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Jason Pontin › Likes

Jay Rosen
I haven't run a media empire, @rafatali. Not even once! But I do have a PhD in media studies. Would it be okay if I offer a few criticisms?
I cannot believe this.... @rafatali Funny how all the clusterfuck discusses future of jrnlsm & paywalls over the wknd, and maybe 1 actually has a biz role at a media org. @rafatali At the cost of repeating: those who can, do, those who can't, discuss the future of journalism ... Rafat Ali is the Founder/Editor, & Contentnext Media - Jay Rosen
A little young to be a journomudgeon, don't you think? - Josette
"@rafatali Man I so walked into that one. I did warn last night I would be xtra cranky this month of fasting".. Perhaps days of fasting should be also days of staying away from the internets.... - Bora Zivkovic
I find it astounding. I really do. We're supposed to shut up and listen to the people who run media companies? FUCK YOU! - Jay Rosen
Those who are NOT running media businesses can't possibly do much worse than those who currently are. - The Web's Wendell Wittler
I know I don't count in's eyes, because I am not a player, a CFO or CEO, but as a purely symbolic statement from the navel gazing gallery, I am not contributing to's success in any way from here on, until we get some kind of explanation for this contempt festival Rafat decided to stage. I have linked a lot to that site, but now I would feel sleazy sending anyone there. - Jay Rosen
Yeah, they are doing such a fantastic job of running the Media organizations- must be because they don't discuss/brainstorm/think outside the box. It is a self-perpetuating system/change is a threat/cannot see the forest for the trees. Name calling, nasty anger and degrading a discussion are always signs of weakness-giving your power away. - frankiecarl
My last comment was directed @rafatali hope there was no misunderstanding. I also left a note on his twitter site. - frankiecarl
Well... In your heat you misrepresent Rafat Ali, I think. His point was less that there should be a prohibition on people who are not journalists or publishers commenting on "the future of journalism", but more that the people who really understand the business of media are actively running media companies. He's right, surely? The amount of misinformation propagated by media commenters... more... - Jason Pontin
@Jason Interesting. Do you have a link to some more detailed explanation of "the circulation revenues from a reader"? - Anders Norgaard
Jay Rosen
You'll find out yourself soon enough, but I'm telling you now. "Lists" are going to change Twitter
I'll find out soon enough? It's tolerably obvious. Still, Jay is right: the SUL was grossly distorting of Twitter's supposed mission (was, in @ev's own phrase, "a hack"), and Lists will be both more useful and more important to the service's users in the long run. - Jason Pontin
Well, this is interesting. Not only did @alyssa_milano retweet this, she followed you: Former child stars get the mindcast! - Josette
Jay Rosen
Nothing is going to "save journalism," okay? Not because it can't be saved; rather, solutions are multiple and partial.
I would only add, as some one who has written about "how to save media," that the business practices that underwrote journalism were *ever* multiple and partial and complexly related. It's pundits who don't really know the biz of media who wring their hands, asking for a single, simple thing to save the profession and form of journalism. - Jason Pontin
Jay Rosen
"Our movement is above numbers. Our movement is above fact.” CJR's @megangarber on the 2 million madness
THEIR movement has to be 'above' numbers or facts, because it simply has neither. - The Web's Wendell Wittler
"The base is not reality-based" has entered the discourse. Check this out..... "To frame a message and its manifestations as somehow above logic is also, after all, to frame them as beyond logic. It’s to delegitimize the whole movement—and, yes, it is a movement—as a political entity. It’s to give credence to the oft-repeated claim that 'the base is not reality-based,' and to suggest that a loyal opposition is also a laughable one. Numbers can be symbolic, sure. But first they have to be accurate." - Jay Rosen
Oh, I have noticed that. ;-) - Bora Zivkovic
"It's turtles all the way down" - Mr. Gunn
Whence the quotation, Jay? - Jason Pontin
Beck says the march drew 1.7 million people. Some university did a study, he says. - Jay Rosen
Yeah, the WTF Institute and State University, I bet. - Josette
Jay Rosen
My snowman Tweet which is really getting around, was inspired by "The Value of Information" Recommended.
Makes fun? No, that is constructive criticism, meant to give them a much -needed jolt. - Bora Zivkovic
Jay Rosen
Get it straight: For about 180 years newspapers haven't charged for the journalism they do Well done, @jeffsonderman.
The author writes on how this post went viral ... "As best I can reconstruct, a few of my Twitter followers started retweeting the post link late Wednesday. The firestorm really started, though, after former Editor Jim Brady and later NYU journalism professor Jay Rosen tweeted it." - Jay Rosen
Robert Scoble
Mike Arrington is leading the mob. Read his anti-FriendFeed rant here and tell us whether he is wrong or right. Oh, and welcome to the mob:
He'll be back...he's just going to milk this for all it's worth first. - Garin Kilpatrick
Do not feed the trolls. - monkeystick
I think he is looking for page views and a way to get the mob to come to his real time event on July 10th. Brilliantly played Mr. Arrington! - Robert Scoble
Maybe it will bring some more people to FF who haven't been on it which is a good thing. - Mike Bracco
"FriendFeed today is like Syphilis in 1495." -Arrington. I'd say that's taking this a bit too far. - Garin Kilpatrick
I understand objectively there's strengths and weaknesses, but I also find that this discussion is teetering of the verge of irrelevance. Can you make it clear to me (in seriousness) the value from this friendfeed versus anti friendfeed arguement? Are we looking forward to the next tool? Or to making improvements to friendfeed? - Malcolm Bastien
Mike: I doubt it. - Robert Scoble
Do you think it was specifically an anti-Friendfeed rant, Robert? Some of the comments that poured in after the "Laporte Incident" were pretty horrible. If I was on the receiving end of that, I'd think I'd be feeling like a mob was after my head. Also, don't you think that his point about people feeling more comfortable to "talk hate" using their own/real names is a good one? - Andrew Terry
I don't understand why Mike is wasting time and effort on those death threat comments from the idiots that posted them. Why is he giving them any real credit? They should be dismissed. They should be ignored. They're the grown up versions of youtube commenters. - Lise
The thread with Aaron last week demonstrates that the FF community is reasonable and self-correcting. FF also provides fine grained controls so that you DON'T see what you don't want. Mobs are simply human nature. Dissapointingly so. Mike may as well call for the abolition of Town Halls, Community Clubs and the like. - Roberto Bonini
As long as Mob leaders like Laporte keep it together no trolls get hurt. - Garin Kilpatrick
Arrington should go crawl back into his cave - Daniel Lazarides
I have a feeling Arrington is developing a relationship with FF analogous to Dvorak's with Apple. ie. piss off the faithful (get traffic), blog about the nasty community members attacking you (more traffic), eventually reverse yourself and please the community (more traffic again). Lather-rinse-repeat. - Michael R. Bernstein
If Mike doesn't like mobs he should open a private room here on friendfeed. - Robert Scoble
I feel the same way about this argument that I do about people who complain about television. Stop whining. If you don't like what's on, change the channel or turn the TV off. FF, like any online community, is based on elective participation. If you don't like what's happening, move on to something else. Also, people take what's written in these forums WAY too seriously. If you can't take the occasional insult, get off the web and go find something else to do with your time. - Kevin (aka ThreadKilla)
And last i checked, Leo is NOT a mob leader. Or a Troll leader. - Roberto Bonini
Andrew: mobs have always formed online. FriendFeed does allow them to form faster but Arrington should go read Digg and YouTube comments for a while. The stuff I have seen here is pretty easy going compared to those. - Robert Scoble
Go to a forum with lots of members and ask a noobish question and watch the mob flame you into the middle of next week. - Mark
Michael: bing! Arrington is the best at whiping up crowds. Anyone remember when he called France lazy? - Robert Scoble
Andrew: I think everyone here generally agrees with Mike that those types of comments are out of line. Can't blame Mike for feeling touchy about them. - Roberto Bonini
Danny that's the irony in all this. Arrington is the King of The Trolls! Leo called him the biggest troll "in the world" a few times. - Mark
I used to read techcrunch and even comment once in a while. Mike Arrington has been consistently losing credibility with me these past few months, and now has forfeited the last bit. I was going to comment over there, but it really has ceased to be worth my time. I'm even sorry I clicked over to his article. Interesting that I wouldn't even have known for it if not for this post on...which service is this again, oh yes, ...friendfeed. - Jim #teamFFrank
It seems to me that Mike wants the attention or he wouldn't have post this. He just doesn't like it if it doesn't go his way. He sort of like the guy who finds a bees nest and pokes a stick in it. They finally calm down and they poke it again and are surprised by the results - Kim Landwehr
Jim: welcome to MobFeed. :-) - Robert Scoble
I'm in my Godfather. - Thomas Chai
Kim: Arrington is smarter than that. He knows there are a lot of people here and he is about to monetize the real time web with a conference. - Robert Scoble
Whats this conference you are refering to Rob ? x - Mark
Yep a online service that accounts for a small percentage of internet users will destroy everything Arrington holds dear. Syphilis? - Andy Foster
Kim: this is all about Arrington setting his conference up well. I will be a part of it from London. - Robert Scoble
[sigh] i guess Arrington just can't stop himself. - MikeAmundsen
"I’m going to pick on" - words say it all - Paul Rawlings
Anyone have a link to this real time conference he is doing? - Mark
Speaking of realtime, why hasn't Arrington or O'Reilly grabbed the title "Realtime Web" for a series of conferences ala Web 2.0?--maybe you should first Robert! - Michael Metz
I guess it's working - Ken Morley
Mike: Arrington is taking advantage of the fact that WE can't stop ourselves. - Robert Scoble
Exactly, Robert. - Ken Morley
Well, that explains a lot Robert - Kim Landwehr
What was that link again? Lol! - Ken Morley
is buddyfeed realtime? - Tyler Gillies from BuddyFeed
Arrington is @replying you on twitter robby - Mark
a) learn to use Block b) like twitter is sooo much better :/ c) waste of a read.. I thought Techcrunch did actual stories on stuff, not rants. Guess I was wrong. - Tim Hoeck
Well, the worst thing we as the FF community could do is prove him right by "attacking" back and name-calling for what he's said. Fanning the flames justifies his opinion. Hey, if it makes people wonder what going on with this "FriendFeed" thing and they come check it and realize it's not at all like what he was saying...all the better. So, let him have his opinion and spotlight. - That's So CAJ!
@Robert: IMO, Arrington is doing the same thing he always does: setting himself up for some abuse from others. it's so sad to watch. in this case, he'll likely get what we is asking for, too. *again* - MikeAmundsen
Probably should have said fein surprise - Kim Landwehr
thx Johni, - Mark
IMO, He's wrong. And, as mentioned, tossing gasoline on the fire by pretending to be outraged by such supposed mobs while deliberately inciting them. - Bob Morris (polizeros)
@arrington just wrote that I should propose tools to slow down the mob. Yes, we have those in Iran and China. I would rather have the mob. - Robert Scoble
I think Arrington just wants to destroy a medium that he can't control. - Nathan Cooprider
I really thing that this was more about online mobs with FriendFeed as an example rather than specifically about FriendFeed. Yes he uses FriendFeed as the example, but I don't think the points he makes are related solely to FriendFeed. You could easily replace FriendFeed with Digg or Huffingtonpost. Some place where people gather in mass and you can easily see a mob mentality grow. - Michael Koby
Robert!!!!!!! :) - Myrna
Of course he is right. When the wrong people come together than everything can happen. Same is true if good people. Even a revolution (specially Wednesday). People on FF and similar services have lots of power. Can be used to change the world! - bishoph
Yes Chris, he is a sly old dog isn't he? Tickets might be going too slow or something - Mark
The association with Syphilis is kind of weird. I think any public figure gets hate mail, electronically or otherwise. - Ace
@Michael Koby, I'd agree with you (to a certain extent), if the article wasn't...specifically about FriendFeed. And about an event that occurred to Arrington personally, no less. I'd have a lot more respect for his argument if he'd spend the time to find more examples. This just looks like someone who's had a flamewar turn on him that's fighting back with his own bullhorn. - Ken Kennedy
Bishoph: or a mob can break glass and burn buildings and hurt people. What do you want to use your mob for? - Robert Scoble
He probably just read a book on syphilis. When I read a book on something I like to make links to the topic to make me appear well-read and smart. - Mark
He (as usual) has some valid points. FF is a great conversation tool but when it becomes a chat room, it's not up to the task. Just as in public, I tend to avoid these mobs here on FF. 58 comments on this right now is fine but 1000 is useless. I know you don't agree, but IRC is much more useful for that. - John Rubier
It would help if Mike actually understood how he could shape his FriendFeed experience. There are such things as blocking and hiding. It also seems like those who can dish it out but not take it run screaming from FriendFeed - which invites *real* interaction and conversation. Yeah, it's sometimes unruly, but that's reality folks! If you want the *dated* version of arm's length, yell... more... - AJ Kohn
I can't make it to Arrington's event on July 10th (I live in Boston..and the event is in SF), but I hope it gets a lot of coverage online so that the rest of us can learn from what is shared :) - Sam Houston
Look what services like Twitter and FF did for Iran. Just a medium to share and discuss (real time) information. Of course the used words in the blog are misleading and obviously rant (a troll post to start a discussion in real time :-). - bishoph
(Robert Scoble) -- "this is all about Arrington setting his conference up well. I will be a part of it from London. " -- next time, put this at the beginning of your post, Robert. I'm NOT interested in being a part of this childish crap. If you have actually have a problem with the post, you shouldn't either. If this thread is to help TC drum up word-of-mouth about a conference, that's... more... - Ken Kennedy
Could argue that MobFeed was more useful because it had private rooms and things. - Mark
@AJ: Arrington knows how to use FF. this thread is evidence of that. his willingness to pimp himself out - to invite this kind of negative talk - just to promote his own interests is what is so disappointing. - MikeAmundsen
Lazily, i'll c&p my post from TC..Yeah, this is Arrington taking a personal incident and trying REALLY hard to universalize it. And the syphilis analogy only makes this look needier and less applicable. FriendFeed aggregates conversations and connects sub-streams of the cloud more efficiently than any other current service. Once you try it, you like it. I works. It's efficient. The... more... - Thom Kennon
@Mike: Perhaps he understands that he can drum up talk, but I don't think he's been here enough to actually understand it's true power. So, yes, Arrington essentially is a FriendFeed spammer or Social Media Lout. - AJ Kohn
Ken: it isn't my strategy and I am not profiting from it. - Robert Scoble
"Mobs" have collapsed police states, authoritarian regimes, and given rise to countries like are's that even allow us to have this conversation today. To suppress them is like revoking the right to assemble and petition, removing the peoples voice, and is not a sign of a free and open society. Turn on the news and remember 99% of the world haven't a clue who Mike Arrington is. - Shaun Hess
@Robert: do you think Arrington is using you to promote is own agenda? - MikeAmundsen
Mr. Arrington is just too young. This online behavior will not subside soon. AOL Chatrooms, Usenet discussions, Compuserve bulletin boards, listserv flame wars.... The more things change, the more they stay the same. 15 years of Law and Order and broadcasting reruns on other Channels. For a Technology News guy it's pretty pathetic. What's the news? Where is the new idea? - Birgit Pauli-Haack
Mike: he is using our mob behaviors, yes. Do I feel used? No more so than when Aaron and Steven did the same thing. - Robert Scoble
@Robert: yep. - MikeAmundsen
I think there are many factors working here: 1)rapidly changing community norms 2) expansion of these services from small homogeneous groups who create them 3)poor communications skills 4)poor social skills 5) a lack of inhibition due to the virtual environment. - Francine Hardaway from BuddyFeed
If there was ever any doubt that Arrington seeds the controversies that surround him, let this post put that doubt to rest. His goal is to incite passions because he knows that anger drives engagement more than agreement does. He's merely the Ann Coulter of the nerd world -- nothing more, nothing less. - Sprague D
Mike knows that we cannot help ourselves, we simply must talk about his post and send him lots of hits and maybe sell a ticket or two for him. - Mark
@Sprague: "He's merely the Anne Coulter of the nerd world..." LOL +1 - MikeAmundsen
Well put Francine! - Bluejeanslady from twhirl
@Robert: your response is far too similar to what you used AGAINST Tim O'Reilly and other members of the SUL, IMO. If you know/suspect that Arrington is using this to promote a conference that you're going to attend; a conference focused on a technology realm that you make your living off of...then of course this helps you, just like being on the SUL helps Tim O'Reilly, even if he's "not changing what he says based on it". You didn't find that answer from Tim satifying, and I feel the same way about yours. - Ken Kennedy
It is difficult to take Michael Arrington seriously as a tech analyst -- he's inflated his self-created brouhaha into a mentally disorganized blast at Friendfeed. A very emotional guy. Friendfeed is a self-organizing platform. One shouldn't complain about getting mired down in nasty exchanges that are easily avoided with unsubscriptions and blocks. Arrington's mess was self-inflicted. - Sean McBride
Chris: I am an unpaid speaker at the TechCrunch Real Time event. - Robert Scoble
Tim O'Reilly doesn't pay to be on the SUL, Robert. - Ken Kennedy
Ken: WTF? - Robert Scoble
As a matter of fact, I think Twitter is much more suited to mob creation than FriendFeed. - Miguel Caetano
I work on my mob behavior. I engage, but try to be civil, helpful, or educational:-) this is a learned behavior after I got my butt handed to me a few times. - Francine Hardaway from BuddyFeed
Yes Matthew, alot of people (myself included) read a book on something and feel we must reference it to make us appear smart. I did the same thing with a book on the black death. its all nonsense of course - Mark
@Sean: from my POV, not only was Arrington's mess self-inflicted, it was a purposeful act on his part. as is this one. - MikeAmundsen
Miguel: yeah, over on Twitter I saw hundreds of people saying Jeff Goldbloom was dead when he wasn't. - Robert Scoble
arrington: @Scobleizer perhaps someday when you are sitting in your house with a police car parked out front to protect you you'll think differently. - Mark
C'mon you seriously not grok the similarities between this argument and your complaint about O'Reilly/SUL? This is free publicity for a conference that you're speaking at that will help make your name more notable in your area of expertise. - Ken Kennedy
Mark: perhaps I will. - Robert Scoble
I need to read up a little more on the other parties involved. The only person I follow of this group with any real regularity is Leo LaPorte. However, from a listeners point of view, Leo grossly over-reacted to a legitimate question ( and I love Leo's work ). Would Larry King shut down the show just because he was asked something he was apparently sensitive about? ( I realize this... more... - Sean E Brown
Must have been a serious thread if the police give you personal protection - Mark
No robert, what I pasted was Arringtons reply to you on twitter - Mark
Mark: I know. - Robert Scoble
Arrington is just ticked off at the response he was getting after he attacked Leo .. yeah I really think he attacked him personally. Attacking a man's credibility and integrity is a personal attack in my opinion. Then he removed the techcrunch feed from friendfeed what let him .. I agree with the other commenters..He is an attention whore plain and simple then compares Friendfeed... more... - John Blanton from twhirl
I really think Arrington has a skewed view of FriendFeed. Most of the venom against him on FriendFeed has happened during Gillmor Gang podcasts, which were most recently running on Leo Laporte's TWiT network. For whatever reason, a large percentage of Leo's TWiT fan base hates Arrington. Not just disagree. Hate. They've also said pretty awful things about Steve Gillmor, Dave Winer, etc.... more... - Mike Doeff
Notice how Mike is totally absent on this thread. He should be here defending his article, defending his analogy to syphilis and letting us all know how dumb we are for not seeing things is way. Mike obiously sees no point to having this discussion. I count 2 tweets from him on this subject. - Roberto Bonini
@Mike Doeff If he did see the civility of FriendFeed he wouldn't have compared it to syphilis. - John Blanton
Please note, Robert...I don't think you're being all devious or anything. I'm just pointing this out to give you another angle on the O'Reilly thing. I actually think Tim probably thought "WTF" as well. And while I DO think that both of you are being a teeny bit naive thinking that the attention doesn't affect what you say or do...that's the case with pretty much all attention. I don't... more... - Ken Kennedy
Scoble: I see what you did here. :-) - Mark Davidson from BuddyFeed
I'd put a witty comment here, but Arrington isn't worth the requisite brain power that would consume. - Steven Perez
Arrington is a douch. - Peter Kruit
Can Mike read this thread without a FF account? - Mark
Ken: Arrington is on the Suggested User List and he did not disclose that. Jason Calacanis says that is worth $250,000. I guarantee you that speaking at a conference won't get you $250,000 worth of followers. - Robert Scoble
Anybody remember Usenet newsgroups? They still exist, and lots o' tech people still use them (i still answer questions there). There have been some remarkable flame wars there, and they are all threaded. I don't see how different that is from FF except FF has a prettier interface. - RobinDotNet
Mark: yes - Robert Scoble
Peter: so are you. - Robert Scoble
Robert: Thank you ;) Don't get me wrong. We also need people like that. They make for interesting discussions. - Peter Kruit
Hah! Arrington removed my comment about him not disclosing that he is on Twitter's Suggested User list. - Robert Scoble
Lets give 1 sec to the Arrington point at his last tweets ,cant we have some kind of control on the stream ?cant FF add better moderation tools ? - Johni Fisher
Robert: You're stirring the pot yourself and why? Because Arrington comapred FF to Syphilis? I have nothing against a discussion about the issue at hand but you're lead-in to this was a bit on the point of the article.. It's just a session of Arrignton bashing, replace the keyboards with pitchforks and you're all on your was the TC headquarters to string up the guy. - Sean E Brown
"on your way" rather - Sean E Brown
And again I am comment on a Scoble thread, but to misquote Cassius " The fault, dear Friends, is not in Scoble or Arrington But in ourselves, that we are underlings." - Kim Landwehr
oh I forgot IMHO - Sean E Brown
Sean: you are right. - Robert Scoble
Sean: the thing is I have seen mob suppression and I don't like it one bit. - Robert Scoble
And I have had my car damaged and life threatened by a mob after the 49ers won the Super Bowl one year. - Robert Scoble
@Robert: gotcha. I think I understand where you're coming from. I disagree, but it's no big deal. - Ken Kennedy
Robert: but who is suppressing it? An article isn't going to to stop mobs, not all mobs are good mobs (lol). I suppose we all have our quirks that get us up in arms, I am in no way innocent of that. - Sean E Brown
I declare the Dead Horse to be Beaten sufficiently. - Sean E Brown
@Johni Fisher: FriendFeed is a social network, not a community or a forum with administrators and the like. But I reckon that nested conversations could be useful ;-) - Miguel Caetano
This inspired me to listen to the Mob Rules album by Black Sabbath :D - Per
It's interesting to me that the very thing Arrington talks about happens here. Where did good taste and treating other people with respect get off the track? I mean seriously...have you looked at how many people are on this thread making nasty comments about Arrington? He isn't the only one that gets that treatment, we all do if we state our opinions publicly. Now, I'm not against... more... - Sheryl
Sheryl: yes, this is bloodsport. Same thing happens at baseball stadiums every day. - Robert Scoble
Sheryl: The nasty talk against Arrington is earned. Arrington frequently slams FriendFeed (which get under Robert Scoble's skin and compels him to do these sorts of posts, but that's another topic) and then cries whenever (a) no one pays him any attention or (b) people talk nasty about him. - Steven Perez
Robert: I can't take things that seriously. Life is to be lived not destroyed. Why don't we talk about the value of the mob? Why don't we talk about how amazing social networks can be? - Sheryl
Steven: I disagree with you :) That Arrington has an opinion and states it no more gives you or I a right to tear his person apart than my simply waking up every day. Argue against his opinion but name calling has no benefits. - Sheryl
Sheryl: You're entitled to your viewpoint, but I've been here long enough to see how Arrington operates. And nothing I've seen from him lately has changed that opinion. He deserves every bit of scorn he gets, because he delights in these sort of poop fights. - Steven Perez
Here are some features that might slow down mob-like participation: 1) move the comment link to after the last comment, rather than right under the item, to encourage reading the previous comments before commenting. 2) once a threshold has been reached, remove the comment link entirely, so you have to go to the item page (which displays all comments) before commenting, to discourage formation of instant pile-ons from within the live stream. - Michael R. Bernstein
Steven: You don't have to change your opinion of Arrington. At no time have I suggested you aren't entitled to your opinion. But what benefit for you is there in calling him names? We all have opinions others disagree with. You didn't call me names and yet for all you know I'm a horrible person (I'm not) I think the world is better for opinions and different thoughts. It stretches us to... more... - Sheryl
Mike comparing FF to syphilis is pure, shameless analogy abuse. But say what you will about Mike, his arguments are interesting, and I do read them. And if anyone on this thread wants to organize a torch and pitchfork mob against him, let me be the first to say I've got a billion more interesting and important things to occupy my time. - James Hernandez
Sheryl: I said it Zee's thread and I'll say it here - it's another Arrington poop fight. He throws enough of it on the wall to see what sticks, gets Robert Scoble riled up, and a mess of blog posts and forum fights ensue. SOP for Arrington. Meanwhile, he reaps the benefits of notoriety and links back to his site, all without ever setting foot in here, because we're all going over there to see what he wrote. - Steven Perez
Neither of these are particularly innovative, BTW. I can suggest reading Derek Powazek's excellent book 'Design for Community': - Michael R. Bernstein
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it go something like this: 1. Arrington dislikes Scoble. 2. Scoble likes FriendFeed. 3. Therefore, Arrington dislikes FriendFeed. - Stephen Mack
Steven: I would only ask this, who is inciting who if Arrington squawks and people fluff their feathers? I don't know Mike Arrington, I know who he is and I have read enough to know he frequently says things that are inflammatory, but I don't call him names publicly. Where is the value in that? Can someone show me why that is useful because if you can, I may change my tune, though it's highly unlikely! ;-) - Sheryl
Stephen: I don't think Arrington dislikes me. - Robert Scoble
it's all entertainment in the end :D - Iphigenie
Ken: ;-) Dork! LOL (I can call Ken names cause he's my SO) hehe - Sheryl
Ken: even filtering can't help some threads! :-) - Robert Scoble
Robert: shall I bop him on the head? hehe - Sheryl
Ken: only if you search for it will it matter for long. - Robert Scoble
Sheryl -- what kind of response do you think Arrington anticipated when he compared Friendfeed to syphillis -- *at length* (in case we missed the point)? Describing him as a jackass strikes me as a measured and rational response. But he is best ignored, to be sure. - Sean McBride
Sheryl: there's a small bit of problem with your logic. By your logic, everything that Ann Coulter (thanks, Sprague D) says is not deserving of scorn, either. - Steven Perez
Steven I don't say it's wrong to be scornful. I do still think it's wrong to call names. It feels wrong to me to validate that in any way. Defending position is a whole other thing. To enter the fray and retaliate has no good consequence. - Sheryl
Sean: I don't think it matters what Arrington's goal was. In the end, even if Arrington calls FF names, to do so in return accomplishes what? - Sheryl
Sheryl -- sometimes it is healthy to call out a jackass as a jackass, and then move on to more productive topics. It puts a period on the nonsense. In general I agree with you: the more civil the conversation, the better. - Sean McBride
This whole thing reminds me of the "How to tell someone they sounded racist video" I think we can all learn something from that video. Keep to the subject, instead of calling names and generalizing from what a person did. If you want a good discussion on this subject don't call people names. Instead of wasting time in here where M.A says he... more... - Rasmus Lauridsen
Because, at the end of the day, Arrington is against mob mentality ... unless he can direct the mob's direction. - Steven Perez
The real problem with herd mentality is that once understood, it can be effectively deployed to link bait, generate PR in the form of online discussions, and to promote social media sites and/or events, without people even being aware of it. - Mark Davidson
I'm particularly baffled - better yet - amused by how the media gurus quickly turn into poor, weeping poopflinging angry things once they find themselves prodded by the pointy end of a mass of people (which they then call "a mob" elegantly skipping the "lynch" part). Groupthink - yes, sometimes - even herd mentality - but this has all to do with how people are, and nothing with technology, so I really don't get the hate on FF (Syphilis? gimme a f-in' break!). - dario
also: the guy is obviously oblivious of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and has no clue about what goes on in "the mainstream", say on Reddit, /. or that cesspool that are youtube comments. FF is pretty much a small, happy place with tea, pastries and fancy embroidered cushions compared to those. - dario
Dude, TC deleted my (constructively thoughtful albeit critical) comment in the article thread --- and it keeps eating my attempts to repost. wtf?!... - Thom Kennon
Thom: Arrington did the same thing to me. Welcome to the mob. - Robert Scoble
Ken Camp - I agree completely with your post - this whole thread went from a discussion on Mobfeed and into something similar to a 1990 BBS rant - Kathleen Forden
This is really getting to be ridiculous. Arrington admits that people can be nasty at Twitter and other places, but says FriendFeed is worse, basically because all comments can be seen in one place. Blame FF? Why don't we start with blaming TechCrunch, because a lot of people started out disliking him due to what he writes there. I suspect that if Arrington didn't delete so much of what was posted there, we'd see a REAL mob. - MiniMage
Dario: If Arrington's blog post heightened your emotional state, then his mission was accomplished. If you clicked the link to Arrington's blog, then his mission was accomplished. If you commented on Arrington's blog, then his mission was accomplished. If Robert Scoble started a thread on FriendFeed about Arrington's blog post, then his mission was accomplished. If we are still... more... - Mark Davidson
Mark: that was my point, actually (sorry it didn't come through too well) - basically if you go prodding a hive with a stick sometimes you get stung - it doesn't reflect too well on you if you get all uppity afterwards. So, I agree with you 100% on the manipulative part. - dario
The same thing happens on Digg, and it's been around for years. It's not a problem with the service(s), it's a cultural problem. We've all been desensitized to some level or another, some extremely. - Blake
Dario: Don't feel bad. I got caught up in it too. It's human behavior. As human beings, we respond to stimuli. When executed properly, we just can't help ourselves. Our emotions get stirred, we take action in the form of a response, we become engaged because we've invested emotional energy, we talk amongst ourselves, etc. Politicians, public speakers, bloggers, television and radio... more... - Mark Davidson
What a bunch of echo chamber nonsense. - Jason Nunnelley
Matthew, I just expanded my opinion on Mike's post (linked by Scoble). I think it's calculated drama. Either that or really, really silly. I'm giving everyone the benefit of doubt here and assigning more intelligence than the latter opinion would allow. - Jason Nunnelley
Why would anyone take anything that Arrington writes seriously after his complete bullshit stories about - which had real, economic consequences for the company, and which are still being repeated as if they were true by people around the web? He's perfectly happy to whip up the mob when it suits him, but when it bites him back he suddenly becomes Mr Socially Concerned. - Ian Betteridge
How many times was Arrington's name mentioned in this post, thus reinforcing his brand through repetition? How many people reading his name were in an emotionally heightened state? Hmmm. lol. - Mark Davidson
When someone comes into your house and poops on your coffee table, it's a bit difficult to look at it rationally and ask what the merits of such an act was. - Steven Perez
He actually removed my comment. No kidding. I didn't wish him ill, suggest he should died or anything of that nature. I just made a coherent and short comment about his tactic with as bland a set of language as possible. Wimp. - Jason Nunnelley
THIS is why i fucking hate FF. "Read his anti-FriendFeed rant here" WHERE? damn it, friend feed always makes a monkey out of me. where's arrington's rant? i dunno. i'll seach for arrington's account and see if i can find it. i'll prolly be back in five minutes to say "oh, i'm so stupid... i found it at [INSERT FUCKING URL HERE]" thanks for exposing my FF ineptitude, Scoble. - Mark Hartwell
Mark: it's the first comment on this thread. It's a link. Then come back here to read the 200 comments. - Robert Scoble
Mark: I've used this device hundreds of times. Most people figure it out pretty quickly. - Robert Scoble
He hasn't deleted mine yet - Rasmus Lauridsen
Comment removal is standard practice at TechCrunch, and it really doesn't matter if the comments are polite. He'll leave a few counter-comments in (enough so it's not obvious he's blocking counter-opinions) and delete the rest. Perhaps his lack of control of the conversation is why he doesn't like FriendFeed much. - Ian Betteridge
All I said was that he should thank Scoble for the link, but he shouldn't be surprised if these tactics result in trollish drama queens following his work only to bring a teen girl styled smack down to his next slumber party. It wasn't even that caustic, definitely not "mob" language. - Jason Nunnelley
Matthew: he's probably deleting all comments he perceives as being from the "MobFeed." I think it's funny. Mike once told me he's an entertainer, and this is evidence of that. - Robert Scoble
aha got it ... second comment actually. i agree with jason calicanis ... you need a freaking masters degree to work friend feed. thanks, Robert, BTW .. the url gets shortened, so even though the title of the article is in that URL, one doesn't see it when scanning the comments. - Mark Hartwell
Mark: no, it's the first comment. The first line are people who clicked "like" on this item. - Robert Scoble
The problem, though, is that Arrington is an "entertainer" with the power to seriously hurt companies and careers in the web industry. And he does it, too. - Ian Betteridge
So, he deletes my comment about participating in adult conversation and leaves the guy's comment that calls him a douche? Mature. I'm starting to withdraw my prior benefit of doubt. - Jason Nunnelley
Ian: he only can hurt you if you let him. If your marketing campaign relies on TechCrunch then your marketing campaign is bad and needs a major rethink. I've had Valleywag and Techcrunch aimed at me before and it never hurts. - Robert Scoble
To be totally fair, i dont think it is that bad. We have had quite a few articles on Techcrunch and on on a whole they seem to be a nice bunch, very accomodating and understanding. - Paul Rawlings
Although it is unpleasant to go through. - Robert Scoble
I thought it was quite a funny read, I don't think I can take it seriously... it is almost as if someone spat in his face or something. - Paul Kinlan
Robert, he can't hurt me - but think of, whose reputation was hurt and which lost subscribers because of a completely false series of articles that Arrington posted. And he's never really acknowledged that he got it totally wrong, preferring to hint that "there's no smoke without fire". That's what I mean about serious damage. He has the power of mainstream media, without the vaguest notion of a conscience. - Ian Betteridge
FF interface: simple? perhaps. Intuitive? not so much. The FF fail is strong in me. (and scoble was right, the url IS in the first comment) what looked to me like the first comment was just a list of "likes" that's a Digg concept, right? - Mark Hartwell
Ian: if has value it will cruise right through a wrongful attack. I'm not saying it's right, or pleasant. - Robert Scoble
Yeah, will survive - think of the man-hours it took dealing with the mess that Arrington created. A lot of time and effort went into cleaning up a mess that Arrington gleefully made. And again, no acknowledgement from him that he was in the wrong. - Ian Betteridge
Matthew: stay nice. It's not that easy sometimes for newbies. - Robert Scoble
Matt, your comment on Arrington's post is funny dude. I give it ten minutes :) - Jason Nunnelley
I just read this entire post. I'm so sorry I wasted my time. Maybe we should ban the use of cell phones and IM just in case. Like FriendFeed, they also make it too easy to talk to people. - Rahsheen
on such a beautiful sunday, how on earth could anybody be paying attention to arrington's opinion - he is a self serving dolt... - mike "glemak" dunn
ok, i've read arrington's post. and most of this thread. the syphilis analogy was probably just something that mike has been wanting to paste and share since he read that book. the laporte / arrington "war" lasted all of 10 minutes. what that exchange DID expose was a lot of pent up anti-arrington hate. why do so many people think arrington is an asshole? simple, he IS an asshole. if i... more... - Mark Hartwell
ok Robert If you are going to remove mike's comment couldn't you at least remove my reply to him also? Now it stands out like a sore thumb of dumbness in a sea of irrelevance. :-P - Rasmus Lauridsen
Rasmus I haven't removed any replies on this thread! - Robert Scoble
yay then he removed it himself. Mission accomplished :-) - Rasmus Lauridsen
who cares. - Stalyn☂
Glad to know you know me so well @Zudfunck, So I'm a "spoiled intellectual" from California... Not a 29 year old college dropout living in Randers, Denmark? Wow you know me so well almost better than I know myself. Thanks for the generalization, it totally helped my mood :-P - Rasmus Lauridsen
What an odd post - I like Arrington, but it's posts like this that make him come off as a bully. The mob boss? - Jesse Stay
Robert: "Nice mob you got here" ~ Kevin Costner in Wyatt Earp - Sean E Brown
I think Mike is paranoid one of those startups he loves to put in the deadpool want HIM in the deadpool :p - Mark
A salad? You see this is the Kevin Rose effect. All the young kids up and coming in tech are all skinny, and they rock climb, and drink fashionable teas from around the world. No more fat techies with these guys in charge. Crap. - Mark
@mark dammit I need to work out then, thanks for not sending me that memo before now! :-P - Rasmus Lauridsen
Lost me when he got to the pustules part. - Oldengrey (Jay) from fftogo
Mike Arrington's is not on the global radar, so his rant is useless. There are major social media shifts in developing countries, violent regime crack-downs, and tech developments leading human dignity campaigns. - E-Advocate Network
Yawn, change a few words and it could be used by any class with power, religious, political. IE. Admin blog power, Green Dam, RIAA, Tehran, Bush. Read/Write culture is showing tremendous growth. There is no one person, power, group or nation that can change any of it. Call it Mob call it anything you want, but for 99.99999999999% of the population. His rant is a YAWN. It will change nothing and have no effect not now or ever. There is nothing to fear here move on. - Robert Higgins
The biggest problem with Mike Arrington and MG Siegler's arguments is they only seeing this problem because of their position. I've said some pretty fierce, opinionated things on FriendFeed, Twitter, and elsewhere, but I'm not fearing for my life. Nor would I in the near future. Even though we're not anonymous on FriendFeed or Twitter, it doesn't matter for most because we're anonymous enough to where enough people are going to care enough to do something to us. - Jared Mehle
+1 SpragueD, the difference being Ann Coulter has a pair of *cojones.* she wouldn't need months of seclusion and grief counseling after someone spat on her. - Karim
Karim: I am no longer speaking at any TechCrunch event, according to an email I just received. Just so we can clear that part up of the conversation above. - Robert Scoble
What a bone head move by TC. - Mark
Sorry, I don't join mobs. - xero
Matthew: I don't know, but he clearly was not happy with something I said above. - Robert Scoble
Matthew: Mike considers Robert the leader of the FF movement for some odd reason. Cult leader. He evangelises the service so he must be the one getting people to threaten Mike, right. - Mark
Matthew: it might have been a comment he deleted over on TechCrunch too. I don't know. I'll talk with him when he's calmer and see what got him to use that stick on my legs. - Robert Scoble
Don't think so. We have work to do to get alot of the big twitter users over here. - Mark
Friendfeed is ours. We own it, not the celebs who own twitter more and more :/ FF is for the geeks. - Mark
Robert... he *disinvited* you to London? lol. petty. perhaps not unexpected though, given his penchant for drama. in the movies they call it a "plot point." - Karim
Karim: I'm going to London, just not going to speak at any TechCrunch event I guess. I'm going as part of - Robert Scoble
©Scoble, you said, "...he only can hurt you if you let him. If your marketing campaign relies on TechCrunch then your marketing campaign is bad and needs a major rethink." According to a rep from a huge tech corporation, even an unknown blogger can damage a company's ability to sell a product. When I asked for permission to review a new device, the response I received conveyed this warning. I never wrote the review. I'm not sure I ever wrote any others. - MiniMage
MiniMage: yes, any random person can hurt you, but only if that pain resonates with others. If you have a great product or service, it will go on. Look at Apple. - Robert Scoble
Matthew: where did you read that? - Robert Scoble
Matthew: Arrington isn't in charge of so he can't pull my ticket from London. He can, however, keep me out of TechCrunch events. - Robert Scoble
I'll read this thread, but why is Mike angry with you, Robert? - Stephen Pickering
Stephen: I don't know. I guess he feels I turned the mob against him. Or something I did over on his blog bugged him (he deleted a comment where I wondered whether his attacks on FriendFeed were driven by his inclusion on the Twitter Suggested User List, which delivered to him $250,000 of value and that he never discloses when he talks about social networking). Funny if it's that because it's pretty much the same thing that he did to Leo Laporte that pissed off Leo so much. - Robert Scoble
Yeah, I was just thinking that's what Leo should have shot back with, and I was just thinking the same thing about the SUL and how dramatically that's a bigger deal to affect their coverage of Twitter than Leo's getting a pre for a week. I'll try to start being just positive like you suggested earlier, but it makes me wonder if TechCrunch got as many @replies attacking them as Mike... more... - Stephen Pickering
I thought friendfeed was the "coolest app nobody uses"... now we're the mob ;) guess we're moving up in the world guys. - Frankie Warren
lol Matthew -- no, the "Burn Notice" intro goes like this: My name is Robert Scoble. I used to be a social media expert. Until... [VOICE ON PHONE: "Arrington put out a burn notice on you. You're blacklisted."] - Karim
If this has already been posted, I apologize, but the bad side of a mob can be seen here: When a twitter / ff user says he's going to commit suicide and a bunch of people encourage him to do so.... Not a good example of the "mob." - Ben Hanten
Ben: so, a bunch of Twitter users flash a stupid hashtag, it shows up here on FF as being ported from Twitter ( - note the point of origin and how many users here actually used that tag), and somehow that's the mob that Arrington is talking about? - Steven Perez
I agree with Mike too, except for the syphilis comparison (could have used a better analogy).. Emotions + Real-Time communication with the rest of the world can blow matters out of proportions very quickly, and especially so when not everyone reads all 286++ comments.. - Winston Teo
Winston: the problem I have with is with the equating "social media" with "FriendFeed", Seriously, this place is worse than, say, 4chan? Or Digg? Or Stormfront? Really? - Steven Perez
Because Arrington didn't note this as a general problem. He specifically targeted FriendFeed over some of the worst social media sites out there. For that reason alone, his article is laughable. - Steven Perez
@steven Yup, I would say it's not only about FF. But his "theory" makes sense in a general way, IMO. - Winston Teo
Well, welcome to 1997, Winston. Because "mob mentality" has manifested itself since comic book nerds were flaming each other on USENET over whether Hal Jordan or Kyle Rainer was the better Green Lantern. If general assholery was the issue, then not only did Arrington's point hit wildly off the mark, it didn't even land on the same planet. I've been here for a year, and while people do... more... - Steven Perez
Not enough page hits, or not enough fans to drown out the dissenting voices. Arrington et al can hide in their imaginary utopian internet hangouts (as if they exist) and shut out everyone who dares to suggest they're wrong, but they need to stop attacking FriendFeed. It's not the cesspool they pretend it is. - MiniMage
My take is that Arrington doesn't like FF because he can't control what goes on here or what is said about him here. He can't delete the comments on threads (unless they are his own), like he can on his own web site. - Jeff P. Henderson
@Clark heck, "threads" on Twitter are so disorganized that you can barely call them that. *grin* (I realize some of the desktop apps make them easier to review, but still.) - Ken Kennedy
Mr. Arrington has a good point there: aggregating opinions and discussion indeed create online mob. We just saw it in many real examples. - darwin|1q84
it is always easier to lead a mob than a person. - darwin|1q84
I concur, darwin|1q84, especially when no one moment can be the whole truth. Mobs form quickly and often without the *whole* story. real-time, while useful in many contexts as Louis pointed out, can lead to a quick-time mob mentality that gets out of control fast. Great discussion. Brings up a lot of things. - thinfilms
Surprise surprise, Arrington deleted my comment on his thread. As I said above, he really doesn't like it if people disagree with him in "his own territory", does he? - Ian Betteridge
I'm not sure where Mike Arrington was back in the late 90's, but I was smack dab in the middle of a vibrant CNN online community where discussions happened in real time with real names and yeah, there were mobs around certain issues. Anything to do with the Middle East, or Bill Clinton was guaranteed to be a 24/7 shift for the elves who scrubbed the spam and the flames. This isn't new. It's been around since the cave man days. It's only a question of how it's manifest. - Karoli
LOL of my comments over there he removed the one where I argued against Sean MacDhai for calling Michael a Douche. Guess he just wants to continue being the victim. I actually liked MA's stuff and enjoyed the turds he threw out sometimes. But deleting comments supporting him so he can just look more like a victim is low... Guess I'm gone from there.. His comment moderation makes it impossible to carry on a conversation, self serving as it is... - Rasmus Lauridsen
Having stepped back and thought about it, I think that there's a serious point struggling to get out of Arrington's post. He's choosing to blame tools like FriendFeed for people being vitriolic, but real-time tools - like any tool - don't make people do anything. People *choose* to be vitriolic: it's part of their make up, their culture, their approach to life. The problem that I have... more... - Ian Betteridge
The fact that Mike is deleting comments that don't suit his needs and banned Robert S from Tech crunch events tends to prove my suspicion, and this is about control. He doesn't control the Ff conversation and that's what bothers him. - Kim Landwehr from BuddyFeed
It strikes me that Friendfeed tends to fuel invective out of partisanship or loyalty because threads like this one and the TWIT episode thread attract groupies. The bile comes from what the spewers must see as the most noble of motives -- sticking up for their Friend. - Amyloo
the best analogy for friendfeed he could come up with was syphilis? Yeah that's not link bait. I'm sure the guys at friendfeed are just thrilled with Mike today. - timepilot
I think Mike got used to shouting fire in a theater and he is now upset that the theater goers are organized and calling him on it. give me a break - timepilot
Discussion of these questions is welcome with the understanding that the dialogue is invigorating. - Mike Chelen
Kevin: the praise for twitter is that it is less effective for communication, friendfeed should be thankful for the nice compliment ;) - Mike Chelen
Andrew Terry: the post actually is much more insightful if taken to apply more generally, however it does single out friendfeed as somehow qualitatively worse than blogs or twitter :D - Mike Chelen
It is rather silly that FF's supposed Achilles heel is that it's too effective at bringing crowds together. Mike's unspoken counterpoint benefit to Twitter is that megaphone-style broadcasting is still possible without too much interruption from the public. - Daniel J. Pritchett
I prefer twitter because individuals are individuals on twitter and there is nothing meaningful to say in thirty seconds in a flame war or a thread with 322 replies - Michele Costabile
We could certainly use some threading options in the comments UI, maybe even some upvoting and other dynamic resorting. These big threads tend to buckle under their own weight. - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM
Daniel, I like time sequencing on big threads. I'd like to see simpler respond identifiers so when someone says "Jason," I know which of us billion or so Jasons he's talking to. I much prefer this to seeing comments floating around based on up and down votes. - Jason Nunnelley
I did throw in the qualifier "optional" to my feature suggestion. I guess y'all's vote cancels out mine :P ( - Daniel J. Pritchett from IM
Daniel, welcome to the democratic process. Facts and logic need not participate ;) - Jason Nunnelley
Michele: individuals can be seen clearly in friendfeed once familiar with the interface, and followed or unfollowed similar to twitter - Mike Chelen
Guys, Mike should remove the post from Techcrunch or else we will start a group to protest against him - Michael_techie
Guys, please join this group to protest against Michael Arrington - Michael_techie
You created a group called "Hate Mike Arrington?" Wow. - Mark
Yep, we should show how big is Friendfeed - Michael_techie
Um, no. - Steven Perez from IM
Sorry @Michael_techie that's a fail. I think its time to move on and think about more positive stuff. It's 22 hours since @scobleizer started this thread, its like years in realtime web. Seas have already flowed under the proverbial bridge on this one. - Rasmus Lauridsen
Yes, you won't see threads like this any more. Scoble wants more positive threads and is trying to make up with Mike Arrington who has denounced their friendship after several years. - Mark
@Matthew hey we should pile up this conversation in separate room - Michael_techie
@matthew Are you promoting Michael arrington - Michael_techie
As a FF user, It really hurts when some one call us as mob - Michael_techie
@matthew, He shouldn't call the whole FF users as mob, coz he got some hatred messages - Michael_techie
Black Sabbath said it best: When you listen to fools, the mob rules. - Andy Dustman
Jay Rosen
I'm sorry for being a while male. In fact I think it's an outrage that I am one.
Twice this month I got invited to do something (e.g., be on a panel, or be one of several interviewees for a project) and both times I asked to see the whole list of people I'd be associated with if I said Yes. In both cases, my first reaction was "why all white males?" In both cases the person was taken aback, totally not realizing this was the case. The second response was "I want... more... - Bora Zivkovic
+100 Bora! - Deborah Fitchett
We've been having these issues for years. Every year someone screws up and gets called out. Every year. I wonder when we'll have a year when we have a diverse panel of experts on stage at all conferences? - Robert Scoble
And I've reported on documentation of this in many professions, not just new media and high tech. Getting women on the program appears to be amazingly difficult...nearly as bad as when Harriet Beecher Stowe went to England on her book tour for Uncle's Tom Cabin and her husband had to give her speech for her while she sat in the balcony, looking properly demure and wife-like. Sheesh. - dontgetcaught
Can anyone parse this, or make any sense of it? "....white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models. " - Jay Rosen
Thank you, Bora, Robert, and dontgetcaught. - Ayşe E.
Jay: the thesis is that if white males are the only ones ever on stage that we'll only discuss, and build, things that serve white males or have white males on them. I have to say that in this day and age to have only white males on stage means you've failed as a conference organizer. - Robert Scoble
Bora your response brings back when I was working YearlyKos the first year. I gave them a list of speakers of various stripes. Noted that most of the people they asked were white guys. Someone else mentioned it, and the chairperson gave the same reasons you got above. What pissed me off was the "who are the political female/bloggers of color?" after I gave her list of 500 people. Sigh. - Anika
I agree that politically, that is a FAIL. But sorry, Robert. Intellectually, I cannot take seriously the idea that "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models." I think it's a piece of shit. Embarrassing to everyone, frankly. - Jay Rosen
Jay: I didn't say that the thesis is correct or that I agree with it, but there is something to having representation. We didn't like taxation without representation, and I've gotta say that it's a bit wacky at minimum not to have speaker panels reflect the larger population. The fact that so many conference organizers only invite white males to speak is evidence of a lack of representation and it is wrong, not just politically, either. - Robert Scoble
The idea that tech is the domain of white males (and young, white males may I add) reeks of outdated and ignorant presumptions. - Jack&Cleo
Turn it around. Imagine you attend tons of conferences and in the audience are tons of white males but on stage there are only females. Wouldn't that make you angry? Wouldn't it make you wonder why white males can't get on stage? - Robert Scoble
Jack: we're not even talking about tech here. We're talking about journalism conferences. - Robert Scoble
I am the world's worst leftist. Because I think the reasoning on display on i is appallingly bad. - Jay Rosen
Having different sex-ratios at conferences completely changes the tone. I tried mightily to make sure my conference is as close to 50:50 as possible, both on stage and in the audience and I explained in great detail how and why here: - Bora Zivkovic
Jay: they have an agenda on that site, sure, but here's the key sentence: "We ask you to stand with us instead, to create a sustainable new journalism that includes and supports all of us, including women and people of color." Includes is the key word. - Robert Scoble
Right. Because I have stood for excluding people from the journalism system my whole career! I know, I know, it's not about me. But "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models" is about me. - Jay Rosen
Jay, it's clear you vehemently disagree with the idea that "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models," but you haven't really explained *why* you disagree. are you taking it as a personal affront? - Karim
Jay: well, if you are defending a conference that has only men on stage, that's what you're doing. Or explain to me why you are defending putting a panel of all men on stage? - Robert Scoble
Maybe I am not understanding your argument, but you really are coming across as exclusionary here Jay. - Robert Scoble
Maybe when we have a diverse set of genuine experts, we'll get a diverse set of faces on stage. The list of "candidates" shown on that website all seem to be pretty focused on the "women" issue, rather than the "business model", "innovation" or "community" issues, which to me are pretty color and sex-blind issues. - Jack Jones
No, I think a conference that only had white men on stage would be a problem. I think a conference that only had captains of industry on stage would be a problem, but no less so than a conference that only had white men. I think a conference that only had developers on stage would be a problem. But no less so than a conference that only had white men on stage. I think a conference that only had pro journalists on stage would be a problem. But no less so than a conference that only had white men on stage. - Jay Rosen
I haven't seen your defense of "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models," yet Robert. Is that a sound notion? To me, it's a piece of shit. I haven't defended all white male conferences. I apologized for being a white male as a sarcastic way of saying that "white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models" is a dumb idea. - Jay Rosen
How do I get 50:50 sex ratio for my conference? Step 1: post a call for speakers. Step 2: monitor e-mail for an hour, at the end of which I have filled half the slots with men. Step 3: I spend several weeks contacting, one at a time, women who I already have built good working relationships with, discuss in depth their potential contributions, and only then they say Yes. People who have... more... - Bora Zivkovic
Step 4 explain to the any white male speakers you do wind up with that all their ideas--every single one!--will only produce a white male dominated science, media, economy, culture, polity. - Jay Rosen
I never said that. Women will not design different software or run different blogs, or whatever. But the room full of men is unpleasant atmosphere even for me. - Bora Zivkovic
a captain of industry, or a developer, or a professional journalist is something you become, a title you earn. whereas i gather one is born white and male. if you're hiring an employee, it's ok to restrict yourself to captains of industry, developers, or professional journalists. if you restrict yourself to white males, the EEOC wants to have a chat with you. - Karim
YOU never said that, but THEY very definitely said that "As members of Women, Action & the Media, we know all too well that white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models." Is that a sound notion, Bora? - Jay Rosen
Jay: I agree with you that the goal of diversity is good and the idea that guys can't design things/systems/models/whatever for non guys is faulty. I wouldn't try to sell diversity on those terms. - Robert Scoble
I would like to see definitions of male-dominated media models and female-dominated media models so I can compare before I can say anything about it. But my point was that, in organizing conferences, "...when a group hasn't been at the table, sometimes it takes more than an invitation to get them there." (from... more... - Bora Zivkovic
"when a group hasn't been at the table, sometimes it takes more than an invitation to get them there.". That's really a two way street isn't it. The conference is surely losing out by not having diverse voices, but as I diverse voice, you can hardly complain at being under-represented just because you didn't feel enough of an overture was made to get you to attend - the onus is on you... more... - Jack Jones
Definitions of white-male-dominated media models? Huh? You don't get definitions of terms like that. You get just enough concept to bring the PC across. Go ahead: try to find in their statement a definition, or a link where we could learn more about what this strange notion means. - Jay Rosen
While you're on stage everyone is out in the hallway schmoozing. - Dave Winer
Dave: actually I am trying not to attend as many conferences. I tend to learn more at the Ritz and the mojitos are better too. - Robert Scoble
Jay, i assumed that by "white-male-dominated media models," they were talking about things like Katie Couric being the first solo female anchor of the evening news on one of the three broadcast networks in the U.S. or that 42% of newsrooms had no minorities in 1998 ( or that women only made up 37.5% of newsroom employees in 2004, and minorities less than 14% ( i'm just guessing, though. - Karim
is your point that groupthink and in-group bias ( don't apply to white male journalists, or that they don't apply to white males? - Karim
You're not looking at the statement, Karim. You are zoning out into general points about imbalance in newsrooms. The statement says that the three people on this panel, because they are white males, will only discuss commend and imagine something PC mush minds call "white-male-dominated media models." Don't ask me to define what that phrase means. I don't think it has any specific... more... - Jay Rosen
If males are on the stage, then everyone takes picture of the males on the stage, then all those pictures show up on covers of glossy magazines, then those males are models. Those who appear on many magazine covers are super-models and the magazines that carry them are then male-dominated. Is that the sense of the word "model" in this conversation? Sounds like I am joking, but really - is it about perception? And how does that perception help making the field more diverse? - Bora Zivkovic
Jay, no, in fact, it does not say that at all. it says, quote, "...we know all too well that white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models." now, they did not support that statement, but it did not strike me as ludicrous, given fairly common cognitive biases, and what little i know about how few women and minorities are in the media. clearly you think it is ludicrous -- you are foaming at the mouth -- but you haven't explained why. - Karim
"you are foaming at the mouth" -- ?? - Dave Winer
"foaming at the mouth" = really upset (e.g. "it's an outrage") without being able to coherently explain why. apoplectic. all i'm getting is "arrrrghh, i hate political correctness, arrrgh" - Karim
You know how those white males are, with their elevated testosterone levels making them act all hormonal. - Jim Norris
lol! - Karim
As I just wrote to a friend who informed me that it's not about me...(trust me, I know that) Fine, then just say, yes we know it's insulting to the panelists to say they are only capable of thinking up gendered media models but we need to insult them a bit for the greater good and to get the point across to conference organizers. You know, have a little intellectual honesty. Yes, we're... more... - Jay Rosen
Have you tried emailing them directly? It seems like they might have gotten the same result with less drama by sending their feedback privately before posting an accusatory-sounding open letter. - Jim Norris
An individual male person might bring in individual ideas that will appeal to females. (Hence my first comment in this thread.) But male-dominated *conversation* will produce a male-*dominated* set of ideas. That is, if the majority of conversors are male, then the majority of ideas produced will be focused on issues that males care about, in ways that males care about. - Deborah Fitchett
Jim - you might be interested in googling "the tone argument". Most of the top results that come up discuss it in the context of racism but the same general dynamics occur in the context of sexism too. The various ways it's a problem are too long for a FF comment but the google results were by and large pretty good last time I checked. - Deborah Fitchett
Ah, that's how it's called - the "tone argument" - it drives me crazy (see and ) Interesting stuff on Google. Thanks for that. Also, something that Jack Jones said above - "fight for it an you'll get it" attitude is very male - shy women are... more... - Bora Zivkovic
I think where you sit does affect where you stand. I think there is truth in the notion that experience affects perspective. I also think there is a lot of truth in the general claim that diversity of inputs leads to better outputs. I further believe--and this is why I am the world's worst leftist--that the experience of being an outsider to an industry or profession, as against an... more... - Jay Rosen
Jay, my first question to you was "are you taking it as a personal affront?" -- and it sort of sounds like you are. i don't know if you're "too emotional to make an argument" in general, but you haven't done a good job of explaining that you felt *personally insulted,* as if someone called you racist or sexist. the sad fact is that people have cognitive biases and blind spots. sadder... more... - Karim
Jay, I'm sorry, but this is the kind of POV you can pretty much only get from being a white man. Over in the fiction world, Mary Anne Mohanroj wrote a piece on something a bit related: - see parts I.2 and I.3 specifically... - Andrew C (✔)
Jay, you're right: those differences are equally important. But that doesn't mean that if you have one difference you no longer need the other. We need insiders and outsiders; *and* we need men and women; *and* we need white people and PoC; *and* we need various classes; *and* etc etc. - Deborah Fitchett
And since I only represent two of those signifying differences (academic, outsider) I think you would agree, Deborah, that I was right to apologize for not representing the preferred ones. - Jay Rosen
"preferred"? Come on, that's not what that site you're angry about said. - Andrew C (✔)
Andrew, if you're going to point out what people actually said, it will interfere with Jay's sense of righteous indigation over the idea of including women. ;-) - Karim
I have explained myself 3-4 times, Karim. Your response is to ask that I explain myself. *shrug* Look... That white-male-dominated conversations produce white-male-dominated media models is insulting to YOU, Karim, as well as me. It is an insult to Bora. It is an insult to Andrew C. It is an insult to Robert S. It is degrading to the people who wrote it, and to the people intimidated by... more... - Jay Rosen
Dump it, Jay. MediaBistro has effectively changed the topic you agreed to talk about. - gnarlytrombone
Jay, by my count, you've explained yourself once, in that most recent comment ("I think you sit [...]") ; the other times you were mostly repeating your initial, hard-for-us-simple-folk-to-understand sentiment. And, I don't think you should be speaking for me. I mean if it were me, I would espouse a similar sentiment to the one that's got you up in arms, except I would hedge with 'usually' and 'most of the time' or things like that. - Andrew C (✔)
i'm not insulted, Jay. i have a huge imagination. i am capable of "imaginative identification." but the sad fact is, if the alien mothership ever lands on earth and they want ONE person on their Panel of Humans to speak for human females, or white people, i am probably not the person they should pick. lol - Karim
We agree. - Jay Rosen
Also, I don't think that people /can't/ identify with others, I fully think they can. But! I also think that one cannot simply say that "oh, I was poor, so I know what it's like to be a person of color in America". They're two different things. They might be similar in being in positions of less power in society, but they're not the same. - Andrew C (✔)
Jay, "We agree," so guess what? when the aliens say "Hey maybe we should get a woman for the Panel of Humans since females make up about half the population," i'm not going to throw a damn fit about how fucking *PC* the aliens are. lol - Karim
Karim, is it a homogeneous alien race, or a diverse set of inter-galactic beings? :) - Micah
Andrew, the Gets You Up to Speed post was a good read, thanks for linking it. - Micah
Well, long as I'm here, the particular "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" link in that essay has gone 404ed, so here's another: - Andrew C (✔)
:-D Micah, i'm guessing diverse... since the homogenous ones tend not to be interested in panels where various points of view are represented. the homogenous ones tend to go all Hive Mind on you, shun the different, claim that you are not of the Body and do not conform to the Will of Landru... :-D - Karim
+1 Andrew - Karim
Last thing: - I guess Barry Deutsch archived McIntosh's article in part to provide context for this male privilege checklist, and it's certainly something worth reading. - Andrew C (✔)
Jay, no, you needn't apologise for being a man. You needn't even apologise for receiving the privileges that men receive in our society without ever striving for, asking for, or noticing them. It'd be ridiculous to apologise for something you didn't *do*, and I've seen no-one ask you to. But if you wanted to apologise for mocking people attempting to increase equality - that wouldn't be ridiculous at all because it's something you did. - Deborah Fitchett
""fight for it an you'll get it" attitude is very male - shy women are automatically excluded". I don't think I put it quite that way, but I did say you have to participate - it's not solely up to conference organizers to be especially inviting to women etc. "Shy middle-aged white men" are also at a disadvantge in public speaking, but I don't see much fuss being made there - if you want... more... - Jack Jones
In fact I'll revise that, and say that let's value everyone equally as human beings, and give everyone equal *opportunities* to achieve. But clearly, people are NOT equal. Scobble has a zillion followers on here, gets invited to aircraft carriers and to speak on panels. I do not. Why? Because either I don't have as much of interest to say, or simply that I don't say it. It's totally right that conferences would call Scobble, and not me. - Jack Jones
Jack, you failed to quote the second half of Bora's statement. Shy women, just like shy men, are excluded, sure. But he also pointed out that aggressive women are punished for being bitches. Aggressive men don't have that problem (or at least have to be a *lot* more aggressive than women need to be to be censured). Men have a winning strategy available; women have a catch-22. See eg - Deborah Fitchett
Well... As some one who programs an event (EmTech, held on MIT's campus every year in September: I can tell you that we think the most important criteria for a speaker should be that they are articulate, expert, and highly intelligent. Those criteria being met, we strive for diversity, broadly defined - but we don't think that diversity, qua... more... - Jason Pontin
I guess we'll just have to disagree, then. I believe that diversity is intellectually stimulating no matter what the topic at hand is. - Victor Ganata
People have diverse definitions of diversity. Some see the stimulant you mention as related to variety of inputs, as well as the purpose of the event. If we can't look at what we are trying to accomplish event by event, and adjust the variables that need to be worried about in the diversity equation, then we are not serious about diversity. That's one view. Others are more narrow and... more... - Jay Rosen
some people would look at a picture of the panelists ( and say there's no diversity there. "why," they might say, "the first two people could even be twins -- same jacket, same haircut, same eyeglasses, same lopsided, shit-eating smirk." but i say no! just because they *look* like frakking clones, doesn't mean there's no *cognitive* diversity. one of them probably says "to-MAY-to" and the other probably says "to-MAH-to." - Karim
then once i've convinced everyone about how wonderfully diverse the panel is, the existing imbalances will be perpetuated, and women will continue to underrepresented in journalism. - Karim
Thanks for the demo on irreconcilable. - Jay Rosen
How does a fish know what water is? - Andrew C (✔)
you quitting the panel, Jay? or does Angry White Male deign to share the stage with a woman? ;-) - Karim
Thank you for asking. MediaBistro says they have been in fruitful contact with people from The Center for New Words and they consider it a positive outcome that will strength future programming. I will be speaking on the panel as advertised, and they will be adding speaker(s) of their choosing. From my end the matter is closed with no change in the status quo. My views are my views. Cheers. - Jay Rosen
glad you reconsidered your words yesterday (quote "Which is why I will probably be off this panel tomorrow") and Angry White Male is apparently a little less Angry today. :-D - Karim
Robert Scoble
How to tell who the good guys are, by Andrew Sullivan. "They're the ones who sometimes rescue a beleaguered riot policeman." Great point! RT @rizzn -
How to tell who the good guys are, by Andrew Sullivan. "They're the ones who sometimes rescue a beleaguered riot policeman." Great point! RT @rizzn
Wow - great picture - Jesse Stay
he could be performing a judo hip throw. video is probably needed to verify the picture. - sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Is still Love making the world going round? - Bita
i would love to see this image travel through the media. - MikeAmundsen
I saw the previous images of this scene and was trying to figure out if he WAS helping or not. - Kreg Steppe
Police in Iran charged at protesters using their motorbikes, in a bid to break up a street rally. One policeman crashed his bike during the charge and was helped to safety by protesters. An Italian journalist caught the incident on his mobile phone. Video courtesy of Corriere della Sera TV @ - Chris Zlatis
Now this is an amazing photograph, serving as a great reminder that humanity is capable at once of both terrible and great things. I hope it is one of assistance, much as that very moving video above showed. - Nick Wade
the video is great, too. shows that, even at crazy times, there are good-hearted people acting to protect anyone in need. i wonder how often this has been happening over the last few days. - MikeAmundsen
Good luck, Mamoot! - Ayşe E.
I saw these images last night, and I'm heartened to learn that the protesters were in fact helping this guy :) Thanks Mamoot! - guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Mamoot, stay strong. Stay safe. You will prevail. - Uche Ogbuji
Good luck to you in your fight for your rights. I hope you are successful and may God keep you safe! - Californian
Marmoot we are with you! - Francine Hardaway
@mamoot: be safe. there are many ways to resist; some very subtle. time is always on your side. - MikeAmundsen
WOWOWO that is awesome!! that is a good guy for sure! - Susan Beebe
sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq: watch and you'll see that they really are helping the cop. - Chris Charabaruk
@mamoot Good luck and stay safe. - imperator3733
thx Chris Zlatis & Chris Charabaruk = WIN for the video links. - sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
This one has my vote for the Pulitzer... - John Fenzel
I bet the guy in green got a beating once he got the policeman to the safety of the riot police - Viran
They look like family. - Garin Kilpatrick
:( - Exir
Stay safe, Mamoot - Marci Golub
@Mamoot we are all watching and care very much about your freedom! - Ryan Petty
Louis Gray
Caterina Fake’s Hunch: “Yahoo Answers Is Not The Answer.” -
I just don't get all these answer sites. Maybe it's just me. I just tried out Hunch and it made me shrug my shoulders. Flickr, on the other hand, when I first saw it had me captivated. - Robert Scoble
Here's Technology Review's take on @caterina's Hunch: - Jason Pontin
Robert Scoble
This photo should win a Pulitzer Prize. I never expected to see photos like this one come out of Iran. Amazing: -
This photo should win a Pulitzer Prize. I never expected to see photos like this one come out of Iran. Amazing: is the site that seems to have originated this photo. - Robert Scoble
I wish I knew who shot the photo. Anyone know? - Robert Scoble
Absolut!! - Ronald
No country is one dimensional. That's why I'm so mad at the local media. - Mo Kargas
Robert: don't think we should unveil them, otherwise they'll be arrested ;) - Nir Ben Yona
Absolutely incredible - Michael Krigsman
It is pretty remarkable. It was so good when I saw it last night on Twitter I was afraid it might be a fake. - Jeff Namnum
I'm afraid to think what happened to this brave woman. - Orli Yakuel
Jill: thank you. Here's his Facebook profile: and his photo page: Incredible photo, best one to capture the event yet. - Robert Scoble
I saw so many of this kind of photo with my own eyes yesterday,I was there when they beat us,our people, to death just for yelling out where's our vote?!! - TaaTaa from fftogo
Front picture of this women: - Orli Yakuel
Alex: the photographer is brave too. Wow, what close work. - Robert Scoble
Iran "tankwoman" - K.D.
Robert: your tweet is now the popular here - Johni Fisher
None of this reporting -- None of it -- would be possible without online tools. Robert -- there's the 2010 Web! I seem to remember your earlier question (a few months ago) about the definition of journalism. This is it. It's not up to the "paid journalists" at the NY Times or Chicago Tribune anymore. It's up to you, me, people like @jamesbuck, and the person who took this photo and put it online. - Curt Mercadante
Curt: amen! - Robert Scoble
I'm not really surprised, Iranians are a lot more empowered than people in the West think. It is *not* Saudi Arabia! - Iphigenie
Thanks for getting this out. It's so easy to get lost in tweeting about our silly mundane lives that we forget how important images like this can result in making people aware and helping to make a difference in the world. - mrsha
More live updates about #Iran can be found in here: - Nir Ben Yona
Amazing photo - thanks for finding it & sharing it Robert! - Gurpreet
What happened to her after all? - Christine Yang
I thought the same thing last night. Maybe the Iranians finally are willing to make some change. - Tom Searing
Photo of the year. - Mike Doeff
moment! - reality
چی میشه آخرش - Hamid
Curt, right, after listening to Scoble on a panel about the future of Journalism, and he was the only one "journalizing" it via Kyte, I wrote a post that the future of Journalism is a video camera or in this case a camera. I remember that it was the camera and video camera that stopped Vietnam for instance - Stephen Pickering
And, putting aside for a bit whether or not CNN ignored the story -- we're now getting news that NBC's Tehran office may have been raided and the BBC has been told to "get lost." Under oppressive, censoring regimes like we have in Iran, North Korea and China -- citizen journalists empowered by new communications tools will be the ONLY way we get accurate news from these regions. - Curt Mercadante
Curt Mercadante 100+ - Bora Zivkovic
the detail- the untied shoe lace. wow. - anna sauce
Inspiring. Let's hope the government falls. Because if it doesn't, there will probably be vicious repression. - Bob Morris (polizeros)
روز زن مبارک - hamidreza
I am the photographer of this photo - Amir
It's really a fantastic photo Amir, do you know the woman in the photo? - BryanSchuetz
WOW. How can you say anything else? - Sheryl
I love the fact that people start setting up proxy servers for the people in Iran: - Holger Eilhard
Shocking stuff - Tyson Key
If anyone ever doubted the revolutionary, real-time impact of Social Media, this photo easily dispels those misconceptions.... - John Fenzel
Amir: you have a fan for life. I hope you do win the Pulitzer Prize. I think you got the iconic photo of the election protests. This one should hang in Newseum's Pulitzer Gallery. Can you tell us how you shot it, and give us more details about what was going on in your head as you pressed the shutter button? To everyone else, don't you love friendfeed? - Robert Scoble
Amir: when I took photojournalism at San Jose State University one quote stuck in my mind from all those classes over the years "If your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough." That quote was from Robert Capa, here's an article in Time Magazine about it: You have gotten close enough. Congrats, I can't even imagine trying to get this close. I hope all comes out well for your country and you. - Robert Scoble
Amir, what do you shoot with? - EricaJoy
Jay Rosen
Because, @charlesarthur, I don't think @anamariecox should have 30 times as much authority as I do in a Google search of Twitter.
Funny, this made me notice that I'm subscribed to AMC's Twitter but not Rosen's. It's probably because Rosen participates here as well, where AMC does not. - Rob H.
Rosen | AMC: apples and oranges. Different product offerings. - Mitch Nauffts
Huh? You lost me. What does that have to do with the distorting influence of the suggsted users list? - Jay Rosen
Paul Kedrosky
Does Nate's analysis mean that there is no Iranian fraud? No, but read it, and then read the comments
Jay Rosen
If Google launches a microblogging search engine and # of followers is a factor then the suggested users list is a problem
Leah Culver
At Ruby on Rails Outreach event and won a very thick book in a raffle. Oh, "The Rails Way"... your title taunts me.
Paul Buchheit
The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw -
The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw
The ‘Coffin Corner’ and a ‘Mesoscale’ Maw
"The doomed Airbus A-330-200 was flying ever so close to its maximum altitude – in a zone pilots call the “Coffin Corner”. It refers to the edge of so-called “flight envelope” of an aircraft. At this altitude, the air is much thinner and that significantly narrows the swath of speed at which the airplane can safely operate. They will stop flying (stall) at a much higher speed (true airspeed) than they would on approach to an airport at sea level. At the other end of the safe speed spectrum is the sound barrier. The wings on an airliner like the A-330 are not designed to break the speed of sound. So you see the squeeze play as a plane flies toward the Coffin Corner: the margin between the between the high and low speed limits gets thinner and thinner (along with the air). Matter of fact, given its estimated weight, altitude and the outside air temperature (which also affects air density), AF 447 was flying through the eye of a speed needle only about 25 knots (28 mph) wide." - Paul Buchheit from Bookmarklet
wow - great read there paul, thx! - Chris Heath
such a puzzle. the thing is, the A330 flight computer should "know" when the aircraft is approaching the "Coffin Corner." it is designed to keep the plane from getting into trouble. though it looks like the last ACARS messages from the plane are basically the flight computers saying they are confused, could a human please drive now (autopilot off, autothrottle off, switch to Alternate Law). - Karim
What a trip. What a tragedy. - Brent - Yes I am
Just terrible. I can't stop thinking about the people on that doomed flight. God rest their souls. - Mitch Nauffts
the "Coffin Corner" on a 747: airspeed on the left, altitude on the right. the red/purple bricks starting at 288 knots airspeed & going up indicate the beginning of Mach Critical, where the airflow gets disrupted because the plane is moving too fast. the yellow line starting at 258 kts & going down is the stall speed, where the... more... - Karim
or rather the computer has to keep the airspeed between the two points. :-) if there's a small buffet margin of a few knots (difference between the Mach buffet speed and the stall buffet speed), the greater the chances that a manuever will get the plane into trouble. turning the plane can reduce the airspeed (thus causing it to stall), or pitching the nose down can increase the airspeed (thus causing a "Mach tuck" and pointing the nose down even more...) - Karim
Karim, are you sure that photo is from a 747? Mach .86 at that altitude is 500kts, not 275. That's 275m/s, not knots, which makes the "coffin corner" 60kts, not 30. - Gabe
Gabe, i was assuming the speed was CAS. (does an EFIS display meters/sec.?) the calculator here shows that, for an altitude of 38,000 ft., temp. of -38 C, and speed of Mach .86, that results in a Calibrated Air Speed (CAS) of 275. - Karim
UAFlt 175 , an alleged 767, according to the video evidence, appeared to travel over 500 mph @ 700 ft., and was not dive-bombing. According to Boeing, that couldn't be. I'd like opinion of pilots on this photo the background is a still from a video allegedly taken from Battery Park by M. Hezarkhani, and promoted in various media. - Marg Uerite
i am so relieved to find a thread full of savvy and tech interested pilots. - Marg Uerite
Marg, at 700ft the speed of sound is 764mph, so a plane going Mach .86 could be going 660mph. Of course few jets have the thrust to sustain flight at that height and speed for very long, but you could dive from altitude to build up a speed of over 660mph (your wings probably wouldn't fall off until over 700mph) and go for quite a ways at level flight before drag slowed you down to 500mph. - Gabe
I was not aware that a 767 was able to break the sound barrier. Thank you for your answer that is very helpful. The "plane" in the vids appear to come in level, from at least a mile out. Part of the problem is that different vids show different trajectories. One vid *does show a dive, but does not match the others. - Marg Uerite
No, I never said a 767 could break the sound barrier. It can dive at 91% of the speed of sound, which near sea level is pretty fast. Once it comes out of that dive, it would cover a mile in maybe 10 seconds. - Gabe
Thanks, Gabe. - Marg Uerite
Jay Rosen
Last point on this. "Give us the resources; we know what needs to be done." AOL agreed: the pros know. Result:
Possibly doomed to failure. It looks like a newspaper; seems organized like a newspaper. When will print people understand - the electronic medium is intolerant of navigational tricks smuggled from print? - Jason Pontin
Someone needs to tell professional journalists than "paying people real salaries" is not a business model but a cost item. - Jay Rosen
True, that. Also, don't we have a whole bunch of these sites, with established loyal, readerships and vigorous communities? - Jason Pontin
Jay Rosen
Background: AOL to start a politics site That became this: You make the call: worth funding?
Amazing - MugeCerman
2nd from the top's my summer cottage. - sofarsoShawn
I'd hate to clean those places ,-) - Jess
Of course I forgot one of the best ones here: Castle Babelsberg - sofarsoShawn
Craig Newmark
Three or four ravens out there, singing to each other, and by "singing" I mean, well, I hope they don't do that at six am.
Poynter Institute
Romenesko: Boston Newspaper Guild members reject cuts: | Poynter Online The vote was 277 "n..
Harry McCracken
Sad computer mag section @ Frys: old PC Worlds, random interlopers, empty space.
Sad computer mag section @ Frys: old PC Worlds, random interlopers, empty space.
I noticed that on my last visit. It's like all the distributors have pulled out. - Jack&Cleo
Jay Rosen
Read Dan Gillmor on the meme: will ____ save journalism?
Tim O'Reilly
New from O'Reilly: Using Google App Engine Notice the trend: bit by bit, the Internet OS is becoming a reality
Dave Winer
Who do the people of Twitter follow? -
I hereby dub this "Dave's Suggested Users List" - should we create a script that follows everyone on this list for you? :) - Jesse Stay
BTW I just got off the phone with Erik Shurman and we had a great time talking about this - Jesse Stay
So, what immediately strikes me about this is: the employees of Twitter hardly read the early adopters and power users of Twitter. Jason Calacanis has 6 followers; Chris Anderson of Wired has merely 5. Walt Mossberg has 4; David Pogue has 3. I didn't see you, Dave, at all. And they don't follow much in the way of journalism: the Economist has only a few readers. Whom do they follow?... more... - Jason Pontin
Jay Rosen
"It's not about saving newspapers, it's about saving journalism!!!!" Tim Rutten didn't get that memo
Newspapers - all paid publications, really - as they are traditionally constituted cannot be saved. All things change or die - newspapers amongst them: - Jason Pontin
Jason Calacanis
Say what you will about newspapers failing, nytimes on Sunday for $5 is best deal on the planet. Happy sunday folks. -
Jason, you are triple posting to Friendfeed, one from Twitter, one from Flickr, one from your weblog. - Sean OBrien
Scott Rosenberg
New York Times Reporters & Twitter: An Ethnography -
"While many reporters are positively using Twitter to spread news and talk to readers, some still need lessons on how to effectively use the site. Young reporters have an advantage because they already know how to use social media and they are using it to help them in their reporting. Although older reporters are beginning to embrace social media, they may not be familiar with all the benefits of using it in the professional world and need to trained in the potential uses social media sites provide." - Scott Rosenberg
Dave Winer
Dave Winer
Jounalism can survive without a bailout. The superiority and arrogance of journalists can't.
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