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Question of the day: do you (or would you) take mind\brain enhancing prescription drugs? (provigil-ritalin and such) informal\ non scientific poll for a coming paper on Cognitive Enhancement

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No - Cynthia

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why not? if you knew the cognitive advantage it will give you with minimal or non-existent side effects? - Wildcat

oops, no thanks! :) fortunately I'm in good health and I don't believe in non-existent side effects - Not for now - maybe in my next life I'll take it - Cynthia

ahh! ok, but the question is not about health but about enhancement (the question presupposes that one is in good health) - Wildcat

Depends on side effects, can you be sure there will be none.... - Tristan Hambling

OK, but I do believe in not welcome side effects. - Cynthia

for the purpose of this non official poll assume little \inconsequential or non existent side effects - Wildcat

then you're trying to have only "yes" answers... - Cynthia

Cynthia, no, the point of the question (and the coming essay) concerns the ethical\moral questions of mind brain enhancement and their influence on our society- culture and the evolution of human civilization - Wildcat

OK. Now I got it. My personal answer still is NO, considering where, how, ... I live. I'm satisfied with my brain skills and I don't think I will became a genious. Maybe I recomend for other people (non sarcastic!) - Cynthia

About health (side-effects etc.): At this moment I'd only take them if it was really important to master some serious task. / Generally: Any time! - Reasons: My most important goal in life, my greatest desire is to harvest knowledge, learn and understand. I want to comprehend reality even if it means that who I am right now would cease to exist en route. I also think that civilisation... more... - Alexander Kruel

in general I think we agree, I wonder however concerning:"my greatest desire is to harvest knowledge, learn and understand" do you equate this with happiness ? - Wildcat

if there were not long term side effects... definitely, yes. - Anibal M. Astobiza

I would, but I would like to design them myself or in collaboration with others... I have been thinking more however of direct engineering / manipulation of endogenous cannabinoid and opiod systems utilizing implants or nano vectors of sorts... - pareidoliac

see the latest feed here : http://friendfeed.com/anibalm... - Wildcat

interesting point pareidoliac, given the means of production\design you would directly engineer your mind\brain to attain.. what exactly? a higher state of cognitive functionality? extended perception? cannnabinoids and opiates will definitely alter your state of mind, the questions is of course towards what direction? - Wildcat

@Wildcat What is happiness? I equate it with satisfaction. I'm not happy if I stop learning. I tried it several times. Too much effort I thought, just played games and doing other leisured activities. But dumb people bug me too much to stay uneducated myself. Something was missing, I wasn't happy. Then I realized something that is better expressed by somebody else, I think you've read it before: http://www.davideagleman.com/descent... (everybody should read this.) - Alexander Kruel

ahh! yes very good essay indeed and I concur it should be read by everyone.. however sliding down the ladder of evolution is irreversible..no, if all goes well, we will be able to metamorphose into whatever form of life we consider pertinent at the time of transition, if nothing else this could bring us into a larger understanding and empathy of all forms of life, currently inaccessible to us..that would give lots of happiness, I agree - Wildcat

btw : Nick Bostrom has one of the writings (pdf : http://www.nickbostrom.com/) on the subject, check it out : Cognitive enhancement takes many and diverse forms. Various methods of cognitive enhancement have implications for the near future. At the same time, these technologies raise a range of ethical issues. For example, they interact with notions of authenticity, the good life, and... more... - Wildcat

Actually, all we have do to is figure out how to overcome the first-person perspective. How to overcome subjectivity. Once we can share consciousness, we can learn what it means to 'be'. I don't think this is impossible. But the greatest intellect will be the meta-being that encompasses a wide range and variety of perspectives, maybe giving rise to a whole new level of understanding and valuation. I think consciousness is the merger of perception and comprehension. - Alexander Kruel

metabeing? global brain? AI+human? one mind? - Wildcat

this discussion always gets way ahead of itself. i think Cynthia makes a good point in that 'mind enhancing' drugs will always be idiosyncratic and messy, with some good effects and some bad effects and some plain weird effects and some effects which are specific to your particular brain and circumstance. talking about 'mind enhancement' in general is a bit silly and only transhumanists would arrange lectures on whether we should 'engineer away boredom' or some such fantasy. stay specific. - Christopher Harris

Yeah. Well, one mind, but that does not imply a loss of selfhood. As one being is adopted, you adopt all its desires on which its actions are based. The difference is the complete integration of this entities consciousness into the hive or hyperbeing/AI. As humans we think one-dimensional when it comes to goals. But what we do is also the result of a fight of different memes, or wishes... more... - Alexander Kruel

@Christopher Harris I ignored 'drugs' and just took general mind-enhancement as topic. All there is to say about drugs is obviously what you and Cynthia mentioned. - Alexander Kruel

@Alex yes, let's talk in even more abstract terms, that'll help. - Christopher Harris

I'm sorry, Christopher is right. Forget what I said. About drugs, I agree "that 'mind enhancing' drugs will always be idiosyncratic and messy, with some good effects and some bad effects and some plain weird effects and some effects which are specific to your particular brain and circumstance." - Alexander Kruel

Christopher, the reality of idiosyncrasy, concerning individual brains notwithstanding, the actual usage of prescription medicine such as Adderall, Ritalin and modafinil (Provigil) and the like for cognitive (some say recreational) enhancement is on the rise (especially among university and college students and prof), shouldn't the issue be taken more seriously? - Wildcat

again as published in Nature : Towards responsible use of cognitive-enhancing drugs by the healthy: http://www.nature.com/nature... - Wildcat

Absolutely. I just think talking about specific methods of enhancement makes more sense than talking about enhancement in general. That's an excellent paper btw, enjoyed it very much. - Christopher Harris

I think brain enhancement is really really important and I try to encourage debate about specific ways to do it. I also get very frustrated with the transhumanist tendency to shoot off into science-fiction at the slightest opportunity. - Christopher Harris

Definitely agree with you on this, the tendency to slide into tangential and non-productive discourse, takes away from the real issue at play here, namely practical and specific methods of cognitive enhancement, (Iodine\ salt is a quick reference) (this is a very good paper on the current state of affairs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... (though from 2008) - Wildcat

ooo, very interesting :) thx - Christopher Harris

Heh...these drugs would have been science-fiction not long ago! Anyway, you two should check out this article: http://www.newscientist.com/article... - I think that might be the most profound realistic enhancement we could arguably take into account here. - Alexander Kruel

Ritalin is horrible stuff. Modafinil was much better and just kept me together this time last year when I had chronic insomnia. I haven't taken it since, but would see no reason not to if I was ever in the same situation and needed that particular 'enhancement' to get through a week of work. - Daniel Swan

The real question is:'Is there some cognitive ability which you need but wouldn't be able to obtain naturally in the reasonable time, and if so, would you accept an extra help, if it's guaranteed there is no hidden catch'? Immortality/longevity might also be an alternative solution here, as well as the joined minds. It depends on the purpose. - Ashalynd from fftogo

Ashalynd, would you define 'naturally' in this context, pls? - Wildcat

No. Side effects - LANjackal

After all comments and a good night's sleep, my new oppinion: I should take those drugs if necessary, besides of side effects and all. By 'if necessary' I have a extent list. - Cynthia

@Cynthia Great, you just won a lot of brownie points :-) - Alexander Kruel

Alex , play nice.. :-) and Cynthia, care to enumerate the "necessary list" (remember that we do speak of enhancement, not of therapy) - Wildcat

@Wildcat Huh? I was absolutely serious. She just won a lot of esteem in my opinion. I'm not being sarcastic. - Alexander Kruel

Ok, no problem.. (I am not very fond of brownies..:-) - Wildcat

Cognitive enhancement may be defined as the amplification or extension of core capacities of the mind through improvement or augmentation of internal or external information processing systems. (Cognitive Enhancement: Methods, Ethics, Regulatory Challenges Nick Bostrom and Anders Sandberg) - Wildcat

So turning off sleep doesn't count? After all it gives you a lot more time. What about the use of psychedelic drugs in art? I understand cognitive enhancement using prescription drugs as applied chemistry. - Alexander Kruel

interesting thread; to answer your original question: yes, i would try them (brain-enhancing drugs) because it's the only way i could truly assess their value (and side-effects). - james reilly

@james reilly hah...the problem with everything that has to do with your brain is that once you mess up, there's sometimes no way back. - Alexander Kruel

Normann & Berger article: "So far, all clinical trials of neuroenhancing drugs have either failed or demonstrated only very limited efficacy." I might be interested to test these if there were clear indications that it works. Till then, I think I'll stick to nicotine :-) - François Dongier

@Alex - I wasn't planning to take them if there was a risk of irreversible brain damage! (not yet anyway, and the upside would have to be really worth it:, lol, :-) Whatever the personal ethics involved, there is the greater, ethical need for harmonising relations between and within human societies and also their relations to the planet. Maybe we're just not smart enough yet. Neuro-enhancement may yield (and maybe not) new ways of thinking about and transcending these problems. It's worth exploring, anyway. - james reilly

@james reilly What I had in mind are drugs that cause personality change, especially alter your will, rather than 'brain damage'. - Alexander Kruel

@Wildcat - "naturally" means using brainpower without external stimulants (like growing muscles via exercise). a vague definition though. - Ashalynd

To me, messing with drugs looks a little bit like hacking around when you can't access the system codes and try to find the backdoors into it anyway... is it really the only approach we have?.. - Ashalynd

see this highly correlated article "Changing our minds"( http://spacecollective.org/Spacewe... ) I have connected this thread of comments to the article. - Wildcat

Alexander Kruel

The Brain Is Far More Complex Than Believed - http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/2009...

23 hours ago from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"We have been bombarded with predictions that human-level artificial intelligence will be developed "within ten years." These predictions inevitably come from persons with a computer science, engineering, or artificial intelligence background. Such prognosticators understand algorithms and / or electrical circuits, but do they understand how consciousness is created? Do they comprehend the basis for the only human-level intelligence that exists: the human brain? Clearly not. This respected Harvard team of neuroscientists has its hands full studying a nematode nerve network of 4 measly neurons! They are hoping to expand their study to include more than 4 neurons soon. Meanwhile, there is the problem of "The Other Brain", the glial network." - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

Myrna to Myrna's feed, Illustration, ART ROOMََََ

A Journey Round My Skull - http://ajourneyroundmyskull.blogspot.com/

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Tristan Hambling, james reilly, Kamala Whitaker and 3 other people liked this

Christopher Harris

having to resist writing a blog post about free will, how ironic

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As you said the other day, it's not science. Or do you have a philosophy blog? - Alexander Kruel

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My blog is a little bit of everything but nevermind, the point is that free will IS entering the scientific language. It's not the free will we're used to (it's not necessarily conscious, it's fully brain based etc) but it's certainly getting in: on the brain science podcast just the other day they embraced it, and a paper I read this weekend is full of intentional concepts despite... more... - Christopher Harris

Yeah, it IS entering the scientific language. But wait, it's not what you think it is. It's really banana juice. Sorry people for the deception. Well, I'm not going to read it. Up next: the reintroduction of evil into the legal system. Again, not what you think, it's just free people doing bad things. Phew... - Alexander Kruel

I think I know why you're so adamant about this. I was raised Christian too and the stress of spending many young years realizing how much of what I'd been told was false and irrational still to this day predisposes me to attack anything that smells like scientifically naive, wishful thinking. Free will used to be a prime target of this anger and frustration as late as a few years ago.... more... - Christopher Harris

Seriously, scientists are also just humans. I've been amazed lately of how dumb educated people can be. Ever heard of Nassim Taleb? What a crank. Anyway, it's really sad to hear this. Free will is the creationism of neuroscience. And if it's true what you're saying, then woo is winning in that field. It's also not ignorance not to read some mathematical musings you may provide underpinning your notion of free will. I don't do it for the same reasons that I don't read papers by Jehovah's Witnesses. - Alexander Kruel

It's not just religious opposition. I'm saying the same when it comes to all the bullshit about consciousness. Or take Roger Penrose, I'd tell him he's making up bs there any time. It's dancing around rainbows end. You don't need expertise for this stuff. It's just flawed reasoning. An oxymoron. Of course, that there is something rather than nothing is a problem that also conflicts with... more... - Alexander Kruel

Well, sometimes there ARE reasons to assume things. For instance we don't know that other people are conscious but the way they talk and act make us assume they are. With recent advances in brain imaging we're starting to be able to distinguish conscious from unconscious brain states which gives us more reason to assume other people are conscious, even though the evidence is not... more... - Christopher Harris

What I meant about bs regarding consciousness is the opinion of some that we cannot tackle this concept with science. The sacrosanct of subjectivity and the first-person perspective. I've written something on topic here: http://friendfeed.com/minds... - Alexander Kruel

"If I cut my throat I may disover that I was dreaming or that I have been playing some advanced virtual reality game all along. Everything is possible. But right now there are safer and more promising options of gaining knowledge. How can I be sure? I can't, but there is evidence which proved to be reliable so far. I have to suspect that it will continue to be reliable based on... more... - Alexander Kruel

Assume free will? No reason. It's a concept that should at best be examined by psychology or the social sciences. It's a cultural idea. - Alexander Kruel

Hey don't despair about free will being studied by scientists, consider this: Even if science truly incorporates free will, such that there are centers for The Neuroscientific Study of Free Will popping up everywhere the way they do around consciousness studies at the moment, then we may still get to a point were we understand the operation of free will in human brains so thoroughly as to be able to predict free decisions. At that point science will truly have killed any traditional notions of free will. - Christopher Harris

I don't despair. I'm just worried about the underlying reasons people have to introduce it in the first place. Suspicious. And it may slow down discovery. It highlights a fundamental error in reasoning in that field. That is bad. At the very least, it will always act as a semantic obfuscation for calling randomness, unpredictability and spontaneous behaviour 'free will' when there obviously exist other, more descriptive terms. - Alexander Kruel

blah..."for calling" not not ;-) - Alexander Kruel

We can't know whether there "obviously exist other, more descriptive terms" until we know more about the phenomenon we're naming. 'Random' doesn't cut it, that was the point of Brembs' 2008 paper. 'Spontaneous' doesn't cut it because behaviour is spontaneous even in disease states where autonomous agency is impaired. This is why I want to write a blog post, to list the similarities and... more... - Christopher Harris

Well, nobody can stake a claim to natural language. If you actually want to create your own definition of 'free will', I'll refer to "'free will' as defined by Harris" (or "Free Harris") thenceforward. But what do you say isn't 'cutting it'? What phenomenon? I know that randomness is poriferous. Spontaneous is fatuitous. I commited the mistake to name those terms for the ease of not... more... - Alexander Kruel

Oh no no, I've gone along with trying to articulate and defend the new free will here but I haven't yet decided what I really think about it and it's certainly not my idea. - Christopher Harris

The phenomenon is the generation of will and behaviour by nervous systems - Christopher Harris

I think you're confusing a naive mind over matter attitude with a dynamical systems attitude where emergent properties are important - Christopher Harris

Just forget what I said. Was maybe all bs. A blog post on emergent properties would be cool. Sorry. Thanks. - Alexander Kruel

I think you should write a blog post about free will after all. I'd like you to unravel the following points: 1. To what does the word 'free' in 'free will' apply? 2. What would be the difference between a being (i.e. fruit fly) which posses free will and one that doesn't? 3. Does free will apply to a certain entity or behavior? 4. Is there a borderline between free and not free? 5. How... more... - Alexander Kruel

well I'll have to so something, just got this comment on my 'What is dopamine?' video: "i love this video. i too think that we're just one big chemical machine with no free will. just the playing out of molecules in a bigger scale." - Christopher Harris

those are good questions though, hope I can address some of them when i'm done reading (still going through the papers Bjorn Brems recommended.. this Vladimir Brezina guy is vicious on the maths, hard to keep up) - Christopher Harris

Well, that's completely obvious to me since I first thought about it when being much younger. That's why I'm commenting here and elsewhere. Out of sheer incredulity that anybody in his right mind could contemplate about free will for long. I don't want to be derogatory here. I could be wrong, I could suffer some neurological deficit. As I said above, I can't wrap my mind around the... more... - Alexander Kruel

And about math, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

You can show all kind of stuff with math. Just take string theory. If you want to prove 'free will' with math, simple answer: 'Not even wrong' - Alexander Kruel

On the other hand: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/margina... - That would rock, I'd love that to be the case. - Alexander Kruel

I don't actually care about the philosophical/semantic arguments around free will all that much. what matters to me are the cases where free will most obviously breaks down. how can we learn to control ourselves better? that's my real concern. - Christopher Harris

Where 'free will' breaks down is really when volition breaks down. Anyway, self-control is the enemy of diversity. I'm here, doing this for a lack of control. If I had enough control I'd still be religious today, ignoring everything that might shatter my desire to believe. -- Always reminds of this quote: “If we could deliberately seize control of our pleasure systems, we could... more... - Alexander Kruel

This is just in: When Situations Not Personality Dictate Our Behaviour - http://www.spring.org.uk/2009... "Contrary to our instincts, however, studies such as this one demonstrate that it is frequently the situation that controls our actions more strongly than personality." - Alexander Kruel

Full list of publications by Vladimir Brezina http://146.203.52.26/Neurosc... - Alexander Kruel

That's something for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

Just Exactly What Is Determinism? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Forget free will and get on with empirical psychology. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Free will is not a question for science. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... - Alexander Kruel

Good question: "The will is thought to be free if a person manages to overcome a short-term temptation for the sake of a greater, but later, value. Self-regulation raises a final asymmetry. Suppose you have a choice between slapping a misbehaving child and patiently discussing her behavior. Will you get free-will credit only for patient self-regulation?" - Alexander Kruel

How would one differentiate between a system with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher: What's 'genuine' free will? The last serious thinkers to take dualism seriously probably were Popper and Eccles in the 1970s. Since then, dualism has been dead. I don't see any professional neuroscientist claiming that anything other than the brain is everything we are, as people, identities, self. So apart from a ghost in our heads, what's 'genuine' free will? - Björn Brembs

@Christopher You'd better ask him if a fruit fly without spontaneous variations in its behavior would be in any meaningful way different, from one which possess a spontaneous variation generator, regarding the notion of free will. To me it is a laughable resurrection of a obsolete concept by twisting its meaning beyond recognition. In other words, a "free will of the gaps" approach.... more... - Alexander Kruel

By the way, Brembs' paper is very good and important work. Something I admire. I'm just calling bullshit on its interpretation. Just so that is clear, some people are easily upset :-) - Alexander Kruel

The brain as system that 'transforms sensory input into motor output' is a working defintion but has nothing to do with the reality of physical interactions. It cannot be used to call willful action free contrary to deliberate acts that are purely deterministic. In no meaningful way, regarding the concept of free will, are internal interactions within a brain different from interactions... more... - Alexander Kruel

Possibility and Could-ness http://lesswrong.com/lw... - "The statement, "I could jump off the cliff, if I chose to" is entirely compatible with "It is physically impossible that I will jump off that cliff". It need only be physically impossible for you to choose to jump off a cliff - not physically impossible for any simple reason, perhaps, just a complex fact about what your brain will and will not choose." - Alexander Kruel

Didn't know about this: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

One of the easiest hard questions, as millennia-old philosophical dilemmas go. Though this impossible question is fully and completely dissolved on Less Wrong... http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

@Christopher many chaotic systems in nature (e.g. the weather) are deterministic systems whose future states cannot (as far as we know) be predicted/calculated short of running the system, but we don't think of them as having will; we don't think of them as agents. even a willful agent might not be considered capable of free will however if his/her/its will expresses itself merely as... more... - Christopher Harris

@Alex "The notion of free will has a lot to do with choice and control, neither of which can be used to describe how your brain processes its decisions." This is simply incorrect: choice and control are the subjects of countless rigorous investigations, the terms are used in the neuroscientific litterature every day. Stop saying these things cannot be studied scientifically, they can,... more... - Christopher Harris

OK, Christopher, let me rephrase that: How would one differentiate between a brain with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic brain whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system? - Christopher A Carr

Björn: Indeed. So why is the term "free-will" used? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher (awesome name by the way) I'm not sure what you mean by "genuine", people have always struggled with the definiotion of free will, from Hume's compatibilism to Kant's transcendental freedom. I'm interested in this new intepretation of free will because it may finally give us something more solid to work with, something I can study in the lab and do statistics on. I think... more... - Christopher Harris

I only use the term "genuine" (and in quotes) to note that one can't tell the difference between the two cases I offered, at least as I understand the meaning of "free-will." I guess I'm with Alex in not comprehending why you bother with the term at all. - Christopher A Carr

What is your definition of Free Will, Christopher A. Carr? Apart from any philosopher's interpretation, what do you say it is or rather, what would you like it to be? - Melanie Reed

Melanie: You would be the only one in the thread now to define it as that thing which is beamed into heads by Yahweh, the Semitic mountain deity. Your inclusion in the discussion can only effect a hijacking of the thread. - Christopher A Carr

That is not for you to judge. I asked a question. It is pertinent to the subject matter. It is your choice (free will) to answer it. - Melanie Reed

Christopher, my reason for considering using that term is that most people have an experience of free will, and it may be that the process underlying that experience is very interesting and important. I'd like to understand the workings of that process in a small neural network and maybe one day reproduce it computationally. Also, people stress about free will with regards to the iPlant and dopamine in general, so this re-intepretation may be fruitful to that side of what I do too. - Christopher Harris

Melanie: Actually, I think it would have to be accounted for by some metaphysical woo-woo along those lines, which is why I think it's nonsense. Were we to talk about the subject, it would devolve into the omniscient creator, pre-determination/self-determination paradox, which is not the subject of this thread. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: How would the subjective experience differ between those two options I offered? - Christopher A Carr

Thou mayest, Christopher. Not a microbe. Not quark. Thou. - Melanie Reed

Christopher Carr: I think you're right, you can't really tell if we actually have free will, or if it's just an illusion due to the underlying mechanisms of consciousness. But, the sensation of free-will--the feeling that we have to make choices--is surely something we've all experienced, and if it's something we experience, then the underlying mechanisms can be elucidated. - Victor Ganata

Victor: I agree. I'm all for the study of neural correlates of the sensation of free-will, or however you might want to phrase that... - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: "Thou" is a second person singular pronoun. So? Appealing to those texts you worship cuts no ice with me. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: It comes from a very famous quote out of John Steinbeck's novel East of Eden. The main character of the Chinese Housekeeper, Lee, who despite his position is a meticulous researcher of language. He explains to Cal at the end the fruit of his lifetime research which covers the main theme of Steinbeck's novel: Choice: “Don’t you see? . . . The American Standard translation... more... - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Is any of that supposed to constitute evidence of anything? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Prove to me that you love someone. Show me some evidence. - Melanie Reed

Yeah, I saw _Contact_ too. - Eph Zero

Melanie: In fact -- and Christopher H could speak to this -- I bet it's possible to recognize romantic love in patterns of activity shown via fMRI. - Christopher A Carr

Ah, I get it now. The discussion regarding the existence of free will is just another insult to you, Melanie. It took me a few minutes to understand your presence in this thread. - Eivind

Christopher: How then did people recognize love before there was MRI? How could they be sure? There was no evidence, if evidence is only obtained from technology. Can you name anything that is self-evident? - Melanie Reed

Not at all, Elvind. I just want to make sure you have been given the opportunity to consider all the evidence. We can become "prisoners of one idea." The concept of Free Will was not originated from the scientific field. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Having a sense of self doesn't mean that the brain is not a deterministic system. ...as to your reply to Eivind, since when are you concerned with "evidence?" - Christopher A Carr

"We hold these truths to be self-evident..." - Melanie Reed

Melanie: I suggest that if you would like to contribute to this thread, go back through and read it all in order to understand what it is that's being discussed. If you would like to talk about something else, feel free to start your own thread. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, If you want to study something that did not come from your field, I agree with the originator of this thread that it is helpful to listen to those who espouse what you are trying to gain knowledge about. There is a connective tissue, indeed, a fabric that is essential to your pursuit. - Melanie Reed

If someone said they loved me but didn't show me "evidence" of such (e.g., treating me well, showing affection, etc.), the word itself would be meaningless. In fact, it's a very vague term to begin with. What exactly do you mean by it, anyway? - Eph Zero

Wait, no need to answer that and go further off-topic. - Eph Zero

Determinism in the fundamental sense has ceased to be a viable concept with the discovery of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Determinism in the sense of predictability has ceased to be a viable concept since our understanding of deterministic chaos started happening. Dualism (aka 'genuine' free will, magic-man-done-it, or ghost in my head) has ceased to be a viable concept since... more... - Björn Brembs

Our sense of free will, the personal experience of it - much of this is usually referred to as agency - is an entirely different matter, although there is some tentative evidence that the brain functions subserving both may overlap. - Björn Brembs

@Christopher Harris You are incorrect. You don't control how you think or when you are thinking. I don't know how you understood what I said, but it's a simple fact backed by such rigorous proves as Gödel's incompleteness theorems. - Alexander Kruel

Brembs doesn't get that just by adding complexity and uncertainty you do not verify freedom :-( - Alexander Kruel

As I said above (nobody replied), endogenous processes generating behavioral variability and thus non-linearity are working-definitions. This has nothing to do with the overall physical reality of causal chains. At no point the freedom of a system, in itself or from the environment in which it is embedded, can be derived from any conclusion that was attained in reference to that... more... - Alexander Kruel

I might have to clarify what exactly I mean by 'working definitions'. Every system and its boundaries are arbitrary or biased definitions. You can extent the variables of any open system beyond its defined boundaries. Thus it is just unreasonable to talk about freedom in open systems. Endogenous actions are ultimately depend on outside factors. And talking about the freedom of a closed... more... - Alexander Kruel

Christopher: I don't know how to discuss that difference if by "genuine" free will you mean a dualistic, magical power endowed to the souls of men by God Almighty. Like Bjorn said, no scientist would argue for the kind of dualistic, supracausal free will you and Alex seem to be refering to. If however you're asking about the subjective difference between a person with free will and a... more... - Christopher Harris

As regards abulia, free-will is merely the ability to initiate a behavior? Free-will is that which exist in agents who aren't suffering from particular sorts of DDM? - Christopher A Carr

Aboulia is characterized by a lack of will, not a lack of free will. And it is not an ability to 'initiate' action. This would imply that you perceive your ability to 'initiate' action but not the initiative itself, which would mean that your thoughts are perceived as non-actions. That's where the free in free will collides with reality. We do not perceive freedom of choice, we think about options on an intellectual level and confuse ability with possiblity. - Alexander Kruel

Christopher: Something like that. Patrick Haggardd writes an excellent review of the distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... and then there's the controlled variability, the adaptivity, the intentionality and the relative independence from environmental stimuli. - Christopher Harris

What is it that does possess free will then, the entity or the 'distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour'? That's exactly the point, relative independence from the environment is as good as no independence when it comes to freedom. It ignores the fact that we are part of the environment, an environment that includes other supposedly free agents that are... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alex: no one here argues for a free will that implies that things 'could have been otherwise' or that the causal chain stretching back to the Big Bang can be subverted. the claim here is simply that the processes by which the brain makes different decisions in the same situation can be thought of as free will. - Christopher Harris

Making different decisions in similar situations is the difference between 'mechanical' and intelligent systems. It is the difference between static systems and the flexibility of adaptive systems due to feedback and learning that allows for situational variability. I argue that it is not reasonable to use free will to describe anything physical as long as you are not willing to... more... - Alexander Kruel

Given that the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is a valid interpretation of reality, I don't think the idea of choice has been completely ruled out. The equations really do allow other events than what have already occurred. But I also realize this doesn't necessarily require free-will either. - Victor Ganata

"This universe is constantly splitting into a stupendous number of branches, all resulting from the measurementlike interactions between its myriads of components. Moreover, every quantum transition taking place on every star, in every galaxy, in every corner of the universe is splitting our local world into myriads of copies of itself." (Bryce De Witt, 1970) - Alexander Kruel

Even if that was the case. "Doing everything", or a Permutation City approach, does not account for free will. Although I guess we'll be a bit closer to something you could call freedom... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

@cristophder carr; if we grant for a moment that it is not possible to distinguish between a system with 'genuine' free will and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system, why is making the difference important? If suppose that subjectively we cannot conclude either way, that is no proof in support of wither way too. So that... more... - Sandeep Gautam

@Alexender human or animal agents that are believed to have free will are not closed systems. all living beings are open systems and thus by your own admission can be free and have free will. Free will is important when thinking about agents and living things and a whole theory of mind or folk psychology module that is different from mechansistic or folk physics module has evolved in... more... - Sandeep Gautam

"Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all; but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will, moreover will that is not tightly constrained, but relatively free and endowing with choice and control." +++ Sandeep Gautam This is a closer explication of what can be stated from other disciplines, if you will, couched in terms other than scientific ones, yet saying the same thing. In these areas it takes cross-discipline understanding, - Melanie Reed

For example take Sandeep's first posit: "Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all;" keeping in mind the following statement allows for the exception to it "..but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will,.." This is exactly what this statement is referring to: "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose [will] that prevails." Proverbs 19:21 It allows for what Sandeep's possiblity has hit upon: a lesser will within a larger context. - Melanie Reed

@Sandeep Gautam: Huh? When have I said that? I said it doesn't matter, either way there is no free will. - Alexander Kruel

Is there no concept that a greater will can set up deterministic systems (for safety purposes) that allow for the fluidity of lesser free wills in which to act? - Melanie Reed

You're not going to get a hearing here for your "Yahweh did it" hypothesis, Melanie. - Christopher A Carr

Then with all due respect to you Christopher, you're not being very scientific. You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it. There is a danger in not allowing for thinking and possibilities that are beyond our measure of intelligence. We will go round in circles or continue to arrive at imperfect destinations. A good scientist listens and is open to possibilities. - Melanie Reed

@Melanie Reed: Sandeep Gautam already made that point, sadly it's false. Read up on falsifiability and Occam's razor. Maybe some Wittgenstein would be good too. - Alexander Kruel

To take the analogy with open systems further, everyone knows the second law of thermodynamics that the entropy increases as time flies theorem; but that is applicable to closed systems. One cannot argue that open systems like living beings would not exist that sort of defy the entropy principle (move towards more organization) as long as they live. Living beings , that are open... more... - Sandeep Gautam

"You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it." That is not at all correct. I can't disprove that free-will derives from an invisible pixie dust-farting homunculus in my head. Supernatural explanations are methodologically excluded... - Christopher A Carr

Alex: In Melanie's case, entertaining contrary beliefs is a slippery slope to a firey pit. ...it's the genius of the memeplex. - Christopher A Carr

@xixidiu @cristopher that is what Melaine is saying that if you cannot prove it , allow it; that is not my position. My position is that given two non-falsifiable/non-provable alternatives, believe in one that is good for everyone. - Sandeep Gautam

One can't (at least I can't) simply choose to believe the more implausible of two explanations. - Christopher A Carr

@crsitopher you are on slippery grounds here...to most of people free will is intuitive and not implausible...of course intuitiveness and folk concepts doesn't count as scientific proof,; but it is pertinent to what is plausible to believe and what is not. - Sandeep Gautam

At any rate, Christopher H's definition of free-will just sounds like "intelligence" to me. I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage. @Sandeep From whence derives this "freedom?" I can't figure that out, hence it seems implausible. - Christopher A Carr

No Christopher. I started not believing. I simply arrived (and I did not get there by one dull and morbid route) at the discovery that there was no other alternative. "I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage", Because Christopher, you are more than what you think you are. Connect the dots. They are there. - Melanie Reed

well freedom from immediate environmental influences or past learning history. room for behavior variability (bot operant behavior and conditioned behavior) - Sandeep Gautam

All interpretations of quantum mechanics describe an indeterministic universe, though. Again, this doesn't prove free-will, but arguing for a deterministic universe defies our current understanding of reality. - Victor Ganata

Victor: You aren't suggesting that the brain taps into that foundational indeterminacy via quantum computing in the microtubules? :-) - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: You're the only one here who is trying to talk about Jesus. And just making vague assertions ("you are more than what you think you are"..."connect the dots...they are there") is not even remotely persuasive. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: heh, I'll leave that to a certain renowned physicist to argue. But once you remove determinism from the discussion, I think it does become useful to examine the phenomenon of free-will. Sure, it's not the same thing as what we intuit free-will to be, and it doesn't meet the classical philosophical definitions, but there's still something there to study. - Victor Ganata

Christopher, I wasn't hoping that you would make the connection today. ;) First, the anger must go. But I think one day you will. And on that day, the click of machinery will be one of relief. - Melanie Reed

Victor: I can think of one renowned physicist/cosmologist who argues persuasively against the possibility, or perhaps that's what you meant. - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: People with agendas as constant as yours are not pleasant people to interact with, particularly when the agenda is to infect others with a memeplex as nasty as Christianity. You might as well be chasing me around with a syringe full of smallpox. - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: What do you think I'm angry at? - Christopher A Carr

I think the term "free-will" is nothing more than short-hand for an ill-defined phenomenon that we all have some vague intuition about, but which appears distinct from sentience, and perhaps even from consciousness. I think it's unnecessarily confusing to just fold it into other neurological phenomenon. As Christopher H points out, the phenomenon of volition is something that has... more... - Victor Ganata

And what of the evidence for the preparation of decisions prior to one becoming conscious of the decision? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher yea this new free will isn't necessarily conscious, big change from the traditional version - Christopher Harris

@cristopher I concur, the new free will need not be conscious; it can , and most probably is to a large extent unconscious. - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher, I have no agenda where you (or anyone else) are/is concerned that is in the least bit as violent as your metaphor proposes. :) Quite the opposite. It is and will always be your choice to act upon it or not. I am not a virus nor is what I am telling you a virus or memplex. Indeed, if you want to pursue that thinking, you might as well turn it around and ask yourself if... more... - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Pascal's wager is bullshit. - Christopher A Carr

Consciousness seems to me a necessary condition. Without it, what does the "free" mean in "free-will?" - Christopher A Carr

I don't think the evidence that some decisions are made before your consciousness perceives them necessarily precludes free-will, though. I'd like to see them test other scenarios other than just giving a volunteer an instruction, and watching how the brain processes that instruction. - Victor Ganata

If we're thinking of the same study, it just shows that there's a lot of unconscious activity when an instruction from another person gets processed by your brain. There's no indication that the consciousness can or can't override the unconscious activity. That leaves room for another experiment. - Victor Ganata

@christopher I have already answered that. freedom from immediacy. freedom from histrory - Sandeep Gautam

After all, it at least appears we can temporarily override certain otherwise involuntary functions of the body. - Victor Ganata

Would a p-zombie have free will? - Christopher A Carr

yes, if it (p-zombie) was acting as an agent showing behavioral flexibility and variability, our minds would model it as an agent and grant it free will . It might not be conscious but is both willful and without being sentient free in the sense that its unconscious could still have chosen otherwise - Sandeep Gautam

Sandeep: Wait, one's theory of mind bequeaths to other ostensible agents free-will? - Christopher A Carr

to elaborate on p-zombie, supposing that intoxication (inhaling alcohol) makes you a p-zombie momentarily, you would still be held accountable in thtis real world as the prior decision to take alcohol was perhaps mistaken and lead to the outcome. To use analogy of Jon Haidt, if you train your unconscious (elephant) incorrectly your conscious (the rider/trainer / mahout) is also equally... more... - Sandeep Gautam

People on a black-out drunk have free-will? - Christopher A Carr

not on a black out, but supposing that their conscious is overtaken by unconscious and they cannot remember what they are doing, law and I would still hold them accountable and having free will (as they had freely decided to enter into that state) - Sandeep Gautam

Legality is a separate issue. - Christopher A Carr

to take further the case of drunkenness, a drunken person does not just react, he/.she acts by loosening of inhibitions, free rein of impulses ..and acts freely - Sandeep Gautam

Impulsivity is an increase in free-will? - Christopher A Carr

I guess free will has two parts...impulsivity contributes to freeness...freedom from history or immediacy...wilfulnness comes from ability to keep impulsivity in check. - Sandeep Gautam

ok to better rephrase it ...impulsivity - freedom from immediacy....impluses not driven by stimulus necessarily; willfulness - freedom from history- actions not governed by past operant rewards necessarily. - Sandeep Gautam

Regarding "could have," does Google Voice's speech-to-text algorithm have free-will? ...well, I guess Google Voice uses lots of statistical analysis. Suppose you have a speech-to-text algorithm that attempts to assign phonemes to acoustic data segments. If a section is ambiguous between a /p/ and a /b/, and the algorithm assigns /b/, do we say it "could have" assigned /p/? - Christopher A Carr

"could have" is not my position. counterfactuls do not prove the point of free will in my opinion. I think more of given the same conditions different responses at different times that are goal-directed, spontaneous, exhibit choice of form and timing and procedure; google algo doesn't choose when to substitute /ba/ as /pa/; whether to substitue or not and if so when to substitute and why? It doesn't pass the volition test - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher: Your last emphatic vulgarism answered your own question about anger. I may persuade with my arguments. I may plead with my heart. But getting angry undermines your stand. What is left is that marvel for something that to many appears a standard of intelligence and perception to which they must attain. You want the answer couched only in the terms which you have defined. Your stance would lock out the very thing you claim to pursue. Even Richard Feynman didn't do that. - Melanie Reed

Sandeep: I'm hearing something like Ben Goertzel's definition of intelligence. Is free-will necessary to effect "..the ability to achieve complex goals in complex environments?" - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: Feynman also thought that Pascal's Wager was bullshit. - Christopher A Carr

to take the google voice algo example further, if the algo had hidden urges that would spontaneously and in unambiguous situations too, tweak the translation so as to favor /ba/ over /da/ sometimes and /da/ over /ba/ other times, then I would grant it willfulness or some freedom (it is not constrained by the text, but can decide on its own to translate a given text to sound; if it... more... - Sandeep Gautam

We're talking sound-to-text here. Text-to-speech is becoming trivial, except for things like prosody. - Christopher A Carr

ok whatever, you get the idea... - Sandeep Gautam

basically if after hearing ba correctly, if google algo still mischeveiously decidedtro code it as p or d, I owuld grant it some freedom. - Sandeep Gautam

Melanie: "I may plead with my heart." You would be better off pleading with your information processing organ. - Christopher A Carr

actually our folk notions may be appropriate here...we do attribute intentionality to products like google voice when they consistently f**k up in a particular way...we say what an idiot that application is and grant it sort of agency and purpose. - Sandeep Gautam

Sandeep: Indeed. Humans suffer from hyperactive agency detection, Melanie being a case in point. :-) - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: You're right. I am a very poor example of a robot. I am to the depth, to the last, human. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: High levels of rationality do not make one a "robot," in the sense of the word you're using. - Christopher A Carr

Ben's definition of intelligence (on a cursory read) to me seems wide ranging ...his 'task independent pragmatic understanding of itself and the world' borders on sentience, so not surprised if he takes volition also in its stride. BTW, its 3 am in morning india, time to signoff. will continue discussion tomorrow:-) - Sandeep Gautam

Been lovely conversing with you Sandeep. Good evening. - Christopher A Carr

my pleasure too! - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher: No, they make one increasingly intolerant of the sum of what you are. You are dissatisfied. Your path to satisfaction has one route and it is always to run round in that circle. But do you plan to arrive anywhere? Or is it to find pleasure in the game of the circular? If so, I can understand that. But it still doesn't solve the problem of dissatisfaction. It is just a higher level of pleasurable distraction. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: With what do you suppose I'm dissatisfied? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: You want to know rather just believe.If you are presented with a situation requiring belief in the gap where knowledge leaves off, that makes you dissatisfied. I can understand that. We all have that. It's what we do with that space that makes all the difference in the world - Melanie Reed

"There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." <--- Why do you not believe that? - Christopher A Carr

With respect, Mohammed did not come to come to make dead people live. He did not come to die for their sins and make a way out for them so that their relationship with God could be restored to what it was. Only Jesus did this. And I am grateful for what He did. - Melanie Reed

"Only Jesus did this." No he didn't. - Christopher A Carr

Tell me, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, to what religion do you suppose you would adhere? That you are a Christian is an arbitrary matter of having been born in a predominately Christian part of the world. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Again, with respect, it is not arbitrary. I have brothers and sisters ( in Christ) who are in Saudi Arabia, indeed, in every part of the world. I have brothers (in Christ) who grew up in SA and later through a chain of events moved elsewhere and then became Christians. - Melanie Reed

Suppose you were born in a small tribe in the Amazon basin which has yet to interact with missionaries. You think you would be Christian? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Christ is there, too. Though some of our brothers have given their lives in that mission. Of recent note (in this century) with the Waodani tribe.One tribe member in particular killed 4 missionaries, but later became our brother. - Melanie Reed

You've no ethical qualms with destroying these cultures? None at all? - Christopher A Carr

Of course you avoided the question. - Christopher A Carr

That culture still exists, Christopher. They only difference is that they exist knowing the promise of Christ. - Melanie Reed

These cultures are surely doomed anyway, but it strikes me as a despicable that you're so happy to be the executioner. - Christopher A Carr

I agree with you that as globalization progress (through technology and big business) many cultures and lives will be uprooted. But it is not Christ who is destroying people. It is people and their greed who are doing these things to each other. - Melanie Reed

I also wanted to make clear in case there was confusion: the missionaries were attacked by the tribe and 4 were killed. The missionaries did not fight back. They allowed themselves to be killed. It was this that made an impression on the tribe member and he later became a Christian - Melanie Reed

We should move it over here so Christopher can clean up this thread: http://friendfeed.com/cacarr... - Christopher A Carr

I'd be interested to know how you would describe the reason for your participation in this discussion: 1. "I came across this debate and felt compelled to respond..." 2. "Of several competing actions/options I have deliberately chosen to respond to this thread..." 3. "I never consciously decided to take part in this debate for a special reason, it just happened / I just did..." 4. "Because of / God / made me do it..." - Alexander Kruel

@Sandeep Gautam: If you define free will as freedom from immediacy, how does one achieve this? Every stimulus must be processed immediately. You don't have the option to ignore it. To restrain an urge is as much a response to stimulus as motor output. Influence is always reciprocal. Non-actions do not exist. Besides, how many people would be happy to define free will as the unconscious... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alexander, I made an assumption that you might be addressing me since you invoked God in your question. This thread is in a "public" room. It infers general participation by that alone. The concept of Free Will, regardless of what it has come to mean or might come to mean, within the scientific discipline originated as concept with God and therefore has been the immediate concern of... more... - Melanie Reed

@Melanie Reed: Seen me arguing against your participation in this discussion? I actually agree with you in one point. It's a theological concept. Sadly some people don't get it, or try to sneak it into neuroscience. - Alexander Kruel

@Alexander Kruel My apologies for misunderstanding who your comment was aimed at. I do understand the desire to pursue the concept from the scientific discipline. Strangely, (as it might seem to some of the participants on this thread) others have wanted to look through this lens but from a different direction: this is what we know. Now how does it work from here. Curiosity is only... more... - Melanie Reed

Do you think your god possess free will given its omniscience and thus prior knowledge of its own actions? Just curious :-) - Alexander Kruel

One seemingly innocuous passage declares that "His thinking is higher" meaning that He is not constrained by the same constraints that we experience within our lesser wills of choice. But here is the kicker: He chooses to work within the constraints He asks of us. In short: he "obeys" His own moral laws but allows for a stepping outside the natural (what we perceive as scientific) law... more... - Melanie Reed

Seen that coming. You can't win a theological debate. Never mind, just trying to fathom if it is worth talking about this topic with you any further. I would, but I don't have the time. - Alexander Kruel

I wasn't debating. :) And I don't mind at all appearing foolish. I thank you for listening. - Melanie Reed

I don't mind appearing foolish either. Otherwise I wouldn't comment on such topics at all. But I have nothing to lose, contrary to some educated scientists that should know better. Anyway, if you haven't been debating, what then, preaching? I consider that as spam. - Alexander Kruel

I have told you the truth. Spam, when I began in technology, was defined as repeatedly sending the same email message to a recipients mailbox, flooding it so that nothing else could be sent out or received. Thus, it was incapacitating the recipient's ability to communicate. That hasn't happened here. That definition hasn't changed that I know of and I have been in the tech field for a... more... - Melanie Reed

It was an analogy. Unsolicited advertisement for something I'm not interested in. I wasn't writing a scientific paper and thought a lack of preciseness in my word choice would be permitted. Nevertheless, I grant you a points win on this one. P.S. I'm off for today... - Alexander Kruel

Just to clarify a few points in this meandering thread. Determinism, even macroscopically, is about as antiquated as that of what people in this thread call 'genuine' free will. Of course, anybody is entitled to their opinions, but of course anybody is free to ridicule flat-earthers, too. Free will is composed of two things. If we get too free (e.g. by drugs), we question the will. If... more... - Björn Brembs

I've had Tourette syndrome/impulse control disorder for many years during my childhood. I still suffer from other psychological disorders/problems, such as medical anxiety or having feelings/perceptions of things being venomed. I've never been able to focus myself on certain tasks. I also grew up in a very religious surrounding where people believe into libertarian free will. Thus I'm... more... - Alexander Kruel

@Xixidu not every stimulus is processed ; if that was the case we would get mad; be paralyzed analyzing the incoming stimulations. A lot of the stimulus is ignored and never reaches consciousness, so it is wrong to say every stimulus is attended to. Most are ignored and ignoring a stimulus need not be a conscious decisions; it can be an unconscious decisions. to say that ignoring a stimulus is also responding to it is clearly twisting definitions. . - Sandeep Gautam

A decision is a decision. No need to twist definitions here. If you come up with loaded and loose concepts such as free will, what do you expect? Your volition is the sum of all stimulus, internal and external, conscious and ignored. Where is the freedom? The word surely needs to have some meaning beyond the fuzziness of unpredictability? If not, why do you introduce it, what is its use in science? How does it enrich our comprehension of natural phenomena? - Alexander Kruel

why do you keep harping on unpredictability. Free will is not about unpredictability. Its not about randomness either. It si about freedom (from immediacy, from history). for eg, If I resolve not to reply to your posts in ana acrimonous manner , no matter how acrimonous you become, than though by stating it explicitly, I become highly predictable; I am still exercising my free will,... more... - Sandeep Gautam

Why are we attracted to Andromeda? Because every bit of matter attracts one another. The infinitesimals forces of nature exert their pull infinitely. I'm not arguing against libertarian free will here, although I know you believe into it. I'm arguing against the term in general. If you propose the existence of a will that is free, as implied by the combinatorial term free will, then what is the nature of will? Do people either act deliberately or genuine deliberate? Show me why you need to add free to will. - Alexander Kruel

+++ Sandeep Gautam - Melanie Reed

let me get this straight. you believe that 'will' exists but is not 'free' and we create an oxymoron by adding free; can you define what your 'will' is? - Sandeep Gautam

Because the gravity between people and the gravity between celestial bodies are not the same thing. It seems that there is a blurring between what you are saying (influenced by experience from your condition as a variable) and what Sandeep is saying. Needs sorting out - Melanie Reed

You can express gravity between people as that of emotional attraction or repulsion based on characteristics not the force between galaxies - Melanie Reed

Yes I can: My will is the unfolding of a highly complex process, a sub-system of the universe, as defined by this system itself, into actions perceived to be shaped by itself. I tried to define free will here: http://xixidu.tumblr.com/post... - Just remove free and you got my definition of 'volition'... - Alexander Kruel

Alexander Kruel to Alexander's feed, Philosophy Now, Mind & Brain

Narrative and Self Construction - http://singyourownlullaby.blogspot.com/2009...

Wednesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"Self-awareness can be thought as the to the capacity to become the object of one’s own attention where the individual actively identifies, processes, and stores information about the self. It includes the end result of this processing and the recopilation of—self-knowledge. It involves attention paid to one’s own mental states (such as perceptions, sensations, attitudes, intentions and emotions) and public self-characteristics (which include behaviors and general physical appearance)." - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

"According to Jonathan Adler "one of the most important and least recognized features of the human mind is inner speech which is sometimes refered to as self-talk". In adults, self-talk is described as "thinking" or “reflection”. Self-talk is a continuous narrative feature of the mind. ... the human brain has a natural affinity for narrative which is based on inner speech. People tend to remember facts more accurately if they encounter them in a story rather than in a list..." - james reilly

Alexander Kruel

A biological rationale for musical scales - http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2009...

Wednesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"An interesting article from Gill and Purves on musical scales, and how humans use only a few of the enormous number of possible tone combinations to create music. I found the illustrations to be fascinating and very educational..." - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

Wildcat

"Like the landscapes they negotiate, the subjectivities who operate within cyberspace also become..." http://wildcat2030.tumblr.com/post...

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Alexander Kruel

That inexplicable feeling of being 'you' - http://www.newscientist.com/blogs...

Wednesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"At the Wellcome Collection in London, a new exhibition tackles the ambiguities that lie at the heart of who we are and the ways in which science continuously morphs the meaning of identity." - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

Alexander Kruel

Summerians Look On In Confusion As Christian God Creates World - http://berto-meister.blogspot.com/2009...

Wednesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth. According to recently excavated clay tablets inscribed with cuneiform script, thousands of Sumerians—the first humans to establish systems of writing, agriculture, and government—were working on their sophisticated irrigation systems when the Father of All Creation reached down from the ether and blew the divine spirit of life into their thriving civilization. "I do not understand," reads an ancient line of pictographs depicting the sun, the moon, water, and a Sumerian who appears to be scratching his head. "A booming voice is saying, 'Let there be light,' but there is already light. It is saying, 'Let the earth bring forth grass,' but I am already standing on grass." "Everything is here already," the pictograph continues. "We do not need more stars."" - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

Alexander Kruel

Overcoming Bias : Random Smoking Trials - http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009...

Tuesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"So I dug further; bottom line: Johnstone & Finch are right. We usually see strong correlations between death and smoking, and we see those same correlations within each random arm (i.e., group) of a randomized trial. Nevertheless, we see no significant net death differences between control arms and arms induced to smoke less. So we don’t have clear evidence that smoking kills; it could be that most or all of the net death-smoking correlation is due to selection effects, and not smoking causing death. Experts say there is a substantial causal component, and for now I’m accepting that claim, but this lack of clear evidence is suspicious, and disturbing. Now for some details." - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

Alexander Kruel to Alexander's feed, Philosophy Now

If Free Will Isn't An Illusion - http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_dai...

Tuesday from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"Arguments like Thomas Metzinger's understanding of the self make it hard for me to defend free will from a scientific perspective. But my inability to fully explain free will through rational thought shrinks somewhat in importance when considering that we all live our lives as if free will exists. Even if I cannot satisfactorily resolve free will intellectually, I take some comfort in the lived embrace of it. Searle poses a good question that highlights the inability to shake off the experience or illusion of free will: "if determinism were shown to be true, would you accept it?"" - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

I wonder if there have ever been any studies regarding the prevalence and perception of free will. I doubt a fruit fly has to "live its live as if free will exists". - Alexander Kruel

Myrna to Myrna's feed, ART ROOMََََ

Elsa Mora: Cactus Girl - http://elsita.typepad.com/elsita...

December 14 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

آریـوبرزن, Tatiana Agapcheva, Live4Emma (L4S) and 9 other people liked this

"All the thorns represent those mechanisms of self-defense or self-protection that we need to develop. Like a rose, this girl wants to be safe in her own emotional garden. All the thorns represent those mechanisms of self-defense or self-protection that we need to develop. Like a rose, this girl wants to be safe in her own emotional garden. - Myrna from Bookmarklet

Alexander Kruel

"Darwinian Psychologist" Straw Man's Ass Kicked - http://hplusmagazine.com/article...

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"At the bottom of the first page, Dagg makes herself clear: "Animals" and "human beings" are two different categories. Oh dear. Should evolutionary psychologists be obliged to explain away the fallacy of this archaic dichotomy... again?" - Alexander Kruel from Bookmarklet

""The view that human social behaviors are correlated with our human genes is largely held by people who are right wing politically." Make a list of the most prominent evolutionary psychologists and their famous supporters: Steve Pinker, E.O. Wilson, Robert Trivers, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett. Liberals all, some of them flaming. Trivers hung out with former Black Panther Party... more... - Alexander Kruel

"How about the Big Three researchers who wrote academic books about biological sex differences in cognition? That's a controversial topic with scads of research Dagg might be inclined to challenge. But Doreen Kimura, Diane Halpern, and Linda Mealy aren't mentioned. Judith Hall spent decades establishing cross-cultural differences in boys’ and girls’ ability to grok non-verbal cues. Her... more... - Alexander Kruel

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Art - All Sorts of Remedies - http://ajourneyroundmyskull.blogspot.com/2009...

December 13 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

good pictures - Laniez

5 more comments

Philippe, glad you enjoyed! - Myrna

thanks for my surname - Laniez

Listed you on twitter :) - Myrna

These are wonderful - martha

martha, love them myself - Myrna

follow you on FF - Laniez

M F to M's feed, Illustration

Criterion Collection DVD Covers - http://grainedit.com/2009...

December 9 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

james reilly, Iván Abrego and cyberpunk soul liked this

Ozgur Uckan

Record labels must face the music | Don Tapscott - http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment...

December 8 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

james reilly and Tolga D. liked this

"The labels' fundamental problems predated the internet. Recorded music has been a bloated industry. To take a band from obscurity to popularity is hugely expensive, but that's what companies have had to do to be given coveted shelf space at the record store. So record companies seek out only potential superstars, since less than of CDs are profitable. Revenues from the best sellers cover the losses of all the rest." - Ozgur Uckan

M F

Ivan Milev - http://emmeffe.posterous.com/ivan-mi...

December 3 from Posterous - Comment - Like - Share

james reilly, WingsOfFlo, chaz2b and 神田森莉 liked this

Ivan Milev Lalev (Bulgarian: Иван Милев Лалев; 18 February 1897 – 27 January 1927) was a Bulgarian painter and scenographer regarded as the founder of the Bulgarian Secession and a representative of Bulgarian modernism, combining symbolism, Art Nouveau and expressionism in his work. Read More... ... Posted via email from M F's posterous - M F from Posterous

M F

The fairy tales of Charles Perrault - http://emmeffe.posterous.com/the-fai...

December 3 from Posterous - Comment - Like - Share

Irma Vermaat, Greg Guitarbuster, james reilly and 3 other people liked this

Lovely book published in 1922, illustrated by Harry Clarke and that can be found here in all its glory. ... Posted via email from M F's posterous - M F from Posterous

Wildcat to Wildcat's feed, Polytopia/collective intelligence, Culture & Society, 2009 Sci-Tech

War Is Peace: Can Science Fight Media Disinformation?: In the 24/7 Internet world, people make lots of claims. Science provides a guide for testing them, Scientific American - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article...

November 25 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

bellegarde-webb, Amira, james reilly and 2 other people liked this

"When I saw the statement repeated online that theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking of the University of Cambridge would be dead by now if he lived in the U.K. and had to depend on the National Health Service (he, of course, is alive and working in the U.K., where he always has), I reflected on something I had written a dozen years ago, in one of my first published commentaries: “The increasingly blatant nature of the nonsense uttered with impunity in public discourse is chilling. Our democratic society is imperiled as much by this as any other single threat, regardless of whether the origins of the nonsense are religious fanaticism, simple ignorance or personal gain.” As I listen to the manifest nonsense that has been promulgated by the likes of right-wing fanatic radio hosts and moronic ex-governors in response to the effort to bring the U.S. into alignment with other industrial countries in providing reasonable and affordable health care for all its citizens, it seems that things... more... - Wildcat from Bookmarklet

come to Australia Wildcat, it's all way too sensible, but we get to be regarded as rude crude and redneck in a cute hick type way - meika loofs samorzewski

M F

Lighthouses on Photochrom - http://emmeffe.posterous.com/lightho...

December 1 from Posterous - Comment - Like - Share

Reiner Grißhammer, Demetrios the Traveller, Iván Abrego and 6 other people liked this

The lighthouse, Hunstanton, England The lighthouse, Helgoland, Germany Jersey, Corbiere Lighthouse, I, Channel Islands, England Moonlight view, with lighthouse, Algiers, Algeria Eddystone Lighthouse, Plymouth, England The Nubble, York, Maine White Island Light, Isles of Shoals, N.H. Annisquam Light, ... Posted via email from M F's posterous - M F from Posterous

Wonderful! - Iván Abrego

Mind & Brain

Born to Perform. The ability to keep cool depends on how your brain is wired by Joshua Gowin | Psychology Today - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...

November 10 from Delicious/ami.news/mind_brain - Comment - Like - Share

Ozgur Uckan and james reilly liked this

Few events in popular music were as momentous as the Beatles first appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show on February 9, 1964. Paul McCartney recently revisited the Ed Sullivan Theater to appear on the Late Show with David Letterman, and he recounted a story about his early appearances as a young man. As he waited to go onstage, a stage manager asked McCartney, "Are you nervous? "No, not really." "You should be, there are over 70 million people watching." - Amira

M F

Neurevolution - Cingulate Cortex and the Evolution of Human Uniqueness - http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2009...

November 20 from M Farber's shared items in... - Comment - Like - Share

james reilly and Daniel Mietchen liked this

Wildcat to Wildcat's feed, Polytopia/collective intelligence, Culture & Society

Click: What Millions of People do Online and Why it Matters by Bill Tancer http://www.billtancer.com/ (via http://friendfeed.com/anibalm...)

December 1 - Comment - Like - Share

james reilly and Alexander Kruel liked this

Wildcat

"The goal of ancient skepticism is to produce a state of ‘ataraxia’ or ‘freedom of mind’ in the souls of..." http://wildcat2030.tumblr.com/post...

November 30 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

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Wildcat to Wildcat's feed, WildSpace

You can control your Marilyn Monroe neuron - http://www.physorg.com/news175...

November 30 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Tristan Hambling, james reilly, Amira and FastTFriend liked this

"In a scientific first, researchers have been able to demonstrate the ability of humans to control the activity of individual brain cells. Scientists examining single neurons in the human brain have successfully identified individual brain cells responding to particular stimuli such as pictures of individual people and objects. They have also found that people can control the firing of the neurons. The research studied volunteers with epilepsy who had electrodes implanted in their brains to track where their seizures originated. The electrodes were used by the researchers to "eavesdrop" on single cells in the medial temporal lobe, an area important for attention, perception and memory. Dr. Moran Cerf of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena and colleagues conducted their experiment by showing the subjects images of people, places or objects that were familiar to them, including pictures of celebrities such as Michael Jackson, Marilyn Monroe, and Bill Clinton. They then... more... - Wildcat from Bookmarklet

Amira to Amira's feed, Culture & Society, Science Online, ScienceWorld, History

Royal Society - from young Mozart to black holes, 350 years of the Royal Society go online (via http://ff.im/ccB8p) - http://trailblazing.royalsociety.org/

November 30 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Gordon Herd, meika loofs samorzewski, Roberto Bonini and 12 other people liked this

Britain's academy of the sciences marks anniversary with online archive including letters from Newton and Captain Cook. Welcome to Trailblazing, an interactive timeline for everybody with an interest in science. Compiled by scientists, science communicators and historians – and co-ordinated by Professor Michael Thompson FRS – it celebrates three and a half centuries of scientific endeavour and has been launched to commemorate the Royal Society’s 350th anniversary in 2010. Trailblazing is a user-friendly, ‘explore-at-your-own-pace’, virtual journey through science. It showcases sixty fascinating and inspiring articles selected from an archive of more than 60,000 published by the Royal Society between 1665 and 2010. Review by Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture... - Amira from Bookmarklet

To see enlarged images click "View/print this commentary" on the right of each description. - Amira

Wildcat to Wildcat's feed, WildSpace

What are the bare essentials of life? First-ever blueprint of a minimal cell is more complex than expected | Eureka! Science News - http://esciencenews.com/article...

November 30 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Tristan Hambling, andrei_c, james reilly and Amira liked this

"What are the bare essentials of life, the indispensable ingredients required to produce a cell that can survive on its own? Can we describe the molecular anatomy of a cell, and understand how an entire organism functions as a system? These are just some of the questions that scientists in a partnership between the European Molecular Biology Laboratory (EMBL) in Heidelberg, Germany, and the Centre de Regulacio Genòmica (CRG) in Barcelona, Spain, set out to address. In three papers published back-to-back today in Science, they provide the first comprehensive picture of a minimal cell, based on an extensive quantitative study of the biology of the bacterium that causes atypical pneumonia, Mycoplasma pneumoniae. The study uncovers fascinating novelties relevant to bacterial biology and shows that even the simplest of cells is more complex than expected. Mycoplasma pneumoniae is a small, single-cell bacterium that causes atypical pneumonia in humans. It is also one of the smallest... more... - Wildcat from Bookmarklet

Unlike that of other, larger, bacteria, M. pneumoniae's metabolism doesn't appear to be geared towards multiplying as quickly as possible, perhaps because of its pathogenic lifestyle. Another surprise was the fact that, although it has a very small genome, this bacterium is incredibly flexible and readily adjusts its metabolism to drastic changes in environmental conditions. This... more... - Wildcat

Wildcat

A pertinent read: Deconstructing the Placebo http://wildcat.amplify.com/2009...

November 27 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

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Ozgur Uckan

Archive Trouble: Collecting and British Punk - Mute magazine - Culture and politics after the net - http://www.metamute.org/en...

November 27 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

james reilly and Tolga D. liked this

"Punks collecting things other than safety pins and STDs? Jon Bywater looks at the tendency among Punk enthusiasts to compile catalogues and measure their contents in this month's Mute music colu" - Ozgur Uckan from Bookmarklet

" ...the most distinguished trait of a collection will always be its transmissibility. You should know that in saying this I fully realize that my discussion of the mental climate of collecting will confirm many of you in your conviction that this passion is behind the times, in your distrust of the collector type. Nothing is further from my mind than to shake either your conviction or your distrust." - Walter Benjamin: ‘Unpacking my Library: A Talk about Book Collecting,' 1931 - Ozgur Uckan

" Effective democratization can always be measured by this essential criterion: the participation in and access to the archive, its constitution, and its interpretation." - Jacques Derrida, Archive Fever: A Freudian Impression, trans. Eric Prenowitz, 1995 - Ozgur Uckan

chaz2b to chaz2b's feed, Science News

U.S. scientists discover emotion-like behavior in fruit flies - http://english.people.com.cn/90001...

November 26 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Véronique Rabuteau, james reilly, imabonehead and rowlikeagirl liked this

"U.S. scientists have uncovered evidence of a primitive emotion-like behavior in the fruit fly, and their finding may facilitate studies of the relationship between a corrective medicine and a learning disability." - chaz2b from Bookmarklet

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