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Joe Dunckley › Likes

Cameron Neylon
Twitter, Facebook, and Open Access [hellip] - http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...
Not what you might expect from Angewandte Chemie... - Cameron Neylon
via Anna Croft - Cameron Neylon
See also this discussion: http://friendfeed.com/science... - Martin Fenner
Bosco Ho
You're Just Not that into Science - http://boscoh.com/science...
Hmm, good point. There may even be some Atlantic divide in this. Not necessarily wrt social media, but wrt interest outside one's own field. Moreover, I'd speculate that there also is an age gap: as you get older, you feel confident enough also to look outside of your own field, because you've learned enough so your own field doesn't require all of your capacities any more. - Björn Brembs
Neil Saunders
A welcome addition to BBC News science stories - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2....
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Richard P Grant
I'm the Information architect at http://f1000.com. We're thinking about an API. What we need are specific worked examples of what people might like to do with an f1000 API, to help us to decide what to build first (and to prioritize the development). Please suggest things here, or privately. Thanks.
What do you mean worked examples? In our open URL resolver article page we using the Scopus and the WoS APIs to provide links to similar articles and citing articles. It would be cool to be able to add if the article has been reviewed in f1000. This blog post describes: http://bibwild.wordpress.com/2009... . Is that what you're looking for or? - Christina Pikas
An API should provide all the functionality of the website, in the form of simple HTTP requests that return a data structure (e.g. JSON). I don't know what can be done at the f1000 website but I imagine search by keywords, retrieve by id and so on. I'd suggest you take a look at the FriendFeed API - https://friendfeed.com/api... - as a great example. - Neil Saunders
Thanks guys, this is a great start. The friendfeed one is particularly toothsome. - Richard P Grant
Neil's comment cuts to the core of the issue. Also the comment that I think I made when you started that every view, every possible web page that you serve to the user should have an RSS feed. The two statements amount to the same thing really. Use cases are still helpful obviously but if the philosophy is basically that this is essentially the net enabled version of your database is adopted I think its hard to go wrong. - Cameron Neylon
yeah, that's cool, thanks. We do have RSS on the dev site now: at least for every page that has changing information. - Richard P Grant
Maxine
Stolen e-mails show no conspiracy; better support needed for climate researchers. Nature Editorial (free online) http://www.nature.com/nature...
Language was a little strong for me "...climate-change-denialist fringe..." not so (http://tr.im/Gw5p). Seems based on ideology as is somewhat condescending, e.g. "This paranoid interpretation would be laughable were it not for the fact that obstructionist politicians in the US Senate will probably use it next year as an excuse to stiffen their opposition to the country's much needed climate bill." The real solution is doing this research in the open. - Andrew Lang
Also felt that the "actions more important than words" argument around preventing the IPCC report referring to those two papers is a little disingenuous. Who stopped the block happening? Nor does this address the fact that it isn't just what did happen but what is perceived to have happened as far as the media/public are concerned that is important. Substance and perception are both... more... - Cameron Neylon
Graham Steel
Why machine-readable data should matter to you - http://blogs.openaccesscentral.com/blogs...
PQ - "One of the things we do here at PhysMath Central (and our sister companies BioMed and Chemistry Central) which not all publishers do is format our full-text articles in freely-available XML and MathML. From a production point of view it makes sense as we can generate html and pdf versions of the article from the same source, but beyond that there are a plethora of possibilities that anyone could exploit due to their machine-readability. However it seems that machine-readable documents have yet to find an enthusiastic audience beyond a few data-miniing specialists." - Graham Steel
Hadn't seen this post before. Lovez the Slideshare http://www.slideshare.net/dmje... from Mike Ellis. Also See Mike's post "Pushing MRD out from under the geek rock" http://electronicmuseum.org.uk/2009... - Graham Steel
Mike and Chris are both folks fighting the good fight (see also http://blog.openwetware.org/science... for where I first came across Mike) - Cameron Neylon
Thanks for that, Cameron. - Graham Steel
Cameron Neylon
Nice simple starting point. Philosophy here is to make it easy for the user to connect up objects that already exist somewhere on the web when they write up a lab report. - Cameron Neylon
I am particularly interesting in the 'publish-in-database-x' features... someone mumbling ChemPedia? - Egon Willighagen
My thinking at the moment is limited to some sort of centralised data store just so that we can keep things simple in terms of building an exemplar. So objects get pushed via REST to the store and then the store generates RSS feeds. Theory being that in the longer term one can build "plugins" for any service that has a REST deposition system and generates a suitable RSS/Atom feed. - Cameron Neylon
Very interesting. - Jill O'Neill
incidentally the other half of this is something that looks like DropBox on scientific steroids. Files dropped into a directory get posted as blobs to the store with whatever metadata can possibly be captured - as far as possible with no user intervention. - Cameron Neylon
Jonathan Eisen
Is Peer Review Broken? - Genome Technology article on some issues w/ peer review - http://www.genomeweb.com/peer-re...
Bosco Ho
The bioinformatic-journal/software hydrid - http://boscoh.com/protein...
Yes, yes. Very much like. - Neil Saunders
Bosco, this is a superb idea. Along with starting up a new journal/software hybrid, it will be great if existing journals insist users to submit source code, executable or VM of a bioinformatics software / database / server to a centralized repository like 'biohub.org'. - Khader Shameer
This is a good idea. - Michael Barton
While not linked to an actual repository (but rather, provides a snapshot of the s/w and data for the article), Journal of Statistical Software, does pretty much this - Rajarshi Guha
I would take this further and the article text remains in the revision repo. The reviewers are sent to the article, not the other way around and it can be forked in just the same way the software can - Frank from iPhone
@Frank, this makes sense, since otherwise the paper would be static and refer to old versions. But then this assumes that as the s/w is updated, so is the paper - Rajarshi Guha
@Rajarshi not neccessarily the paper should state which version/revision it refers to. It does not have to keep up with the sw. That is what documentation is for :) - Frank from iPhone
me likey too - Deepak Singh
The more I think about it, the more I think some big-wig bioinformaticians should do a deal with Google Code to edit a journal. That might even align with Google Scholar. - Bosco Ho
@Frank, in that case, why bother with a VCS? Why not just put a tarball with the source code for the version that goes with the paper? - Rajarshi Guha
Great idea, but I can't see it working for data sets. Yes data sets evolve and should track provenance somehow, but having been in and around standards groups for some time now, this is an impossible task for a publishing group to take care of, especially considering the nature of big-data bioinformatics. Plus if goes against best practices for software source control (use factories, don't store your database...) - delagoya
There are some interesting and non-trivial questions around this kind of idea as to what peer review should look like. Should such a journal provide virtualisation environments so that the code can be run? Example data should be a requirement presumably? Are peer reviewers expected to evaluate code "quality". Anyone thoughts on this would be extremely useful...and help guide a project like this into reality. - Cameron Neylon
My answers to Cameron's points: (1) no, (2) yes, sample data would probably be used to run tests which should pass, (3) quality is somewhat subjective - minimum requirement should be that code runs and generates output as expected - but reviewers could certainly suggest code improvement where appropriate. - Neil Saunders
So if the answer to 1) is no, does that mean that you can't necessarily expect referees to actually run the code? Or compile it? Or just that you pick referees appropriately? Or conversely that "refereeing" becomes a process of building up enough positive comments or karma points in the repository...? It seems to me that you want to bring the best of versioning systems and best practice... more... - Cameron Neylon
Referees should certainly be able to run code - I'm just not sure that virtualisation through the web interface is the way to do it. Seems like an additional layer of complexity that might get in the way of making this idea work. - Neil Saunders
@Cameron & Neil: If it could be figured out how to to handle the virtualization (or having remote access to machines), I think that'd be a highly valuable addition to peer review. Easy for me to say (not knowing how to implement it), but I think it's a great goal to strive for. It doesn't seem too crazy to have the journal have a bunch of machines on hand so the authors can remotely upload / install code and referees could then remotely log in to look at and try out code. - Steve Koch
I can't figure out where to jump into this thread. Personally, I think we just need a place to publish locations, i.e. the code is here, data is there and this is the version we used, etc. That must be maintained and being able to maintain that should become part of the funding process. Since funding agencies are the ones who are funding this research they need to include the ability to... more... - Deepak Singh
My feeling is that being able to run the programs somewhere on a server without downloading them is important - but that is very much a user's perspective. I often look at useful things that are made available and just have no clue how to actually make them work. A good range of downloadable executables would probably do the job for me though. Additional question: what are the standards for web services? - Cameron Neylon
Which is why VM's and cloud services are such a big deal for demo's and provenance now. You can package up a VM with the exact stack that you want and make it available, either as a service or a VM you can launch yourself. It's too easy not to do it - Deepak Singh
@Deepak : Cloud + VM is an an interesting combination, but should have an accessible pricing that is affordable to a larger research community - Khader Shameer
I think there should be strict guidelines while reviewing bioinformatics software / database / servers to test the resource. I had a recent experience : a reviewer wrote extensive list of points to reject a server that we developed with out trying what exactly it is doing or to know how does it differs from other existing resources. I strongly support the hybrid journal model, also it... more... - Khader Shameer
Let's talk specifics. VM images are great, but you are tying your release to a particular release of a particular platform. A better approach is to start from a base OS (like a linus distro ISO) and have a set of build instructions for system set up and application building. My favorite of the moment would be Chef. - delagoya
Second, academics love to solve a problem with a novel algorithm and then move on. In fact it is in their best interest to move on after milking a project for all it's worth, publication wise. Maintenance, or even robust testing (couch... Tophat ... cough ... Bowtie .. cough ) is not even on the radar. Frankly I am not so sure it should be. Maintenance requirements may slow the pace of... more... - delagoya
@delagoya, good point. If I have made significant improvements, why update the old paper? better to try for a new paper! - Rajarshi Guha
delagoya, chef's fine too. Find a common medium/mechanism that works for the community. The resources are certainly there. It's a matter of trying things out. As someone I know says, start simple, and iterate - Deepak Singh
Khader, that's where the funding agencies come in. They need to provide mechanisms for sustainable funding here. - Deepak Singh
The nice thing about a hybrid journal is that it might be possible to have new dois/database entries for "significant" updates. Not perhaps just place holding papers as is the case sometimes in the NAR database issue but when something has changed significantly you can get a new paper without needing a new algorithm or service. I like the idea of funding to support "orphan" code and services as well. Make it worth money and people will do it. - Cameron Neylon
Delagoya - as a naive user I disagree. I really don't want to have to build, I want to use in the lowest stress way possible and a hosted VM seems like a good way to enable that - as well as allow for longer term preservation. We may not be able to run linux on future hardware but will probably be able to handle VMs for longer (actually having written that I'm not sure its true - would be interested in more expert perspectives) - Cameron Neylon
I almost missed this discussion. I really like the idea but I wonder how discovery type projects fit in. I mostly use code to look for trends. If anything I might make some predictor to enhance existing data. For these reasons most of what I do is one off scripts around perl and R. Maybe this sort of project does not belong in a bioinformatics journal at all. - Pedro Beltrao
Pedro, great question. Personally, if we included all glue code, small scripts, etc this would be unsustainable and defeat the purpose of peer review as well - Deepak Singh
@Pedro, I don't see a journal/software hybrid as replacing all bioinformatics journals. I think there's a place for journals that discuss pure algorithms and ideas. These would do exploratory type programming. Normal journals service these papers quite well. For me, a hybrid model targets specifically those papers that describe a program that is meant to be used by other people. In that... more... - Bosco Ho
Bosco, you're thinking along the lines of a communications journal aren't you. And then people can go to work on the code if it is on github or something - Deepak Singh
@Deepak. Yep. The disconnect I see is that pragmatically, it's the open-source project that counts. The article in the bioinformatics journal is so that we can get a place-holder to collect citations that contribute to our academic CV. The journal/software hybrid provides the most efficient way to this goal. - Bosco Ho
Very nicely summary of the problem. Really, the whole concept of a journal article about software is stupid. What does an academic article do? Alert people to a new finding/discovery. But in the case of software - well, the software is the finding. And people are "alerted" by finding it on the web, downloading it and using it. As Bosco says, the sole role of an article here is a CV tick - hence the hybrid approach. Non-academic programmers must find all of this very odd. - Neil Saunders
Neil Saunders
How to reject a scientific paper - http://bytesizebio.net/index...
*giggle* - D0r0th34
I like #4. The "pretend to be British" wouldn't work for whoever wrote that -- their examples of "British usage" are terrible. - Bill Hooker
I don't know, Bill. I knew a Mancunian who often used those very phrases. - Mr. Gunn
so are the German phrases :) - Michael Kuhn
Cameron Neylon
Next-gen PhDs fail to find Web 2.0's 'on-switch' - http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story...
Why am I not suprised...? - Cameron Neylon
saw the press release for the original piece of work behind that yesterday here: http://www.rin.ac.uk/our-wor... - Jo Badge
Like as in "I share your...concern? Despair?" - Neil Saunders
Ah I missed that - also interesting in the context of the NIH grants - anyone tracked any more information on those projects? - Cameron Neylon
I don't really despair but assuming that group culture and practice will change because some young people come in isn't suprising. Search happens with a single person, so they will use those tools, but social bookmarking requires groups acting together. This means that you at least need critical mass within the group, or more likely, active encouragement from the top. - Cameron Neylon
Change is happening, But ... very ... slowly. - AJCann
hmm, just skimming the report (from Brisith library) says that librarians need to reconnect with scientists - errr, when were they connected? - Jo Badge
I'll set the librarians on you. - AJCann
and here we are. what? oh, well, it's a given that people contact their friends first before the librarian - that's been found in our literature for probably close to 100 years. i'm thinking that search engines probably are above friends now... .what's really great is if you're friends with a ton of your scientists and engineers so even if they don't call "the library" they say, "well I'll just call Christina" (I get that a lot) - Christina Pikas
but about the article - I'm happy to see this because it supports the findings of the first wave of articles on the uptake of ICTs in science from the 90s. 1)it's not just a matter of time, 2) it isn't necessarily a matter of age (not all youngsters want to try or know how to use all new technologies), etc.3) usage across areas of science will differ - Christina Pikas
*bays at the moon* *sniffs* *catches a whiff of scientist* AROOOOOOOO! *chases* - D0r0th34
From Jo's comment, an outside observer would have to ask: Is it that science librarians make no effort to connect with researchers (which, given people like John D. and Christina P., I find VERY hard to believe) or that researchers show no interest in a connection? "You can lead a horse to water" and all that... but what do I know, being neither a scientist nor a librarian? - Walt Crawford
I think another aspect of this is the plain old fashioned 24 hour day. My students -- and yes, they are undergrads -- are absorbing so much content information that they MUST learn or they fail, and doing so much volunteer/shadowing that they MUST do or they cannot get into grad school, and even those doing research are so busy learning western blots and how not to screw things up that... more... - Mickey Schafer
I'm wondering what our generation is going to say the one after us is failing to adopt. Seems to me like there's an unspoken assumption behind the question - either there has to be mass uptake for it to be useful or something along the lines of "What's the business model?" These questions invariably seem to come as people are trying to justify the use of web20 tools to themselves or... more... - Mr. Gunn
Duncan Hull
Human genomes as email attachments. - http://www.citeulike.org/user...
The amount of genomic sequence data being generated and made available through public databases continues to increase at an ever-expanding rate. Downloading, copying, sharing and manipulating these large datasets are becoming difficult and time consuming for researchers. We need to consider using advanced compression techniques as part of a standard data format for genomic data. The inherent structure of genome data allows for more efficient lossless compression than can be obtained through the use of generic compression programs. We apply a series of techniques to James Watson's genome that in combination reduce it to a mere 4MB, small enough to be sent as an email attachment. Availability: Our algorithms are implemented in C++ and are freely available from http://www.ics.uci.edu/~xhx.... - Duncan Hull
an impressive feat of compression, like mp3 for dna! although thankfully lossless :) - Mike Chelen
how long before human genomes as spam ... - Anna Croft
Daniel Mietchen
The End of Peer Review and Traditional Publishing as We Know It - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc...
"Two predictions: * Within 5 years, most medical journals will be open-access. That means every journal will do what Medscape has done since day 1 in May 1995: provide access to trusted articles and data at no cost. * Peer review as we know it will disappear. Rather than the secretive prepublication review process followed by most publishers today, including Medscape, most peer review will occur transparently, and after publication." - Daniel Mietchen from Bookmarklet
One more paper by the same author is at http://jopm.org/index... , accompanying the paper discussed at http://ff.im/ajBYc . <quote> Consider the difference in a system that declares, “There is no real value in content that no one views,” to what we have in STM publishing today: the “ impact factor” that declares a journal important the more it is cited. </quote> - Daniel Mietchen
From that latter paper: <quote>My hope is to instigate change by organizing a conference, together with Richard Smith, dedicated to creating a reputation system for medical publishing. The Journal of Participatory Medicine could publish a special issue of the proceedings to disseminate and promote the conclusions. Here’s what I would like to see come of it: * A system that could create... more... - Daniel Mietchen
5 yrs most med jous OA? nice if it's true. at the current rate it's not going to happen that quickly. but perhaps we'll reach the crisis point where everything speeds up, or elsevier goes bust. as for the peer review, that's definitely going to take some time... - Joe Dunckley
Maxine
A single author identification system - http://blogs.nature.com/nautilu...
The advantages are so obvious. What are the real-world problems for getting this established? Thanks for posting this. - Björn Brembs
would be nice to have it as an OpenID as well ;) and have it really open, not owned/authored by a for-profit organization.. - Yaroslav Nikolaev
OpenID+. Having a site that (a) function as OpenID provider, (b) contains information about you (e.g. department, contact details) that _you_ are in control of (i.e. edit/hide), (c) can autogenerate your publication list, and (d) allows you to manually add other contributions to the advancement of science (e.g. open source projects). We'd need the backing of one or more major publishers, but stranger things have happened. Can't we set something up like that? - Jan Aerts
Sounds like a good idea. One ID to rule them all.... - Allyson Lister
+1 Jan. Between OpenID and the auto-publication-list generators at places like Nature Network and BioMedExperts, it seems like most of the necessary functionality exists, just not in one place. - Bill Hooker
There are initial investigations being made (certainly within the field of publishing and the library community) towards institutional identifiers which may well be easier to handle than trying to do the individual author identifiers. - Jill O'Neill
But institutional identifiers alone will not work. I've moved quite a few times and saw that people still try to contact me on the email address from two jobs back, because that was the email of the "corresponding author". - Jan Aerts
Would it help if journals suggested to authors that they include their OpenID with their address details, if they have one? That should be pretty easy to do. - Maxine
Maxine: Yes ! That would be great ! It would be nice to see that OpenID just like we can see the DOI of the paper ! This would motivate the other publishers to do this ! - Pierre Lindenbaum
Maxine: Yes, yes, yes! That would be absolutely brilliant! Are Rafael, Simon, and Peter (or Bora) about? This might actually work! - Cameron Neylon
I'm not a guru about OpenID. Can it be then used later to find the publications/geoloc/social networks ? - Pierre Lindenbaum
In the medium term I agree with Maxine: let journals suggest to authors to include their OpenID. But I'm also with Deepak's comment in the "related entry": we should separate our author ID from our general online identity. I'm still brooding on how this all could be incorporated into a system where you as a researcher can update your scientific contributions yourself in a central place... - Jan Aerts
Pierre: I suppose you still need a central website/database, like researcherID.com for example (I know: not open and stuff...). Ideally you'd log in using an OpenID which would also be your researcherID. Even better: the system could function as an OpenID provider itself (that would keep your scientific identity separate from your general online identity). But the website would then have all functionality to find publications/geoloc/social networks. Am I (a) kicking in open doors or (b) making no sense? - Jan Aerts
Jan: That makes sense. Of course it would be great if the NCBI could be this OpenId provider (well, at least for the biologists... ) - Pierre Lindenbaum
Pierre: NCBI could indeed be an OpenID provider, but it should be limited to that. We need a separate entity doing the publication/geo... functionality. This is important enough that it should be the core function of the entity providing it. Also: would be nice if we could add contributions like "have helped in discussion about blabla on FriendFeed" :-). (Or is that "distracted discussion from blabla") - Jan Aerts
All you really need is a unique identifier - it could be an openid or it could be a random string. The advantage of openid is that it acts as a pointer to a service which treats you as a resource. Services can then connect that to any other information that is available. The other advantage of openid is that the provider is completely irrelevant - it can be anybody from the journal to NCBI to an institution to a third party. You're never tied into one provider. - Cameron Neylon
I'll say there was an interesting meeting early this year sponsored by CNI to bring publishers, A&I vendors (like Thompson Scientific), library reps (including OCLC and LIbrary of Congress), and others with interest in this to talk about it. OpenID was mentioned but many publishers and vendors already have their own (internal and not eager to share) identification systems. I'm not sure if anything definite came out of that meeting unfortunately (and I was there). - Sarah
Maxine, if you get this proposal rolling, your name will be legion :) - Neil Saunders
Sarah - quite a few of these points were made in the EMBO piece at the link. In fact, probably the article is a report arising from that meeting - though there is not much information of that sort, or about the author, there (ironically!). I will ask about the "display openID" and get back to you - will not be instant because one person is away until new year, but I won't forget. - Maxine
BTW there has been a lot of discussion on this in Nature over the years too - since 2006 when I started the author blog I have attempted to capture the discussion there, see: http://blogs.nature.com/nautilu... (includes Raf's correspondence in fact). - Maxine
Finally got round to blogging about this. Let me know what you think....http://blogs.openaccesscentral.com/blogs... - Chris Leonard
@Chris : in my view, this central repository (CrossRef/NCBI?) would associate this ID with a FOAF file containing all the information you want to publicity release :, your interests, your web accounts, your contacts, your publications.... - Pierre Lindenbaum
Yes, sounds good Pierre. According to the EMBO article at the link and various others, one issue is all the world's registration systems recognising the ID. Other issues, also. As we mentioned in another thread very recently, I am following up on this and it is on the agenda of a wider discussion about authorship and related issues that is going on between various journals - I will keep people posted with what I hear. - Maxine
One major problem with setting up UAIDs seems to be the identification of a single provider of these IDs, and the monopoly that would result from it. So I feel like asking a provocative question: does one really need to have only one UAID provider ? When nucleotide databases were started, new sequences were communicated either to EMBL or Genbank, or even to other, more specialised,... more... - Etienne Joly
Bora Zivkovic
I don't care about business models of journalism/publishing. - http://scienceblogs.com/clock...
see http://twitter.com/jayrose... for another way to say the same thing - Bora Zivkovic
These platforms we use need to survive though. Are you saying they can survive without a business model Bora ? If they can I am on your side. If they can't I am quite willing to endure the business-model talk - even find it interesting perhaps........a business model is what may take friendfeed away - if we had known this was coming......... - Nils Reinton
No, I am not saying they do not require business models. I am just not interested in business models. Let the business people come up with business models - that's not my job. I am interested in social, political and technological aspects. Others can deal with the money angle. What I am complaining is that every discussion about the way Web is changing the world gets derailed by some CEO asking us to give them business models. I don't care. They should. - Bora Zivkovic
People like this deal with the business side: http://www.buzzmachine.com/2009... I find that interesting to read, but have no expertise of ideas to contribute myself. Or this collection of excellent links from a few months ago: http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone... - Bora Zivkovic
At first, I found the post rude and uncaring. Then I read the comparison with smiths and car factories and thought: good point! :-) - Björn Brembs
Duncan Hull
The Gower Street cuckoos, Joe Dunckley in Nature Futures - http://www.citeulike.org/user...
am i allowed to "like"? :) - Joe Dunckley
Of course, Is this your first Nature paper :-) - Duncan Hull
it is :) - Joe Dunckley
Cameron Neylon
The Future of the Paper…does it have one? (and the answer is yes!) - http://blog.openwetware.org/science...
"The problem is that we keep thinking in terms of journals, as though a pair of covers around a set of paper documents has any relevance in the modern world." <-- spot on. Come on, "The Journal of Stuff"? - Joe Dunckley
Same goes for things like that applet in PLoS ONE for the structural bio data representation. Journal of Cell Biology have an awesome "dataviewer" which is essentially a frontend for a database of microscopy datasets. Trouble is that they present the data as supplementary info associated with a paper in the journal, and cover up the fact that what they actually have is a potentially important database. - Joe Dunckley
Thinking out loud... do we really need to stretch the "I'll write up a precis of my contribution to science, you do some basic checks then make it findable and citable" author / journal relationship any further? A paper is all a journal needs to perform its basic function - to enable you to get credit for your work and to expose it (by virtue of being a trusted, editorially powered... more... - Euan
(not suggesting that the current incarnations of papers & journals couldn't do with lots of work, btw, just that you wouldn't necessarily need to broaden their remit much) - Euan
Good points - I think funders/institutions are the problem here, not journals/publishers. It's the former who insist on the paper as the basic unit of reporting and accreditation. - Neil Saunders
There's a problem that we're all thinking that everything should be online, which is fine as long as we have access, but once the battery dies, the paper version still works. - Bob O'Hara
Having written that, I agree that a lot more experimentation with what a "paper" looks like online is needed. We're certainly not using the web to its fullest. - Bob O'Hara
Journals are tags with no relevance: "The problem is that we keep thinking in terms of journals, as though a pair of covers around a set of paper documents has any relevance in the modern world." - Björn Brembs
Björn - I think the tags are of great importance socially (I recall disagreeing with Bill Hooker in NC on this...). thinking about paper as the main medium is old-fashioned, but some tag indicating quality is inevitable socially. - Bob O'Hara
Students ask me why journals keep proliferating. The only rational reason I can think of today is that journal X provides new functionality journal Y doesn't offer (think PLoS One or Frontiers in Neuroscience). Will we see further fragmentation of publishing functionalities with new ideas spawning new journals? In this case the real proliferation of journals hasn't even started yet.... more... - Björn Brembs
Ha! What a beautiful idea. I guess the web allows this proliferation, but that means that a lot of really obscure journals get started. At some point, it would be better to publish in a general journal like PLoS One: if your work is going to be judged as obscure, you might as well publish in a journal people have heard of. - Bob O'Hara
All it takes is peer-review, a registration with, say, PubMed and it's about as obscure as any other journal on PubMed... - Björn Brembs
Euan, I probably should have been more specific in my use of the term publisher. Traditional publishers (could) have a role to play if they so choose. But there may well be different publishers (individuals, institutions, groups, funders) who will be better publishers for different things. My feeling is that a proliferation of journals (to the extreme of "one paper journals" - and there are several around already) is the same as no journals really. - Cameron Neylon
I can see us giving up the mantle of 'publisher' (and what that has previously inferred), and - as eloquently put directly above - become more like the service providers who currently work for us. There is definitely an expectation among publishers and scientists alike that the web should be providing more than the PDF (or HTML 'copy') we make available now. And to keep an audience, that expectation will need to be - at least - met. - Matthew Llewellin
I don't think the main reason new journals proliferate is new functionality - in fact, I would say it's very rare that new journals introduce new functionality (most are yet another on a standard platform like Springerlink, ScienceDirect, Sage, Xplore, AIP Publishing...). I think that there's usually some specialized subcommunity that thinks they're not getting what they need so want to do their own thing. Might be a charismatic editor who gets support and convinces others to go along - Christina Pikas
In a sense the proliferation is a result of a desire for new functionality - at least in the form of new content, sometimes new types of content. But there is also an (I think mistaken) idea that making a journal can create a community. That "having a journal" makes a community legitimate in some sense. Which is to me the same error as assuming that by building a web site a community... more... - Cameron Neylon
Cameron basically replied to Christina for me :-) Thanks! With 'rational' reason I was trying to convey that there currently probably are more 'irrational' reasons to come up with a new journal than rational ones. These journals are not going to survive anyway. However, looking at the examples I gave above, one could think of someone saying: "hey, I have this great way of improving... more... - Björn Brembs
Sorry for typing while thinking - could the submission process of the future be modular: I want this sort of peer-review from this organization, this sort of format from that organization, this sort of indexing from yet another organization, etc? - Björn Brembs
ideally, i guess, you'd have an interesting research problem, you would pick the research method that tests what you want to test or tells you what you want to know, then you would write up the results and then submit to a journal that is appropriate to the research problem and method... BUT... if there is no appropriate journal or you're up for tenure or... you submit to some place... more... - Christina Pikas
I love the idea of modular pieces you can plug together. Really plays to the "publisher as service provider" idea that Michael Nielsen has been writing about. - Cameron Neylon
Victor / Mendeley Team
Someone just applied to work for Mendeley as a "Search Engine Optimist". Positive thinking!
Bill Hooker
Open and Shut?: E-Biomed 2.0? - http://poynder.blogspot.com/2009...
Richard Poynder adds some historical context to the new PLoS Currents. Fun read for anyone interested in OA. - Bill Hooker from Bookmarklet
Deepak Singh
How To Publish a Scientific Comment in 123 Easy Steps - http://news.ycombinator.com/item...
"Because that's not how you get funded. Your funding/tenure, etc are related to where you publish, how often you publish, etc. It's a systemic issue, a system designed for a different era which just does not translate to today's science" - Deepak Singh
Noah Gray
The filthiest chemistry abstract ever??? - http://pubs.acs.org/doi... [courtesy of Richard Van Noorden]
nl-2009-01380u_0007.gif
Please forgive me, Michael, I just had to test the boundaries of the room with this one... Figure FAIL - Noah Gray
Heh. I think that's the first time I've seen a figure in an abstract. Maybe it's common in journals I don't ordinarily read, I don't know. But I guess it's a lot easier to do online (no pesky length restrictions, easier to do colour), so you could argue it's at least very loosely Science 2.0. But if that's going to be a typical use case, let's go back to Science 1.0 :-) - Michael Nielsen
(Actually, I would be interested to know: is this something new to online journals, or have I just been reading the wrong journals?) - Michael Nielsen
The ACS journals have been doing that for a while - Deepak Singh
Deepak - offline? - Michael Nielsen
I don't remember :). It's been a long time since I saw an offline abstract, although vaguely remember structures in JACS - Deepak Singh
the RCS ones do, too, and I think Elsevier just added "graphical abstracts" for some journals - mostly in chemistry, I think though. I can't remember the last time I saw one in print. - Christina Pikas
Of my RSS subscriptions (http://www.google.com/reader...), I see this only for ACS (Biochemistry, J Prot Res). The feed contains only title + graphic, not abstract, which is often not very useful. - Neil Saunders
Like there was any doubt that this would turn into a useful Science 2.0 conversation... - Noah Gray
Not as lewd as the purely textual one about copper nanotubes...Ooh, matron, think of the abbreviations... (Angewandte has had graphical abstracts for years too) - David Bradley
I'm actually embarrassed that this is at the top of my "Best of Day" feed. You are all twisted and I, apparently, am an enabler... - Noah Gray
LOL, Noah, it's been at the top of mine for a while, too, despite me having not liked or, until now, commented on this. - Mr. Gunn
No. This one tops it: http://pubs.acs.org/doi... - Joe Dunckley
Seems like we presented these out of order, eh?? - Noah Gray from iPhone
Bill Hooker
Branislav Kropilak: long exposures of airplane landings, factories, windmills, etc - http://www.kropilak.com/...
Branislav Kropilak: long exposures of airplane landings, factories, windmills, etc
I thought Pawel in particular might enjoy these. - Bill Hooker from Bookmarklet
geometry play in garages & billboards is really amazing! thanks Bill! ;-) - Yaroslav Nikolaev
I had the idea to do something like the garages series, but I never had the time and frankly, I don't have the technical chops to do it at that level. I bet those images are stunning at, say, 100cm high. - Bill Hooker
Nice find Bill! Thanks a lot. I haven't seen Kropilak's photography before. - Pawel Szczesny
Karen James
@cromercrox I happen to agree w/ Dawks on religion, but I wish he would stick to science b/c when he does, he's excellent: http://www.open2.net/dawkins/
people always whinge about dawkins doing harm by turning the religious away from science. i'm skeptical of this (the dim ones never got science, and the intelligent ones are quite capable of rising above it). but i bet he's converted a lot of atheists who have found him through TGD to the delights of learning about science. - Joe Dunckley
Andrew Taylor
My First Dictionary (via @TiernanDouieb) - http://myfirstdictionary.blogspot.com/
Jonathan Eisen
Another reason to publish as Open Access - libraries hurting big time financially and they will be cancelling many subscriptions - http://phylogenomics.blogspot.com/2009...
Confirms what was said for Open Access Day http://openaccessday.org/wp-cont... "Universities, who support and produce research, can’t keep up with inflating journal prices and are forced to cut subscriptions. With Open Access, instead of cutting off access to information to professors and students, we are able to provide that knowledge without increasing the college’s costs.” Diane J. Graves, University Librarian, Trinity University (Texas) - Duncan Hull
Neil Saunders
using lynx gives great insight into how stuffed-up some websites are (*cough* wiley interscience *cough*)
if stuffed up = screwed up, shoot, i can see that in firefox :) - Christina Pikas
Trust me, it's more fun with lynx :-) Now, would you like an invalid cookie or three? - Neil Saunders
peter murray-rust
The ICE-man: Scholary HTML not PDF - http://wwmm.ch.cam.ac.uk/blogs...
Peter asks: "So why does academia use PDF? Because the publishers like it. Because it looks like a good way to preserve things" -- There are many reasons why publishers should not / do not like PDFs. But I've heard more than once that it is the scientists and academics themselves who like / are most comfortable with PDFs and that publishing companies ought to provide documents in the format that their readers want. - Hilary
Yeah, I'm not sure that PMR is being entirely fair there. I think that if you gave most researchers of my acquaintance anything other than a pdf, they'd pitch a monumental hissy fit because it wasn't what they were used to. - Bill Hooker
PMR is a bit... dogmatic about these things. *g* - D0r0th34
Agree with Bill. Researcher told me he didn't have full text access to something . When I checked he had HTML full text but not a PDF and thats what he actually meant. - suelibrarian
"But how are we going to cite without paaaaaaaaaaaage nuuuuuuuuuuumbers?" - D0r0th34
I remember reading in WSJ or NYT or similar a few years ago that there is an age divide between people who can read electronically and those who need to print it out on paper. My age (1974 birth year) was right on the boundary. I've definitely grown much more accustomed to reading electronic PDFs. However, my ability to read HTML versions of articles is awful. For example, I recently... more... - Steve Koch
I haven't read PMR's post, but I can think of two reasons why I prefer PDFs. (1) I've been taught how to read scientific papers based on the printed old-school versions. Thus I'm wired for PDFs and need lots of practice to deal with HTML versions. This is probably a huge factor for most people, but I think I could get over it. (2) I like to take notes in the margin, highlight, etc. and save these for future reference. There's pretty much no good way to do this with HTML so far. As far as I know. - Steve Koch
Steve, there are tools to annotate (make, save and share notes) at any web page: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag.... - Neil Saunders
Thanks, Neil -- I will look into it. I've looked for it several times in the past, but never found something that I could use with confidence of never losing my notes and / or being able to share them. The first I can remember was I think called "Third Voice" in the late 90's? Recently, Cameron gave me a couple good links (http://friendfeed.com/steveko...). I am still using Evernote, but obviously it's not what we're talking about here. - Steve Koch
In addition, many bookmark managers (I use Diigo) allow you to add notes, highlights and so on. See also: http://a.nnotate.com/ - Bill Hooker
I guess basically since PDFs are always available (for most scientific articles) AND importantly, you can count on everyone else being able to read a PDF that you share with them (I'm thinking students), I've not yet been able to switch. - Steve Koch
If Mendeley (or others) come out with an ability to store a PDF of an article, that allows multiple people to scribble on it in their own colored ink, without sync issues, I think that's going to be great. Probably that will perpetuate whatever problem PMR is talking about (which I still haven't read :) ) - Steve Koch
I was just going to ask, who's using Diigo. Bill, how do you find it? - Neil Saunders
Not to mention, Neil & Bill, I demand some credit for at least being able to read a paper without printing it out on paper :) - Steve Koch
PS I'm older than Steve (I hate you accomplished whippersnappers) but I have no trouble with html and on-screen reading. It did take me a while to break the print-it-out-and-read habit though. There are applications for which printouts are still useful -- reading on the bus, for instance, if like me you can't afford a laptop -- and this should be taken into account when developing scholarly html, since regular web pages usually look like shit when printed. - Bill Hooker
I also read mostly on-screen and very rarely print anything out. For me it's a learned behaviour, not natural, but fine once you commit to it. - Neil Saunders
You're older than me? You seem like more of a whippersnapper definitely. - Steve Koch
@Neil, I like Diigo quite a lot. It's fast, intuitive to use and has some neat features like highlighting (though I haven't used that yet). There are some problems -- tag import from Simpy is messed up, and tag editing in general seems to be fubar at the moment -- but the forums are active and progress does seem to be being made on the bugs. I liked Simpy much better (cleaner,... more... - Bill Hooker
Typesetting of PDFs, in most journals, is superior than HTML, which is why I prefer to read a PDF version if it is available. It is nicer to the eyes. But It certainly has not a friendly backend for our expected semantic future... - Bruno C. Vellutini
Common everyone. PDF does suck! Big time! (HTML can too, if used badly.) We probably spent millions of grant money on text mining. Which is money down the drain. If we would have saved the facts in a useful data format, these millions could have been spend to *your* research. Think about that! - Egon Willighagen
As I seem to be the only physicist/mathematician who comments on these sort of things, I feel like a broken record, but math support in browsers currently sucks extremely badly and this is a primary reason why we will continue to use PDF for quite some time. Whilst I am in favor of things being stored in a semantic, searchable format such as HTML, we cannot win in physics/math until... more... - Matt Leifer
Matt, I had the impressions that the HTML/MathML technology was well established... there is quite a few MathML in this page: http://qsar.sourceforge.net/dicts... And except for a few markup that got outdated (it seems), many equations show up nicely in off the shelf Firefox... - Egon Willighagen
Is it historical? A lot of academics have used type setting languages like Tex which produce postscript files for printing and as PDF is just postscript but with a free reader for the desktop it makes sense. - John Cooper
Just off plane... great to see discussion. Points: (i) why does citation need page numbers? why not just a DOI (ii) Anyone tried marking up a PDF so the terms are hyperlinked. I have, it's ghastly (iii) The reason academics use PDF is that the publishers weaned them onto it in the lat 1990's - the rest of the web was fine with HTML. If we want an intelligent medium we have to go beyond pages - peter murray-rust
As an aside a comment I heard yesterday "one of the things we got out of user testing is that our online services were not enabling the very important user activity of reading in bed" - Cameron Neylon
Yet, they seem to have no problem using the web for accessing any other data in bed... - Egon Willighagen
Peter: heck if I know, but boy do they ever whinge about it. Steve, others: you might enjoy the Readability bookmarklet, http://lab.arc90.com/experim... . Lots of online journals who stick with HTML use TERRIBLE-looking HTML; Readability helps a lot. - D0r0th34
At the end of the day the only way I think this will change is by journals priviledging the online html form over the pdf and making it more functional. Once paper printout (which for most is synonymous with pdf) is a second rate version of the document then things will start (slowly) to improve I think. - Cameron Neylon
occurs to me the other community that like pdf is government. Need for a sense of control rearing its ugly head again? - Cameron Neylon
Immutability is a reason I've often heard bruited about. There are probably better ways to achieve that if it is a desideratum (e.g. checksums), but that's the story. - D0r0th34
D0r0th34, you mean your editor does not import PDFs?? - Egon Willighagen
We need proper versioning and provenance rather than immutability. Treat the root cause rather than the symptom? - Cameron Neylon
Agreed, Cameron. - D0r0th34
Yes, I'm begininig to feel that we mostly agree to the extent that people feel they need to take contrary positions on this :-) How do we actually break the conversation out to the people causing the problems...? - Cameron Neylon from twhirl
Scientists should talk to their peers... reviewers and authors talking to editors (who are scientists too). Publishers are listening... - Egon Willighagen
PDF for article publishing is like TIFF for image publishing -- the practice started a long time ago and even though there are better standards for each (HTML and JPEG2000, respectively) the old ways continue to hang on. Inertia, perhaps? - Peter Murray
One nice thing about a PDF, though, is that it is an all-encompassing file format. With HTML, you have separate files for the marked up text, the style sheet, the graphics, and so forth. We don't have a similar widely-adopted file structure for bundling up all of the parts of an HTML page into one physical file. (Although WARC sounds promising.) - Peter Murray
I really think it's more about typesetting and formatting. Publishers like to make things look the same everywhere, and this cannot be achieved using HTML (Unless you're extremely anal and write a CSS file for every known browser). Peter's comment above also gets at another problem with using HTML. It's not all encompassing in that inserted images are not a part of the document. They... more... - Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
Composite documents are a problem, but speaking from a digital preservationist's POV, they can be much LESS of a problem than documents that embed everything. I'd far rather curate a complex HTML+CSS+images+sound+whatever than some kind of whiz-bang multimedia-embedded PDF, because I can deal with each file type separately without imperiling the whole. - D0r0th34
I'm really enjoying this conversation, by the way. Just wanted to point you to an (open source) HTML/Markdown/Runtime-rendering with plain text fallback (that's a mouth full) documentation system I developed called Mandown: http://wittman.org/mandown/ . It's aimed at building accessible 'How To' manuals rather than academic/research compositions, but I'd certainly invite any feedback as to how it might be useful or modified for that context. - Micah Wittman
Egon - I know that LaTeX to HTML/MathML is possible (although I'd recommend tex4ht as the current best tool rather than ttm). There are still plenty of problems with it - too many to go into here, but perhaps I'll write a blog post on it at some point. However, perhaps the main problem is that it is not currently integrated into scientist's workflows. I don't know any user friendly... more... - Matt Leifer
A comparison of HTML and PDF from a BMC article. http://wwmm.ch.cam.ac.uk/blogs... - peter murray-rust
PMR, nice post - your mark-up goes a bit wonky about half-way through. - Neil Saunders
@Neil this is ICE-markup, not mine. - peter murray-rust
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the premise that PDF only exists in academia. All but a few of my online bills come in PDF format. My insurance company ships me forms and documents in PDF format. Just providing some counter-examples. - Peter Murray
Oh, and the Bo "baseball card" from the Whitehouse: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog... - Peter Murray
Kick me if this is super-obvious, but... any workflow that has print as one product will find it much easier to make PDF than markup. Getting clean (much less semantic) markup out of a typesetting workflow has been a problem since I was a wee conversion peasant a decade ago, and honestly? not much has changed about that. It can be done, mind you -- but it's often not easily automatable, and MUCH depends on the skill and frustration tolerance of the typesetter. - D0r0th34
I think there is no doubt that journals should always provide a hypertext full-version of articles so people can access and read within the browser, extract data with ease and build semantically driven databases for any purpose. It is scientifically better. However, if journals will still print hard copies they need typesetting. And why not provide a PDF with good quality formatting for... more... - Bruno C. Vellutini
Peter Murray: a lossless compression format such as TIFF is preferred over JPEG at times when the image quality is significantly more important than the file size - Mike Chelen
Simon Cockell
changing the licenses on my blog etc to CC-BY
Nils Reinton
awwwwww :D - laura
what about the electrons? - Paulo Nuin
Maybe the atom is H+..... - Nils Reinton
Hilary
The Fairfax Circuit Court dismisses Thomson-Reuters's lawsuit over Zotero - http://arstechnica.com/web... (via http://friendfeed.com/the-lif...)
Lots of details on the case here: http://www.citmedialaw.org/threats... - Hilary
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