Kelly Norton

I didn't drop out but here is part of my experience in this post from years ago. It was discouraging to hear the professors talk. Needless to say i don't code. :-) http://www.altamirano.org/mark... - antonio

Thankfully I'm in the other 50%, but I can see why many would change their major or drop out. I saw it first hand where many 1st and 2nd year Mechanical Engineering students changed their majors to something 'easier'. The most common reason was difficulty with the required advanced Math courses. Calculus being the road block for many. - Jeff P. Henderson

If I were entering college now, I would try to go to Olin. I really like their approach. - Paul Buchheit

nice post, I'm looking for the number of engineers (or per thousand capita ratio) graduating in Greece (or greeks graduating around the world) - george tziralis

Many of Computer Science professors at Stanford were luminaries in their fields, but weren't very good at engaging students in the subject matter. Brilliant researchers don't always make the best teachers. I think this contributed a lot to the dropout rate. - Jess Lee

How does this compare to drop-out rate for all US college students? And does "drop out" mean "of college entirely" or "take a break then come back" or "and choose another major"? The discussion may be lusty but I really don't like discussions that start on a figure w/ no bother to compare it to anything else, or link to info about how it's calculated. - Wade Dorrell

In CA we have two types of public universities. The UC schools require the professors to do research, where as the State University schools do not. I think the State University schools are much better for undergrad tech education as you get much more attention from your professors. - Jeff P. Henderson

The UC Berkeley College of Engineering started the Center For Entrepreneurship and Technology http://cet.berkeley.edu to address some of the issues Dodge talks about. - Ruchira S. Datta

Engineering is hard and requires above-average intelligence. Think about it this way: Statistics tells us that probably 50% of people will be below-average. Wouldn't you want those 50% of the students to drop out before actually becoming an engineer? MIT just doesn't admit that half of the population in the first place, but most schools don't have that luxury. - Gabe

People have a lot of options for (a) careers (b) money (c) power (d) image (e) attracting mates in the US, compared to China/India. Engineers are not valued very highly in the US compared to businesspeople, doctors, and lawyers. - Mitchell Tsai

boring - Gregory Lent

@Gabe: You would think that all the people that go to study Computer Sciences or seek other Engineering degrees are above the 50% average to begin with. - Amit Morson

somestimes it's a scoail or maturity thing - was for me. I get by. Wished I finished. - Alan Wilensky via Alert Thingy

It's because of the fact that people with higher standards of living pursue less demanding challenges offering similar ROI (I = investment+involvement). That's why there's so many non-US students (especially from lower income countries) in engineering and why they're much less inclined to fail. - Nenad Nikolic via twhirl

Engineering sucks. I think there's a point where any engineering student realizes that even with a degree they're looking at a pretty mediocre salary working in a really boring job. Add this to the difficult coursework and boring courses, well, engineers are good at math. It adds up to being a raw deal. That being said, if you get into engineering at Stanford or UC Berkley, your ROI would look a lot better then mine. I'm sure a large number of engineering students consider dropping out, even after Calculus. - Will Higgins

All I can do is nod. For a couple of years, not a day when by when I didn't consider jumping ship, for all the reasons commenters here have mentioned: long hours, heavy workload, fickle job market, salary barely comparable with what I could expect with a business or law degree. But here I am, a month away from (finally!) finishing my EE degree, and I couldn't be happier. - Derrick Burns

Continued from above: Basically, I think so many give up because they were looking to get something out of being an engineer: money, prestige, etc. But it's simply too great a commitment on several levels. You really have to pursue engineering because it's something you want to do, something you care about. - Derrick Burns

I dropped out because Chemical Engineering was not what I was expecting. I wanted more Chemistry, less Math. I switched to IT Management and found it much more interesting. Mind you, I'm Canadian. - Shey

I remember having a crisis in my final year of Electrical/Computer Engineering. Dropping out was a non-option, but I did consider completely abandoning 3.5 years of engineering study to switch fields and schools during my senior year. In hindsight, I didn't understand what engineers really did. My vision at the time was closer to industrial or product design than engineering. I had to take it on faith in my first two years that I was on a path to do what I was envisioning. - Kelly Norton

I suspect that more than 50% (even at good schools like GATech, I have friends who have done this) are in the wrong field. Many of my friends went into programming because they enjoyed computers and I've told them they would hate it because they don't like math. They don't listen. :) - Michael J. Cohen (mjc)

still others go into engineering due to parental expectation, which I find ridiculous, but understandable - Michael J. Cohen (mjc)

I personally think it's because a lot of them can learn on their own and get work. My friend dropped out, taught himself C++, worked at a job three years and jammed, then transitioned to a major, major company where he made serious bank - all in about four years total. It would have cost him half of what he earned at his first big job to finish school. - Patricia

Amit: one of the properties of being in the lower 50% is not knowing that you're in the lower 50%. That means many of the applicants do not know they are unqualified. - Gabe

Extensive aptitude/personality testing could fix this - Aaron Eaton

Engineering is a tough subject. how does that compare to other subjects? - John Cass via twhirl

I actually sit on an advisory board for ASU (arizona state) Poly - I can tell you that what I see is students becoming disillusioned by all the stuff they have to learn before they can go out and create something "cool". The challenge is keeping them engaged through the pre-reqs/early coursework. BTW - IMHO the problem with "drop out and learn X" is that they've intentionally skipped the fundamentals that make good engineers. Just because you can code doesn't mean you can engineer... two different things. - Brian Roy

Is Computer Science part of engineering? Because it didn't take much training in Computer Science for me to start doing cool stuff. I wrote my first game and posted it onto the internet my freshman year (Core Wars). By my Junior year, I had designed a programming language and integrated in it into a MUD. Pengtoh had contributed to Linux by his sophomore year. On the other hand, I always flunked electrical engineering classes, and couldn't stomach math past linear algebra. - Piaw Na

I switch from Engineering to a Computer Science degree. Apart from the fact that I wanted to program, there were two reasons. 1) The load was very high (it was close to 40 contact hours/week in first year). 2) The maths was hard - I'm ok at math, but combined with the high load I found I struggled when I wasn't too interested in it. - Nick Lothian

"the US should staple a Green Card to every foreign student's engineering diploma and encourage them to stay in the USA." - Clare Dibble

Same as Nick here. Dropped out due to difficulty and lack of passion for the field. Went back later to finish a BS in Computer Information Systems. - Bill Sanders

I wonder what percentage of medical school students drop out. Engineering is a hard discipline, if you want to be a web dev or a study IT or "new media" instead. Making engineering "softer" because today's students don't like to work hard and expect results instantly will just create generations of mediocre engineers and will not make the US more of an engineering power. - Kevin Goldsmith via twhirl

engineering is not hard, it is so specialized and narrow, that anybody with any sort of wide mind feels suffocated .. - Gregory Lent

The ads about the kids in school didn't make rational sense at all--suppose they did learn about it, it would be at most 5 pp. in a social studies text! But the ads played on parents' deep-seated instincts that they don't want their own children to be gay. From an evolutionary POV, the instinct is perfectly natural. Unfortunately civil rights / fairness / the golden rule didn't trump this emotionally. - Ruchira S. Datta

People need to be educated that homosexuality is not a choice--it doesn't spread through some sort of mental contagion. This becomes obvious once you learn that it occurs across diverse species in the animal kingdom. - Ruchira S. Datta

I'm confused about the lying about kids/schools. The Education Code §51890 is clear, and it seems like State Superintendent is wrong. I don't think there's any requirement that he apply the code correctly. In fact, I think he could get fired or sued for applying it incorrectly. Can you clarify? - Joel

@Joel: That section is just defining what "comprehensive health education programs" means. It doesn't say what (if any of that) should be implemented. If you look at 51913, it talks about the criteria for reviewing plans, which need to include "evaluation of the program by the governing board of the school district with the assistance of administrators, teachers, parents, pupils, and participants in the program from the community." Then 51914 reiterates explicitly "No plan shall be approved by the State Board of Education unless it determines that the plan was developed with the active cooperation of parents, community, and teachers, in all stages of planning, approval, and implementation of the plan." - Tom Stocky

FYI, for the full Education Code: http://law.justia.com/californ... - Tom Stocky

Video sent to me by an evangelical Christian I know - http://link.brightcove.com/ser... -- If you believe that being gay is a choice and a wrong choice at that, then I think you are easily scared that your children will be told by their teacher that being gay is ok. I don't agree with this and am deeply saddened by the tactics used to get Prop 8 passed. - Michael Leggett

My wife (who was reporting on the election on Tuesday) said that many of the people she interviewed were for equal rights for gay couples but didn't want their children taught about it in school. Further evidence that the lies spread succeeded in scaring people. Or maybe that was just the excuse people gave b/c they didn't want to say how they really feel. - Michael Leggett

@Ruchira I'll gladly accept that some are born homosexual, but am not sure that *every* gay or lesbian was born that way. If you are bi-x what gene did you get? both the heterosexual and homosexual genes? I do think we do a lot of things by choice and can say that I know people that lived it, but then decided it wasn't. I'll love to learn more on this subject. - Elias Torres

Remind me again why there is such a thing as a state recognized marriage. - Kelly Norton

@Kelly I agree. - Elias Torres

@Kelly: As I understand it, states are responsible for issuing the licenses, but the benefits are at the federal level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...). States can choose to recognize things like domestic partnerships as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...), but it doesn't seem like that will ever be a real solution until all marriages are domestic partnerships or vice-versa -- i.e., one legal term that covers everything. - Tom Stocky

He's avoiding saying "maverick" - anna awesomesauce

Both Nixon AND JFK arent dead? - Geoff Schultz

We still have a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich. - Jennifer Marie Sandbank

Yeah, because spending on science isn't a good place to spend money...we don't want more nerds. - Alex Scoble CISSP

That's exactly the irritating point for me. I always interpret that as a lie. McCain is intentionally trying to mislead me by giving me facts without context. - Kelly Norton

As well he friggin' should... - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

Can we get him to do that with the Wall Street guys? - Abby Martin

What's Tom got to lose. Go sit in your corners Presidential candidates! - Eric @ CS Techcast

That's his job :) - Kelly W.

Finally, a kick ass moderator. - Helen Sventitsky via fftogo

Finally a moderator who isn't afraid of being called names. - Nothing Knew

He carries a big stick, but it is apparently made of nerf foam, because they're both ignoring him. - Kelly Norton

Nice! - Rochelle

wonder if he can really do anything about these guys going over - MikeAmundsen

It helps to not be hawking a book, I think. - Cyndy

I always think of it as his way of using a pausing technique - instead of "um" he used "my friends." - Katy Southern

You're actually one of Obama's cronies. - Kelly Norton

If you are his friend, then he is talking to you. - Ari Milner

@Katy: I *really* need to work on such techniques. - Daniel J. Pritchett

Look, I'm for Obama but if I can't have confidence in him, how do the undecideds feel... :( - Mona N.

I feel like everyone likes pointing fingers. No more "cronies" and no more calling each other out. Answer the questions and let me try to decide by next month. - Jordan Hofker

he is his own gold standard. We'd have buffet bux. - Josh

I think they meant Jimmy. - Kelly Norton

Margaritas for all Kelly. - Abby Martin

+1 Kelly - Josh

"Main Street" - Kelly Norton

God, I hope so. :D - Steven Perez

"my friends" - Alex Scoble CISSP

Obama. - Nathaniel Payne

Jim Lehrer - Steve Sebestyen

America - ※Fu※

Jim did a GREAT job moderating. - Nathaniel Payne

Yeah. 1UP Lehrer. - Akiva Moskovitz

Yeah, I say Jim. - Rochelle

The vodka bottle. *hic* I mean, Obama. - Steven Perez

advertisers - Pete Delucchi

The pork barrel manufacturers. - Kelly Norton

The FF'er that participated in this room won.. - Chris W

Obama! 'You said it was going to be quick and easy, you were wrong. You said we would be viewed as liberators, you were wrong. You said we would find weapons of mass destruction, you were wrong.' Hell yes! - Aaron Krug

Obama! And if Obama wins the election, no win he wins the election then we the people will win! - Mathew Ballard

Obama. This will keep the momentum going in his favor. - Alex Scoble CISSP

If you think Obama won then go over to DrudgeReport.com and vote, because McCain is kicking a$$ there... - Jim McCusker

Obama, but thought Mccain would do worse - Gordon Swaby

Obama! - Anna Lynn M.

http://www.drudgereport.com/ vote on the drudge report they have 72% mccain - Anna Lynn M.

I definitely think Obama won, but I'm "out of touch." - Lainie

E.x.a.c.t.l.y. my thoughts. - Kamath ॐ

You aren't alone. - Nathaniel Payne

it makes him look like an asshole, but I'm obviously biased. - Victor Ganata

Obama may be a lot of things, but naive is not one of them. - steplow = Steve Lowe

looks like it's working w/ this russia stuff. Obama seems less sure of himself. - MikeAmundsen

Nothing like having a cranky old dude talking down at you. - Steven Perez

It makes him look like an elitist. Gee, thats kinda funny. - Mathew Ballard

I find it offensive because, rather than just stating facts to prove his points and try to solidify his position as some one more experienced and well versed, he is actually resorting to what amounts to name-calling. - ♫ Rahsheen™

ive noticed that - i dont like it i think its a bad move - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

I suspect Obama is a lot more ruthless than we might suspect - Sally Church

That's my take as well, but I'm also pretty biased. However, it doesn't seem like he's been able to present any more insight based on his experience. - Kelly Norton

Same as on NBC - Alex Scoble CISSP

I mean, seriously, last half hour .... - AJ Kohn

OMG, that is an audience poll, I thought it was mccain's heart monitor. - Kelly Norton

flatlined.. beeeeeeeeeeeepppp - kbourke

Haven't had that problem on PBS. - Nathaniel Payne

they're spying on Alaska right now - Pete Delucchi

With binoculars. It's THAT CLOSE! - Jordan Hofker

They got the best vodka. My in-laws brought some back from a trip. It was great. - Chris W

They're looking in Palin's window. - Abby Martin

Russians, they're drinking every time someone says "the" - Kelly Norton

It's 100% sure now that Russia will not ♥ McCain. - AJ Batac

Well, when a man and a woman lay very close to each other and love each other very much... - Rochelle

LOL! - Steven Perez

@Rochelle lol - anna awesomesauce

hehe - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

lol rochelle - jlt

birth control because we won't be able afford more kids under a mccain administration. - Kelly Norton

did he actually say IUD? - AJ Kohn

sorry if i heard it wrong.....funny Kelly! - Ruth Ferguson

Inter-Uterine-Device...type of birthcontrol - Alex Scoble CISSP

And I wear a bracelet, damn it! - Trish R

I wear a bracelet, too! Mine's more important! - Trish R

Hey guys, I have a bracelet. It doesn't have anyone's name on it but it's a bracelet!!!!!!!!! - Rochelle

Yeah, not so much on the dueling bracelets. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

Quick both of you raise your arms, are you wearing your bracelets tonight? - Kelly Norton

lol ok sorry i dont mean this jerky but couldnt resist: versus "I have no record. EVeryone loves me! I fill stadiums! Lets change stuff! You don't need to know anything else!" - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

NOT you. ;) - Nathaniel Payne

Just some? - steplow = Steve Lowe

McCain is telling bedtime stories. - Michael W. May via twhirl

"Apparently you just don't understand" - Kelly Norton

No, they aren't. McCain is pompus. - Thankful Molly

i see no black bar? - jlt

what black bar? - AJ Batac

It's like a big black box. I see no meaning behind it. It's between them on the wall. - Nathaniel Payne

Sounds like you're seeing a split screen, b/c they're standing about 10 ft. apart - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

You're on a list Nat. - AJ Kohn

No idea. I'm thinking that something is being censored. - Mathew Ballard

lol - Cee Bee

It's here: http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/m... - Nathaniel Payne

I don't know - but it seems odd. It seems added in "post" production... - Steve Isaacs

It's white on NBC...it allows you to see both of the candidates close up at the same time - Alex Scoble CISSP

Its the camera for the moderator and the audience - Chris W

It's the expanding blackhole that is our economy. - Kelly Norton

i don't see a bar. are you watching split-screen? - Anika Malone