@Charles - I agree. I posted about it ( http://is.gd/3GQv ) . The one real benefit of an Obama win here is the momentum it will give Palin's ascendancy as a potential candidate in 4 years.
- Soulhuntre
from twhirl
Focused on what? Not answering the questions? McCain stuttering...lol....what ugh..er..ah..about Obama?
- Spencer
You have to understand, Leo drank the Obama koolaid a long time ago. I don't listen to Leo for politics.
- ComicList
I like Leo, I really do - but he is a kind of run with the crowd kind of guy on both tech and social issues.
- Soulhuntre
from twhirl
Palin's political ambitions to a larger stage are finished. Period. Kaput.
- Alex Scoble
Used to be a publicist - some people are just great spin doctors. you can't gauge by it. take a cue from women: judge a man by his actions not words :)
- Patricia
"The one real benefit of an Obama win here is the momentum it will give Palin's ascendancy as a potential candidate in 4 years." ok now that's a debate stopper.
- David HC Soul
Hussein folowers will never let the facts get in their way. It's not a matter of who looks Statesman like, geez. Barrack Hussein has missed nearly 70% of the senate votes since taking office, very statesman like huh Leo?
- Henry DeBardeleben
from twhirl
I takes a certain kind of person to keep referring to him as Barrack Hussein or better yet...just Hussein.
- cmiper
@David - and true. A McCain win would see Palin spend 4 years expending her popularity defending a man who would be subject to nonstop, viscious attacks. An Obama win forces him to actually do things (instead of just promise them) and next election he won't be so able to sell the "hope and change" mantra so often used by the outside party. Palin can gain more experience, stay on the scene and gather momentum then come back in 4 and it will be a whole new ballgame.
- Soulhuntre
from twhirl
That'll give palin four years to get a clue. She better study hard.
- Chris Baskind
Sen. Obama seems more like a spin artist tonight. Sen. McCain made point and counter point to their differences.
- ChiliMac
from twhirl
Time already has on the issue of Palin...she's unelectable to anything but state office and probably done there as well.
- Alex Scoble
You know, Henry, making up something like that is pretty ballsy when there's this thing called the Internet. "Barack Obama missed just 11 votes out of 645 for the two-year period. That’s a 98.3% record, putting him among the most frequent Senators in attendance. But McCain was still near the bottom of the list, missing 9% of his total votes- that was the fifth worst." http://www.eyesonobama.com/blog...
- Leo Laporte
Jason: you got pwnd. Now why don't you shut up please for the next four years. Thanks. Charles: there is no way in hell Palin will be back next time.
- Robert Scoble
President Obama vs. The Smiler in four years? I can live with that.
- Steven Perez
And how many did McCain miss, Carroll? Carroll?
- Leo Laporte
Good lord, how is it possible to miss something so obvious: Sarah Palin will be a small footnote in American history. Nearly forgotten after November.
- Sean McBride
OK, since you can't spell google, I'll tell you. "Of 643 issues that have reached the Senate floor, the Arizona Senator and GOP presidential hopeful has cast votes on just 231 of them. All together, that amounts to a 35.9% job performance." In fact, the worst in the Senate this year. The point is it's normal for Presidential campaigners to miss votes in the senate, but McCain missed 65% - much more than half.
- Leo Laporte
John McCain has missed 420 votes (64.1%) during the current Congress. (same source: washingtonpost.com)
- Glen, Bespectacled Elder
People who attack Obama with the Hussein rhetoric are trying to stir up terrorist violence against an American presidential candidate. Appalling and despicable.
- Sean McBride
I can see the first Presidential debate in 2012: "Can I call you Hussein? Because I practiced some gosh-darned perky zingers using that."
- Chris Baskind
To bad for obama he has to vote YES or NO or not at all and not present as he did in Illinois a 130 times.
- Csturm
right on the nose Leo. Better late than never.
- Wo
Leo is very much a "run with the crowd" kind of guy. It serves him well, considering where he lives. Leo: as a huge fan of your work, I must ask you to please stop with the politics. With due respect sir, you really don't know what you are talking about, and it tarnishes the image that some of us have of you.
- Art Lindsey III
I suppose if you feel OK with voting "present" instead of Yes or No it's pretty easy to just show up and push the button.
- Soulhuntre
@Art - I fully support Leo talking about his political views here, as I do anyone. Yes, people will judge folks on their politics if you put them out there but if your cool with that then go for it.
- Soulhuntre
To make it really clear, Chris, you perhaps can say "that God is not genetic" :)
- Hayk H.
I have a feeling I know what your talking about and I totally agree.
- Adam Helweh
You mean like how some people are disposed to Mac vs. PC?
- Mark Dykeman
one might argue you could be predisposed to certain types of religion or none at all... but I certainly agree your parents' religion isn't necessarily your own...
- ChangeForge | Ken Stewart
from twhirl
Mac Vs. Pc is genetic; no wait..it's not
- Gordon Swaby
Should be soon...Amen(pardon the pun)
- Varun Mahajan
9 years of Catholic school were forced down my throat, and now I don't believe in any sort of "God." So I have to agree. Just because your parents believe in it doesn't mean that you have to.
- ::Kristen::
Through history religion and heritage have mixed. The best example is Judaism. There is the Jewish religion and Jewish heritage. One of my best friends converted from Judaism to Christianity. He many no longer be a part of the Jewish religion but that does not mean he dumped his Jewish heritage.
- ChiliMac
from twhirl
Jews throw off surveys in that regard. They make no distinction between "I'm Jewish" (it's my ethnicity), and "I'm Jewish" (it's my religion). A good number of them would identify as atheist/agnostic were it not for the ethnic dimension.
- Eric P
agree, but as other commenters note, the issue in Judaism is that there is little separation in terms of how Judaism is promoted or considered, by those within it, and outside of it.
- Duncan Riley
If you are talking about Jews, it is genetic. We are the chosen people of g-d and as such have an extra gene only found in Jews.
- loren feldman
Judaism is not promoted outside of the Jewish community. When was the last time you had a pair of young Chassids show up at your doorstep with pamphlets?
- Akiva Moskovitz
To quote Michael Ian Black: "Hey, wanna be a Jew? Free hats!"
- Lon Harris
from twhirl
Akiva, sorry, promoted NOT in that sense. In terms of the State of Israel, the story of the diaspora and the foundation of the Jewish state...Judasim is considered in terms of the "Jewish people" as opposed to a religion by itself
- Duncan Riley
Duncan, right, sorry, I misunderstood. It is true though that we consider ourselves both a religion and an ethnicity, both of which are accurate considering our origins. Jews don't have to be religious to be Jews. Antisemites will hate you whether you daven or not.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Seems like here in the US, especially when the discussion surrounds politics, religion is referred to very genericly. The assumption is always a Judao-Christian persuasion. The other assumption made in the political arena is that to be American, you must be religious. Not being religious in America (according to the above definition) is un-American. Both parties are guilty of propagating this thought process. One more so than the other. I feel this is insulting to those with alternate or no beliefs.
- Jeff P. Henderson
Honestly, I get the other end of it: I'm insulted constantly for being religious. What's also irritating is people say 'I hate religion!' when really they only hate Christianity and even then they usually only hate the proselytism. Many people don't know enough about non-Christian religions to hate them with any sense of rationality or educated opinion. 'Oh? You hate Jainism, too? Why?' '...'
- Akiva Moskovitz
The world is so full of religious intolerance. This is true between religions, as well as governments. One of the things that is a turn off to me about many religions is the fact that they feel 'their' way/god is the only way/god and that everyone else is wrong. I know that this behavior is not part of the teachings of most religions, but those who practice then seem to feel the need to behave this way.
- Jeff P. Henderson
Religion is not genetic. But adherence to a group/society is (I think)... Hence people take the safe way out and stick to the beliefs that most of the people they know follow. And thus religions persist.
- Nikhil Dandekar
They won't. As long as people are scared to death for no reason, religion will persist and efforts to rewrite science will continue.
- Krishnan Subramanian
Many people think religion is genetic, or at least they treat it that way. As if when you're 6 you have the cognitive ability to *choose* whether you believe your parents' version of The Story? Yet most parents have no problem brainwashing their children accordingly.
- Anthony Citrano
Liked because it puts an interesting issue back out there. Both for me, my mother is Jewish and and my father is Roman-Catholic, neither of which are very into formalized religion at this point in their lives. I am not sure what or who I really am except for a creature learning although both religions lay claim to to me. If I had to side, my ethnicity if that is is the genetic component being referred to is that of being Jewish. The practicing a religion part is still a work in progress.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Uh oh, hyper dangerous religion post ! BTW, I'm genetically semitic in origin, but I'm not Jewish. How does that square with Jews on here? Additionally, if there's some special gene for Jews, what about people who turn / convert to Judaism? Are they still considered 'true' Jews?
- Mo Kargas
Mo: That comment was just troll bait from someone or a j/k in poor taste if folks actually want to have thoughtful discourse. From my perspective, It is pretty tough to covert to Judaism. Those folks are often-times "true-er jews" imho.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew, it's seriously not troll bait, and I'm seriously disappointed you've labeled it so. They're honest questions that I've thought about for years. It's confusing as Jewishness is sometimes defined as a religion, sometimes as a racial/genetic trait and sometimes both. If my family 3 generations back is Jewish, am I still Jewish, even though I may practice another religion?
- Mo Kargas
Mo: I was referring to Loren's comments not your own. My apologies for not being more specific. Mea culpa.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
As to your question: Unfortunately to some it would not matter what you believed in or even practiced. You would still be considered Jewish. Bigots are the same all over the world and no matter the ethnicity.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Before the modern era, religion was part of the constitution of the political structure. (That's why U.S. separation of church and state is a novelty). Kings were annointed by priests. In other words kings served at the pleasure of gods. In some cases kings were gods. Belief systems were always entwined with political structures. Conversion wasn't a private matter... it was a matter of abandoning one community and joining another.
- Michael Markman
The traditional Jewish position is that Jewish identity is inherited from (and only from) the mother. Jewish identity can also be acquired by conversion. In the view of Jewish law, it's strictly binary. You can't be half-Jewish. If a non--Jewish woman converts, her children will be Jewish no matter what the father. If a man converts, only he is Jewish—unless the mother of his children is also Jewish. That's not a genetic system.
- Michael Markman
There is one edge case scenario in which Jewish law recognizes "opting out" of Jewish identity. A man marries a non-Jewish woman who has a young child. The woman converts, and a conversion ceremony is performed for the child. When that child reaches the age of thirteen (legal adulthood), he has the opportunity to opt-out.
- Michael Markman
This conversation is always amusing to me as it's usually the people who understand the least about Jewishness are the people more stridently vocal against the ethnicity of Jews. There is medical and historical proof of Jewish ethnicity, not the least of which is that we have certain diseases peculiar to us. Although the religion and the people are very intertwined, the people predate the religion. We were 'Jews' before Moses and we'll be Jews after the Moshiach.
- Akiva Moskovitz
To answer Mo's question, Jews who convert clearly don't suddenly become descendants but, as Mathew points out, conversion to Judaism is difficult, long, and often simply not allowed (a Rabbi can, and will, sometimes say, 'Nope, sorry, this just isn't working.') and many ethnic Jews hold converts in high regard not only for the conversion process but for actually WANTING to be discriminated against. As far as Jews are concerned, if you're Jewish, you're Jewish regardless of how you pray. Do what you like.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Isn't messianic ethnocentrism a source of enormous wasteful conflict in the world? And aren't most modern religious and political ideologies (like Enlightenment Americanism) universalist and trans-ethnic in nature? Nazism would be a good example of a messianic ethnocentric ideology which cuts against the grain of modern universalism.
- Sean McBride
Was Loren Feldman joking or serious when he made this remark? "If you are talking about Jews, it is genetic. We are the chosen people of g-d and as such have an extra gene only found in Jews."
- Sean McBride
Thanks for the detail, Mathew, Michael and Akiva. It's very interesting. I think I'll try find a Rabbi to explain more Jewish law to me.
- Mo Kargas
Mo: You are quite welcome! Try for an orthodox rabbi that has a similar background to yourself. I am very much the noob when it comes to the law.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Does anyone want to take a crack at Loren Feldman's statement? "If you are talking about Jews, it is genetic. We are the chosen people of g-d and as such have an extra gene only found in Jews." Which branch of Judaism, if any, believes this? Chabad-Lubavitch perhaps?
- Sean McBride
Sean: He was playing the part of Troll. I do not know of any of these so-called extra genes.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew -- but according to some reputable scholars, Chabad-Lubavitch does indeed hold racist views quite similar to those which Loren Feldman expressed. Has Loren made other racist statements?
- Sean McBride
Sean: I am not Loren's keeper nor subscribe to whatever views that you are referring to. Are you trying to engage in dialogue or just stir the pot?
- Mathew A. Koeneker
I'm trying to engage in dialogue, Mathew: are there racist strains in some factions of Judaism, like Chabad-Lubavitch, that are not unlike Loren Feldman's comment? Do they have much influence in contemporary Israel and religious Zionism?
- Sean McBride
Sean: There are racist strains and racists in every religion, party, ethnic group, or other subsection of humanity. I defend none of them. Why am I getting the perception that you are just a wee bit polarized on this debate. I did track back some of your previous posts and you seem to have a bit of a problem with Jews.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew -- I've been much more critical of Christian fundamentalists than Jewish fundamentalists, but apparently you've got a thin skin about criticism of the latter group. Many Americans are greatly concerned about the central role that Christian and Jewish pro-Israel militants, relying heavily on the most racist themes in the Old Testament, have played in promoting the disastrous Iraq War, an Iran War, World War IV and endless Mideast wars in general. It's a hot topic in American politics.
- Sean McBride
Mathew -- you didn't respond to my question about the role of Chabad-Lubavitch in contemporary Israel and religious Zionism. That's fine -- perhaps you don't know anything about the subject. But I have the impression that they have been highly influential in pushing some of the most extreme memes in Orthodox Judaism to the forefront of Israeli and American politics.
- Sean McBride
Btw, a month or two ago I quickly ran into four or five pro-Israel militants on Friendfeed who became quite upset when I pointed out, accurately and truthfully, that the American military and intelligence establishments were strongly opposed to an American OR Israeli attack on Iran on the grounds that such an attack would be destructive for the American interest. I haven't encountered anyone outside the Israel lobby who is strongly agitating to expand the war against Iraq to Iran.
- Sean McBride
Sean: Just a tip but put your diatribes into a word doc and then cut and paste. Or are you trying to inflate your "image" and keep things on the front page? When did these extra wars happen by the way? I must have been working and missed them. I don't know much of the Lubavitch movement just as I know little about David Duke other than he got me to switch my voter registration to LA while at Tulane to vote for the crook not the neo-nazi. What is the point of your argument?
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew -- this subject is not eliciting any interesting responses from you, from my standpoint. Where you are trying to go is very weak, and doesn't address some of the controversial topics on the table.
- Sean McBride
Game on Sean: Why do you not deserve my 2nd unsub? What is your background? What is your ethnicity? What is your religious background? What is the end game of this so-called discussion? Why are you so polarized? Are you trying to get folks thinking or are you just reinforcing your own views of the world?
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Religious Zionism, a messianic ethnic nationalist movement that is being promoted by an alliance of Christian and Jewish fundamentalists, is the most conspicuous and dangerous example of mixing together religious and genetic mythologies in American politics today. Christian Zionists like George W. Bush and Chabad-Lubavitch supporters like Joseph Lieberman are two of many powerful...
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- Sean McBride
But you are avoiding my questions good sir. What is your angle? Why is this your soapbox? Why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over? This is not what one learns in debate class.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
How many times can you use the word Zion in one comment? :-)
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew - I've put a few topics into play, but you can't handle them. I suggest we drop this unless you can say something interesting. Here's an interesting book which you might want to read to get up to speed: Victoria Clark; Allies for Armageddon: The Rise of Christian Zionism; Yale University Press; 2007 http://tinyurl.com/6hgv7f
- Sean McBride
Regarding Clark: "Clark engages with Christian Zionism directly, interviewing leaders, attending events, and traveling with Christian Zionists in the Holy Land. She also investigates the Christian Zionist presence in Israel. She finds that the view through the Christian Zionist lens is dangerously simple: President Bush’s War on Terror is a mythic battle between good and evil, and Syria and Iran represent the powers of darkness." (continued)
- Sean McBride
"Such views are far from rare—an estimated fifteen to twenty million Americans share them. Almost one in three Americans believes Israel was given to the Jews by God as a prelude to the Battle of Armageddon and Jesus’ Second Coming. Clark concludes with an assessment of Christian Zionists’ impact on American foreign policy in the Middle East and on America’s relationships with European allies since the attacks of 9/11."
- Sean McBride
Sean: How is my desire to understand where you are coming from equate into not being able to handle your diatribes? Why are you afraid to come clean and say what your background is? I have more faith in the veracity of others ideas when they tell me where "they" are coming from. Reading a book or three doesn't make one an expert. So, please speak up. I can't be more open than that.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew - Roman Catholic by upbringing, currently agnostic with a broad interest in all religions, Anglo-Irish ethnicity, fourth-generation American, progressive libertarian political orientation, and concerned about the role of religious fundamentalism in American and global politics. Your profile?
- Sean McBride
Review of Clark: "So do you think the religious right in the U.S. and elsewhere are just a bunch of harmless nuts who spend their time yelling about the right to life and how clusters of a few cells in the womb have a soul? Well, if you haven't been reading the newspapers or watching TV for the last few years at least read this book. It describes in detail how the Christian fundamentalist movement has hijacked U.S. foreign policy in order to further their literal interpretation of the bible." (continued)
- Sean McBride
"These people believe that the second coming of Christ is dependant on Jewish possession of the Holy Land and that the Jews will eventually rebuild the Temple of Solomon, paving the way for the ultimate battle between good and evil, Armageddon. Hence, the state of Israel must be supported regardless of the cost to the U.S. God has said he will bless those who support the Jews and curse those who do not, and if the Jewish people cooperate the advent of the "end times" will be hastened."
- Sean McBride
Scroll up and see. Jewish mother, Roman-Catholic father, catholic grade school, seminary for 1 year, boarding school for 3 years, university for 6 years, 2nd Generation American, I have lived in MO, LA, CA, NYC, and Vienna. Politically w/o party at this point. Anglo/Irish on Dad's side and Slavic/Jew on Mom's side. Grandchild of Holocaust survivors. Strange desire to understand why folks believe what they do. See..that wasn't hard was it? :-)
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Please don't take this too harshly but what do you think about all of the quotes you are posting? I would like to understand you.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
The personal profiles are interesting, but usually I can evaluate the knowledge level of someone on any given subject without knowing their religion, ethnicity, etc. Facts are facts, and the logical exposition of facts is either solid or not. Reading lists and bibliographies are usually more informative than demographics and psychographics.
- Sean McBride
Sean: You just side-stepped again. What are YOUR thoughts? You do your own thinking right?
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew - I've expressed my own views in my own words in several comments here already. You still haven't responded to the substance of the comments.
- Sean McBride
Mathew - regarding your profile - your current religious affiliation, if any? Politics - did you support or oppose the Iraq War? I strongly opposed it.
- Sean McBride
OK. Sean you appear to use quotes a lot. Anything can be warped and twisted so your argument that facts are facts is invalid. Take the the swastika for instance. It is a beautiful symbol that was warped and now has such a negative vibe. The symbol hasn't changed. The way in which man used it did. It appears that you are unwilling to say what you think. I think that you are just stirring the pot for some unfathomed reason. I fear that I know the answer and reason but I hope that I am mistaken.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew - do you know that the Bush 43 administration is in strong conflict with the Israeli government as we speak -- over the settlements movement (promoted by religious Zionists) and the prospects of an Iran War? Which side do you support?
- Sean McBride
Jewish but still exploring. Libertarian if I had to pick. I think that we need a major overhaul. The politico's are too entrenched. We need new, fresh voices not the option of one choice being less worse than the other. Which war in Iraq? The first wholeheartedly. The second, with reservation, but once involved I fully support. I don't support Zealots that is my side. I don't side with anyone that preaches the destruction of others.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew - which branch of Judaism? Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Ultra-Orthodox? I'm very sympathetic to Reform Judaism and the secular Jewish tradition in general. I strongly opposed the Iraq War long before it began because the invasion and occupation of foreign nations usually leads to disasters for the invaders and occupiers. Iran and Muslim fundamentalists have been the chief beneficiaries of a war which is costing Americans several trillions of dollars.
- Sean McBride
I am glad to see that we are at last communicating with and not at each other. I do need to hit the hay soon. I attend an Orthodox shul. I agree with your assessment of the monetary cost but think that is microscopic compared to the cost in human lives, lost limbs, lost ideals, and yet another generation brought up with the ideal of killing as a solution.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Mathew -- get some sleep. :) We can pick this up later.
- Sean McBride
The several trillions of dollars that are being used to destroy Iraqi society and infrastructure on behalf of neoconservative geopolitical objectives could have instead been used to improve the quality of life for Americans in innumerable ways. The Iraq War was the greatest foreign policy disaster in American history. I opposed it. Quite a few other people not only supported it, but served as cheerleaders for it at the tops of their lungs.
- Sean McBride
Mathew, again - do you know that the Bush 43 administration is in strong conflict with the Israeli government as we speak -- over the settlements movement (promoted by religious Zionists) and the prospects of an Iran War? Which side do you support? I oppose new settlements and an Iran War (for the same reasons I opposed the Iraq War). For once, I find myself in agreement with this administration.
- Sean McBride