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Jeff Jones › Comments
So I asked what system I should buy (PS3 or Xbox 360), but the real question is what do YOU have? What do YOU play?
rowlikeagirl, Loc, Morgan Haley and 10 other people liked this
360 Gamertag: ITBlogger
- Alex Scoble
iPod Touch
- Mistletoe Glen
360 Gamertag: Just So Ninja
- Johnny Worthington
Wii, partly because it was the only way my wife would allow a dedicated video game system into the house. It also has the best library of kid-friendly games.
- Kenton
360 Gamertag: Comster404
- Jay
360, gamertag: Susurrant Echo.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
PS3 more than anything (and it's online is FREE), I'm sure it helped to have the momentum of a PS2 library. 360 and Wii not so much, older systems on occasion. iPhone/iTouch rocks 'cuz you can take it with you.
- LogEx
I have a PS2, Wii and Xbox 360. I play them all.
- Admiral Anika
PC (well, mac... but games on windows)
- mjc
PS3
- Jeremy (cropmarks)
New PS3s don't have much (any?) PS2 backwards compatibility, though, LogEx... And Mike, I have a 360. Want to get a PS3 soon, but haven't yet bothered.
- Andrew C
PS3. Although I spend most of my gaming time on the PC.
- Arlan Koizumi
Andrew, that's why I got the last of the hardware-emulated 60GB models. I don't know why they dropped even software compatibility in later models.
- LogEx
360 Gamertag: Jenn2D2 (I also have and play PS3, Wii, N64, PS2, Gamecube on various occasions.)
- Jennifer Dittrich
So it seems that people are big on the 360. I'm assuming mostly shooters (Halo, CoD, etc)? The games which intrigue me don't really fall in the shooter vein (Assassin's Creed, Fallout, etc)
- Mike Nayyar
PS2. I bought it solely so I could play Guitar Hero. Since then, out of guilt, I've bought an old Madden game, Spiderman, Tetris. Uhm, I can't remember what else. I mostly only play GH. :D
- pea
360: HaggisMac. I have no use for a glorfied BluRay player.
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
PS3
- Amy
@Mike - I'm not big on the FPS games (they give me motion sickness when I play) but I love Katamari, Dragon Age, several of the arcade games, and Rock Band.
- Jennifer Dittrich
Amusingly, I have a 360 and a GameCube... and we still play more GC than anything else. Even my kids, who have a Wii at their Dad's house.
- Ladybug Heather
I don't really do FPS any more, I only play them on the 360 out of boredeom .*whispers* Don't tell my husband, but he was right: FPS are far more superior on a PC.
- Admiral Anika
my wife won a PS3 at the office party last xmas. we never played games on it.
- Joe Silence is not Santa
PS3
- tab thinks you're awesome
@Anika I might love your husband.
- Mike Nayyar
LOL
- Admiral Anika
360 Gamertag: shey05 Wii: 3077 3914 5998 7375
- Shey, Jamaican of FF
I have both but play games on the 360 only
- LANjackal
I have a PS3 & Wii and I also like gaming on my PC. Mostly play FIFA on the PS3 & Wii Sports. I like FPS games on the PC which I don't seem to enjoy using controllers on the consoles. I'm an old mouse & keyboard guy I guess.
- Mark Krynsky
Atari 7800
- April Russo (app103)
360 is still the best system overall, though the prices are probably about the same if you take into account you have to pay for a Gold Membership with the Xbox and probably a wireless adaptor (which comes with the PS3). However, the PS3 is in a much better position now (more good games, better price) and I'm intending to buy one before Xmas.
- Kol Tregaskes
The Wii is just collecting dust for the moment, not enough adult games for it. I fear the Natal will be out before the Wii gets used again.
- Kol Tregaskes
Wii = glorified Fisher Price toy. Shouldn't even be called a console
- LANjackal
from IM
PS3 - BFBC2
- Carlos Ayala
have both, but liking more PS3 just because it has better rpg anime-games.
- Nia
from fftogo
Wii
- RAPatton
from iPhone
Wii and iPhone
- Curtiss Grymala
@Anika just noticed what you posted about what Adrian said and he is absolutely correct about FPSs on a PC.
- Carlos Ayala
PS3: kenshin27, 360: yojironin, Wii: some ridiculously long string of numbers that I couldn't possibly remember. I play mostly the PS3 these days. 360 gathers dust cause I just don't have the time to deal with playing stuff online. Wii is broken out when there are guests who don't want to play GH/RB on the PS3. I do most of my gaming on the iPhone or PSP though. I LOVE the PSP cause it's so easy to play a little, put on sleep, then return to playing where I left off. Just wish they had more games for it. =p
- ronin
Wii and iPhone
- F. Batuhan Icoz
I have a Ps3, xBox 360 Elite and a Wii and play most of my games on... my PC. The Ps3 is for BluRay, the Xbox for Netflix streaming and the Wii for party games.
- Jeff Jones
If you are into blu ray, wouldn't you want a higher-end blu ray player than a PS3? The whole point of blu ray is higher quality, right?
- Cristo
In a side-by-side blind taste test, most people would never be able to tell the difference betwen most Blu-ray players.
- LogEx
+ the PS3 is the reference Blu-Ray player for most reviewers, actually
- LANjackal
from IM
PS3
- Göksel Şirin
I have a full time job and a shitty commute. I don't own or play either. I bought my kid a Wii last year that she seems to like playing from time to time.
- Morgan Haley
LogEx, in a side-by-side test, most people wouldn't be able to tell DVD from blu ray. :)
- Cristo
I wouldn't be surprised, especially on the installed base on TVs.
- LogEx
With a 40+" 1080p TV, if you can't tell the difference you're blind. On any old set, probably not
- LANjackal
from IM
PS3: JamesFerguson (Creative, I know). I also have a Wii. I never thought I'd get a PS3 but I wanted a Blu Ray player so I picked one up. I'm now playing far more video games than I've ever played.
- James Ferguson
PS3: Includes WiFi, free online, Blu-Ray and it's quiet, plus it doesn't look like a toy! You can upgrade the internal HD or even attach an external HD. Also, Sony has upgraded the Blu-Ray drive via firmware to offer more features (BD-Live) :)
- Mark Layton
I have all three. I play NCAA 10 for the 360 and I have NHL 10 and FIFA 10 for the PS3. Debating getting Super Mario Bros for the Wii. I like them all although XBox Live is much better than PSN. ahr19 on both systems.
- Amani
PS3 with upgraded hard drive to 250GB. One of my best purchases of the 2000's. 8^D
- Chieze Okoye
LANjackal, what I mean is the average consumer doesn't care that much. They'll buy a big HD TV and then watch stretched SD TV on it. Some people don't even get HD service. I'd say about 10% or less of people are knowledgeable and care enough to have high fidelity video. Within that group, a fair amount will want the highest quality blu ray (and upscaler) they can get.
- Cristo
+1 on the upgradability of the PS3. Huge plus to owning one
- LANjackal
from IM
= ppl r fucktards. True
- LANjackal
from IM
We have them all. However we play most on the Xbox 360. Why, because I can play with my sister in Rochester and it has more games that we want to play with people and because I'm a achievement whore. Some games are just better on the other platforms, but as a all around good platform for lots of things, its Xbox for us. :)
- Rachel Lea Fox
Cristo, I disagree. If your TV is capable of what a blueray player can produce, even regular DVD's look better played on a blueray player as it boosts they quality of regular video. And blueray disks look amazing!!
- Rachel Lea Fox
Most people don't have a good upscaling BR player though, Rachel. They have something like the PS3...which is not a good upscaling DVD player at all.
- Alex Scoble
What do you mean by "upscaling", Alex? If the output is 1080p and the TV is 1080p, what is there to scale? Also, most decent receivers will upscale lower-res input too
- LANjackal
from IM
I'm talking about DVDs, LANjackal...which in order to be played nicely at 1080p they need to be upscaled. Either by your TV (horrible) or by DVD player (usually less horrible, particularly if you have a good upscaling DVD player).
- Alex Scoble
I think Cristo's right. My cousins have a nice widescreen TV and they were happy to watch stretched SD content on it. Incorrect aspect ratios just kill me, but apparently enough people are OK with them that Food Network HD runs all their old SD content in modified stretchovision.
- Andrew C
^ I've noticed that. Pathetic.
- LANjackal
from IM
Rachel, what are you disagreeing with me about? I didn't say blu ray doesn't look amazing or that upscaling blu ray players don't make DVDs look better. I also didn't say that you didn't see a quality difference. I said 90% of consumers aren't that picky.
- Cristo
i have a ps3 but mainly use it for watching dvds, ps3 games are mostly single player which is a bit annoying
- Loc
I play with my Wii...
- JA Castillo
360 Gamertag: jamar78
- jamar78
Cristo, I think that the difference between SD and HD at least in broadcast is crystal clear (and they do care) to most of the viewing population. DVD --> BD, you might have a point, but I personally think that it's also clear and significant.
- Chieze Okoye
Chieze, while I don't have numbers to back up my assertion, I still think you'll find lots of people that are unaware. I'm talking people walking on the street, not people that are already self-selected by being in Best Buy or talking about A/V systems online. The average consumer is just not that picky. They are more sold on the *idea* of HD TV than the actual fidelity. The thing most people notice is 16:9 vs 4:3.
- Cristo
Chieze - You also have to account for the fact that some of us, while being aware of HDTV (broadcast, cable, satellite), we still don't have the means to use it. While we have a large screen LCD 1080p television, it would cost us a lot of extra money to get HD DirecTV service (I think it's $300 to upgrade our receiver, and another $15 or $20/month extra for the service). It's not that important to me, so I simply watch SD TV on the television. It still looks good.
- Curtiss Grymala
Hmm, good point Curtiss. I guess that's personal preference, because I have Comcast and honestly I can barely look at SDTV broadcasts anymore.
- Chieze Okoye
RT @poniewozik Same reasons "network TV is dying" also give us great cable shows, multiple seasons for FNL, Dollhouse, etc. (But also Leno)
Jérôme Flipo liked this
I'm still ticked at Leno for taking 5 hours of prime time shows away which, almost certainly, led to the cancellation of "Life" which was one of the best dramas on TV. What, in Leno's ego-driven mind, led him to believe that what TV viewers really wanted was more of the same crap they didn't watch at 11:00 at 10:00?
- Jeff Jones
Have you ever disliked an actor enough to actively avoid films he/she is in? (I do with Richard "gerbil" Gere).. Who and why?
anjelina, Rick Cogley, Amber, Random Time Lord and 8 other people liked this
I've come to seriously dislike Rene Zellwiger; I still like some of her earlier films, but her mannerisms (which don't seem to change from film to film) drive me nuts. The only two I can stand are Empire Records and Chigago.
- Jennifer Dittrich
Carrot Top.
- Thomas Hawk
I have TONS of them: Julia Roberts, Tom Hanks, Mel Gibson, Tom Cruise, Robin Williams, Rene Zellwiger (though I did watch Shark's Tale), Woody Allen, Meryl Streep, Scarlet Johannson, Tyler Perry. My list goes on, but this explains why I mostly watch foreign movies. LOL
- Admiral Anika
Julia Roberts (*fist bump Anika*), Sally Field, Matthew "I can't stand without assistance" Mcconaughey (except Dazed and Confused), Katherine Heigl.. probably more, but those are the first that pop into mind.
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
Steve Buscemi because he was that creepy, creepy guy in Con Air and ever since then, he is just too creepy to watch.
- Rochelle
tom cruise = annoying
- Neil Bernhart
Kevin Costner. He drives me up the wall and back again.
- Shannon Jiménez
Robin Williams, he's not funny, acts like a child 99% of the time and any movie he's in generally makes me want to vomit. I'd also say anything with Pauly Shore, but nobody would willingly watch anything of his, so he probably doesn't count.
- Ace
Costner's another one. I'd also like to add Any Rapper. With the exception of Friday and Any Given Sunday, rappers should just not ever act. Mos Def, I'm looking at you.
- Admiral Anika
Zac Effron. Becuase of High School Musical.....
- Roberto Bonini
My sister can not stand Will Farrell. Which amuses *me* because his movies totally fit in with her humor from when we were kids. She won't watch them.
- Admiral Anika
Jim Carey. I hate him.
- Trish R
*fistbump* Trish. The only movie I've seen of his is Dumb and Dumber.
- Admiral Anika
Megan Fox annoys the piss out of me these days. Can't stand Jim Carey either.
- Suburban Oblivion
Hugh Grant - That git and his cuter than cute English mannerisms seriously gets my back up!
- Paul OFlaherty
Larry the Cable Guy
- Rodfather
Renee Zellwegger. Because she's *squinty* and always looks like she just smelled a particularly stinky fart.
- cecily
Jim Carrey
- holly
Oh, and Tyler Perry, but there isn't enough room in this text box to explain why.
- cecily
Tom Cruise movies are painful due to his personal craziness.
- LogEx
Nicholas Cage. Except for Raising Arizona & Moonstruck, I'll pretty much avoid any movie he's in simply because he's in it.
- josh neff, geek at large
Angelina Jolie. Not sure why. Too plastic or something.
- Gus
For those who (think they) hate Jim Carrey, I'd suggest watching Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (with an open mind).
- LogEx
Yeah, Tom Cruise is about the biggest one for me.
- Alex Scoble
@The Swisher Sweet of FF What did Morpheous.. er .. Laurence Fishburn do? How was he rude?? Good story?
- Paul OFlaherty
tom cruise - he sucks
- William Harryman
Katie Holmes. If I do get stuck watching her, I usually make fun of her a lot. Oh and I have a lot who I avoid a certain genre with or I avoid their recent stuff. Like Jim Carey or Adam Sandler. I will watch them in something serious/drama or old stuff before they are know, but I avoid the more recent comedies where they are just playing the same annoying character in a different movie.
- Rachel Lea Fox
Jim Carrey and Will Ferrell although Carrey was brilliant in Eternal Sunshine. He desperately needs a director who will seriously reign him in but so rarely gets one.
- Jeff Jones
Hugh Grant. Rob Schneider.
- Fred Yankowski
Dane Cook. I'll walk out if he appears in a movie trailer.
- vicster needs a nap
LogEx, totally agree with you there. When I saw Eternal Sunshine I realised that Carrey doesn't 'just do funny', completely changed my view of him.
- Charlotte M
could be nicholas cage. by the way, I think Tom Cruise was really great in Valkyrie.
- Halit Okumus
As critical as I am with my film habit, surpsingly the answer is no. I will however purposely try to avoid crappy filmmaking regardless who's in it.
- Pete Delucchi
from iPhone
Renee Zellwegger and Drew Barrymore, I just can't stand them. Renee I can never watch. Drew, sometimes, depending who's are the other stars.
- Alejandro
Wow. That seems like just about everyone.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
@Paul OFlaherty We were crossing over into Columbus Circle at the same time. I smiled at him and he gave me the dirtiest look I have yet to tolerate. I won't pay a cent to see a Laurence Fishburn movie.
- nakachi
Adam Sandler. Steve Carrell. Nicholas Cage. After a couple of viewings of their stuff, I just started to avoid them. Plenty of other good stuff out there.
- Rick Cogley
jamie lee curtis--> I really dont know why the aversion since she is great actress?
- anjelina
Alec Baldwin. Throw up just thinking about him.
- Deborah Fisher
Patrick Swayze. There, I said it. Deal.
- Kevin Pedraja
I have to agree with Pete. It's more about the filmaking than the actors. There are directors I won't watch but not actors.
- Jason Williams
from iPhone
Matthew McConaghey if only because he doesn't act, he's just "that guy." I'd love to cast him as the lead in Richard the Third. Just to see if he could do it.
- Greg
Arnold Schwarzenegger. (& please, don't say anything bad about Steve Buscemi, Rochelle; he was the 1st about-to-be-famous actors I shook hands with, just after he acted in his star role in 'In the Soup') (he was my hero) (my anti-hero, so to speak)(I still have to wash my right hand after all these years).
- Ton Zijp
A Fading Champ, But A Champ Still: Muhammad Ali : NPR - http://www.npr.org/templat...
Red Label, Parth Awasthi, vicster needs a nap and 8 other people liked this
"Muhammad Ali flew to England last week, there to make appearances in soccer stadiums. He said it would probably be his "last time" in the U.K. He can barely move on his own now. One London newspaper called Ali, who was once "a butterfly," "little more than a zombie." And a great many people find it as upsetting as it is sad that the old champ continues to make personal appearances."
- Anna Haro
from Bookmarklet
"Maybe it would've been best if our last image of him had been in '96, when he suddenly appeared out of nowhere and — already shaking terribly from Parkinson's — still managed to light the Olympic flame. There was a nobility to that scene, as if once more he'd gotten off the canvas, managed somehow to win another fight. But Ali wouldn't retire from the ring when he should have, and now he refuses to comfort us and slip away from public view."
- Anna Haro
"Perhaps there's a bolder statement in that, that the man who once so immodestly enjoyed standing before us — the laird of his realm, proclaiming his beauty to the heavens — is now unafraid to let us see him when his great body is slumped, in shambles. Even as boxing, as a sport, fades to the fringes, Muhammad Ali still retains some kind of hold on us. If he yet wants to present his present, lesser self to us, it is not for us to feel pity for him."
- Anna Haro
I agree with that last paragraph. There should be no shame in aging and certainly none in aging with a debilitating disease. Why, just because others hold onto some mightier-than-thou image, should anyone have to always live-up to that image. Additionally, because of his fame, he has the ability to bring attention to Parkinson's which might benefit their funding.
- ·[▪_▪]·
+botman
- Anna Haro
Anyone who thinks that Ali lessens his "image" by appearing in public now does not understand what dignity really is.
- Jeff Jones
Texas Executed Innocent Man - http://politicalwire.com/archive...
Likely not the first. Likely not the last. The death penalty is barbaric, ineffective and expensive and is applied in an unfair manner. We are alone in industrialized, first-world countries in keeping this practice and it needs to end now.
- Jeff Jones
Kol Tregaskes to Kol's feed, Flickr Central, Flickr Photography, Photography United, DSLR, Question of the Day
What is your flickr URL? I'm here: http://www.flickr.com/photos...
Mattb4rd, ChaCha Fance, Irma Vermaat and 103 other people liked this
Feel free to add me. Don't forget about the Flickr Photography group here: http://friendfeed.com/flickr-... And there is also a FriendFeed Flickr group here: http://www.flickr.com/groups... #whatsyoururl
- Kol Tregaskes
سلتون تو دوباره پریدی وسط بحث یه عده بزرگتر؟ :)))))
- I /-\li
http://www.flickr.com/photos... please require to be added to see my photos :D
- Valentina De Santis
I'm subbing everyone as I go. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
I can't believe who I've missed here, thanks for the links! :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
http://www.flickr.com/photos... Not much activity lately, thou.
- Marcos
Andy, 2? That's just greedy, hehe. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
That is what a homepage is for. You can reach mine through the link in my profile.
- Peter
Kol, once again, thanks for helping us all connect. There are some great photographers on FF.
- Kevin Pedraja
Now that I'm going through and adding all of these people I'm discovering that Flickr needs a grouping functionality for contacts.
- Kenton
I don't need to mention it here. You can just mouse over me to find out. The power of FriendFeed.
- Nick B.
Wow, Nick. Way to play along.
- Rochelle
John Piercy -http://www.flickr.com/photos...
- johnpiercy
I looked at at least two pages of every user who posted. I just started learning, so I bookmarked about 20 pages that I'll be coming back to. This was nice, thanks!
- Ryan Massie
Feel free to add me: http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Milton Ramirez
- Milton Ramirez
Kol, I listed my url earlier but feel free to add me as a contact (http://www.flickr.com/photos...)
- Johnny
A great thread. I do believe that I have subscribed to ya'll. :-)
- Mathew A. Koeneker
http://www.flickr.com/photos... awesome thread! will have to check everyone out [I work there]
- Criz
http://www.flickr.com/photos... Have a nice day!
- Gabcsi
http://www.flickr.com/photos... i am here :)
- Mahdi Ebrahimi
http://flickr.com/photos... (NSFW if you have safesearch turned off)
- Michael Hocter
http://www.flickr.com/photos... . The quality of my stream varies depending on inspiration, if you're browsing I suggest my 25 most interesting images: http://www.flickr.com/photos... and my personal favorites: http://www.flickr.com/photos...
- Niklas Morberg
http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Bengi Gencer
- bengi gençer
Http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaymeephoto
- Chad McCoskey
from iPhone
Thanks for all the links! I'll be going through them all today. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Thanks guys! :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Keep 'em coming. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
just realized ,, ive been missing out on some awesome photographs .. AWESOME thread
- johnpiercy
:-)
- Kol Tregaskes
wow, thats a lot of flickrs LOL well, thanks to you I went to flickr and set up my url.. I was amazed this was available http://www.flickr.com/photos...
- David Gross
Thank you all! :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
http://www.flickr.com/photos... Awesome!
- ★ Soner Gönül
Couldn't find the page, Soner.
- Kol Tregaskes
I just went pro :D http://www.flickr.com/photos...
- MλTT
Cool. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Thanks.
- Kol Tregaskes
Thank you everyone! :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Thank you. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
G Dan Mitchell: http://www.flickr.com/photos...
- G Dan Mitchell
Great shots, G. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Thank you.
- Kol Tregaskes
Keep 'em coming, I'll add you all later today. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
/micahwittman
- Micah Wittman
http://www.flickr.com/photos... DavidePatti
- Davide Patti
Thank you all!
- Kol Tregaskes
Thank you.
- Kol Tregaskes
http:///www... - I haven't updated it, photo-wise for a long time, since I was getting dangerously close to exceeding the 200 item limit.
- Tyson Key
Thank you.
- Kol Tregaskes
This is me: flickr.com/photos/vestigialconsciousness/
- Parth Awasthi
http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Peter Mutuma
- Peter Mutuma
there are some great pictures in this list!
- Chris Rogers
White House Draws Fire for Requesting 'Fishy’ Information From Supporters on Health Reform - Political News - FOXNews.com - http://www.foxnews.com/politic...
Владимир, Nispell and Christopher Harley liked this
"The White House is under fire for a blog post asking supporters to send "fishy" information received through rumors, chain e-mails and casual conversations to a White House e-mail address, flag@whitehouse.gov. Conservatives have pounced on the request, accusing the White House of acting Orwellian. "If you get an e-mail from your neighbor and it doesn't sound right, send it to the White House?"said Sen. John Barasso, R-Wyo. " People, I think all across America are going to say is this 1984? What is happening here? Is big brother watching?" Radio host Rush Limbaugh accused the White House of using heavy-handed tactics. "They're looking for tattletales,"he said. "They're looking for snitches. They're looking for informants." Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, charged the White House with compiling an "enemies list."In a letter to the president, Cornyn urged Obama to provide Congress with more details on what the White House plans to do with anyone reported for "fishy"speech. "I am not aware of...
more...
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
There should be an app for that! I mean who doesn't want to guide the conversation these days? This is the executive branch managing their brand, right?
- Christopher Harley
from iPhone
Oh for gosh sakes... if you read the whole thing they are not asking for contact info or even email address of the people who send this sort of misinformation. They just want the stuff being said so they can respond if necessary. Is there anything more paranoid and loony that an out of power conservative?
- Jeff Jones
Strangely, "happy hour" at Double Coffee in Vilnius starts at 8 pm. Why not at 4-5 pm, like in the US? Regardless, their margaritas are good
Heh.. that's a long way to go for a margarita.
- Jeff Jones
Putting Miley Cyrus’ face on a naked body ends in arrest - http://www.inquisitr.com/27398...
 |
Travis Koger, Angus Burton and Paul Buchheit liked this
As our society slowly descends into totalitarianism.
- Cristo
The guy may be a creep but this is lunacy.
- Jeff Jones
When did people other than assassins and serial killers start being referred to by their full names?
- Andy Bakun
what are you drinking meme:http://friendfeed.com/wilw...
Dobromir Hadzhiev, Benjamin Taylor, Steven Perez and 26 other people liked this
water
- anna sauce
I would continue the coffee love but work has cut corners and there's no milk. Criminal.
- anna sauce
anna is losing at beer pong!
- Geoff Schultz
and that is totally OK.
- anna sauce
Iced unsweetened green tea :) Perfect on such a hot day
- martha
raspberry lime seltzer.
- B. Hatin
Corona
- Brian Sullivan
PBR
- Jim Halligan @jim
Jim's old school real people.
- anna sauce
Sweet tea.
- Ayşe E.
what angrykeyboarder™ (Scott) said
- Josh Haley
Water now, but I had a Sunkist earlier. First in years!
- CAJ, somewhere else
Nothing at the moment, but I'm going to a friends liquor store on my way home. Tequila!
- Jason Huebel
bought milk at lunch- back to coffee
- anna sauce
water. :)
- Alix Whitmire
So cute.
- Mona Nomura
Clamato spicy. Nom
- Kamath (नमः)
Diet Dr. Pepper or, as it is also known, liquid mana from the gods.
- Jeff Jones
Let's stop calling any instance of anything a "meme," meme...
- Christopher A Carr
Iced tea
- Brent - Loving Life
Christopher, I'm betting anna wanted folks to take pictures of what they were drinking. Apparently, that didn't happpen. :)
- CAJ, somewhere else
Ah, that makes a bit more sense.
- Christopher A Carr
Yeah, well, it's OK with me. I try, and fail, and fail dying or die failing.
- anna sauce
Back to water. it's a game I play all day. back and forth.
- anna sauce
loads of water
- Joe Silence is not Santa
Whole Foods sparkling water
- Peter Ghosh
Vodka and Orange Pop
- Matthew DeVries
I could be drinking anything i this photo. ANYTHING.
- anna sauce
tea
- Amber, Random Time Lord
Which horrible accidentally drinking something scene in the American Pie movies are you pushing us to anna?
- Matthew DeVries
Ok, admission: I have not seen American Pie.
- anna sauce
that's actually something to be proud of.
- Jim Is Not Smart
Really? I don't have a longing to see it, but if it was on somewhere, and I was bored, I'd watch it.
- anna sauce
You don't want to watch it on non-pay cable or regular TV. It definately will lose goodness with TV editing, hell, it may be impossible to understand and be 4 minutes long.
- Matthew DeVries
Sotol Repasado: http://friendfeed.com/jhuebel...
- Jason Huebel
Harpoon Brown Ale
- Rodzilla
Nothing right now. OH NOES!!
- Chrimmus Tad
Dole Pina Colada juice (coconut & pineapple). Yum!
- Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)
Coffee. Too much.
- Thierry R. Andriamirado
now onto hot cocoa
- anna sauce
Shiraz
- Meg v. Meg v. 1.0.0.1
cherry limeade and vodka
- holly
Technically speaking you are not drinking in this photo. You are just hiding behind your red cup :)
- Baard @ Pixum
OK you found me out
- anna sauce
cofeee
- Dobromir Hadzhiev
Coffee and Water
- Reed Porter
North by Northweird: James Wolcott | Vanity Fair - http://www.vanityfair.com/online...
Lars Clausen, Sean McBride, Ladybug Heather and 3 other people liked this
"Perhaps, like Cary Grant in Hitchcock's North by Northwest, AWOL South Carolina Mark Sanford is the victim of a mistaken-identity abduction conducted by enemy agents. But if the Gov boarded a plane of his own volition, his partaking of in-flight peanuts and movie headsets will call into question the sincerity of his Vision Quest. And Sanford's wife is quoted as saying that she hasn't heard from her husband and is busy "taking care of my children." Note: My children, not our children. A possessive pronoun that might signify an emotional firewall being built or already constructed. I will be passing through a couple of airports tomorrow and if I spot Governor Sanford I will be sure to race to the nearest computer terminal to report my sighting in this nailbiting suspense drama."
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
from Bookmarklet
I noticed that possessive pronoun, too. It's significant. And I'm sorry, my partner is not gone for 2 hours *during the work day* w/o my knowing where he is. There is no chance on earth he'd be gone for an entire day w/o my knowing and I would profess not to be worried. Shenanigans. The truth will out.
- Ayşe E.
I wouldn't bat an eye to see someone with few attachments disappear for a few days, but not a state governor with a wife and kids.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Rumors are now that a SC state-owned car was found in an Atlanta airport parking lot, presumably indicating that he drove there to fly. This is definitely the best summer GOP weird scandal I can remember...
- Andrew C
Definitely the weirdest. I mean, how often does a governor just disappear?
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Alright, this made me laugh: "I've been thinking about it, and I believe Sanford may be the first politician to use the "I'm leaving to spend some time AWAY FROM my family" excuse." http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archive...
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Points to John for linking to James Wolcott.
- Sean McBride
I've liked Wolcott's writing for a long time.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Heard, too, that someone saw him get on a plane last week. Ye olde plot thickeneth.
- Ayşe E.
In Atlanta, no less!
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
I just love the modern GOP. Keep it up Repubs!!!
- Jeff Jones
Flickr to Overhaul Popular “Explore” Page, Will the Magic Donkey Be Shot in the Head? - http://thomashawk.com/2009...
 |
Nathalie, Dreamer of FF, Holger Eilhard, RAPatton and 17 other people liked this
In a move sure to upset many long-standing flickr veterans as well as to possibly please many newer users, Flickr is currently in the process of a major overhaul to their popular Explore page where they showcase and feature 500 photos each day. The Explore page was started back in 2005 by Flickr as a place to showcase some of what Flickr considers, “the most awesome content on Flickr.” Flickr has continuously referred to a “magic donkey” at Flickr that selects the images that are included each day.
- Thomas Hawk
Interesting. (Pun not intended). I'd always assumed they tweak the algorithm regularly, but it sounds like this a major overhaul to the page itself? I'd agree it's overdue - there are a handful of users who are just too good at gaming it, and it's long suffered from a bias towards some very generic subjects and styles (girls, flowers, sunsets and the like). Personally I always just got...
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- Eric P
The Explore page has puzzled me from the start. Looking forward to the overhaul.
- Kol Tregaskes
I've always hated what pictures come up for explore... a few good images, but mostly they seem to be oversaturated, cheesy lit portraits and landscapes, hot girls (same as on every photo magazine), cute animals.
- Paula W
Heh. take a HDR picture of a hot girl holding a flower in one hand and a baby kitten in the other with an over saturated deep red sunset for the backdrop, and add some scratchy texture with Photoshop. Guaranteed explore fodder.
- Eric P
Eric's figured out the formula.
- Thomas Hawk
I'm curious. Do you get a notification when you have a photo on the Explorer page? Or do you just see the trafic kick up and assume that's what's going on?
- ChiliMac
You'll notice if you hit the front page of Explore (which shows any of the top 10, I think) - you'll get a ton of views and faves and new contacts while it's there. Positions 11-500, you probably won't know unless you check Scout on FD's Flickr toys (which also has a the definitive FAQ on the subject).
- Eric P
Hehe, Eric. Will give it a go. ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
been paying for flickr for 3 years, had NO IDEA this page existed...
- Jeremy Toeman
Jeremy - my guess is you use the service very differently then others.
- Justin Korn
You can put your or any other flickr user's name in here and see all your/their photos in explore: http://bighugelabs.com/flickr...
- Thomas Hawk
Oh wow, I've been explored 3 times. I had no idea. huh.
- EricaJoy
I have disliked the Explore page so much, that I have all together stop looking at it or even caring whether or not I got there. I do my art for me, and only me. If other enjoy it, well, I feel that much better, but I have never felt that I had to be told that I was good by being placed on some list by a machine.
- Wizetux
I've been a flickr member since 2005 and I have never understood explore. It's incredibly baffling to me. I can't wait to see if they make it better or f#$% it up more!
- Rachel Lea Fox
Rachel, it's basically just activity around your photos. If you get a much higher than average amount of activity on a photo of yours it sort of throws it into a pool. So if lets say your average photo gets one fave and one comment and then all of a sudden one of your photos gets 10 faves and 10 comments, this tells flickr's algorithm that it might be interesting to other people. That's an oversimplification of the algorithm for sure as theres more that goes into it, but that's the basic idea.
- Thomas Hawk
I've never had a photo hit the Explore page... I'll have to start following Eric's advice. :-P
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
it's by no means what are great photos. Think of it more as what are popular photos.
- Thomas Hawk
I can honestly say I never look at it, I look at the geotagged photo pages more often
- clarke thomas
I had no idea I had been on the Explore page. Just once, but I was on it. :)
- Jeff Jones
David Letterman teaches us all how to do an apology. Good show Dave! - http://www.tvweek.com/blogs...
Daniel Rowley, Dave Martin, Jason Pollock and 28 other people liked this
Between the insanity and outrage that is Letterman/Palin and DePass/Michelle Obama, it is amazing that our government is actually working to progress our country forward in any meaningful way. Oh wait, maybe our government isn't doing that so much. Bill Maher definitely said it best this week.
- Joel Marcey
David didn't teach anyone how to do an apology. If he really did then he would have made an apology right away. Not 1 week after the fact under intense pressure.
- Gavin
You're kidding right Robert?
- Ed Shahzade /NextInstinct
Gavin: if you are forced to do an apology, this is how to do it. Ed, no, I'm not. It was a good apology. Why wasn't it, other than it took a week?
- Robert Scoble
Robert: He obviously isn't sorry because then he wouldn't have made a mock apology the next night and then a week later made a "sincere" apology.
- Gavin
He didn't need to apologize, but of course, that's politics.
- Dean Clark
I agree, the apology was good and sincere. However, people took it the wrong way from the start and should have trusted his description of it not being about the 14 y/o. It's weak to attack him about it - shows a lack of imagination from those attacking him... Many better things to go after :)
- Sol Young
Dean: Of course he needed to apologize. His comments were distasteful and rude. If this was a show on FOX News everyone would be freaking out. But since its Letterman anything goes. His joke was disgusting!
- Gavin
Gavin: most people who apologize are doing it because they are forced to. I remember saying "fuck" in class when I was in kindergarten. I was forced to apologize. I wasn't sorry. What did I do? I said "I'm sorry for saying fuck the other day." The teacher learned a lesson about that and so did I. There's a good way to apologize and a bad way.
- Robert Scoble
Love her or HATE her, this was a lude, tired old insult at one's children. She's long out of the race. This personal. He hedged. And the writer of the article hedged even more. Can you imagine someone with 2,000,000 twitter followers ripping your [lovely, classy] wife?
- Ed Shahzade /NextInstinct
People say things, they think about what they said sometimes, some laugh, say it louder, some say I was wrong...good for him. It takes strength to apologize no matter who you are!
- Myrna
Robert: I wouldn't called an insincere apology a good apology. And definitely not after giving a mock apology first and then a "sincere" apology.
- Gavin
And I don't care about Palin other than that she's human. In fact she rubs me the very wrong way.
- Myrna
Ed: people make mistakes and if I were in front of TV cameras every evening I would make many many more mistakes.
- Robert Scoble
Myrna: Would you want someone making sexually explicit jokes about your 14-year old daughter?
- Gavin
I agree, Robert. He should've done it earlier. And, whether or not you (not you, personally, Robert) like Sarah Palin isn't the issue. Remember when NBC Correspondent David Shuster joked about the Clinton's "Pimping Out" Chelsea? Hillary responded aggressively and Shuster was forced to apologize. So there is precedent on something like this.
- Curt Mercadante
Gavin: sometimes it takes a week for people to see the real harm they did. It was clear he wasn't talking about the 14-year-old, or at least he didn't think he was. The fact that he took a week to understand just how bad the perception of that was, is fine with me. It takes me a while for things to sink in too and for me to get the perspective I need to figure out I was wrong when I am.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I don't believe it took a week for it to sink in, he made fun of it the next day. When I first heard the jokes it wasn't clear to me that the jokes were aimed at Bristol.
- Gavin
Letterman's apology was an apology, which is more than you get from most public persons these days, "i am sorry if i offended anyone" is not an apology, it is a pretend apology. Letterman said, " Well, my responsibility - I take full blame for that. I told a bad joke.....So I would like to apologize, especially to the two daughters involved, Bristol and Willow, and also to the Governor...
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- Nathan Eckenrode
Nathan: That's just smart PR.
- Gavin
Gavin, of course I wouldn't like it and not about my son either.
- Myrna
Myrna: So why are supporting Dave then?
- Gavin
Gavin. doing the right thing is smart PR, but it is also doing the right thing.
- Nathan Eckenrode
Gavin: because Dave apologized for being a jerk. The fact that you can't accept his apology says more about you than it says about Letterman.
- Robert Scoble
This whole situation is incredibly stupid and the mere fact that it has stirred up so much attention/controversy demonstrates how easily distracted our society can get. There are much bigger issues to tackle here, folks. This is DUMB.
- Andy
Letterman was stupid. Palin's response was somewhat of a PR blunder. But the way some people have criticized Palin over this has a bit of a double-standard given the history of how people reacted to the Shuster-Chelsea Clinton remark. Imagine if Letterman had made the same joke about one of the Obama daughters while they were in NYC. All hell would've broken loose. Just a stupid situation. Made for the tabloids and, in the end, probably boosted Letterman's ratings. That being said, I agree with Robert.
- Curt Mercadante
Nathan: bing!
- Robert Scoble
The bigger issue here is the media and how they have an extreme anti-right bias!
- Gavin
Andy: double bing! Personally I didn't know about the whole Letterman/Palin thing before I read the apology. I just liked the apology. It was perfectly done. If you are ever in the place where you need to give an apology for whatever reason you should come back here and study this piece by Letterman.
- Robert Scoble
Agreed Robert. I make mistakes all the time. But I heartily subscribe to @BlairWarren's thesis: "An apology that is not made with the same level of enthusiasm as was the transgression is not an apology at all; it's an insult."
- Ed Shahzade /NextInstinct
Remember, people, that David Letterman is a comedian. It is his job to work on the edge of culture and society and press our buttons with social commentary. He's an artist. Do we ask playwrights to apologize for plays? Novelists to apologize for their books? Musicians to apologize for their scores? This doesn't mean we can't give comedians a rough time for things they say (it's a way society makes boundaries), but we need to remember that it's that its their job to make us uncomfortable.
- Jason Miller
Gavin, I'm supporting the fact that he apologized especially if he can't stand her. Those are the times that apologies are the hardest. Try apologizing to someone who rubs you the wrong way. Lol, that's real growth imo.
- Myrna
It's astounding to me how many of you insist on blaming Palin for this.
- Mistletoe Glen
Ed: well, the audience applauded three times, so I'm pretty sure this played pretty well when he gave it. Jason: plus Letterman doesn't write his own jokes. That said, he screwed up by not knowing how this one would play to the audience. He knew he was playing with fire because he researched the age of the kid. Myrna: exactly.
- Robert Scoble
Hmph- go figure - I emailed Dave & CBS last week and suggested he apologize . Was right thing to do. Unusual to applaud CBS but I do today
- Crystal Clear
Glen: who is blaming Palin here? She isn't even part of the post here. I was focusing specifically on Letterman's apology which was ALL ABOUT HIM.
- Robert Scoble
Jason - yes, but Imus was a comedian, too. Fired. I don't think Imus should've been fired. I don't think Letterman should be fired. I've heard worse jokes. Palin was right to be pissed. People are correct to note a double standard here. Case closed. If we called for everyone to be fired who made a lude remarks, none of us would have jobs. I certainly wouldn't. I'm not particularly a Letterman fan (Conan is way better), but I can just choose not to watch him and move on with my day.
- Curt Mercadante
Glen: Oh, I see a couple of people talking about Palin and how she's using this for political gain. Yeah, so that probably is true too.
- Robert Scoble
Sarah Palin will ALWAYS look like a deer staring into the headlights to me. She was in over head. What a slap in the face to intelligent women from either party. Were the republicans trying to win? I don't think that Ms.Palin would even know that she was being apologized to
- Chris White
Heh, what's funny about this whole thread is I had no idea it would cause such a conversation and go into whether Palin was a good choice or not. We covered that enough last November and here I just wanted to talk about the fact that this was a good apology and it's one that, if I'm ever in need of an apology, I will look back on.
- Robert Scoble
Chris: are you the Chris White who used to hang out here and who deleted his friendfeed account?
- Robert Scoble
Chris - whether or not you like or dislike Sarah Palin has little to do with this post. I'm not particularly a fan of Obama, but would ABSOLUTELY think a similar remark about his daughters was stupid and lude. I thought David Shuster's remark about Chelsea was stupid and lude. I thought Letterman's remark was stupid and lude. That's consistency.
- Curt Mercadante
there is a really salient point in Letterman's apology about the perception being greater than the intent, and perhaps Sarah Palin herself suffers from being on the wrong end of the perceptions of the American people, but she hasn't really taken any actions that will change that perception.
- Nathan Eckenrode
Curt: exactly. I actually resent Chris' attempt to take this back into political bickering. Let's focus on the apology and whether or not it was good. I think it was good, and I can see the point of several people here that it was late. Anything else? Onward...
- Robert Scoble
Letterman lost me a long time ago. Politics aside. Entirely over-rated ... NOT funny?
- Charlie Anzman
But Robert, I liked what Chris said because I'm always wondering every time I hear her speak, what do they find intelligent, interesting or anything about that woman especially as a role model in any way.
- Myrna
Myrna: yeah, but that should be discussed in a separate thread. This one is all about Dave's apology and whether or not it was good.
- Robert Scoble
Good has certain criteria for me, this one doesn't cut it because it was forced, he "had" to apologize. It was good if you look at the content. I think it was borderline tongue in cheek. Many suggested, the way it was worded, he thought the remarks, if made about the older daughter, would have been appropriate.
- Sal DiStefano
i think that the timing of the apology came at the point where Letterman realized the actual harm he had committed, and then he sought to make immediate amends, not only with his sponsors but with the very people his comments hurt.
- Nathan Eckenrode
You're right Robert. .I'm finished..said my piece..on to Iran..
- Myrna
Sal: name one apology that wasn't "forced." People don't apologize unless they are caught at something.
- Robert Scoble
It is good that he FINALLY gave an appropriate apology. This is something he should have done at his first attempt of an apology. It's too bad though that he only realized what effects his jokes can have after he saw it being discussed on a nationwide news show and after a sponsor allegedly threatened to pull ads on his show.
- Mark Powell
Oh Robert, I apologize if I offend someone and don't usually wait for someone to 'catch' me. But I'm a female lol
- Myrna
Hey, I hear a lot of judgment on this thread. Do you?
- Myrna
Myrna: if you offended someone you got caught. Otherwise how would you know you offended them?
- Robert Scoble
I know if sometimes I go over the line before I close my mouth. Sometimes I think things and speak to fast.
- Myrna
Intuition
- Myrna
Myrna: yeah, that's one kind of getting caught. The voices in our own heads sometimes are our strongest critics, huh?
- Robert Scoble
is not intuition developed through practice and studying the mistakes of the past? :-)
- Nathan Eckenrode
Hmmm Nathan yes through practice but it comes from inside me not from studying anything.
- Myrna
Robert: I disagree with the idea that everyone is forced to apologize. When someone realizes they have gone too far or crossed a line, they can choose to apologize. I just don't think he thought it was over the line. I do think he was referring to the older daughter. I think he thought she was fair game. I think there was some network pressure on him to do the apology.
- Sal DiStefano
Robert, remember I told you a certain time and I was late? I felt 'not good' to say the least. I kind of apologized didn't I, if you remember.
- Myrna
Here's the beauty of America - as opposed to what our brethren in Iran are experiencing right now. If you don't like Palin, change the channel. If you don't like Letterman, watch Conan. If you don't like Fox News, watch CNN. And on and on and on.
- Curt Mercadante
Hey, don't we ever feel guilty? So that's part of intuition talking.
- Myrna
right that is what i mean from inside of you, you can study memories of the past and how you felt when others did this that or the other thing and if you find yourself modeling one of the behaviors which made you feel in a bad way, your intuition reminds you that there is a line that you are about to cross or have crossed and even if another person does not catch you, you have caught your own actions and you are forced to apologize. am i off base here, have i over analyzed or am i close?
- Nathan Eckenrode
Ok let me get this straight this whole conversation is about whether a apology was sincere and whether the timing was also sincere, am I right.
- Kim Landwehr
I think Robert brought up a good point which is, if you don't get caught, is there an apology. I think there can be. I have apologized to someone for something I said, which I thought might have offended them and they actually had no problem with it. So was the apology for them or myself?
- Sal DiStefano
Kim perhaps it can be limited to those grounds, but it seems that there is sufficient area for this conversation to dig deeper into a greater realm than just the pop culture reference which initiated it.
- Nathan Eckenrode
Mostly for yourself and a little for them Sal. When you apologize to some one you are disarming yourself and people feel closer.to you or they accept you or what you said, They love you! Unless you are an over apologizer.
- Myrna
Just thinking that this entire discussion threat is the reason FriendFeed is so much better than Twitter.
- Curt Mercadante
Sal: it was for the voices in your head that told you you were being a jerk. Kim: I'm just shocked that a stupid tweet kicked off such a conversation. Heheh.
- Robert Scoble
Nathan, its a feeling inside. I don't know where it comes from. I'm not linear. I don't study.
- Myrna
ah yes the Over Apologizer, drops "I'm sorry" into every open hat but never changes behavior.
- Nathan Eckenrode
Nathan, how about conscience..that sounds good.
- Myrna
It's those damn voices in my head!!! ;-)
- Sal DiStefano
Myrna: i do not think that the development of intuition is something which occurs with a great deal of forethought and linear planning.
- Nathan Eckenrode
Haha they're discussing this on Keith Olbermann right now.
- Myrna
That was kind of my point, Robert, although I probably said it badly, it is just weird what can start a long thread, you never know
- Kim Landwehr
We should start talking to twitter people about coming to FF about Iran in case twitter crashes. They get so scared. They're so addicted. They don't know they have a choice. I know Robert, this is off subject but I know you love this topic.
- Myrna
Myrna: friendfeed is a lot closer to a talk show than most people realize. Kim, yeah, it is weird, huh? A piece of software running on my machine just posted a Word doc icon to my friendfeed. It got some comments too. Wacky! Myrna: I've been trying for 16 months to get people over here, it's not easy.
- Robert Scoble
I was proposing a conjecture(ooh ooh special word of the day!!!) about what happens on atomic/spiritual/brain chemistry level to create the mechanism of intuition
- Nathan Eckenrode
Myrna - I agree. It's taken me a long time to "see the light" ... mostly because most of my network is only on Twitter but only uses FF as a Twitterfeed. But the key point is that FF allows you to have these discussions in real-time right on the same screen without having to use a third-party app. or client. Don't need hashtags here....
- Curt Mercadante
Nathan, let's say intuition is beyond our 5 senses.
- Myrna
Yes Curt..if they only knew...
- Myrna
i agree with you completely Myrna
- Nathan Eckenrode
Well, I remember when a friend kept telling me to stop with fb and use FF. It was beyond me. That was then, this is now. It takes time for people to change/understand/grow.
- Myrna
Myrna: our brains are awesome pattern recognizers. How those patterns get put in our head we are not able to explain. Think about everything you see and how quickly you are able to recognize it. The glass on your table. Your monitor. Your printer. These are very difficult things for a computer, even the world's biggest ones, to do. Yet you can't explain how you learned all that. I see it with my baby son and how he learns. It's amazing and humbling.
- Robert Scoble
Yup
- Myrna
Robert is it is exactly because of my children that I have been able to see how the brain works on the everyday things that we take for granted at this stage.
- Nathan Eckenrode
Letterman apology - great example! [edited: deleted silly inside joke]
- Jannifer @wordsforliving
I agree with this post, "This whole situation is incredibly stupid and the mere fact that it has stirred up so much attention/controversy demonstrates how easily distracted our society can get. There are much bigger issues to tackle here, folks. This is DUMB. - Andy"
- BEX
What do you mean Jannifer?
- Myrna
His first 'apology' was a backhanded addition to the joke's originally unintentional error. I don't care whose daughter it was, he stated "Did I suggest that it was OK for her 14-year-old daughter to be having promiscuous sex? No." Seriously? This was the reaction to screwing up with a Palin joke about a kid getting knocked up in the midst of a ball game, like the slap-happiest slut of...
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- Jon Osterholm
Per Myrna's post, I'd still like to know what Jennifer meant.
- Curt Mercadante
Oh Myma / Curt - nothing - it was an inside joke - disregard!
- Jannifer @wordsforliving
Oh Sheesh.. no wonder this country is so fucked up with comments like this.... When someone says the words "knocked up" and "sarah Palin's Daughter" in the same sentence NO ONE but right wing nut jobs thinks the daughter in question is the 14 year old. The joke was about Bristol, Palin knows it, EVERYONE knows it. Palin just needed some outrage to continue her persecution complex world tour.
- Jeff Jones
What, being forced into making an apology more comprehensive than the initial 'apology', more than is genuinely felt, because of advertisers and sponsors? That's a model for us all? Good show?
- David Jones
Robert, here's why it wasn't a good apology. He still claims his intent has been misunderstood and the issue is an audience perception problem; that's not true. He still thinks it ok to have intended it to be about Bristol and yet he apologises to Bristol. On the one hand, joke would've been ok if about Bristol; on the other hand say sorry to Bristol - in the same breath. Pathetic.
- David Jones
I just wonder why Letterman apologized.to begin with. But for what it's worth the apology was pretty good.
- Rene Wirtz
In a few years if he had made this joke about an 18 year old Obama daughter he would have been fired immediately. The double standard is crystal clear. It's ok to make obscene jokes about Republicans, especially female Republicans.
- Sean OBrien
One more hop on my high horse: The Palins are a family of explotive, opportunistic perverts. Calling D. Letterman one is laughable, TSTL.
Russellreno, martha, Nick and 8 other people liked this
I'm watching Olbermann discuss this. Don't mind me...
- Helen Sventitsky
Dave was very obviously talking about Bristol. When someone says "Palin's Daughter" and "knocked up" in the same sentence they are not talking about Willow.
- Jeff Jones
That's what I got, Jeff. I guess Sarah hasn't gotten enough love from the press lately, or she wouldn't be tossing her tail feathers like a tizzied-up opera star. I hope David doesn't cater to them again with yet another apology. It's not his fault some people neither don't get it, nor would they conveniently want to.
- Helen Sventitsky
Watching also..with lap on my lap floating around FF and flickr-sound like fun?
- Myrna
Of course. Enjoying Michael Musto?
- Helen Sventitsky
I'm not so attracted to him for some reason. I have my favorites hehe
- Myrna
This part is so boring. I'm so sick of seeing that face. Amazing how she got kicked out in the end.
- Myrna
He is cute in a snarky kinda way, LOL!
- Helen Sventitsky
Oh that was a funny comment about Chastity.(not that what Chastity is doing is funny)
- Myrna
There are so many I love love love..hmmm Ana, Richard Wolffe, Chris from the Fix...you know..
- Myrna
Ohhh, Rachel..and Iran..I'm nervous..want that crazy guy gone.
- Myrna
Consumerist - Rockstar Energy Drink Doesn't Want Consumers To Know About Connection To Shock Jock Michael Savage - Rockstar - http://consumerist.com/5283320...
Joel Webber, Mrsth, Tyson Key and 11 other people liked this
"Did you know ultra-conservative talk radio guy Michael Savage has intimate family connections to Rockstar Energy Drink? If lawyers for the company have their way, you wouldn't, because over the past week they've started going after people who have publicized the connection. They managed to get one guy's "Boycott Rockstar" facebook account closed without warning, and threatened him with a business libel lawsuit if he didn't publicly apologize. A gay news website, gaywired.com, has had to publish a partial retraction. None of this changes the fact that Michael Savage's son is listed as the founder and CEO of Rockstar, or that Michael Savage's wife is listed as the director, treasurer, and secretary of both Rockstar and Savage Productions. Or that both companies share the same address. For those who don't know who he is, Michael Savage—whose real last name is Weiner—is a shock jock who likes to make outrageous statements about, among other things, gays and immigrants. Specifically, he...
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- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
Michael Savage makes me sick as does the Rockstar drink. Thankfully I can avoid both quite easily.
- sean808080
I've never liked Michael Savage's stance on censorship. The fact that he tried to sue CAIR for using part of his radio show on their website to raise funds bothered me. http://lawgeek.typepad.com/lawgeek... It seems like he relishes his free speech, but only when it applies to him. It seems that Rockstar is using the same...
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- Thomas Hawk
The article says Facebook took down a "Boycott Rockstar" user account. They don't censor holocaust deniers.
- Jason Nunnelley
good point Jason. Boycotting a product and promoting a boycott seems about as American right as they come in terms of free speech. Disappointed to see Facebook capitulate on this and disappointed to see Rockstar threatening the boycott group with a libel lawsuit.
- Thomas Hawk
Boycotting sucks. We should march on people we don't like with pitchforks and torches and show 'em how they did things 2 centuries ago. Tar and feather, baby! :D
- Wirehead
I did not know this. Amazing.
- EricaJoy
Walking along the side walk, you see something that catches your eye. In this moment you see this thing for what it is. The real thing. You like it and take out your camera and capture a rectangular image at the angle you like of this thing. You go home transfer the image from your camera onto your computer. Looking over the image on your mac, you crop, sharpen and boost the color. Then...
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- Chad Spacey
thanks Chad! :)
- Thomas Hawk
Hey I'm drinking a rockstar right now, yummy... I could care less about savage, If you look at any company I'm sure you will find an a-hole somewhere within the organization.
- Rodzilla
I know what he says Chad as I listen to him quite often. There is absolutely nothing in Thomas' description that was in any way untrue. In fact, his promotion of quackery and fake medicine is more dangerous that his loathsome politics.
- Jeff Jones
I personally don't mind his radio show and think that it's great that in America anyone can get on the radio and say whatever thing that they want no matter how asinine. I just think it's crappy that he wouldn't afford his critics that same sort of freedom of speech that allows him to get up on his soapbox and share how he views the world. Threatening your critics with lawsuits is a cowardly and chickenshit way to deal with people who would like to express an alternative viewpoint to yours.
- Thomas Hawk
Nom
- sofarsoShawn
Rodzilla, you are right that there are a-holes somewhere in just about every organization. In this case though Savage's son is apparently listed as founder and CEO. I think that that is more than just another individual in the organization. That said, I also wouldn't necessarily ascribe Michael Savage's political beliefs to his son. I have no idea what his son believes. I know my father...
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- Thomas Hawk
Wow. Two things I detest are somehow connected. :p Thanks for the heads-up, TH.
- Steven Perez
I'm trying to buy new iPhones for me and my wife (and switch from TMobile) but the apple site doesn't support family plans. The AT&T site is so slow as to be unusable and doesn't have the new iPhone on there yet. Please -- take my money!
Johnny, Denise Howell and Bret Taylor liked this
Is the iPhone that good? :)
- τorƍue
Right now I carry around my G1 and an iPod touch. I want one device so we are taking the plunge. Hopefully I won't regret it.
- Joe Beda ()
Decided to stay with my G1, crappy T-Mo coverage and all. Keyboard and connected chat were the clinchers. I think it's a better communications device and the iphone is a better entertainment device.
- Hayes Haugen
OK you definitely do not have the hang of this yet. There is no complaining about anything Apple. Just buy what they put out and don't ask questions.
- Jeff Jones
My favourite moment in the Apple keynote was when they didn't announce Flash support on the iPhone. That was awesome. (via @BenWard)
Adi, Jim Braux-Zin, DeWitt Clinton and 5 other people liked this
Shhhhh.. don't want to get the Apple fanbois all riled up.
- Jeff Jones
Leo Laporte Blows up at Mike Arrington - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Kol Tregaskes, anna sauce, Brian Hill and 52 other people liked this
Leo rocks
- Carol Levesque
Arrington was quite a jerk on this show. the "What are you going to do about it" line was right out of Jr. High.
- Jeff Jones
I liked Leo before, but now I respect him even more! Good for you not taking any shit from Arrington, Leo. If he knew you at all, he'd know you buy nearly everything you review. I've lost lots of respect for Arrington here--what a playground bully. I love that Leo just shut 'em all down! Thanks for sharing, Kevin, great stuff. I hope Leo has no regrets, because there should be none.
- Paul Salzman
I've never understood why Kevin, Leo, or any other well known technology people ever give a douchebag like Arrington the time of day.
- Chris Luckhardt
Leo : once again you've showed there are people we trust and follow (i.e you) and those who can't. Have been following and trusting you a long time, and will do more than ever now.
- arnaudt
Leo had every right to tell that guy to shove it. Mike was questioning Leo's integrity, in an irritating and cowardly manner to boot! What self-respecting journalist wouldn't, and shouldn't, react similarly?
- Ryan Shepherd
I've sometimes had a hard time reading arrington's articles on TechCrunch. They seemed to have tone that I couldn't really like. This little bit kind of solidified that thought and feeling about him.
- Robert de Castro
That was awesome! Leo, your integrity has always been top notch and you shouldn't let anybody question or tarnish it! Keep up the awesome work!
- Sean Simkins
What an arrogant ass. Way to stick it to him, Leo!
- Shawn Poulson
This is first time i've seen him like this.But he was correct in his stand, a review unit can't really influence such a decision.
- Abhishek
Arrington is a jerk. Leo is a class act all the way. SCREW YOU Arrington. your blog sucks anyway.
- Rustic Thoughts
That was amazing, good job Leo
- Johnathan Schultz
Leo has always been a man of integrity and surely has earned the right to give Arrington directions to Hell, when having his honor questioned. You go, Leo! --- Regular TWiT podcast, er . . . netcast listener, La-Tonia Denise Willis in Seattle
- PODFICTIONONLINE
Is it just me or techcrunch.com has this unexplainable air of unpleasentness in their posts?
- Alpay Erturkmen
kevin posted this? O Rly? cute.
- Caroline
Caroline: if you have digg fed into friendfeed then when you digg a story it comes over to friendfeed - kevin didn't post it if you go to the digg story you can find out who did - he even beat the creator of the video which is pretty impressive
- Chris Heath
I don't really know who is right, but I don't think that it's unreasonable to disclose that you were given something for free when making a recommendation about it. As matter of a fact, not disclosing it makes me question a persons integrity.
- Ron Hagenhoff
it wasn't FREE it was a 7-day review unit that he only asked for because he couldn't go wait in line for one. it was launched on saturday and leo does the radio show on saturday - therefore he reluctantly asked for a review unit - does that make sense?
- Chris Heath
Well since it wasn't free why get so angry? Arrington asked for Leo to make it clear to everyone that the unit was free. Wasn't free end of story. Obviously, there's prior issues between the 2 and I just think that it's weird all these people picking sides.
- Ron Hagenhoff
After watching a 2nd time I realized that Arrington pushed on with the FREE accusation even after Leo had said that the Pre wasn't free, That it was just a 7 day demo unit, and that he was thinking of buying one. My bad! I've heard that Arrington has since apologized though and that's a respectable thing to do.
- Ron Hagenhoff
I watched this about 4 times and wish I could make out what Mike was saying when they all were talking. I applaud Leo for standing up on the show live yet kinda sad to see him this way. I understand why Leo got the review unit. Mike went to far even if he thought Leo was wasn't serious. Edit: This is Mikes post on TechCrunch http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- James Reeves
While I like listening to Leo and admire his work, I do not think it is fair to do all this 'Mike' bashing.
- Kevin J Hatton
Sure, Mike apologizes and becomes adult about it now, after realizing once again that he doesn't hold near the audience that Leo does. If the tables were turned, I doubt he'd ever give Leo a second thought. What a turd.
- Fleagle
Can you say "Ooops I better kiss butt before I lose all my readers?"
- Rustic Thoughts
They've both apologized and moved on, I do believe each side has its own valid reasons. Read here http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- Jorge Escobar
Leo is a bigger man for accepting Arrington's apologies. I still wont read his blog however.
- Rustic Thoughts
I agree. I am not sure why some of these guys give Arrington the time of day. Way to go Leo!
- Adam Martin
I don't understand how anyone would come on a show and blatantly press an integrity issue, valid or not, with the _host_ of the show. That would never end well.
- Shawn Poulson
Some Like It Hot vs. Ran - http://www.flickchart.com/769F185...
How the hell am I supposed to choose between these films?
- Jeff Jones
Two pound donut -- no thanks - http://bitsandpieces.us/2009...
Jessica, Mahdi Ebrahimi, yasin ghasemi and 49 other people liked this
well, cakes aren't fried for one thing.
- Jim Is Not Smart
from IM
No thanks, but I don't eat doughnuts anyway
- Ian May
Too much.
- Derrick
I might try it. Once. I do love donuts but much prefer frosted chocolate (not the same as chocolate frosted!).
- CAJ, somewhere else
I've had that. :) Not just me though. My coworkers and I split it. We were dragged there by some reps from the company we were meeting with because they said we'd die sad people if we never tried the donuts at that place. Delicious indeed.
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
Cake donuts are horrible, Jason! Regular donut dough rules, on the other hand.
- Andrew C
hrm.. makes me wanna goto Tim's now
- ed fry
ONLY in America...
- Rob Sellen :o)
Must be in Texas.
- MicahBear78
Amazing, I saw an email last week for a huge breakfast in Britain with ten of everything. They should have this for afters!
- Joe Dawson
wow
- Shevonne
And... My left arm just went numb
- J. Abdul-Qahhar
I happen to live in the town (Round Rock, TX) where these are made. Round Rock donuts are famous around these parts but most folks just got normal sized ones. They are very good by the way.
- Jeff Jones
Jeff Jones: Yeah man I saw that TX restaurant on Man v. Food. The host tried to eat the whole thing, but he failed. LOL
- Danny Minick
Donuts in any form are awesome but give me my Krispy Kremes :D
- Moved to Facebook
from IM
That doesn't scratch? Real ones are better.
- Fernando Bergamaschi
Wow, it would be a death wish eating that huge-ass donut.
- Rick Cogley
LOL Rick most of the good tasting food these days is a death wish at some point
- Moved to Facebook
from IM
Just thinking about how big a coffee mug would be needed to dunk that.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
Does that mean if you eat it, you instantly gain two pounds?
- Martha
NOM! WANT!
- AJ Batac
No Problemo. Gimme two.
- Josh Haley
scary!
- Rachel Lea Fox
shopped!
- Jim Is Not Smart
Shopped?
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
I don't think so, but no one had said it yet, so...
- Jim Is Not Smart
from IM
@Rick Cogley - I just mentally did this with your comment: http://xkcd.com/37/
- Joshua Nunn
Josh: Two? I hope you mean Two Dozen! 2 donuts (even if they are big) just ain't enough!
- Morgan Haley
J. Nunn wins. That is all.
- Jim Is Not Smart
Yeah Morg, that's what I meant, of course!
- Josh Haley
Heart attack in a box!
- Zulema ◕ ◡ ◕
No sprinkles?
- Steven Perez
Steven: You win sprinkles man! Damn! I wish I thought of that!
- Morgan Haley
this post has 45 likes and 37 (now 38) comments at the time of this writing. Don't you people have jobs or something?
- Jim Is Not Smart
Jim: Of course we have jobs! That's why we NEED donuts of this type. Because our hollow, soul-less bodies need empty calorie nourishment! It helps fight off the effects of the florescent lighting!
- Morgan Haley
LOL! [ed: Morgan, why do you seem to appear and disappear from friendfeed. You need to be around on a more regular basis if you're going to leave comments like the ones in this thread].
- Jim Is Not Smart
Not even gonna say what this looks like.
- DO ANYBODY NO MONIQUE
which one?
- Jim Is Not Smart
Good lord!
- Trish Benningfield
I bet the picture makes it look worse than it is.. just slice it up and it will go good with some hot coffee :o)
- David Gross
from email
I am being COMPLETELY ignored at the Apple store in Chandler, AZ. How the heck do you get someone to help you? There's no "front counter."
edythe, Jeff (the メガマクダジ of FF), Alex Scoble and 2 other people liked this
That is hard to believe. The ones I go to here in Dallas have tons of people and bombard you with 'Can I help you?'
- Jim Graham
Tweet to @notapplecare! http://twitter.com/notappl...
- Rochelle
Go up to someone and say "EXCUSE ME"
- Shevonne
I bet if you take off your pants someone will come over and talk to you.
- Thomas Hawk
Just start stripping - usually gets someones attention
- Sparky
strip naked and yell "I have money to spend with you".. you'll either get served quickly, be banned from the store for eternity or wake up in jail. Either way, you'll no longer be ignored ;)
- alphaxion
I've found going behind the registers and poking at the terminal to get attention pretty quickly
- Aaron Choate
You have obviously not been trained properly in Apple Fanboi Procedure. Just stand there until someone comes along and takes pity on you and asks if they can help you as long as it doesn't take to much of their valuable time. Welcome to the Apple Store!
- Jeff Jones
response times vary store to store, I usually get seen to very quickly when I stand around with my watch on timer mode, don't know why.
- Franz Sittampalam
from IM
You just need to get a 14 year old girl to walk in with a short skirt, pig tails, and have her start looking at the iPods in the center of the store. You will have a sales person with in 2 minutes, and then you can just walk in as her father.
- Wizetux
ok these suggestions are getting increasingly disturbing ;p
- Franz Sittampalam
I'm usually invisible in the apple store unless I walk up to an employee in the iPod area (even if that isn't what I want). They usually don't get to move around much, so they flag someone else to come help me. I'd be annoyed, but after that point they've had 100% success at finding the product I want, and in each case they've always asked if I qualify for discounts (which I do - gov't). Apart from the successful bit, that's my experience in Best Buy as well.
- Jennifer Dittrich
They just don't have many people out on the floor today and I'm in a hurry because I'm here on my lunch break.
- Chrimmus Tad
Pull the USB cable with the green/orenge/red light glowing out of the USB Port. Someone will be with you shortly.
- Geoff Schultz
You could always go over to the iPod area and start talking to others about how the new Zune is so much better than the iPods. I'm sure you will have a sales person asking your to leave shortly there after, in which you can then just say, "Now that I have your attention, could you please do X."
- Wizetux
I thought that was how it was in Apple stores. I've only been to 4 of them though, but was ignored at them all. It's not like that elsewhere?
- Admiral Anika
I think you need to dress all in black.
- jcunwired
Good Lord, I've never been ignored. It's hell to get them to stop following you around everywhere and asking if they can help.
- Mistletoe Glen
Guitars in Cleveland http://www.pbase.com/tremont...
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Iván Abrego, Manuela, Mitra_s and 15 other people liked this
"cleveland artists and other rock-stars designed and decorated large fibreglass guitars then scattered them around downtown cleveland."
- M F
We have these in downtown Austin as well. Very cool.
- Jeff Jones
wonderfull
- kaan
All we got was crabs.
- m9m, Crone of FriendFeed
In Austin, we've got Gibsons ... I would have preferred the Fenders! Austin is the home of the Stratocaster ...
- Allan Besselink
Young Conservatives Rap - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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R. Ferguson, Steven Perez, Mark A Dyson and Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah liked this
Well, this is certainly interesting.
- Derrick
please tell me that this is meant as satire or a parody of some sort. please!
- Katy S
They would *really* like to be an SNL Digital Short, but have fallen far short of the mark.
- Derrick
Not watching it. The comments are enough to let me know I don't want to...LOL
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
LOL Dave. P.S. This was terrible.
- nakachi
@Rah good call
- Louis Simoneau
ELEKTRA was better than this.
- Steven Perez
The credits AFTER Elektra, were better than this. O_o
- Derrick
Oh, God, this wasn't a dream, after all.
- Steven Perez
@Akiva: that clip was pure awesome
- Roger Benningfield
Well... it's good to see that young conservatives don't have anything more to offer than old ones. Here's to decades of non-conservative political dominance in our great country.
- Jeff Jones
NOT BORING.
- Steven Perez
from IM
Well, this is certainly disinteresting.
- teh Dork Knight aka Kenny
I'm proud of the tone our U.S. Senator Cornyn sets in his statement on Sotomayor. http://cornyn.senate.gov/public...
Yes Cornyn parrots the national GOP talking points very well. I actually require a little more actual thought to elicit emotions such as "being proud".
- Jeff Jones
What wine are you drinking these days? wondering...
Alfredo, Kol Tregaskes, Rick Cogley and 10 other people liked this
mango juice
- Ron Hagenhoff
I drink all kinds. For Mother's Day, I got wine from the Tuscany region.
- Shevonne
Whatever cabs are in my wine fridge although I do drink the occasional varietal (chianti, tempranillo, etc.)...the last cab that I had was a 2005 BV.
- Alex Scoble
2005 was a good year
- Shevonne
Drinking Santa Rita 2006 Cab Reserva; Rodney Strong 2006 Cab and 2007 Pinot Noir; and Menage a Trois 2007 red. Love them all. EDIT for FF: That's a Santa Rita 2006 Cabernet Sauvignon Reserva (Chile) and Rodney Strong 2006 Cabernet Sauvignon (Sonoma). The Chilean wine is like drinking sips of a dream. The Menage a Trois is my daily drinkable. Apologies to my French friends for the lack of diacriticals.
- Heather
I don't drink wine. Me is beer. Me is beer Big Time. Just emptied a bottle of Vollbier from Löwenbräu, Buttenheim (own import).
- Ton Zijp
I have so much wine, there's no single go-to varietal or blend in my cellar. Though at my wine tasting this coming weekend, we'll be primarily sipping on roses, pinot grigios, and dry muscats. It's the perfect weather for it. :)
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
I've been enjoying the Peter Lehman 2006 Shiraz.
- Mark Krynsky
2005 Babich Sauvignon Blanc from NZ. Great summer wine and, here in Austin, it's already HOT!
- Jeff Jones
Twisted Oak Syrah.
- Trish R
Sauv Blanc from Marlborough NZ is one of my favorite wines at the moment
- Will Higgins™
This afternoon, we're having some kind of late harvest riesling. The wine fridge is too far away for me to see. In general, we've been into whites lately (mostly riesling and pinot gris) although I think we'll be breaking into some ice wine soon.
- Rochelle
ripple. boones farm (strawberry hill). 50/50 (wine/water). wish wine (water with a splash of wine)
- Morgan Haley
Rosso & Brunello di Montalcino's here, I got a good deal from a bud in the restaurant business.
- jcunwired
grocery store favorites lately: Kenwood cab, and Toad Hollow Unoaked Chard.
- Kelly W.
whatever my wife brings home...unfortunately it usually has "tail" at the end of it and every time I take the damn wine out of the refrigerator, she puts it back it....
- Daniel Kenney
Had a chard from Pleasant Valley Vinyards that was incredible. Since I can't actually afford that, my everyday wine is Manage a Trois. My splurge yet still affordable wine is a Barbera from Downhill Winery. I've become a big barbera fan over the years.
- Todd Hoff
*fistbump* Trish R! :D Twisted Oak rules my world...
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
Bella Sera 2006 Chianti, Sebeka Shiraz Pinotage 2007 & Alamos Malbec 2007
- Eric Truman
Gary - last wine I had was this. Good: http://www.flickr.com/photos...
- Rick Cogley
Who is Sonia Sotomayor? - CNN.com - http://www.cnn.com/2009...
Alex Scoble, Helen Sventitsky and Thomas Hawk liked this
Conservatives argue Sotomayor has a "hard-left record"
- Mrsth
from Bookmarklet
I heard there's plenty video on Youtube to do more than argue..but I have not researched myself yet.
- Mike Lewis
Yep. Self admitted policy maker from the bench
- Mrsth
80 percent over turn rate
- Mrsth
U can't be overturned when ur at the top
- Davis Freeberg
She's a liberal appeals judge and the Supreme Court is very conservative, so it's not surprising that the Supreme Court would overturn or modify the majority of her decisions that they reviewed. So that doesn't say much about the quality of her judging. Of course, she also wrote hundreds of opinions that the Supremes didn't bother reviewing.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
It's actually 60% not 80% and, had you actually done one iota of research you would have found that her overturn rate is actually BELOW the overturn average of cases brought before the SC since that court typically overturns 75% of cases brought before it. A more accurate reading would be to look at her overturn rate based on ALL her cases not JUST the five that made it all the way to...
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- Jeff Jones
Actually I should not have used the "you" pronoun here as I didn't intend this to be a judgment of the OP rather of the folks making this lame argument. My apologies.
- Jeff Jones
RED ALERT: Did anti-Obama campaign contributions dictate which Chrysler dealers were shuttered? - http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009...
Kenton, Craig Eddy and Thomas Hawk liked this
"thus far found only a single Obama donor (and a minor one at that: $200 from Jeffrey Hunter of Waco, Texas) on the closing list."
- Mrsth
from Bookmarklet
I shared an article related to this awhile ago. Turns out that the majority of car dealers are Republican supporters. Therefore it only seems like they're being singled out. - http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive...
- Kenton
Thouroughly debunked by the fine folks over at fivethirtyeight.com. Short answer, in 2008 auto dealers gave 1.221 MILLION in contributions to Republicans and only 161 THOUSAND to Dems. Of course the dealers closed are going to be mainly Republican donors with numbers like that. No story here, just the right wing noise machine doing what they do best... blathering without looking at actual facts.
- Jeff Jones
Billionaire: Elite Want Two-Thirds Of The “Dumb People” Wiped Off The Planet - http://www.infowars.com/billion...
edythe, Cole Jolley, Todd Hoff and Christopher Harley liked this
"Billionaire entrepreneur Kevin Trudeau, who has been constantly harassed and sued by the FTC for promoting alternative health treatments, told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that elitists and Bilderberg members who he had personally conversed with spoke of their desire to see “two thirds of the dumb people” wiped off the planet. Trudeau admitted that he was in Greece recently and implied that he attended the Bilderberg Group meeting, while also stating that he personally knew many Bilderberg members who he “conversed with on a regular basis”."
- Sean McBride
from Bookmarklet
"“Some of the conversations you have on the 200 foot yachts off the coast of Monaco - you can’t believe what really goes on behind closed doors,” said Trudeau, noting that Alex Jones had exposed such issues in his documentary films, notably Endgame. The billionaire said that he had recently spent time in Monaco with Crown Prince Albert II."
- Sean McBride
"Trudeau stated that elitists he had talked to thought their plans were for the greater good of humanity but that they believed there were two classes of people on earth, the ruling elite and the “worker bees,” and that the elite were defined not necessarily by money or power, but by their genetic ancestry."
- Sean McBride
Once the herd and I have been deleted who will buy their stuff?
- Todd Hoff
Who's going to maintain the yachts?
- Yuval Atzmon
+1 @Todd... moreover, who will clean their homes and yachts, or mow the lawns of their palatial mansions and golf courses?
- .LAG liked that
from fftogo
@Yuval... oh you beat me to the yacht comment! .LOLz
- .LAG liked that
from fftogo
That's why they will spare one third of the dumb people -- to maintain the yachts and clean the mansions. :)
- Sean McBride
Alex Jones is our most famous local nutjob. I used to run into him quite often while shooting a local access cable show here in Austin.
- Jeff Jones
Jeff Jones -- true: it's pretty nutty to mention the existence of non-existent entities like the Bilderberg Group, whose most recent meeting was attended by no one, and certainly not by any members of the Obama administration.
- Sean McBride
...someone always has to play the role of the mythological Cassandra: telling truths so impossible and fantastic that no one believes her. the line in the story about (paraphrasing): "...he's tolerated because he desensitizes people from reality..." was telling.
- .LAG liked that
Pixies AND Bilderberg in one day. Sean, we must hang out sometime! LOL
- Cole Jolley
Eat a bag of dicks, California evangelists.
deusdiabolus, Head Ov Metal, Chris Luckhardt and 81 other people liked this
I noticed several people liked this, but don't know what you mean. Could you clarify in the comments?
- Jason Nunnelley
Yep.
- Akiva Moskovitz
REALLY?
- D. Eda Goze
Freakin' take a stand one way or the other! Either let everybody or nobody have same-sex marriages. WHAT DOES IT MATTER? It's just a legal contract in the end (from the government perspective). <sigh>
- CAJ, somewhere else
this is extremely upsetting. F****!!
- D. Eda Goze
OK, I guess it's what I thought - just a jab at California Christians that believe marriage should be man+woman over the court's decision to uphold Prop 8. You guys should get together and burn some crosses in their yards.
- Jason Nunnelley
Labeling California "evangelists" is just wrong. Like it or not, the people voted not to support it. That is more than just a couple of "evangelists"
- Spencer
Jason, California Christians are free to act on their beliefs in their own lives, but why do some of them feel so compelled to infringe others' rights and happiness?
- LogEx
Sounds like they'd like to burn something other than crosses, Jason.
- Craig Eddy
LOL Akiva that makes me feel better :) just a 'lil
- sofarsoShawn
Spencer, you're right. I shouldn't narrow it down to just California. All evangelists and proselytizers can eat a bag of dicks. Better?
- Akiva Moskovitz
I don't get it. When did the constitution change from 2004? http://www.redorbit.com/news... I thought there were anti-discrimination provisions.. wtf..
- Rodfather
I guess the polygamists don't stand a chance, either.
- Craig Eddy
I think this issue is way more than Christians. I mean, even Obama is against gay marriage.
- Spencer
Craig, no, which is nutty because polygamy isn't considered bad by the Torah.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Spencer, Obama's a Christian.
- Akiva Moskovitz
IMHO, the problem is that the evangelical community outspent and outmanuvered the anti-prop-8 folks and generally did their best to mislead the public. They did it because they knew if California voted down prop-8, they'd really lost and also because everybody was distracted by not having a republican in the white house.
- Wirehead
I'm not really sure if there's a better word to describe the dogtwat section of Christianity that's nice and short and memorable, so evangelical would have to do, I guess.
- Wirehead
I don't agree with you much Akiva but I'm with you all the way on this one.
- Jeff Jones
Heh. Uh, thanks, Jeff.
- Akiva Moskovitz
@LogicalExtremes Are Christians in California denying homosexuals the right to live as they see fit? Don't conflate Christians with a political ideology or "marriage" with unions. The issue some Christians take is the word itself. Call it something else, like civil union, and you lose 99% of the friction. But, [gay marriage] isn't simply about living happily and unmolested. The movement wants to force religious groups to "accept" them. It's a cultural conflict, by design.
- Jason Nunnelley
I respectfully disagree, Jason. Calling the civil-recognized legal pairing marriage was a historical accident, but we're stuck with it. Were people centuries ago to have had perfect foresight, they would have called the whole thing a "civil union" and left "marriage" to the churches. But they didn't, so you've got "Marriage the civil thing" and "Marriage the religious thing". And...
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- Wirehead
Saying that you are OK with it being civil unions but not marriage is like saying that Obama is smart for a black guy.
- Wirehead
@Wirehead So, if I don't want to wed someone in my church because my doctrine clearly states I can't do that, I'm a bigot. That's what you're saying. So, all Christians (including Obama himself) are bigots. Some churches won't perform weddings for people that are previously married to other people. Are they also bigots, or only bigots if they won't wed same-sex partners?
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, I fail to see how the state recognizing marriage has implications for your church. The procedure and requirements that I have to follow to be married in the Catholic Church exist for me as a person of faith, not for me as a citizen. The procedure and requirements that I have to follow to be legally married by my state are completely different. My Church doesn't have to marry non-Catholics; my state does.
- joey
No, Jason, what I'm saying is that the Catholic church (or any other, for that matter) continues to reserve the right to not recognize a marriage for a wide variety of reasons. There are reasons why they will refuse to marry a man and a woman. We are talking about marriage in the eyes of the law, which already recognizes my marriage in the same terms as somebody who got married in Vegas by an Elvis impersonator.
- Wirehead
Jason, I think you've fallen for the typical lies and misinformation from organizations like NOM and other fear-mongering propagandists. Those of us trying to secure our rights don't care a whit about what churches do or don't do. What we're looking for is the same rights and privileges that opposite-sex couples who are "married" get. It is all about the public sphere and nothing about...
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- S. Charles Balazs
Well-put, joey.
- Akiva Moskovitz
And relying on religion for defending your thoughts doesn't work for me. I'm not religious and don't follow any doctrine other than my own, which is based on respect, kindness, and love. Telling me I'm going to hell based on where I'd like to place my genitals is weak and doesn't work if you don't believe in hell to begin with, so outside of that, what else do you have?
- Derrick
@Derrick. Well, like anything, your belief in it has little bearing on whether it exists or not. Of course that cuts both ways. I think we've commented on this before that hell, also, may just be simply separation from God (we're assuming God exists here, I know, but bear with me). As such, we're, in essence, in hell right now. It really has nothing to do with your genitals (as...
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- Kevin Kuphal
Kevin, I hear where you're coming from and clearly you have a religious sensibility that I A) lack and B) am fine with. But this is also California. How presumptuous is it to think that everyone is a Christian and believes in Jesus? What a slap in the face to Buddhists, Jewish people, Muslims, etc. I don't doubt your commitment to God and I think that faith is a wonderful thing. I wish...
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- Derrick
*nods* Totally agree with your last there, Derrick.
- Kevin Kuphal
It is unfortunate that emotions sometimes overwhelm us. This is a perfect example of bad law. For the the record I believe the word "marriage" should be removed from any federal, state and local law and the word "marriage" should have no legal standing. The logical part is that the population of California voted to amend the state constitution and the state Supreme Court has said that what the voters voted will stand. Isn't that how our republic is supposed to work?
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
No, Mark. Voters should not be able to directly create laws in a republic. That's what the legislative branch is for.
- Alex Scoble
The sad part, MVB, is that the majority shouldn't be able to vote out minorities from anything. It isn't what this country was founded on or what it should stand for.
- Kevin Kuphal
No, Mark. The constitution--at least, the federal one--was designed more to protect the rights of minorities (taken in the broad sense of "those who are in the minority" rather than the racial/ethnic sense) than to propagate democracy, of which the framers were suspicious at best.
- Steve Lowe
On a more serious note, does anyone actually own such a bag. And, why?
- S. Charles Balazs
Marriage is a purely religious institution and thus ought not be regulated by the state in any way. Let churches do whatever they want (and don't want) to do. However, it's going to take us many generations to evolve into that awareness. So in the meantime, since so many civil rights are conferred upon couples (by governmental and private organizations) who opt to marry/civil-une, they...
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- Anthony Citrano
@Alex Evidently in California it is possible. @Kevin I agree. This is a bad law to begin with. @Steve The federal constitution is by design discriminatory in that it provides for many decisions to be made by majority rule.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
@Akiva, I can tell you're upset, but your expletive made me laugh. That's a good one. :-)
- Joey Gibson
@joeybean @wirehead @scbalazs I view the state's business as purely secular, and wish it were so because I don't consider the state my religion's friend. But, I'm trying to tell people how to get along. Want to pass same-sex unions, call it something besides marriage. If you can't handle that because you want religious people to call your relationship marriage, then it's no longer a...
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- Jason Nunnelley
@acitrano I happen to agree with you, that government shouldn't participate in marriage. But, I think government shouldn't tell me what to do in regards to all sorts of things, as our government works to take upon itself more and more of my personal decisions. But, what "rights" are conferred upon a marriage couple that a simple contract can't institute. Besides I oft wish I could avoid the marriage penalty I pay in federal taxes. Is that a privilege anyone else would want?
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, I still don't buy locking down a word. To Catholics, marriage is a sacrament. Should I say that Protestants can't call what they have a marriage or that atheists can't call what they have a marriage because they don't define the word the same way Catholics do? And what about people who don't speak English? Can my gay friends have what I can have as long as it has a different etymology?
- joey
I like the way they do this in Netherlands (and other civilized places): Everyone has to go to the court system for a legally binding union that has all the rights included. If you want to get married, go head on to your church of choice, but the marriage has no legal basis. Solves a lot of problems.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
@joeybean Saying they have the "right" to call their union [marriage] is a position of faith. The argument that it can't be called marriage is also a position of faith. If the goal were purely a physical one, this wouldn't be the argument. It's a spiritual war, a social conflict. It's not good enough for Christians to leave same-sex couples unmolested. It's not good enough that they enjoy legal rights. Christians must use the word you dictate to describe the union, and embrace it.
- Jason Nunnelley
Can someone also tell me why polygamists and same-sex marriages are lumped in with each other? Apples and oranges. I dare say same sex marriage has more to do with my parent's heterosexual marriage than those who practice polygamy.
- Derrick
But Jason, I already have to accept that Mainline Protestants, Evangelical Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and heterosexual Atheists have the right to use that word...and they don't mean it the same way I do. Some of them, not even close. Do I have to embrace it? Not at all. What I have to do is acknowledge that I don't own a word that has taken on secular meaning.
- joey
@joeybean Because Catholics didn't establish the country, its laws or our principals social structure. Protestants did. Catholics are the minority. This comes from English common law (not Catholic) and American tradition (not Catholic). Sorry, I'm dealing with reality and it's often harsh and immovable. If you enjoy arguing, continue to fight the public on the use of this word for unions between two people of the same sex. If you want success, just side step it.
- Jason Nunnelley
And I love being ignored, too. Thanks for that.
- Derrick
@geekandahalf [Derrick] it's because eroding the social definition has consequences. You can't make an argument for same sex marriage and argue against polygamy. That's duplicitous. The norms that govern one govern the other.
- Jason Nunnelley
Derrick, it's because many people lump everything that's not a traditional marriage into one category. It's kind of how the world is divided into white people and not white people.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Derrick, I think that polygamy is lumped in with gay marriage because of the people who think that legalizing gay marriage would inevitably lead to legalization of other types of marriage, including polygamous marriages.
- Rochelle
Derrick, I think Akiva is right. Also, polygamy makes people jumpy and so lumping gay marriage with it creates a negative association.
- joey
Trust me - they are not only dicks where this issue is concerned.
- Rustic Thoughts
@joey - as if gay marriage doesn't make these same people jumpy? ;)
- Anthony Citrano
OK, @Akiva is calling me a racist again because I don't see the world exactly the same way. You're a very open minded thoughtful person. (insert sarcasm since you may not get it)
- Jason Nunnelley
Are you guys bigots against polygamists?
- Jason Nunnelley
Sorry, Jason, that's a leap that I just don't get. What does me marrying another man, someone I love and want to spend the rest of my time with, affect anyone else? Honestly, what difference does it make?
- Derrick
@geekandahalf [Derrick] is has the same effect as allowing polygamy: none on me personally. But, calling people who don't embrace the choices you make (for personal religious beliefs) a bunch of bigots and spewing hatred doesn't improve society. If you're on board for spreading hate for anyone that disagrees with you, then pick up your pitchfork and start killing believers. That's the...
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- Jason Nunnelley
@jason - I'm not. if three, four, five people want to marry, I don't care. It's simply not my business how they choose to live their lives or conduct their romantic / personal associations. Who am I to judge? While that's admittedly a tangent, it's in that same spirit that I strongly support Derrick's point. If two consenting adults want to get married, who the hell am I to judge or deny them?
- Anthony Citrano
As far as I know, there's no widespread movement to stop same sex couples from living together or living the life they desire. The only conflict is over a word. This is a decision by some (several here) to pick a fight with believers because you hate their beliefs and them as people. It's not about peace, getting along, or living your life unmolested. There are obvious compromises to get around these issues. I really think this is more about anger because people don't embrace your beliefs.
- Jason Nunnelley
I never called anyone a bigot, Jason. I don't hate religious folk, or evangelicals, or anyone of the sort. And all I want, all I've ever talked about, all I've ever said (go back through my thread if you don't believe me), is the same rights and freedom as anyone who's apparently heterosexual. Ask anyone, I'm a lover, not a fighter...even with those who have damned me to hell.
- Derrick
Jason, I used Catholicism as an example because they are very particular and rigid about a definition of marriage, but do you really think the Protestant view of marriage developed independently of the institution they broke away from? Or should I then not be able to use the word 'marriage' since I'm not Protestant? It works all ways. And if your argument is going to turn into...
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- joey
@geekandahalf [Derrick] Sorry, in context I'm talking about @Akiva who continually spews quite a bit of anger in the direction of believers and anyone else that doesn't agree with him. I didn't direct that part toward you.
- Jason Nunnelley
@joeybean My state is already quite out of step with my views. I didn't establish the rules, populism, democracy, etc. I've not disclosed how I define marriage but how most people do. And, if you want a democratic state on your side you'll have to get along with the majority, or kill them. I'd rather agree to disagree and sidestep the matter. But, that's me. I'm not in this fight. I'm just sharing a method that will lead you to victory.
- Jason Nunnelley
BTW, I don't have a problem with polygamy (someone else's definition of marriage doesn't change mine), but it would be more complex in terms of contract law, custody, and other things that the state would have to budget for.
- joey
I think the people that created this legislation are in for a world of woe. Equal rights and love for all.
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
I love him. He loves me. We want to get married. We can't. FAIL.
- Derrick
@geekandahalf [Derrick] Can you explain to me how a group of people accepting your union as marriage, calling it that, endorsing it, etc. changes your relationship? This is the part I don't understand.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, imagine someone legally taking away your marriage, calling it that, endorsing it, etc. How does that change your relationship. Hopefully that helps you understand.
- Derrick
Jason, your question was already directly answered a few zillion posts ago in this very thread: "I respectfully disagree, Jason. Calling the civil-recognized legal pairing marriage was a historical accident, but we're stuck with it. Were people centuries ago to have had perfect foresight, they would have called the whole thing a "civil union" and left "marriage" to the churches. But...
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- Daniel J. Pritchett
And I'd rather educate and lobby and fight and hope that opinion changes or that the majourity does. I have no desire to inflict harm on people who have a different belief system than I do, but I do have a desire to make sure that belief system doesn't relegate others to life as second-class citizens. And I certainly don't want the state coming for my (hypothetical) marriage next...
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- joey
tl;dr version: Withholding the M word from certain unions puts the onus on them to slowly earn equal rights by overturning or rewriting one law at a time because so many existing laws specify "marriage". Allowing marriage circumvents all of those decades of additional legal hassle at the expense of what appears to be some bruised egos on the fundamentalist side.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
@joeybean My only reason for using polygamy as a parallel is that you can't make a valid argument against it without using religious or social norms in an argument. We actually put people in prison for practicing a lifestyle that nobody can reasonable deny them. It's adults practicing a lifestyle they choose. It is parallel because it's people practicing a lifestyle they believe in when...
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- Jason Nunnelley
@Jason - The polygamy argument conveniently safeguards marriage in its current form. Why shouldn't the status quo have to justify itself? To go further in the opposite direction - what right does *anyone* have to get married?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
@dpritchett That's a valid argument. But, I don't know what these rights are. What "right" do I have by calling my marriage "marriage?" We have mutual obligations and encumbrances because we are married. But, I don't see the big advantage. We pay more tax, suffer more hassles if we go separate ways.
- Jason Nunnelley
Civil unions aren't currently afforded equal status with marriages. By insisting that non-hetero couples settle for civil-not-marriage-unions society implicitly condones a gap in the rights and status afforded to one class over another. Even if everyone accepts the "fine, but don't call it marriage" argument there is still a lot of ground to cover to afford equal protections to all unions.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
1UP Daniel re: civil unions. Suggest a civil union to a heterosexual couple with those restrictions and they'd reject it too.
- Derrick
gonna track down the video Richard Bluestein did after his partner died. Gets the point across as to why marraige in the eyes of the law (not whatever buddy you call god) should be for EVERYONE that wants it. If you aren't moved by it you have no empathy for your fellow human.
- alphaxion
Separate but equal is impossible if only due to the administrative overhead of maintaining two slightly different copies of every law and form and register. Simple IT problem, eh?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
@dpritchett @Derrick I'd take a nonyabusiness relationship w/ my government. Why do you want government so burried up in your life anyway? Nobody can tell me what these wonderful advantages are that married people enjoy under the law. Pay more tax, more encumbrances in the event of a split. Gene Simmons got it right when he said marriage is a bad deal.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, I agree that we don't have the right to restrict. Where I can see the state having issues with polygamy from a practical perspective (not social norms) is with the complexity of contracts...who can sign in what situations and with what documentation, who can make medical decisions, what happens to children who have grown up with half-siblings, etc. in the event of divorce? I...
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- joey
Jason, I'd like the option. Currently I have none.
- Derrick
@Derrick, obviously I just don't see the advantage at all. I keep asking people to explain it to me, how it matters, what I'm enjoying that others can't. But, in regards to the state I just don't get it. It's an easy problem to overcome. But, both sides aren't willing to budge.
- Jason Nunnelley
got it.. http://www.youtube.com/watch... it's a very frank and to the point video. Would you like your love for your partner to be described in that way?
- alphaxion
just don't give up guys - water cuts even stones
- A.T.
Never, A.T.
- Derrick
Hetero example of why you need a legal marriage: a friend of mine married very young. They struggled to get through college together and would have been much better off single as far as housing etc. Soon after they graduated he was stricken with a fatal illness. She was his legal wife and could be there with him, sign documents, make medical decisions and eventually bury him. Had they not been married, just "living together," she would have had no legal rights at all.
- m9m, Crone of FriendFeed
1UP m9m
- Derrick
@m9m That's not a valid example of how marriage is better than civil agreements. If he had given those powers to his wife she would have had them w/out a marriage certificate. I have the very same rights granted me through a legal document.
- Jason Nunnelley
It's a good example in that everyone knows what legal marriage means for that situation, whereas personal contracts can be more ambiguous. I won't have to present my marriage certificate should something happen to my fiance (G-d forbid), I will just have to say 'I'm his wife.'
- joey
There are some rights that can only be gained by marriage, not by any other contract. And here in Virginia, the ill-informed anti-marriage-equality crowd OK'd a law that restricts many such agreements between "non-related" people. The list of marriage rights is pretty commonly available, you can start with Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- S. Charles Balazs
Jason: I said "legal" marriage as in civil marriage. In many cases only immediate family counts - spouses and blood relatives. What happens in an emergency when no power-of-attorney forms have been issued? Just recently my uncle was in an accident, unable to name a representative. I could not even get the name of the hospital he was transferred to, could not find out his condition, and had to go through all kinds of legal hoopla to show I was his only relative. Imagine if it happened to your life partner.
- m9m, Crone of FriendFeed
It's not just about a word, and it's not at all about religion. Jason, you may find it unfortunate that the state is involved in institutionalizing religion, but, unless the state gets completely out of it--essentially stripping everyone of these rights (where you wouldn't be able to visit your wife in the hospital because you're "not family")--then we need to apply the constitutional and judicial principles that we do in these issues.
- S. Charles Balazs
One last point that I'm loath to bring up but feel compelled. We're hearing a lot of statements about marriage equality that eerily repeat the same arguments against interracial marriage. Thankfully these were overturned in Loving v Virginia. We will likely have to have our day in Supreme Court as well. Patience and perseverance will yield justice and hopefully enlightenment.
- S. Charles Balazs
Equating race with sexuality is ludicrous. It's not the same thing at all.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, why not?
- Rochelle
No, equating sexuality with sexual orientation is ludicrous. Equating two things that are fixed by genetics (race and sexual orientation) is not ludicrous, it's perfectly valid and makes complete sense...unless you are a bigot.
- Alex Scoble
@itblogger OK, you're a bigot :)
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, can I ask you a question?
- Johnny Worthington
@rochelles I don't think I can convince you if you really believe it's fair to compare the "right" to be married to anyone you choose and it be recognized and called marriage by all to freedom from racially based slavery, segregation, et al. It's intentionally inflammatory and an immature comparison. You can't honestly compare what black people in America have suffered with what same sex couples suffer. It's just not the same thing at all.
- Jason Nunnelley
So you are saying that homosexual people have not had to deal with the same sorts of oppression as those of non-white races? They've never gotten beaten up for their orientation, nor killed, nor denied access to services that others take for granted? And don't call me a bigot when the shoe is on your foot.
- Alex Scoble
@Johnny Worthington You can ask whatever you like. But, this loose and mentally slothful accusation that anyone that doesn't line up with cosmopolitan views on marriage are all bigots is not winning anyone.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, why did I marry my partner?
- Johnny Worthington
Wow. Just wow.
- Rochelle
@itblogger You are a bigot. Dictionary.com has a clear definition of the word, and your statement reveals you're a bigot. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse...
- Jason Nunnelley
People who claim to be "open minded," and thoughtful people who spew hate and bigotry are behaving intellectually dishonest. [Most people in this conversation aren't doing that.] They try to make their points without dehumanizing those that disagree with them. But, some people just spout hate. It's cool, apparently, to spout hate so long as it's against people that aren't on the cool...
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- Jason Nunnelley
@FFundercat I don't know. I'm not sure what you're reasons are. Some people marry for convenience, some because they think the title means something or adds value to their relationship. I don't know, and I don't rely on the state to determine the value of my relationships. I appreciate your engagement, but this conversation (as a group) started as a cheering camp for anyone that agrees...
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- Jason Nunnelley
Yeah, how dare they agree with me. The nerve of some people.
- Akiva Moskovitz
@Akiva I've no problem with that. But, I've got nothing of value to add. I disagree with your hateful position and think spewing hate toward believers is counterproductive. But, do what you wish.
- Jason Nunnelley
Well, I'm quite comfortable saying that people who want to legally forbid homosexuals from having equal rights are bigots. People who don't care if some people have a religious problem with homosexuals having equal rights (because the issue is a secular, state one, not a religious one) are not necessarily bigots. (They might be bigots about something, but ignoring religious anxiety when it's a secular issue is not bigotry.)
- josh neff, geek at large
Sorry, Jason, but you are the person who made the claim that sexual orientation (actually you used a completely BS term for it) isn't the same as race or religion and shouldn't be protected as such...as such, the onus is on YOU to back up your claim. Not on us.
- Alex Scoble
I'm not spewing hate, Jason, and you're misusing the term. I disagree (and obviously rather strongly) with evangelism and proselytization. I'm not saying I hate evangelists. I'm not even suggesting that evangelists are second-classed citizens deserving of fewer rights than other citizens. In fact, if anyone's doing that around here, it's them. So, if you want to accuse someone of 'hate', I think you're talking to the wrong crowd.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Jason, we are talking about denying citizens legal rights that other citizens have, purely based on religious motivations. That to me is a clear violation of the first amendment. If the laws were as they should be, civil union would be the legal contract, and marriage could be whatever people wanted it to mean in the context of their own beliefs. Unfortunately, that is not the structure...
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- LogEx
The reason I ask is that according to the current definition, I only married my wife because she is a woman. That is wrong. I am in love with the person, not the sexual organs. I love my wife so much and could not even entertain the idea of not being able to marry her because of the beliefs of another. I have very close friends who share the same love for each other, but are denied the...
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- Johnny Worthington
@Starbuck The camp position is that all Christians are morons, evil, and should be eradicated. You can easily side step them by simply not using language that's inflammatory. For some reason, that's not an option. @itblogger race and sexual orientation simply AREN'T the same thing, period. Recognizing that doesn't make me a racist. One is behavior, one is race. Calling anyone that...
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- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, are you calling me camp? Dude, just because I support equal rights for queers doesn't make me camp!
- josh neff, geek at large
Why can't we use the same philosophy of Jesus (for the Christian groups) - Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.
- Janet
No, you haven't made your point, you've only proven mine. Thanks for playing though.
- Alex Scoble
I'll add, or reiterate, this is not about orientation. It's about choices and behavior, perhaps contract law. There's no law, no group, no movement afoot to stop same-sex couples from living a lifestyle of their choosing. The issue is over a word, and as long as you battle the people that simply have an issue with that syntax, you're wasting energies that could be better spent somewhere else.
- Jason Nunnelley
Well, who owns the word?
- Johnny Worthington
Jason, hate to break it to you, but you don't get to decide what's important to other people.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Basically, my attitude about this is like my dad's about the Civil Rights Movement (which he was very active in): I don't want to change the way people feel about this, I just want to change the laws so that discrimination isn't legal. If you want to think homosexual marriage is wrong, go right ahead. I just don't want you to be able to legally stop homosexual marriage.
- josh neff, geek at large
Choice? What CHOICE? I don't have any CHOICES!??!!??? *head explodes*
- Derrick
No, I specifically called you out separately from the camp. I described the camp position, then dealt with your position. Don't knee-jerk. That reactionary process isn't good for conversation.
- Jason Nunnelley
But, D, didn't you CHOOSE to be gay?
- Akiva Moskovitz
No more than I chose to be right-handed.
- Derrick
Any two consenting adults of legal age ought to be able to enter into a domestic partnership contract. They may then call it whatever the hell they please. Problem solved.
- Christopher A Carr
Wait, I missed something. Did California make it illegal to be homosexual? No, they didn't. The people of California voted to support legislation making a "marriage" definition. Marriage is a choice. I chose my relationships and so does anyone that engages in one. You can say it's not a choice, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a personal decision. Love is another topic. Attraction is also. We're not talking about laws against love, attraction, or feelings.
- Jason Nunnelley
Right, we're talking about a group of people being denied a right afforded another group of people. It's as simple as that.
- Akiva Moskovitz
But Jason, love, attraction, or feelings don't matter anymore, cause it's all about your sexual organs.
- Johnny Worthington
@cacarr [Christopher] Look at the thread's history. I said that some time ago, and for that was called a racist, or a bigot, or something. I can't care enough to reread it.
- Jason Nunnelley
Civil. Rights.
- m9m, Crone of FriendFeed
I'm in a domestic partnership contract, it's called a marriage. Derrick can go into a domestic partnership contract, but he can't call it a marriage...
- Johnny Worthington
Jason, I need to read back through it. The point is that the hang up is over a term "marriage." Get government out of the business of "marriage" and it would seem to me that the problem goes away. Grant all adults of any gender combination the right to enter into a contract with all the same legal rights and responsibilities of what is now called "marriage."
- Christopher A Carr
...then let them call it whatever they will in accordance with whatever church/religious sensibilities they do or do not have.
- Christopher A Carr
Legal and christian viewpoints be damned, you cannot grant rights to a part of the population and take away those same rights to another part. This is the most ridiculous of arguments. As a heterosexual male with a heart of gold, I broke down into uncontrollable tears watching the first news footage of gay couples being married. How can you possibly take away that happiness from two...
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- jcunwired
@jworthington Like I said originally. There's a simple option, nobody wants it. The right-wing wants to argue they are the defenders of marital sanctity. The left wants to make themselves to be the salvation of human dignity, because only they care about human beings and their right to live the lives they want. Meanwhile, people are living the way they want regardless. The state is not my friend. The state is not my god.
- Jason Nunnelley
I'm for removing the "marriage" legal language from all currently married hetero couples... If "marriage" has all this Abrahamic religious connotation, then why is government using the term in the first place?
- Christopher A Carr
Because the State don't do shit to you. You have all the freedoms afforded to you. You have the luxury of arguing over a word. Actually encounter some discrimination, in real life, then come back. Until then, you speak from a footing of sand sir.
- Johnny Worthington
Taking away the word 'marriage' is ridiculous. Instead of granting equal rights, you want to change the language so that you don't have to?
- Akiva Moskovitz
Last I checked, changing 'french fries' into 'freedom fries' didn't stick either.
- Akiva Moskovitz
@akiva Actually, I don't care. I'm telling you why some people have a hang up with it. You can keep on arguing it until you get the government on your side. Perhaps you can get them to ban Christianity and create a perfect utopia. Have fun.
- Jason Nunnelley
Right, Jason, because wanting equal rights for everyone means I want to ban Christianity? Good grief.
- Akiva Moskovitz
"All evangelists and proselytizers can eat..." I interpreted this as an angry position against believers. Did I get it wrong? Do you hate Christians? Yes or no?
- Jason Nunnelley
Of course not. Not all Christians are evangelists or proselytizers.
- Akiva Moskovitz
The thing is Jason... this has NOTHING to do with Christianity. Get over yourself. This is not about you, it's about other people. No one here wants to destroy Christianity, they want their friends to be able to call themselves 'married'... I second Akiva, good grief...
- Johnny Worthington
And I also don't really hate anyone. You seem to have an unhealthy attachment to the accusation, Jason.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva: Shit, this is not complex. As things stand, gay couples *should* be able to enter into "marriage" because the right is afforded to hetero couples. I'm for equal rights here... I want to simplify the whole thing by allowing any two adults access to the rights afforded by "marriage." The term "marriage" is unnecessary as legal language. Grant the actual rights, let heterosexual and homosexual couples call this arrangement whatever they will...
- Christopher A Carr
@Akiva, I have an interpretation that you're completely intolerant of anyone that disagrees with you.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, prove it.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Christopher, the world 'marriage' is important for equality. If separate but equal is not okay for the contract, why should we have to accept it for the language?
- joey
Jason, I disagree with Akiva on just about a billion things, and he seems to tolerate me just fine.
- joey
It's a belief, based on reading your comments in this thread. If telling people to eat a bag of whatever, calling people that discuss differing points of views (or simply more flexible points of views) bigots isn't intolerant, then I'm just going to have to realize we use a different language altogether. Since my goal is to get government off my back, I've really no dog in this fight.
- Jason Nunnelley
joey, no you don't. You agree with everything.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I think he tolerates you better than fine, Joey. :P
- Rochelle
Joey: There would be no separation in my proposal. Any two people can enter into a partnership contract...including gay couples. They may then call the arrangement whatever they like.
- Christopher A Carr
Jason, where did I call anyone a bigot?
- Akiva Moskovitz
This is tolerant commentary.
- Gavin
Christopher, thanks for clarifying.
- joey
@Akiva, you didn't.
- Jason Nunnelley
Then you haven't proven any sort of intolerance on my part. There's a difference between disagreeing with people and being intolerant of them. I did not write, 'I wish Christianity would go away,' or anything to that effect. In fact, I didn't call out all Christians at all; I snarked (and I emphasize the word 'snark' here) a particular group of Christians from a particular locality. If you're going to call me 'intolerant', you had better be able to back it up with evidence.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Oddly enough, the whole argument can be solved by christian logic. Isn't it God's job to judge what is right or wrong? If so, then WTF are evangelicals doing in the middle of it all? Or do they not believe their god is up to the task?
- jcunwired
jcunwired, evangelicals believe that it is their duty to 'save' people from sin. They believe that they are doing the work of G-d and not that they're having to pick up His slack.
- Akiva Moskovitz
That comment is bordering on hateful and rude. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean you have to be rude. You could have said it in a different tone. It seems that Christians can no longer speak their opinion without being blasted by left-wingers as being intolerant, rude or homophobic.
- Gavin
FWIW, I'm an atheist of the Sam Harris variety, and am very disturbed that Christian sensibilities are written into law to the extent that they are in the US.
- Christopher A Carr
But to do so Akiva they would need to judge, and according to what I understand about Christianity, this is a serious deviation from the role God plays in their lives.
- jcunwired
@jcunwired and @Akiva, I'd say a more accurate description of evangelicals is that they believe it is their job to expose people to the teachings they follow. I think they would take issue with someone claiming they believed they could "save people from their sin."
- Jason Nunnelley
Gavin, rude, sure; hateful, nope. Christians have the right to speak their opinion as I am allowed mine. The problem is that Christians use their opinion to bully government into doing their will at the detriment of others. When you try to push your religion on me, expect me to push back.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Jason, yeah, that's a much better framing. And my problem with that is your teachings might not be my teachings and you have as much right to force your teachings on me as I have a right to burn your house down.
- Akiva Moskovitz
@cacarr It all started with that "all men are created equal" statement. That, being the basis of legal equality, later emancipation, and continues to be at the root of equal rights law.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, except when it involves homosexuals, right?
- Akiva Moskovitz
^^touche
- jcunwired
Excuse me? Isn't the United States a democracy? Majority rules? How is this religion being pushed on you? You could say the same for same-sex marriage they are forcing their views on the rest of us. Also FYI, marriage is NOT a right. So don't try that one.
- Gavin
Christians, would you be against homosexual couples in domestic partnership contracts calling themselves "married?"
- Christopher A Carr
Gavin, so, two people of the same sex in a city that is distant from yours getting married somehow affects you? And, if marriage is not a right, then why are there bills to determine who has the right to it?
- Akiva Moskovitz
@Akiva, no I'd say that equal rights continue to be protected under the law as our interpretation of it evolves. But, the godless state is not real. It doesn't exist. You'll have to strip it of its roots to eradicate Christian culture from its practices.
- Jason Nunnelley
Christopher, nope. No more than I'm against couples from other denominations or religions or a lack thereof calling themselves 'married.' Which is to say, not at all. I am 150% in support of same sex civil marriage.
- joey
Jason, so, basically what you're saying is that it is Christians who are standing in the way of equal rights for all people?
- Akiva Moskovitz
I believe in full common law rights equivalent to marriage.
- Gavin
I was just wondering if Christians tend to be against the idea that gay couples would have legal rights, or if they are just hung up on the lexical semantics of "married."
- Christopher A Carr
@Akiva The law may have been a big mistake. I think a better way to go about it is to eliminate state control from our unions. But, I'm not a big fan of the state lately.
- Jason Nunnelley
Gavin, so the homosexuals get a consolation prize? What about religious homosexuals who want the same marriage as their heterosexual peers?
- Akiva Moskovitz
So now we equate gay marriage to godlessness.
- jcunwired
Jason, or just let people alone and stop bullying them around. Let. Them. Marry.
- Akiva Moskovitz
The problem runs even deeper than same-sex marriage. In Canada, where I live, we've had same-sex marriage for a few years. In the past few years the homosexual community has taken the burden of rewriting lots of policies to smear non-supporters of homosexuality as homophobes. I have fear of speaking my full mind on homosexuality in my school for fear of punishment.
- Gavin
Christians, would you have a problem with leaving the designation of "marriage" to your church?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, some are against both. We have a domestic partnership law here in Washington and there is a group fighting to repeal it on the grounds that it somehow invalidates heterosexual marriages and that it sends a message that the state condones homosexuality.
- joey
Gavin, that's a completely different issue.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, it's not. This is where these issues lead. Trust me the same will happen in California.
- Gavin
Gavin, so you're against gay marriage because you're afraid that you'll later be painted as a homophobe?
- Akiva Moskovitz
Damn, beat me to it.
- jcunwired
Furthermore, Gavin, it's a rather startling thought that you might think that homosexuals want equal rights just so they can use that as a platform to launch a campaign of slander against those who didn't want the homosexuals to have equal rights in the first place.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Joey, well, I suppose it's not possible to reason with those people.
- Christopher A Carr
Akiva, it's not that I think that, I know that. We've had same-sex marriage in Canada for a few years now, and their influence on government policies, even going as far as changing definitions of words is far reaching. They are demonizing religious people and painting them across the board as homophobes.
- Gavin
@cacarr I think it's clear that most churches simply don't recognize a union between two men or two women as an ordained or sanctioned union by the Creator. Christians largely appose homosexual behavior in any context, under any name. The issue is whether Christians want to police what they view as sin, and most don't. Most Christians view intoxication as a sin. Few would want to police intoxicants or intoxication on private property.
- Jason Nunnelley
Gavin: So what if there are vocal gay interest groups? I doubt -- even in Canada -- that they have anywhere near the clout of religious organizations.
- Christopher A Carr
Gavin, and haven't religious people been demonizing homosexuals as deviants who have no control over their sexuality, are child molesters, and aggressively pursue heterosexuals on a hellbent quest to anally rape them?
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, from a personal standpoint, absolutely not. I don't not look down on these people, I don't insult them, and I don't treat in a degrading way. I simply don't support their lifestyle and I express that opinion. Just because some religious people make those claims doesn't mean it applies to everyone.
- Gavin
@Akiva, by definition homosexual behavior is a deviation from the norm. The rest of that statement is just more bigoted crap. Now you're saying all believers fear rape from homosexuals. This is propaganda. And, builds a case that you've got a personal issue with religious people.
- Jason Nunnelley
Christopher, actually in the school system which I attend gay interest groups have the most say over policy.
- Gavin
Gavin, sure, but it still doesn't answer your paranoia that there's a homosexual agenda that will somehow erode your quality of life. Last I checked, homosexuals getting married won't cause you to suddenly sprout cancer or make heterosexual marriages somehow less irritating.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Jason, I was asking a question. I wasn't offering my position. Calm down, you're going to hurt yourself.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, yes it does degrade my quality of life. I am roundly criticized and attacked for my beliefs. You should spend some time with me here and you would see that homosexuals aren't the tolerant bunch they make themselves out to be.
- Gavin
Jason, who determines the norm? Check your history, homosexuality was quite the norm in the Roman Empire.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Left-handed people deviate from the statistical norm...
- Christopher A Carr
@Akiva, aren't all Washingtonians fascists? See, that's not a polite question.
- Jason Nunnelley
Gavin, no need to preach to me. I'm a religious Jew so I suffer shit constantly from smug atheists. But I would never, ever do anything to prevent atheists from having the same quality of life as everyone else.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Jason, I could give a crap less about polite. This isn't a tea party. And, for the record, most Washingtonians are stinky hippies.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, so you're supporting my statement?
- Gavin
Gavin, no, I'm not. Re-read what I wrote.
- Akiva Moskovitz
@Akiva I think the question insinuates a position. That's why I point it out. As for Rome, I'd say most were still heterosexual. The norm, by natural design, is that a man mates with a woman. This isn't complex. It's the standard in nature for most species and especially so amongst humans. I think these sort of debates are mostly fruitless. You're not going to convince most rigorously...
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- Jason Nunnelley
Akiva, can you explain how marriage relates to quality of life?
- Gavin
Jason, so you think that homosexuality is an unhealthy and negative lifestyle? For you or for the homosexuals?
- Akiva Moskovitz
Gavin, have you ever had a right taken away from you? Has your government ever told you that you don't get to have the luxuries that others are allowed? It's an issue of equality. And the onus is on you to prove that homosexual marriage somehow ruins your life not ours to prove that homosexual marraige doesn't.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Jason, denying equal rights under the law is not ignoring. The effort that was put into passing Prop 8 was tremendous. No one was ignoring homosexuals then.
- joey
Jason, and ignoring homosexuals doesn't make them go away.
- Akiva Moskovitz
So Jason & Gavin when do we get to vote on your marriage equality rights?
- sofarsoShawn
Akiva, actually you're comment about an unhealthy lifestyle brought to mind a study done in Toronto. There was a 20% prevalence of AIDS among homosexual men vs a 0.1% prevalence of AIDS among heterosexual men. No margin of error will close that gap.
- Gavin
Jason, I'm not sure anyone has ever asked anyone to "embrace and encourage" a homosexual lifestyle. I think people are simply asking for tolerance and equality.
- jcunwired
Gavin, couldn't encouraging healthy, monogamous relationships help close that gap?
- joey
joey beat me to it.
- Akiva Moskovitz
sofarsoSeán, can you show me where marriage is enshrined as a right?
- Gavin
Gavin, ask the homosexuals who are denied the right to be married about that.
- Akiva Moskovitz
joey, Akiva, so I guess you have no response to the health risk posed.
- Gavin
Sadly another blow against our great republic. Frankly at this point either we legalize Gay marriage or we abolish any legal rights granted by heterosexual marriage. Anything else is an affront to the thousands of people who died for this country.
- matthew john ernisse
It's just been codified as of today in the state of California for 1 ex.
- sofarsoShawn
Okay, so wait. Gavin, you're against gay marriage because you think it's going to pose a risk to YOUR health?
- Rochelle
Gavin, I hate to tell you this but AIDS doesn't know gender. It's a disease. It can be transmitted between heterosexuals as easily as it can be between homosexuals. Unless you think that homosexuals getting married is going to cause you to become HIV positive.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Gavin - that sounds like a health risk for the homos, not for you - not to mention I don't think it has much to do with marriage in general either.
- Sparky
Rochelle, no but in a publicly funded healthcare state like Canada's I end up having to pay for these folks.
- Gavin
Wow. Just... wow.
- Rochelle
The health risk posed by what? Gay marriage? I didn't realize that it was a pathogen.
- joey
Gavin, well, you're not black so shouldn't have pay for treatments for sickle cell anemia either, should you?
- Akiva Moskovitz
Gavin, and I have to pay for the treatment of people who want to take my rights away. Welcome to society!
- joey
BTW - what do you have to say about a 26.1% HIV positive rate among straight people in Swaziland? Does that mean straight people shouldn't get married there either?
- Sparky
I'll bet a shiny nickle that in 10 minutes I can find church in California that will happily marry a gay couple. But that isn't what the issue is, now is it. The issue is about granted spousal rights, a legal position. Perhaps, once the emotional outrage has subsided logic will find a way to obtain these very rights which I firmly believe is a) the goal, b) very doable and c) the morally correct stance.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
from fftogo
Gavin - we pay for it down here too. Just because insurance is privatized it still has to break even at a minimum. When large numbers of people get sick insurance companies raise everyones rates.
- Sparky
Akiva, sickle cell anemia is not limited to African-Americans.
- Gavin
AIDS isn't limited to gays.
- matthew john ernisse
Dammit. matthew beat me to it.
- Akiva Moskovitz
But a 2000% difference isn't a coincidence.
- Gavin
where did you pull out those statistics from?
- D. Eda Goze
A study done in Toronto.
- Gavin
Link to study, please.
- Rochelle
Gavin, you still haven't been able to support your connection between a disease and marriage.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Yes, I'm looking for it.
- Gavin
Take your time. Please.
- jcunwired
Okay, pretend that I'm taking the AIDS argument seriously for a moment...again, wouldn't encouraging healthy, monogamous relationships (as well as bringing health issues and therefore education out of the closet, pun intended) help fight against it?
- joey
Yes, and what Akiva said. Does this study say that gay marriage causes AIDS?
- Rochelle
You know, Gavin has convinced me. I'm now against gay marriage AND infectious disease.
- Sparky
I agree with you MVB.
- Steve
link? is it only for western cultures? what about Africa. it's funny that it does not sound like a legit "study done in Toronto".
- D. Eda Goze
Frankly who cares? It's not like letting people enjoy equal rights is going to change anything for you. You could say white heterosexual couples suffer from angst and divorce at a rate of 2000% over gay couples. Who cares, if we make anything a state sponsored 'right' that is afforded any legal status what so ever, it is either afforded to everyone equally or it's not. Anything less and you might as well legislate against interracial couples, or interfaith.
- matthew john ernisse
As I have stated earlier it is more about the future consequences of these actions then this direct result. If you read my earlier comments, you will see what I mean. Also I can't find the study right now, but I will continue to look. It may be on my other pc.
- Gavin
Matthew, if evangelicals win this battle, your statement may not be too far from the truth.
- jcunwired
What kind of wine do you serve with bowl of dicks?
- Matthew DeVries
Global HIV infection rates by country: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input...
- Sparky
Matthew... White of course :P
- Johnny Worthington
I fail to see how marriage leads to AIDS but I'm engaged, so I'm getting a little bit concerned. Somebody help me out, here.
- joey
Anyways, I got into this discussion because of the original message. I feel that if you can't at least be respectful of the other side I don't think you deserve my attention.
- Gavin
Joey - when you get married you are statistically more likely to share needles with your spouse. That's your AIDS correlation.
- Sparky
Gavin - I've know Akiva long enough to know he only says "bag of dicks" with the utmost of respect.
- Sparky
Gavin, I'm all for civil discussion, but why should I have to be gracious and respect those who show no respect for others?
- joey
Sparkles, oh thank goodness we prefer inhalants then! (UM, IN CASE MY SISTER SEES THIS, I'M KIDDING!)
- joey
Gavin, thanks for giving me an assload of the attention I didn't deserve then. Just goes to show how awesome I am.
- Akiva Moskovitz
HAHA, YOUR JOKE IS FUNNY JOEY. PLEASE PASS THE NITROUS AND SODOMY.
- Sparky
@joey Don't show respect for people that disagree with you. It helps to galvanize them and supports their position. It makes your position look like an inflexible and reactionary position. There's no hope for common ground, so it tells them up front they should dig in and defend themselves.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, I was tremendously respectful in conveying my opinions to you. You countered by telling me that as minority, my views (and religion) don't matter. That's not common ground...that's one side oppressing another because they have the upper hand at the moment. Why should those being oppressed have to give in and settle for less? And for the record, I AM inflexible with regard to equal rights.
- joey
You could solidly argue because gay relationships are discriminated against it forces them in the closet and contributes to those factors of promiscuous, anonymous sex. No one wants to be an outsider. Whereas if it wasn't considered an "abomination" as the religious fundy's claim and gay relationships through marriage or otherwise were maybe not the norm but at least acceptable, it would help to prevent HIV/AIDS which I see, the higher %s, as being largely due to the discrimination we've just seen today.
- sofarsoShawn
@joey You're applying meaning to my statements that weren't intended. I said this country's language and laws are based on protestant beliefs and traditions. I said nothing about your faith or your personal views, let alone their value or worth. I'm dealing in reality. Exposing history and facts doesn't make me a bigot. Calling me a bigot (not accusing you personally) doesn't change those facts.
- Jason Nunnelley
To they who say that @joey is wrong - if the framers, the lawmakers, the founders of our society thought that the sactity of the marriage extended to the word 'marriage' then they should not have wrote it into secular law. The term for the ultimate binary partnership between 2 people should not have used a holy word, they should have used a legal-ish word. They defiled and bastardized...
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- Matthew DeVries
Jason, I haven't used the word bigot once in this 300-post conversation (as you noted), so I have no idea what you're talking about.
- joey
50 state us estimates, Male-to-male sexual contact: 487,695 Injection drug use: 255,859 High-risk heterosexual contact: 176,157 that is not a %2000 difference. Also for the diagnoses in 2007 Male-to-male sexual contact: 16,749 High-risk heterosexual contact: 11,111 . That is not a big difference. Also %59.2 of aids patients are black. so they should not get married as well right?? aids...
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- D. Eda Goze
Joey - not that it belittles your statements or beliefs, but how are you a minority?
- Sparky
Matthew, you make a good case against my proposal....
- Christopher A Carr
Sparky, in the context of this conversation, he was saying that the Catholic definition of marriage doesn't matter because Catholics are a minority.
- joey
!!!!! Isn't Catholicism the #2 religion in the world? !!!!!
- Sparky
@Matthew DeVries Ever since the patriarchs allowed for a writ of divorce the marriage term has been belittled. The New Testament is so confusing because people don't know what the word means, so when it's used in its secular context the readers often misunderstand that it's not talking about a spiritually acceptable marriage, but a union recognized by the patriarchs, then the religious leaders, then the state.
- Jason Nunnelley
If not #1?
- Sparky
Only if you don't count "protestants" as 1 faith, which in a debate between the catholics and any other protestant faith, they'll always stand together against Rome.
- Matthew DeVries
To be clear here, on the issue it wasn't strictly due to Christian evangelicals, they may have spearheaded the campaign but they were able to ally themselves with largely many of the immigrant communities of the Muslim and Hindu faith who believed/argued as much that this was a "Family" values issue. It's a "fundy" issue so to speak.
- sofarsoShawn
I thought Islam was closely followed by Catholics followed by Pretestants
- Sparky
@joey What I said is that Catholics didn't found the country, set the law, or establish the basis of its origin. Protestant Englishmen established the language. That's why it's called "English Common Law." Our law is built upon that law and its origins. And, yes, it comes from Catholic heritage, but it also comes from Judaism and we don't forbid eating certain foods as "clean" and "unclean."
- Jason Nunnelley
My grandmother is a 94 year old Catholic's Catholic, still going to church 4 days a week. She supports gay marriage because what she gained from her religion is tolerance, and as mentioned before, she feels as though only God has the right to judge.
- jcunwired
I am deeply saddened by this decision in Cali. I am glad to see that the Friendfeed community are the good peeps that I knew them to be. Legislating exclusion is wrong and a very slippery slope.
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Jason, that's exactly my point, though. Definitions evolve over time and if Protestants can redefine marriage from Catholics (who redefined from Jews) then why can't the secular definition evolve?
- joey
I can clear up the HIV infection discrepancy issue somewhat. HIV is more easily transmitted via anal sex than it is by vaginal intercourse. However, this is not as much the case in much of Africa due to the prevalence of certain parasitic infections the create a situation of increased blood exchange during vaginal intercourse. And single gay men get laid more frequently because, well,...
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- Christopher A Carr
American law is as such: Magna Carta, English Common Law, Constitution, state contitutions, amendments, regulations, social understanding, cultural interpretations, binding legal decisions in recognized courts.
- Jason Nunnelley
Christianity is the biggest in the world. Roman Catholics are the biggest single christian faith, but they are much smaller than the whole of the non-Catholic Christians counted together.
- Matthew DeVries
And Jason, the "major faith" of the founders was Church of England - which as a child of a Catholic and and Anglican, I can tell you, they're same fucking thing, just one has a Pope.
- Matthew DeVries
The court did not legislate exclusion today
- Steve
Matthew, that reminds me of a joke...
- joey
You know, if the framers of the constitution had intended the bible (and a given person's individual preferred translation and interpretation thereof) to be the source of our complete sense of normalcy and ethics, we'd have written the law in terms of the bible. It's a perfectly valid way to frame a government, especially if you provide a lengthy text of interpretations, a la sharia...
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- Wirehead
Church of England = Diet Catholic, all the sins for half the guilt? That one joey?
- Matthew DeVries
Haha, no but I like that. It's 'Why can't Anglicans win at chess? Because they can't tell the difference between a Bishop and a Queen!'
- joey
Christopher Carr - WTF? Did you read a pamphlet about AIDS in 1989 and just quit learning about it since then? All of those are 80's myths about AIDS, with no actual peer reviewed data to back it up.
- Matthew DeVries
The information about associations between parasite load and vaginal HIV transmission in Africa is relatively new.
- Christopher A Carr
@Matthew what @joey was saying was similar, except she wanted me to recognize that since her faith only recognizes a Catholic Church ordained union and yet still calls us condemned sorts married, that we pseudo-Christians should be cool calling same-sex couples married. The problem here is that non-Catholics view marriage as including non-believers, believers, divorced people, etc. The...
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- Jason Nunnelley
Jason - if the framers, the lawmakers, the founders of our society thought that the sactity of the marriage extended to the word 'marriage' then they should not have wrote it into secular law. The term for the ultimate binary partnership between 2 people should not have used a holy word, they should have used a legal-ish word. They defiled and bastardized their own sacrament and now the...
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- Matthew DeVries
Furthermore, over eighty million dollars was blown on this stupid law. Do we want to talk about the *good* that eighty million dollars could have done instead of going to taking rights away from people who happen to prefer the company of the same gender?
- Wirehead
Christopher, link to article or source about the "parasite load and vaginal HIV transmission" please.
- Rochelle
Jason, see what I did there? We're going have "The" debate, not "your" debate. You will be held to debate team standards, which includes, not allowing Straw Men.
- Matthew DeVries
@Steve If it isn't exclusion than what is it?
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Jason, I don't in any way view non-Catholics as condemned. That's not the worldview I'm looking through. I was trying to illustrate that definitions are not owned by any one group. Also, while the Magna Carta certainly influenced the United States, it doesn't actually have legal bearing here. Our legal system also diverges from common law; it's not the sole source. We have constitutional supremacy.
- joey
@Matthew DeVries You're dealing with "should" and I'm dealing with "is." My country wasn't founded by people that believe in the same things I believe in, largely. They owned slaves, traded in religious colloquialisms. They largely didn't practice what many modern Americans would consider sound Christianity. But, we deal with the laws and the culture we're handed by history and heritage.
- Jason Nunnelley
mar·riage [ márrij ] (plural mar·riages) noun Definition: 1. legal relationship between spouses: a legally recognized relationship, established by a civil or religious ceremony, between two people who intend to live together as sexual and domestic partners mar·riage [ márrij ] (plural mar·riages) It's not a religious term.
- m9m, Crone of FriendFeed
Jason - if the framers, the lawmakers, the founders of our society thought that the sactity of the marriage extended to the word 'marriage' then they should not have wrote it into secular law. The term for the ultimate binary partnership between 2 people should not have used a holy word, they should have used a legal-ish word. They defiled and bastardized their own sacrament and now the...
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- Matthew DeVries
@m9m Why two people? Isn't that closed minded?
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, this is a debate over homosexual equal rights, not polygamy.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Mawwage. Mawwage is what bwings us togethew today. Mawwage, that bwessed awwangement, that dweam within a dweam And wove, twue wove, wiww fowwow you fowevah So tweasuwe youw wove And do you, Pwincess Buwwercwup,
- Matthew DeVries
@Akiva Sorry, I didn't realize there were rules. It seems to me if you're going to require people accept a definition of a word that the majority feel means something you don't like, you may as well clean the word up completely and remove all limitations from it.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, I'm just trying to prevent you from derailing this discussion by bringing in practices that have nothing to do with homosexual equal rights.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Christopher Carr - LOL - Yes, all the words that you said are quoted in the articles linked, but not even remotely in the order that you claimed they did, to convey any message remotely supporting your conclusion.
- Matthew DeVries
Jason, if you want to start a debate about polygamy, start a new post.
- Rochelle
@Akiva, you're not convincing anyone to believe anything they don't already believe. This discussion isn't changing anyone's position. @Rochelle I will abstain from this discussion though. I don't like the rules. See, that's how easy it is. Someone here should take notes.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, let's also debate the US postal service and their rates, while we're at it. Because, you know, that has as much to do with gay marriage as polygamy does.
- Rochelle
Matthew, what are you taking issue with exactly?
- Christopher A Carr
Well, you do realize, Jason, that over time we've moved from a culture where gays were afraid to come out of the closet at all to where we are today. So, no, the debates on homosexuality have born fruit. Just not in the direction you want them to.
- Wirehead
Call me when we get to man-goat marriage. I have some input for that.
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
from fftogo
Matthew: "ONE of the biggest mysteries of HIV is why the virus spreads so readily via heterosexual sex in Africa, but not elsewhere. A study in monkeys suggests parasitic worms may be to blame" : http://www.newscientist.com/article...
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, what exactly does that have to do with gay marriage equality?
- Rochelle
Jason, when did I ever say my intention was to convince anyone of anything? I'm just horsing around.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Rochelle, it's a long thread... one of the Christians in the conversation was bringing up HIV infection rate discrepancies between heteros and gays...
- Christopher A Carr
Rochelle, if the gays get married we all get AIDS. Didn't you see them state that as fact? Case closed!
- Sparky
Also, Jason, your trying to derail this topic has as much to do with my intentions as polygamy does gay marriage.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Rochelle: While I'm on the same side as Matthew on this political issue, he was taking me to task because I think he would prefer that there were no differences in anal and vaginal sex as regards HIV transmission.
- Christopher A Carr
Akiva - in all seriousness I think the two are related. I think a basic human right is love - I don't care who it's between; a man and a women, two men, two women, three men, whatever - so long as it only involves consenting adults what harm is letting people go off and love each other? If someone has two partners should only one of them be allowed to visit them in the hospital on their deathbed?
- Sparky
But this is off-topic at this point...
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, you do realize that straight people can have anal sex as well, right?
- Rochelle
Rochelle: pics or it didn't happen!
- Sparky
Akiva: techno-hippie, thankyouverymiuch.
- Sparky
Sparky, TWSS
- Rochelle
Of course I do, Rochelle. Blood exposure is the issue, not sexual orientation per se...
- Christopher A Carr
+1 Sparky - twice!
- jcunwired
Uh. I accidentally deleted my last comment. I called Sparky a hippie. Because it's true. He's stinky, too. Just like a Washingtonian.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, I grew up in Eugene... talk about hippies.
- Christopher A Carr
Hey now - of the many hippy traits I have a strong scent isn't one of them. I'm kinda anal about hygiene and am allergic to fragrances.
- Sparky
Haha. Sparky said "anal" and "hygiene" in the same sentence.
- Rochelle
I still can't stand the smell of patchouli...
- Christopher A Carr
I have good anal hygiene too, but I wasn't really going to trumpet that horn on that one without your prompting Rochelle.
- Sparky
Pics or it didn't happen?
- Rochelle
Awesome. You know that one is going to be the post that comes back to haunt you.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
GREAT WE'VE TOTALLY DERAILED THE SUBJECT
- Akiva Moskovitz
The only thing worse than a hippie from Washington is a hippie from Oregon.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Wow, who could have seen that coming?!
- joey
BACK ON TASK: evangelists are dick-bag eaters, everyone else hates on the homophobes.
- Sparky
DON'T TALK SHIT ABOUT OREGON. Now finish your bag of dicks.
- Christopher Harley
@Joey, should you really talk about something coming on a thread about eating bags of dicks? ;-)
- Joey Gibson
Hahaha. Apparently no.
- joey
I grew up with hippies, they aren't stinky.
- jcunwired
Just stinky nug. :)
- Mathew A. Koeneker
Now that's a BIG gulp
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Wait - stinky nug? Does this provide the tie necessary to say gay marriage == increased drug uses in minors?
- Sparky
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand scene. Thank you everyone for playing!
- Akiva Moskovitz
This might be one of those test cases for **** can get a lot of responses. :-)
- moon_shadow70
To be very honest, the response this thing got completely surprised me. It was a throw-away comment, a moment of frustration, and a chance to bring in a little aggressive levity to hopefully make a few people chuckle.
- Akiva Moskovitz
It's now your post with the most comments. Very telling that it beat out The Atoll of Succulent Areolae.
- Christopher Harley
Dang. :(
- Akiva Moskovitz
Damn almost 400 comments, that's a lot of dick eating, especially with the bag full conversion.
- Steve C
Really, he had us all at dicks.
- Sparky
Actually I think I have the solution, one that should be acceptable to Jason Nunnelly. Let's make same-sex marriage legal. People can get married to another person of whatever gender. It's marriage, legally, just like different-sex marriage. But written into the law should be a stipulation that people like Jason and members of his church should be permitted, without penalty, to use...
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- Nathan Rein
@nathan and create an new epithet? cause that's the connotation that word will have in those circles. It's a covenant for the love between the people getting married in the eyes of law, that they are effectively one and can speak for the other when situations arise where they can't do so themselves - whether that covenant has extra things associated with it in someones faith is neither...
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- alphaxion
<hijack>Gavin, out of curiosity, do you live in Abbotsford, BC or in the Fraser Valley?</hijack> I live in Canada - Vancouver to be exact - and I've never seen any evidence of the kind of anti-Christian rhetoric from LGBT communities that you speak of.
- cecily
One doesn't have to participate in something to support that particular cause. I'm not gay, yet I support gay marriage and gay adoption. I'm not a toker, yet I support legalization of marijuana. Why is it then that making an argument in support of reasonable and responsible gun ownership means everyone assumes I own a gun?
Iván Abrego, Richard pancakhaus Walker, Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah and 95 other people liked this
Do you own a gun? Are their guns in your household?
- Brian Sullivan
because they can't comprehend anyone not owning a gun to support such a position. I own no fire arms either, but I also believe in private gun ownership
- RAPatton
you said toker, hee hee
- anna sauce
I'm with Tina on all of this.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Too often people assume you take a position solely based on your personal lifestyle. Principles aren't about ourselves, though. Most of the time they're about others' rights. I think people forget that.
- phil baumann
Brian, I have never owned a gun. There was never one in my household growing up. However, I married into a 'gun family' and since Dave is a hunter there are now guns in my house.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
"ditto"
- Adam Turetzky
The Rule is, You are not really a gun nut until you own 10,000 or more rounds of ammo for each of the 4 weapons you own.
- Moved to Facebook
from fftogo
I don't own a gun either, and I generally think it's a bad idea to have one in the house. But I would want the right to have one if I felt I needed it to protect myself and family.
- Cristo
Ignorance basically Tina :)
- Charlotte M
I don't own a gun either and couldn't agree with you more, Tina (on all said issues)
- Kelly W.
Well I don't own a gun and I don't agree with you, but I also don't assume you own a gun and I think you have every right to argue your position. It's definetly a positive and really a requirment to be able to think from others point of view and beyond your immediate situation.
- Steve C
being someone who woke up to see a man holding a gun to her mother's head (and yes then they shot my grandfather), or someone whose good friend shot himself in front of his best friends while playing with a gun (yes, not a good idea -but that's my point you shouldn't have a gun in the house). I am against guns (I would say I am a bit traumatized too). I also think you have every right...
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- D. Eda Goze
Wow, Deniz, that is intense.
- anna sauce
Deniz, I can definitely appreciate how experiences like that would shape one's opinion. Similar experiences are what led some people I know to take firearms training and self defense courses. They are two different ways of dealing with what were very similar traumas...
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Hey I support gun ownership, even though I find most gun owners to be repulsive rednecks. The 10% that aren't seem fine though. (And no, I no longer own a gun)
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
Tutivillus, I've heard very similar "backhanded compliments" in my area but directed at gays and lesbians. I find neither one appropriate or helpful.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I grew up in a household full of guns and was taught gun safety and to never play with them. My "repulsive redneck" family is full of hunters, farmers and livestock owners and there's never been a gun accident in my family. However, I don't own a gun and don't want one, but I don't think less of my dad or my uncles because they have gun cabinets full of them.
- Trish R
I usually don't make hard decisions on stuff like this unless Hilary Duff tells me what to say.
- Lokei Atikus™®
I'm of the same mind, Tina, that one can support a "cause" or "idea" without necessarily being immediately involved. I am not gay, but believe that one has the right in this country to choose their own lifestyle...mind, I'm a Christian as well, so I'm REALLY rare! lol On the gun issue, I'm a tad odd, because I LOVE guns and think they're totally cool...but I think only certain types of...
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- Carlton Hackett
1UP Tina...I'm totally on board with you.
- Derrick
LOL cuz you support it, goes with the territory ~ & this can be attributed mostly due to gun ownership via the NRA with it's frightening & lax policies. You can argue responsible gun ownership but the fact remains that there is too much room for abuse which is why it should be more strictly regulated.
- sofarsoShawn
I don't own any guns, but I do have two tickets to the gun show...
- Jim Norris
I don't associate guns with redneck. We're in So Cal. Guns are all around us usually in the hands of what would be considered children if they weren't holding guns. That's where my position comes from. But respect the differences of opinion, and hope others can. I don't agree with the NRA 99% of the time as it doesn't seem to apply to our "urban" life.
- Steve C
Totally agree, Tina, well said.
- Michelle Martinez
Jim Norris time for you to post your beefcake birthday picture again.
- Steve C
For the same reason that supporting reasonable and responsible gun control laws leads some to believe that we want to take their guns away from them. Reactionary responses abound on both sides of this issue.
- Jeff Jones
@FFing Enigma (aka Tina) It's called "sarcasm". Neither a backhand, insult nor a compliment. To be honest, I find this whole argument ridiculous. It's in the Constitution, gun ownership isn't going anywhere. The hysteria surrounding both sides of the argument is hilarious to me. I don't own a gun because I just don't need one. If the time comes that I do, I'll get one - I know they'll...
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- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
Seriously, though, it seems mostly like a rural vs. urban thing. Carrying a shotgun around the forest seems very different than carrying one down a busy street.
- Jim Norris
Whether your right to own guns is in the Constitution is open to debate because of how poorly worded that clause is. Don't hang your hat on those words. The right Supreme Court could very well overturn what you think is a right.
- Alex Scoble
Oh, and if you look at my posts, I very, very supportive of gay rights. Relax. And I live in Utah. Many a redneck with guns here. In fact we just legalized the carrying of guns in cars (hand guns), concealed, without concealed firearms permits. Now, why in the hell would you want that? Untrained morons riding around with guns in their gloveboxes. Hmmm...
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
Alex, get serious. Try, just *try* to overturn it. What do you think would happen?
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
The thing is, by the time you realize you want/need a gun it is too late. The even which caused you to want one has already occured. Up here(Montreal, Canada), home invasions are the "thing" right now. The victims wished they had a gun when it happened, but it's too late now. So, what is one to do?
- Chris Jones
from twhirl
When you are serious about this conversation, let me know.
- Alex Scoble
When I talk about my support for gun ownership, people start saying I'm part of the hateful, religiously driven Conservative Party, when I'm not. People just like to have knee-jerk reactions, Tina.
- Chris, Taskerrific Guy
And this is why the whole debate cracks me up. It's a fools argument. Chris. I've had a gun pulled on me. Twice. I'm here. @Alex. I am serious.
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
I just figured you were pro-gun since you live in the hill-country :-P
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
wait, don't you live in south carolina? maybe that's why ppl assume you own a gun ;)
- chrisofspades
A lot of people, probably a frighteningly large number of people, operate almost exclusively out of direct self interest. Not enlightened self interest - I mean level one on Kohlberg's moral development scale. These people assume that because they only act out of self interest, so does everyone else. They can't see themselves lifting a finger for a cause that doesn't directly benefit them, and don't imagine that anyone else does.
- Eric P
I live near Toronto, which has been hysterical about gun violence for at least four years now. I'm not a fan of people running about capping each other with handguns, but I do support private gun ownership and I'm certainly no fan of gun registries. Especially for rifles and other long-barrel firearms.
- Chris, Taskerrific Guy
No, you aren't serious. If you were serious, you would be quite worried about the Supreme Court ultimately doing what I suggested in order to allow for better gun control laws. If you hang your hat on the 2nd amendment, eventually you will end up with some half ass gun ownership system in this country because it's worded so poorly that it can be interpreted to either support gun ownership or to support that guns need be supplied only for members of state militias.
- Alex Scoble
It's a fluke that my brothers and I weren't around when Jane Creba got shot on Boxing Day '05 in downtown Toronto; we were right in that part of the city (in fact, walked by where the shooting happened) no more than half an hour before the incident, and had got on the subway for perhaps 15-20 minutes before it happened.
- Chris, Taskerrific Guy
What I find the most amazing (or amusing) about this thread, is that the original statement Tina made was more about judging a book by its cover rather than the gun issue in particular. Which, I believe, is really on point if you want to understand how easily distracted people get when you attach an emotionally-charged topic to it.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Tutivillus, you might have been joking but without an emoticon or other indication, I have no way of knowing that, hence my response.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
@Alex - I don't wear a hat. ;)
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
actually, Chris C, I was talkin to Tina
- chrisofspades
@Tina: I hope I made proper use of the emoticon
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
FFing Enigma (aka Tina) Good enough, I'll use one to indicate my tone in the future. Apologies.
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
Yeah, because you hung it on the most ill worded part of the Constitution. If people are really for gun ownership rights in this country, they should be working to get the Constitution reworded to something a lot more unequivocal like "All citizens shall have the right to buy and bear firearms" with some language giving exceptions to the rule (mentally ill, criminals, near schools, etc.). Until you are working towards that, don't talk about how much of a guns rights advocate you are.
- Alex Scoble
the clause is the right to bear arms, but a tank is a form of arms, no? so are nuclear weapons. so are hand grenades? do we draw a line?
- tiffany
As a Canadian, the US mentality about gun laws baffle me. The concept of legally owning a handgun and having it stored in your dresser blows my mind and seems so surreal. And don't get me started on Michael Moore's misleading portrayal of Canadian gun ownership.
- Chris Luckhardt
This is a highly controversial topic which can go forever.
- ashish
No...the clause is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
- Alex Scoble
Last time I tried to buy a tank, the bank wouldn't go for it. ;)
- Chris Jones
from twhirl
What about that sentence says anything about the right to bear arms outside of being in a militia?
- Alex Scoble
Alex, what about it says anything about being IN a milita?
- LogEx
That's the problem, it's vague to us now. We can't go by those few words alone. We have to rely on 200+ years of legal precedent, etc.
- LogEx
It's one sentence, LE. Whether you separate that out in to separate ideas or not is highly open to interpretation, ergo if you are for personal gun rights you should fight to have the wording changed.
- Alex Scoble
So is this post about supporting issues that may not directly impact you (gay right, legalization of drugs, etc.) or about debating gun ownership again?
- Rochelle
I think it depends on who you ask, Rochelle =/
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Thank you, Rochelle. I think that since it's the most volatile issue (and probably the one that most directly prompted this post), it's the easiest example to jump on.
- LogEx
Paperwork or not, legal or not. If you want a gun bad enough, you'll get one, period.
- Chris Jones
from twhirl
Because people like to avoid real arguments that they have no good rebuttal for, so they try to rebut based on red herrings like that. Everyone, including the anti-drug folks, know they have a bad case if they have to argue the facts and figures, so they go for the "moral turpitude" tactic and poison the well.
- Neal Jansons
That's true of anything, thus not a very good argument. We could say the same about North Korea: "UN or not, world politics or not, if they want nuclear weapons bad enough they'll get them, so let's not worry and go eat cake".
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Gun ownership is hardly the most volatile issue we could be discussing here...it's about the most boring one too...I'm not sure why I got sucked in to it. It's such a non-issue in our current legal system.
- Alex Scoble
I wholly agree with the sentiment of your post though, Tina. there are positions or causes worth supporting, for the good of society, even if they don't impact you personally.
- LogEx
Archie Bunker once said something like if there were not any guns, they'd be throwing 'em out of windows. hehe
- Chris Jones
from twhirl
Alex is right in that this issue is often brought up to distract. My thoughts on the matter are the same as for that other "hot button" issue that is often brought up: I support the right, but I think we should strongly discourage (we, society, not we, government with the force of law) the exercising of that right by most people.
- invariant - farewell FF
Owner two handguns and two rifles. Used for target practice only and now for safety since I live in a remote location. No kids so gun is within reach as well as the bullets in event of a home invasion. If pushed I would use it. I also know how to reload the shells.
- Janet
But Alex...I'm not an advocate. I could give a rat's ass either way. I actually fairly neutral on the issue. I simply get a kick out of the argument.
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
My interpretation of the 2nd amendment is that people both have the right to own and operate firearms, as well as to form militias. It's not saying that you can only have guns for the purpose of a militia.
- Chris, Taskerrific Guy
Notice how you used the word "interpretation" in that comment, Chris. It would be nice to make sure that that clause was much less open to "interpretation", in my opinion.
- Alex Scoble
Alex...that "interpretation" thing is where the self-interest usually comes in. People need to "interpret" using proper epistemological frameworks in order for those interpretations be useful, and if this country ever got seriously interested in epistemological coherency and justification, the whole system, including the Constitution, would fall apart. Exactly what reason, other than...
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- Neal Jansons
I don't think the 2nd is all that unclear, frankly. Because a nation won't last long without a standing army ("a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state"), and all the potential for abuse that it implies (hey, we'd just fought a revolution against a standing army), the citizens must be permitted to arm themselves in case their government or its army goes...
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- Alan Chamberlain
While that is true, I just don't think it should matter. We are no longer just done with fighting a revolution and we need to get over our national oppositional defiant disorder which goes along with that; it's childish and self-destructive. And modern warfare is so different from that picture...is a shotgun, an uzi even, hell 50 uzis, gonna matter at all if our government goes rogue?...
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- Neal Jansons
from IM
Never mind that you don't need a license to build IEDs...and the government can't stop the sale of everything that can be used to make them.
- Alex Scoble
+Neal -- We've definitely passed the mark of being able to use the 2nd as (what I believe to be) it's original leverage against leadership gone wacko. After all the events of the last 10 years, it really won't be too hard a push for the US to be a much more obvious police state, or at least to care even less that it is becoming harder to hide. It's also getting hard to hide that we let them do this.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Let them? We asked them! We made them do it! We are "them". The enemy is us. The minute, hell, the second, we had an excuse to jump right down into the pit of jingoism, racism, nationalism, and paranoia we spent decades getting out of, we took it. Humans, as a whole, only want to be civilized in their fantasies; the real thing takes too much effort.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
LOL. I'm trying really hard to be upbeat, man. And I was get the idea *I* come across a bit gloomy. Shit. :-D (but you're right, of course)
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
But, hey, if we're the smart people, and we're taking up all this bandwidth, isn't there something more helpful we can do to try to herd folks in the, uh, 'correct' direction? especially without sounding gloomy and proselytizing?
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
It's easy enough to get people's hackles up. Now to just find a way to direct that energy for *good*
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
No, all the real bandwidth is taken up by watching all the LOST episodes over again. :)
- Cristo
I want to. I keep talking about social media and online technologies as a way to be superheroes, but then the next kill app comes out and everyone runs off. We are smart, but not all of us want to fight the good fight.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
LOL yeah, we all have our favorite anesthesia, I suppose
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
@Neal, I think people all pretty much know what's right, and we all come together pretty easily in times of obvious (and dire) need over basics. But especially in a tight economy like this, people are much more afraid of it costing more than they have or are willing to part with; not just money, but even time.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
I'm thinking more of a distributed system of usefulness that won't impinge on the status quo, but add to it.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
See, and that where any attempt at real progress always fails...no one wants to mess up the status quo, even though the status is not quo. Don't rock the boat when you are in it, eh?
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Just thinking it's much easier to catch flies with honey than a hammer
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Trish, seems you have a issue with labels. Rednecks, Southern, Gun Support, etc... At a certain age you would think that we would learn that the world is imperfect and there isn't much you can do to fix it no matter how much you "Rage against the machine" except change yourself on how you deal with things. Maybe that change will influence others. Peace.
- CW™
Except we aren't catching flies and there are people with a vested interest in things staying as they are with a lot of hammers. It might be easier, but it's not a winning strategy.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
CW, everyone has issues with labels, don't kid yourself otherwise. It's no longer acceptable to apply once common labels to women, Jews, blacks, hispanics, Chinese, Japanese, Polish, Italians, etc etc etc. But calling southerners stupid rednecks is one of the last acceptable stereotypes.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
No, it's no longer acceptable to some people because other people engaged in identity politics, and when white, rural, mostly male, mostly evangelical folks start playing with identity politics we get sites like Stormfront. The situation is not equal...losing your privilege (read: private law) is not the same as being oppressed. Also, cultures are not the same as races. The south, west,...
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- Neal Jansons
from IM
@Neal, I'm on board with the notion that this system is far too broken to be able to use it to fix itself anymore. Whining about how it happened, or when, or who, blah blah blah, only sustains the gap between whatever it was and the solution, which is where we've grown accustomed to be, apparently even preferring it, in some Orwellian/Stepfordian kind of way. Don't like the bots. And...
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- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
I'm sorry, I don't think either argument has much strength when applied to cultures. Biology, yes, abstract creations of our minds, no. There is no reason to accept , a priori, that diversity is superior to homogeneity or vice versa in a culture, and the assumption that it is represents your own biases, not some enlightened understanding you have access to as a feature of the era. This...
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- Neal Jansons
from IM
I also agree it seems way far out of reach. But then I think of how even just 30 years ago, the likelihood of the possibility for a black man or woman to become president was much less than it had been 10 years earlier. Backlash is hard to predict in scope, but not in principle. Too hard to anticipate, I guess.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Instead of the "before we were dumb and brutish, but now we are smart and enlightened" idea that is always so popular, we need to accept that we are always about three weeks from being morons (it's true, keep a diary and you will understand), and just try to have the most pleasant and least damaging buffoonery possible.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
And I'm not suggesting that the tension be denied or ignored or stifled. In fact, in a physical-world sense, it is my notion that that same energy can be channeled to something that adds to the betterment of the present, and hopefully, at least hedge a bit for a future we likely won't live long enough to see. But, we actually might. People are funny, and we've never been in this position before, so it's hard to say categorically what any group might pop up with.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Heh. I think we're getting enlightened but we're still pretty ham-fisted when it comes to GTD.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Having different stupid and unreasoned prejudices is not the same as beating prejudice. We traded blacks for homosexuals, women for atheists, and the real issue...the tension of living in groups while being individuals, always produces out-groups and in-groups. The root of the problem, the tensions between the desires of the self vs the desires of the other, is ignored while we focus on one cause or another, just to replace it with some new cause.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Again with the problem. I'm looking for solution ideas. Otherwise, is this all just a spectator sport?
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Every era's youth thinks that it is becoming enlightened, and thinks the older generation were backward. Read primary texts and you find that everybody always thinks they are the cutting edge. And as far as "solutions"...you want something that doesn't disturb the status quo, thus exclude from the beginning any solution that could actually change anything...the problem is the status quo being screwed; how do you fix it without impinging upon it?
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Change is disturbing. I'm just talking about minimizing it enough to make it a little easier to adapt so we don't have to wait for all the baby-boomers and Cold War-era people to die off before things get better.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
You know, all that pebble-in-the-pond kinda nonsense that cool people think is too trite to be useful.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Myself included, of course
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
I am not saying we have to wait for them to die off, but at the same time we can firmly say we are not going to continue to structure our activity according to the past methods. By taking up their rhetoric, by granting them the respect they do not accord others, by even bothering to continue discussing their issues, we are perpetuating the problem.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
All that pebble in the pond crap comes from those having to reassure other and themselves that their half-measures accomplish something equal to the ferocity of their counterparts. Rome was not built with a bake-sale, and historically all change has come at the end of a sword or the economic/political equivalent.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Well, history seems to be telling all kinds of stories of the usefulness of Rome as any kind of example. Obviously, basing our Western ideas on it has resulted in abject FAIL.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Again...biases vs. fact. You want to believe that there is a gentler, kinder, more human and civilized way to make things better. I am claiming that the data suggests otherwise and that to exclude aggressive strategies a priori is just as bad as the prior generation excluding peaceful or conciliatory solutions a priori.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Rome lasted pretty damn long. The US has only been around about 235 years.
- Cristo
I'm not sure where I abandoned aggressive strategies. I'm only asserting that the alternatives may have come into their own time.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
We say that a lot, but most of our ideas are not based on Roman life or culture at all. I think it is a hero-worship thing. If 300 had come out as a novel in the 1700s we would most likely be identifying with Sparta without looking anything like it.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
America is mostly based on liberal philosophy like Mill. The Romans would have thought we were insane.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
What makes our love for aggressive, competitive sports much different than Sparta again? Aside from the no lions eating people part, I mean. But now we have movies for that. It's not escaped me that we've only stepped out of the cave for about 10K years or so; the beast is pretty pervasive.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
I guess it's a bit bothersome that it sounds as tho enlightenment = weakness in the argument.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Doesn't even the beast desire to evolve in more than a physical sense? Are we there yet?
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Evolve? Evolution does not imply linearity or progress. We evolve just as much as we must to not get killed before we reproduce. If we wish to progress, an abstract concept, we first must agree on the vector...otherwise going forward for one is going backward for another. Consider: what you think of as us getting more enlightened many people consider and descent into corruption and...
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- Neal Jansons
from IM
So, survival, even at the cost of sustainability, is the natural order, anyway, so why make any deliberate attempts to head ourselves off at the pass? (edit: And, in point of fact, the most solid metaphysical belief I hold to be my standard 'truth' is that I have no freaking idea what any of this is really about at all, and that it's insanely arrogant of me to surmise that I do. And,...
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- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Because when we began creating abstractions we became something new, with new kinds of priorities. It might be a side-effect of empathy for living in groups, which evolved, but we devised the notion of civilization and it has its own vector, and some will choose that vector over survival any day (I am one of them). There are certain lines I will not cross to survive, protect my young,...
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- Neal Jansons
from IM
So, two zero-valence vectors locking existence itself in an eternally recursive cascading parallax?
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Oooh, baby. Now you are speaking my language :) Yes, precisely. So the only interesting structure to examine is the cascade itself, the real reality we live in that is in the flux of the tensions. The tensions are unavoidable, and we are engaging in an animal avoidance of anxiety behavior as a way to avoid our collective existential angst. We must accept the tensions and recognize that...
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- Neal Jansons
from IM
Hmm, I think we are getting drive-by spammed. Hey, maybe friendfeed is going mainstream!
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Yeah, that's weird. I was just making my way back here...
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Well, Robert's always talking about how great it is that we aren't a walled garden. Here is one of the downsides. :p
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Perhaps the tensions, then, are the result of our collective, but individual, attempts to overlay, or imposition each of our perceptions into one "reality". As pervasive and compelling as this linear experience appears to be, the science is starting to reveal that the real, real reality is nothing like this at all. Even Hawking claims we might be a generation or two from even beginning to form the concepts to build the vocabulary to begin to discuss it.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Hey, this might actually be my first *block*
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
Who got blocked?
- Cristo
Yeah, some of the modern philosophy of science arguments address that issue. On one hand, we evolved the ability to perceive empirical reality and that is our baseline. However, it is not necessarily the case that perceiving truth or possessing understanding of the implications of truth are evolutionarily compelling. Proper epistemological standards say be skeptical of all claims...
more...
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Tina, i havent read all the comments, but i feel the same as you as per your post above. i am a pacifist yet i support gun rights 100%.
- Chrimmus Tad
So this perceived linearity and the tendency to built narratives is probably necessary for survival, but at the same time is completely unlike the world as we have discovered it is. Even simple colors are nothing but...the "red" ball is actually every color but red...it possesses the wavelength potential for every wavelength except red, that's why red bounces off and we see it. Our sensorium errs on the side of discretion but, through, creates optical illusions and blind spots.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
I don't even know what that is.
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Well, and I think that is likely the impact it has on the individual based on the rationale they presently need or are somehow compelled to apply in this particular linear slice. That a thing we believe we are perceiving is only brought into our awareness because of its (edit: absolute) potential for being the physical quotient of everything it isn't.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
I've got knives in the kitchen, and a slippery bathtub, as well as electricity. Yeah guns can be deadly weapons but so can baseball bats. We just need more potent child safeties. If you are ever threatened by someone with a gun you have little choice but to comply unless you have equivalent force. I think everyone or no one should have them, I am in favor of everyone having the right to defend themselves against truly threatening aggressors, but I wish we never had need of them.
- Mark Essel
I do not assume that you own a gun :o) I like the words you use "reasonable and responsible", I am all for getting the guns away from the bad guys.. Even if it makes it harder for regular people to get them.
- David Gross
from twhirl
I'm all for population control. What's wrong with guns again?
- Cristo
*high-fives Chris*
- MVB (Grinch of FF)
I'd guess because many people are morally opposed to firearms or private ownership of firearms and so they assume that others feel as strongly as they?
- Soup
I would take Soup's comment further and say that as humans, when we have a strong emotional reaction to a subject, we automatically assume that others feel the same way and have a reverse emotional reaction if we find out that they do not feel the same way as us. I have often had the same reaction to someone who has said they can't stand chocolate. I just can't believe that true!...
more...
- Rachel Lea Fox
What! You're not gay?! Serious? Colour me surprised. :o)
- sofarsoShawn
LOL! Shawn, I figure if hanging with the drama kids in college for 4 years didn't at least turn me bi, nothing will.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
این خواهرمون دوست داره از ازدواج گی ها حمایت کنه اما گی نیست! رونوشت به دیگران :)
- خیزران kheyzaran
PSaw, not just you, I hear college stories where a lot of saucy young sorority girls experiment with the same sex.
- sofarsoShawn
I'm pretty sure there's an entire video industry built upon that rumor, Shawn ;-) The drama department could put just about any sorority to shame, though. Never play drunken truth or dare with them. Trust me.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Leather Donut almost solely keeps that industry a float (he's like a personal gov't bail out package) & now he'll be on the look out for the Drama Department Girls Gone Wild videos.
- sofarsoShawn
I don't know if that would be quite up his ally. Lots of bi guys in the Drama Dept too....
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I interviewed for an IT job at a gun company and was told that while I was very qualified, I wouldn't "fit in" because I didn't own a gun and didn't desire to. I explained that I fully supported gun rights but it just wasn't my thing. The job had nothing to do with buying, selling or handling guns.
- Vaughn
Such common sense in this post.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Don't shoot me Tina!
- Richard pancakhaus Walker
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