"Today we are launching version 2 of the FriendFeed API for beta testing. We focused on making the API simpler to use, and we added number of compelling new features." Documentation: http://friendfeed.com/api...
- Bret Taylor
from Bookmarklet
nice, good to see OAuth support, this will enable a larger 3rd party ecosphere around FriendFeed, I hope
- Jeroen De Miranda
After going through the documentation and playing around with some feeds, I love the fact that you can now see the subscriber lists of people who have their feeds set to private as long as you are subscribed to them and authenticate (mimicking the main site functionality). One thing that's absent is a discussion of Direct Messages. Do they show up in feeds if you authenticate? How do we find just direct messages?
- Mark Trapp
Mark: direct messages are accessed using the feed ID "filter/direct". Read more about feed IDs at http://friendfeed.com/api.... Also direct messages appear in the "home" feed.
- Benjamin Golub
Benjamin: ahhh, I see it now. I missed it when skimming that list over. Thanks!
- Mark Trapp
Can you post the wget version of the command line?
- Gabe
Gabe: wget --user=bgolub --password=passwd --post-file=MyPhoto.jpg http://friendfeed-api.com/v2... should work. In theory. Edit: nope. I'm not sure it's possible to do with wget.
- Mark Trapp
Gabe: wget doesn't support multipart forms as a design decision. If you post a file, FriendFeed returns a 404, and if you post data, the query is too long for wget to handle.
- Mark Trapp
Good work, look forward to seeing what developers can create
- Joe Dawson
Woowoo, bgolub's password is “passwd” ;-)
- Amit Patel
Amit: I wonder how many people tested that :)
- Benjamin Golub
Thanks to bgolub posting his password, I now have all of FriendFeed's secret documents about notorious users, useless metrics, Justin Timberlake's promoting FF on Oprah's show, hiring Colbert as a spokesperson, Ev Williams being just a “distraction”. TechCrunch is going to love this! ;)
- Amit Patel
Yes big big thanks to the whole team for all their hard work!!
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
from iPhone
Am I *that* transparent? :P :) That is a really cool image. I'll give it away... Micah guessed right. I had to use a new technique (new to the sketchbooks, anyway) to capture this image...
- Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
How about a CC (or other copyleft) license so we can use and cite this in presentations?
- Chris Lasher
I guess we now know where some of the Matrix style came from in real life, eh? @Curtiss: That old handle of yours sounds so cyberpunk that I'll probably have to use it as the title of a cyberpunk novel... ;)
- Dennis Jernberg
for me at first glace it looked like the MCP from maybe Tron 2
- Shawn McCollum
It looks like the birthplace of Skynet.
- TrafficBug
@Dennis - In case you weren't aware, the handle Crash Override is from the movie Hackers with Jonny Lee Miller, Matthew Lillard and Angelina Jolie (with Fisher Stevens as the evil corporate hacker and Penn Jillette in a small role as his assistant). Although much of it was ridiculous from a technology perspective, it was still a really fun movie with a fantastic soundtrack (the soundtrack itself actually has two sequels).
- DAMMIT, MR. NOODLE
@Curtiss Grymala - Hackers! great movie! the "Rainbow Books" HA!
- shayne catrett
won't the pubhubbubsubdubtublubzub guys be all like "Hey, screw RSSCloud, put our shit in instead!"?
- Mark
I don't think so. I think we all want realtime realtime. That would deprive us of realtime-ness and would be illogical and counter-productive and non-sensical. Could never happen.
- Dave Winer
Doesn't reader support Hubbub already anyway?
- Jalada
I hope they support both - regardless, it would be a huge win for real-time.
- Jesse Stay
I don't see it happening any time soon but it would be nice.
- Jason Williams
from iPhone
Welcome Baby Ryan!!! My baby Ryan (17 years!) and I are honored to welcome another superstar to our planet! Love, hugs, and lots of kisses to Baby Ryan, Mommy Maryam, Dad Robert and big brothers Milan & Patrick and of course Grandma!!! My guess on Ryan's arrival (predication) was only 23 hours off. I thought he would arrive on Friday, Sept. 18th at 11:45 pm. Love to all, Kelly & Ryan Kim
- Kelly S. Kim
What a moment, eh? I remember when my daughter came into this world, it was so exciting there were no words for it. Congrats on your wonderful baby boy!
- Michael J. Carrasquillo
Congratulations! Welcome to the world, Ryan. :-)
- Yvette Ferry
Congratulations Robert and Maryam! And welcome Ryan. If I was having a baby today, I'd begin a blog for him/her straight away as an online diary they could look back on when grown up.
- Technogran
الهــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــی چقده ناز نازیه.اینو فارسی نوشتم مریم جان بخونن ....راستی به باباش که نرفته:)) خوشگلتره:)) پس به شما رفته
- joupy
I was a c-section six week preemie in an era when that was seriously life-threatening, they didn't know if I would make for the first week. It always gets me a see a c-section / preemie come howling into the world. Welcome, little guy!
- Bob Morris (polizeros)
from iPhone
Beautiful baby! Congratulations daddy man :)
- Gary
:) Congrats Robert... best wishes to your family! Get her name in twitter and ff!
- Business Blogger 【ツ】™
Right ON! I am so happy for you. I have 4 kids of my own and they are my greatest joys. Take care and I hope all goes so smooth for him and mom.
- Robert Anderson
Daddy Scobleizer!!!!!!!!!! First things first....when will he be signed up for Twitter and FF?
- krystyl
Congrats! I wish a long and healthy life.
- Muammer Okumuş
Robert, you newest addition is too freaking adorable. I hope you and Maryam are doing well. Congratulations! Here's to a long, prosperous future!
- Mike Nayyar
congrats to you and Maryam! And welcome, RSS!
- Joshua Allen
from fftogo
Hi Folks! Today is my birthday, I'm 33! :) And I wanted to celebrate by releasing an idea -and an implementation of it- to the wild! It's Socnode: The basic unit of distributed social networks. http://www.socnode.org/
:) Really glad to have you arround, guys! Jorge, now your turn, man! ;-) Josh! That's *A* HONOR! Watashi wa? Hontoni honto? Arigato Josh san, and hey! Focus Daniel San! ALLWAYS LOOK EYE :) — Mille merçis, Laurent! :)
- directeur
Credit where credit is due: The blue O is an idea by Vijay no baka! The guy who knows how to insult me in japanese and who in return gets his fair share of insults too! Arigato, rokudenashi! :) — Oh and to see the thing in action, go to http://socnode2.appspot.com login with "beta" and password "123" share something and go to http://socnode.appspot.com to see it there too!
- directeur
Happy Birthday bro! :) Now you're an old man :p
- tunahan
Thanks Laura! Tunahan, thank you too! And Oh yes! I'm old, and old people don't send DMs to their turkish friends with a shamefull record of them singing in turkish :D
- directeur
Yes, Onur, for a good laugh that's really nice! :P Thanks anyway :) heh, you won't share it here right, right?? :))
- directeur
otanjoubi omedeto gozaimasu directeur :D btw the Matrix series that rocked the planet was inspired by Ghost in the Shell. Not only that, GITS talks about social media and memes 10 years ago. The anime we watch are far from the silly Powerpuff kiddie anime that people normally see as anime. Watch away directeur, I'm with you :D
- vijay
Happy birthday, Directeur!! Looking forward to checking out SocNode, thanks for sharing!
- Harold Cabezas
Thank you all folks! :) @Vijay: Totally! @Harold, please do! You can try the demo (links above) and check out the source code too! @Cristo: Happy birthady to you too! ;-)
- directeur
Happy birthday, glad to meet you and have you as a FF. Be happy allways, you deserve it.
- Céu de Buarque
Thank you, all! :) Jason, let's hope so! As I often said it in the Dango Daikazoku group, the idea here is really more important than my own django implementation of it -which actually is beautiful too! ;-)
- directeur
A belated happy birthday to you, Directeur. :)
- Brome
"It's been two years since Peter Berg confirmed he was attached to direct the third adaptation of Frank Herbert's seminal science fiction novel Dune. Of course, the first adaptation was auteur David Lynch's avant-garde, torpid 1984 film, the second being Sci Fi Channel'sminiseries in 2000. But little has been said about this third attempt to corral the story of Paul Atreides and his family amidst a futuristic feudal interstellar empire as they take control of the lone source of spice melange, the most valuable resource in the universe. It's no wonder Dune has proved a worthy foe when condensed into film form."
- Derrick
from Bookmarklet
Sure, the Dune universe is a rich, expansive environment, but what makes Dune, Dune is the interplay of the socio-economic, political struggles effecting the characters and the familial, localized emotional struggle of the main characters. Distilling the story into a base action/adventure story? It won't be a Dune that the purists will flock to, but it may, in reality, make a lot better...
more...
- Derrick
I've never seen Dune in any form, nor read the books. *ducks*
- Derrick
It might be heresy, but I wouldn't read past the second book (but I read them as a child, so that may not be fair)
- RAPatton
from iPhone
Derrick, Fatboy Slim's track "Weapon of Choice" is about Dune --> "if walk without rhythm, you won't attract the worm"
- RAPatton
from iPhone
I'll see it whether I'm apt to hate it or not. It's Dune, I can't help it.
- joey
The headline made me go "hmm... possibilities..." the reading of the article left me with "you're doing it wrong."
- Michael W. May
I've read the series in English and German. I am a dork.
- Katy S
I'm not much of a sci-fi fan to sit and read it, but if I was to watch it, should I start with the Lynch one? Or the mini-series? Robert, will that make sense to me after I watch the movie(s)?
- Derrick
At first glance the guy in front seemed like Will Ferrell :o Anyway, I'm willing to give this movie a chance :)
- Jemm
from fftogo
The David Lynch movie is definitely worth seeing. I haven't seen the miniseries.
- Jason Wehmhoener
Derrick, the Lynch version is much better (imo) in terms of a film, but the miniseries is much more faithful to the story. So it really depends. My advice would be to read the book (really, it's that good. It transcends genre) and then watch them both.
- joey
Yes, Derrick, the song will make sense after the movie/book
- RAPatton
from iPhone
I recommend everyone to read the first book. It's not that heavy on sci-fi and it tells a very elaborated, compelling and rich story. I saw the movie and the mini-series beforehand and both pale in comparison to the greatness of the novel. I can tell you to skip reading LOTR and watch the movies if you don't have time because both offer compelling experiences but in Dune's case the screen versions are bad enough that I thought Dune sucked until I read the book. Now it's one of my favorite books of ever.
- David Rodriguez
Dune is about empire, expansionism, marketplace monopoly, religion, duty and honour vs what is right and wrong, and revolution. The power struggles those entail. It happens to take place in a sci-fi-ish setting.
- Michael W. May
This was an editorial review from Amazon: "Dune is to science fiction what The Lord of the Rings is to fantasy. Though fans believed they had bid a sad farewell to the sand planet of Arrakis upon Herbert's death in 1986, his son Brian has assumed writing the Nebula and Hugo award-winning series with the help of Kevin J. Anderson. But the original is always the most popular, and Ace here...
more...
- Derrick
Derrick - I have a Dune remake you might be interested in ;)
- Sparky, lurking
Apparently, Sparky's sleeper has awakened.
- Steven Perez
The next time (first time?) you are in Seattle I'll show you the Dune remake I'm in :)
- Sparky, lurking
I've seen the movie, the two miniseries in italian and english and I've read all the books of Dune :) I love the world of Paul Muad'dib
- Ale♪nastrorosa
Alejandro Jodorowsky was going to make a version too, starring Salvador Dali who wanted $100,000 an hour! His version would of had music by Pink Floyd and art design by Giger and Moebius. Now THAT would have been interesting.
- Toby Graham
"At the time, psychologists assumed that children’s ability to wait depended on how badly they wanted the marshmallow. But it soon became obvious that every child craved the extra treat. What, then, determined self-control? Mischel’s conclusion, based on hundreds of hours of observation, was that the crucial skill was the “strategic allocation of attention.” Instead of getting obsessed with the marshmallow—the “hot stimulus”—the patient children distracted themselves by covering their eyes, pretending to play hide-and-seek underneath the desk, or singing songs from “Sesame Street.” Their desire wasn’t defeated—it was merely forgotten. “If you’re thinking about the marshmallow and how delicious it is, then you’re going to eat it,” Mischel says. “The key is to avoid thinking about it in the first place.” In adults, this skill is often referred to as metacognition, or thinking about thinking, and it’s what allows people to outsmart their shortcomings. (When Odysseus had himself tied to...
more...
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
This is an interesting quote because it implies that "will power" is more about mental strategy, not some kind of mental strength for forcing yourself to do something. I have the same strategy with food -- I eat whatever I see, so in order to not eat something I just need to put it out of sight.
- Paul Buchheit
effectively "out of sight, out of mind"
- alphaxion
This is where the magic of science is: you spend time and resources to prove a proverb.
- .i.m.a.r.s.o.r.a.m.a.
"The child who could wait fifteen minutes had an S.A.T. score that was, on average, two hundred and ten points higher than that of the kid who could wait only thirty seconds."
- J.D. Deutschendorf
Sometimes I worry my metacognition is slowing me down because I'm spending less time just cogniting. (that oughtta be a word.) But no, in all seriousness, I think something, then realize the thought was there before I subvocalized it, and then I go in a circle several times subvocalizing those same thoughts as I examine the process of thinking. Frustrating!
- Andrew C (✓)
Some friends and I refer to this study often, pointing out when we've failed the marshmallow test. Staying up late is my most common mashmallow test failure (sacrificing morning time to enjoy a few more bleary hours NOW), but it's easy to spot this sort of behavior and fun to have a standard vocabulary to highlight its ubiquity.
- Seth
As a parent, I consciously used this strategy to distract my children whenever they got in mischief, behaved badly or acted out. As a grandparent, I often send a box of tricks, things like super balls, an "uno" deck, paints, a book, a yoyo or top, for my daughter to use with my grandchildren when they are driving her crazy and need to think about something other than running around screaming.
- Phil Boiarski
OK, that makes sense, but let's flip this on its head - How do you instead keep your mind on something and prevent yourself from getting distracted? You can't distract yourself from your distractions. Andrew C, the word you're looking for is cogitating.
- Mr. Gunn
Mr Gunn, thanks. Though I think 'cogniting' is a touch funnier.
- Andrew C (✓)
Some chimpanzees use this strategy as well, though not all of them.
- Björn Brembs
i think bhudda had some theory on this too...:/
- Paul Moss
Today my 4yo daughter was having trouble waiting for a treat, so I told her (and my wife) about reading this article last night. I talked about the ability to distract - and I thought I was doing a pretty good job of explaining it in 4yo terms. When I was done with my paraphrase/lesson, I asked her if she understood. "Uh-huh," she said. Then after a few moments, she asked if we could stop and get some marshmallows on the way home. All I could do is laugh!
- Gary Walter (gwalter)
I read a different writeup of this experiment a couple years ago, when our daughter was about 1 year old. Its something that can be taught, and encouraged. She's now very good at distracting herself from something which she knows she shouldn't do or would get into trouble over. She's not easily distracted in general: she can focus quite well on something she wants to do (and is allowed to do).
- DGentry
Amazing! He tried one like that at Match point in the fourth set of the 2005 Australian Open final against Safin - it didn't work, and he went on to lose the match in the fifth set...
- Michael Nielsen
I only saw it because I tuned in for 60 Minutes early. Not really a tennis fan, but I can certainly appreciate that shot.
- Tom Landini
awesome match. I've seen federer put a few of these winners in before, so awesome.
- Art
I wonder what the engineering decision was to not use a WSGI interface.
- mikepk
mikepk: it supports WSGI, but it is not WSGI by default because WSGI does not support non-blocking I/O for things like hanging connections. See http://www.tornadoweb.org/documen....
- Bret Taylor
This actually is a very good piece of code! Thanks folks!
- directeur
cool, Bret, thanks :) I was just heading through the docs now.
- mikepk
Thanks for doing this, Bret! That's some pretty cool stuff.
- Keith Bourgoin
oh man, this is so awesome, thanks guys!
- Charles Ying
I'm hacking my own python web framework at the moment, so now the choice on whether I want to switch gears to this or not. I'm liking what I see so far.
- mikepk
Nice new title Brett.."Facebook Director of Products".. a good sign of things to come!
- Chris Myles
very very glad to hear this bit: "Tornado is a core piece of infrastructure that powers FriendFeed's real-time functionality, which we plan to actively maintain."
- Chris Heath
A very good project!...you know if will be possibile to use Tornado with other technogies except Python (such as JEE, Ruby On Rails, etc.)?
- Nicola Junior Vitto
Cristo: we tried to use the official Python coding conventions, though we may have inadvertently strayed. Those conventions are: ClassNames, method_names, variable_names
- Bret Taylor
Brilliant! I hope you can provide very valuable input for the next round of #python WSGI, which desperately needs a next round ;)
- Uche Ogbuji
thx Mike, but this is a kind of eventmachine (that sounds good) for Ruby, not a Tornado client or wrapper...isn't it?
- Nicola Junior Vitto
Excellent! Thank you. Was eagerly waiting for the day to come after looking this just 1 month ago; "changeset: 5afb8a445cad / date: 2009-08-11 16:34:48 / description: Initial open source packages" http://changelog.friendfeed.com/2009...
- NaHi
from m.ctor.org
Ohhh, ummm, btw, your underhanded behind the scenes sell out still rankles my human decency, & a lot of others too, as should yours...thumbs down/dislike x 47.5 million dollars, however not being bitter of course, keep ignorance & bliss
- sofarsoShawn ~presque...
that's the sound of I believe 100000000? or so hands clapping...& giving you the BOOOO-URNS if I'm not mistaken...
- sofarsoShawn ~presque...
oh you sonsabitchez this fscking rules! why so badass, ff? thank. you. :)
- mike
So, can we say; Python is the future?
- Özkan Altuner
Nice code. Started to look at it today. Thanks for doing this. Now to start testing this on some projects I had been working on.
- Altan Khendup
@bret just out of curiosity - what would necessitate usage of such an engine for a *personal* project? :)
- Michael Bravo
Michael: it is a nice framework to use for any project in my opinion (though I am clearly biased). If you are doing anything real-time like the chat demo, something like Tornado is certainly necessary/useful regardless of the size of the project.
- Bret Taylor
from email
@bret and for little-sized hardware? should have try it on Maemo based :)))
- A. T.
@silpol I kinda fail to see Maemo devices being used for servers (unless it's some kind of satellite-based or other covert server maybe :) )
- Michael Bravo
from IM
@mbravo you never know... there are some unusual (and cool) apps for web servers, granted you abstain (on purpose) from classical models, e.g.server farm somewhere there and herds of clients connecting to it...
- A. T.
I think this is the best answer for the ultimate question: "Does python needs yet another web framework?" While most of us would say why, when one come across this, a real world proven technology, serving zillions of pages a day, one would say, well, why not. actually, why not even take it an try to integrate out next web app with it? great job! seems like joining FB won't do you any harm ;-)
- Tzury Bar Yochay
No, any of them that are served under http 1.1. The notifications are sent to the IP address, not the hostname, so they will never reach a http 1.1 host.
- Nick Lothian
Wow... interesting discovery. I hadn't thought about this issue, but IP addresses definitely break virtual-hosted environments.
- Matt M (inactive)
Yeah. I was going to implement a rssCloud->PSHB proxy, but that killed it for me. Someone should also point out that rssCloud will really be in trouble in ~700 days when we exhaust all IPv4 addresses (http://ipv6.he.net/ - I'm assuming it won't work with IPv6 yet).
- Nick Lothian
IPv6 is *probably* safe in rssCloud. REMOTE_ADDR would return an IPv6 address, which would be used to construct the callback URL. Worst case, a handful of hubs would have to ensure they properly quote the remote address.
- Matt M (inactive)
Woha! Someone can explain to me why people at WP opted for this instead of PSHB? Seriously?
- directeur
Yeah, but I wonder how many people have coded it with a database with only enough space for an IPv4 address
- Nick Lothian
What was the rationale behind only using the IP address? That seems incredibly foolish: problems like these are why DNS exists.
- Mark Trapp
using the IP address sort of avoids a lot of issues with having to verify someone really wanted to subscribe to a notification
- Nick Lothian
+1 Mark. Nick, verifying that someone wanted to subscribe doesn't have to be that complicated. Challenge them.
- directeur
Oh, I'm not saying it's a _good_ way of verifying! Just that is why I suspect it was done like that. It's going to be hard to change it in a backwards compatible way. Adding a "host" parameter that must resolve to the same IP as the request comes from could get around the virtual hosting problem, but it won't solve a lot of other issues. Beyond that, it is going to need to add in some kind of challenge/response handling on the subscription.
- Nick Lothian
RSSCloud has a lot of flaws because it was created in 2001, used by one software company and then dropped a couple years later. If it is adopted as-is, there will be a lot of problems like this. But there's no reason not to learn from the last eight years. Dave Winer has already made changes for people using REST. He could change the IP requirement as well.
- Rogers Cadenhead
what method does tornado use to pull updates that it pushes realtime?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Wave is XMPP based... hence my earlier question RE how he'd tie XMPP into Tornado... where he sees the intergration points and overlap.
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd love to know when noreply and donotreply goes away from Facebook notification emails.
- Jay Cuthrell
Mochiweb (Erlang web framework) has some pretty easy to use support for long-polling too. Use it at http://replies.twitterfall.com for the streaming API there. I think Facebook use it for chat? (guess)
- Jalada
Agreed Steve.......This is now officially WAY over my head.... ;-)
- Mike Kelly
So, Bret... any plans for a near-term Tornado meetup?
- Ken Sheppardson
Has there been any discussion on any top line scaling metrics they are shooting for now? i.e. transcations per second, etc.
- Jay Cuthrell
Thursdays between 1 - 2pm SFO likes to fly jets over the NGL studios! We must have a talk about this
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Can anyone ask Bret if Friendfeed plans to open source more of their code. Would love to see how Friendfeed handles the aggregation of all the user feeds.
- arjo
Yeah I know about that, unless I'm mistaken it doesn't have the newsgang live from tue 09/08
- Michael Breslin
I've only been recording episodes of the Gillmor Gang so unless someone else has recorded NewGang you will have to wait until Steve puts it on YouTube
- Jack
Mike: That link is to the same file as in the bootleg feed
- Jack
The GDGT live coverage of the Apple rollout is proof that Twitter is not what's needed for the news system of the future. You need pictures, and instant updating, and it has to stay up under a heavy load. http://live.gdgt.com/2009...
True - between the various live sites and FF it's clear that real time is the only way. Can't wait to see the fruits of RSSCloud and PubSubHubbub.
- Rich
Rich: one solution is XMPP which uses XML, the language underlying RSS. there are more news options that work well in various situations
- Mike Chelen
Good work by the way on making the internet work! Seems you've had a hand in a fair few of the key technologies making things work…
- Rich
Yeah, XMPP seems promising as well - though it doesn't seem easy to use as a developer - never really worked out how to set up a server etc.
- Rich
Yeah, AppEngine is good with Java/Python parity. If I were integrating XMPP into an application, I'd choose AppEngine to host the XMPP part of things. It's very stable and takes a huge management load off your shoulders.
- Matt M (inactive)
I'll have a look at that - XMPP is on my list of things that I don't know enough about...
- Rich
This is with all due respect to both parties. I just want to come to a consensus. I like Brett. I like Brad. I like Dave Winer (we had a great time at the Mets game last month). I just don't understand why the two are working against each other.
- Jesse Stay
Why is Wordpress choosing rssCloud and not PSHB?
- Jesse Stay
Don't get me wrong - I completely support open protocols. I want to see both succeed, but why not work together to succeed?
- Jesse Stay
I don't think I speak just for myself on this - I'm confused.
- Jesse Stay
Reminds me of the time you wanted to know if Twitter would support OMB protocol. or not. :-)
- Brian Hendrickson
Brian, that's a little different though. I wasn't thinking RSS at the time - OMB doesn't work with RSS that I'm aware of. It's a valid competitor.
- Jesse Stay
But rssCloud and PSHB are hardly competitors with RSS. They both lie on top of it. I don't get the need to have 2.
- Jesse Stay
And why we're dividing the community. I've claimed it's a Google thing, but honestly, I don't know. Is this to go against Google? Is it an ownership thing? Let me know why I should get behind you. I'm not sure I know which one to support any more. I'm going to move to a more unbiased standpoint I think now. I was wrong to push one over the other yesterday in any way.
- Jesse Stay
Here's my summary of OMB vs rssCloud vs PubsubHubbub: OMB is fastest, PubsubHubbub scales the best and rssCloud is the most loosely coupled, in a good way.
- Brian Hendrickson
Maybe there isn't competition and I'm just perceiving it as such.
- Jesse Stay
I want to support them all, personally. :-)
- Jesse Stay
I think you'd have to go back and study the history of RSS vs Atom to see how we got where we are today.
- Ken Sheppardson
Do any of these three make a good Pushbutton-Web protocol until Google Wave is widely scalable?
- Brian Hendrickson
Ken, sounds like an awful mess to me. Why do we have to go through that again?
- Jesse Stay
My guess is that WordPress implemented it because rssCloud is a lot easier to implement than PSHB. Other PSHB plugins already exist for WP.
- Otto
Otto, yeah, that's my guess as well. Although they could have potentially used a third-party PSHB hub if they wanted (you can change hubs any time you want). PSHB is designed to push complexity and scalability into the hub. I don't think implementing one hub per blog is the right thing to do (which is basically what wordpress.org did - using the WP rssCloud plugin).
- Matt M (inactive)
Dave Winer would point out that rssCloud has been around since 2001. Pubsubhubbub point out that they do things rssCloud doesn't that they think is better (see PriorArt on their wiki) so fill in some gaps.
- Jalada
rssCloud was "around" since 2001, but only in tag form. The previous element used SOAP and XML-RPC and was poorly documented (AFAICT, this was the best reference: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss...). The REST interface to rssCloud (which makes it easy to implement), was only recently developed. Some interesting discussion on it from 2006: http://lists.apple.com/archive...
- Matt M (inactive)
This is just how stuff happens. A makes a thing. B makes a similar thing that is better. People discuss A vs. B. People end up using A + B. Eventually someone makes C, D, E and F if the original idea was good enough, but has room for improvement. I don't think we're done innovating in this space by a longshot.
- Jason Wehmhoener
rssCloud is a natural extension, done in about the simplest possible way. Simple usually wins, and I support it for that. It's decentralized, it's easy to support and work with, etc. However, it needs to be rapidly extended further to really pull ahead. The "cloud" is overly simple and needs to be extended to more than just "pings" before its really a competitor.
- Otto
BTW, I admit I hate the name Pubsub Hubbub, but that's all I hate about it.
- Jesse Stay
In a way Otto is right - PSHB was designed with the idea that hubs should be capable of rate-limiting requests. This makes any hub written from scratch more complicated if you want to do it right. rssCloud also has a significant amount of hidden complexity built into it, but it's *really* easy to develop a 90% solution. The WP rssCloud plugin is good, but there's going to be some serious scale issues with it once you have thousands of clients getting pings from it.
- Matt M (inactive)
rssCloud is simpler because the "cloud" is little more than a relay. Somebody subscribes, it adds them to a list. Somebody updates, it goes down the entire list sending their URL to everybody subscribed to that URL. Nothing to it. It doesn't have to do any kind of real work. The whole of it can be less than 80 lines of PHP code. PSHB on the other hand has this implicit idea that it will...
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- Otto
Otto - rssCloud actually has to check if the feed has changed (to prevent rogue pingers from spamming updates), so it's not entirely stateless. PSHB's state isn't much more complicated. Instead of storing a single hash for the whole RSS file, it stores a map of the last RSS item ids to their hashes. If it sees a new item, or an ID item whose item has changed, it sends that off to its...
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- Matt M (inactive)
I don't think it *has* to do so. It should, obviously. And Winer's implementation of rssCloud does indeed support storage and re-serving of the feed content itself (look for saveRss here: http://rsscloud.org/walkthr... ). So perhaps I'm really just talking about the current implementations I've seen.
- Otto
If you don't check that the feed has actually updated, you open yourself up to spamming all of your subscribed clients, who then thunderingly herd at the original site's RSS (assuming that they originally subscribed to the cloud from the original site's RSS' <cloud> element). There's no authentication on the ping request for external services for standalone rssCloud hubs. Note that...
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- Matt M (inactive)
If this is all working Dave Winer will see this post, via Twitter, in his RSS aggregator via the RSS Cloud. What does this mean? We will soon be able to build our own Twitters that interact with both Tweets as well as old-style blog posts via RSS. Oh, yeah, all in near real time. At most a minute between publish and reads. Right Dave?
- Robert Scoble
from email
By the way, the bridge is beautiful tonight and a good metaphor for what Dave is building: a bridge between Twitter and other things.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
I like this because I have faith in Dave, not because this paragraph was completely coherent.
- Jimminy IS Everybody
Jimminy: it took me more than a year to get RSS. Hopefully I can explain this better soon.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Robert, It's just the one sentence in the middle that I'm still trying to understand, I'm guessing you mean we can use our source to interact with Twitter and Blogs. I'm guessing this is posting to both locations. I still can't use Google Reader, it doesn't feel right to have to sit on a site to wait for feeds, my browser should update me when something new comes in.
- Jimminy IS Everybody
oops, I tried seeing mine. Access denied. :)
- motownmutt
Dave, you must tell me more. :-) How is this different than just subscribing to Scoble's Twitter feed RSS in your favorite reader? (PM me if I can try it)
- Jesse Stay
I have a client doing simultaneous video viewing and messaging in a viral, shareable platform now
- Karma Martell
Dave - very cool, so is this competing with Hubbub then? Robert, you can already create your own Twitter by publishing to your blog and subscribers getting updates via RSS. :-) This makes that stream real-time, which Twitter doesn't have.
- Jesse Stay
I wondered why I can't read my rss stream in twitter, other way round is possible but not functional.
- Michael Jung
from Android
J. deakins: I had no idea who he is. I've followed him now. Jesse: the thing that this opens up for me is real time RSS and the potential for building Twitters we control. The world feels a lot like 1993 right now. Apple controls mobile. Twitter controls microblogging. Sort of like AOL and Compuserve did. Then things changed in 1994, and I see this as a step toward that.
- Robert Scoble
I know that folks in business and media are all asking themselves why they are giving Twitter control over their brands and lives. Think about all the free advertising CNN has given Twitter this year. For what? So that we can take away their news brand. That seems monumentally stupid to me even though I'm benefiting from this stupidity on media's part big time.
- Robert Scoble
Holden: I think they should say "follow our Twitter at CNN.com/twitter" instead of at "twitter.com/CNN." Get it yet?
- Robert Scoble
totally unrelated but what were you doing up there tonight? it has been ridiculously beautiful lately.
- metalerik
Robert, the only thing different about it that I can see is that it's real-time. You've been able to create your own Twitter since 2000 (or whenever RSS came to be).
- Jesse Stay
metalerik: I picked my son up in Petaluma and are now driving home. Well, except now we're in an Apple store. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Dave, so the only advantage is that it pre-dates Hubbub? I'm just curious, constructively, what the advantages are.
- Jesse Stay
Robert, Twitter isn't real-time though
- Jesse Stay
Holden: it's more than an oversight. Of course, I have the same sins (I give my brand over to Twitter and FriendFeed and Posterous and Facebook). Maybe that's why I recognize that sin in others. :-) Of course I didn't have the world's #1 news brand and don't charge thousands of dollars per minute for advertising, which CNN is now giving away for free to Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
Robert - Apple store good. Getting home on time unlikely
- Arthur Coleman
i'm pretty sure i never lost my brand dude...
- Jeremy Toeman
Robert, when I post to my blog you get it immediately as well.
- Jesse Stay
i can't help but feel this is all about something relevant to the 0.000001% of people who *both* create AND consume a tremendous amount of content, not the majority of people who barely do either...
- Jeremy Toeman
Jesse: excellent. Now you'll get everything I do immediately. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Jeremy: true. Most people don't care, which is why most people use Facebook. But anyone who has a monetizeable content brand, like CNN, should care deeply.
- Robert Scoble
so you think CNN has "lost brand value" because they use twitter?
- Jeremy Toeman
super happy that robert is trying this out. i hope this makes RSS more interesting to you again :) these are good times. REDUX!
- sull
Need to play with this and think through it but I believe that several of our brands are going to be interested in this - thanks for sharing Robert, and thanks for continuing to push the boundaries Dave.
- Bill Sanders
Robert: Have a good weekend syncing Snow Leopard with Exchange - it's big new thing, I hear
- Arthur Coleman
BTW -- Robert has oversold here a bit. First, don't look to what I do with RSS next week, look to what others do with it. And it may not happen next week. That's why I, as an engineer, generally don't make promises like the one Robert made. Slippage happens all the time, the best laid plans of mice and men... http://wiki.answers.com/Q...
- Dave Winer
Does anyone - besides Dave and Scoble - still use RSS? I always wanted to love RSS, but I simply don't don't see the reason. It's a solution looking for a problem. Even without all the scalability problems - Twitter already delivers much more value than any other rss-based method ever did. I like the idea of a distributed microblogging system like Dave proposes for rssCloud, but don't think this will happen with RSS ever.
- gui ambros