John Cass

I didn't drop out but here is part of my experience in this post from years ago. It was discouraging to hear the professors talk. Needless to say i don't code. :-) http://www.altamirano.org/mark... - antonio

Thankfully I'm in the other 50%, but I can see why many would change their major or drop out. I saw it first hand where many 1st and 2nd year Mechanical Engineering students changed their majors to something 'easier'. The most common reason was difficulty with the required advanced Math courses. Calculus being the road block for many. - Jeff P. Henderson

If I were entering college now, I would try to go to Olin. I really like their approach. - Paul Buchheit

nice post, I'm looking for the number of engineers (or per thousand capita ratio) graduating in Greece (or greeks graduating around the world) - george tziralis

Many of Computer Science professors at Stanford were luminaries in their fields, but weren't very good at engaging students in the subject matter. Brilliant researchers don't always make the best teachers. I think this contributed a lot to the dropout rate. - Jess Lee

How does this compare to drop-out rate for all US college students? And does "drop out" mean "of college entirely" or "take a break then come back" or "and choose another major"? The discussion may be lusty but I really don't like discussions that start on a figure w/ no bother to compare it to anything else, or link to info about how it's calculated. - Wade Dorrell

In CA we have two types of public universities. The UC schools require the professors to do research, where as the State University schools do not. I think the State University schools are much better for undergrad tech education as you get much more attention from your professors. - Jeff P. Henderson

The UC Berkeley College of Engineering started the Center For Entrepreneurship and Technology http://cet.berkeley.edu to address some of the issues Dodge talks about. - Ruchira S. Datta

Engineering is hard and requires above-average intelligence. Think about it this way: Statistics tells us that probably 50% of people will be below-average. Wouldn't you want those 50% of the students to drop out before actually becoming an engineer? MIT just doesn't admit that half of the population in the first place, but most schools don't have that luxury. - Gabe

People have a lot of options for (a) careers (b) money (c) power (d) image (e) attracting mates in the US, compared to China/India. Engineers are not valued very highly in the US compared to businesspeople, doctors, and lawyers. - Mitchell Tsai

boring - Gregory Lent

@Gabe: You would think that all the people that go to study Computer Sciences or seek other Engineering degrees are above the 50% average to begin with. - Amit Morson

somestimes it's a scoail or maturity thing - was for me. I get by. Wished I finished. - Alan Wilensky via Alert Thingy

It's because of the fact that people with higher standards of living pursue less demanding challenges offering similar ROI (I = investment+involvement). That's why there's so many non-US students (especially from lower income countries) in engineering and why they're much less inclined to fail. - Nenad Nikolic via twhirl

Engineering sucks. I think there's a point where any engineering student realizes that even with a degree they're looking at a pretty mediocre salary working in a really boring job. Add this to the difficult coursework and boring courses, well, engineers are good at math. It adds up to being a raw deal. That being said, if you get into engineering at Stanford or UC Berkley, your ROI would look a lot better then mine. I'm sure a large number of engineering students consider dropping out, even after Calculus. - Will Higgins

All I can do is nod. For a couple of years, not a day when by when I didn't consider jumping ship, for all the reasons commenters here have mentioned: long hours, heavy workload, fickle job market, salary barely comparable with what I could expect with a business or law degree. But here I am, a month away from (finally!) finishing my EE degree, and I couldn't be happier. - Derrick Burns

Continued from above: Basically, I think so many give up because they were looking to get something out of being an engineer: money, prestige, etc. But it's simply too great a commitment on several levels. You really have to pursue engineering because it's something you want to do, something you care about. - Derrick Burns

I dropped out because Chemical Engineering was not what I was expecting. I wanted more Chemistry, less Math. I switched to IT Management and found it much more interesting. Mind you, I'm Canadian. - Shey

I remember having a crisis in my final year of Electrical/Computer Engineering. Dropping out was a non-option, but I did consider completely abandoning 3.5 years of engineering study to switch fields and schools during my senior year. In hindsight, I didn't understand what engineers really did. My vision at the time was closer to industrial or product design than engineering. I had to take it on faith in my first two years that I was on a path to do what I was envisioning. - Kelly Norton

I suspect that more than 50% (even at good schools like GATech, I have friends who have done this) are in the wrong field. Many of my friends went into programming because they enjoyed computers and I've told them they would hate it because they don't like math. They don't listen. :) - Michael J. Cohen (mjc)

still others go into engineering due to parental expectation, which I find ridiculous, but understandable - Michael J. Cohen (mjc)

I personally think it's because a lot of them can learn on their own and get work. My friend dropped out, taught himself C++, worked at a job three years and jammed, then transitioned to a major, major company where he made serious bank - all in about four years total. It would have cost him half of what he earned at his first big job to finish school. - Patricia

Amit: one of the properties of being in the lower 50% is not knowing that you're in the lower 50%. That means many of the applicants do not know they are unqualified. - Gabe

Extensive aptitude/personality testing could fix this - Aaron Eaton

Engineering is a tough subject. how does that compare to other subjects? - John Cass via twhirl

I actually sit on an advisory board for ASU (arizona state) Poly - I can tell you that what I see is students becoming disillusioned by all the stuff they have to learn before they can go out and create something "cool". The challenge is keeping them engaged through the pre-reqs/early coursework. BTW - IMHO the problem with "drop out and learn X" is that they've intentionally skipped the fundamentals that make good engineers. Just because you can code doesn't mean you can engineer... two different things. - Brian Roy

Is Computer Science part of engineering? Because it didn't take much training in Computer Science for me to start doing cool stuff. I wrote my first game and posted it onto the internet my freshman year (Core Wars). By my Junior year, I had designed a programming language and integrated in it into a MUD. Pengtoh had contributed to Linux by his sophomore year. On the other hand, I always flunked electrical engineering classes, and couldn't stomach math past linear algebra. - Piaw Na

I switch from Engineering to a Computer Science degree. Apart from the fact that I wanted to program, there were two reasons. 1) The load was very high (it was close to 40 contact hours/week in first year). 2) The maths was hard - I'm ok at math, but combined with the high load I found I struggled when I wasn't too interested in it. - Nick Lothian

"the US should staple a Green Card to every foreign student's engineering diploma and encourage them to stay in the USA." - Clare Dibble

Same as Nick here. Dropped out due to difficulty and lack of passion for the field. Went back later to finish a BS in Computer Information Systems. - Bill Sanders

I wonder what percentage of medical school students drop out. Engineering is a hard discipline, if you want to be a web dev or a study IT or "new media" instead. Making engineering "softer" because today's students don't like to work hard and expect results instantly will just create generations of mediocre engineers and will not make the US more of an engineering power. - Kevin Goldsmith via twhirl

engineering is not hard, it is so specialized and narrow, that anybody with any sort of wide mind feels suffocated .. - Gregory Lent

I'm watching in China. What a world. - Robert Scoble

Watching now -- I think the appearance of "I'm on top of it and look at all these big names" is the story more than anything else. This is a confidence game and the experience and names behind him are to build confidence. - Joe Beda

I think we're all watching this. - Mike Doeff

Recording audio of the press conference. - Dave Winer

Re recording -- I'll be impressed if the video of this immediately shows up on change.gov. It would be even better if they were streaming from there. - Joe Beda

Great move to build confidence, something Bush has been completely unable to do. - Jason Kaneshiro

he's really stressing and emphasizing the middle class. - Thomas Hawk

seems to be stressing extension of unemployment benefits, the middle class and helping state and local govts. Nobody's asked him about the auto industry yet. - Thomas Hawk

I'm glad to hear the focus on job loss / creation. - Jeff P. Henderson

He pretty much promised that he wouldn't let auto industry down in his initial comments. No specifics but basically a declaration of "too big to fail." Didn't he say "backbone of American manufacturing"? - Joe Beda

Obama has a good point. As much as I'd like to see the Auto industry deal with this on their own, it would be to big a fail, to big a loss of jobs and a significant drag on the economy to passively let the US auto industry die. - Jeff P. Henderson

Big FAIL on books, dog and schools questions. This is not a "human interest" interview. - Joe Beda

@Jeff. Oh wow, that doesn't look good for getting rid of the oil industry then. - Wizetux

they're asking him about what kind of dog he's going to get now. Says he's going to get a hypo allerginic dog and preference for a shelter dog. No decision on public or private school for his kids yet. - Thomas Hawk

I can't believe that they're asking him about his dog and nobody's brought up the U.S. automakers yet. - Thomas Hawk

think Obama will need to brush up on his QnA skills. - MikeAmundsen

I am not sure, I think he is doing a pretty good job. I mean it isn't like he could do worse than what we have seen in the last 8 years. - Wizetux

I thought he sounded very confident and Presidential in the conference. - Thomas Hawk

@Wiztex, don't think saving the auto industry has anything to do with saving or killing the oil industry. It will not go away anytime soon. - Jeff P. Henderson

Time to deliver ( soon )....clock has started to tick - imran

@Jeff: I was more talking about how the oil industry is so entrenched in our economy and provides so many jobs, that if you can't let the auto industry fail on this basis, then we will never be able to let the oil industry fail for the same reasons. - Wizetux

I loved Obama in this first press conference. He is so much better than Bush it isn't funny at communicating. On CNN here in China they showed the stock market ticker the whole time and it was nice to see the market stayed confident through the whole thing. Also, I liked that he moderated his tax plan and that he's focusing on stimulus, saying "that's the first thing I'd do as President" if it doesn't get done earlier. - Robert Scoble

@imran -- I dunno -- the clock doesn't really start ticking until Jan. The first part of his statement was to say that there is only one president at a time. - Joe Beda

I liked the emphasis on the middle class (of which I am proudly a part). More jobs, another stimulus, extension of unemployment benefits, can't argue with any of that. So much better than the "cut taxes on the rich, and wait (hope) it trickles down to the middle class" garbage of the last 8 years. - Jason Kaneshiro

He had 17 people on stage with him as part of his economic team. - Thomas Hawk

Not a bad press conference. Schmidt for CTO in '09? - Thomas Stromberg

@Wizetux, Sorry I totally missed your point. I agree with your point. Although I think the oil industry is in a much better position than the auto industry and they do realize that the days of cheap and easy oil are numbered. All of them are investing in alternative energy development. For instance, BP is already one of the largest photo voltaic panel producers. - Jeff P. Henderson

Thomas: I would really hate it to see Schmidt as CTO. Need someone a little more removed from big business. I want someone like Larry Lessig. - Robert Scoble

I liked the way they called him "sir" and the one person who called him Senator really stood out. It was definitely a refreshing change from Bush press conferences. Didn't like the swipe he took at Nancy Reagan, or the attempt at self-deprecation when he called himself a mutt. But 9.5 out of 10. Good job. - Dave Winer

Lessig++ - Joe Beda

Dave: I liked the mutt quote, but agree with you about Nancy. - Robert Scoble

Lessig++. IMO, The job requirements include: deep tech understanding, deep understanding of government (especially legislation), technology platform neutrality, and understanding of the transformative power of technology. Sorry, but Schmidt doesn't meet any of those (nether does Ballmer, btw). - Chris Hollander

the Nancy Reagan quote was a bit out of place. He was trying to be funny but probably shouldn't have at the expense of an Ex-President's widow. That said, I'm sure a first Presidential Elect news conference is a very nerve racking thing and I think he did a very good job and sounded very confident. A very good move having his economic team up there with him. That sent a powerful message about his number one priority. - Thomas Hawk

I thought Obama did a good job. I doubt Schmidt for CTO, or any other CEO of a major company. There's plenty of smart non-CEOs for that job that aren't critical to the economic stability of their companies. On the auto bailout, if they're too big to fail, are they too big to suck? Because if I'm being forced to lend or buy equity in these companies, I like to specify what they build. - Chris White

@ Joe: All indicates recession is deepening, so Senator must get ready for worsening situation, before he takes his seat at cockpit in severe economic turbulence, and disengage bush's auto pilot. - imran

@Wizetux There is a huge difference between a sudden failure of an entire industry as opposed to a gradual phasing out. Should the auto industry have mass layoffs and plant and dealership closings it would put hundreds of thousands of citizens out of work immediately with no time to re-train them or ease them into other work. We see industries become extinct all the time, just not in a matter of months (for the most part). - Jeff Jones

someone should have asked him a more direct question though about GM/Ford/Chrysler. I can't believe they asked him about what kind of a dog he was going to get but didn't ask him about one of the most pressing economic questions around right now. - Thomas Hawk

Thomas, it's typical of a failed mainstream media industry flailing about. - Bob M. Montgomery via twhirl

Any speculation on Buffet's place in Obama's team? - Jeff B

Is it just me, or does it seem like political discussion on FF has gotten more intelligent now that the election is over? - Bruce Lewis via fftogo

totally - seems everyone has mellowed out about everything a huge amount - Richard Bradshaw

@Jeff B. I think Buffet is a really outside chance for Sec Treasury. He's said he doesn't want to work in politics in the past and I'd assume that his taking this position would require him to put his personal assets in a blind trust or treasury securities, neither which he'd want to do. Then there's also the question about what it would do to Berkshire Hathaway's stock price. - Thomas Hawk

I wish he weren't such a dick then I could feel unconflicted when I feel sorry for him. - Dave Winer

Zombie McCain - tehKenny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... - stretta via twhirl

tryin to goose obama - jeneane sessum

Lyrics: John Lennon - Crippled Inside - David Newman

No, he wasn't trying to goose Obama. The camera angle is playing making it kinda look that way. This was at the end where McCain was gonna go to his right to shake the moderator's hand and the moderator went to McCain's left so there was a little foot-dancing going on. So, McCain was like okay, left or right, left or right? - Mark Bacas

WTF? - Abby Martin

@Mark hasn't McCain made up his mind if he's left or right yet then? :) - Ian May

classic, when I saw that live, I was like, "hmmm...how presidential" But at least he seems to be in good spirits. - nilo ayson via twhirl

"Whoops! Must not show them that we are lizard people until after the election. Then we can eat them all"....V lives! - Abby Martin

Seriously...WTF? - Devlin Dunsmore via twhirl

"Brainzzz"... scnr :) - Holger Eilhard

ACK, hairball! - Jonathan Hardesty

A real professional -- almost as good as tossing your cookies at a state event in a foreign country - AaronTheLibrarian

yes, I think so, a good memory device for finding a site. recall the conversation about Amazon.com? Why call a book store Amazon.com. Yet now it just seems the most natural name in the world. So my take is that URLs do matter. Unless you mean some other aspect? - John Cass via twhirl

No because "normal people" use search engines to find sites making SEO and SEM much more critical than URLs. It's also interesting to note that Google Chrome has recognized this in their use of the address bar where it doubles as a search bar. - Tim Elliott

today on a talk show to which my wife was listening: "Here is the URL...www.sboe.state." "That's long, search for NC State Board of Elections" -- folks will search for Amazon.com before they will type it in the address bar. - jerobins

All that money people spent securing domain names-- mostly wasted. - Kevin

Probably not to find it, but to advertise it? Do you want some crap URL emblazoned across your bidness cards? Your invoices? Your letterheads? So no, it's not strictly necessary. But neither are clothes that match or a car that's clean. Me, I like matching clothes and a--well...matching clothes, anyway. - colleen wainwright

I've seen people use the search bar as the address bar; so, URLs probably don't matter to most. But I agree about matching clothes, etc. :-) I think it's like good biz cards--90% of the time they get thrown away, but the professional image for that 10% matters. - Christine Taylor

In my experience, people lose interest after the top-level domain. And yes, search bar = address bar for many, many people. The URL to any point of entry beyond the site root should be as short and simple as possible. - Tom Harrison

what if that marketer is not open about what they are selling? - John Cass via Alert Thingy

John: if they do that in public that not only takes some big ones, but could be very illegal as well. There are laws in the United States that govern advertising speech. - Robert Scoble

True robert, though I was thinking about direct emails, and someone initially just asking questions, rather than stating what they wanted. - John Cass via Alert Thingy

JS-Kit employees are known to behave in a pretty insisting manner when trying to persuade bloggers to using their service. But actually Disqus was equally persuasive in the early days until they reached kind of massive adoption. So I think it is simply an issue of company trying to beat a more successful competitor by all possible means. - Svetlana Gladkova

Come on, he reported the guy to Twitter as a Spammer! LAME, FAIL! - Igor The Troll

I think reporting as a spammer is too much here, absolutely. Does not he see enough real spemmers on Twitter& Block the user and stop paying attention if you don't like this, I believe it's perfectly enough. - Svetlana Gladkova via twhirl

Overreaction to good marketing. - Brad Nickel

Brad: +1, especially when overreaction is picked up by Mashable :) - Svetlana Gladkova via twhirl