which way round was the stereotype? - Chris Rusbridge

I believe, from my experiences, that a lot of librarians older than me fail to engage with or meaningfully understand online presence. Saying this infuriates some of them. And I say, I dare you to compellingly and en masse prove me wrong. - Jenica from iPhone

Were the irritated ones exceptions to the rule? - Your Neighbor Steve

I am older than you. - Laura Norvig

Hey, I'm older than you too! And I'm...I'm infur....wait a minute, you're absolutely correct. ;) - Catherine Pellegrino

I agree with that statement but then, I'm one of those upstart kids .... - Hedgehog

Laura, yes. And in my experience, that makes you an exception, not the rule. Does my statement really honestly piss you off because I'm wrongheaded, or can you see some accuracy in it when you consider your demographic peers in libraries? - Jenica from iPhone

I don't think this is true in MPOW. But I don't know how old you are.:) - Elizabeth Brown

So, Elizabeth, all the librarians over 35 at your library have blogs that they use, are active members of social networks, share photos on Facebook, or bond with peers in online communities? If so, I'm impressed and excited. - Jenica from iPhone

Jenica, no, it doesn't really piss me off. There are only about 6 librarians at MPOW. About 4 of those are moderately to heavily involved in social networking. Of the remaining two who are not very involved, one is young and one is in her forties. So, here, I don't see the data skewing along age lines, but more along the lines of stick-in-the-mud vs. adventurous. Obviously, though, our sample size is too small. - Laura Norvig

That's a good way to put it, Dorothea. I'd say that at my library, the younger librarians are more likely to do the things Jenica is talking about. But the older ones aren't so much against it as much as they have found other ways to network and so on. So I think your original statement, "that a lot of librarians older than me [35] fail to engage with or meaningfully understand online presence." is true. Also, fewer than 10% of our librarians are under 35 (if that many. It's possible that 0% are). - Your Neighbor Steve

It's when we get into "all the librarians over 35" territory that I start wanting to pull a Walt and say "all" is way too broad. - Your Neighbor Steve

Steve, I only said "all the librarians over 35" in response to elizabeth's absolute statement and query about my age, not in my own statement of belief. Let's not start that godawful argument again! - Jenica from iPhone

"Pull a Walt." [Chuckles with affection for Walt] I agree, Steve. Still, many generalizations are rooted in truth. Also, I think there are much more important computer skills for all librarians to master online social networking tools. - David Rothman (☤)

Every single librarian who has called me out, challenged me, or glared and frowned and muttered at me during these particular talks has been, I would estimate, over 50. Those who agree are of many ages. This accords with my experiences as to my various places of work and professional organizations and communities. And so I stand by my statement: because of the need I see for libraries to stay relevant and librarians to stay engaged in info environments, I think we need to stop letting tech-apathetic librarians who currently hold institutional power make our online presence rules and decisions. If that statement makes you angry: prove me wrong. - Jenica from iPhone

(not a librarian) Why not just say "tech-apathetic" instead of adding the age? Making a general stereotype about a group (gender, race, age, height, eye color) undermines your very valid point: people unwilling to engage in technology shouldn't be the sole arbiters of that technology's use. - Jennifer Dittrich

I'm 55 and the oldest librarian at mpow; I'm also the only one who blogs, is an active member of mulitple social networks, shares photos on Facebook and Flickr, and bonds with peers in online communities. My younger colleagues think I'm a little weird. I'm okay with that. - barbara fister

If I haven't mentioned it lately, I <3 Jenica with the fire of a thousand suns. - Jason Griffey

It was mentioned in our staff meeting yesterday morning that 58% of our public library staff is over the age of 50, with 32% technically (if finances allowed) could retired today...I bet these numbers are pretty common across the board - Hedgehog

Jennifer, I raise it as a small part of a larger issue, but it's what people latch onto every damn time. And I raise it as part of my use of myself as a case study, and in the context of how in our profession, I'm considered a young'un, and in the eyes of our users, I'm old. It's just a hotbutton for the profession, and I refuse to sidestep it when it's relevant. - Jenica from iPhone

Since I have used and will continue to use Jenica as an example of what's *right* about the future of librarianship, and since I would be hard-pressed to disagree with "a lot of"...well, much as I appreciate "pull a Walt," I'm not going to. (Although I doubt that *all* the librarians *under* 35 in most institutions have active blogs either...) So, no glare from this quarter. - Walt Crawford

There's a very specific 'or' in my list. I have no interest in absolutism. :P - Jenica from iPhone

Sorry, missed the "or." Much as I deride generation generalizations, I think it's absolutely fair to say that "my generation" is markedly less likely to take full advantage of social-media/social-networking opportunities than "your generation." (Those baby boomers in between? Yeah, they're markedly less likely also. And yes, I'd back you on the notion that this can be/probably is a problem.) - Walt Crawford

Oh those pesky people under 35. They don't represent *me*. Oh wait, they do. I love how these discussions always end up with people making the issue all about them and how they may or may not buck the trend. How many librarians under 35 are in this discussion? Under 30? We all grow old and this doesn't have to reflect how we use technology or relate to our users, of course it *can* if we let it. - Georgie Bestie

www.prattlibrary.org - m9m, Crone of FriendFeed

And the trend is more important than the exceptions. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong on the trend, rather than arguing the exceptions. Library power is largely in the hands of people who don't have meaningful interactions with the new information environment. We're setting paths and priorities based on their comfort level, not on that of our users. That should terrify us all. - Jenica from iPhone

@Jennifer D: Tech-apathetic under-35 librarians I know don't tut-tut at me for my online social connections in the same way that the tech-apathetic over-35 librarians do. It concerns me that of the four head administrative types in my library, only one actively engages with popular online social networks, and one not only pretty much avoids them (unless s/he can use them for political clout), s/he is also fairly out of touch with technology needs of the present, much less looking ahead to technology needs of the future. But I also have no interest in replacing any of them with myself. - anna

This is a weird conversation, which is fun. Jenica, I quite like what you say in your post and first comment. After that, it seems like you want a fight and are trying to manufacture one when it doesn't happen. I think we all pretty much agree with you. - Your Neighbor Steve

Dude, I don't want a fight. At all. This reads, to me, largely like a list of people saying "not me!" (which, without anyone providing context or argument, sounds like 'so you're wrong') or "yes, my place is this way!", while I try to reiterate what I said and what I fear. - Jenica from iPhone

I <3 Jenica, and also Griffey for using one of my favorite phrases (fire of a thousand suns!). (Sorry for the somewhat irrelevant response, Jenica.) - Laura H.

Ah. To me I read your commenters as saying "hm, let me compare my experience and conclusions to yours." So, anyway: I'm not as "terrified" as you are but any ideas as to what should be done to help reverse/mitigate the situation? - Your Neighbor Steve

Yeah, that's just an interpretation thing, then. So, I think we need more people supporting online life in libraries, and more exploration. We need more leaders who understand the lives and cares of our users. We need to stop compromising in decisions about our web presence to make the resistant more comfortable rather than making our users comfortable. We need to stop punishing librarians who speak out passionately abou online life. We need to stop disparaging these tools and communities when they are used. We need a culture shift. - Jenica from iPhone

Another vote for "Can't prove you wrong". One of my older colleagues (over 50?) has strong inclinations against social networks, and tries to stop people from using them (during meetings). She won't even put a picture of herself onto the library website because of privacy issues. I have a younger colleague (~28-30?) who also doesn't use social networking software, but she doesn't mind others using them. - The Ghost of Library Past

Jenica, I can't agree with you more. - The Ghost of Library Past

this is a hot button topic - I was curious about age because I wasn't sure. Most of my colleagues participate in some form of online social activity, some for reference and instruction work, others for personal interests, Everyone seems to do something. But I agree that I meet librarians who either don't understand or are unwilling to engage in online social activities or support those who do. I don't think our current organizational culture is the norm. Its made clear that new technologies need to be supported from the library administration. - Elizabeth Brown

@ Steve "any ideas as to what should be done?" Get rid of library organization charts that locate power in the hands of a few. Mutual aid, mutual respect. Make traditional library values of inclusion, intellectual freedom, and empowerment the map you use to design your organization. That should take care of the problem. Easy-peasy. - barbara fister

OK, I agree completely with Barbara and Jenica and (way upthread) Dorothea. I also think we can do this without having the older demographic of librarians adopt online social networking en masse. I often think of my own director. She's over 50, and the kinds of things that Jenica mentions (blogging, Facebook, etc.) don't come naturally to her (though I would say she has a great online network that exists mostly in email). But she's never suggested that the library shouldn't be active in those areas and has encouraged leadership elsewhere in the library in technology. So this isn't about technology or tech competency, right?. It's about leadership. - Your Neighbor Steve

My <3 pitter-patters when Jenica speaks... So often I hear excuses (cost, time) why people can't get involved in the larger library community. Online presence is a way to overcome those limitations--it's FREE. If we're going to call ourselves Information Professionals, we can't be fetishists for the analog world when our next generations of customers are not (to steal a concept from Josh Neff). - Matt

Royce, that's precisely the context of my comments on age and librarianship in this presentation -- as a profession, in my experience, I'm often looked to to represent the "youth" vote. Except... I'm not young. I'm OLD in the eyes of our users. The kids think I'm ancient. :) - Jenica

is it about age, or is it about inevitable generational leadership clash? The people with the power are older (Boomers mostly). This is inevitable in a hierarchy that promotes based on seniority. Senior management almost always resists change. We also have young researchers and librarians who are not heavy tech users, or if they do use the web it's a personal communications tool, not a work tool. I'm stuck in the middle. As a member of the (rather ill-defined) Gen X group, should I be the Web tech lead? I think it's about interest, not about age. Or Dorothea says, it's about culture, not about age. This is a "senior management won't listen / don't understand / don't lead" issue, not an "old people don't like tech" issue. In my org actually, sr. management loves tech, but doesn't necessarily understand it. Our problem tends to be more resistance, lack of understanding and misguided tech implementation in the middle layer. - Richard Akerman

I also want to stab at the heart of this young = techsavvy/interested/user idea. This is taking the 1980s and trying to map it to the 2000s. It's true that in 1980 it was a bunch of mostly-boys playing around with Commodore 64s and tech/gadgets were a teen thing. But now, technology is everywhere. Teens don't use mobile phones because they have some special affinity for "new" technology - it's not new tech to them, it's the ubiquitous communication tool. Teens have an intense focus on *communication*. This makes them intense tech **users** but it doesn't make them either tech experts or tech enthusiasts. If you put (thing that bores teenagers) on a mobile phone, it won't suddenly become more interesting to them. The media keeps getting endlessly surprised that Facebook / web 2.0 / etc. are used by people in their 30s and 40s more than by teens - this is simply because now that we have tech that fills every communications niche and style, we see people using tech dependent on their needs, not based on their age. It is true there are generational trends e.g. SMS for teens, email for old people, but that's simply based on common use - if all your friends use SMS, you use SMS, if all your friends use email, you use email - teenagers don't use SMS because they like "new tech", they use it because they have phones and it's convenient. (I say this again mostly speculating from my position in the middle in Gen X, with no particular insight into why teenagers or Boomers do anything.) - This also ties into http://friendfeed.com/cpikas... - Richard Akerman

As Richard says, definitely ties into my blog post. To add to the fact that established leadership may be resistant to change, you can also say that librarians who have a deep network built up from listservs and in-person meetings really don't see any advantage to taking the effort to use these tools. I suspect that new librarians who happen to be older, will not be resistant to trying these things, because they need to catch up with networking. Sounds like a research study :) - Christina Pikas

"to represent the youth vote' made me giggle wryly because I get the same thing at church. And yeah, I'm half the age of the average member at my church but I'm still well over twice the age of the kids I'm leading in the youth group there. - Deborah Fitchett

I felt like I was losing something of what I wanted to say in the short form, here, so I tried again in long form. http://rogersurbanek.wordpress.com/2010... - Jenica