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@jidf #fbfail they changed the rules for fb fanpage photo. square image only now and it won't switch back to my awesome pic. pissed off!

December 9 from HelloTxt - Comment - Like - Share

you're posting in multiple places, again. - JIDF

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***probably a glitch on FB - JIDF

check you tweet from you and bagels. - JIDF

@jidf ok solved the issue. strange that I couldn't copy and past an image from facebook and then upload it again. obviously cropping in facebook makes re-uploading incompatible - Noah David Simon

apologies @jidf and ahem facebook - Noah David Simon

the double tweet was because it was supposed to be @thebagels problem. I forgot that ff went to @criticalanalyst - Noah David Simon

@jidf I'm only going to connect ff comments to twitter, ff original posts and blogposts to twitter now. no more intensedebate and disqus... etc. manual is less spammy - Noah David Simon

Noah David Simon

Peaceful Islam Strikes Again: Muslim Grad Student Stabs to Jewish Professor to Death - http://www.thejidf.org/2009...

December 7 from Backtype - Comment - Like - Share

"please repost. JIDF has a spam problem and doesn't allow html" - Noah David Simon

huh? get on skype please, and please don't discuss any JIDF tech issues publicly. - JIDF

my apologies. I was complaining here within a context that I believe HTML was turned off. it was not - Noah David Simon

Sean McBride to Sean's feed, US Politics, Media News and Analysis

Think Progress » John McCain — ‘Tech Troglodyte’ And Top Recipient Of Telecom Cash — Unveils Bill To Block Net Neutrality - http://thinkprogress.org/2009...

October 24 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Steven Perez, Itachi, Anthony Citrano and 8 other people liked this

"McCain was the top recipient of campaign contributions from the telecom industry, taking in $894,379 in the past two years. Even as chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee from 1997 to 2001 and again from 2003 to 2005, McCain made sure to craft technology rules that benefited his campaign donors. He opposed a program designed to provide discounts to schools and libraries to connect to the Internet and supported large telecom mergers." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet

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"Of course, the GOP point man on technology issues is someone who, just last year, called himself a computer “illiterate who has to rely on my wife for all of the assistance that I can get.” In July 2008, he said he has “never felt the particular need to e-mail.” As former FCC chairman Reed Hundt has explained, “Basically, John is a technological troglodyte, and proud of it” — and we’re now supposed to trust him to shape the way we use the Internet." - Sean McBride

Yes, of course we can trust him, because being a technological troglodyte means he can be totally impartial ... /sarcasm - Rene Wirtz

You don't need to know how your campaign donors make money to do exactly what they tell you to do. - Andrew C

could of sworn this was dealt with during the election McBride. he uses a Blackberry, but a normal keyboard would not work with his injuries sustained in Vietnam. this was one of the accusations against McCain that ended up being hogwash. as for discounts to schools and libraries he saw the bigger picture which is that industry has accommodated the need for free internet. try starbucks. shitty coffee, but free internet now - Noah David Simon

Wait, what? *He said*, just last year, "I don't e-mail, I've never felt the particular need to e-mail," http://www.nytimes.com/2008... And as for Starbucks, this is like saying browsing at Barnes & Noble is a substitute for funding libraries. - Andrew C

I can't wait to borrow books from Barnes & Noble if that is your argument. btw... I don't use email either ;^) - Noah David Simon

Noah -- I can't think of any intelligent or original remarks about cutting edge information technology ever issuing spontaneously from John McCain's lips. I don't think he really understands or cares about the subject, and that he is executing the will of his paymasters in opposing net neutrality -- AT&T, Comcast, etc. Innovative companies like Amazon and Google are lined up on the... more... - Sean McBride

try some of the dark blends at Starbucks. it's gotten better to contain the public's phobia of Seattle being an Israeli run "Zionist" conspiracy pushing Queen Ester. I'm on their pay for public relations as I talk to you. I've got Mossad operatives on Juan Valdez right now. As for Comrade McCain's relationship to technology it has been beneficial to further our empire. - Noah David Simon

I much prefer the espresso I brew myself over Starbucks' -- as well as the ideas I brew myself over John McCain's. - Sean McBride

He's a worthy successor to Ted Stevens as the GOP point man on internet technology. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

John McCain, despite his occasional nods to the Progressive tradition, is consistently on the side of crony capitalists, plutocrats, oligarchs and those who seek the maximum concentration of wealth and power in the fewest possible hands. That is why he is opposed to net neutrality. If these characters could get away with metering the air, they would. - Sean McBride

Interesting collection of comments by tech savvy people on Mashable on this issue http://mashable.com/2009... Overwhelmingly anti-McCain, and quite angry, justifiably so. - Sean McBride

perhaps maybe I can convince you by putting it this way Sean. what influence do you *really* feel the GOP has had over "Social Media" in the last election? now if I may, what is more threatening? the digital pipeline that has a healthy field of competitors and was a profitable industry that gives back to the community for the most part or social media itself which for the most part has... more... - Noah David Simon

what? Social media != telecom policy. And IMO the pipelines aren't a healthy, competititve field, but more like a series of regional oligopolies each dominated by the local cable monopoly and the local telco. I find your replies to Sean seem to consistently move the goalposts of the conversation. Why is that? - Andrew C

Andrew, didn't you see the sign? :) - Cristo

you didn't answer my question, nor did you contradict the majority of my points. the GOP did not have power over social media. and while I agree that I think it would be a great thing to see restrictions taken away from potential competition to the pipeline... we all know those issues go right through the 'left' because the wires are on pubic property and the satalites and radio signals... more... - Noah David Simon

Noah -- "social media" is a free and self-organizing system -- no particular political group controls it. Anyone is free to participate in social media and express whatever views they like. No government agency controls free expression on the blogosphere or in social media. You are free to express your anti-Obama views on Friendfeed or on any other major social media platform. I don't understand what point it is you are trying to make with regard to net neutrality. - Sean McBride

Noah, I bet it would be awesome if you made sense. - Andrew C from Android

Sean McBride these comments are owned by facebook. I wish the fucker were a Zionist. he's not. - Noah David Simon

Noah -- I don't think the political views of owners of large Internet companies like Google or Facebook should be a factor in their editorial policies -- free speech should rule. Once they start exhibiting any kind of political bias in the way they run their companies, they will lose all credibility and many people will drop them. (Didn't David Appletree say that Randi Zuckerberg shares... more... - Sean McBride

Golly, reading this, I am suddenly glad I can't see what Noah's saying. - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

If you think McCain is a techie-anderthal , you should come to Australia, home of Stephen Conroy and Michael Atkinson. - Will Higgins™

Denise -- the background on this: Noah belongs to a group, the JIDF (Jewish Internet Defense Force), inspired by Rabbi Meir Kahane, which has been harassing and threatening Internet companies like Facebook, Wikipedia, Google and Youtube to censor everyone on their very long list of enemies. The JIDF has become the most conspicuous anti-free speech lobby on the net (it enjoys more than... more... - Sean McBride

LOL - oh, I remember Noah quite well. I chose to block him a LONG time ago, and without apology. His behavior in these threads was atrocious and vile. That censorship is an aim of this group he's affiliated with is of no surprise to me. - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

Sidenote: I've gone out of my way to defend Noah's right of free speech, even when he is using that right to try to censor others. I take the U.S. Constitution with the utmost seriousness. - Sean McBride

*nod* I chose to exercise my first amendment right to ignore him. ;) - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

facebook has free expression? you crack me up McBride. they don't. they censor all the time. they just choose to allow Jew hate into their community standard. we aren't asking for censorship. what we ask is if there is a community standard that hate speech be part of it. ideally no network of over 20 thousand people should have censorship. it's wrong. it's arbitrary. and that was Ad... more... - Noah David Simon

Noah -- Kahanist groups like the JIDF, which you support, have defined as "Jew haters" mainstream Jewish groups like J Street and even Barack Obama and the Obama administration! The JIDF has posted hundreds of harassing and threatening messages against Facebook, Wikipedia, Google, Youtube and other Internet services, demanding that they hand over editorial and political control over... more... - Sean McBride

Noah -- are these accurate JIDF quotes? 1. "Facebook recently deactivated me again. I believe that Facebook does, in fact, discriminate against the Jewish people and Israel" 2. "the JIDF can focus on infiltrating the people behind the problems on facebook, as opposed to just reporting it to fb" 3. "yes, i agree the worst jew haters are Jews. the people most outspoken against me and... more... - Sean McBride

congrats you made my next blog post http://networkedblogs.com/p159952... ...denying the correlative is the assumption to assume that all Kahanists felt the particular action of Rabin's assassination was strategic. another example of why you are weak is you argue below the belt and apply labels to people. that and the hypocrisy of your comment censorship... which is legal, but you... more... - Noah David Simon

Noah -- if you oppose censorship, then how can you support a group (the JIDF) which is probably the most notorious anti-free speech outfit on the Internet? Regarding Kahanism: the US and Israeli governments themselves have officially defined at least four Kahanist groups as terrorist operations because of their track record of committing terrorist and other criminal acts. (Note: I... more... - Sean McBride

I stood JDIF for about 6 months, was so curious about their views, I have Jewish neighbors and a temple is only a block away. So where does the anti Jewish thing come form, in the neighborhood mostly between their own ears. My neighbors are lovely people never ever disturbing or complaining. JDIF does All Time - ThatDBD

Where JDIF lost me was when they started saying "Person stated that they were in no way anti Semitic, which proves beyond all doubt that they are." I saw that one two or three times and the thought occurred, These guys are forming the backbone of the far right winger movement. Thinking must be difficult perhaps Yoga and deep breathing would help??? - ThatDBD

ThatDBD: those who build their entire identity and purpose in life on conflict with ethnic or religious enemies tend to become mired down in a self-pepetuating syndrome and feedback loop -- they need an endless supply of enemies to justify their existence. The melodrama never ends. And, yes, yoga and meditation might help to develop a less xenophobic and more univeralist outlook on the world. - Sean McBride

I do take yoga. fuck you very much. - Noah David Simon

Noah -- you manage to drench your declaration of dedication to yoga in a stew of xenophobic juices. :) Like: I'm a Buddhist. Want to make something of it, motherf*cker? Funny. - Sean McBride

Sean, I'd appreciate it if you ceased making up lies about my organization. Thank you. Oh and "ThatDBD?" It'd J.I.D.F. not JDIF, mmmk? - JIDF

David -- feel free to correct any misstatements or misquotes. Any specifics? Did you write this? "and they should be scared.....just wait until i have actual resources to take care of our enemies." Another: "Today Obama told the world that he is on the side of Al Quaida and that the Jews in Israel should just die." - Sean McBride

JIDF == David? David C Cooper? Or someone else? - Andrew C

Most likely, Andrew...that was my insta-guess the moment I read Sean's response. To be fair, David already got busted open on dual accounts where multiple (conversational) comments were made within a single thread. Wouldn't surprise me if JIDF was another. //Edit: It's not. I was just informed it's not David/aka-pitlord. - ProsePetals (aka Denise)

It's easy to confuse members of this collectivist contingent (a fundamentalist cult, really) because they all tend to use the same ideological catchphrases, terms and expressions. They tend to be clones of one another rather than distinctive and independent individuals. Larry David could come up with a brilliant satire of this culture, I'll bet. This is always the way it goes with fundamentalists. - Sean McBride

JIDF

i'm holding my $AAPL shares - i think the stock is going to jump tonight after hours - we shall see.

October 19 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

what makes you think $AAPL is strong. I see a fall... but that is long term. - Noah David Simon

up over 7% for the day :) - JIDF

Akiva Moskovitz

I have two Facebook accounts. I wish that there was some way to combine them.

October 2 - Comment - Like - Share

Evan Brown, Jon, the Chilled Beartato, Ahsan Ali aka. Slick and Travis Koger liked this

I had the same as I mistakenly used different email addresses. Then realised my mistake when FB suggested that I might know myself because we had the same friends. Of course I also suspected something when I couldn't mark down that my wife was in fact married to me. - Travis Koger

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I know how ye feel. I have 3 google accounts I want to combine.... - Ahsan Ali aka. Slick

You could write an app that friends everyone not already in your friend list, and point that app at your other account. On second thought, friending might not be part of their API. - Cristo

Why don't you do it for me, Cristo? - Akiva Moskovitz

Because I'm mean and lazy. - Cristo

:( - Akiva Moskovitz

That's against the TOS - be careful, you stand to lose BOTH of them. - JIDF

David, considering what you've gone through, that's a warning well heeded. I will soon ditch one of them. - Akiva Moskovitz

I used to have the second Facebook account with the same name just to be in a relationship with myself. :| - Faraz Mullick

I tried to do that, too, once but I wouldn't have anything to do with me (and for good reason, too). - Akiva Moskovitz

Since getting kicked off, I now juggle several. Nothing to lose, so I might as well. A lot can be learned about our enemies on Facebook. - JIDF

Oh, but what I wouldn't give if our enemies weren't limited to Facebook. - Akiva Moskovitz

...running it. - JIDF

Brian Cuban

@1938media he @jidf thinks he is getting coin from a guy in Miami that I happen to know. Yea right!

October 10 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Actually, you don't know anything. - JIDF

Noah David Simon

IMF lauds Israel's financial crisis management - Israel Business, Ynetnews - http://www.ynetnews.com/article...

October 5 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

"IMF lauds Israel's financial crisis management Participant of International Monetary Fund meeting in Istanbul praise Israel, Central Bank Governor Stanley Fischer for bold moves resulting is market showing stability, growth during global recession" - Noah David Simon from Bookmarklet

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"Israel was rated among the top few countries that have managed their recession wisely according to the IMF, alongside Australia, Japan and Germany, which were also lauded for their ability to stop their markets from slipping further into the recession plaguing world markets. " - Noah David Simon

skype - JIDF

no Obama n Israel. @riotCT economy is doing well in Israel if @IgorTheTroll2 is there. finance expert from NYU. eccentric but brilliant. - Noah David Simon

Israel to Loan IMF Up to $500 Million Reported: 17:29 PM - Oct/06/09 Follow Israel news briefs on and . (IsraelNN.com) In a speech to the International Monetary Fund, meeting in Istanbul, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said that Israel would lend the organization as much as $500 million, in an effort to assist emerging economies during the recession. The money would come from Israel's... more... - Elly Sorensen

Brian Cuban

Going to be a busy two weeks preparing for my @blogworld presentation, sports media 360 and Tx. State Mass Communications Week

October 4 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

no one cares. - JIDF

Wikipedia roundtable: Pationl

@noah,

December 17, 2008 - Comment - Like - Share

Noah David Simon liked this

[[The JIDF (www.thejidf.org) describes itself as a "collective of activists and a non-violent protest group with over 5,000 members and supporters, which seeks in its own way to counter anti-Semitic content [that] promotes terrorism online in places including (but not limited to) Facebook, YouTube, Wikipedia, Google Earth." Apart from its Facebook operations, which the JIDF calls only a small percentage of its activities, the group publishes online "guides" detailing how users can identify sites that promote hateful content. JIDF members also edit content on Wikipedia entries and monitor YouTube and Google Earth.]] This is the only piece where Wikipedia is mentioned and only in the margin. Do you have some proof of "hateful content" whatever this may be for {Allah|God|YHWH}'s sake? Even if you can point this why not just change it. It's the most open application there is on the planet... - Pationl

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perhaps theJIDF will answer that himself. he is here on friendfeed http://friendfeed.com/jidf but when you are talking about social science a person who asks for proof is usually looking for loopholes. of course you can't prove bigotry. to charge such vile behavior is an appeal to an administrator for discretion. in the end it is a judgment call based on precedent. to accuse those who... more... - Noah David Simon

On WP, it's more about correcting anti-Israel bias. However, the article about the JIDF was attacked with swastikas and flags of jihad, and we fully got to the root of it. It's all documented on the JIDF website. - JIDF

that is pretty clear cut. thanks - Noah David Simon

Great you found who vandalized the JIDF article. Best thing to do is get it protected if you hav not done so yet. Problem is all controversial articles need to be protected making WP less open... - Pationl

jidf just fixed the problem. - Noah David Simon

Noah David Simon

@jidf sorry I was a bitch tonight. just frustrated that we can't get facebook to behave. I'm not a fighter honestly. I want to go back 2 art

October 4 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

You have a Fighting Spirit when it is needed. That's what matters. Elly Sorensen - Elly Sorensen

Fwd: seems to track many of my friends and has 911Troofers as admins http://friendfeed.com/disinfo... (via http://friendfeed.com/noahdav...)

September 8 - Comment - Like - Share

already created a shadow google search from the room in case I get blocked http://friendfeed.com/mossad - Noah David Simon

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i would like control of this feed? "thejidf"? - JIDF

sadly control isn't easy on friendfeed. does anyone know a way to block me from posting onto their feed? it is also bad that an rss can't be blocked from certain rooms by appealing to the admins here... which I guess is facebook now - Noah David Simon

I think if you block someone else it blocks your posts from showing in their feeds too. - David C. Cooper

I don't think so... but hope so - Noah David Simon

Sean McBride to Sean's feed, Mideast Politics

The attacks on Muslims by Pamela Geller, David Appletree (JIDF), Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, David Horowitz and others of their ilk is a perfect impersonation of Nazi attacks on Jews. Substitute "Jews" for "Muslims" and "Germans" for "Jews" in their hysterical agitprop, and you will get it instantly.

September 13 - Comment - Like - Share

Joe, Steve, bcultral and 2 other people liked this

You're becoming quite famous. - Sean McBride

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You've been attacking Muslims? - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

Muslims aren't the only religious group that tries to portray disagreement as hate or an attack. - Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)

David's remarks on Islam and Muslims: https://friendfeed.com/search... - Sean McBride

Rahsheen and Sean together at last? someone get a tree to hide behind for the Dhimmis - Noah David Simon

oh that is nothing... try a hashtag: #Mossad - Noah David Simon

Please. Stop acting like there isn't an issue when they have a Hamas Mickey Mouse attacking the Jews. http://www.examiner.com/x-14881... - AndIm Right

David -- Friendfeed overall provides a more powerful interface than Twitter -- great for archive searching. - Sean McBride

And as far as agitprop, the radicals follow Obama's lead the way he followed Stalin's. http://www.examiner.com/x-14881... - AndIm Right

This escalating conflict between Israel and Islam is going to end very badly for everyone concerned. It's quite sad -- and so easily avoidable. - Sean McBride

No, I am not a Muslim. - Sean McBride

Empower your goggles. - Sean McBride

Religious hatred and incitement lead to this: http://letters.salon.com/opinion... BEGIN QUOTE screw Iran Sorry I was so vague for those of you who are Politically Correct. I meant to say sandniggers without the astericks because everyone knows one subhuman race is related to another. I'm glad you've heard my message... more... - Sean McBride

Is there anyone here who doesn't strongly condemn the above sentiments? - Sean McBride

I am trying to make a point: *why* do you condemn these remarks? Once one goes down the track of verbally abusing entire religions, ethnic groups or races, this is where it ends up -- in incitement to genocide, and in actual acts of genocide. - Sean McBride

David Appletree -- do you respect Islam as a religion or not? Do you believe that Muslims in the United States should enjoy the same rights and respect as members of all other religious and non-religious groups? - Sean McBride

Direct quote from David Appletree and the JIDF: "Islam is a hateful ideology." https://friendfeed.com/jidf... Let's try some word substitutions: "Judaism is a hateful ideology." "Zionism is a hateful ideology." "Christianity is a hateful ideology." Get the picture? - Sean McBride

how can there be peace in the world when just a few people can't agree on something? it's more than a disagreement, it's each person, each nation, etc. wanting what each wants and rarely if ever willing to negotiate and even when they do they change their minds - if i'm wrong about this i apologize but history seems to prove what i'm saying - - sally stokhamer

David Appletree/JIDF quote="I believe Islam is a violent, hateful and antisemitic system of beliefs." - Sean McBride

David: you just had an opportunity to explain your quote -- "Islam is a hateful ideology" -- but declined. What is the difference between this kind of hate speech and a remark like "Judaism is a hateful ideology"? I am trying to make the point that hate speech leads to hateful actions -- often mass murder and genocide. Nazis used precisely this kind of hate speech to demonize Judaism and Jews in preparation for the Holocaust. - Sean McBride

Well now... Lumping all members of an ethnic group or a religious affiliation together as one entity and making disparaging comments about them? We have a word for that. I can understand hatred of an individual; I'm guilty of it myself. I cannot understand hatred of an individual because of association. - MVB (Grinch of FF) from fftogo

There we go: you are attacking and demonizing Islam as a whole, and more than a billion Muslims. You just made my point. And I think we can correctly infer two points from your beliefs: 1. you don't believe that Muslims in the United States should enjoy the same rights as other groups 2. you think that Islam and all Muslims should be eradicated through violent force, which leads us directly to the prospect of genocide. Correct me if I have misstated your real beliefs. You think that Muslims are Nazis. - Sean McBride

David -- do you find the statement "Judaism is a hateful ideology" to be acceptable? Or an instance of hate speech? - Sean McBride

Yes -- but the point is that Nazis promoted the theme that "Judaism is a hateful ideology," and that language led to the Holocaust. Generally attacks by one major culture or religion on another -- "Islam is a hateful ideology" -- lead to massive violence and mass murder. Aren't Americans supposed to be above this kind of incitement to violence over religion? - Sean McBride

David -- you're getting off track -- I think the statement "Judaism is a hateful ideology" is an instance of hate speech -- I strongly disagree with it. - Sean McBride

You are using the same kind of hate language against Islam that Nazis used against Judaism, and that Protestants used against Catholics and Catholics used against Protestants in earlier phases of their history. And *most* Jews -- certainly the Jewish establishment -- strongly disagrees with what you are doing. You do not speak for "the Jews." - Sean McBride

Name a Jewish establishment leader who endorses your attacks on Islam and Muslims as a whole. - Sean McBride

No, I am not comparing Jews to Nazis -- that is a lie. I am comparing hate speech against Islam with hate speech against Judaism. Much of that hate speech is coming from extremists who are not Jewish; many of them are Christians, pagans or atheists. - Sean McBride

Sean you aren't even Jewish, you certainly do not speak for the Jews. When did you ever speak out against the anti semitic Jewish hate groups on Facebook or any other social networking site? At least the JIDF is working to keep these public forums civilized. - David C. Cooper

I have spoken out against anti-Semitic groups and anti-Semites many times. And I am not a defender of Islam -- I generally don't have much enthusiasm for Abrahamic religions. But I do strongly oppose hate speech that is designed to stir up religious wars. - Sean McBride

David Cooper has attacked both Islam AND Christianity as false religions -- he's part of the problem. He believes that Moshiach is going to crush all his enemies (which includes both Muslims and Christians). - Sean McBride

Do you (David Appletree and David Cooper) believe that Muslims should enjoy equal rights and respect in the United States with Christians, Jews and all other groups? - Sean McBride

Weren't members of the group you admire officially charged by the American government as being terrorists? - Sean McBride

David Cooper -- refrain from personal attacks in this thread. - Sean McBride

Why did you express admiration for Meir Kahane, then? One of his followers was a terrorist who assassinated an Israeli prime minister. - Sean McBride

Still no answer: Do you (David Appletree and David Cooper) believe that Muslims should enjoy equal rights and respect in the United States with Christians, Jews and all other groups? - Sean McBride

Of course. - David C. Cooper

You are responsible for expressing admiration for Meir Kahane -- that was your choice. - Sean McBride

The American government officially defines all Kahanist groups as terrorist groups. If you want to paint yourself into that corner, be my guest. - Sean McBride

Do you agree with Kahane that all Arabs should be expelled from Greater Israel? - Sean McBride

In the real world -- in Israel, Europe and the United States -- Kahanists fall under suspicion of being potential terrorists because of their track record -- Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein, Irv Rubin, Earl Krugel, etc. You seem to be tone deaf to the problem. - Sean McBride

I watched the Kahane video and paid close attention to the text (I've read this essay several times before). The core meme? Jews -- the Jewish people, Israel -- are in perpetual conflict and war with "the world" -- the entire world, "the nations," all non-Jews. That sounds to me like a narrative that is going to end in Armageddon. And what a peculiar narrative it is. Most of us do not... more... - Sean McBride

David -- I distinctly rejected any comparison of Jews to Nazis -- that is your invented lie, and anyone who reads this thread can see that you are lying. What I said was that attempts to demonize Islam are exactly like the Nazi campaign to demonize Judaism. Most Jews strongly reject hate speech against religions, and they certainly reject you and your hate campaign against Islam. And... more... - Sean McBride

David -- once again, disagreements with you do not constitute disagreements with "the Jews" or with Israel. Most Jews and Israelis strongly reject you and your beliefs. You are doing damage to the Jewish tradition when you try to promote yourself as an official spokesperson for it. - Sean McBride

I admire many Jews, David. But none of them sound like you. They are not haters. And their concerns and interests extend well beyond an obsession with ethnic or religious enemies. They have made important contributions to humanity at large. - Sean McBride

David -- when you try to portray disagreements with yourself -- David Appletree -- as expressions of hostility to Jews as a whole, you are indeed trying to present yourself to the world as an official spokesperson for the Jewish tradition. But you are not, and one can safely disagree with you without offending that tradition. - Sean McBride

You're intellectually dishonest, and morally ambiguous. Thus, I want nothing to do with you or your threads. - JIDF

Weak response, David. You are not engaged in rational dialogue here. Why not try to answer the specific points I raised. - Sean McBride

I am still curious: do you and David Cooper agree with Meir Kahane that all Arabs should be deported from Eretz Yisrael? - Sean McBride

Kahanist groups and individuals are closely associated in the minds of Western governments and security services with incitements to violence, terrorism, vigilantism, criminal activities, malicious hacking, bombings, threats, assaults, racism, etc. They have a detailed track record. Since the assassination of Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin by Yigal Amir, they have been a subject... more... - Sean McBride

Incitement against Obama: a few JIDF quotes: 1. "I don't like Obama or his racist/antisemitic/anti-Israel/anti-American policies." 2. "JStreet is a bigger enemy to the Jewish people than I ever imagined. JStreet and Obama are clearly in bed together" 3. "it's true that Obama does seem to have a real soft spot for Islamists... and serious disdain toward Israel and Jews." 5. "Everybody... more... - Sean McBride

Isn't outrageous rhetoric, complete with fabulous lies and threats of violence, a mainstay of negotiation in that region of the world? - MVB (Grinch of FF) from fftogo

This thread is disturbing in so many ways. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

Mark -- Abrahamic fundamentalism seems to inspire fanatical violence in that part of the world, and in every part of the world in which it is transplanted. Absolutist messianic doctrines spawn bloody holy wars -- the violence flows from their innermost nature. (And lord knows Christians have been major players in this game for centuries.) - Sean McBride

The JDIF? I never knew such a thing existed on ff. - Joe

Mark -- I think much of the lunacy flows from strident megalomania -- the conflation of the true believer's personal ego with "God's" will (and that God -- especially the Old Testament God -- is fond of periodic genocidal romps). The stridency is fully on display in fundamentalist rhetoric -- see, for instance, John Hagee's books and sermons. What a nightmare. And American foreign policy is now fully mired down in the mess. I tremble for the future of my country. - Sean McBride

My point, of course, is that anything said during a negotiation is to be taken with many grains of salt. In other words, the mistake Westerners make is believing that what is said is actually meant. - MVB (Grinch of FF) from fftogo

Joe -- it's JIDF -- Jewish Internet Defense Force -- which seems to be a reference to both the JDL (Jewish Defense League) and JTF (Jewish Task Force). I first became aware of it when Igor the Troll repeatedly threatened to sic Mossad on his political opponents, and bragged about hacking into their Internet accounts. He was referring to the JIDF. - Sean McBride

*shaking my head* Nothing like true believers - no matter the religion. - Joe

Mark -- the threats should probably be taken somewhat seriously, because they are often followed up with action. - Sean McBride

Ok -- I think David Appletree deleted one or two of his inflammatory posts to which I replied, so the thread may be somewhat difficult to understand. I also note (I think, I hope) that both David Appletree and David Cooper replied "yes" to the question of whether Muslims should enjoy full equality and respect in the United States with all other citizens -- so perhaps that is some progress. Why can't we all get along? That's the American way. - Sean McBride

Further check: it looks like David Appletree/JIDF deleted all his own comments. I want to make it clear that I didn't delete them -- I thought they were interesting and revealing. He is certainly free to express his point of view in this group whenever he feels like it. (In fact, his entire feed is a component of this group.) - Sean McBride

For those who may be reading this thread for the first time: David Appletree/JIDF deleted many comments by himself in which he defended his practice of attacking and demonizing Islam and all Muslims as a whole, accused his political opponents of being "Jew haters," and praised Meir Kahane, who inspired several terrorist organizations. There was more in this vein, but apparently he decided to scrub it all. - Sean McBride

A curious development: "JIDF: people are fucking stupid - i'm going to delete my entire online presense." - Sean McBride

JIDF

5th time to have this playing in background; http://www.youtube.com/watch...

5th time to have this playing in background; http://is.gd/3HWXt

September 26 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

David C. Cooper liked this

bump - JIDF

Noah David Simon

Fwd: OST Sahara <3 (via http://friendfeed.com/allmusi...)

September 24 - Comment - Like - Share

hippy - JIDF

Noah David Simon

Twitter Support :: Request #574645 'I would like to get this ac...' - http://help.twitter.com/request...

September 23 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

"I would like to get this account unsuspended. it was suspeneded two years ago for retweeting, but I brought it back 6 months ago and it was suspended at that time for no reason. please help me bring this account back. . noahdavidsimon is my brand name and it hurts my business when people look for me on twitter. I've had several clients get back to me with this issue and it really hurts me. I want to move forward and I don't like having my url http://twitter.com/noahdav... advertising my "eternal" punishment. whatever your feelings are, you must realize I have been adequately punished for whatever you think I am guilty of." - Noah David Simon from Bookmarklet

2 more comments

the Jewish Internet Defense Force @JIDF is willing to vouch for me. http://www.facebook.com/photo... I also have the backing of the people on this facebook group http://www.facebook.com/group... I sincerely am sorry for any trouble and harm that I may of caused your company in the past. - Noah David Simon

request not found - JIDF

it might be private. ....no it is still there - Noah David Simon

Noah David Simon

Robert Lantos: Naomi Klein's TIFF protest is an attack on our freedom - http://network.nationalpost.com/np...

September 14 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

"This seemingly factual statement fails to mention a little detail: There was no such thing as Palestine prior to 1948. The city of Tel Aviv was founded in 1909 in a Turkish colony, later a British colony and once upon a time a Roman colony, consisting of lands from which the indigenous Jewish population had been forcefully -- though never fully -- evicted. The headline of her "open letter" protesting the presence of films by Tel Aviv filmmakers, "No Celebration of Occupation," implies that Tel Aviv is "occupied territory." That is more than just a lie. That is a regurgitation of terrorist slogans. We are not talking about the West Bank or the Golan Heights here. We are talking about the biggest population centre in the heart of Israel, where the first neighborhood was built in 1887. If that is "occupied" or "disputed" territory, then Ms. Klein and her armchair storm troopers are clamouring for nothing short of the annihilation of the Jewish State. They are effectively Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's local fifth column." - Noah David Simon from Bookmarklet

2 more comments

skype it - JIDF

skype now? - Noah David Simon

yeah if you can - JIDF

Critical Analysis

Achilles has left the tent - http://kraalspace.blogspot.com/2009...

September 14 from The Kraalspace - Comment - Like - Share

are you around? skype? - JIDF

JIDF

Obama to Announce Cyber Security Officer Soon http://www.dailytech.com/Preside...

September 12 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

John (a.k.a. dendroica) and Igor The Troll יִצְחָק liked this

Oy Vey! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

9 more comments

They're going to get you, Igor! - Akiva Moskovitz

Not a joke! They will censor Free Speech! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

There is no such thing as free speech! Free speech only exists amongst people who already agree with each other! - Akiva Moskovitz

If your idea of free speech is mainly spammers and 4chan... - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

What is your idea of free speech? - Akiva Moskovitz

Speech that don't cost monies. - Danny Minick

Free Speech that is granted to us by the US constitution in support of Liberty! Learn your Rights! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Cyber security is about protecting computer networks from people who want to break into the goverment's computers to steal private information, such as social security numbers, or to use them for other nefarious purposes. Stealing databases is not a constitutionally guaranteed right. Neither is taking over someone's computer to use it as a spambot. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Free speech does not exist on private servers of private companies, where there are private rules against certain content (eg. content that promotes hatred/violence, etc) - JIDF

Free Speech does not mean Hate Speech! Free Speech and anti-discrimination laws exist everywhere. Private and Public! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

JIDF

@akiva my idea of free speech? care to be more specific?

September 12 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Sorry, David, that was actually directed at 'John the Birdbot of FF'. - Akiva Moskovitz

no worries - thanks for clarification - JIDF

Peter Ghosh

@JIDF by who? Igor or Noah?

September 9 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

noah... i have unblocked you - can you tell me why noah told me to block you? - JIDF

6 more comments

Don't know. I pissed him off during an exchange a few weeks back. I guess he doesn't like different views. - Peter Ghosh

different views? like what? are you an anti-zionist troofer? - JIDF

hell no -just don't have the bloodlust desire to eliminate the world of all Muslims,which seemed to be his view - Peter Ghosh

I think that there is more of a <try not to laugh> harmony between older Israelis and Sephardim with other Muslims. When I was in India, for instance, both of Calcutta's last Synagogues were taken care of by. . . Muslims. - Peter Ghosh

http://ff.im/2xMy3 - Noah David Simon

Sephardim ...block him for ignorance. I am Sephardim and I know what they think. their lives are threatened - Noah David Simon

Hey, it's a free world - block me at will. I don't think any further conversation would be engaging at all. - Peter Ghosh

JIDF

Facebook loves Jews: They allow allow antisemitism, Holocaust denial, jihadism, create a "palestine" and say Golan is in Syria.

September 2 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Mike Nencetti, Amy℠, Penguin It's Cold Outside and 3 other people liked this

Remember, you're supposed to be tolerant and understanding of all cultures... as long as they're not Jewish. - Akiva Moskovitz

26 more comments

*taking note - JIDF

Akiva, I can't understand nor tolerate that kind of rubbish. - Jimminy Fuller

Jimminy, I was being cynical and sarcastic. Unless you were calling Judaism rubbish! Then we have fist fight!! - Akiva Moskovitz

Akiva, I was referring to your statement, in a sarcastic way also. I wouldn't attack Judaism at all that would be disrespectful to my heritage. - Jimminy Fuller

Funny! You don't look Druish! - Akiva Moskovitz

3 Generations and a lot of intermingling of the various races does that. - Jimminy Fuller

Is allowing antisemitism (however horrible) on a public forum really supporting it's cause? Clearly I detest holocaust denial or any similar act, but I detest censorship just as much. It makes me all but cry when I see hate speech on the web, but censoring it will just harbor further resentment, won't it? - Sparky

Jimminy, one would think that it would be wrong for a Jew to create Facebook (or be involved w/ the administration of it) and allow this mishegas, lest it be "disrespectful to their heritage!" - JIDF

Sparky, it is when hate speech is against Facebook TOS and they remove criticism of Islam and of Facebook itself... Facebook selectively censors as they see fit (except when it comes to Jewish/Israel issues...then all hatred is welcome) - there's double standards and hypocrisy in the way that facebook "enforces" its own rules....Facebook seems to be run by many Jews who are afraid to seem too much in favor of their own people...(new york times syndrome) - JIDF

JIDF, I agree, Antisimetism is a greater evil than Breast Feeding, which one is more likely to offend a large group of people. I think Zuckerburg is a clueless fart, but that's just me. - Jimminy Fuller

JIDF - if that is the case then I agree it's bad. They either need to fully enforce their TOS, or let all content through completely uncensored. There _cannot_ be a middle ground. - Sparky

which one, randi? (http://www.thejidf.org/2009... ) or mark? - JIDF

JIDF, I was referring to Mark, but Randi could equally apply from what I've seen and read about her(not much). - Jimminy Fuller

Edward (Zuckerberg) is my personal favorite (http://www.facebook.com/fbdad) - that's a dentist with some serious style! - JIDF

Picking on one group over another is simply wrong - tho I must point out that Palestinians and Israelis are both semetic people (so to be anti semetic is to discriminate against both peoples), and that golan heights are really a part of syria, it's just easier to leave them in contention becaause they provide a convenient excuse to be shitty to others - tho it's interesting such a small... more... - alphaxion

your comment about antisemitism is flat out wrong. antisemitism refers strictly to jew hatred. also, your geography is wrong. - JIDF

how do i edit other people's posts here? i don't need people posting nonsense. - JIDF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... learn your history and geography yourself dude... Also, there are more semetic people than just the israeli people, while traditionally anti-semitism has been used to refer to anti-jewish activities (deplorable actions, regardless of target), it technically covers all semitic tribes, of which the modern day palestines are certainly one of - alphaxion

and, because of the situation being such an emotionally charged one, I point out again that I detest anyone who acts in such a bigotted manner towards their fellow human - there's no excuse for it and it shouldn't be tollerated. Regardless of who it is that commits such acts against consciousness. - alphaxion

Serious Question: Is there any examples of Facebook removing any other groups that project hateful speech against another group? - Johnny Worthington

Johnny, yes. And to be fair, they have acted against SOME antisemitic groups. - JIDF

Alphaxion, you send me to Wikipedia to learn geography? The same place that would have one believe that Hezbollah is some humanistic organization? Try actual sources. Antisemitism means JEW HATRED. Exclusively. It has nothing to do with "semitic" people in general. - JIDF

as I said, traditionally it is used to refer to hate perpetrated against Jewish people, it does still actually refer to anyone of semetic origin "The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile").[10] Steinschneider used this... more... - alphaxion

no, actually antisemitism means Jew hatred . end of story. - JIDF

Jewish Toll is here! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor does your toll cost less than a Bhuddist toll? >.> - pitlord

We Tolls are all the same! LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Noah David Simon

Gateway Pundit: Ahmadinejad's Spiritual Advisor: Raping Prisoners Is OK But Wash Your Hands First - http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009...

September 2 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

freedom fighter mom liked this

"Asked if a confession obtained "by applying psychological, emotional and physical pressure" was "valid and considered credible according to Islam," Mesbah-Yazdi replied: "Getting a confession from any person who is against the Velayat-e Faqih ("Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists", or the regime of Iran's mullahs) is permissible under any condition." The ayatollah gave the identical answer when asked about confessions obtained through drugging the prisoner with opiates or addictive substances. "Can an interrogator rape the prisoner in order to obtain a confession?" was the follow-up question posed to the Islamic cleric. Mesbah-Yazdi answered: "The necessary precaution is for the interrogator to perform a ritual washing first and say prayers while raping the prisoner. If the prisoner is female, it is permissible to rape through the vagina or anus. It is better not to have a witness present. If it is a male prisoner, then it's acceptable for someone else to watch while the rape is... more... - Noah David Simon from Bookmarklet

<sarcasm> but now wait a second I'm still angry we water boarded terrorists </sarcsm> - Noah David Simon

JIDF

@CriticalAnalyst did you see me reaching out to feldman? guy blocked me!

September 1 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Noah David Simon and Igor The Troll יִצְחָק liked this

I missed that. and I'm not surprised. I've come to the conclusion that Feldman isn't sane - Noah David Simon

9 more comments

Feldman is a Bully and an Asshole! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

your tweet to Feldman didn't make it to summize. did you delete it? - Noah David Simon

Maybe the Twitter tech sanitizing Twitter search results or because @jidf is blocked! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

my tweets are still in search results - feldman blocked me - what's wrong w/ you two! - JIDF

http://twitter.com/#search... - JIDF

(kidding, you guys are cool) - JIDF

http://search.twitter.com/search... yeah it's there. sorry. just get paranoid - Noah David Simon

the whole thing is I believe Feldman has leverage over things. if he wants to make something disappear. I believe he can. - Noah David Simon

Eye for Eye. Like the Torah teaches us! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

I keep on hoping that there is a tiny bit of humanity in @1938Media. there is nothing left in him but anger - Noah David Simon

JIDF

It's pretty unbelievable - all that is happening - a lot of exciting things. Joining forces w/ a lot of powerful organizations.

August 30 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Igor The Troll יִצְחָק liked this

Good for JIDF. But let's not forget joining hands with powerful people as well. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

who do you think runs the powerful orgs? - JIDF

Hum, powerful people? ;-) - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Noah David Simon

Jewlicious seems to think that I'm David Appletree? http://networkedblogs.com/p101204... - http://www.facebook.com/photo...

Jewlicious seems to think that I'm David Appletree? http://networkedblogs.com/p10120454

August 27 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

does this look like me? #GiladShalit - Noah David Simon

23 more comments

No way, that guy's face is way skinnier than yours. - David C. Cooper

Dr. Emmett Brown: "Oh, my God, they found me, I don't know how, but they found me . Run for it Marty." Marty McFly: "Who? Who?" Jewlicious seems to think I'm the real David Appletree, I'm flattered... but the fact of the matter is he hides his identity because they will come after him and his family. - Noah David Simon

...ahem... skinnier? grrrr - Noah David Simon

ah..i joked that i agreed w/ David C. Cooper as I thought Noah claimed he was skinnier, first. in any event, i posted on Twitter the answer to this puzzle: http://twitter.com/JIDF... - JIDF

Uh-oh :-o - Kittyburgers

not even close - liny

#GILADSHALIT @JIDF Shut the fuck up, Donny! V.I. Lenin. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov! http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Noah David Simon

donny is skinnier than walter. that much i know. - JIDF

the fake JIDF feels great and energized. nothing beats being healthy. I just want the women to think I am Mr Anonymous. the rest of the world can think I'm a loser. you ever see that episode of Larry David where he get jealous of Ted Danson because he does a good deed "Anonymously"... but everyone knows. now there is the way to go. the episode with Barbara Boxer in it. - Noah David Simon

lol - love Curb. yes, seen every episode. you're totally me. whatever helps you get the girls. just brace yourself. the "real" me attracts some REAL nutcases, but hey, drama can be fun i guess. you should know since it runs in your family (father being an actor/acting instructor and all) - JIDF

sadly David the reason your org is needed is when you are a Zionist and you are out there... you might as well have a star of David Tattooed on your profile. once you identify Jewish... it is what you are. the many dimensional elements of who I am are only secondary. I'm just that social media graffitwall drawing Zionist who pisses off the admins at twitter... and any other place. I... more... - Noah David Simon

http://www.youtube.com/watch... - JIDF

i might use that pic if you could adjust the letters so the words could be legible in the thumbnail version - JIDF

won't work. I tried. would have to cover your shnoz.... I made a blip.tv version of the video you liked. you are welcome to use it. I put the html in skype - Noah David Simon

y'know i'm tired when i sat here for 10 minutes trying to figure out if you just claimed that i had a big nose (ok, it wasn't 10 minutes, but about 30 seconds) - JIDF

I am the real JIDF. All you guys are FAKE! LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Jews and Shnozzes..... believe it or not. because I don't have a big nose when I was growing up people thought I was Latino or something else. this bothered me a lot. my brother has a Jewish nose. honestly I would rather have a Jewish nose then bad skin... but eh... I guess little noses don't regulate beauty to me. no I'm not being PC... I know it bothers my brother who has a bigger... more... - Noah David Simon

I can help you get a big nose very easy! It will just take one good punch! LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

promoting violence on friendfeed i see, igor. - JIDF

;) - JIDF

David, you know I like a good fight! Or is it Sammy? ;-) - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

today I'm developing a cold sore. you can't see it yet, but it hurts and is blistering. I get them twice a year and they come clockwork. I would take the larger nose over the cold sore. I'd take a larger nose over the acne I had when I was 14 that was so bad that I had a hindu dot on my forhead till I was 30. it used to be my trademark and if you look closely at the features on my... more... - Noah David Simon

I hope you do not have Herps! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

if I do I've had it before I had my first kiss. I just get them twice a year. if I don't touch it after a day it goes away... ugh - Noah David Simon

Noah David Simon

@jidf another fan page toy you will like if you haven't already heard http://mashable.com/2009...

August 20 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

JIDF liked this

thanks - JIDF

JIDF

@Justice_For_All ...or just comment upon it on FriendFeed and i'll get the comment

August 18 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Noah David Simon liked this

there you go pal! promote us! - Noah David Simon

skype it. question about latest format. - JIDF

Sean McBride to Sean's feed, Mideast Politics, US Politics

CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years - http://www.easenews.net/...

July 15 from Bookmarklet - Comments disabled - Like - Share

Lisa zahara Hopkins, Tanath, Sean Oliver and 67 other people liked this

"A study conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has cast doubt over Israel’s survival beyond the next 20 years.CIA on Future of Israel The CIA report predicts “an inexorable movement away from a two-state to a one-state solution, as the most viable model based on democratic principles of full equality that sheds the looming specter of colonial Apartheid while allowing for the return of the 1947/1948 and 1967 refugees. The latter being the precondition for sustainable peace in the region.” The study, which has been made available only to a certain number of individuals, further forecasts the return of all Palestinian refugees to the occupied territories, and the exodus of two million Israeli – who would move to the US in the next fifteen years." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet

331 more comments

"He said CIA, in its report, alludes to the unexpectedly quick fall of the apartheid government in South Africa and recalls the disintegration of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, suggesting the end to the dream of an ‘Israeli land’ would happen ‘way sooner’ than later." - Sean McBride

WOW, this is an interesting study...however its aim seems to be little more than a self-fulfilling prophecy...out of touch with realities. - Hayk H.

Not if I can help it! And I am not alone! Israel is my home, my Jewish home! Israel does not belong to UN, CIA, or America! Sean, your antisemitism is offensive! You may not like Israel to be a Jewish state, but your fixation with the topic smells foal Do you talk about any other political issues besides the Jews? - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Actually, this may be the most plausible and realistic scenario out there at the moment. The comparison of Israel to apartheid white South Africa is especially telling. - Sean McBride

This potential scenario is why it's in Israel's interest to implement a two-state solution as quickly as possible. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

John -- I think the opportunity to implement a two-state solution has slipped by. Too late. Now Israel is on a collision course with the entire world, and especially with the Western democratic world -- much like apartheid white South Africa just before its collapse. - Sean McBride

Sean, guessing or predicting future in itself is quite unrealistic - clairvoyant and astrologers would fare better...but making a guess as wild as that - let apart for the moment sympathies for or grudges against Israel - is just a plain timewaster unless of course it is driven by some misleading PR agenda.. - Hayk H.

Igor -- how many Americans and Europeans, from presidents and heads of state on down, have been attacked by pro-Israel activists at this point -- often viciously attacked? (See, for instance, Pamela Geller's posts on Barack Obama at Atlas Shrugs: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_s...) This is one of those fateful trendlines that tends to give credence to this scenario. Israel should never have become an issue of ugly contention in American and European politics. - Sean McBride

Apartheid...ok, I know some people call it that. But a CIA report calling it that? An official US government report using the Apartheid with the word Israel? Doesn't that raise the 'bs' meter to some folks? That would be basically unheard of. I mean, the use of that word alone raises into question the entire existence (or lack thereof) of this report. Has anyone seen a link that doesn't... more... - Andrew Leyden

Andrew -- the previous Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, used the word "apartheid" to describe self-destructive trends in Israeli politics. The meme has been out there in a big way for some time. Try Googling ~israel ~apartheid for a torrent of results. It wouldn't be surprising if the CIA has noticed. - Sean McBride

Sean are you calling Vatican city an apartheid state? Should Jews Catholic, Muslims, Gays, Atheists, and all kind of agnostic people reside at Vatican City, just because Sean is an Atheist who denounces all religious believes? - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Sean, by the same logic, America needs to remove "In God we Trust" from its currency. Remove One nation under God in its Constitution. Why not in #PurplCow we trust? or even PurpleCows! Or better yet, in Sean McBride we trust, Oh Lordship! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Hi Sean. I've done a google search but all I get is the same old same old. Quotes read almost verbatim from other quotes (i.e. a key sign that it is a story being passed virally rather than others having seen something and writing independently). Many of the sites who have picked up the story are biased, to say the least. Maybe I'm just more skeptical than most, and if there is a report I'd like to see more (really, I'd like to see it), but even just a quick search has my BS detector beeping. - Andrew Leyden

I'm pretty sure "one nation under god" does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Yes, John it is in the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America which is charted by the constitution! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Andrew -- you find it unrealistic that that the CIA might be speculating that Israel could be facing the same fate as apartheid white South Africa? Nothing could be more realistic -- these ideas have been circulating at the highest policy circles around the world for years now (including in Israel). - Sean McBride

Igor, certainly you are not trying to have a rational discussion with Sean on this subject, are you? It's not possible but anyway, I enjoy your fervor. - Myrna

Maybe America needs to pledge allegiance to CIA, or Rober Scoble, or FAIL WHALE LMAO #failwhale - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Yes, it's in a revised version of the Pledge of Allegiance, but the Pledge and the Constitution are different documents. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Myrna, thanks! I am just trying to point out what type of hypocrite Sean McBride is. And how much alternative agenda PR propaganda Sean has been doing on FriendFeed anti-Israel and against the Jewish people, for the past year. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

This is the same bunch of wizards that completely missed the fall of the Soviet Union, right? - MVB (Grinch of FF)

Never happen. This sounds like more end of the worlder stuff. As that is the only way Israel would dissolve. Historically Israel has zero in common with South Africa. - Todd Hoff

Igor -- should non-ethnic Germans be barred from living in Germany or be deported from Germany? Wait -- that was tried. It was called Nazism. Apartheid white South Aftica also tried to play that game. - Sean McBride

John, I realize the Pledge and the Constitution are different documents, but you Pledge to the country which is governed and created by the Constitution. under the declaration of independence. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

I'm not sure if the time for a two-state solution has passed, but I think it's perilously close. The trouble is that Israel's moderates will have to fight hard against extremist elements to get any such solution implemented (when I say "extremists" I mean people of the sort that assassinated Rabin). That fight will take time and effective leadership, which I doubt Netanyahu can provide given his dependence on right-wing elements to stay in power. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

"Israel risks apartheid-like struggle if two-state solution fails, says Olmert" (November 30, 2007) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world... "Israel's prime minister issued a rare warning yesterday that his nation risked being compared to apartheid-era South Africa if it failed to agree an independent state for the Palestinians. In an interview with the Israeli newspaper... more... - Sean McBride

Well Sean, when you can show yourself as unbiased individual, ny talking about other stuff besides Israel and the Jewish people, we can have an open and logical discussion. Until then, please study the Jewish history, like millenniums of persecution from Exile to Egypt as slave to Holocaust. Now read this article to start with The Western Wall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Sean, you're not really that gullible are you? Obviously Ehud Olmert had his personal/political motives when he made those comments. LOOOOL - Myrna

Myrna -- is the substance of Olmert's comments correct? Israel is now in a state of sharp conflict with the entire Western democratic world over the issue of settlements -- we've seen this pattern before with militant ethnocentric states that got on the wrong side of mainstream Western democratic values and trends. - Sean McBride

There are 4,720,000 Google hits on the Israeli apartheid issue -- it is huge: http://www.google.com/#q=~isr... One doesn't need the presence of an alleged secretive CIA report on the matter to get the picture. The controversy is screaming at one in full public view. - Sean McBride

Sean - Do I think the US is speculating Israel may end up like South Africa? Yup. Have people called it Apartheid? Yup. Do I think this specific report is bogus? Yes. It fails on so many alarms it's not funny. EVERY google reference I could find was a direct verbatim link back to the original, which is apparently from PRESS.TV! I mean, Press.TV. It uses loaded language like Apartheid,... more... - Andrew Leyden

Sean, you are in the 1% vision of our limited 5 senses. :) Haven't you ever had something happen in your ownpersonal life that were completely unexplainable? Whether Israel lives on is in the 99%. It's not up for discussion unless you simply want a back and forth intellectual dialogue. - Myrna

Amein! Now Sean, go have a Cheezeburger! LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Myrna -- are you saying that you have access to mystical faculties that permit you to refute and dismiss Ehud Olmert's remarks about apartheid without any rational arguments? :) Or am I misunderstanding you? Where do you think the current conflict between Israel and the Western democratic world over Israeli settlements is going? - Sean McBride

Sean, I think you have enough energy on this post for it to qualify for 'best of the day' maybe best of the month lol :))) - Myrna

Andrew -- I don't know whether this report exists or not. I do know that the points of view that are being ascribed to the alleged report are being discussed openly in high policy circles all around the world, and within the United States. An Israeli prime minister gave a strong push to the meme in 2007 (see the quote from the Guardian article above). The debate over these issues... more... - Sean McBride

20 years, isn't that what the scholars said about capitalism? - xero

Sean, I think whatever is 'supposed' to happen...WILL! I think that the settlers will be forced to give up their need to 'hoard'(due to their own fear) and stop letting their egos control their behavior. That said, there are lessons for Israel and the rest of the world that continue to show up. Each of us(including regions, states, etc) have lessons to work through which can't be... more... - Myrna

xero -- some analysts predicted that the apartheid white regime in South Africa would collapse; that the U.S. war in Vietnam would fail; that the newspaper industry would collapse; that the American automotive industry would collapse; that Communism would collapse; that the Iraq War would prove to be a debacle for the United States, etc. Sometimes forecasters get it right. - Sean McBride

Myrna -- with regard to karma: I've read a great deal of Buddhist texts and am wide open to non-rational modes of consciousness. But I've noticed that political movements which rely heavily on mysticism and messianism tend to misread reality and self-destruct on a regular basis. With regard to the settlements and settlers: my prediction is the opposite of yours. I am predicting that... more... - Sean McBride

Forecasts sometimes turn out to be right, but sometimes turn out to be wrong because of forces the forecasters didn't foresee. A wrong forecast doesn't mean forecasts are not worth taking seriously; they represent potential scenarios based on current trends. If this is really a CIA report, it's worth considering since they likely have access to information that we don't. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Andrew: wow -- the discussion about this alleged CIA report has been much more widespread than I realized. I just did a quick Google search and discovered: http://www.google.com/#q=cia+... Since Ehud Olmert, Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu and dozens of other leading political figures and intellectuals have outlined a similar scenario in recent years, it's not surprising... more... - Sean McBride

Igorovich, interesting you mention the Wailing Wall. Isn't that is a rather late historical invention? Wasn't for centuries the Mount of Olives the place were the destruction of the temple was celebrated? This CIA report is clearly a hoax, but not such a bad one. The best hoaxes always contain a grain of truth. - LeaNder

Temple Mount is where the temple was, Mount of Olives is higher than the Temple Mount and was used for celebration and mornings for the temple. But these aside, read the Wikipedia page on Western Wall to see how the Jews were persecuted and denied to pray there, by the Arabs. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Israel vs. the Western democratic world: the Western democratic world strongly: 1. opposes Jewish settlements in the occupied territories 2. supports the creation of a viable Palestinian state 3. opposes a military attack on Iran. 4. opposes ethnic nationalist, religious nationalist, and ethno-religious nationalist states in general. The United States has just been badly burned in a war... more... - Sean McBride

FriendFolks….. hel-lo!!??? All this talk for and against Sean's bullshit hypothesis is of no consequence. Go, take a look at the map. Israel has nowhere to go, and so, if threatened with destruction, it will make life pretty unbearable for its attackers (current concentration-camp-like conditions in Gaza will be nothing in comparison: http://www.paltoday.com/arabic...... more... - ianf ⌘

ianf -- there are more subtle factors in play than military force in the rise and fall of nations throughout history. Apartheid white South Africa was highly confident in its military prowess and its ability to mete out suffering to its opponents. Still, it sank like a stone. Ethnic nationalist states in general are on shaky ground in the 21st century -- history has passed them by. - Sean McBride

Let's get something clear here, Sean. You can pontificate on the historical parallels or analogies all you like but, for reasons too various to mention, Israel established itself firmly where it is when it was given half a chance (in 1947-1948). The Palestinian Arabs didn't grab the same chance then extended to them - nor any other, however crippled, chances they had later (Anwar Sadat... more... - ianf ⌘

I can't think of a forecast over a period longer than 2 years that has ever been met as expected. - xero

ianf -- within the larger sweep of history, these arguments back and forth about who is right and who is wrong are meaningless. The rise and fall of nations is always the product of an intersection and combination of real-world physical factors. Nations and regimes on the decline are almost always in denial, and are usually brimming over with clever arguments assembled by propagandists like Frank Luntz to explain why what is really happening isn't really happening. - Sean McBride

xero -- I can think of quite a few forecasts over periods longer than 2 years that have been accurate on the main points, if not on all the details and particulars. I've made a few of them myself. :) It's not difficult: simply see clearly what is directly in front of your nose and trust your own perceptions. - Sean McBride

I've spoken to Benny Morris last year after a public lecture on the possible outcomes of the Israeli-Arab conflicts [amend: pluralis] in the region, too complex to summarize here. He concluded the talk with this (here paraphrased) winged sentence: "Of course, all those scenarios will be moot once Iran reaches the stage of producing enough plutonium - after which all bets are off." Benny... more... - ianf ⌘

ianf -- I've read Benny Morris's books, and know his story -- and am pleased to see that you are familiar with his thinking also. Obviously you've invested some serious effort in trying to figure out this complex situation. Apparently we've come to different conclusions after analyzing the key data and trends, but differences keep the world interesting. - Sean McBride

How to predict social, political, cultural, scientific and technological futures: identify the best, the strongest upcoming minds in any field or area of activity, and graph where they are trending. They will often be trending directly against the status quo and into the unimaginable. - Sean McBride

Andrew and Leander: I am pretty good at spotting hoaxes, and have often called them out when they appear on the Internet. After mulling over the comments about this alleged CIA report, I think it is for real, although the description of the report may be distorted here and there in the particulars. Why do I think it is real? Look and feel. Political context. Style. It smells like the... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, are you happy? You don't give it up for 1 second. Take a hint from ianf. RELAX!!! What do you do for fun..analyze the world situation? If you really had the answer, then what? How are you helping the world to be more sharing, giving, caring and loving? - Myrna

Sean, you are a False Prophet, Israel will survive. The Jews will survive. Israel is given by God to the Jewish people as a gift to the whole world. Please read this post and the comments http://www.igorthetroll.com/blog... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

One sees more irrationality, illogic and fantastical and magical thinking associated with Mideast politics than with probably any other topic under the sun. It's fascinating stuff, and exceedingly dangerous stuff. - Sean McBride

I reccon Israel will prolly be about where it is in 20 years. - Will Higgins™

Igor: you should check out Glenn C. Altschuler's "Einstein and Complex Analyses of Zionism" in the July 24, 2009 issue of Forward: http://www.forward.com/article...: "“Judaism Does Not Equal Israel” is a sharper — and shriller — version of Einstein’s critique of the Jewish state. A “post-Holocaust” theology, according to Marc Ellis, professor of Jewish studies and director of the... more... - Sean McBride

(Continued) "'Acknowledging that Israel is not likely “to reverse its expansionist course,” Ellis ends with mourning — and a warning. No state, he writes, apocalyptically, can exercise power over others indefinitely. As the day of reckoning nears, the children of Israel “will encounter such hollowness at the core of Jewish identity that their distance from things Jewish will increase until, incrementally, the core disappears” and Jewish affiliation dwindles “to the point of no return.”" - Sean McBride

Sean, The Judaism core will never disappear.Israel will never disappear. Israel and Judaism is one and the same. Judaism will live forever. This is God's will. Amein - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- many of the best Jewish minds of the last century, including Albert Einstein and Marc Ellis, strongly disagree with the claim promoted by religious Zionists and Jewish fundamentalists that Zionism = Judaism. In fact, they have argued persuasively that that cult belief is a form of false messianism that is destined to provoke a great catastrophe for the Jewish tradition. I am placing my bets on those thinkers, not on the fundamentalists. - Sean McBride

google(false ~messianism OR ~messiah http://www.google.com/#q=fals...) Also: google(false ~messianism OR ~messiah harkabi http://www.google.com/#q=fals...) - Sean McBride

My bet is with God. So is my heart and my soul. ;-) - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

I don't buy the comparison with South Africa in part because of the strict economic sanctions South Africa suffered due to Apartheid that Israel does not suffer (well, yet). It may be a real report, but strikes me as so much speculation right now. - Rob Haas

I'm talking from a different angle(I'm not Jewish, Muslim or Palestinian or American.... or even interested about religion) but aren't you all sick of this conflict? The area is so beautiful, with a huge potential. Most of us(and most of the region's population) weren't even alive during the Holocaust or during the Exodus for that matter. Most of us don't even care if you're Jewish or Palestinian or a fricking martian for that matter. - Bogdan Costea

Let me see: They have our money, they have our military, they have first spot in our markets, they command our leaders, they tell us how bad we are, We do everything for them except for that little operation ar distinguishes them. So what more do they want???? - ThatDBD

First of all, that is the one of the most shady and terribly written articles I have ever seen. Hard to see that as an authoritative source. Second, there are zillions of experts predicting the future all the time. How many end up being right? Not many. I think that with the ever increasing trend of anti-semitism around the world, more and more Jews will seek to make their lives in... more... - Miriam

Miriam -- since a former Israeli prime minister (Ehud Olmert) and a former American president (Jimmy Carter) have already pushed this meme into public discourse, it wouldn't be surprising to learn that the CIA has been exploring this scenario in secret. I am betting that the story is essentially true. The references to the collapse of white South Africa and the Soviet Union sound very CIA-ish stylistically. - Sean McBride

"biased-for-rationality" self-perception and social perception ... Igorovitch, your sermon I should study Jewish history and antisemitism is late by several decades now. Do want me to list what I read about it. How about comparing? What did you read? My problem in a nutshell: based on my knowledge, I am slightly puzzled by the similarities of the Jewish perception of the "Arab mind". - LeaNder

"Israel is given by God to the Jewish people as a gift to the whole world. ", yes indeed, it looks like. The gift of WWIII/IV and armageddon. - LeaNder

Armageddon is something that will come if the world makes it come. There is always hope for the human race. If you looking to blame Israel and the Jews for your problems, get in line! You will not be first, or the last to do it.. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Miriam -- I was under the impression that the rate of emigration from Israel now exceeds the rate of immigration. Did I get that wrong? It is also interesting that most of the most fervent pro-Israel activists on the net have chosen not to live in Israel. For them, Israel is mostly a myth and a fantasy. For many reasons, they would prefer to live in the United States or Europe, which... more... - Sean McBride

Miriam: google(israel ~emigration ~immigration) popped up this article at the head of the search results: "Emigration from Israel exceeds immigration, report" http://stlouis.ujcfedweb.org/page... "Almost half of the country's young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said. Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a... more... - Sean McBride

Who will make Armageddon come are fanatics, armed with WMDs, who believe that an angry and vengeful God is on their side in an apocalyptic struggle against the rest of the world. - Sean McBride

Bogdan Costea -- you are voicing basic beliefs that are held by all modern Western democratic societies: enough with the ethnic and religious ranting! :) It couldn't be more simple. - Sean McBride

Ok, Sean, you do not want to be honest, I am telling all my friends Jews and conservatives to stay awy from you and your debate. You bait us to come your slender antisemitic thread, and they you sanitize and refactor the comments to fit your biased hidden agenda! Have a nice day! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- feel free to post any comments in this thread that are civil (an absolute requirement) and, preferably, factual and rational. With regard to your claim that God is on your side: most educated people do not make that claim, because they are familiar with the long history of savage and genocidal bloodshed conducted by various parties and sects, all of which claimed that God was on... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, we are not talking in the vacuum! All I asked what country do you live in and what is your profession. I did not ask you for your credit card number. I would like to know what is your interest in Israel and the Jews. simple questions! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- why would you try to tell other people with whom they should speak or debate? That is the kind of attitude one finds in totalitarian cults. With regard to my agenda, I couldn't be more direct and honest: I think fundamentalist thinking of all kinds represents a grave threat to the American interest, and to the well-being of the human race at large. I have lately been... more... - Sean McBride

Oh, and I have no problem telling people what I do. I have no hidden agendas. I am a Israeli citizen, a Jew, living in Japan. I am a businessman, who likes to travel and write. ;-) - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- I am an American citizen and have always lived in the United States. I do computer consulting. One of my interests is American foreign policy in general, and American Mideast policy in particular -- this is a very big topic on the American scene for all the obvious reasons. What is your nationality and where do you live? - Sean McBride

Thank you! As I wrote above, I am an Israeli citizen, a Jew, living in Japan. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- so this is where we differ: when you discuss Mideast politics, you are arguing from the standpoint of what you perceive to be your ethnic interests and the Israeli interest, which is perfectly legitimate. Most Americans view and analyze Mideast politics from the standpoint of the American interest, period. They do not live in an Israel-centric universe. (Christian Zionists and... more... - Sean McBride

Sean: Some advice: Don't feed the trolls. Chuckle at their statements, but don't give in to the temptation to reply. When you engage with them, they win. I should know, I've been a troll, myself. - Chris, Taskerrific Guy

Chris -- I take the point of view that anyone can possibly be redeemed -- even trolls, :) I always give them an opportunity to try to make sense and enter into a real conversation -- up to a point. - Sean McBride

Igor -- regarding Jewish issues: I confess to being a philo-Semite, and even, on occasion, a Jewish supremacist, in the sense that I believe that Jewish civilization has generated a more interesting conversation about the world than any other civilization I can think of. A majority of the minds that have most impressed and influenced me have been Jewish. But none of these luminaries... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, is calling me a Troll part of rational debate? If you want rational debate from me and other Jewish conservatives, treat us with respect, and do not use ad hominem against us when it is convenient to slender us on Robert Scoble, Alex Scoble or any other place where it fits your agenda. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- dropping "The Troll" from your user name might be a good public relations move. :) - Sean McBride

Sean if I wish to wear Magen David on my forehead, or a Jew in my name, that is my choice and my right? But when you see me with a sign Jew, are You going to call me Jew, Nick? - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- for me, Jewishness is more about a set of elevated universal values than about simple ethnicity: love of learning and scholarship, the quest for truth and universal justice, charity and philanthropy, love of family, etc. Focusing too much on the ethnic nationalist side of the Jewish tradition draws attention away from the values which matter most, and which command the greatest... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, if you love Jews and Judaism so much, show some respect to the Jewish people, and try to get to know them. Not just their ideas, but what makes them who they are.Keep it up, we may convert you one of these days! hahhahhahahahhaha ;-) - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- I have already shown great respect and affection for many Jews, but on the basis of their individual achievements. I neither love nor hate entire ethnic groups -- that is an attitude that is walking perilously close to primitive racism. Ethnic groups are abstractions -- what matters is the individual behavior of members of those groups, and the ways in which those individuals... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, I wish what you have just said were true, but you have attacked, marginalized, labeled and called irrational me and my Jewish friends all other FriendFeed. If you want rationality from me, Noah, Akiva, and other Jewish friendffeders, you should show us respect, or we will just feed you Sean haz a Cheezburger! ;-) - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- is it fair to say that you, Noah David Simon and Akiva Moskovitz are religious Zionists whose views do not reflect those of the large majority of Jews? We have honest intellectual disagreements. I have treated you all with civility and offered you the opportunity to express your views at whatever length you choose. I am under no obligation to automatically agree with whatever... more... - Sean McBride

I never said I am a Zionist, but you have labeled me as one. I do not know if Noah is religious or a Zionist, you need to ask him. I do not even know if Akiva is a Zionist and religious. You are jumping to conclusions and labeling us, and then you have the audacity to call us irrational for having certain believes or not! What is rational, something that you determine is so and approve?... more... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- religious Zionism is by definition the belief that Israel and Zionism (the ethnic nationalist movement founded by Theodor Herzl) is a sacred enterprise ordained by God and originating in biblical commandments. Leading Jewish and Israeli scholars have written hundreds of valuable books on the subject -- check them out on Amazon.com. There is nothing defamatory about the term --... more... - Sean McBride

One admires Einstein because he made revolutionary contributions to physics that were grounded in reality. He was a brilliant universalist, not a strident ethnic nationalist. - Sean McBride

Again with libels, who are you calling Strindent Ethnic Nationalist? Go read my blog, go read Noah's blog. Get to know something about us, besides your first perception of us because Scoble called us Jerks and blocked us. If you are intelligent man, do you need Scoble to guide your judgement? LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- if you can explain how your views differ from those of religious Zionists, do so. You have repeatedly invoked "God" as the driving force behind Israel, right? In the world of politics, the invocation of God to justify one's actions is usually the projection of the will to power by various interest groups. Anyone can play that game. - Sean McBride

Why are you asking me about God? Read the bible. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Thanks for making my case once again. - Sean McBride

case? - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

The following is mainly of anecdotic value, but in a sense symptomatic of the "spirit" of any "Sean-imaginary" understanding the Israeli villains should be seeking with their Palestinian brethren: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News... (fetched from Israeli press, ergo obviously biased against, etc, etc.) - ianf ⌘

Sean, I feel that your circular rhetoric polemic agreement is just for the sake of arguing. You like to debate! LOL If not, what is the point of all of this? - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor, your reasoning about Sean's reasoning being circular is also circular - endlessly debating is what we do here in lieu of throwing physical objects at one another. Of course it's circular! But so is objecting to it being merely for argument's sake… - ianf ⌘

lets play chess LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

ianf -- It's a pity that the PA didn't give Daniel Barenboim a deserved warm and generous welcome. The grievances on both sides are now so many and so bitter that one sees no light at the end of this tunnel. - Sean McBride

Pity had nothing to do with it. It's sheer lunacy mixed with inferiority complex in search of imaginary moral compensation. Let's call a spade a spade. - ianf ⌘

ianf -- the parties to this conflict are trapped in an infinite loop of tit-for-tat. Most of us would like to steer clear of that particular mess and of ethnic and religious wars in general. There is a better way to live. Members of all ethnic and religious groups are studying, working and socializing side-by-side at universities like Stanford, MIT and Caltech. It's the American Way. - Sean McBride

Really? Was that PA's tit, or its tat? (I get lost so easily). So what should be the Israeli(?), or merely the Barenboimist falange's "proportional response" to that, the one that'd find favor with the Middle-Eastern commentariat? - ianf ⌘

ianf -- read Benny Morris's first book, and you'll appreciate the historical context: book(Benny Morris; The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949; 1989; Cambridge University Press; http://www.amazon.com/dp...) Situations like this can be remembered for centuries, or even longer. - Sean McBride

Sean, re emigration exceeding immigration - that has been true probably since the State was established. However, more and more yordim (emigrants) are returning to Israel, and as I said above, more and more new immigrants are arriving. Emigration may still exceed immigration, but there is a growing feeling among world Jewry that they are not welcome in their countries (I wonder why). As... more... - Miriam

Sean, if you want to be taken seriously, and dazzle us now and then with –not only your obvious scholarship– but also more mundane abilities such as correctly editing Amazon's urls down to their universal minimalist form (which hasn't escaped my attention), then you should consider answering direct on-topical questions directly, rather than veer off onto tangential issues. Especially as... more... - ianf ⌘

ianf -- Israelis have many places to go, and are often going there: the United States and Europe are favorite destinations. Every argument that has been proposed to counter the (alleged) CIA scenario was used to "prove" that there was no conceivable way that white South Africa could collapse. (I am used to seeing outrageous and obviously impossible predictions come true -- I've made a few myself. There is a black art to this kind of thing.) - Sean McBride

ianf, you're my hero!! But what I don't understand is how you can continue this conversation with Sean. It feels like 'cow chewing cud' - Myrna

Ianf, these are the words that lifted you to 'my hero' status, not far from where it was already! "Sean, if you want to be taken seriously, and dazzle us now and then with –not only your obvious scholarship.." Sean, you should LISTEN to Ianf, not just reply back in gobblie-gook. - Myrna

Miriam -- Israel is now in sharp conflict with the entire world (and especially the Western democratic world) over several issues: the West strongly opposes Israeli settlements in the occupied territories; strongly opposes a military attack on Iran; strongly opposes Israel's racist foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman; and strongly supports the creation of a viable Palestinian state.... more... - Sean McBride

A basic rule of social behavior: if you are bogged down in angry confrontations about your ethnic issues with ethnic outsiders, you have already lost. There is no conceivable way that you can win. This is a fundamental feature of human nature that is so obvious that it is difficult to understand how anyone could miss it. - Sean McBride

Sean, you are so in your head/intellectualizing every second. Do you ever pause? I can't put my finger on it exactly but your words just don't make sense to me. Maybe Ianf can help on this one. It's like you're talking in 'bible semantics' where one has to translate and read between the lines to understand what Sean is really saying or feeling. What is YOUR point in all this. How do you feel about what you're saying? - Myrna

Tell you something, Sean… you're so Full-o-Solutions™ and Clear-o-Thinking® in Middle-Eastern matters, that it'd be a pity not to to listen to what you have to say. Maybe, just maybe, you are the Messiah, or at least some other Promethean Messenger personified who, if given half a chance, will make the Arabs, and the Israelis, sit down in proscribed Sean-approved manner, and chew on... more... - ianf ⌘

LOOOOOOOOOOOL! Now I can go meditate and smile, Ianf - Myrna

ianf -- I don't have any solutions to Israel's problems in the Mideast. I think this situation is going to end as a catastrophe, in the precisely the same way that I think that the newspaper industry has no future. This stuff is not difficult to figure out. Any student of history knows that ethnic nationalism ran out of steam and legitimacy midway through the 20th century. Which ethnic nationalist movements around the world do you support besides your own? - Sean McBride

Myrna -- no offense, but I haven't seen you post anything resembling a rational thought in this thread or any other on Friendfeed. I am curious: do you side with the American government or the Israeli government on the matter of settlements, Avigdor Lieberman, a Palestinian state, a war against Iran, etc.? In what sense are you actually a progressive? You are highly emotional about defending one of the most right-wing regimes on the planet. Why? - Sean McBride

[Cont'd] Of course, there's always the possibility that you're a false Messiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...) who's not even aware of being either that or, perhaps, a true one after all… "you meet all kinds in this line of work" [Mark Knopfler]. That would make your starting point for building a lasting peace in the Middle East harder, but not by much, considering the immensity of the project. - ianf ⌘

Sean, who says I'm defending anyone or anything? My gripe is the way you present your thoughts and feelings. It's effect is pushing me away. And about presenting a rational thought, maybe I'm not rational or maybe you just haven't followed my thinking or feeling. I have no 'blanket' black or white decisions or 'sidings'. Every single situation presents a different and new dimension of a... more... - Myrna

Myrna -- please: it's obvious that criticism of Israel pushes your emotional buttons. If those kinds of posts upset you, and if you are unable to express your disagreement with them in a rational way, you should simply stop reading them. These posts of yours in this thread are embarrassing. - Sean McBride

ianf -- you still haven't addressed the main point: how is ethnic nationalism, particularly ethnic nationalism based on religion, anything but an irritant in human affairs, and especially in the modern Western democratic context? Why do you think it is that so many Americans and Europeans have grown weary with Mideast tribal wars based on primitive myths and superstitions? Most... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, I will address that [highly interesting btw] point when you respond straight the few simple questions you chose to bypass above; do we have a deal? - ianf ⌘

ianf, Miriam, Myrna and Igor: currently I am getting my news about Mideast politics from this bundle of feeds: http://friendfeed.com/mideast... What are your sources? Mideast politics is like every other topic under the sun, including cutting-edge tech topics and research fronts: the better your sources of information, the more likely you are to make accurate predictions. If you... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, you have indicated at least 10 different so-so-solutions for the Middle East, all of them stemming from an Israel-is-the-villain position. Indeed, there's no end to Israeli, if not Jewish, transgressions upon their peace-loving, ethnic-nationalism-pure fellow Palestinians [yes, Sean, there was a time still in human memory, time of the Ottoman Empire and then British Palestina... more... - ianf ⌘

You don't have to tell me Sean where you get your news "about Mideast politics" from, I already know that: Google searches and <http://friendfeed.com/mideast...>. That's some scholarship shining through right there. - ianf ⌘

ianf -- where do you get your news about Mideast politics from? What feeds do you follow? - Sean McBride

following this thread and McBride is much more in depth than that - sofarsoShawn

ianf -- "Israel-is-the-villain position" -- that's the paranoid and self-absorbed ethnocentric lens through which to view this controversy. I think ethnic nationalism and religious fundamentalism collectively and in general are the villain. Anyone who plays that game will inevitably get stuck in the same self-destructive patterns, over and over again. Why do you think it is that America... more... - Sean McBride

"Myrna -- please: it's obvious that criticism of Israel pushes your emotional buttons. If those kinds of posts upset you, and if you are unable to express your disagreement with them in a rational way, you should simply stop reading them. These posts of yours in this thread are embarrassing" Gee Shawn, it wasn't my intention to cause a defensive comment from you. Who are my posts embarrassing to and if its you please feel free to delete. Good luck to you! - Myrna

Myrna -- I think your intention has been to try to disrupt this thread with nonsense -- one sees this kind of behavior all the time in discussions about Mideast politics -- it's standard operating procedure. Many important issues have been raised in this thread -- you haven't addressed any of them. - Sean McBride

Myrna, you're much too kind, I can write this stuff with (still unpainted) toes of me left foot. You should have watched me some other times (and you will) when I was called names because my opponents could not respond coherently to rational arguments [once exposed, they tend to leave FF]. Sean uses some of the same tactics, but he's also driven by the fixed idea of the Middle East... more... - ianf ⌘

Some issues in play in this thread: American interests, American trans-ethnic values, American universalist values, apartheid white South Africa, Avigdor Lieberman, Christian Armageddonists, Christian Zionists, Confederacy, ethnic discrimination, ethnic nationalism, ethno-religious nationalism, European interests, false messianic movements, Iran War, Iranian oil, Iraq War, Israeli... more... - Sean McBride

Very worthy list, Sean. You forgot copycat Lego bricks (a huge problem worldwide); cow-originating CO2 and methane emissions, and a couple more. Throw them all into the mix, and what do you get? Why, another Nakba! - ianf ⌘

ianf -- some people have a talent for playing around with the Lego bricks and coming up with provably correct and reality-based conclusions and predictions on a fairly consistent basis. They can read the tea leaves, see the most strategic patterns in the noise. That's the black art of political, social and cultural forecasting. - Sean McBride

The first step in the black art: set aside all your biases, emotional attachments and earnest agendas, and look at the data with cold eyes. When the data goes against you, don't flinch. Eat the pain. Readjust your beliefs and plans. Or not -- and end up like Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, white South Africa, Iraq War enthusiasts, the newspaper industry, the American automotive industry, etc. - Sean McBride

@SB: one of the common elements i see running through prescient geo-politcal analysis is that the successful commentators 1) have an excellent knowledge of history; 2) have the ability to find links and similarities between seemingly disparate events/topics; 3) are able to get beyond the parochial aspects of a topic and expose the underlying assumptions and biases in typical 'framing'... more... - MikeAmundsen

Mike -- beautifully said. Successful prognosticators are able to absorb huge amounts of data from diverse sources, see all the subtle and unusual links among the data in creative ways, but still grasp the big picture and how all the vectors are interacting and are likely to interact in the future, while setting aside their own desires, wishes and biases. Unsuccessful prognosticators are... more... - Sean McBride

Mike -- I've mentioned Kevin Phillips' "American Theocracy" several times lately, which I recently listened to in audiobook format in my car. Phillips is a perfect example of a political analyst who is able to make successful prognostications on the basis of an objective analysis of reams of data, both contemporary and historical. [book(Kevin Phillips; American Theocracy: The Peril and... more... - Sean McBride

As Myrna said, after a while it gets tiring. May I therefore direct those of you who still care to this new summarizing item: http://ff.im/5mnZf - ianf ⌘

ianf -- that's an innovative use of Friendfeed to post research sources -- I like it. As for the topic becoming tiresome: that is precisely my point. Most Americans and Europeans would love to drop it (including most American and European Jews, I suspect). One possible scenario/solution on the horizon: an amicable divorce between the U.S./Europe and Israel. Those with an appetite for an endless loop of holy land mayhem will always be free to move there and to enjoy the apocalyptic festivities. - Sean McBride

@Sean I'm sorry, but comparing the current Israeli / Palestinian situation to the fall of South African apartheid, much less the rise of Nazi Germany is bizarrely absurd, even for you. The context is so far from similar that I find it rather shocking you'd even try to make the connection - all the more so given your continual attempts to point out everyone else's framing distortions,... more... - Forrest Cox

Forrest Cox -- browse through the above comments: the comparisons to apartheid white South Africa are coming from a former Israeli prime minister, a former American president and from many leading and influential political thinkers around the world. Google it -- you will be deluged. From my standpoint, you are in denial. How many non-Jews are welcome in Israeli settlements in the... more... - Sean McBride

Forrest: the discussion on Israeli/South African connections around the world is immense: http://www.google.com/#q=~isr... Try to do an objective analysis of the subject. - Sean McBride

@Sean - your quote re: the former Israeli PM is taken out of context, former American Presidents have proven about as astute in predicting the future as has the crazy Christian bible salesman yelling to the high heavens about the apocalypse down on the corner of Market and 8th, and "leading" and "influential" thinkers have been responsible for over and over again for calamity after... more... - Forrest Cox

@SB: yep, KPhillips has done some very interesting work. personally, i find his books a 'tough slog,' but that's for me to deal with<g>. i readily admit there are lots of things about Phillips' views i don't care for, but i have learned a great deal from him. his "Wealth and Democracy" was quite a read! - MikeAmundsen

@Sean - re: the links, thanks so much for proving my point about you. Put no thought at all into the inherent biases held by the authors you refer to (might they be apt to compare Israel to one of the most bigoted and oppressive regimes of the late-20th century, despite the obvious mechanistic differences between the two, because they, you know, HATE Israel?). Claim that their thinking,... more... - Forrest Cox

Me think Sean is just a Troll. LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Forrest Cox -- Ehud Olmert hates Israel? The only pro-Israel supporters I am aware of who use that kind of inciting language with regard to Israeli prime ministers are extremists on the far right. One of them assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. - Sean McBride

I file these Forrest Cox comments under "attacks on Americans and Europeans by pro-Israel activists and militants." This is the trendline to watch if you want to understand the future of Israel and its increasing self-ghettoization, especially in relation to the Western democratic world. I've stopped taking the attacks personally -- many American, European and Israeli political leaders have endured much worse from the Israeli right. - Sean McBride

Forrest Cox: check out this Haaretz report: article(Gideon Levy; Twilight Zone / 'Worse than apartheid'; Haaretz; July 7, 2008 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen...) Human rights activists with direct experience of apartheid white South Africa characterized conditions in Israel as being WORSE than in South Africa: "I thought they would feel right at home in the alleys of... more... - Sean McBride

More from Haaretz: "Equally harsh are the remarks of the editor-in-chief of the Sunday Times of South Africa, Mondli Makhanya, 38. "When you observe from afar you know that things are bad, but you do not know how bad. Nothing can prepare you for the evil we have seen here. In a certain sense, it is worse, worse, worse than everything we endured. The level of the apartheid, the racism... more... - Sean McBride

This is the Mideast political news that I am flagging on a daily basis as important: https://friendfeed.com/search... (These flexible Friendfeed URLs are cool.) - Sean McBride

Forrest: more from Haaretz: "Under apartheid, whites and blacks met in certain places. The Israelis and the Palestinians do not meet any longer at all. The separation is total. It seems to me that the Israelis would like the Palestinians to disappear. There was never anything like that in our case. The whites did not want the blacks to disappear. I saw the settlers in Silwan [in East Jerusalem] - people who want to expel other people from their place." - Sean McBride

Sean, go live in Israel. - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Sean, your obsession with Israel is puzzling to me, as is the obsession of others like you who have the whole world's humanitarian transgressions to get up-in-arms about but choose to focus obsessively on Israel (how about China, Sudan, Iran, Egypt, etc.?). Why do Sudanese refugees risk their lives to get over the border from Egypt into Israel (many of whom have been shot and killed by... more... - Miriam

Miriam -- are you coming from an Orthodox Jewish perspective on Zionist and Israeli issues? Which authors and sources have most influenced your thinking on the subject? Which political party in Israel do you favor? Do you support Jewish settlements in the occupied territories? Do you support any ethnic nationalist movements other than your own? And can you provide some examples of Jews... more... - Sean McBride

Miriam: and: can you think of any good reasons for why the American government pays very close attention to Mideast politics, and to Israeli politics in particular? Why are the American media so "obsessed" with the topic? - Sean McBride

Sean, it's not only the US gov. that's obsessed with Israel. It's the world. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for this. There are so many other places with way worse human rights records that the world basically ignores, while obsessing over Israel. If you have an answer I'd love to hear it. - Miriam

Miriam -- there is a simple answer to your question: 1. American taxpayers provide Israel with huge amounts of aid, and the United States is held responsible, often in ways that are destructive for Americans, for all of Israel's policies and actions. 2. The Israeli government has been pursuing a policy of territorial expansion that could easily trigger World War III/IV and reduce the entire world to chaos and ruin. - Sean McBride

I see my comment has been deleted from this thread. that is pathetic. the CIA has statistics that you don't have and the recent demographic analysis are that the demographic ratios are equal growth despite what you are attempting to promote. this goes in contradiction of your argument. if anything Obama has given Israel sympathy because his blatant equivalence of fault and abuse is so... more... - Noah David Simon

"Now (to change the metaphor), the truth has finally got its pants on, and Israel’s Foreign Ministry has released an exhaustive 164-page report which argues that Israel had a right to do what it did under international law, that what it did was not callous, disproportionate or criminal, and — of course — that much of what it was accused of it didn’t do .Those who need to, like Judge... more... - Noah David Simon

Does CriticalAnalyst = Noah David Simon? Noah -- you're missing the big picture, especially the big social/historical picture: messianic ethno-religious nationalist movements of all kinds (like apartheid white South Africa, for instance) are innately self-marginalizing, unstable and unviable in the modern democratic world. Militant ethnocentrism polarizes the entire world against... more... - Sean McBride

no prejudices in Israel. we just don't like hiding behind trees - Noah David Simon

Noah -- how does your comment address the point that messianic ethno-religious nationalist movements of all kinds are self-destructively out of step with modern Western democratic norms and values? How many Friendfeeders do you see bogged down in ethnocentric politics? - Sean McBride

Great conversation (although having blocked Igor, Noah, et als. long ago, it feels a little fragmented, likely for the better).. Miriam, I agree that some people have it out for Israel. But just because some are obsessed doesn't mean they're wrong. I also share Sean's assessment that Israel's actions are often counterproductive to the US’ long-term interests in the region and the world. Yet it seems to me that historically, here in the states, Israel can do no wrong. That needs to change. - Anthony Citrano

Anthony -- pro-Israel activists are responsible for placing Israel at the center of American politics -- they can't stop talking about Israel and Israel's problems, conflicts and enemies. Compare the frequency with which Israel has been mentioned in The New York Times in recent decades with, say, France, Ireland or Japan. At the moment, Israel is the only nation in the world... more... - Sean McBride

messianic thought is modern western thought. it is in no way out of step with goal oriented thinking. believing in an eventuality of a different set of rules is a positive thing in that it allows people to work towards a better world without thinking that they have to be violent till a radical change in physics occurs. the same can not be said of Islam. as for the NYTimes they are wrong... more... - Noah David Simon

Noah -- you're not logically tracking this argument: the issue is messianic *ethno-religious nationalism*. Modern Western democracies do not organize themselves around messianic ethnocentrism or religiosity. The core principle of Americanism is equality of ethnic groups and religions, with an emphasis on individual character, talent and achievement, not on ethnicity or religious affiliation. Modern Western democracies prize individualism and meritocracy. - Sean McBride

Look around you, Noah: how many Friendfeeders are bogged down in ethnic politics, and in ugly confrontations about their ethnic issues? Most Americans discarded this style of politics a long time ago for reasons of enlightened social behavior and simple self-interest. - Sean McBride

you are just full of labels. everyone has a goal and if they don't they are in trouble. you are trying to find a way to other something, but the thing you fear is "Western" thought in itself. Judaism is the root of it all. there were some "theories" that were developed by pagans, but they were never applicable till they were adapted into monotheistic structures. those theories that did... more... - Noah David Simon

Thank G-d we have our prophecies to guide us and G-d's protection to keep Israel strong while the rest of the world falls apart. Get America and the U.K. out of Israel so we can stand strong without any fear of our enemies and be the light unto the nations that we were chosen to be. - David C. Cooper

one facet of Judaic thought is condescended by another. we have no problem with this. we are both a race and a philosophy. every rule leveraged by another wise idea. sound familiar? it is what America is made of. even the essence of our heredity is condescended by the very royal family that is the legend that you hate so much. yes the lineage of the messiah. Soloman's children were not... more... - Noah David Simon

Noah -- all ethno-religious nationalist movements justify their anti-democratic (and often racist) beliefs and behavior with cult mythologies and mysticism. But modern Western democracies are no longer interested in playing that game. The United States, for instance, does not define itself as an Anglo-Christian state or Germany as an Germanic-Christian state (in the ethnic and religious... more... - Sean McBride

you just assumed I claimed ethnicity when I said the opposite. since your peanut gallery is blocking me they are going to assume you repeated what I said. this is unethical. tautological and your audience does not even see my words they only see your accusation which just ignored everything I just said and made an accusation that was the exact opposite. conversation is over. the other... more... - Noah David Simon

Noah -- are you claiming that Zionism isn't an ethnic nationalist movement? No serious historian (including no serious Jewish historian) will agree with you -- Zionism is a classical ethnic nationalist movement. And Zionism is not remotely synonymous with Judaism -- most of the founders of Zionism and Israel were secular humanists, atheists, agnostics or Marxists. As for your repeated... more... - Sean McBride

From an excellent Wikipedia entry on ethnic nationalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... "Ethnic nationalism is a form of nationalism wherein the "nation" is defined in terms of ethnicity. Whatever specific ethnicity is involved, ethnic nationalism always includes some element of descent from previous generations. Furthermore, the central theme of ethnic nationalists is... more... - Sean McBride

Ethnic nationalism vs. civic nationalism (from Wikipedia): "In scholarly literature, ethnic nationalism is usually contrasted with civic nationalism. Ethnic nationalism bases membership of the nation on descent or heredity—often articulated in terms of common blood or kinship—rather than on political membership. Hence, nation-states with strong traditions of ethnic nationalism tend to... more... - Sean McBride

More from Wikipedia: "Ethnic nationalism has sustained criticism because of its use by extremists to advocate racist agendas and genocide, such as the case of Nazi Germany and its extermination of millions of Jews and other ethnic and cultural groups during the Holocaust. More recent acts of violence that used ethnic nationalism as a justification include ethnic cleansing such as the... more... - Sean McBride

Let me try to start unraveling some of Noah's statements: NOAH: "one facet of Judaic thought is condescended by another. we have no problem with this. we are both a race and a philosophy. every rule leveraged by another wise idea. sound familiar? it is what America is made of. even the essence of our heredity is condescended by the very royal family that is the legend that you hate so... more... - Sean McBride

he probably means contradicted - John Hardy

Sean McBride doesn't engage you in dialog. a Jewish and yes Zionist philosophy (same thing) can not be ethnically based if others can join it. example is that my son is not a Jew by the government of Israel. he can choose to become one if he wants when he is ready. @IgorTheTroll2 is a #Mossad operative. Watch out @Hamas - Noah David Simon

Noah -- do Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Asians, Arabs, etc. enjoy equal status, rights, privileges, wealth and power with Jews in Israel? If America defined itself as a Christian state which offered special treatment and privileges for Christians and which discriminated against non-Christians, it wouldn't be a modern Western democracy. Imagine if the United States were now building Anglo-Christian settlements in Canada or Mexico by force and against the will of Canadians and Mexicans. - Sean McBride

Noah -- regarding your repeated invocations of Mossad in a threatening way: how many Friendfeeders, and how many Americans, make violent threats against their ethnic or religious enemies on a regular basis? Messianic ethno-religious nationalism (and much of the tradition of Abrahamic fundamentalism in general) is closely associated with extreme aggression, violence and terrorism. Modern... more... - Sean McBride

Mossad is a keyword that jew haters use online. we co opted it for search reasons. Igor believes you search the word regularly. I'm the one who has to hide behind a tree in the name of your toleration (as Islam states). it is not ethnic related to fear a philosophy that says it wants to kill you - Noah David Simon

Noah, what are you afraid of? If you live in fear, you are better to be dead! If we die in the battle for Israel, then we die because we have not loved Israel enough. Israel, is Life it is what God gave tus so we do not forget Adonay. Live your life and do not fear, for when it is time, God will be near. Baruch Hashem, Amein - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Kahanists have been using the term "Mossad" to issue threats against Americans and Europeans, not a smart move in a climate in which concerns about Mideast terrorism are at an all-time high and in which the life of the current American president, Barack Obama, is being threatened on a daily basis. Kahanist groups are officially designated as terrorist groups by the American government,... more... - Sean McBride

Noah: notice to whom David Cooper directs his hostility: it's not Hamas; it's America and the UK: "Thank G-d we have our prophecies to guide us and G-d's protection to keep Israel strong while the rest of the world falls apart. Get America and the U.K. out of Israel so we can stand strong without any fear of our enemies and be the light unto the nations that we were chosen to be." By... more... - Sean McBride

Apropos the CIA forecast, just published today: "Livni: Israelis desperate to leave country" http://www.ynetnews.com/article... "Opposition chairman says hundreds of thousands of Israelis searching or ways to move abroad in light of grim political situation in country, government's lack of vision" ... ""I see the despair of many Israelis. Hundreds of thousands see... more... - Sean McBride

Sean McBride labeling people as Kahanists is libel and defamation! If you have proof, then show it. If you do not, do not harass people and organization.by hiding behind Web anonymity and terrorizing people! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Which organization are you referring to? - Sean McBride

Igor just turned down five opportunities to explain which organization was unfairly accused of being a Kahanist group. Instead, he tried to change the subject by talking about the IRA (Irish nationalism is a non-existent topic on Friendfeed and on the Internet in general). The question is still on the table for Igor (or Noah, ianf or David Cooper): which organization was unfairly accused of being a Kahanist group? - Sean McBride

Sean, see you on Wikipedia! Try not to give yourself too many Anti-Semitic awards! ADL will come looking for you! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- you just issued another threat, among dozens of such documented threats, and you still didn't mention which organization you think was unfairly accused of Kahanism. To which organization were you referring? - Sean McBride

Threats? What threats? I am just a Troll surfing on friendfeed! You the one libeling and and accusing people and organizations! I hope ADL looking into your web activities. I am sure American government does not fancy them either! And if you have a question about anyone, talk to them. Why you asking me? - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor -- which organization was libeled? You still haven't mentioned it. I didn't mention any organization. To which organization are you referring? Your repeated invocations of Mossad certainly qualify as threats in the eyes of most objective observers -- whom do you think you are kidding? - Sean McBride

Traits, features and policies often associated with Kahanism: anti-Arab bigotry, anti-black bigotry, anti-Christian bigotry, anti-European bigotry, anti-Muslim bigotry, assassinations, bombings, charges of anti-Semitism, deportation ("transfer") of Palestinians, Greater Israel, group violence, illegal spying and espionage, malicious hacking, personal attacks, pro-Israel militancy,... more... - Sean McBride

Wow & whoa! - Roney Smith

Here is the Wikipedia entry on Kahanism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Sean McBride

Right Sean McBride, Thanks for reverting my Gilad Shalit Tweet4Shalit edit on Wikipedia. You are such a Human Rights activist for Islamic Terrorist organization Hamas! You must be very proud of yourself! Stick some more Keywords into your semantic search! You going to delete this also Sean Hoyland? Go complain to a Wikipedia admin! LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Saw who this was from and had to laugh. Why don't you throw in a Sept. 11 conspiracy too! - Spencer

Why not Armageddon as well? The Jews want to blow up the WORLD! LOL - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Igor: I know nothing about your Wikipedia entry on Gilad Shalit, have never heard of Sean Hoyland, detest Muslim fundamentalism (and all forms of religious fundamentalism) and find many of your and Noah's posts to be incoherent and incomprehensible. You still haven't mentioned which organization you think was falsely accused as Kahanist: which is it? - Sean McBride

Spencer -- didn't you buy into all the bogus conspiracy theories foisted by neoconservatives on naive Bush/Cheney supporters (for instance, the claim that Saddam was behind 9/11 and that al-Qaeda was behind the 9/11 anthrax attacks)? Or was that a different Spencer? - Sean McBride

Note on how I moderate comments on my posts: substantive comments are welcome from everyone, and especially from those with views that oppose my own. Non-substantive or abusive comments I will often delete, because they derail substantive discussion. The name of the game here is to improve mutual understanding of issues. - Sean McBride

Sean, WTF why did you bring MY name into this? - David C. Cooper

Oh, I see it now. So, Sean you agree with American financial support of Muslim terrorist organizations Fatah and Hamas? - David C. Cooper

David Cooper -- I strongly oppose American financial or political support for religious fundamentalist groups of all kinds, including Muslim fundamentalist groups. Your assumption is wrong. You give the impression in one of your comments above that you view the United States and Britain as your enemies and as the enemies of Israel. Care to clarify? Here is your statement: "Thank G-d we... more... - Sean McBride

Certainly, I think the financial support of Israel and her enemies by other countries has been the biggest source of instability for that region. The entire middle east would find it's own stability if other nations would stop sending money to Israel and her enemies. BTW, what happened to my original post? I can't find it. - David C. Cooper

Incidentally, if you don't think Israel should be a Jewish state, why is it okay for 22 nations in that same region to only allow Muslim citizens? All of those countries are much larger than Israel yet you don't seem to worry or care that they discriminate against non-Muslims not only as citizens but even as visitors. - David C. Cooper

Furthermore, why is it okay for those 22 nations to sponsor the pseudo nation of "palestine" as a proxy in their fight against the return of the relatively tiny Israelite homeland to Her people? - David C. Cooper

David -- to find your original post open http://friendfeed.com/mideast... and then do a full text search on the page for "G-d" -- it's still there. - Sean McBride

David -- few people object to Israel being a Jewish state (I don't), but they expect Israel to be a Jewish state in the same way that France is a French state -- as a state of all its citizens, from all ethnic and religious backgrounds, as a modern Western democratic state. If Israel seeks to become a Jewish state in a narrow ethnic and religious sense, it will suffer the same fate as... more... - Sean McBride

David -- actually, the idea of the United States and Europe disengaging completely from both sides in the Israeli/Arab-Muslim conflict has a certain appeal. - Sean McBride

David -- does one deduce correctly from your original statement the following? 1. Religion and politics are seamlessly enwoven for you. 2. God is on the side of Israel vs. the nations and the rest of the world (including the United States and UK). 3. Israelis are the chosen people and a light unto the nations. 4. Israel is in great shape, thanks to God, but the rest of the world is falling apart. 5. You have many ethnic and religious enemies. - Sean McBride

Sean, so where is the outcry against the narrow ethnic and religious governments of the 22 Muslim nations that surround and make war against the Israelite nation and the western non-Muslim world? If western democratic society is such a champion of freedom and liberty why would they focus on Israel, where people of all ethnicities and religions are welcome while they ignore the rest of the middle east where only Muslims are allowed to tread? - David C. Cooper

David -- Israel is asking Americans and Europeans to make enormous sacrifices for Israelis on the supposed moral grounds that Israel is a modern Western democratic state and a member in good standing in the Western democratic community. If in fact Israel morphs into a Jewish version of apartheid white South Africa, it is going to be impossible to justify that support. Israel will go its... more... - Sean McBride

1. For the children of Israel G-d gave us the form of government under which we are to thrive, any other form is a poor substitute. 2. G-d is on the side of his entire creation which is why he gave his Torah to the children of Israel. The fact that only the children of Israel were willing and able to accept his word at Mount Sinai does not change His love for the people of all nations.... more... - David C. Cooper

What "sacrifices" does Israel ask of any other nation? It seems the other nations are asking Israel to make all of the sacrifices. Why should Jews not be allowed to build on their own land? Why should Israel be told that they must allow their enemies to settle in Israel but not allow a Jew to build a tree house? Realpolitik does not justify the hypocrisy. - David C. Cooper

the state with the most money in U.S. aid since 1993 is Palestine. that argument of Israel getting the most funding is false. Egypt gets similar numbers to Israel. further the funding of Israel if compared to the numbers involved in US military expenses would be around a penny to a dollar. the US military gets more back with support to Israel then from their own military. the moment... more... - Noah David Simon

BS - Stephan Romeo

ahem... and when labor said something similar in the 90s when Netanyahu's government had their first run, the statistics of the Jewish population ratio to Muslims improved. not to mention that Bibi was a lot more conservative then. I'm not very worried about Livni's opinions. Livni wanted badly to be a proxy to Jewish ethnic cleansing. ghetto Jew mentality. JudenRatts are all over the place... right Myrna? - Noah David Simon

David -- I respect your right to hold your religious beliefs, but others are under no obligation to share those beliefs. They may even find them to be irritating and unpalatable, in the same way you no doubt find many Christian and Muslim beliefs to be irritating and unpalatable (have you accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior yet? :)). To make matters worse, you are bundling... more... - Sean McBride

Noah -- the abusive and demonizing language that you and many others are using against Livni -- "Jewish ethnic cleansing, ghetto Jew mentality, JudenRatts" -- is one of several reasons why many political analysts think that Israel's political future is problematic. You can't construct a viable and stable civil society on this kind of fanaticism. And it is disturbing and scary to see... more... - Sean McBride

Most Friendfeed users, and most Americans, are not aggressive, abrasive, abusive and demanding about their ethnic and religious interests. If they were, American society would be reduced to violent chaos, to a state of permanent civil war and internecine savagery -- much like parts of the Mideast. - Sean McBride

Sean, if that's true then why is Israel, where all people of all religions and ethnicities are welcomed to worship in the Holy Land, demonized while all of the neighboring muslim apartheid states are either ignored or excused for their "ethno-religious" nationalism? - David C. Cooper

Sean, your claim that "most" Americans are not aggressive, abrasive, abusive and demanding is laughable! All over the world Americans are accused of exactly that kind of behavior especially when it comes to their ethnic and religious interests. There is a special interest group active in American politics for every religious and ethnic concern imaginable. - David C. Cooper

I have to agree though, that the continued existence of Israel defies all logic. Thank G-d, considering the number of enemies that surround her it is a miracle that she survives to this day. - David C. Cooper

David -- an example: how many op-ed articles have been published by Irish nationalists in The New York Times or The Washington Post during the last decade? How many by Jewish nationalists and pro-Israel activists? This is countable in a precise way with standard content analysis, but I am guessing that the ratio must be at least 100 to 1 in terms of Jewish vs. Irish nationalists. What... more... - Sean McBride

What scares me is how far anti-Semites have come in the last 100 years. They're smart enough now to realize out and out hatred and bigotry will shut them down quickly, so they've shifted over to "discussions" in the guise of rational discourse. When in fact the message remains the same: Jews = bad. - Noah Belson

Sean, what does the ratio of Israel based op-ed pieces in the NYTimes compared to Ireland based op-ed pieces have to do with this discussion? Are you surprised that there is more discussion about the Holy Land than there is about Ireland? Can't you answer my first question? - David C. Cooper

Noah Belson -- the entire world (and the American government especially) strongly opposes Israeli settlements, Israeli agitation to start a war with Iran, and the presence of a flagrant racist, Avigdor Lieberman, at the highest levels of the Israeli government. Are you basically accusing the entire world of being antisemitic because of its opposition to Likud policies and religious... more... - Sean McBride

David -- the fact that pro-Israel activists and militants are highly conspicous in contemporary American culture, and are pushing a narrow ethno-religious nationalist agenda in ways that are often extremely abusive towards their fellow Americans (see, for instance, Pamela Geller's posts on Barack Obama), couldn't be more relevant to this discussion: Israel and the Israel lobby are... more... - Sean McBride

Noah David Simon just called Robert Scoble a "rat" -- comment deleted. - Sean McBride

David: the issue is not whether all ethnicities and religions are permitted to worship in "the Holy Land" (what a misnomer). The issue is whether all ethnicities and religions in Israel are treated with equality in their ability to acquire wealth, power and influence in Israel, and whether their religions enjoy equal status under a civic state (not an ethnic nationalist state with strong theocratic trappings). - Sean McBride

Instead of addressing the point that every nation in the world (including the American government) opposes the current Israeli government and Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, Noah Belson invoked the Nazi smear, with no substantive content. (Comment deleted. Try again.) - Sean McBride

Sean, if you can speak for the entire world, I think I can make logical conclusions based on your previous comments. This isn't about Israel, this is about angry, hateful people seeing their moment and trying to use Israel to push the door open a little bit wider. This sort of thing brings bigots out of their hidey holes and gives them just a little more courage, which for my money is a very dangerous thing. - Noah Belson

Noah -- name a single government in the world which supports Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. The American government and all European governments strongly oppose those settlements, and Israel is in fact on a collision course with the entire world. Are you accusing everyone who opposes the settlements (including a majority of American Jews) of being antisemites? Are you... more... - Sean McBride

Reminder: the comments in my feed should be civil, polite, well-informed, sensible and fact-based. Comments with vague personal attacks and verbal abuse will be deleted. Stay on point and be substantive. Others are free to edit their feeds any way that suits them. As usual, I am always intensely interested in strong opposing arguments that are well-grounded in reality. - Sean McBride

Sean, you said: "The issue is whether all ethnicities and religions in Israel are treated with equality in their ability to acquire wealth, power and influence in Israel" Then, why is this not the issue regarding the enemies of the West who surround Israel? The double standard is hypocritical. - David C. Cooper

David -- why should the West go out of its way to get involved in self-destructive and trillion-dollar wars in defense of political ideologies and systems that are in direct contradiction to its most hallowed values? Did the West lift a finger to defend white South Africa? Why do you think it is that both the Bush and Obama administrations have strongly opposed a military attack on... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, I've already suggested that the west should divest itself from financially supporting either side in this argument. I don't agree that Israel is a contradiction to western values. On the contrary, western values are a direct result of the values of the children of Israel. - David C. Cooper

David: core modern Western democratic values: separation of church and state; equal treatment of and status for all ethnicities and religious groups. Ethnic nationalist and theocratic states are radically incompatible with those values, and are out of step with the modern world. That is why the West abandoned white South Africa and let it sink like a stone. (This is why I also strongly... more... - Sean McBride

David -- I agree with you that Jewish values have played an enormously important role in creating the modern Western democratic world. But the Jewish tradition has evolved markedly over millennia -- it is not static. Most Jews are not biblical literalists, and many brilliant Jews have been in the vanguard in creating the modern world and its best institutions. (The ability of Jewish civilization and the Jewish tradition to evolve, adapt and remake itself is probably its greatest strength.) - Sean McBride

That last part must keep you up at night, huh Sean. Incidentally, you better delete my comments and block me now- something tells me you're not gonna like me. :) - Noah Belson

hmm - ALPER DURUKAN

Noah Belson -- I may like you if you manage to say something fresh and original about the dozens of ideas and facts that appear in the preceding comments in this thread, and show a Jewish ability to wrestle with difficult issues based on an inquiring open mind and a scholarly attention to details. So far I haven't seen much of that. If I want a goyishe kop, I'll torture myself with Rush... more... - Sean McBride

"UN rights chief slams Israel over Gaza violations" http://www.reuters.com/article... "Pillay said rights violations included arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment, extrajudicial execution, forced eviction and home demolition, settlement expansion and related violence and restrictions on freedom of movement and expression. "While these violations are of... more... - Sean McBride

White South Africa took an arrogant, dismissive and defiant attitude towards critiques of its behavior from the international community, and the rest, as they say, is history. They lost. As a rule, it is not in one's self-interest to get on the wrong side of the overwhelming mass of world opinion. Not smart. - Sean McBride

More from the Pillay report: "Pillay's recommendations included the following: -- Allegations of violations of humanitarian law and human rights during the Gaza war should be investigated by independent bodies, and victims should have the right to reparations. -- Israel should tackle impunity for violations, and curb its use of the military justice system, which does not meet... more... - Sean McBride

Noah Belson just departed in an inky cloud of emotional personal attacks (comment deleted), while failing to address a single substantive issue in this thread. Which raises an important point: if pro-Israel activists are unable to defend their views in a rational way in public forums around the world, what future does Israel have? The CIA report may be sage and prophetic indeed.... more... - Sean McBride

Two more abusive and content-free comments deleted, one by Noah Belson and one by Igor. They can't get on point or address substance. If they manage to make rational policy points that are free of personal attacks or verbal abuse, I'll let the comments stand and answer them. But their track record isn't promising. (This isn't a free speech issue, by the way. They are free to say... more... - Sean McBride

So this is indeed a free speech issue, then. Free speech isn't only about being free regarding the substance of your speech: who makes the call about what is form and what is substance? By making that call, you necessarily act as a censor, you see? Still, there's nothing wrong with admitting you will limit one's free speech to a certain form or mode of expression. - Rubin Sfadj

Rubin -- every time we choose a publication to read, we are making selections based on the editorial judgment and reputation of the publisher. Feeds are basically publications. The New York Times is not Fox News and Fox News is not the New York Times. They exercise their right of free speech to control their respective information streams. I have noticed through the years that personal... more... - Sean McBride

This thread is still wide open to anyone who wants to make civil and sensible comments in opposition to the speculation that Israel is on a self-destructive path that closely resembles that of apartheid white South Africa. There are many items in the thread that still haven't been addressed or rebutted. This is a big and complex subject - Sean McBride

"On Agha and Malley" (Stephen M. Walt) http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts... "The most significant lines in the entire essay were the last two, where they write "the heart of the matter is not necessarily how to define a state of Palestine. It is, in a sense it always has been, how to define the state of Israel." Again, they didn't explain what they meant by... more... - Sean McBride

Walt continued: "Or will Israel continue to pursue the dream of Greater Israel, increasingly fueled by ethno-religious claims and the growing political power of religious extremists? If so, then it will become an apartheid state and will eventually face a Palestinian struggle for democratic rights. Again: what sort of state will it become? Needless to say, these different visions will... more... - Sean McBride

Geoffrey Wheatcroft: "If there is a ‘tragedy of Zionism’ it is surely this. Without wanting to or even realising what was happening, the Jewish state has found itself on the wrong side of a much greater divide than the mere dispute between Jew and Arab. The reason for the global obsession with the Holy Land is that it has become a crucible, an epitome, a distilled version of a ‘clash of... more... - Sean McBride

http://mediaanalysiscritical.b... here are photographs of Jews in 1948 Judea that were thrown out of their homes when they had been there for millenniums. Are these the "occupiers" you speak of? the same "occupiers" of Germany just a few years before. the people kicking them out of Judea were aligned with those performing Christal... more... - Noah David Simon

McBride - do you not know the meaning of "Apartheid"? - JIDF

Noah -- are you arguing, then, that Israel should continue to build Jewish settlements in the occupied territories over the adamant opposition of every government in the world, including the American government? And should those settlements be for Jews only, not for members of all ethnic and religious backgrounds, including Christians, Muslims, Arabs, Buddhists, Chinese, etc? How do you see this narrative unfolding? - Sean McBride

OMG you must break the all time record for the longest running, in time span, for your threads JULY 15!!!!!!, >> *whispers* (maybe use disable comments?) - sofarsoShawn

Noah: regarding messianism: let me be clear that my critique of messianism is directed at all of its manifestations, in all cultures from all ethnic groups and religions, and including its secular expressions (Marxism, for instance, was a messianic movement.) Messianism, because it is based on onanistic fantasies, self-hypnosis, cultism and emotional hysteria, almost always leads to... more... - Sean McBride

McBride - Are you aware that the Fatah Constitution and Hamas Charter call for the complete destruction of Israel? That said, Israel SHOULD continue to expand, so as to deter their enemies' determination to destroy them. - JIDF

sofarsoShawn -- some topics generate a great deal of conversation because they have major strategic implications, even world historical implications -- this is one of those topics. The death of the newspaper industry and the American auto industry are others. The health care debate is another. I leave the comments open because I am curious to see if any new interesting ideas emerge. (By... more... - Sean McBride

JIDF -- most Americans, and all modern secular democracies, have placed their chips on a core idea: all ethnic and religious groups can live together in productive harmony, with equal rights and opportunities. If you want to go down the messianic ethno-religious nationalist path, be my guest -- but you will have to live with the consequences. A large majority of Jews would probably... more... - Sean McBride

JIDF: regarding apartheid: article(Gideon Levy; Twilight Zone / 'Worse than apartheid'; Haaretz; July 7, 2008 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen...) Human rights activists with direct experience of apartheid white South Africa characterized conditions in Israel as being WORSE than in South Africa: "I thought they would feel right at home in the alleys of Balata refugee camp,... more... - Sean McBride

Your first response to me makes no sense. Your second source relies upon an extreme leftist source, looking to push a political agenda. Try Myths vs. FACTS: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource... - JIDF

like hell it will. "CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years" read all about it. - nivcalderon

sofarsoShawn got me thinking: rank issues by strategic importance (by their impact on the world at large, on world history and on human civilization). Are there objective and scientific ways to achieve these rankings? Algorithms? Software tools? In any case, the world historical forces swirling around the vortex of Israel and the Mideast in general are immense. That region could be the graveyard of the human race. - Sean McBride

JIDF -- can you answer the specific charges in the Haaretz article in a specific way? They are coming from South African leaders who were the victims of apartheid -- they know the subject of apartheid up close and personal, much more intimately than we do. They are claiming that conditions in Israel are worse than in apartheid white South Africa. - Sean McBride

JIDF -- my first response to you makes a great deal of sense -- it is written in clear English prose. I pointed out to you that modern Western democracies prize ethnic and religious equality and cooperation, and that a large majority of Jews share those values. Messianic ethno-religious nationalist states are in radical conflict with the contemporary world. - Sean McBride

People already did, in the talkback section of the article. You're citing an anti-Israel activist intent on smearing the Jewish state. Lots of people do that. Your first response made no sense within the context of my comment, as I wasn't talking about any of that. Apparently you like to read your own words. That said, what's your point in all this? Are you looking forward to the... more... - JIDF

JIDF -- one point at a time: how do you rebut, in your own words and in a specific way, the charges made by South Africans, other than calling them "leftists"? Leftists opposed the apartheid white South African regime, they predicted its collapse, and they were right. The flow of world history is not on the side of ethnic nationalists and racists. Ehud Olmert, the former Israeli prime... more... - Sean McBride

Until you answer MY questions, I won't bother answering your tangents. - JIDF

Are you or are you not for the destruction of Israel? - JIDF

JIDF -- you don't seem to understand Friendfeed culture -- you play by the rules of the owner of the thread, which, in this case, is yours truly. But I will humor you for one instance: obviously I do not support the destruction of Israel. But I do support the reform of Israeli politics that will bring it into full alignment with modern Western democratic values and spare it the... more... - Sean McBride

Now your turn: do you support full equality for all ethnic and religious groups in Israel, both in law and in practice, and the separation of synagogue and state? And aren't "Jewish settlements" *by definition* a discriminatory enterprise when subsidized and endorsed by the state? Does the American government subsidize and endorse Anglo-Christian settlements? - Sean McBride

you claim that Israel is not "in full alignment' with Western democratic values. Please explain why. And I think it's vain of you to suggest that your POV is shared by every govt. on the planet. Just b/c you're reading some book on Messianic ideology, it does not mean everyone who disagrees with you is drawn into it. Israel is the Jewish State and I support it as such. I do not support... more... - JIDF

JIDF -- I answered your question directly and fully. Now you answer mine: do you support full equality for all ethnic and religious groups in Israel, both in law and in fact? That criterion is the core definition for modern Western democracies -- they are trans-ethnic, trans-religious and universalist in outlook, values and practice. - Sean McBride

JIDF: I just quickly scanned your recent Friendfeed feed and immediately noticed this: "JIDF: certainly there's a Jewess out there w/ an appreciation of both radiohead & rav kahane for whom i could dedicate the beatles' "for you blue"" Are you a supporter of Meir Kahane? Kahanist groups are officially designated as terrorist groups by the American government. Also: "Jewess"? Questionable choice of words, at best. - Sean McBride

JIDF -- your thoughts, like those of Igor and Noah David Simon, are a great confused jumble -- and that is consistent with messianic psychology and the messianic mindset, which is much more focused on concocting elaborate rationalizations than in conducting honest intellectual investigations. With regard to the point of view of nations all around the world towards Israeli settlements: I... more... - Sean McBride

You bore me with your "messianic" allegations and your tone is condescending. Moving along.. - JIDF

JIDF -- you want to end the discussion already? I thought we were just beginning. What elements of Meir Kahane's thinking have inspired your enthusiasm? Kahane helped trigger the Baruch Goldstein massacre and Yigal Amir's assassination of Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin. The Israeli government itself considers Kahanism and Kahanists to be verboten -- beyond the pale -- as does the American government. - Sean McBride

Kahane noticed Jews were being attacked in the streets of NYC and created the JDL to do something about it. I notice that Jews (and Israel) are being attacked online, and I did something about it. - JIDF

@sean it's amazing how a debate can suddenly implode and have the participents retract from conversation the moment a person no longer has anything to hide behind. Personally, I don't get how attacks by opposing forces are seen as unwarrented hate while state sponsored subjigation, abuse and theft of said population is perfectly fine. Is there not a critical thought at play asking a... more... - alphaxion

If you view Hamas/Fatah as "freedom fighters" your moral compass is off. - JIDF

This is, without a doubt, bullshit. First of all, in terms of your comparison to Apartheid, I'd direct you to here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource... | Second, this sort of thing is based on a disconnect for the actual players involved. If you ever spent time in any Jewish community in America, there is huge support for Israel within them. Not everyone may agree with all the actions of Israel, but the support for Israel's existence within the US is huge. - Aram Zucker-Scharff

Oh, and I do support full equality for all ethnic and religious groups in Israel, both in law and in fact, providing they can pledge an oath of allegiance to the State of Israel. If they do anything to undermine the security of Israel, or if show any support for its destruction whatsoever, all bets are off. - JIDF

If you have ever been to Israel, you'd see that the people there, whatever you may think of their politics, ideals, religion, whatever, are perhaps the most determined people on the planet. The Israelis have put their lives on the line /every day/ to make a place for themselves in Israel. They haven't stopped before now and they won't stop in the future. Even if you don't like Israel, if you went there, and saw for yourself, you'd realize that no one there will simply give up. - Aram Zucker-Scharff

I took Sean up on his advice to use this great thing called "Google" (who knew?) and it's very interesting to see where this "news" (ie. propaganda) comes from and who is pushing it: http://www.google.com/search... - JIDF

@jidf did you not read what I said, let me quote it "Just remember, because of the actions of the IDF, the likes of Hamas are seen as freedom fighters to those who can no longer see that BOTH the israeli state AND the palestinian forces are fundamental cocks that don't care how many people suffer in their ceaseless bickering." I did not say this was my view, as you can pretty much get... more... - alphaxion

@alphaxion - you blame the IDF for Islamic terrorism. What is wrong with you? - JIDF

@aram support for its existence and reaction to its policies and actions are two different things. You can still support the right for israel to exist whilst criticising the actions of its government. The kinda comment you made sounds like the drivel you get from those who think to speak out against your government is to wish for it to be destroyed. No, many of us just want them to stop murdering and stealing land and resources from the palestinians. - alphaxion

JIDF -- questions about the viability of Israel have been prominently raised by two Israeli political leaders, Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni, and recently by a major American Jewish author, Rich Cohen. The whole world is wondering how any nation which resembles apartheid white South Africa can survive in the midst of overwhelming global opposition to its core beliefs and policies. - Sean McBride

@alphaxion that was a complete misread of what I said. I didn't say that I want to kill people or quash other opinions. I just said that, as a whole, on average, Israelis are a very determined people and they are not, as a whole, going to leave. The fact that you misread totalitarianism into the word determination scares the shit out of me. - Aram Zucker-Scharff

@jidf I blame BOTH for the endless cycle of hate and suffering. IDF bulldozes a settlement. Palestinians are killed and many are twisted by grief and suffering. Palestinians lash out and kill a number of Israelis. Those same Israelis are then twisted by their grief, IDF lashes back. Ad nausium. And by the way, I know people that live in Israel. The stories I hear from them (and this... more... - alphaxion

Fair warning to JIDF and NDS: if you want to post here, stay on substantive points and be civil. - Sean McBride

@aram.. sorry, I didn't notice the bit at the end that said "Not everyone may agree with all the actions of Israel, but the support for Israel's existence within the US is huge." which is also the point I said in my comment to you. Sorry if what I said there came off wrong. - alphaxion

@alphaxion It happens, thanks. - Aram Zucker-Scharff

JIDF -- are you aware that the JDL and all Kahanist groups are officially designated as terrorist groups by the American government? Are you familiar with the histories of Irv Rubin and Earl Krugel? And even the Israeli government classified Kahane as a racist. When you say you admire Meir Kahane, and create a group which is clearly modeled on the JDL, you are placing yourself at a particular location on the political spectrum. - Sean McBride

JIDF -- do you endorse vigilantism, malicious hacking, harassment, bombings, terrorism, etc.? Why do you think it is that the American government has zero tolerance for Kahanist groups and methods? Why would any American in his or right mind link her or her political activities to Meir Kahane, given the associations to officially designated terrorist groups? - Sean McBride

may I also point out that I would like the Palestinian forces to stop murdering, beating and abducting Israelis. But I'm not nieve to think that it will happen under duress. Both sides need to stop attacking each other - the empty ceasefires offered up by the Israeli government are simply not ceasefires. If they really want peace they'll go for a real ceasefire and do a proper deal such... more... - alphaxion

Still haven't seen an answer to this question: are Jewish settlements for Jews only or for members of all ethnic and religious groups? Nor have we seen acknowledgment from JDIF and NDS that every government in the world strongly opposes Jewish settlements in the occupied terrorities. - Sean McBride

@Sean While I don't support the JDL and its violent actions, the organization does extend beyond killing people. Remember, at one point the US gov't said much the same things about the Black Panthers. Beyond that, while I don't support violent actions, when a group faces people who call for its extermination and have to fear lynchings from groups like the American Nazis, the formation... more... - Aram Zucker-Scharff

I see many parallels between this and the troubles in Northern Ireland - two groups of people with a history of violence against each other. Even if the UK had gone against the wishes of the Northern Irish people and given the land back, there would still be fighting. Which is why the whole situation makes me feel sorry for the innocents trapped inbetween, just trying to live their lives. - alphaxion

Aram -- how much understanding did the American government offer to Irv Rubin and Earl Krugel? And how sensitive is the matter of Mideast terrorism currently when the American president is being besieged with terrorist threats on a daily basis, and considering that Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a Kahanist? - Sean McBride

@Sean, I didn't say I approved, I said I can understand how such a group can come about. You can't consider things in a vacuum. - Aram Zucker-Scharff

On the matter of Kahanism, anything but the strongest possible condemnation is entirely unacceptable. There is a clear track record here, and a climate of current threats. - Sean McBride

alphaxion -- two major differences between the Irish and Israeli situations: 1. the Irish situation is not likely to cause a global financial meltdown or worse (like the use of WMDs). 2. One rarely sees Irish Americans introducing Irish nationalism into mainstream American politics in a contentious way. Irish Americans on the whole keep a low profile on foreign ethnic nationalist issues -- there is no Irish AIPAC. - Sean McBride

I wasn't talking about Kahanism, just the formation of the JDL and the reasoning behind it. (By the way The National Consortium for the Study of Terror and Responses to Terrorism says "the JDL does not currently engage in terrorist actions.") Once again, I'm just saying that there is a reason behind its formation. - Aram Zucker-Scharff

Aram -- all terrorist groups are motivated by a rationale, right? The rationale they've constructed for themselves doesn't excuse them. - Sean McBride

All ethnic and religious terrorist groups are motivated by the same rationale -- the violent and criminal pursuit of their self-interest and often crackpot messianic fantasies. - Sean McBride

I am off to the beach to enjoy a spectacular summer afternoon, and will reenable comments when I return. - Sean McBride

While enjoying the afternoon at one of the most beautiful beaches in America in perfect weather, I was struck by the pure joy of witnessing a multitude of ethnic and religious groups mingling and sharing the same blissful space in peace and happiness, without a hint of conflict, and it struck me that this was a resonant image of the ideals of modern secular democracies. One finds the... more... - Sean McBride

Looking at an article published in an Iranian media outlet in no way constitutes support for the media outlet or for Iran -- on the contrary, I have been a harsh critic of Iran and Iranian theocracy. If you consult my Mideast News group https://friendfeed.com/mideast..., you will notice that most of my sources are Israeli and Jewish, including many right-wing Israeli and Jewish... more... - Sean McBride

Doing some browsing on the issue of apartheid, and this stuck me as a piece of high-quality and nuanced analysis: article(Leila Farsakh; Israel: an apartheid state?; Le Monde diplomatique; November 2003; http://mondediplo.com/2003...). Quote: "Despite their initial differences, apartheid South Africa and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have become similar since 1993. Will... more... - Sean McBride

NDS -- rewrite your last post without all the angry and overheated invective, add clean paragraph breaks, post it to your blog with a pointer here, and I'll read it carefully and respond. As a rule my mind automatically filters out writing full of fuming and self-righteous aggression. You should have noticed by now that all the even-tempered comments here stand undeleted, regardless of their point of view. - Sean McBride

you never elaborate your issues. analysis requires specifics. you aren't even specific about your accusation of "fuming and self-righteous aggression" - Noah David Simon

Noah -- if you review this thread, you will see that I have discussed dozens of specifics, most of which you flew right by without response. The more emotional the topic (and this is perhaps the most emotional topic in the world), the greater the need to lower the emotional volume to near zero to have a useful discussion. See David Cooper's comments for examples of how to make clear,... more... - Sean McBride

Sean, according to the CIA's 18th and 19th century predessors, theoretically Israel shouldn't exist at all. Just goes to show an intelligence agency assessment can be wrong. - George Hall (Australia)

CIA report http://friendfeed.com/igorthe... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

George Hall -- what are your thoughts on the future of ethnic nationalist and ethno-religious nationalist states in general? I would no more bet on them than I would bet on Communist states, the newspaper industry or cars manufactured by General Motors. (Are you an Australian, by the way?) What I *would* bet on are catastrophic developments in the Mideast, a region which seems to be firmly under the control of Abrahamic apocalyptic memes among all parties concerned. - Sean McBride

Browsing around, I just noticed that Israpundit, a right-wing pro-Israel site, posted the CIA report story on March 15, 2009 http://www.israpundit.com/2008.... It was widely reposted all over the Internet. (Presumably, Israpundit is not an Iranian propaganda outlet. :)) Many people, and some Israelis in particular, are curious to know what the report on the report is all about and... more... - Sean McBride

I just browsed the latest comments here -- apparently all from JIDF members (Igor's "Mossad" and Kahanist associates), and realized that any opportunity for a rational discussion and debate in this thread has evaporated. I asked George Hall a direct question about the future of ethnic and ethno-religious nationalism, and was treated to a biblical disquistion from a true believer -- not... more... - Sean McBride

JIDF

RT @igorthetroll2: @jidf You should visit Andalucia! Nice girls! http://www.igorthetroll.com/blog... /// Good story, Igor -

August 16 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Igor The Troll יִצְחָק liked this

Thanks, David! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

8 more comments

the irony is that @IgorTheTroll2 is a great writer. if he weren't such a troll he would be considered a genius - Noah David Simon

I am being interrogated by Wikipedia Gestapo http://tinyurl.com/lyqfme - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Noah, so U think I am The BEST TROLL? http://friendfeed.com/igorthe... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

RT @igorthetroll2 I am being interrogated by Wikipedia Gestapo http://tinyurl.com/lyqfme - - JIDF

Here is the Wikipedia Gestapo gathering to discuss my BAN http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

The Gestapo leader, who I believe is a Wikimedia foundation Lawyer warned me NOT to edit Jewish article! - Antisemitism! Prior to my unblock, I have no history of editing Jewish articles! Why all of the sudden as an Israeli, I am not allowed to edit Jewish articles? http://i30.tinypic.com/14avtat... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

stop using the term "gestapo" please - damages your case - send me the diff, not the screencap - let me have a look - JIDF

ok! - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Please take a look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Original diff http://en.wikipedia.org/w... - Igor The Troll יִצְחָק

Noah David Simon

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