John Dupuis

Sure, but back then online community was a very marginal activity. Now, everybody has to deal with trolls and those tools just aren't going to work as well on a mass level. The interesting point to me is that to a certain degree we're just stuck with poisoned communities. Not all communities will have the problem and many/most be adjust to deal with the trolls. But it's like spam, the... more... - John Dupuis

Also, on balance, I don't regard web 2.0 as a social disaster. It's more of a series of community building challenges which can lead to hopefully isolated social disasters. - John Dupuis

or socially isolated disasters? - DJF

disastrously isolated socialists? - John Dupuis

Perhaps I'm testing my luck, but I've yet to find a bothersome troll here. Yeah, there have been some, but they quickly get unfollowed by everyone I'm following, so they drop off the radar. - Mr. Gunn

I agree. Friendfeed could be the perfect case study in building good community. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most people use their real names or at least are easily trackable to their real names. Even the pseudonymous tend to have very stable, consistent online identities. There's very little anonymity here, which tends to lead to the worst abuses. - John Dupuis

That's a good point, John. It's not so much the Real Name(tm) as it is the stability and consistency of the identifier. - Mr. Gunn

I was thinking FF's relative propriety might be partly the tendency toward real names/stable identifiers and partly the way Block works--when someone finds out that their trolling isn't even being heard, much less responded to, they may go play in some other sandbox. - Walt Crawford

I strongly believe that pseudonymity ought to be respected (Kathryn Cramer disagrees and hence http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/901816... ) but yeah, stable identifiers are good. But honestly I think FF's relative propriety is because it's new. Usenet had killfiles, but there were still always enough people around to feed the trolls. - Deborah Fitchett

Deborah, I am somewhat aware of racefail controversies and Kathryn's role in them. What's interesting for me is that it's obviously quite possible for a intelligent and sensitive person (and I do know Kathryn a little bit through the SF community) to both decry online social disasters and to be a part of them. I have seen the trolls and they are us. We interact differently with online... more... - John Dupuis

I find it bizarre that he seemed able to write the whole blog post and never once think to himself, "Hey, I'm talking about public libraries here!" - John Dupuis

Link to Shirky blog post: http://bit.ly/1iLyP9 - John Dupuis

I think he's wrong, but I think the ABA is wronger. I have a totally different vibe from a bookstore than I do from a library. Part of that is because the bookstore isn't so egalitarian--there aren't dozens of homeless people milling around the entrance. Part of it is that the bookstore is the place to go and see what's new. But I think for the middle class, the bookstore is a far more appealing place to just go and hang out. - Steve is older than ever

I think he's wrong--and whether the middle class is comfortable in a library must depend on the library. Here, that's certainly most of the people I see, in a heavily-used, comfortable space. (Then again, I dunno if Livermore has any general-purpose bookstores, so...) I've never been to a public library with "dozens of homeless people milling around the entrance" except one time in Las Vegas (before it opened--I was giving a speech); maybe I've been lucky? - Walt Crawford