

Wonder, wots that names of these doggies .:) - Sunny (The Geek Lord)

Puppy porn...lmao - Jeunelle Foster

Derrick to Derrick's feed, Foods

Seriously Meatless: Polenta Triangles Stuffed With Spicy Greens and Cheese - http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes...

September 30 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Jamelle, Shevonne, mlazopoulou and 3 other people liked this

"I typically serve polenta one of two ways—fresh from the pot or cooled, sliced, and grilled. But for today's dish, I pre-stuffed it with a mixture of spicy greens and Caciocavallo cheese so the oven and broiler could do the work of the grill. The beauty of this recipe is it can all be made ahead, and you can work on the greens while the polenta is simmering. Italians rarely serve greens lightly sauteed. They tend to like them fully hammered. Here we cook them down with garlic, chili flakes, and red wine. The chard stems are sliced thin and thrown into the saute." - Derrick from Bookmarklet

LOVE polenta, and for some reason, find myself consuming much less meat than usual of late. - Derrick

I am not intending to become vegetarian, but I do fully realize that a great meal doesn't have to contain meat. I'd really like to try this.... - Ian May

iPhone: Patrick Jordan

Tweetie 2 Pricing Controversy: An Interview with Tweetie’s Creator | Just Another iPhone Blog - http://justanotheriphoneblog.com/wordpre...

September 30 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

vijay, Baard @ Pixum, Jamelle and Ouriel Ohayon liked this

Myrna to Myrna's feed, Classy Chocolate, cacao, Foods, friendf00d

A Feast for the Eyes: So good, that I could just cry-- Pioneer Woman's Best Chocolate Sheetcake - http://foodiewife-kitchen.blogspot.com/2009...

August 30 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

magali, Yasemin Ateş, yasintamer and 42 other people liked this

Now I know what I *need* to add to my breakfast to make it complete!-) - George Frink

8 more comments

George, LOL - Myrna

4 sticks of butter?!? - Spidra Webster

"the devil on a plate" LOL - ha3rvey (wants confit)

LOL and I'm off to have a healthy meal. - Myrna

Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - ecem trkcglu

Beğenilmez mi. Ben de yemek sapığı gibi bugün tüm yemek görüntülerine düştüm. Bulunca da yesem sanki! - Apostrofes

一見ハンバーグかと思った (-_-; - jz0f

yummy :p - آریـوبرزن

I'm sharing this with Yatot - go get your plastic cup. And to @elmot who must be famished running after Mr. G. Rest your tired feet, bro. This is heaven. :) - jan geronimo

US Politics: tehKenny, Dork

GlennBeckRapedAndMurderedAYoungGirlIn1990.com - http://glennbeckrapedandmurder...

September 2 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

James, Jamelle, Rob Haas and 5 other people liked this

"This site exists to probe the vicious rumour that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990. We don't claim to know the truth -- only that there's a rumour floating around saying that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990. So we're going to do our part to try and help get to the bottom of this." - tehKenny, Dork from Bookmarklet

17 more comments

SATIRE ALERT! - tehKenny, Dork

ROFLMAO!!!!! - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

Has Beck made any comments or denials of the accusation that he raped and murdered a young girl in 1990? Just askin'? - Mark Dodson

If he doesn't provide any evidence of the contrary, we're gonna have to assume he's guilty, - Alejandro

LOL - Admiral Anika

Counting down to when Beck files a lawsuit :D - Rene Wirtz

Oh and the people are responding in a *major* way: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss... - what's amusing to me about this is the "outrage" by the "conservative" set who are questioning people's upbringing that are spreading this bit of satire - while simultaneously failing to see the irony that Beck isn't joking in his (self-parody style) "reality"... - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

LMAO! :-) - Mathew A. Koeneker

Part of me thinks this is fucked up, and part of me thinks this is absolutely hilarious. I'm going to go with the latter part, for now. - Jamelle

Oh, Jamelle, it's *entirely* fucked up - and most reasonable people recognize the satire for what it is. The only people who are getting really bunged up about it are the neocons - because one of their own is being subjected to their own tactics. ;-) - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

Um...satire or not, I do not like the idea about joking about rape and murder. Not funny at all!! - Katy S

@Katy: but it is the same as fringe ministers praying for Obama's death, fringe mouthpieces requesting, begging people to take guns to town hall meetings on health care. It's absurd and sometimes you need to mirror absurdity with absurdity to drive a point home. - Rene Wirtz

Rene - I guess I like to hold myself to a higher standard. Plus, our culture has a problem with not taking rape seriously. Rape jokes are too prevalent, and I just don't find it funny. Anyway, I'm sure I could think of other ways to create an absurdist satire than this. - Katy S

@Katy: then where do we draw the line at what is acceptable? Rape jokes are a no-no (BTW, I agree), but inciting people to pray for Obama's death is not? Like I said, absurdity can only be mirrored by something equally absurd or even more absurd. - Rene Wirtz

I'm just saying that I don't like it. I don't like the praying for Obama's (or anyone's) death either. I just wouldn't use this approach. Clearly, others do. I'm not trying to police anyone - I'm just stating that I find it distasteful. - Katy S

@Katy: fair enough. But not doing anything about one side spouting hate is not a good path either, because somehow we must curb their trend, seeing as people are actually starting to believe all this nonsense. It's pretty much a lose-lose situation, sadly. - Rene Wirtz

Rene - I didn't say anything about not doing anything about it. I just said that I wouldn't choose to make a joke about rape and murder. Big difference. And yes, the whole situation is bad. - Katy S

Apparently, I'm the Worst Person in the World - tehKenny, Dork

Admiral Anika to Admiral's feed, US Politics

Pam's House Blend:: Baby daddy Levi Johnston on Sarah Palin's knocked-up plan for Bristol; Freepers go ape - http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary...

September 2 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Anthony Citrano, Richard pancakhaus Walker, CW™ and 8 other people liked this

"The steam must be blasting out of Sarah Palin's ears right about now as Levi Johnston, the father of her grandchild, sat down with Vanity Fair and described what it was like to live with the Jerry Springer guests Palin family for two months after the election. Johnston, who was clearly exploited by the failed GOP Veep candidate, says that parading him around the stage in Minnesota as the soon to be married proud papa was not the diva of the right wing's Plan A to handle the pregnancy issue." - Admiral Anika from Bookmarklet

13 more comments

You have to visits Pam's site for the unhinged comments from Freepers. It's actually kind of funny because they're so predictable. - Admiral Anika

Yeeeeesh...some of those comments made my eyebrows shoot almost all the way to my hairline. - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

What's a Freeper? - Adrian

Freeper is a member of the Free Republic community. It's a "conservative" website where reality rarely visits. Got banned from there in '03 by stating a fact. Nice, huh? - Admiral Anika

Denise, those comments are rather tame compared to some of the stuff they've said about elected officials. The pure hatred, utter disregard to other humans and disgusting bigotry allowed on the sites makes you wonder why GOP politicians post there. - Admiral Anika

Good to know, thanks. And knowing is half the battle. - Adrian

Sorry couldn't resist. :) - Adrian

Yikes, I'm not surprised there are worse comments, given your explanation of Freeper - I suspected that I was visiting Planet Cheney when I was in there reading the comments. - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

Yes, Denise...after seriously defending Bush and calling for the firing squad of *anyone* who disagreed with him (and yes, I made it onto a hit list), these people all of a sudden in 2007 that Bush wasn't a "real" conservative or Republican. I'm still picking up brain chunks from that one. - Admiral Anika

Hoooboy. Dubya Gump most certainly was *and* is a "real" conservative. He puts the FUN in fundamental (or maybe it's just the MENTAL part). In and of himself, though, he doesn't "scare" me. Cheney was the brainpower behind that duet from hell. *shudders* I'm sorry for your experience...holy moly. - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

To me more telling about Caribou Barbie as mother was the passage about the kids getting own meals, olders getting youngers off to school with no supervision.. Thats family that critisizes the rest of us WTF - WarLord

Yeah, WarLord, I pondered that for a moment...for a split-second...but it's one of the very *few* things that I'm not critical of Caribou Barbie about. I think it's a cheap shot by Levi, actually. I do *NOT* like Palin's politics at all, but as a mother of a pre-college teenager, a middle schooler, and an infant - not to mention being a fulltime doctoral student myself, I certainly... more... - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

ProsePetals she's having it both ways again, she decries behavior as bad thne models that same behavior - nope same as the the posting th eporno - you want family values you cook the meal, women out being productive while the whole family pitches in is in my vision of "family Values" but its not Pahlins - WarLord

Oh, I detest her politics - which you just noted. I'm not referring to her politics - I'm referring to her being a working mother, strictly. I have deep-seated issues with any brand of morality-based legislation...and that isn't limited to Palin. However, her "future ex son-in-law" is perpetuating the 3-ring circus for his own personal gain (and it reeks of gold-digging, honestly). I... more... - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

Katy S to Katy's feed, Foods

No brag, just fact: these butter-pecan cookies are DA BOMB. | King Arthur Flour - Bakers’ Banter - http://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2009...

August 25 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Jamelle, Derrick, Laura Norvig and 8 other people liked this

I'm hungry!!! They look delicious! - Myrna

2 more comments

Oh drool!!!! - Katie is Frittering

I'm pretty sure that I'll need to try these out sometime soon. - Katy S

i made the pancake mix they had on their blog last time and it was amazingly good! who knew about ground oatmeal in pancakes? - Christina Pikas

Derrick to Derrick's feed, Foods

Roasted Butterflied Chicken with 40 Cloves of Garlic, Lemon, and Rosemary - http://www.pigpigscorner.com/2009...

August 19 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Nicholas Kreidberg, Iván Abrego, TVTechGrl and 12 other people liked this

"This is another super garlicky and tasty dish. I made the braised version awhile ago and I thought it's about time I try the roasted version. I prefer this version simply because of the super delicious roasted garlic especially the charred ones! The rosemary is a nice change from thyme, very fragrant and it's much easier to de-stem as compared to thyme." - Derrick from Bookmarklet

5 more comments

40 cloves of garlic. Amazing - Benjamin Golub

delicious! - Jamelle

WANT NAO!!! - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

...my mouth was watering as I read that text! - .LAG liked that

Wow. I made a similar version in my clay pot a while back, and after we were done, we scooped out the garlic and spread it on bread for a late night snack. Too good. - ha3rvey (wants confit)

I remember reading a recipe like this with the 40 cloves of garlic, 40 years ago. It sounds as good now as it did then. - Cindi Wafstet

Derrick to Derrick's feed, Foods

Flourless Chocolate Hazelnut Cake - http://citrusandcandy.com/2009...

August 19 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

chaz2b, Iván Abrego, Debra Denton and 14 other people liked this

"Anyhow, here in this boudoir, hot gooey chocolate, hazelnut meal and wicked brown sugar comes together for a dense, fudgy cake that isn't too dissimiliar to a brownie. Freshly baked for your pleasure, it's warm and comforting and ready for you to get your fork on (or hands - whatever your fetish). And because we're feeling hedonistic, don't forget a good lashing of chocolate ganache. No need to get pretty, just pour and watch it cascade lasciviously. Satisfaction is always guaranteed with chocolate." - Derrick from Bookmarklet

2 more comments

i was just thinking that i wanted to make a chocolate hazelnut cake, too. - Jamelle

Oh Derrick, why you doing this to me, yum... - YoYo_P

mmmm... now I have to got something to eat! Thnx - Nia

Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF

Broken Social Scene – Ibi Dreams of Pavement (A Better Day) - http://www.last.fm/music...

August 13 from Last.fm - Comment - Like - Share

Michael W. May and Jamelle liked this

Christopher Chung to Christopher's feed, US Politics

Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama's 'Deadly Doctor,' Strikes Back - TIME - http://www.time.com/time...

August 13 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Felicia Yue, Victor Ganata and Jamelle liked this

"Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the medical ethicist and oncologist who advises President Obama, does not own a television, and if you catch him in a typically energized moment, when his mind speeds even faster than his mouth, he is likely to blurt out something like, "I hate the Internet." So it took him several days in late July to discover he had been singled out by opponents of health-care reform as a "deadly doctor," who, according to an opinion column in the New York Post, wanted to limit medical care for "a grandmother with Parkinson's or a child with cerebral palsy."" - Christopher Chung from Bookmarklet

"In her Post article [the source of Michelle Bachmann's and Sarah Palin's "death panel" charges], McCaughey paints the worst possible image of Emanuel, quoting him, for instance, endorsing age discrimination for health-care distribution, without mentioning that he was only addressing extreme cases like organ donation, where there is an absolute scarcity of resources. She quotes him... more... - Christopher Chung

Sean McBride to Sean's feed, US Politics

Officer at eye of storm says he won’t apologize - The Boston Globe - http://www.boston.com/news...

July 23 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Dante Rose Pleiades, Ethan, Geer and 30 other people liked this

"When Sergeant James M. Crowley climbed the front steps of Henry Louis Gates Jr.’s house last week and unexpectedly placed himself in international headlines, it was not the first time he had a memorable encounter in the line of duty with a prominent black man. Nearly 16 years ago, as a Brandeis University police officer, Crowley desperately tried to save the life of Reggie Lewis after the Boston Celtics star collapsed while practicing in the school gym. “It bothers him terribly that he couldn’t save him,’’ Crowley’s 74-year-old mother, Verina Crowley, said yesterday, speaking of her son and the famous basketball player." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet

508 more comments

"But people who know Crowley were skeptical or outright dismissive of allegations of racism. A prominent defense lawyer, a neighbor of Crowley’s, his union, and fellow officers described him yesterday as a respected, and respectful, officer who performs his job well and has led his colleagues in diversity training." - Sean McBride

He may not be a racist, but he did a racist thing. Do you think someone can act out societal norms - like racism- without consciously thinking about it? I do. - anna sauce

+1 anna - Christopher Chung

Is he guilty of doing a racist thing? Yes. Is he guilty of being a racist? That's still to be determined. - anna sauce

I have a lot of sympathy for officers usually because in the height and drama of the moment, it's hard to think clearly, even if it's your job and you're trained for it. But this apologist approach, based on helping a former sports star, is tacky. If I was him or advising him, I'd say, mea culpa and work towards opening up this situation to the light more so it doesn't happen again. - anna sauce

What "racist thing" did he supposedly do? - Brian Sullivan

Are you really asking me that? Haha. - anna sauce

Yes I am -- the fact that Gates is black and Crowley is white do not automatically make any of Crowley's actions racist. From the reports it seems Gates was being an asshole and Crowley overreacted and arrested him. If Gates had been white he would most likely have been arrested. - Brian Sullivan

I'd be an asshole too if a cop came into my house and arrested me for no good reason. - Derrick

Just because he has compassion in easy situations when he is on his 'home turf'(officer) doesn't mean it translates into the challenges in life. The cop has a lesson to learn and he should have made a public apology. He was in someone else's home(the cop) and arresting Gates in this own home!!!!!! ALL EGO!! - Myrna

I take it you haven't read Gates' side of the story. - anna sauce

There are racial disparities in arrest rates to estimated crime rates, Brian. (To expand: taking estimated number of crimes committed by black and white men, black men are more likely to be arrested for the same crimes relative to their share of the crime rate.) - Andrew C

If a cop questioned me while I was trying to force my way into my own house, under the reasonable suspicion that I was in the middle of a break-in, I would *thank* the cop for trying to protect my property, after calmly explaining the situation to him and offering ID. Wouldn't most people? There had been a previous break-in attempt at Gates's house not long before this incident. - Sean McBride

And it's interesting that you don't believe HLG when he said he did that. - anna sauce

Sean, if you doubt racism in this counrtry, let me share with you a comparative scene. I broke into my apartment recently as a white woman, and I was helped by two strangers. So, hmmm. - anna sauce

very interesting anna - Myrna

Never had to show ID. - anna sauce

Anna, do you have a link to Gates' take? I haven't read it myself. - chrisofspades

And you're not being fair, or even level. You're over positing one side of the story. - anna sauce

Anna -- I know there is a great deal of racism in this society. That generality doesn't make Crowley a racist. - Sean McBride

Crowley's side would be more believable if the Cambridge police didn't have a history of this sort of thing. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Anna -- what if someone tried to break into your house and claimed to be you to passersby? You don't think cops are aware of that kind of scenario? They are paid to be suspicious, and the suspicion is sometimes justified. - Sean McBride

Sure here you go- http://friendfeed.com/banane... - anna sauce

Well, Sean, for one, my neighbors know me really well. So sadly HLG had that not going for him. Another, I'm glad they would intervene. If the person had identified themselves a smy sister/mom (has happened before) I hope they let them go and NOT ARREST THEM. - anna sauce

Though how his colleague didn't know HLG from Harvard is beyond me. He is a superstar there, and a superstar in academia. And she works there!! - anna sauce

Anna -- I agree: Crowley shouldn't have arrested Gates. And Gates should have handled the situation much more intelligently than he did. - Sean McBride

I just quickly scanned nearly 400 comments on the Gates/Crowley case in response to The Boston Globe article: http://www.boston.com/news... The sentiment is running overwhelmingly pro-Crowley. The Boston Globe is one of the most liberal newspapers in the nation (with many Harvard University readers):... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, you do know that Boston can be a pretty racist city, right? And that liberal != automatically non-racist? - Andrew C

Andrew C -- what evidence do you have that the Boston Globe is a racist newspaper? The Globe is regularly reviled from the right for being a far left pinko op. Do you disagree with the substance of any of its reporting about Crowley? An interesting comment on the article: "This seems less about race than about class. Gates is POd because a lowly cop didn't recognize and defer to the star Harvard professor. Cue audio: 'Do you know who I am???'" - Sean McBride

I don't have any evidence that the Globe is a racist paper, but then again, I didn't claim that. And you should know as well as anyone that the right wing calling anyone a pinko far leftist only means that position is somewhere left of far right. - Andrew C

And as to the substance of the article, I don't see how it's relevant at all that he helped treat Reggie Lewis. And I hate to break it to you, but OF COURSE he and his family and friends would say he's not racist. That would be true of nearly anyone, no matter how racist they were. (Excluding the fringe who think it truly is acceptable to say racist things in public.) - Andrew C

Have you read Gates' lawyer's statement? http://www.theroot.com/views... "The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his... more... - Andrew C

Andrew: so: according to Gates and Ogletree, Gates calmly cooperated with Crowley's requests. Gates and Crowley have two very different stories about what happened. I am going to wait to see what develops before assuming either story is true -- this has become an international incident, and quite a few reporters are going to be all over it. The comments at The Root don't look very promising for Gates' side: http://www.theroot.com/views... Maybe The Root is also a hangout for racists. - Sean McBride

Isn't that a little on the line of "he said, he said" especially now that lawyers are involved. Still don't see where racism is implied. - Brian Sullivan

The only hint of racism that I see is that Gates called Rowley a racist. If Gates was white and called Rowley a fascist pig -- would that have elicited the same response? - Brian Sullivan

Andrew: from The Root site you pointed to: "The Police report was not written by the arresting officer. It was written by Officer Figueroa, a Latino. The third Cambridge Office was African American. With the exception of Officer Crowley making initial contact with Gates, at the door, the entire incident was witnessed by many others. If the Police Report was inaccurate, over a dozen... more... - Sean McBride

I agree that right now it's just a matter of determining who's story is true. IF it is true that Crowley was presented the ID without any problem and yet Crowley proceeded to demean Gates by arresting him, then you MUST consider some sort of (perhaps subconscious) racism as a potential factor, because, consider: If (1) Gates were WHITE and (2) the story proceeded exactly as Gates'... more... - Christopher Chung

@Brian and other deniers - People won't know what it's like to be pregnant until they actually are. No amount of role playing can change that. Same goes for racism. Denial of racism EVERY SINGLE TIME it is pointed out is ridiculous! And quite telling of your own privilege and position in society. It's also quite delusional. - Kandeezie

Kandeezie - you are being patently unfair. Classing me and others that are reluctant to agree that this case is racially motivated without more evidence as those that deny racism every single time it is pointed is equally ridiculous. - Brian Sullivan

How can you prove that I am unfair? Where is the evidence? Where is your authority to speak to unfairness and its criteria? If I were accused of being a denier, I would calmly deal with the situation without calling others unfair. That's the right thing to do. Until I see more evidence that I am being unfair, then I will just have to assume that you're unjustifiably angry. - Kandeezie

Kandeezie -- as I recall you accused me of being delusional and if not directly in veiled way of being a racist. I think the burden of proof in this argument lies with you. - Brian Sullivan

Christopher -- if no one supports Gates' story, and if Latino and African-American cops support Crowley's story, case closed from the standpoint of public opinion, especially regarding the racism charge. One quote above all sticks out for me: "Do you know who I am?" Sounds more like arrogant classism in play here than racism. - Sean McBride

Sean - some of those Root comments predate the updating of the story. - Andrew C

"One quote above all sticks out for me: "Do you know who I am?"" - I must have missed where anyone said Gates said that... - Andrew C

Sorry, Brian. I don't see it. - Kandeezie

I think this view of racism, and this entire discussion, is kind of simplistic. We're not solving an equation, or a brain teaser. I think it's a mistake to try to reduce these kinds of questions into logical progressions of facts and pseudo-facts. For example, Latino and black cops support the police testimony. Yes, that definitely is, in some ways, in support of Crowley: The black guy... more... - Christopher Chung

Andrew: there's this thing called Google. :) google(gates crowley "do you know who i am" http://www.google.com/#q=gate...) - Sean McBride

1UP Christopher. - Derrick

Sean, the first 5 links there are all hyperbolic satire of what Gates might have said. _No one_ said Gates actually said such a line. Your BS detector needs a LOT of upgrading. - Andrew C

Christopher -- this is a very complicated story, with some comedic as well as tragic elements. Tom Wolfe should write a novel based on it. - Sean McBride

Tom Wolfe would be perfect. lol. fyis, more fun reading from a couple days back if anyone hadn't seen it yet. : http://www.theroot.com/views... - Christopher Chung

What is interesting is that as more facts come out about this case, the accusations of racism keep being expanded to include everyone who has questions about Gates's behavior (including left-leaning publications). Even the most progressive news sites and blogs out there are loaded up with comments that are critical of Gates, and which are taking sharp notice of the classism angle in... more... - Sean McBride

Again, "he said, he said".... From Gates' Roots interview: "The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured." and "... more... - Christopher Chung

If I were Gates's PR adviser, I would urge him to work out some mutual reconciliation with Crowley, one which doesn't require either side to grovel. It was a mutual misunderstanding. Both gentlemen are fine, upstanding human beings. It's the best way to go with this. I've already seen enough reportage and commentary on the controversy to understand that Gates's position is not nearly as strong as it should be. He's losing the commentary wars on the progressive blogs -- a really bad sign. - Sean McBride

Sean I think you're responding to the fear, among whites, of being called a racist. And this video blog highlights the issue (and is more eloquent) then I could ever be. It's not about bein ga racist, it's about doing racist things: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - anna sauce

Am I right, after reading the police report, that Mr. Gates assumed that the officer was a racist from very beginning, regardless of what the officer said or did later? Moreover, the whole story goes on and on only because Mr. Gates public activity benefits from this publicity. I think Sean is right, the decent thing to do would be to reconciliate publicly and do not let it end in court. I doubt it will happen though, for the reason mentioned above. - andrei_c

Just goes to show, even the left has problems dealing with issues of race. For some, this is really clear cut. I'm not saying it's necessarily the right conclusion, but it would be nice if people didn't off hand consider that conclusion crazy. The thing that is infuriating is this sense that we shouldn't at all question the cop's motives for arresting HLG, as if there were absolutely no way he could be influenced even subconsciously by the fact that HLG is black. - Victor Ganata

I see no reason why he should be conciliatory. He was arrested in his own house, after proving he lived there. - anna sauce

Ok, so what if he's not a racist. He definitely has ego/arrogance, interpersonal relations problems and should be required to go for some kind of group therapy. And at the very least, apologize. - Myrna

It was a mistake that he was called to the house. So admit it and leave. Say you're sorry for imposing. - Myrna

"Cop Who Arrested Gates Teaches Racial-Profiling Classes: Complicating the matter is the fact that Crowley, who has been accused of racial profiling by some (even though it was a neighbor calling 911 that pegged Gates for a burglar as he tried to get into his own home), has actually taught a class on the contentious law-enforcement issue for years. The class specifically explains how... more... - Sean McBride

It doesn't matter. You can be extremely sensitive to racial issues and still commit a racist act, or say something that's racist. - Victor Ganata

Crowley on the incident: “I will say that when I first encountered the professor, I really wasn’t sure what I was dealing with,” Sgt. James Crowley tells WEEI radio. “The reason I asked the professor to come outside was not as someone suggested because I knew I couldn’t arrest him in his house. I didn’t know who he was. I was by myself. I was the only one who was standing there. I had... more... - Sean McBride

Even after he showed him his ID? Forget about race here. Is it truly reasonable to be arrested for entering your own home after fully identifying yourself? Basically, Crowley is saying that he was going to arrest HLG no matter what, then. - Victor Ganata

Does everyone here know that Barack Obama is currently being labeled by many pro-Israel activists as an "anti-Semite" and even a "Jew hater" because his administration strongly opposes Israel's continued building of settlements? (Reportedly the Israel prime minister recently described Rahm Emaneul and David Axelrod as "self-hating Jews.") Are the charges true because they have been... more... - Sean McBride

Yay, police! Clearly, this all Gates's fault. Doesn't he know as a Black man in America you don't mess with the police? What's his Ph.D in? - Derrick

It's important to distinguish between doing/saying something that is racist, and actually being a racist. It's not a losing issue among people-of-color, but maybe we really don't matter after all. - Victor Ganata

Being arrested on your front porch _after_ proving you're the homeowner, not a burglar, and by a cop who refused to provide identification, is a losing issue? I'm going to stick with the losers, then. - Andrew C

http://www.samefacts.com/archive... - "The lesson most cops understand (apart from the importance of using the word "tumultuous," which features prominently in Crowley's report) is that a person cannot violate 272/53 by yelling in his own home." - Andrew C

1UP Andrew - Derrick

+1 Andrew - anna sauce

The journalists, and the officer, are denying "being racist" - but are they denying the racist acts? Nope. Why would someone- anyone- arrest someone in their own home? Because they are belligerent? If no violence was done, who cares? And if they are justified? This Boston Globe article is pretty irresponsible. It's addressing an allegation that wasn't even made. It's addressing a charge that was fabricated. It's almost what I hate about traditional, sensationalist media. - anna sauce

Is it possible the professor overreacted? ...and it was influenced by race. And then the cops re-overreacted? And it wasn't influenced by race. Is that possible? - Edward Zwart

I don't think HLG was the definite instigator in this case. You still have to ask why Ms Whalen found it necessary to call the cops on her neighbor. I mean, anything is possible, maybe everyone but HLG was completely color-blind, but it doesn't change the fact that it was still a mistake, and I was always taught that you apologize for your mistakes. - Victor Ganata

(liking this to come back to it.) - Ayşe E.

Good lord -- a friend just reminded me that I attended two parties at this very house several years ago -- a Christmas party and a summer barbecue. (I must have had a few at those occasions to forget that.) And as I recall there is some well-justified paranoia about crime in most parts of Cambridge, including the Ware Street area between Harvard St. and Broadway. And Victor: the... more... - Sean McBride

Edward Zwart: I think you nailed it: Gates overreacted because he is understandably sensitive about racial issues, and Crowley overreacted because that is often what cops do when you get too aggressively in their face. So picture a happy solution and photo: Gates and Crowley with their arms around one another's shoulders, big smiles, thumbs up, and the caption no harm, no foul. Just a big misunderstanding all around. Then let a next generation Tom Wolfe explore the darkly comic dimensions of this incident. - Sean McBride

It gets better: "For five of the past six years, Crowley also has volunteered alongside a black colleague in teaching 60 cadets per year about how to avoid targeting suspects merely because of their race, and how to respond to an array of scenarios they might encounter on the beat. Thomas Fleming, director of the Lowell Police Academy, said Crowley was asked by former Cambridge police... more... - Sean McBride

Just because he's being called out for a racist act doesn't mean he's being called a racist. People make mistakes. People are better off for admitting their mistakes. Even if you have good intentions, if you do the wrong thing, you should apologize. - Victor Ganata

More: the neighbor who reported what she thought was a possible break-in works at Harvard Magazine and is considered a reliable person. She was trying to do the right thing. http://www.mercurynews.com/nationw... - Sean McBride

Victor -- since Gates unfairly accused Crowley of being a racist, I think there is little chance that he is going to receive an apology unless he climbs down. And I strongly disagree that there was anything racist about Crowley's act -- I think he sincerely thought that Gates was out of control. This looked like a racist act at first glance, but the more details we acquire, the more obvious it becomes that it wasn't. - Sean McBride

Just because you're trying to do the right thing doesn't mean you can't be culpable when it goes wrong. - Victor Ganata

Sean, we just have an obviously different definition of racism. I'm not saying Crowley is a racist. I'm not saying his actions were done with malicious intent. But the fact of the matter is that what he did just further poisons the well, and given that Crowley is the one in the position of greater power, I think he also has the greater power to heal this rift. - Victor Ganata

Hey, Anna, Andrew, Victor and others, let me emphasize: if you think this was a racist incident, I respect that. I'm just expressing my point of view. This story is open to many interpretations. And I understand that African-Americans are going to be looking at this story from a different set of experiences than mine. - Sean McBride

Of course Crowley wouldn't have arrested a 58 year old white professor with a cane. Because he probably wouldn't have approached the situation in an entirely different manner. And even if it wasn't explicit racism, it was most likely implicit racism. We'll never be able to prove racism. But Gates should never have been arrested in the first place and there's been quite a few lawyers posting in agreement of this. Gates has the right to raise his voice to the police. - Graham English

You know what? When the President of the United States (in all practicality) calls you a douchenozzle on national television during a Presidential press conference... Perhaps a Clinton suicide (two to the back of the head) is your best option. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

MVB, you believe that Vince Foster conspiracy theory? - Andrew C

Andrew I hold the Vince Foster Theory and the Clintons Married for Love Theory with equal weght. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

1) Vince Foster shot himself in the mouth, so I have no idea what your "Clinton suicide (two to the back of the head)", and the Clintons married in 1975 -- is your confusion about their love (and are you using these mind-reading powers for good or evil?) because prominent Republican politicians who are currently married for love generally tend to be married to their third wife? - Andrew C

I promised the NSA I would only use my mind-reading powers for good, Andrew. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

I just took a quick glance at the flood of articles flowing through Google on this story this morning, and it looks to me that opinion is continuing to turn against Gates, including from the left progressive side of the political spectrum. Is anyone reading the situation differently? Also, I think Obama made a major political mistake by entering the fray without first collecting all the facts. This is looking more and more like a controversy about classism than about racism. - Sean McBride

Should Obama take his cue from Bezos? :) - Edward Zwart

Edward -- are you referring to his walk-back from the Amazon Orwellian incident? Actually, I just noticed that Obama is walking back from his "stupidly" remark, which only served to highlight the classism angle on the Gates/Crowley contretemps. - Sean McBride

First definition for contretemps popped up by Google: [an awkward clash; "he tried to smooth over his contretemps with the policeman"] :) - Sean McBride

Well, it was inevitable that Obama would retract. You can't call cops' behavior stupid as the pres. I more meant the manner in which he retracts. Off to see how he worded it... - Edward Zwart

(btw, yes, I meant the Amazon Orwell incident) Doesn't look like Obama took the opportunity to admit any wrongdoing. Too bad IMO. - Edward Zwart

Edward -- I agree: Obama's walk-back was as inept as his original comment. Usually he is smarter than this. - Sean McBride

Notes from a Phantom Negro: “Skip Gates:Please Sit Down” http://thisweekinblackness.com/2009... Less than laudatory remarks on Gates from a black Ivy Leaguer who knows the social dynamics in play in this incident from the inside. - Sean McBride

Oh, well, if someone black says it then - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I thought it was an insightful essay, from someone who knows this social terrain from the inside -- what did the author get wrong? The smart commentators on this episode all seem to be noticing the salience of classism angle. - Sean McBride

Smart, as defined by you. If you read Gates' comments, he specifically mentions "the incident made him realize how vulnerable poor people and minorities are "to capricious forces like a rogue policeman, and this man clearly was a rogue policeman." The essay you linked to doesn't reflect that. - Richard Lawler

Sean - The writer you just cited also states that racial profiling is a fact of life for black men. His argument is that supposedly Gates forgot this because of his stature. This essay does not excuse Crowley at all. - Katy S

From the essay: "Which brings me to Skip Gates. He isn’t outraged because he feels he was the victim of racial profiling by the police (that dubious honor goes to his foolish neighbor). He’s outraged because he was the victim of class profiling. He didn’t resent being identitified as Black; he resented being identified as that kind of Black, the kind of Black that can be hassled and... more... - Sean McBride

By the way, I strongly disagree with the remark that the neighbor was "foolish," or that her call was motivated in any way by racism. But I am sure she will have an opportunity to tell her side of the story. - Sean McBride

Sean, was that quote supposed to address my criticism of the article? - Richard Lawler

Katy -- there is not a shred of evidence to support the claim that Crowley or the neighbor were motivated by racism or racial profiling in this case. Watch how this story continues to unfold. - Sean McBride

Richard -- I didn't see you address the classism issue which was the core of the article. The author also remarked that Gates should have been smart enough to keep his cool. - Sean McBride

So if you can find a black person like the author of that article that says Gates should shut up, kept his mouth shut and acted like a good boy, it's ok then? Gates = wrong and Crowley = right? - Derrick

I'm sorry, I forgot that I typed a point by point rebuttal of the article, oh wait I didn't. I mentioned what the article conveniently ignored. - Richard Lawler

Derrick -- criticism of Gates is coming from all across the political/ethnic/racial spectrum, not just from a single black Ivy Leaguer -- Google it. - Sean McBride

I never said the neighbor was foolish. And I didn't call the cop a racist. I noted that there are reasons, historically and in the present, that explain why Gates would be upset. This police officer is supposedly an expert in profiling - he should have known this too. And, it was stupid to arrest Gates the way he did. When Obama said that, I saw it as a lawyer's position. The arrest charge certainly didn't stand. - Katy S

Sean, I'm well aware of how to operate a computer, thanks for that. My criticism is that black people aren't monolithic, we don't all some tow some consistent black protocol on even matters of race. To point out an article written by a black and move along the lines of, "Well this one black guy criticized Gates and the cop is therefore right," is dismissive of proves your point well enough, but your point only. - Derrick

Sean, do you really think this went down exactly as it should have? That, regardless of race, it was the right thing to arrest a man in his own house for being surly and demanding you give him your name and your badge number? I guess I'd been going on the assumption that we all agreed that this went down wrong, and that it's really a matter of who needs to take responsibility for it going wrong. - Victor Ganata

Victor, as I mentioned previously, I don't think the arrest should have gone down, and I believe that both parties were at fault. I also think that Gates has more to lose from this mess than Crowley. Most of us would cooperate with a police officer who was investigating a possible break-in at our residence, not verbally abuse him. (And, to repeat, Gates' home had recently been the target of a previous attempted break-in.) How much do you want to bet that Gates walks back from his initial position? - Sean McBride

Arguing who has more to lose is an odd tack to take. If you think he shouldn't have been arrested, why should he be willing to let it go? I'd suspect, as someone who has never been arrested, that it's a somewhat traumatic experience and that, by his own words, he wants to make it a learning experience. - Richard Lawler

Derrick -- in no way did I mean to imply that that single author spoke for blacks as a whole (nor do I agree with the article in all the particulars). But I found his point of view interesting to throw into the mix because of his first-hand knowledge of the social world in which this incident occurred. - Sean McBride

But his point of view doesn't address Gates' stated reason for his issues with the incident. Note: I actually agree with the article in large part, but it's not in any way relevant. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- bottom line -- I need to wait for all the charges and counter-charges to be sorted out before coming to any firm opinions about what really happened here. I took what I thought was a somewhat contrarian position on the story (in part, because I tend to be contrarian-minded by nature), but then discovered that the politically incorrect questions that occurred to me were being... more... - Sean McBride

Interesting that you define your questions as politically incorrect. I don't know where that comes into play, or even what that is, but you're still not addressing what I mentioned. As far as being "fully vindicated" the charges were dropped. I don't know how much more vindicated you can get. The point I brought up is Gates' own statement that if he weren't who he is and had the resources and connections he has, would there be any possibility of vindication forthcoming? I wonder if you think about that. - Richard Lawler

I'm noticing an interesting overlay. Those that are libertarian, no government, "govt out of my bedroom" oddly backing up the cops here in a case of being arrested in your house for breaking into your house. - anna sauce

anna =) - Andrew C

Richard - I agree with the article in that a Harvard man will tell you he went to Harvard in the first 5 minutes. But not in that you should "shut down and be quiet," that any way to manage the blatant lopsided behavior of the police to racial issues is to be subservient. I think Gates chose a great time to bring this matter to the fore. Despite being jet lagged, tired, old, and locked... more... - anna sauce

My concern is that this officer is, in one way or another, trying to push forward the thought that one cannot be upset or agitated in front of officer without risking arrest. If the person poses no threat to the officers or themselves, then what is he trying to police? Someone said it nicely on Facebook: "the officer could have put himself in Gate's shoes and they could have shared a... more... - Kandeezie

Before this whole thing happened, HLG was one of my intellectual heroes. He's a very, very smart man. I think this was well thought out (that he knew he could go quiet, or he could resist- in his way Lawfully resist.) - anna sauce

I guess what I'm trying to say- HLG is not a black professor, he is one of the best professors, one of the best intellectual minds. - anna sauce

Sean, that article talks about a black man's "healthy fear of the police" and the "black tax". These are statements of fact, but _this is not how the world should be_. I can't imagine how you think an article that says "life isn't fair and Skip Gates forgot that here" puts Gates in the wrong. - Andrew C

I'd quote that saying about how only unreasonable people change the world, but it's a bit early (on the west coast) for greeting card sentiments. - Andrew C

So on NPR yesterday they had an African-American first police superintendent of a town in Alabama, I believe, and he was telling the anchor that recruits today aren't given the same kind of background and fabric on race relations- like Jim Crowe- so that they can handle this "stew" of issues. I thought that was interesting. - anna sauce

@Andrew, I agree. It's almost as if ppl are saying "you know cops don't like you, you should have known better to be on your best behaviour, far better than whites need to be, because you're 'Black in America' (lol)" - blame the victim? I think so. - Kandeezie

From an interesting discussion on the Huffington Post about the Gates affair: "Even once a physical threat had been removed, there was apparently another level of threat that Gates apparently posed. In the midst of the confrontation, Gates apparently tried to call the Cambridge Chief of Police and threatening the officer: "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH". This was a direct... more... - Sean McBride

Continued: "Such stylized interactions are well-known to most ordinary citizens. If you get pulled over by a police officer for a traffic infraction and you react with some contrition and humility, you have a fair chance of escaping with an oral warning. Challenge the officer, and you get a ticket. With certainty. Regardless of your race." - Sean McBride

"Would we want our police officers to back down before a white corporate executive or elected official who threatened to call a Chief of Police? " ... An exec or elected official _who did nothing wrong_? Hell yes. - Andrew C

Sean, do you agree with all of the things you've quoted/linked, or are you just quoting them to spark more discussion? - chrisofspades from email

A threat to authority is not a threat to his life. Know the difference. - Kandeezie

Chrisofspades -- I very rarely agree with all or even most of the quotes and links I post -- they are starting points for analyzing and discussing an issue or situation. It's important to look closely at many points of view on controversial issues. - Sean McBride

Quick poll: has anyone here ever verbally abused a cop? (My own answer: no, for reasons of rational self-interest. If you have a disagreement with a cop, there are legal channels to pursue. Getting in the face of a cop is a no-win proposition.) - Sean McBride

Sean, okay thanks. just wanted to clarify where you were comin from. and its CHRISofspades, not CHRISTofspades! world of difference there hehe - chrisofspades from email

Yeah, what Kandeezie said. Insufficiently respecting the officer's authoritah is not a crime. - Andrew C

Chris -- I already caught the typo and fixed it. :) Quick question: have you ever verbally abused a cop? (I am curious if anyone here has done so, or would do so.) - Sean McBride

I have never verbally abused a cop. talked back to, sure, but never abused. but that's cuz I've done something wrong, and I usually want to get on their good graces so they let me go. - chrisofspades

Most people have enough common sense not to verbally abuse cops -- including most Harvard professors. - Sean McBride

Oh really now. And there's evidence of this where? The amount of times each racial group mouths off and gets arrested. I would like to know... - Kandeezie

By the way, as for your poll, I *have* told a police officer that he was lying, in a very aggressive way. Because he was lying when he said my car was registered at a different address than my own, insinuating that I stole the car. I handed him his ass on a plate. And nope, didn't visit jail that day either. Surprise surprise! - Kandeezie

You are a brave woman, Kandeezie. :) My inclination is to play the odds -- getting in the face of a cop is a bit like playing Russian Roulette. - Sean McBride

one incident is very different then a career. we judge Obama's actions on Israel based on his pattern of abuse. Obama's vilification of this guy is more of the same pattern of not having all the facts. Crowley might be wrong... but Obama was out of line. - Noah David Simon

No! Obama can say what he wants. He did not vilify the cop. It *is* stupid to arrest someone on a bogus charge after they have shown you that they live there. What - he couldn't establish that he was a burglar so he had to get him with something? Surprising at how much people want to protect rights, unless the person is non-white. - Kandeezie

And no, Sean. I am not brave. Cops are not god. I do not need to pray to them. End of story! - Kandeezie

Well, Obama and I seem to be on the same page: "At an impromptu appearance at the daily White House briefing, Obama said he spoke with Crowley over the phone, and said he wanted to share a beer with Crowley and Gates at the White House. "My sense is you've got two good people in a circumstance in which neither of them were able to resolve it the way the wanted to resolve it," Obama added." Smart move -- Obama may be able to fix the situation. (I love when I get my predictions right :) -- it's an ego thing.) - Sean McBride

The worst thing for me re: the cop is that he showed low common sense, and created more drama. They are supposed to diffuse situations. He's making me love my local cops, because I've seen them, coutnless times, diffuse situations and have a thick skin, be sensitive, and understand the cultural situation at play. This guy? A clown. - anna sauce

The Salon article was written by someone who apparently has a problem with Gates that goes well beyond this incident. From what I know of him (which is admittedly little, though we are in similar academic fields), he's arrogant and self-aggrandizing. That doesn't make arresting him in his own house, or on the porch thereof, right, particularly if he had identified himself as the homeowner. - Steve Lowe

Kandeezie -- I don't think that the police are God. What I think is that they are human beings who are under a great deal of stress, who are underpaid, who often carry guns, who possess professional skills in the application of force, including deadly force, and who are backed by the full crushing power and apparatus of the state. Most people are understandably reluctant to provoke a... more... - Sean McBride

Wow -- I just noticed that the article I linked to here by Phantom Negro -- "Skip Gates, please sit down" -- is currently the most popular article on Salon.com -- arguably the most influential *progressive* site on the Web. The fifth most popular article is "Obama should have stayed out of Gates case" by Joan Walsh. This is opinion from the *left*. Opinion on the right is, of course, much harsher. So this incident is a total lose-lose for Obama. - Sean McBride

You can see the opinion of web traffic? What fricking tools are you using? When did google trends add that feature? - Richard Lawler

Richard -- visit the Salon.com home page -- it lists Salon's most popular/read articles. I was astonished to see the Phanton Negro's article at the top of the list. - Sean McBride

Oddly, I don't remember questioning where it is on the list. Let me reread my previous comment. - Richard Lawler

Addendum: the Phantom Negro article ranks #1 for Salon.com's most active letters, and the Joan Walsh article "Obama should have stayed out of Gates case" ranks #2. Visit http://www.salon.com/ The controversy is continuing to rage, with both Obama and Gates suffering major hits. The tragedy here is that the nation is facing problems of much greater consequence. - Sean McBride

Repeating the same false argument doesn't make it valid and/or relevant. - Richard Lawler

Richard: politicans who don't pay attention to public opinion trends risk losing support for their political agenda. That is the larger context to keep in mind. I think we should be talking about more important issues that Gates. Obama still hasn't extricated himself from this mess, despite his generous offer to host peace talks at the White House. And Gates and Crowley are still... more... - Sean McBride

And this explains how you know what political trends are to the right and left based on the most popular page on a particular website. The context I keep in mind is that most people, like you, are linking to the article and not reading it, merely focusing on who it is written by and the slant you perceive in it. - Richard Lawler

Not true, Richard. I've read and fully digested at least a few hundred articles on this story now, and have a good sense of how opinion is trending on it. That is why I was able to predict with confidence that Obama would walk back from his initial statement on the story -- his staff are looking at the same data I'm looking at. And he may walk back even farther, unless this story disappears pronto -- he has more important issues on his plate. - Sean McBride

Richard: more progressive opinion on the story, this time from Talking Points Memo: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009... Notice the sharp annoyance creeping into Todd Gittlin's voice about the way the Gates story has been distracting attention from much more important issues, especially health care. - Sean McBride

Which again, explains how traffic to a particular article indicates political trends on the left or right. Walking back, forwards or otherwise, that statement makes less sense than the arrest that sparked this whole thing. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I am relying on hundreds of articles and comments, not a single article, to draw the conclusion that public opinion all across the political spectrum is turning against the hardline pro-Gates position on this controversy. Believe what you will. - Sean McBride

Which is interesting, because that's not what you said. Also, I don't know what a "hardline pro-Gates position" is. I do see the misguided belief that there's a pro- or anti-gates side of things here. That kind of simplification is what you get from trendsurfing mass media and comments to form an opinion, I prefer just dealing with the facts. - Richard Lawler

Trendsurfing-- - Andrew C from Android

Without knowing the actual methodology of collection, I'd definitely be wary of trusting auto-generated stats. As someone else has noted quite cleverly, the plural of anecdote is not data. I realize it signifies nothing, but I find it amusing that a search on Google News for "Henry Louis Gates" yields articles primarily supportive of Gates. Even more amusing, one of the top articles... more... - Victor Ganata

In any case, while we might dwell and dissect the case at length, the bigger picture is that it has definitely opened up dialog on the problem of race, and the controversies in law enforcement, with racial profiling specifically, but with civil liberties in general. While I can't exactly give you a numeric ordering as to where this ranks with health care reform or the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think it's hyperbolic to declare that these issues are completely trivial. - Victor Ganata

You people need to pay attention more. NPR said this is over and resolved. We can move on to the next non-news cycle please. - Matthew DeVries

Yeah, didn't Michael Jackson's autopsy report come out yet? - Victor Ganata

Richard and Victor: what URLs do you use to do quick and dirty content analysis on a topic like the Gates/Crowley controversy? These work for me: 1. Collecta: http://collecta.com/#q=gate... 2. Feedly: http://www.feedly.com/home#tr... 3. Friendfeed: https://friendfeed.com/search... 4. Google Blogs:... more... - Sean McBride

Here are two others: 1. Icerocket Blogs: http://www.icerocket.com/search... 2. Icerocket News: http://blogs.icerocket.com/search... I quickly scanned all these sources this morning, and I am not seeing much sympathy for Gates. Most people are not buying his narrative on the story. - Sean McBride

What content analysis am I doing? Really, people who are obsessed with rehashing this story days later this story are heavily biased? Is that supposed to be surprising in some way because I'm not surprised. However since I don't form my opinion based on the general feeling of icerocket blogs, I fail to see how its relevant to me. As a self stated contrarian, this doesn't seem odd to you? - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I try to separate objective political analysis from my own political opinions as much as possible. I am fascinated by the science and technology of analyzing politics in ways that produce accurate predictions. As for the long life of this story: Barack Obama guaranteed that outcome from the moment he made not one, but two public statements on the issue. This story is going to be difficult to make go away at this point -- too many Americans have become overheated about it. - Sean McBride

Two impressions of Gates's site, The Root: http://www.theroot.com/ 1. Gates has permitted many comments to stand that are highly critical of himself -- that is impressive, and he deserves a large pile of points for that. 2. Quite a few comments appear multiple times -- is that a technical glitch at the site? - Sean McBride

I don't need to analyze politics to predict that a rich, overentitled (imo) black man being arrested for mouthing off to a policeman won't engender much sympathy from an overwhelmingly white blogosphere. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I don't see many black academic and opinion leaders rushing to take Gates' side in this mess. Have I missed them? Like the rest of us, most of them think this story is complicated and needs more facts and analysis to sort out. What will be critical is the eyewitness testimony and the tape of the proceedings. But Gates already wants to "move on" and Obama is begging for a truce. - Sean McBride

So, by your analysis, black "academic and opinion leaders" (I'm not sure who these people are) are like "the rest of us" in thinking the story is complicated and needs more facts to sort out, but at the same time, the majority of opinion is"unsympathetic to gates' version of events." Are the rest of us in the majority or not? - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I think most people are skeptical about Gates' original claim that James Crowley was motivated by racism in an incident that has dominated the media for several days now -- and they are guessing that whatever new facts that do emerge won't support Gates. And most of them wouldn't have gotten in Crowley's face if they were in similar circumstances, on the grounds of simple... more... - Sean McBride

Excellent, thanks for answering my question directly. Now, exactly how many links would I need to provide to change your opinion on what black "academic and opinion leaders" think of the incident? Would 1 suffice, 5, 10, 20, 100? Oddly, to me, the article you linked to from Salon seemed very sympathetic to Gates' version of the events. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- I will be glad to read any links you post. But we can we agree in the meantime that this story has taken turns that have not been good for Gates, Obama or Obama's political agenda? - Sean McBride

Richard -- let me add that the most disturbing aspect of this incident is that has unleashed torrents of *real* racism from many right-wing blogs and sources, and reminded me that Henry Louis Gates is definitely not being paranoid when he presumes that he lives in a world that is heavily populated by racist enemies. I just don't think that James Crowley is one of those enemies -- far from it. - Sean McBride

Why would I agree with any of those things? I've never understood what your opinion that "Gates has more to lose" was based on. As far as obama and his political agenda, I don't think this affects those at all. I don't know what the police officer is or is not an enemy of, but I don't think he was justified in arresting anyone in regards to that incident, and while I don't want to guess anything, I don't expect there will be any evidence that comes out to support the arrest. - Richard Lawler

Richard -- Obama and Gates have already indicated that they themselves believe that they have a great deal to lose -- that is why they are backing off from this conflict with haste. Crowley stood his ground, and they blinked. This guy has some serious backbone. - Sean McBride

If the way HLG was treated by Crowley is what people of color should expect from non-racists, then clearly all people of color are completely screwed. - Victor Ganata

I agree that Obama does have a lot to lose politically, but is that really surprising? I'm a little unclear as to what exactly HLG has to lose, though, that he already didn't lose when he was arrested for no good reason. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- one assumes that Gates would probably prefer not to be held responsible for turning much of the law enforcement community against Obama as the result of a false charge of racism and racial profiling. That worry perhaps explains his sudden eagerness to "move on" -- this story is not developing in a positive way for either Gates or Obama. One hopes that the White House meet, if... more... - Sean McBride

Victor -- by the way, where I am coming from on this: I strongly supported Obama over Hillary in the campaign, and Obama over McCain in the election. I have mercilessly criticized members of my own "race" (ethnic group: Northern/Western European) repeatedly right here on Friendfeed -- Bill O'Reilly, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck, James Inhofe, John McCain, Newt Gingrich, Rush... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, maybe it's the failure of my imagination, but the only way this could possibly go completely wrong is if somehow they prove Gates should've been arrested after all, and that somehow he did break the law. As it stands, it looks like it was the wrong way for authorities to handle the situation. Could Gates have handled the situation better? Yes. But the outcome was entirely in Crowley's hands. - Victor Ganata

And from my perspective, it looks like opinion is only turning not because Gates is in the wrong more than Crowley, but because people are tired of talking about issues of race and the conflicts between law enforcement and people of color, which is not surprising, but is nevertheless really sad. - Victor Ganata

Sean, do you think Gates should have been arrested? if so, why were the charges dropped, and why did the Cambridge mayor offer an apology? if you think Gates shouldn't have been arrested, why do you suppose Crowley did it? - Karim

My take is not about who was wrong or right. I think things happen to move us in our spiritual development or evolution. Neither was wrong or right. But connecting with Gates' personality and having just arrived back from a return trip from China, he must have been exhausted. He was perturbed/annoyed and impatient. Didn't want to talk or be civil to a stranger at that moment. So he was... more... - Myrna

I still think it's wrong for a person to get arrested for something that isn't a crime. Normally, the libertarians would be all up in arms about something like this. - Victor Ganata

Victor, everything in life isn't about fair. We all have to learn lessons and move to next level. Sometimes something that is wrong or unfair is for a higher purpose, you know? (We meaning each or collectively.) - Myrna

For anyone to think that the left in the US cannot possibly be racist or biased is beyond me. That's just simply naive. So yes, you are going to get people from the left saying that he should have kept his mouth shut. And I don't understand how Obama's comments were so inflammatory. The mayor issued an apology. Meaning they were wrong. Meaning that Obama's view on the situation was... more... - Kandeezie

"No mention of race in Gates incident 911 call" http://www.necn.com/Boston... (Race had nothing to do with the call to the police that initiated this incident.) - Sean McBride

Karim -- I think the arrest was a bad idea, but not especially outrageous. People get arrested for disorderly conduct all the time, and according to reports from several eyewitnesses, Gates was agitated and abusive. The black police officer on the scene supported the arrest "100%" on the basis of his observations of the situation. I think the Cambridge Police Department withdrew the... more... - Sean McBride

Myrna -- you summarized the situation perfectly. See also an article by Jesse Washington in the AP today -- "Analysis: What they saw during the Gates arrest" -- with this money quote: "Neither man understood what the other man saw." (Jesse Washington covers race and ethnicity for The Associated Press.) http://www.google.com/hostedn... - Sean McBride

Victor -- if the police received a report that your residence was possibly the target of break-in in progress, wouldn't you, on *libertarian* grounds, want them to respond quickly and aggressively to the report? (Personal note: a friend of mine had his residence burglarized a few months ago, and lost thousands of dollars worth of electronics gear.) - Sean McBride

If an officer's first words to me were "step out of the house" (or something like it), not "hello" or "we've had reports of a break-in," I wouldn't be thanking him. A phrase like that is a sign that you're guilty until proven innocent. I don't appreciate that kind of hostility. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Victor -- I think that issues of police abuse of power against minorities *should* be talked about, and very loudly. But false accusations of racism and racial profiling only cloud the issue. - Sean McBride

Ok, so first you can politically analyze web traffic, then you can rationalize and mindread a reason for dismissing the charges that still justifies the original arrest. Are you still sure that most of these opinions of black academic and opinion leaders mirror your own? I see many that mention this idea of "neither sees what the other saw" in the context that one of them was able to... more... - Richard Lawler

Sean i'm more interested in what *you* think. so by "bad idea" you think Gates *shouldn't* have been arrested? then why was he arrested? assuming race played no role -- which is the point you keep hammering -- why was a 58-year-old Harvard professor, who walks with a cane, arrested on the front porch of his own home? - Karim

if something horrible happens and people come up with what *you* think is a crazy explanation for it, it's one thing to call it crazy, but you should be prepared to offer some other explanation that makes more sense. - Karim

Karim -- the arrest was a bad idea in retrospect, once we understand the full human situation, and who precisely it was that Crowley was confronting at that fateful moment on July 16. But Crowley wasn't in possession of that information when this confrontation began to unfold, and when Gates started pushing his hot buttons. But let's see what the tape reveals -- the Cambridge police are... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, you didn't answer my question. You admit Gates shouldn't have been arrested, yet you have no explanation for why he was arrested. anyone attempting to explain the incident in the context of Obama's statement that "there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately" (which is a well documented, demonstrable fact) gets an argument from you, but you have no other explanation to replace it. - Karim

Karim -- I thought I did address that issue: neither Gates nor Crowley understood the situation in which they were enmeshed. and the confrontation quickly escalated and turned ugly. When you verbally abuse a police officer before a public gathering, there is always a good chance that you will be arrested for disorderly conduct, no matter what your race or ethnicity. That's the way the... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, "found themselves enmeshed" - how convenient for yet another life's lessons. That's how it happens..we find ourselves in the middle of some chaos and should ask ourselves, what's the lesson. And its not unfortunate, there are no mistakes. That's why we're here. It's a gift. :)))) - Myrna

Sean, that's the heart of the matter, really: that cops can not only arrest people for little to no cause, but also do things like beat the crap out of them and taser them when they're already down or shoot them 41 times when they're unarmed, and they rarely suffer severe repercussions, and that these things happen disproportionately to people of color. While, yeah, this the way the world works, it doesn't make it right. - Victor Ganata

Sean please explain how it can be a wrongful arrest -- as you said, "bad idea" -- and at the same time we somehow need some more facts to come in. the question is, based on what we know now, do you think it was a wrongful arrest, or not? as near as i can tell, you think it was wrong, but dismiss it by saying "That's the way the world works." you don't dismiss an injustice by saying it was predictable. - Karim

Victor -- incidents like you describe happen all the time in America, and should be protested and discussed very loudly. But I doubt that Obama would have heaped praise on Crowley and invited him to a friendly meeting at the White House if Crowley were that kind of cop. When advancing one's position in a policy discussion or debate (say, about racial profiling), it's usually a good idea... more... - Sean McBride

you are also putting Gates and Crowley on some kind of equal footing by saying neither "understood the situation in which they were enmeshed" and both were responsible for escalating the situation. but who's more responsible for acting like a grownup and de-escalating the situation? the sick, tired old man with a cane screaming "get off my lawn?" or the beefy young guy with a badge and gun and the authority to use both? - Karim

Karim -- arrests for disorderly conduct are a vague area, and are subject to a wide range of interpretations. I think "discretionary" is the operative term. To be honest, I will have no firm opinions about the arrest until I see the transcript, and know who was telling the truth and who was lying. Gates and Crowley can't both be telling the truth, because their stories are contradictory. - Sean McBride

hahaha Sean. ok first you repeatedly say the arrest was a "bad idea." now you are saying you have "no firm opinions." you can change your mind once more before lunch, you know. ;-) based on what we *currently* know, would you say it was a wrongful arrest or not? - Karim

It wasn't a wrongful unrest if you go to a deeper level or layer. If you want to stay on the superficial or obvious layer, have fun both of you. - Myrna

Karim -- I said that the arrest was a "bad idea" because it stirred up a ferocious shit storm that has knocked more important issues off the public agenda (for instance, HEALTH CARE -- that's the immediate context) and because from a discretionary standpoint Crowley should have probably ignored Gates' abusive language. How justified Crowley was in exercising his discretionary judgment in the way he did will be made clear one way or the other by the transcript, which we haven't seen yet. - Sean McBride

Sean -- you said twice earlier the arrest was a "bad idea" in response to my asking you whether Gates should have been arrested. the implication being, he shouldn't have been arrested. now it sounds like you are saying he shouldn't have been arrested -- NOT because he didn't do anything wrong, but because the arrest distracted us from health care. :-D ok. so, again, i ask you, was it a *wrongful* arrest or not? - Karim

Myrna, sorry, in this case i am sticking to the superficial facts-as-we-know-them layer and not the deeper Karmic wheels-of-justice layer. :-D - Karim

Karim -- police officers are legally within bounds in making arrests for disorderly conduct. Context is everything, and the degree of disorderliness. Arrests like this are sometime abusive and unfair, sometimes well-justified. Let's see the transcript. No eyewitness has yet stepped forward to contradict Crowley's side of the story. Let's get the facts. - Sean McBride

LOOOOL Karim, be my guest. I understand(on a deeper level) why you are reacting. - Myrna

And I don't think it has much to do with the cop or Gates. - Myrna

Sean, again, based on what we know now, do you think this fell into the "abusive and unfair" category of arrest, or the "obviously well-justified" arrest? - Karim

Karim -- I will be able to answer your question once I read the transcript carefully -- it should be out within a few days. - Sean McBride

Still lurking here. This is a crazy thread. Sean are u gonna hire an assistant soon? - Christopher Chung

Sean, so you have *no idea* whether the arrest was wrongful, but you are *sure* that it didn't involve racial bias? the fact that the police nolle prossed the case doesn't give you a clue as to whether it was wrongful? the fact that the mayor of Cambridge apologized doesn't give you a clue? the fact that we should presume innocence doesn't help, either? - Karim

Christopher -- actually, this discussion isn't too challenging or demanding. :) I just take an occasional glance at Google news and blog search feeds, note the most important new facts and keep adjusting my interpretation. But the story seems to keep unfolding in a very definite and consistent direction (see, for instance, the latest on the woman who made the 911 call). Both Obama and... more... - Sean McBride

"caved?" you mean like "police dropped all charges and the mayor apologized" caved? that kind of caved? - Karim

Karim -- I was referring to the kind of "cave" in which Gates suddenly wanted to "move on" and in which Obama walked back from his first remarks about the incident, heaped praise on the alleged racist rogue cop Crowley and invited him for a friendly meet and beer at the White House. This is one of the most bizarre situations I have seen develop in any presidency, and it is amazing that... more... - Sean McBride

Palin & Sanford aside, i'd still like to understand how you can have no opinion on whether the arrest was wrongful or abusive, yet you can be sure that anyone who suggests it was is wrong. how can you have no opinion about something, yet be convinced that someone who does have an opinion about it is wrong? - Karim

Karim -- the transcript? Facts? Look before you leap.... - Sean McBride

Sean it seems like your "look before you leap" advice should have been taken by the Cambridge police, who arrested a man and then decided not to press charges. what i'd like to know is why you are sure anyone who has an opinion formed about the role race might have played in this is wrong. or are you saying that race *might* have played a factor in the arrest, that maybe the cop IS racist after all, but we just need some more "facts" before coming to that conclusion? - Karim

If this was a clear-cut case for disorderly conduct, why were the charges dropped? You have to understand what it looks like you're arguing: that because Gates had a big mouth, he deserved to go to jail. - Victor Ganata

race aside, i'm wondering what ANY old man of ANY color could have yelled from his *own* front porch (after he has been mistaken for a burglar) that, in Sean's eyes, justifies the cops hauling him off to jail? wtf was wrong with the cops saying, "sorry, our mistake" and leaving? - Karim

Karim -- I don't want to keep going over the same ground repeatedly. If you review the previous comments in these threads, you will find a great deal of evidence that strongly undercuts the charge that Crowley is a racist. Take a good look at the facts on that particular issue -- before you leap to assumptions that are easy to knock down. - Sean McBride

Sean, there's evidence for and evidence against. would you admit -- since you claim to have no opinion, since you want all the facts in, etc. -- that it's *possible* racial bias was a factor here? - Karim

The evidence *so far* is 100% against the charge of racism, and it is very substantial and meaningful evidence. - Sean McBride

"so far?" what happened to all this "look before you leap" shit? it sounds like your mind is made up. - Karim

LLL - I heard about it before Obama said anything, but then again, I pay attention to higher ed news services and academic blogs. I don't think it would have received this much attention if Obama hadn't answered that reporter's question, though. - Katy S

Sean, the evidence *so far* is 100% against the idea that Gates should have been arrested at all. the only reason Gates got arrested was the cop kept saying "i'll be outside" because the cop knew he couldn't arrest Gates in his own house. but you're so desperate to acquit the cop of racism that you miss the wrongful arrest. - Karim

LLL - It was pretty huge - I mean, there were nearly 10 topics on my FF feed (everyone's subscriber list is different, of course) the day it first got reported. I think it was national news right away because of Gates' stature. - Andrew C

Sean, unless someone has a mind-reading device that they haven't told the world about, there's no way to disprove that race motivated his actions. And the only way to actually prove it would be if Crowley told the world that "Yes, race motivated my actions." All the things you've listed are circumstantial evidence. As many have said, you can be the most racially sensitive, most well... more... - Victor Ganata

LLL - I agree. As far as academics go, Gates is pretty well-known so it was bound to get some notice. If nothing else, the case is opening up discussions about the way(s) race and ethnicity often color interactions between the police and citizens. - Katy S

I actually didn't think Obama's comments were that "out there." He mentioned first that they were friends and that he didn't have all of the info. he mentioned the historical/cultural reasons this is a touchy topic. He probably shouldn't have used the word "stupidly," but when he said that I heard it more as coming from a lawyer who suspected the charges wouldn't stand. He's never backed down about the fact that he thinks it was an unnecessary arrest - he's just said that he worded it poorly. - Katy S

I don't know why he chose to answer the question - that's probably a complex issue too. :-) He could have declined, but then maybe it's better that people are talking about the issue, even if they aren't always listening to each other. Side note personally, if anyone - in uniform or not - entered my home and followed me through it asking for ID, I'd be very nervous and unnerved. There... more... - Katy S

Victor -- isn't the American way innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent? Many pro-Israel activists (including many non-Jewish pro-Israel activists) have been accusing Barack Obama of antisemitism in recent months because of his sharp conflicts with the Israeli government over settlements and Iran. The attacking language is often harsh and strident. Should we... more... - Sean McBride

Karim -- "so far" was a big flag indicating that my mind was wide open to any new evidence that might prove that Crowley is a racist. - Sean McBride

If you want to discuss racism in contemporary American society, the birthers provide a much more solid platform than the Gates affair. The birthers are brimming over with easily provable racist attitudes, and going after them provides no risk (as in the Gates affair) of being unceremoniously upended and embarrassed by the facts. - Sean McBride

Katy and LLL: when Obama injected himself into the Gates controversy in the way he did, he made the biggest political mistake of his life to date (in my opinion). My mind was immediately boggled, and still is. He is usually much smarter than this. - Sean McBride

Sean. Sean. Sean. Police brutality exists. Racial profiling exists. You're in a bubble! This guy is not excusable just because he once resuscitated a black athlete. The best thing about this controversy is that thousands of african-american men are talking about their experiences with the cops. Do you deny their stories? - anna sauce

A mistake with whom? The only people I really see getting upset about this (Obama commenting) are white men. (with a few exceptions) - Katy S

Sean, that sounds hypocritical. you believe Crowley isn't a racist, but you have "no opinion" on whether the arrest was wrongful. incomplete evidence isn't sufficient for you on the charge of wrongful arrest, but it is good enough for you on the charge of racism. You absolve Crowley of racism, but when it comes to Gates' arrest... hey, we gotta wait 'till all the facts are in, right? - Karim

and it was NOT the biggest political mistake of Obama's life. Jesus. our first black president, what, he's suppose to sidestep a question about the most famous black scholar in the country getting arrested on trumped-up charges? as a state senator, Obama sponsored the Illinois Traffic Stops Statistics Act to *combat* racial profiling. in his presidential campaign he pledged to BAN racial profiling. you expect him to just let this slide? - Karim

A well-informed, intelligent and nuanced discussion of the issues surrounding Officer Crowley's behavior at the Gates' residence: "Brandon del Pozo is a captain in the NYPD (now working for Internal Affairs on internal police corruption cases, but with plenty of experience as a beat cop in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and as a police instructor too). He is also a Ph.D. candidate in... more... - Sean McBride

Ok -- one of the tapes has now made its appearance http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race... We can safely dismiss the charge that Lucia Whalen (the woman who made the call) was guilty of racism or racial profiling. Many people owe her a big apology. (The Chicago Tribune reports, apropos not much of importance, that she "has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent.") - Sean McBride

More: "Cambridge releases Gates arrest 911 tapes" http://www.bostonherald.com/news... - Sean McBride

Sean, funny you didn't mention this part: " But Haas admitted that Crowley's police report did refer to race. " - anna sauce

Anna -- I'm waiting to hear the explanation for why that passage appeared in the report before jumping to conclusions. One usually can't go wrong by waiting for all the facts to tumble in and sort themselves out. - Sean McBride

From the Wall Street Journal: "Wendy Murphy, Ms. Whalen's attorney, said her client has received threats from those who felt her actions were motivated by race. Ms. Murphy, who noted Ms. Whalen didn't bring up race in her 911 call, said she "feels that she did the right thing" and Ms. Whalen doesn't have "any regrets about how she reported what she saw."" Threats -- from people who jumped to the false conclusion that she was a racist. http://online.wsj.com/article... - Sean McBride

Ok -- here comes the flood: http://news.google.com/news... - Sean McBride

"Uncooperative gentleman," delivered in a calm voice. "Gentleman" could be a racist code word of some kind, I guess. - Sean McBride

Sean, nice that you wait for judgement on Crowley, but not for anyone else in that case. - anna sauce

Anna -- can you explain what you mean? Where have I jumped ahead of the facts? - Sean McBride

re: my last comment, you said, "I'm waiting to hear the explanation for why that passage appeared in the report before jumping to conclusions. " - anna sauce

And? Are you sure you know why the passage appeared in the report? - Sean McBride

I suspect her point is that you have clearly staked out positions on Gates (did you ever find a sourced claim for that "do you know who I am?" thing upthread?) while finding every possible reason not to for Crowley. - Andrew C

Sean, innocent until proven guilty only applies to criminal cases. Racism isn't a crime in of itself. It's not something that can really be proven. Once again, you can subconsciously commit a racist act without actually being an out-and-out racist, which I've never claimed Crowley is. - Victor Ganata

Andrew -- you couldn't be more wrong. Everything I've stated to date about Gates and Crowley reflect the facts as we know them to date. It strikes me that some people here have a strong emotional stake in painting this as a incident of racism and racial profiling -- they made up their minds from the moment the story broke, and the emotion comes through loud and clear in their language.... more... - Sean McBride

Victor -- do you think that Barack Obama is an antisemite? Is the charge fair? - Sean McBride

Sean, I don't think it's fair, but I can see how Obama's actions can be construed as such, and I don't think there's any real way to prove one way or the other, certainly to the level where it would satisfy his detractors. I honestly think it would be a waste of time to try, too. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- that's exactly the answer I would have provided to my own question. :) - Sean McBride

Sean - "reflect the facts as we know them to date." -- such as the still unsourced "do you know who I am?" thing? - Andrew C

Andrew -- you're digging yourself into big hole on that remark. Go back and read what Gates said according to the report. He tried to pull rank on Crowley by warning Crowley that he didn't know who he was messing with. Did you even read the report? - Sean McBride

Yes. So you admit that your supposedly verbatim quote -- which you never did walk back -- was made up, then? - Andrew C

I cannot believe I'm being lectured about not jumping to conclusions or rushing to judgment by someone who wrote upthread "Sounds more like arrogant classism in play here than racism." - Andrew C

Here you go, Andrew: http://www.google.com/#q=gate... The quote was a perfectly accurate paraphrase of what Gates actually said. - Sean McBride

paraphrase != quote. - Andrew C

The actual quote is more damning than the paraphrase -- you're grasping at straws. And it demonstrates perfectly the classism in play in this incident. - Sean McBride

Sean, quoting a report that is quoting someone else is not primary source, it's as the reporting policeman recalled. And if you think a lecture is one sentence, um, we have bigger issues here. - anna sauce

The fact that Ms. Whalen didn't mention any racial identifiers signifies nothing. What prompted her to call it in the first place? I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she's the type of person who does these sorts of things, and yeah, if my house was being robbed, I'd like someone to report it. On the other hand, if I'm trying to get into my house and my lock is... more... - Victor Ganata

Why dismiss the charges? - J. Abdul-Qahhar

If there were no ulterior motives behind the arrest and HLG had in fact committed a crime in the presence of a Law Enforcement Official, then why aren't they (the police department) pursuing it? - J. Abdul-Qahhar

man this story just keeps getting better. Crowley's police report says Whalen (the 911 caller) told him about "two black males." on the other hand, Whalen is now saying she never said anything about black men. (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl...) so either 1) Crowley is lying in his police report or 2) Whalen is lying. hmmmmmmmm. Crowleeeeeeey... joo got some esplainin' to dooooo.... - Karim

Victor -- in communities like Cambridge and environs it's considered to be a sign of good citizenship to err on the side of caution in reporting possible crimes in progress, because they do in fact happen quite often. If the reports turn out to be a false hit, nothing lost. Lucia Whalen did the right thing in calling in the report, and Crowley did the right thing in aggressively... more... - Sean McBride

So who do you think has their story wrong, Sean? Is Whalen lying when she said she never told Crowley about "black men?" Or -- shudder to think -- is it possible a white police officer isn't being 100% truthful about a race-related incident? - Karim

Sean - to repeat what I said before (and I'm saying this as a well-educated white female): "personally, if anyone - in uniform or not - entered my home and followed me through it asking for ID, I'd be very nervous and unnerved. There are folks out there who impersonate cops and I know of more than one instance where they have done this with the intent to assault/rape people " If that... more... - Katy S

Karim, thanks for that link. That USA today blog also notes that the police report says they talked to Whalen on the scene before approaching the house (see also the PDF), while Whalen says the extent of their in-person interaction was that she identified herself as the 911 caller and Crowley told her to keep her distance from the house ... and _no_ officer interviewed her at the scene. - Andrew C

From The New York Times today: "James M. Crowley’s initial response was to a bare-bones report of a crime in process in a neighborhood that had seen 23 cases of breaking and entering so far this year, many during daylight hours." - Sean McBride

From The New York Times today: "More than once on that afternoon, Professor Gates told Sergeant Crowley, “You don’t know who you’re messing with,” according to the police report. But one of Sergeant Crowley’s friends in Natick, Mass., where he lives with his wife and three children, said, “The professor didn’t know who he was messing with.”" - Sean McBride

From The New York Times today: "For the past five years, Sergeant Crowley has taught fellow officers at the Lowell Police Academy how to avoid racial profiling, after being selected for the job by a former police commissioner, Ronny Watson, who is black. “Stellar,” a black Cambridge police lieutenant said in describing him." - Sean McBride

Someone who would arrest him for just talking? - Richard Lawler

Someone whose police report differs substantially from the eyewitness's? - Andrew C

Racist or not, when he showed the cop it was HIS HOUSE, they should have buggered off, irrespective of what Gates said about their mommmas. - Will Higgins™

The fascinating thing about this New York Times article -- "2 Cambridge Worlds Collide in Unlikely Meeting" http://www.nytimes.com/2009... -- the extreme caution. It's careful not to take sides, and seems to be waiting for new information to emerge to make sense of the story. - Sean McBride

Sean, my point is, you can think you're doing the right thing, but in the end, what matters is the outcome, and the outcome in this case was not good, unless you happen to think that it's a good thing that the resident of the house you thought was being broken into ends up getting arrested. In general, is it a good idea to call the cops if you think someone is being burglarized? Sure. But in this specific instance, it was the wrong thing to do. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- did you notice that this neighborhood has suffered 23 break-ins, most of them during the day, since the beginning of this year? (Reported in The New York Times today.) - Sean McBride

OK, so Whalen may have not mentioned anything about black men, but you've got to love this quote: "When pressed by the 911 dispatcher, Whalen said she did not want to speculate, but said one of them might have been Hispanic, Murphy says." http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl... If you don't want to speculate, why do it? - Victor Ganata

Victor -- one presumes she speculated because she was pressed by the police (the dispatcher) to help provide some identifying features of the suspects. Seems reasonable. One is struck by how careful she was not to exaggerate or sensationalize what was going on. There is not even the slightest hint of a racist agenda on this tape -- totally the opposite. - Sean McBride

Reasonable to you, perhaps. If race isn't supposed to be a factor, why make it explicit? She could've just as easily not tried to guess. Once again, you don't have to have a racist agenda in order to commit a racist act, or to make decisions subconsciously influenced by race. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- if you've got suspects in a crime or suspected crime, isn't their physical appearance as defined by race or ethnicity (and all other dimensions and parameters) highly relevant? White? Asian? Black? Hispanic? Arab? That has nothing to do with profiling or racism, and everything to do with narrowing down the field of search. - Sean McBride

Except she was wrong. Why bring it up if you don't know? - Victor Ganata

When you're doing police work, I imagine you rely on every scrap of info you can get your hands on, no matter how weak or peripheral -- you might get lucky. At least that's the way they always portray it in the Jeffrey Deaver-style detective novels. :) The trick is to rate those scraps for reliability and probablility in a way that reflects reality. A guess or vague impression is better than nothing if you've got nothing. - Sean McBride

Well, I'm not a cop, so I don't know how useful a wrong guess is, but I wonder if it just doesn't make it worse for cops and for their relationships to minority communities any time they end up completely misidentifying what ethnic group to narrow their suspicions down to. - Victor Ganata

In many cases they are identifying members of the majority group -- whites. It would be a waste of time to search for African-Americans if the suspects were white. These basic common-sense police methods have nothing to do with racial profiling. What would be wrong would be to the make the presumption, without any evidence, that a crime was committed by a minority or that a member of a minority committed a crime. - Sean McBride

Sean, i had asked you earlier which person you thought was not telling the truth, Whalen or Crowley. given that their stories are not compatible with each other. EDIT: see http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadl... for discrepancy - Karim

Karim -- that discrepancy is quite interesting, and should be explained. But whatever the explanation, it will not have as much effect on the controversy as videos like this one: video(Black Cambridge Cops Back Crowley- "I Won't Vote For Obama Again" ... http://www.youtube.com/watch...) - Sean McBride

*blink* really? still? - Matthew DeVries

"Colin Powell on Gates: “You Don’t Argue With A Police Officer”" http://www.mediaite.com/tv... Powell: "I would say, the first teaching point is when you’re faced with an officer trying to do his job and get to the bottom of something. This is not the time to get in an argument with him. I was taught that as a child. You don’t... more... - Sean McBride

Police are just people, too, They are by no means perfect. They're folks who haven't been convicted of crimes, but it doesn't mean they haven't committed any or won't. I heard about a cop (from people who worked with him) who was busted driving drunk, and his folks took care of it. They have a code, too, which involves supporting each other, right or wrong. It doesn't mean we should be... more... - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Also, given those discrepancies, why has Mr "let's you guys wait till all the facts are in, cause I bet they'll all support Crowley's version" not changed his tune even a smidge? - Andrew C

Andrew C -- isn't it about time for you to admit defeat regarding this particular controversy? Obama and Gates were losers in a political firestorm which never should have made the local newspapers, and which was triggered by Gates' monumentally bad judgment. Crowley is being "punished" for his supposed misbehavior by being invited to enjoy a beer with the president of the United States at the White House. If you don't like this outcome, take it up with Obama. - Sean McBride

So, I guess you're also implicitly walking back your stance about waiting for all the facts, the ones that were sure to square with Crowley's version of the story. - Andrew C

I've seen enough facts now to know that the story has been substantially resolved and that everyone is going to move on to more substantial issues, thank God. Crowley came out of this in much better shape than Gates, which is what I suspected would happen from the outset. I didn't buy the Rodney King narrative. - Sean McBride

Sean, 300+ comments, this is nutty! Any how, I was thinking: You repeatedly bring up good arguments/sources as to why Gates was out of line. I think that can be granted, as Colin Powell says right here, that Gates acted less than ideally. And you also keep framing it as a political/news issue - OK, Obama is a "loser" in the PR aspect of it. But what about the truth of the matter? Was... more... - Christopher Chung

Christopher -- Crowley's testimonials from his African-American coworkers -- those who know him best -- combined with his track record -- are going to carry much more weight with public opinion than the speculations of people who don't know him at all and who are speculating about his "subconscious" racism. This story is essentially over. Gates wants to move on, and we should oblige him. - Sean McBride

I'm not saying that others shouldn't post criticism of Crowley in this thread -- feel free to go ahead. - Sean McBride

I think it's been pretty well demonstrated that Crowley ISN'T a racist, I agree with you Sean. But someone (everyone) can act out of racial bias, racist or not. I would certainly say that I am not a racist, and most ppl I know would attest to that. But I live in a black neighborhood and sometimes I catch myself, and I'm embarrassed when I do, automatically being slightly more aware when... more... - Christopher Chung

A few points: (1) Just because a white officer does something wrong to a black civilian doesn't make it a racist, or even racially motivated act. (2) Pointing out (1) has nothing to do with "want[ing] to protect rights, unless the person is non-white". It has to do with logic and reason, and insisting that people not allow themselves to imagine that correlation implies causation. (3)... more... - Karl Knechtel

Christopher -- I couldn't agree more: the role of often unconscious racism and racial profiling in American society (and all societies around the world) requires continuous concern, attention and discussion, completely apart from the Gates/Crowley incident. A subject that greatly interests me is ethnocentrism in politics (and the xenophobia which often accompanies it). And I feel... more... - Sean McBride

"Crowley is being "punished" for his supposed misbehavior by being invited to enjoy a beer with the president of the United States at the White House." Hey, wait, how come Crowley got invited to the White House, so clearly he wasn't in the wrong, but Gates also got invited to the same get-together and yet you think Gates /was/ [more] in the wrong? - Andrew C

Andrew C -- for a US president and a Harvard star professor to bend to a police sergeant and dramatically reverse themselves is quite a big deal -- that's the major story here. You can parse and apportion the rights and wrongs between Gates and Crowley any way you like. Colin Powell is making sense to me on the subject. - Sean McBride

As usual, the Daily Show nailed it. - Edward Zwart

"I think what got under Crowley's skin was not Gates' race, but his snotty attitude, combined with the threat to pull rank." You are an exceptional mind-reader and your talents are being wasted on FF. - Andrew C

"Harvard Prof Gates Is Half-Irish, Related to Cop Who Arrested Him" http://abcnews.go.com/Politic... "Henry Louis Gates Jr., the black professor at the center of the racial story involving his arrest outside his Harvard University-owned house, has spoken proudly of his Irish roots. Strangely enough, he and the Cambridge, Mass., police officer who arrested him, Sgt. James Crowley, both trace their ancestry back to the legendary Niall of the Nine Hostages." - Sean McBride

NBC/WSJ poll: Gates more at fault - First Read - msnbc.com http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive... "Here's our first tease of tonight's NBC/WSJ poll: By a 27%-11% margin, Americans say that Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was more at fault for his recent arrest than the Cambridge police officer was. But a greater number, 29%, believe that both were equally at fault. And 31% say they didn't know enough to have an opinion." - Sean McBride

Emotional 911 caller speaks following Gates arrest http://www.bostonherald.com/news... "Lucia Whalen, the woman who called 911 on a possible break-in at a Harvard professor’s Cambridge home triggering what has become a national debate on race, said today she has been left shaken for doing her civic duty. “The criticism at first was so painful for me ... I... more... - Sean McBride

More: "Whalen’s attorney, Wendy Murphy, said her client was the only one involved who kept her cool - including President Obama. “The one person who should get an award is being ignored,” said Murphy. “There has been zero attention paid to that and I think it’s strange.” Murphy said the president, the cop and the professor all overreacted and acted “badly.”" Murphy nails it -- and that is why Obama and Gates backed down. - Sean McBride

LOL, still on this? - Richard Lawler

Andrew Sullivan: "The Gates-Crowley Stand-Off Explained: They're both micks. Like me. They often get mad." - Sean McBride

Gates is a mick? - Christopher Chung

If I understand the facts, Gates is as much a mick as he is an African-American -- and that explains a lot. :) Perhaps this was basically an Irish bar fight. :) - Sean McBride

Lol that's awesome. they're relatives! - Christopher Chung

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politic... - Christopher Chung

The Irish understand much about losing tempers in sometimes irrational ways -- so perhaps Crowley and Gates will in truth be able to arrive at a mutual understanding. (I can see it now: I will be accused of racially profiling the Irish. :)) It turns out that Obama also has some Irish blood, but he has superb anger management skills. - Sean McBride

Sean, well i was asking who YOU thought was lying specifically, Whalen or Crowley. they can't both be telling the truth. given that either the person who called 911 OR the arresting officer is lying, don't you think that has an impact on the story? - Karim

Whalen's story is at least corroborated by the 911 call. Where does that leave Crowley? - Karim

http://www.bostonherald.com/news... -- not that Sean will want to jump to any conclusions ;-) - Karim

What that article is all about: "Officer Justin Barrett, 36, a two-year veteran assigned to District B-3, was placed on administrative leave pending a termination hearing yesterday afternoon. When a supervisor confronted Barrett about the e-mail - in which he called Gates a “jungle monkey” - he admitted to being the author, according to officials. Police Commissioner Edward Davis... more... - Sean McBride

"jungle monkey" - Srsly? day-um. - MikeAmundsen

And he immediately lost his gun and badge. - Sean McBride

well, this should make for quite an interesting "beer summit" tomorrow! - MikeAmundsen

The Gates/Crowley brewhaha -- I can't be the first one to have thought of that. - Sean McBride

"And he immediately lost his gun and badge." And what other response could they've made, with public scrutiny on them? Do you think that teaching a class on profiling makes Crowley incapable of it? I could think he was asked to do a job and did it, no matter how he feels. Sorry, I've had opportunity to mix socially with peace officers, and they're just human beings w/ egos. Racism? Maybe not. It could have been a case of "You must RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY." (Cartman-style) Cops get that way, too. I've seen it. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

No opinion on whether Whalen or Crowley is lying, Sean? Even though one of them has to be? :-D - Karim

I'm waiting to see if there is any official response about the discrepancy. What do you envision unfolding from this particular aspect of the story? - Sean McBride

Did Skip Gates comment hurt Obama's popularity? Check out these numbers http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing... "President Obama's job approval rating is down. The latest Gallup poll shows a drop of three points on the week, to 56%, the largest week-to-week slide in his young presidency and a striking fall from his high of 66% in May. And the question is, why?" - Sean McBride

And the fact that the economy is still deep in the toilet and the GOP has been releasing a deluge of propaganda against health care reform has absolutely nothing to do with it? - Victor Ganata

Probably the failure of the stimulus so far to improve the economy significantly (or at all) is the main cause, although one sees little positive commentary from anyone on how Obama initially handled the Gates story. - Sean McBride

From whence do you expect an "official response," Sean? Whalen has already given her "official response," via her lawyer and press conference. Crowley has filed his official police report that contains a conversation with Whalen that Whalen says never happened. - Karim

I am waiting to see if the Cambridge Police Department or Crowley comment on this particular point -- there are several possible explanations, and I am not going to leap to conclusions. - Sean McBride

Funny, you did days ago when you said all eyewitness testimony would land squarely on Crowley's side. - Andrew C

What do i envision unfolding? i'm not sure. if Whalen lied, i don't know if there would be any legal ramifications. if Crowley lied on his police report, don't you think there should be some ramifications for that? i mean, how much can you trust a policeman who makes things up about what really happened? - Karim

Andrew -- am I wrong in getting the impression that you and quite a few other people have an enormous emotional investment in putting the most racist spin possible on this story? Why is that? It would be very much better for the country, and for the Obama administration, is this were not a major racist incident. What exactly is the payoff for those who want to push the story as hard as possible in that direction? - Sean McBride

If Crowley lied, that would be a serious matter, of course. So: did he lie? - Sean McBride

Whalen being the liar seems less likely at this point, after the release of the 911 call. she had NOTHING to say about race at all, until she was prompted by the police dispatcher, and even then she said, quote, "Well, there were two larger men. One looked kind of Hispanic, but I’m not really sure." it doesn't make sense that she'd go from not caring/unsure about race during the 911 call, to explicitly talking about "two black males" when Crowley showed up, as Crowley said she did in his police report. - Karim

i mean, this woman answered a question about *race* with "Well, there two *larger* men" :-D and *maybe* one of them was *kind of* Hispanic. then Crowley rolls up and (according to his police report) she's all OMG TWO BLACK MALES WITH BACKPACKS!!! please. Crowley's story doesn't add up. - Karim

There is definitely a problem with that passage in the report -- everyone has noticed it. And pressure should be applied strongly to get answers for why it appeared. - Sean McBride

the question i've been asking is if YOU think that's even *possible.* all your comments in this thread have absolved Crowley of even the suggestion of misconduct or racism, while placing the blame squarely on Gates' shoulders, claiming that he overreacted, that the other officers supported Crowley (as if that were proof of his innocence), that the web zeitgeist as determined by you was against Obama, etc. etc. ad nauseam. no no no Crowley can't be a racist, he has a Michael Jackson album on his iPod! - Karim

if you put 10% of the effort into scrutinizing Crowley's police report that you did criticizing Gates and Obama, it might occur to you that the real victim here is possibly NOT some cop who people thought might be racist. - Karim

again, this isn't some minor detail, some minor discrepancy, some subjective difference about whether it was yelling or tumultuous. this was a cop saying he had a conversation with a person who says the conversation NEVER HAPPENED. that's not a minor detail. - Karim

Karim++ - Andrew C

And Sean, right back at you at "an enormous emotional investment", considering you're by far the most vocal person on this topic and nearly everything you've shared here has been slanted one way, up to and including quoting some bits that support your position and leaving other bits out. - Andrew C

Karim -- both Obama and Gates THEMSELVES have backed off from attacking Crowley for misconduct or racism -- and certainly Gates understands the situation much better than you do -- he was a principal in that situation. I imagine that both you and Andrew will be frustrated and angry if Gates doesn't sue Crowley and the CPD and if all parties to the event manage to settle it peaceably and amicably. My question again is, why? Do you feel more personally offended by what happened than Gates himself? - Sean McBride

Sean, i guess every time a black man gets abused by the police you want the black man to smile for the camera and ask "Can we all just get along?" :-D seriously, this particular incident doesn't mean that much to me: this shit happens EVERY DAY. the novelty here is that the black man is a MacArthur genius grant recipient, Harvard prof, holder of multiple doctoral degrees, recipient of... more... - Karim

what i have found galling is YOUR attitude, your hypocrisy, Sean. you hold Crowley blameless, but have "no opinion" on whether it was a wrongful arrest or not. i guess white cops are innocent by default, but you have to wait until "all the facts are in" with black men? you said the arrest was a "bad idea" more than once, then you backpedaled and said it was a "bad idea" because it was a *distraction*, not because an old man should have the right to be upset in his own house. - Karim

Sean, you'd think you'd look at all the people disagreeing with you in this thread, and notice the dearth of people supporting you, and maybe it would have occurred to you at some point that you WEREN'T being as unbiased and impartial as you imagined yourself to be, but you've been completely tone deaf. someone raises a good point and you ignore it, or bring up a non sequitur to "prove"... more... - Karim

Karim -- my position is precisely the same as Obama and Gates: mistakes were made by both parties, and it is time to move on. Why are you and Andrew taking a harder line on this incident than Obama and Gates? Please explain. - Sean McBride

Sean, how am i "taking a harder line on this incident" than Obama and Gates exactly? as i said, i'm more galled at your stream of bullshit than anything else. if Cambridge has one more or one less racist cop on their payroll, it doesn't affect me. - Karim

Karim -- many people disagreed with me in my opposition to the Bush 43 administration, to the Iraq War, to torture and on many other issues. So what? I got it right on those issues from my perspective, and I got it right for the most part on this Gates melodrama -- Obama and Gates moved to positions I advocated days before they adopted them. They obviously haven't the slightest interest in going down the same path as you and Andrew because they recognize that to do so would be a political disaster. - Sean McBride

To get back squarely on point: if a cop comes to your door to investigate a possible break-in in progress, and with the objective of protecting your property, you cooperate reasonably with the cop. Every sane and rational person understands this. If you verbally abuse the cop at length, you may well find yourself in the middle of an unpleasant incident. Colin Powell gets it. Obama gets... more... - Sean McBride

Karim -- you're kidding, right? How can you possibly not understand that you are taking a much harder line on this incident than Obama and Gates? Are they continuing to launch angry attacks on Crowley and the CPD? Or have they adopted a conciliatory tone over the last week? What is tomorrow's meeting at the White House all about? - Sean McBride

Sean so all this is about how you were vindicated and the political masters of the universe were wrong? seriously, that's pathetic. yeah many people might have disagreed with you about Bush or Iraq or torture, but i'm sure people would have *AGREED* with you, too. not *everyone* would have been saying, "Torture is wonderful! Sean, you are an idiot!" it is one thing to be in the minority... more... - Karim

No, Sean, i'm not kidding. you said i am taking a "harder line on this incident" than Obama and Gates. please explain how this is true. if i'm taking a hard line on anything, it's your ridiculous support of police arresting a man in his own home. - Karim

Karim: this is an excellent example of the Big Lie: "you are the *only one* supporting the police arresting a member of a minority in his own home." I am trying to give you some leeway because I can see you are more emotionally worked up about this incident than even Gates and aren't thinking clearly, but that doesn't come close to stating my position. Go back and read my posts in this... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, if i'm angry at anything, it's your support of police arresting a man in his own home -- especially when there is a 100% chance than either the police OR the person who called them LIED. - Karim

gee Sean, thanks for the "leeway." :-D how exactly am i not thinking clearly, in your opinion? - Karim

Sean, if you are a cop walking uninvited into someone's home, and the man who lives there requests that you identify yourself, you're supposed to do that too. is your point that disagreeing with the police in your home predictably results in arrest, or that it *deserves* arrest? or does it deserve arrest only if you're black? :-D - Karim

wait, let me guess -- you have "no opinion" on whether it's a good thing for the police to arrest people in their own homes, because "all the facts aren't in?" :-D - Karim

Karim -- we are so far from having a rational conversation on this subject that I don't feel motivated to rehash all the distortions you have posted on my posts. You are not accurately paraphrasing my posts or points, and I don't have the time or energy to keep correcting all your errors. I never came close to saying that I support the police arresting "minorities in their own homes." The charge on your part is completely off the wall. - Sean McBride

ok, so you're saying the arrest was WRONG then? because quite a few comments ago i kept asking you if it was a wrongful arrest and you had no opinion on the subject. - Karim

Gates' arrest was either wrong or it wasn't. you haven't said it was wrong. you said it was a "bad idea," then you backpedaled and said it was bad only because it "distracted" the country from more important things. so you have yet to go on the record and say, point blank, the arrest was wrong. without saying that, and with your unwavering support of Crowley, it only seems logical to conclude you think the arrest of Gates was justified. - Karim

i'm just trying to determine whether you support the arrest of innocent people in their own homes on general principle, or whether your rule applies only to uppity black people in particular. lol - Karim

Karim -- you are still not even close to accurately summarizing the statements I made previously. When you succeed in doing so, I'll respond. - Sean McBride

how am i incorrectly summarizing? i'm not trying to make you look like more of a moron than you already appear :-D you have repeatedly supported Crowley, you have said more than once that it was reasonable to expect Gates would be arrested, you have said the arrest of Gates was bad only because it was a distraction from health care -- so what am i getting wrong, here? you support the arrest, do you not? or is that too tricky a question? - Karim

Lucia Whalen's attorney, Wendy Murphy: "Gates, Crowley and Obama have “special training” in race relations and still overreacted, said Whalen’s lawyer, Wendy Murphy, today at the news conference. Whalen, who Murphy said is the only person who acted appropriately in the controversy, also is the only one not going to the White House for beer." (Harvard’s Gates 911 Caller Says She Would Do It Again http://www.bloomberg.com/apps...) - Sean McBride

oh snap, another non sequitur? i guess that was easier than saying "Gates shouldn't have been arrested." you probably choked on the words, huh? :-D - Karim

Karim -- you are still not remotely close to accurately paraphrasing my previous comments. You are much too excited about this topic to pursue a rational discussion about it. I suggest you follow the example of Obama and Gates and calm down. If you continue to be personally abusive (you just called me a moron), I am going to block you. - Sean McBride

dude feel free to block away. i didn't call you a moron -- i said i didn't make you look MORE like a moron than you already appear. maybe you can't parse the difference, but that's probably because you're too emotionally invested in the topic and aren't thinking clearly. ;-) - Karim

Karim -- presently I have only one person on my block list -- I am usually very patient in dealing with people who disagree with me. Do you want me to block you? I don't want to do so, but perhaps that would be the right thing to do. I enjoy disagreements that produce rational debate. But when parties to debates systematically distort the positions of their opponents and don't listen,... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, don't ask *me* whether you should block *me.* do whatever the hell you want to do. i'm not intentionally trying to misrepresent you. it appears to me from your comments in this thread that you *support* the arrest of Gates, and when i've asked you very simply, yes or no, do you, you have refused to answer. if that makes me blockworthy then block away! :-D - Karim

I DON"T support the arrest of Gates, and never said I did, In fact, I said I opposed it. What I wondered was to what degree Gates' language may have contributed to Crowley's belief (and that of his fellow non-white officers) that he was within legal bounds in exercising discretionary judgment in arresting Gates for disorderly conduct. We will never know for sure just how abusive the... more... - Sean McBride

you have repeatedly said how the arrest of Gates was predictable while simultaneously refusing to say it was wrong -- remember how you changed your mind about it being a "bad idea?" -- and frankly it seems like hairsplitting to say you don't know to what degree Gates' language made him *deserve* being arrested. what, in your opinion, can an old man say from the front porch of his own... more... - Karim

the point is not that we'll never know *how* abusive the language was because it wasn't captured on tape. the point is that you seem to think there is SOME language that an elderly Harvard professor knows how to use on the front porch of his own home (after he has been mistaken for a burglar and is legitimately upset) that *justifies* his being arrested and thrown in jail. have i summarized your point of view correctly or not? - Karim

once it became clear that Gates was the legal occupant of the home, that should have been it. whatever he yelled from the foyer, whatever he yelled from the porch, Crowley should have gotten in the police car and left. end of story. what could Gates *possibly* say that justifies Crowley turning around and hauling him off to jail? - Karim

Crowley's police report says seven people appeared surprised or startled at Gates yelling from his porch. Does that justify dragging him off to jail? Second point: why was the crowd there in the first place? Because *Crowley* told the dispatcher to keep the *police cars coming.* So the "crowd" of 7 people who were "startled" at the angry old man were probably only there because they were rubbernecking the scene of half a dozen cop cars that Crowley was responsible for summoning! - Karim

Karim -- you just demonstrated once again that you are unable to paraphrase my comments. You're arguing with straw men. What I am clearly saying is this: the world is more complicated than being right or wrong; often being smart or stupid is more consequential than being right or wrong. Verbally attacking cops is usually not smart and may often lead to unhappy consequences, whether... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, do you really believe that the turmoil this incident provoked didn't exist beforehand? That race relations, particularly between law enforcement and people of color, were fine before Crowley stepped through Gates' door? And that Obama and Gates can actually do anything to quell what's been stirred up? I really fail to see the damage it has done to Obama. The people who are most... more... - Victor Ganata

What damage has been done to gates btw - Richard Lawler

Well, people who didn't really like Gates before have said things like he should have remembered the 'black tax'... - Andrew C

Victor -- why do you think that both Obama and Gates suddenly reversed themselves on this issue? What were their political calculations? - Sean McBride

Now yet another black leader, Eric Holder, has weighed in and suggests that both Gates and Crowley may have made misjudgments (the same argument made by Obama and Colin Powell). http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009... (I don't endorse this website, by the way -- but the video link is solid.) - Sean McBride

"A new national poll released this afternoon says that more Americans believe Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates, Jr. is at fault for the face-off in his home that led to his arrest than Cambridge police Sergeant James Crowley, the white officer who handcuffed him. According to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 27 percent of respondents named Gates when asked who they felt was more... more... - Sean McBride

Victor -- I think the sentiments discovered in the above poll help explain the sudden reversal of Obama and Gates on this issue. Does that make sense? More: "But the poll suggests there is a wide racial divide on the incident. Among African-Americans, only 4 percent said Gates was more at fault versus 30 percent who blamed Crowley. Among whites, in contrast, 32 percent blamed Gates more, while only 7 percent blamed Crowley." - Sean McBride

"Gates and Crowley Update: 911 Caller Chokes Up; Crowley Was Star Student at Simon Wiesenthal Center" http://blogs.wsj.com/speakea... "In 2007, Crowley attended a three-day program for police officers on racial profiling at the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles. He... more... - Sean McBride

Continued: "Sunny Lee-Goodman, director of the “Tools for Tolerance” law enforcement program at the Museum of Tolerance, says attendees of the “Perspectives on Profiling” program explore the perils of racial profiling. Using interactive exhibits at the museum, officers study both the Holocaust and the civil-rights movement in America. Officers also engage in soul-searching about their... more... - Sean McBride

"Poll: Obama mishandled comments on race" http://www.google.com/hostedn... "The poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center found that 41 percent disapproved of Obama's handling of the Gates arrest, compared with 29 percent who approved. The poll also found the incident and Obama's reaction saturated the public consciousness. As... more... - Sean McBride

More: "The poll was conducted Wednesday to Sunday last week. Among those interviewed on Wednesday and Thursday, 53 percent of whites approved of Obama's job performance. This slipped to 46 percent among whites interviewed Friday through Sunday as the Gates story played out." - Sean McBride

Victor: according to the Pew Research Center poll just cited, Obama lost 7 points in his approval rating among whites last weekend because of the way he handled the Gates case. During the campaign, Obama worked hard to steer clear of divisive racial politics and to present himself as a post-racial president, as a leader focused on the American people as a whole across all racial and... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, if you look at Obama's statement, he steps back a tad, but doesn't really reverse himself. The only difference is that he regrets using the word "stupidly" and he adds that maybe Gates overreacted. Is anyone really surprised that a lot of white people reacted negatively to Obama's position? - Victor Ganata

Victor -- if this incident had obviously been a racist incident, with no ambiguities, white opinion would have been solidly behind Gates and Obama. One has to pick one's symbolic events and causes with care in this arena. - Sean McBride

Sean, well, we'll just have to disagree. I'm with Obama when he says that this can be a teachable moment. It's really these ambiguous events that throw a light upon the convoluted landscape of race relations in this country. I don't think we really learn anything from obvious racism other than the fact that, yes, it does exist. I really think the dialog that his incident sparked about... more... - Victor Ganata

@Sean That's always been my contention. I heard again last night on TV that this would never have happened if Gates were white. I completely agree, but that doesn't automatically make Crowley the one who made it about race. If Gates were white, he wouldn't have been in Crowley's kitchen like he was. You might say, an unruly white professor would STILL have no been arrested, and I agree. But there's unruly, and there's unfairly charging a cop of racism. Anyway, Crowley was STILL wrong to arrest Gates. - Edward Zwart

I don't disagree with you Victor. Obama turning this into a teachable moment is great. But what's wrong with saying "Jesus, I can't believe I said they acted stupidly! That was stupid! But..." Because I agree the landscape is convoluted. I thought his message (last year) about understanding both perspectives, say white guilt alongside black fear (to simplify) was very clear. But he... more... - Edward Zwart

Victor -- I really like the way you handled your end of this conversation. You've left me with the thought that I need to think carefully about your point of view on this incident. (We already mostly agree about the issue in general -- problematic cop/minority relations in America.) - Sean McBride

for me, this [http://ff.im/5Uwd9] was a 'whack-on-the-head' view of the whole incident. very different take on what was really going on here. - MikeAmundsen

"Black cop at Gates home regrets 'Uncle Tom' label http://www.google.com/hostedn... "A black sergeant who was at the home of Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. when he was arrested says he's been maligned as an "Uncle Tom" for supporting the actions of the white arresting officer. Cambridge Sgt. Leon Lashley gave a letter to Sgt.... more... - Sean McBride

I started this Crowley thread on July 23, when it appeared that Gates was completely in the right and that Crowley was a racist villain. By July 30, within seven days, Crowley was being hosted by Obama and Biden at the White House and offering a press conference to the entire world that was covered by the mainstream media in real time. All the polls indicate that Obama badly blundered... more... - Sean McBride

"We hit it off right from the beginning. When he’s not arresting you, Sgt Crowley is a really likable guy." -- Prof. Henry Louis Gates Jr. - Sean McBride

Sean, I don't think it was ever about trying to figure who the racist villain was. The most common form of racism is subtle and entrenched in the culture, and it's all about the assumptions people make. For me, it's the split between whites and people-of-color in terms of how they viewed this incident that's telling. It re-emphasizes the fact that we do not live in a post-racial world... more... - Victor Ganata

Victor -- big picture strategic thinking (not who was right or wrong): where do you think this story will go from here? My prediction: Obama and Gates will want to make it go away entirely as soon as possible. What do you think? I also predict that Obama will steer clear of racial controversies in the future out of fear that they will disrupt the rest of his political agenda. - Sean McBride

And, as I've been saying from the beginning, what a shame it is that the opportunity was missed to recognize Gates's responsibility. ..to make the teachable moment about the perils of crying wolf. - Edward Zwart

Obama should be feeling exceptionally sensitive and outraged about false accusations of bigotry these days: charges of antisemitism continue to be hurled at him in torrents from pro-Israel activists (along with attacks from that same camp which are undeniably and crudely racist -- see, for instance, Ethan Bronner's recent article in the New York Times on the subject). - Sean McBride

My main lesson learned from the Gates/Crowley fiasco: ethnic and racial politics, and identity politics in general, is often a tremendous waste of time and energy. Identity politics didn't create the Internet and won't generate other world revolutionary ideas based on science, technology and creative entrepreneurialism. Really smart people do not get mired down in identity politics -- they have more interesting ideas on their mind. - Sean McBride

Sean, well some people don't have the luxury of white privilege. Among a lot of people of color in America, dealing with identity is often the first necessary step to political empowerment. - Victor Ganata

Here is an example of what I am talking about. A new semantic search engine, Yebol http://yebol.com, was just launched that I think is superior to Google and Bing. Bio of the founder: "Yebol was founded by Hongfeng Yin, Ph.D., former Yahoo engineer, who has more than 20 years research and development experience on artificial intelligence, pattern recognition, data mining and search." Is Yin bogged down in Chinese identity politics? I strongly doubt it. - Sean McBride

That said, ethnic identity politics would be unnecessary if American history did a better job of including the narratives of people of color. The idea is that you can't really know where you're going if you don't know where you've been. The question of identity is often the first thing that sparks a young person of color into starting to question how the world works. Of course, some people are just naturally curious and questioning, so they don't need this kind of wake-up call. - Victor Ganata

And it all depends on what you mean by "bogged down." I don't know one way or another, but if Yin happens to be proud of his Chinese heritage, is that necessarily a detriment? - Victor Ganata

Victor -- it seems to me that identity in contemporary American culture is incredibly fluid, unstable and complex, and based more on rapidly evolving meritocratic cultures than on ethnicity, race or religion. If one is looking too much to the past for identity, one will quicky fall behind in dealing with the realities of the present. That kind of baggage slows one down more than it empowers and enables one. - Sean McBride

It's fine to be proud of one's heritage -- but to organize one's mental and emotional life around one's identity conflicts is enervating and crippling. It's not a creative or productive activity, and tends to generate a great deal of useless or destructive friction. - Sean McBride

If you say so, Sean. That's simply not been my experience. I've seen too many students of color who have been inspired to political activism, the pursuit of higher education, and careers in academia, who otherwise would've been apathetic and been content to be mere consumer citizens. - Victor Ganata

Fostering a culture of academic achievement in households, regardless of their ethnicity, race or religion, is probably more effective in promoting success than focusing on identity politics. Barack Obama has alluded to this principle quite a few times. (Jews have been especially fortunate in this department: their identity culture (ethnic and religious) has always highly prized... more... - Sean McBride

And when the emphasis on academic achievement is missing in the household, or if the household is too dysfunctional to actually pass on values? Are the people in this household then to be condemn to powerlessness and ignorance? I agree that fashioning a career solely based on identity politics is probably not very constructive, but identity politics clearly has its uses. To argue that Obama never dealt with identity politics mischaracterizes the path he took. - Victor Ganata

Victor -- most people understand that white Europeans inflicted enormous damage on African-American culture in the United States, and that large-scale reparations (in every sense) have been due and haven't been fully paid off yet. But taking the larger strategic view, one sees a new dynamic coming into play: with the economic downturn (and perhaps looming economic disaster), Americans... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, you are dead wrong. And in this particular case it is the African-Americans who are behaving as bigots and a racists – and I don't just mean Professor Gates. >< - David C. Cooper

Victor -- identity politics has played an important role in Obama's career, but it seems to me that with each passing year his outlook has become increasingly universalist. This is a psychological process that many people undergo when they have rich encounters with elite universities comprised of the most interesting minds from every ethnic, racial, religious, social and national group... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, yeah, as you said, it's not something Obama dwells on, but it's clear it has shaped his mindset. And the psychological process you describe doesn't apply to everyone. I'm not even sure it necessarily applies to Obama. A lot of people of color actually become exposed to identity politics for the very first time when they start going to university. - Victor Ganata

http://digg.com/d3z1jx ""Inkwell Foundation, a charity headed by star Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. is filing an amended 2007 report to the Internal Revenue Service because $11,000 it paid to foundation officers as compensation was mischaracterized as being for research grants. Questions about Inkwell Foundation emerged over the weekend, part of a tsunami of... more... - Noah David Simon

Sean, you said i didn't correctly paraphrase what you said, but you didn't say how i was wrong. if you think Gates' arrest was justified, please tell me what it was possible for him to say that made him *deserve* to be arrested. you don't need to reiterate the police's right to arrest people on trumped up charges, and you don't need to play Blame The Victim. - Karim

Karim -- the question, for me, is not whether the arrest was "justified" or "right"; the question is whether the arrest was sufficiently within the realm of normal American police behavior to be considered not too controversial by a critical mass of Americans. If Crowley's behavior had been sufficiently egregious or outrageous, he wouldn't have been invited to the White House. That was... more... - Sean McBride

you keep saying that it's *expected* that arguing with cops will result in arrest, even if the argument is legal. it's tantamount to saying "well it looked like the black man was reaching for a gun, so it's *expected* that the police would shoot him, even if he was only reaching for the ID in his wallet." why do you have to be an apologist for the abuse of power? - Karim

are your ethics really decided by poll numbers, Sean? surely you can't be making that argument. - Karim

Sean, IMO rightness is way more important than what is currently considered acceptable by Americans. An unsettlingly high number of Americans are OK with torture, with the current use of tasers as general-purpose police timesavers, etc. And I don't care as much about what's a political winner as much as I care about the ethics and morality of these things. - Andrew C

Sean, you can't separate the ethical and legal issues from the political ones. i keep asking whether something was right or wrong and you keep telling me about how it was bad politically. - Karim

I'm not an apologist for the abuse of power. I've posted hundreds of comments on Friendfeed strongly objecting to the abuse of power under the Bush/Cheney administration. But the Gates/Crowley situation is so murky from an ethical/legal standpoint that even the Glenn Greenwalds (militant civil libertarians) haven't mustered up much moral outrage about the arrest. - Sean McBride

Sean, why do you have to poll the militant civil libertarians in order to have an opinion on whether a man being arrested in his own home is right or wrong? EDIT: you're acting as if the political effects of the issue are actually *more important* than the ethics. is that what you believe, or am i misunderstanding you? - Karim

Karim -- I've already expressed my opinion repeatedly: I think the arrest was wrong. But it wasn't wrong enough from the standpoint of public opinion to turn Gates into a victim and Crowley into a villain. - Sean McBride

Sean, if the arrest was *wrong,* then why do you repeatedly make arguments that suggest otherwise -- that other police stuck up for Crowley (implying it wasn't wrong), that the arrest was to be expected (implying it wasn't wrong), that poll numbers show nobody's worked up about how wrong it was (implying it wasn't wrong), etc. ad nauseam. - Karim

In this case, the politics of the situation is far more important than the ethics -- obviously, that is the judgment that Obama and Gates came to. If you've got a problem with the outcome of this story, take it up with Obama and Gates. They (unlike me) have had the power to push this story in any direction they wished. - Sean McBride

ok, please explain to me how the politics of the situation is more important than the ethics, or how Obama or Gates came anywhere *near* to saying words to that effect. EDIT: in my admittedly possibly naive point of view, the arrest was either right or wrong ethically, and the politics *follow* from that -- not the other way around. - Karim

Karim -- I've already answered these questions you are asking several times. See my previous posts in this thread. - Sean McBride

no, sorry, i've read your posts, and i see NOWHERE where Obama and Gates said that the politics of the situation was more important than the ethics -- nor do i see you saying that in so many words. so go back and see YOUR OWN previous posts. - Karim

Sean, in my opinion, your stance - at least as conveyed by your words here - has morphed over time. Maybe try copying out this whole thread, search-and-replacing your name with someone else's, and reread it as if someone else wrote your words? - Andrew C

you know i thought *i* was cynical, but how cold do you have to be to say "who cares if it was right or wrong, how did it affect the poll numbers?" - Karim

Quote of the Day: "He's actually right. It is teachable. Here's the lesson: Shut up." -- Rudy Giuliani, in an interview on Fox News, on what President Obama should learn from getting involved in the Gates-Crowley dispute. http://politicalwire.com/archive... - Sean McBride

+1 Andrew. Sean said twice the arrest was a "bad idea" (in response to the question of whether it was a lawful or proper arrest) -- and then his opinion morphed to the fact that it was only a bad idea *politically.* - Karim

Noah -- as far as financial scandals go, that seems like a relatively trivial one. - Sean McBride

Sean, you saying "It's Giuliani time" now a la the police officers who sodomized Abner Louima? " "There's something very deeply pathological about Rudy's humanity," Crew says. "He was barren, completely emotionally barren, on the issue of race." -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id... - Karim

Andrew -- my views on everything are always morphing over time, as I acquire new information. Don't yours? If you've got a problem with the outcome of the Gates/Crowley affair, take it up with Obama and Gates -- they have decided to withdraw from any further conflict over the story and to make nice. No more threats of lawsuits; no more harsh words; instead, many words of praise for Crowley. Be morally outraged at them, if you must be morally outraged. - Sean McBride

Giuliani is usually wrong, in my opinion, but he sure got this right. - Sean McBride

so a man who has been described as "deeply pathological," whose name is associated with police abuse, who is "emotionally barren" on the issue of race, and who YOU describe as "usually wrong" -- in this case he's right because he AGREES with you, huh? :-D - Karim

Funny how your 'new information' is only the information that backs you up - the new information about the police report discrepancies didn't modify your views one whit. - Andrew C

Andrew -- why aren't you aiming your anger at Obama and Gates? I don't get it. - Sean McBride

Because _the politics of the situation are not my main concern_. - Andrew C

Andrew -- you seem to be morally outraged at people (like myself) who aren't more morally outraged about the Gates controversy than Gates himself. Can you explain that? Are you morally outraged at Gates for not being sufficiently morally outraged? Are you morally outraged at Obama, who is now essentially the stage director of this narrative and who is calling the shots? - Sean McBride

I see no reason why I can't have moral outrage over an arrest so stupid (yeah, I said it) the prosecutor nolle prosse'd it before ever getting to court, nor over a police report that _even if fully honest_ pretty clearly shows the cop baited the homeowner into a vaguely arrestable situation. - Andrew C

Andrew -- I asked you why your moral outrage greatly exceeds that of Gates and Obama, and why you aren't harshly criticizing them for throwing Crowley kisses over the last week. - Sean McBride

Whereas you've gone from "Crowley's not a racist" to "the facts will all land behind Crowley" to "the comments I've skimmed lean one way" to "If Obama's OK with it, then everyone else should be" (a stance you yourself definitely don't take in certain foreign policy issues). - Andrew C

Sean, I haven't seen why I should not be outraged, and you haven't presented a reason (besides an implied Argument From Authority) either. - Andrew C

Andrew -- Gates himself, who is one of only two people on the planet who know what really went on between him and Crowley, is speaking kind and conciliatory words to Crowley. Explain to me why I should be more morally outraged about the situation than Gates, and how I could do so without looking like a fool. - Sean McBride

So if only two people on the planet know what really went on, why were you going on earlier about all the other witness testimony? At _every_ turn, you have sought to minimize Crowley's wrong. That is my point. I don't think Crowley is 100% villain, but your take on the whole thing has been _remarkably_ biased. - Andrew C

Andrew: you keep ducking the question: why are you much more excited about the offense to Gates than Gates himself? How do you explain the discrepancy here? - Sean McBride

As I've been trying to explain for over a week now, another of my points -- one you have consistently ducked throughout this thread, speaking of "ducking" -- has been that the way the world works is not necessarily how it -should- work. You've brought up a bunch of quotes without (at the time) further comment all of which implied Gates was in the wrong for 'forgetting the "black tax"', etc. - Andrew C

Still no answer: why aren't you angry at Obama and Gates for treating Crowley in such a conciliatory and respectful way, while expressing none of your moral outrage? Why are you more morally outraged about Gates' situation than Gates himself? Weird.... - Sean McBride

Sean, no weirder than YOUR ducking. http://www.politicsforum.org/images... - Andrew C

Andrew: it is not a filibuster to keep asking a question which goes to the heart of this affair: why should we be more morally outraged about the situation than Gates himself? Than Obama? You must have reasons that sound reasonable to yourself that answer this question: what are they? Think about it. - Sean McBride

OK, will do. - Andrew C

Andrew -- thanks. I am honestly curious about the line of thinking that supports that position. Maybe there are good reasons that I haven't thought of yet and that you will come up with. - Sean McBride

Sean, we have no idea what's going on in Obama's and Gates' heads right now. For all we know, Gates' position may not have changed at all, it's just that the turn of events has made it all but impossible to feasibly pursue legal action without getting attacked for it, so maybe he's just keeping quiet. And I think you've been really selective about what you're reading. There are plenty of people who are still quite outraged at the fact that a man got arrested in his own house for no good reason. - Victor Ganata

This is how I would answer the question that I asked Andrew: perhaps Gates and Obama have felt pressured and intimidated to conceal their own honest moral outrage by the intensity of the racism-tinged reaction to the Gates affair from so many Americans. They are retreating from further confrontation from fear of suffering a barrage of attacks that are motivated in many instances by... more... - Sean McBride

i guess siding with someone you describe as "usually wrong" didn't set off any warning bells, eh Sean? - Karim

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. - Sean McBride

Andrew is also correct is pointing out that "the way the world works is not necessarily how it -should- work." i'm guessing Sean is only concerned with the political consequences of innocent people being arrested in their own homes and not so much with the morality of it. - Karim

Karim -- who are your favorite political bloggers and pundits? Who do you read on a regular basis? - Sean McBride

"Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. has sent flowers to the woman who unwittingly sparked a national debate on race by calling police to report what she thought might be a break-in at Gates' home. Lucia Whalen's lawyer Wendy Murphy declined to say what was in the note that accompanied the flowers, but described them as "a gesture of gratitude."" http://www.freep.com/article... Nicely done. - Sean McBride

i don't visit a lot of political sites, Sean. occasionally i'll go to cqpolitics.com, and back during the presidential campaign last year i was a fan of Nate Silver and fivethirtyeight.com. why do you ask? - Karim

Sean it sounds like Gates is buying Whalen's story (which conflicts with Crowley's story). - Karim

So the only political analyst that comes to mind is Nate Silver? I am just trying to get a sense of where you are coming politically and your depth of political knowledge. - Sean McBride

Sean was i confused for thinking you were politically liberal? just recently you quoted Giuliani on *Fox News* and now you are quoting Free Republic, so you have me kind of wondering. :-D - Karim

Sean, maybe part of our disconnect is that you are seeing this as some major *political* issue, the biggest mistake of Obama's presidency, etc., when i think it's more of an ethical issue -- i.e. should Gates have been arrested. i find it curious that you are reluctant to even weigh in on the ethical aspect but you take great pride in your political prognostication. - Karim

Karim: some sources I follow: Alternet, Andrew Sullivan (Daily Dish), Antiwar.com, Common Dreams, Consortiumnews, Counterpunch, Democracy Now!, Dissident Voice, Glenn Greenwald (Unclaimed Territory), GlobalResearch, Haaretz, Information Clearing House, Jim Lobe (LobeLog), Juan Cole (Informed Comment), OpEdNews, Philip Weiss (Mondoweiss), Stephen M. Walt, The Nation, Think Progress,... more... - Sean McBride

Karim -- I'm a progressive libertarian, and detest Fox News and Free Republic. But I have very little sympathy for identity politics of any kind, which bores me to tears when it is not scaring me. I suspect that that issue is at the root of the differences between me and you and Andrew over the Gates fiasco. You and Andrew are heavily into identity politics. - Sean McBride

see, i don't see it as primarily a political issue -- any more than any other incident in which a white cop arrests a black man for dubious cause, with a police report that's contradicted by eyewitnesses. the novelty is the fame of the black man who was arrested. the fact that Obama commented on it didn't seem unnatural to me -- Gates was his friend, and Obama has a history of being against racial profiling. - Karim

you seem to be using the interest of *political* pundits in this issue as some sort of bellwether for the *ethics* of the situation -- like, if Democracy Now! has nothing to say about it, that must mean it's ok or something. that's kind of the impression i got from you -- that you were incapable of deciding for yourself whether this was right or wrong, that you needed the consensus of the political interwebs or whatever to tell you whether it was ok for an old man to be arrested in his own home. - Karim

A distaste for "identity politics" shouldn't trump the libertarian concerns over being arrested on trumped-up charges of 'disorderly conduct', IMO. - Andrew C

Sean, i don't even know what "identify politics" means, so i have no response to your accusation that i'm into heavily into it. what i know is that people should not be arrested just for being "uncooperative" with the police in their own homes. yes we all know it happens, or happened in this case, but i don't see how you reconcile your claim to be any flavor of libertarian while essentially serving as an apologist for the police in this case. - Karim

23 break-ins in Gates' neighborhood so far this year, including a recent attempted break-in at the Gates' residence, offend my libertarian sensibilities more than Crowley's well-intentioned effort to investigate a reported possible break-in in progress. Gates now seems to appreciate this angle on story -- he just sent flowers and a thank-you note to Lucia Whalen, the woman who phoned in... more... - Sean McBride

To reiterate and reemphasize: there is currently an issue in play regarding racism in American political culture that merits close attention and discussion: the Birthers. The rights and wrongs couldn't be more clear. It's a solid issue to tee off on without quickly finding oneself in quicksand. (The Birther movement is overwhelmingly centered in the former Confederate South.) - Sean McBride

See, for instance: http://friendfeed.com/us-poli... - Sean McBride

What I'm disappointed in is that the question of race has managed to become a smokescreen for the violation of civil rights. I guess it's just time for me to accept that we live in a country where it's totally OK for cops to arrest you in your own house even when you're not doing anything illegal. - Victor Ganata

Victor, thank you for saying that. I've been astounded that there has been NO objection from libertarians about the fact that this man was arrested in his own home after producing evidence of his residence. If you can't rant in your own home, where can you rant? (I know! The Internet! ;-)) - Karoli

@Victor, @Karoli: i posted this [http://ff.im/5Uwd9] a while back to help spark talk about the role of police in US society as well as explore the notion that this incident was not at all about race, but about class. - MikeAmundsen

The full weirdness of the Gates/Crowley affair is difficult to digest: 1. Both Gates and Crowley are highly esteemed associates of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, an organization devoted to fighting bigoty and intolerance http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith... (Next we'll probably discover that they are Masonic brothers, in... more... - Sean McBride

I'm not even sure it's about class, although class probably insulated Gates from having to endure possibly worse abuse. I really just think it's about law enforcement abusing their powers, and how they've probably been emboldened by how in the last 8 years, we've given up a lot of our civil rights. I realize that abuse of power by cops isn't a new thing, but it just seems more egregious these days. - Victor Ganata

@Victor: i think it's possible that class plays into this in the following way: Gates perceives his class as quite high in the US (Harvard, Phd, author/pundit, pres is his pal). Crowley perceives his class has relatively lowly (working class stiff in a service biz where folks complain about his group [police] often). when they meet, Gates is intimidated by the gun and historical fears;... more... - MikeAmundsen

Perhaps, Mike. I have a hard time imagining when a cop would actually be intimidated by someone who is unarmed, unless it was a politician or someone who is immensely wealthy, and certainly only if they recognize them. But between Crowley and Gates, only one of those guys has the power to haul the other off to jail on whatever grounds they feel like, and only of those guys is licensed... more... - Victor Ganata

"Gates: Crowley And I May Go To Red Sox Game" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009... "Gates was mostly light-hearted during his speech and even poked fun at himself after a man in the crowd told him he admired his sense of humor. "I should have been funnier in the kitchen of my house on July 16," he said.... Gates called what happened to him... more... - Sean McBride

@Victor: i see your point completely. i am only attempting to look at this from a few other angles. i've had my own run-in w/ police. i recall the feelings i had at the time, standing there in front of my family. it was a minor incident, a mistake on the policeman's part and he was quick to recognize it and resolve the discrepancy. i can only imagine how things might have gone if that... more... - MikeAmundsen

Mike, yeah, my experience with the police is relatively limited, ranging from benign, to getting yelled at for trying to do the right thing, but that's another story. But, wow, those people you've seen berate/belittle cops must be either extremely brave, or extremely stupid. It can see how Gates' reaction can be interpreted multiple ways. On one hand, he may have thought his class... more... - Victor Ganata

A disturbing development, and proof (if any were needed) that racism is still an immense problem in American society: "Harvard tells Gates to consider moving after death threats" http://rawstory.com/08... Any thoughts on what should be the legal penalties for making threats of this nature? Certainly they qualify as hate crimes of some kind. - Sean McBride

"I can only imagine the producers’ surprise when I stated that with America being far and away the world leader in per capita incarceration of its own citizens, we are living in a police state. " [http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...] - MikeAmundsen

"Poll: Did Obama's reaction to Gates arrest hurt him?" http://www.cnn.com/2009... "A new national poll indicates that white and black Americans don't see eye to eye on last month's arrest of Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates. The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Tuesday also suggests a racial divide over... more... - Sean McBride

Tate DA FF MVP to Tate's feed, All Things Mobile, The Apple Room, 3G iPhone, Android, All Things Google

Google Says Mobile App Stores Have No Future | Gadget Lab | Wired.com - http://www.wired.com/gadgetl...

July 20 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Pavlo Zahozhenko, Alexey Gopachenko, Chris Rogers and 16 other people liked this

Should this be a controversy? - Tate DA FF MVP from Bookmarklet

7 more comments

I think semantics has everyone involved here confused. An app store is a delivery method, not a platform. It's entirely possible to have an app store for HTML5 apps. I think what Google really wants to see is a wold in which mobile apps run in any HTML5-enabled mobile browser, thus spelling the end of handset-exclusive, walled-garden stores such as the one for the iPhone. But that doesn't mean that the app store concept as a centralized repository for mobile apps will cease to exist. - LANjackal

@ LANjackal - Excellent Point. However, web apps running in a browser are still crippled when compared directly to a native OS APP. Exceptions like Gmail can be optimized for the particular Browser e.g. iPhone OS which is not bad and I’m sure The Android experience is way better. Facebook on the Mobile OS is close to perfect, can’t find a reason why I would go back to the browser however optimized it may be. - Tate DA FF MVP

I agree with you 100%, I was just explaining what I think Google's intent is. Native apps will always be faster than code running in a browser. Apparently Google hasn't learned from the horrible performance of AIR and Java desktop apps. Nothing runs better than code compiled and optimized for a specific platform - LANjackal from IM

yup. what Holden said. - vijay

why would it not Holden? In the end, Mobiles are just computers that can make calls. It's logical they will follow the same path as their "not-so-mobile" predecessors. : ) - vijay

It's just because google is trying to making some great web apps which even runs offline. With latest HTML 5.0. So the thing is you can save your page to make it work offline. Therefore, they say there is no future for native apps that too with marketplace. We can't surely assume that! - Mohammad Abdurraafay from iPhone

i disagree with "Google", actually one VP at Google. Here is why http://ouriel.typepad.com/myblog... - Ouriel Ohayon

@LANjackel server side web app code runs faster(sometimes) ;-) a local email search took 25secs, a webmail search for the same (on more emails, returning 6x the results) took 3secs - immaterial

MikeAmundsen to MikeAmundsen's feed, US Politics, #TCOT Top Conservatives on Twitter

FNC Responds to Glenn Beck Calling Pres. Obama a "Racist" - mediabistro.com: TVNewser - http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewse...

July 28 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

BEX, Jamelle and Sean McBride liked this

"This morning on Fox and Friends, Glenn Beck said he thinks Pres. Barack Obama has "a deep-seeded hatred for white people." Brian Kilmeade questioned him on it, but Beck persisted: "I'm not saying he doesn't like white people, I'm saying he has a problem. This guy is, I believe, a racist."" - MikeAmundsen from Bookmarklet

3 more comments

FNC is only getting more irrelevant with this kind of stuff. - Surya Suravarapu

i read a lot of people writing how fox news is becoming more irrelevant through their promotion of characters as beck and limbaugh and their ilk, but i don't see their popularity or influence waning one bit, which should be deeply troubling for the conscientious population of this country. - Cee Bee

@Cee Bee: yep. i think "relevance" is pretty vague and proly of no use to FNC. popularity is their goal as advertising is what drives the bus there. - MikeAmundsen

what gets me is that now that the GOP has lost a sizable amount of followers/supporters, that they're (for the most part) perfectly ok with allowing these two racially inflammatory (and yes, racist) cretins speak for a part of their agenda. let's be real folks, this is what people like limbaugh and beck really are when you get right down to it - normal, everyday people who are concerned... more... - Cee Bee

Steven Perez to Steven's feed, US Politics

Conservative Activist Forwards Racist Pic Showing Obama As Witch Doctor | TPMMuckraker - http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi...

July 23 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

sofarsoShawn, Morton Fox, J. Abdul-Qahhar and 12 other people liked this

"The election of our first black president has brought with it a strange proliferation of online racism among conservatives. And we've got the latest example. On Sunday night, Dr. David McKalip forwarded to fellow members of a Google listserv affiliated with the Tea Party movement the image below. Above it, he wrote: "Funny stuff."" - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet

57 more comments

Unlike - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from iPod

Ah, the shoe's on the other foot and they don't seem to like it. For eight years we were subjected to a variety of caricatures of President Bush. Now we're told that to do so is racist. Hmmm. - Craig Eddy

And then they have the gall to call Sotomayor a racist. LOL! LOL!! LOL!! The self-parodying party. - Tad

I wish they'd stop referring to Obama's plan as socialist. It's false advertising. If it really were socialized medicine, I'd be more enthusiastic about Obama's plan. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

And you know what? The only people who get bent out of shape when they hear the "socialist" word are the others in the right-wing. It's lost any punch it had with the middle and the left, so it has no rhetorical effect any more. Every time I hear the word now, I just laugh. Maroons. - Ladybug Heather

Craig, caricatures in and of themselves aren't automatically racist. - Andrew C

Obviously, Andrew. But because Obama is half black, any caricature made could be called racist. Why does depicting him as a medicine man mean it's "racist"? Because most "medicine men" were Native Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...) - Craig Eddy

Dude...WTF - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

And for full disclosure, I despise any such depictions of our presidents, regardless of party. The office deserves more respect that this, but it is not racist. - Craig Eddy

Yeah, it is, Craig. - Steven Perez

Can you really post articles about the R's wanting to keep the "rich white man" in power one day and say this is racist the next without feeling a bit hypocritical? - Jered Hofker

"Because most "medicine men" were Native Americans " - and yet the emailer himself said it was depicting Obama as an African witch doctor. More specifically, this is racist because it gets back to depicting minorities as wild savages. Some things simply will not mean the same thing if you invert the race of the depicted person, because to do so ignores the context of racism in America. - Andrew C

Jered - talking about race or racial issues is not /being/ racist, so I fail to see where you've drawn out any hypocrisy. - Andrew C

So racial "blindness" is one way. It's not inherently racist to say that white people are keeping the minorities down, but it's totally targeted and racially motivated when you mock up the most powerful man in the free world in a joke about health care. You're issue picking. I'm not saying it isn't disrespectful, but you're purporting to understand the intent behind why some guy typed... more... - Jered Hofker

If the photo wasn't racist, then why would the AMA need to act on it? - Steven Perez

I could care less what party you're in. That photo looks pretty racist to me. It reminds me of those old propaganda cartoons from back in the day except Obama's skin isn't actually black (#000000). Also, rich white men ARE in power. How is pointing that fact out racist? It just is. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

@Jered: If 'common sense' means thinking that portraying Obama as an African witch doctor is no more racist than talking about how the R's are trying to preserve the system's current biases in favour of the rich, the white, and the male, then you can keep it. - Andrew C

Sorry, I take the "common sense" back. Call it built up frustration at the direction my FF feed (is that redundant?) is going this week. Here's the thing: You say that you KNOW the artist had racist intent because he rendered our President as an "African" Witch Doctor. Then you say that you don't see anything racist about holding a belief that the system deliberately favors whites...... more... - Jered Hofker

From my point of view, at least, the R's and the D's are two sides of the same coin, keeping everyone distracted on superficial issues while moving us toward a mutual goal of control. Hope you'll forgive me for venting. I'm getting frustrated with both sides, here. Also, drinking + FF makes this stuff INTENSE =) - Jered Hofker

The President being black doesn't mean there isn't systemic racism any more. - Andrew C

Given the consistent level of invective that has somehow passed for "humor" concerning this president, I fail to see how this photo isn't racist. - Steven Perez

And quite frankly, I'm at a loss as to why excuses need to be made for people who are clearly not interested in any kind of honest debate about policy, but seem to wallow in juvenile, grade-school antics and then try to backtrack and tell those of us who take offense at their chicanery that somehow it's our fault for not "getting the joke". - Steven Perez

hey, if you don't believe this to be racist, you share as much of a screwed up, ignorant mentality as what fuels this McKalip guy. people like you all need to reassess your values and ethics 'cause you just ain't living right if you're willing to give a pass to these kinds of actions. - Cee Bee

If you think that this sort of thing is okay and not racist, it's time to pull your huge head out of your tight ass. - ::Kristen::

"Given the consistent level of invective that has somehow passed for "humor" concerning this president,"...wait, which president are we talking about? - Craig Eddy

Yeah, I kinda left that one out there for ya, Andrew. Steven, George Bush was consistently the brunt of a similar stature of "humor" (redneck, retard, looks like a monkey, etc.). It's all disrespectful toward both the men and the Office, but it comes from both sides. The people who make those jokes are never interested in a straightforward debate, and, quite honestly, that's probably for the best. Cee Bee, Kristen, that's the blanket hatred I'm talking about. You're contributing. - Jered Hofker

Jered, yes, GWB got a lot of relatively crude insults, but _those were not racist_. I mean, I think the claims that Obama's actually kind of dumb and inarticulate without a teleprompter are stupid, but those aren't racist either. OTOH, this picture is, because, well, it is racist. - Andrew C

And for the record, I'm not saying I never laughed at a GW joke, or an Obama joke, or a Monika & Bill joke. What I'm saying is that I dislike how both sides "dish it out, but can't take it". - Jered Hofker

I never said I wasn't interested in a straightforward debate. I also never said that the caricatures of Bush were okay either, so don't say that I'm "contributing" to anything. Bush was made fun of because he said stupid shit and made up words that didn't make sense. I shouldn't have to explain why this photo of Obama is racist. If you're going to attack our current President, do it in... more... - ::Kristen::

Andrew, I understand what you're saying, but my point was that the level of hate is the same -- they're both extremely derogatory. I'm not sure it's productive to differentiate that on race anymore, but that's probably a different discussion. Edit: Err, at least I think that was my point? I might have to read up -- this conversation is slipping away. ;-) - Jered Hofker

Jered: "They did it first"? Yeah, not a good argument. - Steven Perez

i'm contributing to hate here? nah, dude. you're completely wrong about that. if you're a shithead and think this is justifiable or benign in any way, prepare to get called out on it because it's absolutely not. i'm not about to tolerate intolerance just because someone thinks this contributes to the tug of war between political affiliations. this goes beyond those limits. there's just no room for this kind of nonsense. - Cee Bee

Indeed, Cee Bee. If anyone has to make a single excuse for this, they're the ones who are "contributing." - ::Kristen::

I guess Derrick was right earlier: "Interesting to me that people who often call out the lack of/overuse of the claims of racism are rarely victims of it." - Steven Perez

Derrick ++ then! (and Steven gets the assist) - Andrew C

Kristen, I absolutely agree: It's all counterproductive. Steven, I wasn't going for a "they did it first" there. You'd have to go back deeper than the history I've got. It's a distraction. It happens from both sides. That was really my whole point from the beginning. You've hit a lot of stories lately about the Evil Conservatives and I just happened to pick this particular thread, so I... more... - Jered Hofker

Oh shoot, forgot to respond to Derrick/Steven's comment: That's a great line, but somewhat unfair. A lot of the ones who are MOST sensitive to racial issues are those same people. Also, I have no idea why the AMA is getting involved, Steven. Did a Doctor make the image? =o - Jered Hofker

Clumsy dodge, because it avoids the obvious: the picture is racist, and he spread it. - Steven Perez from IM

Oh, and discovering the boundaries of what is or isn't racist is never counterproductive. Merely not pleasant. - Steven Perez from IM

Oh, lol. The "conservative activist" is an MD. I wasn't trying to dodge; I just wasn't paying attention. - Jered Hofker

Parties picking at each other is counterproductive. Racism conversations are definitely unpleasant. - Jered Hofker

And again: pointing out specific acts of stupidity does not equate to party identity. - Steven Perez from IM

It doesn't, but a guy starts to notice a trend. You're entitled to your opinion and the good moments are still good. I just don't know if you're marriage material anymore? I- I hope we can still be friends. ;-) Have a good night! - Jered Hofker

So much for intelligent conversation. - Steven Perez from IM

Sorry, my mommy always told me not to go to bed mad? I'd like to take one more stab at this, since this guy's having his career ruined (no one cares about that because he's a "*gasp* Conservative"): This guy received this email, clicked Forward, typed "Funny Stuff" or something and hit Send. Despite the triviality in that, we're judging him on it. We're assuming that when he saw that... more... - Jered Hofker

OMG. - rowlikeagirl

WTF?!? - Anna Lynn M.

" Isn't it possible that he thought "LOL It's funny because this will be the state of our healthcare system"?" Yes. "Possible" in the same sense as it's /possible/ flying monkeys could steal the Statue of Liberty and take it back to Mars, yeah. - Andrew C

Everything is "racist" with this administration. It's one of their tools they use regularly. - Spencer

Such as? Go ahead, I'll wait. - Andrew C

Still waiting... - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

*plays theme song to JEOPARDY* - Steven Perez

*crickets* - ::Kristen::

Those guys are getting really desperate, aren't they? I don't know if it is racist but it is sorta nasty.. - David Gross

Dear Irrelevance, looks like we are going to get a chance to meet face to face after all. Signed, The GOP. - J. Abdul-Qahhar

http://uggabugga.blogspot.com/2009... "UPDATE: The source of the image? Hard to say, but the first one that matches (on Google image search) is found on the New York White Pride website. And it's exactly what you think it is." - Andrew C

I feel bad for anyone who did not know that was a fake pic LOL - David Gross from email

heehehee, and he's a damn commy! - sofarsoShawn

Jason Wehmhoener

Polynomial (game) - a 3D space shooter with mathematically generated, mostly fractal scenery and models. - http://dmytry.pandromeda.com/games...

$Polynomial (game) - a 3D space shooter with mathematically generated, mostly fractal scenery and models.$

July 24 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Graham Sergeant, Greg Guitarbuster, mikepk and 15 other people liked this

"The Polynomial is a 3D space shooter with mathematically generated, mostly fractal scenery and models. It is easy to get started - you fly around, shoot some stuff, collect some other stuff, and dodge enemy bullets, all while admiring the trippy scenery and self-repairing by flying close to stars. When you're comfortable, you can set difficulty to "Insane" (press esc) for faster paced gameplay. To get really high score, you must be good at the shooting and dodging and collecting parts when you need them. You can also exploit chain reaction (never ending chainblow will be a level complete condition when I get around to implementing campaigns)." - Jason Wehmhoener from Bookmarklet

Beautiful timekiller =) - Anton

Kandeezie

These kids are thinking __________. - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...

July 24 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Jered Hofker, Jacob, Valley and 2 other people liked this

WTF! - Shevonne

3 more comments

But for real, I am going to read the article now cause I can tell it's a Sumo Wrestler. So they are probably impressed. =D - Shevonne

They look like they're suppose to be stretching, but one kid is looking somewhere...at something...for some reason... - Kandeezie

Those kids look horrified. - Jamelle

"isn't something supposed to be there? I donnaseeit!" - Robert Sanchez Jr

Kandeezie

I will nap... *thunk!* HERE. | Lolcats - http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009...

July 23 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Brent - Loving Life, Jamelle, James Tenniswood and 3 other people liked this

LOL - Dobromir Hadzhiev

(jeff)isageek

Chewie/Solo 2012 - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

July 23 from Flickr - Comment - Like - Share

Jamelle liked this

Kol Tregaskes

My Bloody Valentine - Soon (Andrew Weatherall Mix) - http://www.youtube.com/watch...

July 23 from YouTube favorites - Comment - Like - Share

Jamelle and Gregg Le Blanc liked this

Randy Allen Bishop

Caption?

July 21 - Comment - Like - Share

bnoise, HealingBrush, Bryan Tsai and 48 other people liked this

Cat Burglar Training School: Classes Start Soon! - Jess

21 more comments

Just too cute. - Todd Hoff

"We'll see how well you control yours....if you ever have one" - Geoff Schultz

kids, whatcha gonna do? - BEX

We're coming for you, Barbara - Shevonne

something to see here? - chaz2b

Quick, hide the key - Aaman (Clone of FF)

Good morning. I see the assassins have failed. - R1CC1

Little Cat: "The Boss asked youse a question! Where. Is. Da. Catnip. Now answers it or get lost!" - James (!?)

My response: http://friendfeed.com/persian... - Aaman (Clone of FF)

Oh, oh! Better: "What? You think humans are the only ones with mini-mees?" - James (!?)

The cuteness, it burns. - Jamelle

@Jamelle Dune reference? - Shevonne

Alright posing done, now lemme out! - Aaman (Clone of FF)

He's YOUR child... - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

LOL- James! Love the catnip one! - R1CC1

haha so sweet and funny - Myrna

Don't try this at home, kids. - Rick Cogley

"I shall call him... Mini-Me!" - Griselda

Mini-Mew? - Rick Cogley

yesh! lol! - Griselda

+10 @Rick Cogley! - James (!?)

*blushes* - Rick Cogley

Steven Perez to Steven's feed, US Politics

Think Progress » Jimmy Carter: ‘The words of God do not justify cruelty to women.’ - http://thinkprogress.org/2009...

July 21 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

J. Abdul-Qahhar, Tracy Benham, Jamelle and 36 other people liked this

"The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views." - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet

28 more comments

He's still my favorite ex-President. - josh neff, geek at large

ditto joshua - tiffany

That is AWESOME. - Ladybug Heather

Ditto tiffany and joshua. - Betsy (bentley) Vera

Ditto tiffany, joshua and betsy. He may not have been the best president, but I love what he does now. - Lis

He was the best President of the last forty years. - Eric P

Eric - I'm of the opinion that Clinton was. - Lis

I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't agree that the subjugation of women requires some incorrect interpretation of these texts. From stoning women to death who didn't cry out loudly enough while being raped, to women being instructed to keep their mouths shut in church, it's the religious texts themselves that provide the "justification." - Christopher A Carr from Android

I would disagree. As heinous as the punishments of the Mosaic Law sounds to modern Western ears, the majority of the Law's canon was superseded by the Christ's sacrifice, and the first century governing body of elders made that quite clear in Acts. So any justification for violence towards women or capital punishment would be heavily dependent on the interpretation of the reader. - Steven Perez from IM

"male religious leaders have had - and still have " - screw that.. drop the "relgious" of it!! In short Men of power generally abuse women... check of good old clinton ! - Peter Dawson

That argument is not germane to the discussion, Peter. - Steven Perez

oh what about Jimmy Swagat(?) He is a Christian leader too ?? so lets not just point to the Mosaic law or the Christian law. The issue is that 'leaders' tend to bend the interpretation to suit their own convictions, and at times have a very good way of pursudeing the others that its just A-OK . Who is to blame ?the peopel that belive them or the Leaders who make the belief ? - Peter Dawson

I think you misunderstand, Peter. No one here is saying that men in positions of power do not misuse their power. What we are discussing is whether the blame for such actions lie with the texts they call on or whether the misinterpretation of the texts is responsible. - Steven Perez

And for the record: not a big fan of Bill Clinton, but she showed him her thong. He simply took advantage of the situation and then tried to lie his way out of it. Again, nothing to do with the above, but there it is. - Steven Perez

Steven: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law..." At any rate, Carter wasn't just talking about Christianity. And the NT makes it pretty clear (especially via Paul) what is a woman's station, relative to men. - Christopher A Carr from Android

Christopher: You left out the first part of that scripture in Matthew 5: "“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place." This is not say that... more... - Steven Perez

And given the fact that the vast majority of societies at the time of the Bible's writing were patriarchal societies, it should not be surprising that a 2000-year-old book would have such patriarchal ideas. What is quite revolutionary about the Bible, though, was that God expected men to be every bit as subjective to His wishes. The entire hierarchal structure for first the Jews and... more... - Steven Perez

Treating a women as less than a man is down right un-american. That's how I see it! - Charlie Barone

Fine. In 2009, that makes sense. - Steven Perez from IM

Steven: If it's your contention that these documents are at least to some degree inspired by an omniscient being, then it *is* surprising that the texts would be written in a manner as to require such convoluted apologies by adherents living in less "patriarchal," future times. - Christopher A Carr from Android

"Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church." (NASB, 1 Cor. 14:34-35) ... I suppose "...it is improper for a woman to speak in church" really means something else? Perhaps Paul was just a product of a patriarchal culture -- but isn't that the point? - Christopher A Carr

In Cor 11:5 - Women are allowed to allowed to Pray and Prophesy in Church. So "Speak" in Ch 14 may be describing the demanding for an explanation to the speaking of tongues.e.g. "please keep silent, and ask your husbands when you get home, what the speaking in tongues meant." This was only directed to 1 church. Corinth was a rather interesting city too.... - Mike Nencetti

Mike: Speaking in tongues? Is that what's that's about? The explanations always get more circuitous. Best just to jettison all this Bronze Age-derived horseshit. - Christopher A Carr from Android

An interesting hypothesis, Christopher. I often say the same about Stoic and Epicurean philosophy. - Steven Perez

liking for the comments. - Alex Scrivener

The day that all organized religions die, is the day that the mankind will be free. - Robert Couture

@Christopher, I believe that the bible is a living text, and that interpretations of scripture change and evolve over time, as humans change and evolve over time. You can prooftext to support enslaving others, to support subjugating women, to support many kinds of intolerance and even genocide. What I do *not* believe is that a given passage can have one and only one meaning, from when it was first written and until the end of time. - Ladybug Heather

All words come from people. God only purrs. - Mark Czerniec

@lis: Clinton repealed Glass Steagal, telecom deregulation, gave us DADT and DOMA, and botched healthcare reform so badly we had to wait 16 years to try again. The economy of the late 90's was largely attributable to the dotcom bubble. While he was great on issues of foreign policy and national security, that other stuff weighs heavily against him. Carter, on the other hand, is the only... more... - Eric P

Kol Tregaskes to Kol's feed, Google Wave, Appetite

Google Wave is Coming: 100,000 Invites Go Out on September 30th - http://mashable.com/2009...

July 22 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

JoeD, Raphael, Raphael, Jannifer @wordsforliving and 27 other people liked this

"Less than two months ago, Google dropped a spectacular surprise upon the world: Google Wave. The communication tool aspires to redefine not only email, but the entire web. And from our very first test of Google Wave to our complete Google Wave Guide, we have to say that it’s a game changer. Well, in the last two months, Google and third-party developers have been hard at work testing out the system, fixing the kinks, and building some amazing extensions (which we discussed in-depth previously). Still, only a handful of people, almost all developers, have access. That’s about to change soon though: on September 30th, Google will start sending out about 100,000 invites for the next version of Google Wave." - Kol Tregaskes from Bookmarklet

13 more comments

I certainly would love to be one of the 100k. :-) - Kol Tregaskes

fingers crossed! - Dan Smith from IM

Hopefully invitations will be worldwide and not US-centric as Google Voice for which I have a superb unusable invite! - Jean-Charles VERDIE

Kol, I'm standing in line right next to you :) - Holger Eilhard

Jean-Charles VERDIE, I assume that has more to do with the telephone exchanges etc that Google need access to before they can provide Voice to other parts of the world. However I cannot see why Wave would have any Geo-retardation linked to it... but who knows. Me, I signed up for the updates to see if that counts towards the likely recipients of the Golden Tickets. - Travis Koger

Travis, I agree with you and don't see neither what could bring such problem. I just blame google for sending an unusable invite on GV - Jean-Charles VERDIE

Jean, that is very odd. Someone at Google didn't think about that properly. ;-) - Kol Tregaskes

Holger, and about a million others as well I'd imagine. - Kol Tregaskes

new group dev focused: http://friendfeed.com/google-... - Mark Essel

as a physicist i'm quite amused by "Google Wave Guide" - Imabug

@Imabug, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one geeky enough to catch the wave guide reference (and mention it before I had a chance to) - Seth Greenblatt

In the meantime, you can set your own server up, if you're a glutton for punishment, but don't expect it to be interoperable with the Wave Sandbox, or even functional. Still, it'd have been fun if they implemented a GMail-style "chain mail" invitation system, for the time being. - Tyson Key

Tyson, Good invite system suggestion. That would promote development social groups at least until more invites go out - Mark Essel from iPhone

I hope additional invites will follow shortly after. :-) - Kol Tregaskes

Steven Perez to Steven's feed, US Politics

Think Progress » Executives receive one-third of all pay in the U.S. - http://thinkprogress.org/2009...

July 21 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

tiffany, Bill Sodeman, manielse (Mark Nielsen) and 4 other people liked this

"Executives and other highly compensated employees now receive more than one-third of all pay in the U.S., according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of Social Security Administration data — without counting billions of dollars more in pay that remains off federal radar screens that measure wages and salaries. Highly paid employees received nearly $2.1 trillion of the $6.4 trillion in total U.S. pay in 2007, the latest figures available. The compensation numbers don’t include incentive stock options, unexercised stock options, unvested restricted stock units and certain benefits." - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet

8 more comments

Fixing Executive Compensation Excesses The board members who decide a CEO's pay have a fundamental conflict of interest, and shareholders need to have more of a say http://www.businessweek.com/managin... - Jason Wehmhoener

Harvard Business Review: How to Fix Executive Pay http://blogs.harvardbusiness.org/hbr... - Jason Wehmhoener

NYTimes: Whom do corporate boards represent? http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009... - Jason Wehmhoener

International Business Time: Revisiting Executive Pay: The Problem is Systemic http://www.ibtimes.com/article... - Jason Wehmhoener

Fast Company: Why the Executive Compensation Debate is Fundamentally Flawed http://www.fastcompany.com/blog... - Jason Wehmhoener

Regarding that IBT article - the problem is systemic, I agree, but it seems to me to be peculiarly an American systemic problem - executives in many other first-world nations do not have such a high exec/regular worker pay ratio. - Andrew C

Elsewhere, there's actually a progressive tax system which reduces the incentive to pay out these ridiculously large compensation packages. We used to have that in the US too - under Eisenhower the top bracket had a 90% rate. - Eric P

I read recently that in the days of high top tax rates, executives extracted money out of the company in less obvious ways than direct compensation: company restaurants, expense accounts, executive apartments, etc. - Andrew C

+1 Andrew. Legislation always has loopholes. - Bill Sodeman

Steven Perez to Steven's feed, US Politics

Jindal Cites Katrina, FEMA as Argument Against "Government-Run Health Care" - http://blip.tv/file/2384270

July 21 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Ladybug Heather, rowlikeagirl, Jessie and 8 other people liked this

*psst* Hey, Bobby. That whole FEMA mess? Yeah, your party's fault. Just saying. - Steven Perez from Bookmarklet

56 more comments

*psst* Hey, Sean. "Brownie, you're doin a heckuva job." - Steven Perez

oi - Geoff Schultz

BTW thanks Steven for bringing so much news on this important topic to friendfeed. - Geoff Schultz

Psst: The state Governor has to call FEMA to come, by law. Also, it's not widely known that it is against the law for FEMA to erect housing in a flood plain. Psst: Hey, Ray... your buses are over there, right where they have been parked for a month. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

Why is everybody whispering? - Jason Wehmhoener

Because these little nuggets of fact seem to be secrets. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

Mark: Yeah, I heard that before - the year prior in Florida. Election year, four hurricanes, president's brother - immediate aid. This time? Nope, it's the state's business. Not our call. Nope nope nope. That's why it's called FEMA: FEDERAL Emergency Management Agency. That's their job - to show up when trouble like Katrina hits. - Steven Perez

I am pretty sure the FEMA was a conservative setup. the conservative worldview doesn't believe government should provide anything beyond an army and maybe some police. so I suspect very strongly that Cheney--I mean bush--deliberately appointed someone unqualified so hey could say "SEE, I told you government agencies don't work. let's get rid of FEMA." - tiffany from iPod

And the reason why residents along the Gulf Coast got irate? Because, compared to previous hurricanes, the people who were supposed to show up ... didn't. You can blame the governor, you can blame the mayor, but at the end of the day, when an entire American city ends up under water, you can't say that the president and his horse-show appointee WASN'T somehow to blame. - Steven Perez

You know, what passes for conservatism these days is merely corporate anarchy. May the best borg win, and everybody else can hang. The people that say that mismanagement of FEMA under Michael Brown is proof of the impossibility of government agencies ever doing anything useful are the same people who will call for demolishing the department of education and the park service in the next breath. Jerks. - Jason Wehmhoener

It boils down to federal vs state, SP. If FEMA, a federal agency, can respond without the state requesting, can other federal agencies? Can the president send the Marines to break up a riot? And I agree the time seemed long, but, when was the call made? Do you have a phone record? - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

The same thing would not have happened on Clinton's watch. http://thehill.com/josh-ma... - Jason Wehmhoener

I'm pretty sure the national guard has been used for riot control before http://www.time.com/time... Best I recall the state has to request them but the fed has to dispatch them, no? - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

There are a great many things that are more appropriately handled at the federal level than at the state level. - Jason Wehmhoener

Mark: this wasn't a run-of-the-mill hurricane. This was one of the three worst case disaster scenarios happening. Whatever local or state preparation for such an emergency was inadequate merely based on the scope involved. And the one guy who could have stepped in - the same guy who broke his vacation in the middle of the night, in his pjs, no less, to sign legislation to keep one brain... more... - Steven Perez

we have learned a great many things, but a shortcut through the labyrinth is not among them. - Joe Silence is Dr. Teeth!

Oh, and the National Guard, the folks with the equipment and training for this kind of thing? They were in Iraq. Along with their equipment. - Steven Perez

Absolutely correct Tina. They won't come unless their presence is specifically requested. As with any federal agency including FEMA. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

SP so it' okay with you to violate federal laws when it's convenient? Got it. - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

As I said, Iraq: "BAGHDAD, Sept. 1 -- The 3,700 Louisiana National Guard members in Iraq will begin heading home within about a week as part of normal troop rotations, but there are no mass Guard movements back to the United States planned to aid hurricane relief, U.S. military officials in Baghdad said Thursday. "Everyone we have here, and every piece of equipment we have here, is... more... - Steven Perez

Mark: "With the consent of state governors, members or units of state National Guard may be appointed or deployed as federally recognized armed force members in active or inactive service.[5][6][7] If so recognized, they become part of the National Guard of the United States.[1] The National Guard of the United States units or members may be called up for federal active duty in times of... more... - Steven Perez

States Push to Take Back National Guard http://www.truthout.org/021109J - Jason Wehmhoener

In other words, if the President deems a national emergency, he can activate the Guard. Which he didn't. - Steven Perez

Sean: people kept dying from exposure and dehydration for some time after the 1st. - Steven Perez

You can avoid the issue all you want. What was the time span between the hurricane damage occurring and the state Governor asking for FEMA to step in? What was the time span from the moment FEMA was requested to the moment they were on site? - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

Mark, if memory serves it was upwards of 4 days for the first FEMA crews to arrive, longer for crews with actual assistive supplies. Dave got the call to go help and was there with a co-worker the next day. - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

*sigh* 1957, Mark: "Faubus' name became internationally known during the Little Rock Crisis of 1957, when he used the National Guard to stop black Americans from attending Little Rock Central High School as part of federally ordered racial desegregation. His strong stand on this issue may seem surprising considering Faubus' 1954 run for governor as a progressive candidate promising to... more... - Steven Perez

Tina is that four days from when Katrina hit or four days from when the Governor asked for federal assistance? - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

So, to answer your question: however long it might have been to make a call, Bush could have decided immediately to dispatch whatever forces were necessary to help out with rescue efforts in the name of national security. But he didn't. Until the screaming got too loud and the coverage on TV got too shrill. Only THEN did he move. For a president who prided himself on personal responsibility (you know, so unlike the last guy), Bush should could pass the buck when he needed to. - Steven Perez

Steve that is an excellent example of a state requesting help from a federal agency. What else ya got? - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

I love how Mark can hang on to this one little tiny detail like a bulldog in spite of the piles of big massive issues sitting all around it. Here's some debunking: http://www.snopes.com/katrina... - Jason Wehmhoener

Ugh. The vitriol on both sides needs to stop. Seems to me politicians are politicians first, party members second and US citizens dead last. Two sides, same coin, etc etc etc. - Jered Hofker

In any other country, you'd probably be right, Jered. - Steven Perez

While everyone is arguing about Katrina, I will have to say that FEMA appears to have learned from that disaster. I went through Ike last year and a tornado ripped down my street, we were blocked in by trees, down power lines and debris everywhere. FEMA was here waiting until it was safe to set up after the hurricane, the National Guard was here 3 or 4 hours after the hurricane blew... more... - Trish R

Thanks Trish, that's really the only point that matters. - Jason Wehmhoener

Mark: please see here for details http://www.sourcewatch.org/index... My favorite part "Brown also urged local fire and rescue departments outside Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi not to send trucks or emergency workers into disaster areas without an explicit request for help from state or local governments. Brown said it... more... - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

Perhaps the DMV would be a better example of what we could look forward to? - Alex Scrivener

Doubtful. That's a state agency. - Steven Perez

Again, Steve... You would support the violation of federal laws? Because that's what you seem to think should have happened. Or are you going to continue to ignore the fact that your arguement advocates illegal activities? - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

So you're saying that Eisenhower was wrong, Mark? - Steven Perez

Right and wrong have no place in a legal discussion, Steve :) - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

whaaa??? - Jason Wehmhoener

And while we're on the subject, let's be perfectly blunt about one thing: hurricanes along the Gulf Coast have been hitting with regularity for longer than this country has been here. It's commonly seen for a long time as the one thing that the federal government does well - disaster relief. And they dropped the ball badly, and because of that, a lot of people died who may not have had... more... - Steven Perez

And from where do laws come, except from a sense of right or wrong, Sean? - Steven Perez

Cuz I'll tell you who didn't think Eisenhower was wrong, Mark: the Supreme Court of the United States. - Steven Perez

Now... we can continue tomorrow: my battery is dying, my salad has arrived and Liz is looking exceptional. Have a wonderful evening! - MVB (Curmudgeon of FF) from fftogo

That's fine. Have fun. But Jindal is still an idiot. - Steven Perez

REALITY: Bumbling by top disaster-management officials fueled a perception of general inaction, one that was compounded by impassioned news anchors. In fact, the response to Hurricane Katrina was by far the largest--and fastest-rescue effort in U.S. history, with nearly 100,000 emergency personnel arriving on the scene within three days of the storm's landfall. http://www.popularmechanics.com/science... - Brian Newman from iPhone

And yet, it took FEMA five days to get water to the Superdome. - Steven Perez

Dozens of National Guard and Coast Guard helicopters flew rescue operations that first day--some just 2 hours after Katrina hit the coast. Hoistless Army helicopters improvised rescues, carefully hovering on rooftops to pick up survivors. On the ground, "guardsmen had to chop their way through, moving trees and recreating roadways," says Jack Harrison of the National Guard. By the end... more... - Brian Newman from iPhone

While the press focused on FEMA's shortcomings, this broad array of local, state and national responders pulled off an extraordinary success--especially given the huge area devastated by the storm. Computer simulations of a Katrina-strength hurricane had estimated a worst-case-scenario death toll of more than 60,000 people in Louisiana. The actual number was 1077 in that state. - Brian Newman from iPhone

14 April 2006: "WASHINGTON (CNN) -- After being roundly criticized in a slew of media, congressional and government reports, the Federal Emergency Management Agency's internal watchdog Friday returned its own verdict on the handling of Hurricane Katrina: The criticism against FEMA is largely deserved. In a hefty 218-page report, the Department of Homeland Security's inspector general... more... - Steven Perez

7 September 2005: "Katrina would have been devastating regardless, but those actions turned FEMA into something akin to New Orleans' famous levees — a structure sure to fail when a big disaster struck. Since Katrina, blame for FEMA's blundering has zeroed in on the agency's director, Michael Brown. His failure should not have been a surprise. He had almost no experience in disaster work... more... - Steven Perez

""Pursuant to a September 7 request by Representative John Conyers, Jr. to review the law and legal accountability relating to Federal action in response to Hurricane Katrina, the Congressional Research Service (CRS) issued a report [September 13, 2005] about whether the Governor of Louisiana took the necessary and timely steps needed to secure disaster relief from the federal... more... - Steven Perez

"WASHINGTON - In the months before Hurricane Katrina, President George W. Bush sought to cut a key program to help local governments raise their preparedness, and state officials warned of a "total lack of focus" on natural disasters by his homeland-security chief, documents show. The disclosures add to questions over the administration's emergency-response planning, Homeland Security... more... - Steven Perez

To get back to the main point, though, when people who fundamentally don't believe government can do any good run the government, surprise, the government can't, but this is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than evidence that they were right. - Andrew C

Bobby, why wasn't New Orleans and your state better prepared for a major hurricane? You're responsible for your state's infrastructure. How about the prisoners who were evacuated without their records and thrown into "safer" prisons, without regards for their offenses or personal security? - Bill Sodeman

Shevonne

Mayor in trouble for dressing up as a Nazi at fashion show - http://www.metro.co.uk/weird...

July 22 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

Jamelle, The Catz Meow and edythe liked this

A mayor has caused a storm for taking part in a fashion show dressed as a Nazi officer and wearing a swastika. - Shevonne

lol. what is wrong with him?! - edythe

not only that, he looks like a Nazi movie extra. - edythe

Randy Allen Bishop

Fwd: A new crop of kittehs — Cute Overload - http://cuteoverload.com/2009... (via http://friendfeed.com/minds...)

Fwd: A new crop of kittehs — Cute Overload - http://cuteoverload.com/2009/07/20/a-new-crop-of-kittehs/ (via http://ff.im/5vk0W)

July 21 - Comment - Like - Share

Bonnie Foster, Jamelle, FFing Enigma (aka Tina) and Wulffy liked this

edythe

Papy le Hérisson, Sieste dans la serviette bleue - on Flickr [hedgehog] - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

July 22 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Iain Baker, Steve C, Parth Awasthi and 6 other people liked this

:) - edythe from Bookmarklet

dans la serviette bleue... :) - edythe

x_x - Anna Haro

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