 |
|
| FriendFeed is the easiest way to share online. Learn more » |
Rob La Gesse › Comments
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Aron Michalski, Pam Gwenzi, Francine Hardaway and 8 other people liked this
Will start in a few minutes, I'm hanging out waiting for the usual Skype call. I will have a ton of different hats on today's show.
- Robert Scoble
let the games begin
- Vezquex: God of FF
First hat will be a google one. Let's see if Gillmor can get me to put on the Silverlight one.
- Robert Scoble
dividing attention between this and health care debate. It could be an interesting exercise.
- Karoli
Karoli: cool, one conversation is important. You figure out which one. :-)
- Robert Scoble
i never did like silverlight
- Chris Jackson
You have actual hats?
- Vezquex: God of FF
Yes. Lots of hats.
- Robert Scoble
I heard you were handed your hat a few times last night ;-)
- Jerry Schuman
a few, yes
- Robert Scoble
and it begins
- michael sean wright
we are on!
- Robert Scoble
Dan Farber of CBS News.
- Robert Scoble
comcast merger, anyone?
- Karoli
Squeeee! Doc's back...been way too long.
- Karoli
I have one of those Google caps.
- Vezquex: God of FF
I'm sure that Google knowing every time anybody on the internet visits any other site has nothing to do with it, right?
- Ken Sheppardson
Great for Analytics.
- Vezquex: God of FF
i.e. inserting themselves (potentially) into every client->server connection process
- Ken Sheppardson
it's not just delivery, it's content control.
- Karoli
Adds a new spin to the net neutrality argument
- Ken Sheppardson
robert, comcast might not want you to use bing. they might want you to only use yahoo.
- Karoli
More media consolidation in the hands of fewer and fewer corporations is always a good thing
- Gregg H.
Dan Farber, Doc Searls, Scoble and Marks on today's Gillmor Gang: Live Now - http://building43.com/realtime
- Cliff Gerrish
It's also interesting in the context of the fact DirecTV viewers no longer get the Versus sports network, as they couldn't negoiate a deal with Comcast
- Ken Sheppardson
ask Al Gore how he feels about their negotiations re: Current TV
- Karoli
and Versus carries a lot of the niche or edge sporting events
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
great point, Doc.
- Karoli
Comcast is very aggressive in keeping out local competitors - they have bought every local cable company or forced them out. They have locked out all local sporting events
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Yeah, here in San Francisco we couldn't get the Stanford/Cal game this fall... it was on Versus. And it means no daily, live Tour de France coverage next July :-(
- Ken Sheppardson
It was "rooter" before people started to mispronounce it.
- Gregg H.
I wonder what this means for their TV On Demand section - currently NBC is not listed for any shows and CBS is very big in that list. Will this change and now NBC will only be On Demand? Will Hulu now be a Comcast Cable only site?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
The Network has changed to the point that combining cable + tv production can't corner the market in anything.
- Cliff Gerrish
consolidation of power and message control
- Karoli
cliff, they own the network.
- Karoli
Messages can be sent from any node.
- Cliff Gerrish
cliff, if i have no access to nbc news because i'm not a comcast subscriber, the messages aren't especially helpful.
- Karoli
Don't you have access to NBC news via the network?
- Cliff Gerrish
cliff - they already "load balance" based on where/when you are streaming from/to - so now what's to prevent them from load balancing all ABC/CBS sites in favour of NBC?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Cliff, will I continue to?
- Karoli
@Karoli - Comcast/NBC will become an out of network network :)
- Rob La Gesse
I am sitting at lunch with a Silverlight guy:-)
- Francine Hardaway
from BuddyFeed
Video feed is fine.
- Rob La Gesse
video is fine here
- Chris Jackson
Comcast is on to yous guys
- Vezquex: God of FF
There's no need to fear silverlight. It will die quickly. HTML 5 will make sure of that.
- Gregg H.
Mixing Content and Conduit is always a bad business idea
- Stephen Pickering
Michael Arrington just joined the Gillmor Gang: Live now at http://building43.com/realtime
- Cliff Gerrish
Tradeoff? Silverlight is a 15 second install...
- Rob La Gesse
silverlight will go the way of google gears
- Chris Jackson
Gregg, I'll only believe that when we have the Olympics streamed live in HTML5.
- Vezquex: God of FF
NetFlix watch instantly is a nice example of Silverlight -- this relates to the Comcast deal.
- Cliff Gerrish
Google Gears didn't DO anything - Silverlight does.
- Rob La Gesse
I think all this stuff is inevitable. do we still need cable? or broadcast? for how long?
- Francine Hardaway
from BuddyFeed
Vezquex, you'll see it
- Gregg H.
Francine, the argument against the acquistion is that they'll control the Network. They won't.
- Cliff Gerrish
That's a good question - will Comcast/NBC still allow Netflix/Mediafly content to be streamed at full speed or will it become traffic shaped
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
you mean will the net be.. you know... neutral?
- Ken Sheppardson
Google will spank properties that throttle - that alone will keep them playing fair.
- Rob La Gesse
All proprietary un-free software and platforms will lose in the long run.
- Gregg H.
Cliff, they already do. If I am watching a streaming video for more than 5 minutes I get traffic shaped. If i'm watching Comcast On Demand I do not. Will Hulu now be traffic shaped or will it get a pass? That what will be the clue if they are acting in a network neutral manner
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Windows is dog slow on good rigs, whereas Chrome OS is fast even on weak hardware.
- Vezquex: God of FF
CrunchPad update?
- Ken Sheppardson
that's what i'm waiting for - CrunchPad questions
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
what's traffic shaped
- Francine Hardaway
from BuddyFeed
Silverlight adjusts to the speed of the bandwidth...
- Cliff Gerrish
scoble - diet coke is bad.....
- Chris Jackson
Francine - it is basically throttling of your bandwidth based on content and/or destination
- Rob La Gesse
Francine - if i'm streaming a video on Comcast the first 5 or so minutes are at my full bandwidth capability (15mbs) but if I continue past that point the speed of the video drops to less than 1mbs
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
But Silverlight is from Microsoft. How can it be good?
- Vezquex: God of FF
See Moonlight + Mono....
- Cliff Gerrish
Amazing Silverlight is actually seeing some traction. Developer Cuz predicted it would 2 years ago.
- JimmyJet
When Google switches Youtube videos to Ogg Theora natively palyabe in HTML 5 Browsers I think Gillmor and others that deride the importance of free software codecs and platforms will have a revelation
- Gregg H.
bah - I have to run an errand - I wish the video show could be viewed later
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
wish those questions had been asked in 2001
- Karoli
Bear - it can - they are always posted on building43.com a few days later.
- Rob La Gesse
Gillmor Gang is available on YouTube - your DVR of choice...
- Cliff Gerrish
google'll be using h264 and html5 video before any os codec
- Kevin Marks
Silverlight is as un-free as you can get.
- Gregg H.
oh snap! I had no clue - thanks rob and cliff
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Silverlight is every bit as free as Google Search
- Rob La Gesse
Silverlight is free (as in beer).
- Vezquex: God of FF
Mike is trying to open one of those un-openable plastic wrapped packages - I feel for you, Mike!
- Rob La Gesse
be careful Mike, sharp edges on that package.
- michael sean wright
scissors help, Mike.
- Karoli
lol, karoli.
- Hilary Talbot
Ubuntu netbook remix
- Vezquex: God of FF
Mike - use a hand grenade, Those suckers are tough!
- Rob La Gesse
seriously, take a pair of scissors and cut it. It works. surgically, even.
- Karoli
Is locked down linux an open system?
- Cliff Gerrish
The importance of the use of our computer devices in our lives are fundamental. That's why the software and hardware has to be free. Otherwise we don't control our lives. The software and hardware providers control our lives. That's the problem Steve.
- Gregg H.
But you need a real computer to debug anything. You couldn't actually debug from within Chrome OS.
- Vezquex: God of FF
Is ChromeOS going to give you access to the command line?
- Cliff Gerrish
Gregg - that's crazy. As crazy as "free" healthcare.
- Rob La Gesse
strange disconnect between these guys talking about high tech and Mike opening a plastic insane package with his teeth.
- Karoli
"free" as in freedom
- Gregg H.
CromiumOS is free
- Gregg H.
Rob, "free" as in accessible to all but a few elite.
- Karoli
Freedom isn't free - far from it.
- Rob La Gesse
free as in kittens
- Kevin Marks
The importance of the use of cars, homes, electricity and food in our lives are fundamental. That's why cars, homes, electricity and food has to be free. Otherwise we don't control our lives. [oh, "free" free]
- Ken Sheppardson
Chromium is NOT free. I pay for it with my attention and my gestures - and Google profits off both.
- Rob La Gesse
free as in radical
- Ken Sheppardson
"opening a plastic insane package with his teeth" Either a good way to take out aggression or raise blood pressure, take your choice.
- JimmyJet
the livestream from SuperNova has been great. Good panels and very good discussions.
- Jerry Schuman
If we understand that phones are going to the Network -- why don't we see that television is going there as well.
- Cliff Gerrish
Aside from a philosophical view. After being Windows free for 2 years and being free of malware, spyware, adware, and not having to run virus scan software and all that crap, I really don't understand why people like Gillmor think Linux is second class to Windows. I would never want the pain and horrible experience of using Windows again purely for practical reasons.
- Gregg H.
Gregg, I understand Windows 7 is quite nice. I'm planning to buy a cheap Windows 7 notebook as a backup machine.
- Karoli
Right CLiff.
- Francine Hardaway
Right. I have both GV, Vonage and Ribbit, and I have one phone number. It's my cell phone
- Francine Hardaway
we just went off air
- Jerry Schuman
off air?
- Vezquex: God of FF
oops, looks like we lost the feed.
- Karoli
lost it....
- Chris Jackson
Back shortly
- Cliff Gerrish
it's back
- Ken Sheppardson
Windows 7 rocks.
- Robert Scoble
oops - who tripped over the cord?
- Rob La Gesse
hit refresh
- Jerry Schuman
We know we're off the air. Sorry.
- Robert Scoble
You're not :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
o - is steve G. running this on a win 7 box??
- Chris Jackson
We should be back now.
- Robert Scoble
get the tricaster a cooling fan stat
- Brian Hendrickson
off again
- Jerry Schuman
the conversation never stopped on our side, though.
- Robert Scoble
sad
- Vezquex: God of FF
Something is wacky. My video has sucked the whole time.
- Robert Scoble
We are recording this, though, and will have the whole thing up.
- Robert Scoble
I'm not getting a feed.
- Francine Hardaway
Please don't make me watch the Hummingbird Nest Cam.
- michael sean wright
Want to know if Michael gets that Magic Jack package open.
- JimmyJet
Shouldve used Justin.tv & Google Video Chat ahead of FF
- A.Karriem A. Khan
it's back
- Vezquex: God of FF
You guys should talk a bit about Status.net, formerly Laconi.ca. Evan Proudomu just got over $1 Mil in VC. It could wind up being a very viable free federated decentralized competitor to Twitter.
- Gregg H.
FF is good for importing to gmail & DataMining yourself AUTOMAGICALLY , Like TwitCloud http://www.building43.com/realtim...
- A.Karriem A. Khan
Gregg: yeah, that will come up soon. Evan blocked me though. Heheh.
- Robert Scoble
Tell Doc I said hi
- Jesse Stay
Robert. I would love to see an interview with Status.net guys on Building43
- Gregg H.
Hi Doc and Dan and Robert...travel safely, all! thanks for the show. :)
- Karoli
Thanks, we'll see what we can do regarding status.net.
- Robert Scoble
Cool
- Gregg H.
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Kathleen Hassinger, Jim Connolly, Rob Cairns and 8 other people liked this
So, what are we talking about on the Gang today?
- Kevin Marks
@KevinMarks, I have something AS related that I'd like to show you next week. I think you'll appreciate it. Cliqset-related.
- Darren
would definitely like to see AS/Webfinger/GProfiles/OpenID being discussed.
- Jamie
I'm available for the Skype call.
- Robert Scoble
Be sure to discuss Information cards if you discuss OpenID
- Jesse Stay
What time is it? :)
- Rob La Gesse
Rob: sorry for running a little late. We'll be starting shortly. Steve, I'm on Skype now.
- Robert Scoble
4:30
- Jesse Stay
1 more minute...
- Robert Scoble
Too late? Nah, nah - it's just earlay, earlay...
- Jesse Stay
glad to see i'm not late. :)
- Karoli
love that 27 in imac Robert
- courtney benson
Mike Arrington is a state now?
- Jesse Stay
the 51st state, Jesse :)
- Roberto Bonini
My quad-core 27" iMac left China today! Can't wait - it arrives before Jason's baby ;)
- Rob La Gesse
If ChromeOS was out today, I would have bought a machine with it, rather than a MacBook for my family.
- Matt Mastracci
Ha.
- Darren
google knoll is now a big part of profiles and now with openid/webfinger google profile is a big item
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Vizard, Scoble, Marks & Calacanis on the Gillmor Gang: Live Now at http://building43.com/realtime
- Cliff Gerrish
Looking forward to buying the Droid this weekend
- courtney benson
It won't hit it for everyone until they have a decent online graphics and financial solution
- Jesse Stay
knol uses google profiles, just as other google apps do - profiles are a service for google apps
- Kevin Marks
They also need to come up with a way to integrate with client-side ID (information cards, selectors, etc)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: I see you saw the light at the Kynetx conf... (from cookies to selectors)
- Cliff Gerrish
I think the launch Chrome netbooks will be free
- Jamie
Cliff, my eyes have seriously been opened - I am a new man now. I see a whole new future from that conference
- Jesse Stay
Although I'm still trying to understand it all. It's all still in progress as we speak.
- Jesse Stay
What I think we need is <input type="openid"> for HTML5 so browsers can do clientside ID
- Kevin Marks
Kevin, that would be awesome
- Jesse Stay
how long ago did it start?
- Christopher Harris
<input type="openid"> is the only way OpenID will succeed. It's not usable in its current state right now.
- Matt Mastracci
I don't want clientside, I want personal-cloud-side
- Kurtiss Hare
Matt, agreed
- Jesse Stay
Kurtiss, you need a combination of both - see http://staynalive.com/article...
- Jesse Stay
What people are wedded to is the development IDE - Nobody else has built anything near as compelling as Microsoft's IDE
- Rob La Gesse
html5 on the iphone is because of webkit
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse: that's not "personal" cloud, at least the way I think about it.
- Kurtiss Hare
that was WPF
- Jamie
the seesmic for windows uses WPF
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Kurtiss what is "personal" cloud?
- Jesse Stay
I still haven't installed Silverlight/WPF on any of my machines and I haven't missed any content on the web.
- Matt Mastracci
WPF and Silverlight are converging as front-ends...
- Cliff Gerrish
I love the Netflix watch instantly -- it's silverlight...
- Cliff Gerrish
silverlight is still a subset of wpf
- Jamie
though the lines are blurring
- Jamie
It's a cloud that you own, that exposes "local services" like storage, identity selector config, computation, etc. to services you don't own
- Kurtiss Hare
Does this silverlight porting path just translate video, or the whole framework? If it's just video, it sounds like a WMV->MP4 codec.
- Matt Mastracci
I don't think stream of audio or video via silverlight to a webkit browser counts as a dev platform for iphone
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
has anyone got documentation on sliverlight video playback on iPhone? I didn't see that demo
- Kevin Marks
Sharepoint 2010 supports silverlight
- Jamie
+1 bear.
- Matt Mastracci
Kurtiss - where do you own it? On Amazon? Who hosts that data? If someone else is hosting it do you really own it? The client is the best place for the user to own their data. That can be supported by a cloud service, but your client needs to control it.
- Jesse Stay
Kevin http://www.iis.net/iphone
- Jamie
Jesse: that part's up to you, it can run from your house if you're into that. otherwise it can run from your amazon or rackspace account, whatever.
- Kurtiss Hare
Kurtiss, the average user is never going to be able to do that. It has to be something native in the browser or the operating system for the user to get it.
- Jesse Stay
@Kurtiss - your Rackspace account :) Please me more ;)
- Rob La Gesse
lol
- Kurtiss Hare
Also, a cloud-based service can't provide near the context a desktop client can
- Jesse Stay
Internal enterprise apps are never a predictor of platforms that'll survive. I could list dozens of dead Microsoft products that were "hot" for a while until they were abandoned.
- Matt Mastracci
Jesse, for now, but when the broadband explosion comes....
- Stephen Pickering
Office for Web is .Net right?
- Paul Shadwell
Stephen, even then you're never going to have full control so long as you rely on the cloud for full context. See my article above.
- Jesse Stay
"turns out, microsoft developed the killer app for chrome os" - office web apps
- Jamie
enterprise == large user count behind a firewall with a private network
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse: What's the difference between the way that Windows/Mac OS X exposes my local services and the way a "personal cloud"-based OS could? It's Chrome OS' destiny ;)
- Kurtiss Hare
I've just finished installing SharePoint 2010 and now installing the Office Web Apps so I'll let you know shortly.
- Paul Shadwell
Robert, make sure you get that enterprise lecture from Steve before going on about Chatter
- Ross Mayfield
if chrome os enables a personal VPN experience that I can then allow individuals to "peek into" that would be a huge win
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Kurtiss, a personal cloud is never going to know what you're doing on Barnes and Noble vs. Borders.com at the same time. Please read my article above.
- Jesse Stay
Paul: NO. Office for Web is ALL JavaScript.
- Robert Scoble
"very loyal to office" == it's a huge pain and cost to translate all those proprietary docs to something else
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse, cloud based services can bring context using social web - bring context in form you contacts and activities
- Kevin Marks
Kevin, only to an extent. You still need the client to control that process.
- Jesse Stay
Kevin, Jesse's talking Action Cards.
- Cliff Gerrish
Robert Office Web has Silverlight "extras"
- Jamie
better fidelity, smoother zooming etc
- Jamie
Kevin, I saw the demo but haven't the docs for it. Just passes the video off directly to the vid player on iPhone. Here is the demo URL http://www.iis.net/iphone
- Jerry Schuman
Robert: Do you think they did that for increased cross browser support?
- Paul Shadwell
many companies are just scared to move to the web It seems an insecure place to them and they take the IT guys (who get paid to manage Exchange) word for it. "You don't want to do that. It's insecure." Few CEOs outside our business will challenge talk like that.
- Matt Terenzio
I truly love that indictment. LOL...it's only Obama, Congress has not a damn thing to do with it.
- Karoli
I have multiple clients that draw on my twitter, Poco and other cloud contexts. phones, laptops desktops use them
- Kevin Marks
yea, like obama has control over the senate and house or the huge military infrastructure that bush had 8 years to setup
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
BULLSHIT, Jason.
- Karoli
Jason, agreed. Not that it's a viable sol'n.
- Kurtiss Hare
Jasos is a die-hard libertarian. Love it.
- Jerry Schuman
Karoli +1
- Ross Mayfield
obama set stem cell research free, that's crucial
- Christopher Harris
My 20-year old innovating son thinks you're full of shit. His diabetes doesn't kill him.
- Karoli
ok, adding politics to this discussion just ruined it and reminds me of the bad version of gilmor gang
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Standard of living has increased with population. Not saying there aren't challenges.
- Matt Terenzio
Some companies can't innovate because they pay too much for health care
- Ross Mayfield
Let's get back to tech please!!!!!!!
- Peter Mullen
Ross +1 back to you.
- Karoli
Microsoft won't stop innovating, but they'll be innovating in the wrong direction (closed platforms, etc.)
- Matt Mastracci
Jason sounds like Ehrlich's genocidal nonsense, not any Libertarians I know
- Kevin Marks
when all the normal workers - not those that are like most silicon valley startup wonks - can stop worrying about where the money for the next health bill comes from, then they will be able to spend time making work more productive
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Tim O'Reilly talks about Microsoft being a major player in the open web...
- Cliff Gerrish
Kevin, did you get the URL for the IIS demo?
- Jerry Schuman
Microsoft innovates but it's not accessible to the murmuring rabble. Like me. at least, not yet (other than Silverlight)
- Karoli
Microsoft is the greatest squandering of wealth in the History of business
- Stephen Pickering
Microsoft is a leader in the Information card space, and they're doing some amazing stuff with .Net, etc
- Jesse Stay
(note that I write this from a *nix-based MacBook Pro)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: see Craig Burton's rant on MSFT's implementation of cardspace.
- Cliff Gerrish
Microsoft is the new Newspaper business
- Matt Terenzio
Cliff, I'll look at that
- Jesse Stay
There's not a company that Balmer wouldn't buy. Gates had to come in and not allow him to bid more than 42 billion for Yahoo
- Stephen Pickering
How about Silverlight/Gestalt - running Ruby/Python in the browser.
- Cliff Gerrish
ahem
- Ross Mayfield
Gestalt is a dead end (I blogged here a while ago: http://grack.com/blog...)
- Matt Mastracci
and how is Salesforce managing this change in direction and focus... open source and open protocols I suspect
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Client wars have been going on for 2 decades.. it doesn't matter. You will have multiple native and web based clients from now until the cows come home.
- Jerry Schuman
warlords of tech, each guarding their own fiefdom.
- Karoli
The apathy of the user community regarding clients was evidenced by the failure of "Write Once, Run Everywhere"
- Jerry Schuman
it all boils down to Tower Defense!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
I think you just hit the nail on the head bear :-)
- Paul Shadwell
Robert it already exists.. DOM manipulations
- Jerry Schuman
Jerry: DOM Manipulations + Action Cards gets you there.
- Cliff Gerrish
the major change comes with context awareness. We're almost there.. very close in my estimation.
- Jerry Schuman
Jerry: Action Cards are all about contextual browsing.
- Cliff Gerrish
There are no generic enclosures is what I think Dave meant
- Matt Terenzio
meta data is data - it can be included with other meta data or consumed as is. what is key is removing the silo mentality -- open data api's to allow neutral use cases
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
twitter has always been a feature to be included in other apps -- they *are* a pipe
- Karoli
yes, they have rolled out a number of new features but they still have fundamental stability issues when followers drop off your account, when api calls still return random errors and other quality of life issues
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
btw: all those things you just mentioned extended Twitters discrete extensions of the backend. You're seeing twitter manipulate and compartmentalize their schema
- Jerry Schuman
bear, not only that, but they're anti-community. by sending that message, they tell me they intend to be a pipe for my data, not a host.
- Karoli
i've become so accustomed to their slowness of innovation, i certainly don't take the recently developed features for granted like I did when G or FF innovates...sad, really.
- Kurtiss Hare
still looking for those 'features'. closing conversations, making retweets a metric, and adding lists...?
- Karoli
While I might agree with ppl discounted MS I think discounting Ray Ozzie is a HUGE mistake. Especially if Ballmer gets forced out of MS.
- Rob La Gesse
it's all DATA SOUP. Apple had it right with the Newton ;-)
- Jerry Schuman
Authoritative ecosystems of record will still rule the day.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff +1
- Karoli
tweetie iphone is stil the best way to access
- Jamie
:) The Newton rocks! (still)
- Rob La Gesse
Gah Jerry - Newton Soup was the worlds slowest data model. Nice idea, lousy implementation.
- Kevin Marks
my commodore 64 is still in the garage...
- Karoli
Kevin, blame the processor ;-)
- Jerry Schuman
my C64 is right next to my pc and the mac :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Great show guys! Like Mike, I like the Pre
- Peter Mullen
bye...good show even with the politics. :)
- Karoli
Thanks, sorry @Ross for not mentioning SocialText.
- Robert Scoble
short show :-(
- Jamie
We should do an enterprise shootout between all these new social enterprise systems
- Robert Scoble
Jamie: gotta make Turkey! :-)
- Robert Scoble
ah we dont have thanksgiving here
- Jamie
don't mind shorter shows if they are focused. except for the "into the ditch" diversion of the political discussion this was a nice tightly focused show
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
SocialText...unfortunate name. Brings to mind the "journal" that was punked by Alan Sokal.
- Christopher A Carr
I love SocialText, when I use it :-)
- Jesse Stay
I do.
- Aron Michalski
I do.
- Aron Michalski
Feel free to discuss the Real Time CrunchUp here.
Charlie Anzman, barbarars, Marco(aureliusmaximus) and 5 other people liked this
Real Time is real time :) Very cool for TC to allow the live stream. (Done with a @NewTekInc Tricaster I believe).
- Robert J Taylor
Who has questions for Twitter COO, Dick Costolo?
- Robert J Taylor
Wow - Twitter is going to put CoTweet and others out of business. And I can't wait for their business version - will pay today!
- Rob La Gesse
Huge 90 min panel about to start - quite impressive list of participants!
- Robert J Taylor
That's the typical-sized Techcrunch Monster Sized Panel.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Smells like teen spirit
- Rocky Barbanica
I can hear Scobler laughing from here in Pacifica
- Rocky Barbanica
Hows my Tricaster working?
- Rocky Barbanica
Rocky - it appears to be working great :)
- Rob La Gesse
quality of the real time stream is really amazing. well done.
- Karoli
I want a link too...
- Karoli
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Susan Beebe, ffcode, Laura Norvig and 16 other people liked this
curious what people make of the new RT on twitter
- Christopher Harris
and Google's acquisitions of Admob and Gizmo5
- Vezquex: God of FF
We should start shortly, I'm still waiting for Steve Gillmor to call me up.
- Robert Scoble
ready for Gillmor Gang with @jobsworth
- Kevin Marks
Livestream launches free live streaming to iPhone and iPod Touch Safari. http://iphone.livestream.com/
- Vezquex: God of FF
On the call, should start shortly.
- Robert Scoble
New New York Times sounds like something from Futurama.
- Vezquex: God of FF
snap, iPhone
- Vezquex: God of FF
So... is Palm dead?
- Ken Sheppardson
What's palm?
- Cliff Gerrish
You remember, Cliff... the last company to release a phone the Robert said was better than the iphone.
- Ken Sheppardson
whining about a default setting?
- Vezquex: God of FF
Didn't 3com used to own them...
- Cliff Gerrish
Before the Apple people took over...
- Ken Sheppardson
I like that slogan: "It's geekier"
- Cliff Gerrish
No, Android is Linux to Apple's Apple.
- Ken Sheppardson
iPhone = Windows, Palm = Apple, Android = Linux ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Scoble needs something to argue about to feel relevant
- scott anderson
Maybe Microsoft should release a phone operating system...
- Ken Sheppardson
Here we go...
- Mike Doeff
Hold on, hold on... Michael... did you *pay* for that Droid?
- Ken Sheppardson
that was bizarre. i was getting overlapping audio. And Ken, you are a naughty, naughty boy. :)
- Karoli
Ken - you trouble maker you!
- Rob La Gesse
scott: give me a break.
- Robert Scoble
I bought my own Droid.
- Robert Scoble
I'm buying a Droid tomorrow - on a G1 now
- Kevin Marks
I'm afraid to try the Droid as I'm pretty heavily emotionally invested in the Pre :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
dang, you guys are really making me want a Droid. And Scoble hating is a great bonus.
- Vezquex: God of FF
geeks make me laugh...the latest and greatest rivalries of geek toys. too bad Aron's not here to be one of the cool kids.
- Karoli
As we saw with the Pre, you can say some device "single handedly restored" whatever, but just wait six months...
- Ken Sheppardson
Is the web the platform, or are we seeing 2 or 3 new platforms in this space?
- Cliff Gerrish
The web is the one true platform.
- Vezquex: God of FF
one platform to rule them all?
- Karoli
These guys are pissing me off..give me a break talking about how much better the apps are - Android just needs a little more time until the apps are mature - iPhone didn't have apps at first. The 1st version of the Facebook app wasn't perfect, there have been enhancements, upgrades etc
- Kenny
what nokia is dead?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
What market doesn't have one big 50% market share leader and 2-3 alternative smaller players?
- Ken Sheppardson
the Android OS is an integrated component model where iPhone is a monolithic app model
- scott anderson
The fact that Android is now getting momentum means, more, and better apps are coming very soon. Loving my HTC Hero !!!
- Jim @TechFrog Alden
Who's the really old guy leading this whole thing?
- Kenny
It is too soon to draw conclusions, folks.
- Mona Nomura
Kenny: Steve Gillmor.
- Robert Scoble
Kenny: I can't compare products based on what might be. I have to look at WHAT IS!!!!
- Robert Scoble
Mona: Is it too early to draw the conclusion that more than one option can survive? ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Thanks Robert
- Kenny
Android is where the market is heading, more so outside the US, where iphone is a bit player.
- mark w webster
mark: when I travel overseas I see iPhone usage very heavy.
- Robert Scoble
I am very happy with my Droid. The apps are updating for the new Android 2.0. A new update to Twidroid will be out next week according to a tweet from the developer today.
- Mike Shulman
mono is being ported to Android
- scott anderson
you mix with geeks Robert :)
- mark w webster
True Robert, but I think Android will only improve as time goes on, just like Apple and the iPhone did.
- Kenny
I can see the back of Robert Scoble's head right now. This is too much real time web. ;)
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
The bar should not be set solely on platform and hardware -- the devs are a huge part of a phone's success. If Android developers step up, and the iPhone stays proprietary to AT&T, that opens up a whole new ball game.
- Mona Nomura
HTML5 may make the apps more irrelevant.
- Rob La Gesse
How is it that guys like this who love Tech, are considered the Top of Social Media all have the worst Web Cams, Audio Levels at all ranges and are crying about cutting each off like they are in some Playground, this is why nobody pays attention to them, blah!
- Lorenzo
the Droid is just one phone. think about the difference between G1 and Droid. the next leap will be just as significant.
- scott anderson
Not if your data plan cannot support it. AT&T's 3G is garbage and I don't have the patience to wait for sites to load. Hence, apps FTW.
- Mona Nomura
HTML5 is key - the new platform for mobile web on all phones
- Kevin Marks
I love all the commentary regarding Apple control of the app store. You should have tried building apps for Verizon. I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars just to get an application cleared to be put into their deck. You couldn't even write apps for Verizon if you didn't have a small war chest.
- Jerry Schuman
Mona, agree 100%
- Karoli
Even RIM hardcore fans are ready to jump to Android.
- Karoli
I suspect the most disruptive thing to happen to the handset industry will be a regulatory end to carrier lock in in the next 3-5 years.
- Ken Sheppardson
@Lorenzo I am a big fan of these guys. By the way, who was that guy in the East Coast Vegas video?
- PC Easy
Am I really listening to grown men talk about Cell Phones? This country is doomed
- Lorenzo
iphone market share over here tops less than 5%, though app availability is high on buyers minds, Android is making good strides in that area, it's a two horse race IMO.
- mark w webster
RIM will be implementing WebKit browser in 2010
- Marc Delurgio
RIM hasn't progressed - at all, and their attempts have been nothing but FAIL. BB Storm? Really??
- Mona Nomura
ending carrier lock would be awesome!
- Vezquex: God of FF
Lorenzo - you don;t have to watch/listen...
- Kenny
I know kenny, however i think im permitted to give my opinion as long as I dont use vulgarity
- Lorenzo
Changing the balance of power for phone development is key. The platform has been taken away from the telecoms.
- Cliff Gerrish
I call bullshit on that fact. Get ready when each different handset starts having different requirements.
- Jerry Schuman
True
- Kenny
And those who keep bringing up HTML5, perhaps on Verizon's data it may run fine but on AT&T's unreliable 3G? NO. CDMA ftw.
- Mona Nomura
I still think for a polished product that is easy to pick up and use, the Palm Pre is still my Favorite.
- Luke Kilpatrick
100k iPhone apps doesn't matter - make 50 essential apps are avail for top 4 platforms, then the playing field is leveled
- Marc Delurgio
I'm a big fan of Google Voice, except for the translations - they're pretty bad
- Kenny
I'm sure I'm wrong, but I expect Android to take over handsets the same way Linux has taken over the desktop :-/
- Ken Sheppardson
lol
- Kenny
Scoble - I have ridden with you while you use a cell phone for navigation - it is VERY scary!
- Rob La Gesse
Palm Pre was introduced only recently here, a real Turkey, just in time for Xmas.
- mark w webster
Lorenzo - I've seen you on Twitter and I know you use vulgarity.
- PC Easy
Apple doesn't do cloud services. A single iPhone app developer will have a hard time competing with Google on that front.
- scott anderson
PCEasy, are you not the person on twitter that continues to make horrible comments about Leo's face?
- Lorenzo
Android will take over handsets because Windows Mobile is pitiful and iPhone OS is not available to 3rd-party devices.
- Vezquex: God of FF
Rob: that's because iPhone doesn't do turn-by-turn so you have to look at the screen.
- Robert Scoble
WM is dead, or at least, its in dire need of defibrilation
- mark w webster
I still think the Droid reminds me of the feel of a 80's Transformer. I think the HTC Hero is a much more polished phone and will get better with Android 2.0.
- Luke Kilpatrick
Google Nav does work pretty well, especially since its free, but it does need some improvements - but it's good enough that I canceled my Verizon Navigator
- Kenny
apps will die - web apps will prevail
- Marc Delurgio
IT's on all these devices, Steve
- Ken Sheppardson
The Pre does turn by turn, for free and it works great. I still think the Google map app is pretty good.
- Luke Kilpatrick
Robert Scoble, why is it you top tech geeks cant get your audibles to the same level, let alone have a decent webcam? Also, do you feel that 1938Media is slightly over-rated? Thank you
- Lorenzo
HTML5 is not Reality. Not until we get rid of IE6
- Luke Kilpatrick
Lorenzo: that's Steve Gillmor who has control of audio levels.
- Robert Scoble
Luke: IE6 isn't a problem on smartphones :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
IE6 is dead. anyone who develops for it is a fool.
- Karoli
Who is 1938media? I heard he's telling lies but I blocked him so I don't know what he's up to.
- Robert Scoble
Robbie Scobbie, I thank you.
- Lorenzo
The levels aren't perfect but still pretty good considering that you have 5 different people in 5 different locations on laptops
- Kenny
He always talks crap about you on twitter to pceasy
- Lorenzo
Chrome and Safari
- Jerry Schuman
firefox for when I need firebug
- Jerry Schuman
Lorenzo: I don't care. He lies. That's all I need to know.
- Robert Scoble
IE only when my machine needs to dial home to Microsoft for something
- Ken Sheppardson
I tried Chrome in Ubuntu and couldn't access any https:// pages.
- Vezquex: God of FF
Yes but as a developer that builds web apps I still have to target IE6 which sucks majorly but its still the standard at enterprise.
- Luke Kilpatrick
Android is licensed with Apache 2.0, a very business-friendly open source license
- scott anderson
Every iPhone developer enters a royalty agreement with Apple.
- Rob La Gesse
"Large market share" isn't the same thing as "network effect"
- Ken Sheppardson
IE6 is the main reason I like doing Mobile dev better than just core web dev as you only need to target 1 main rendering engine - Webkit. Although there are some differences between iPhone, Andriod and Palm Pre. iPhone has the best implementation.
- Luke Kilpatrick
Still waiting on my Ribbit Voice invite code.
- Jerry Schuman
Whos the heavy breather? :)
- Kenny
Jerry, use gang09
- Cliff Gerrish
thanks cliff
- Jerry Schuman
Neat. Will Ribbit have VOIP? Is it free?
- Vezquex: God of FF
Holy Macro, what a time I had getting here.
- Matt Terenzio
So, can we use Ribbit + iPhone to equal GoogleVoice + Droid?
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff Basically.
- Robert Scoble
Although I will compare those this weekend.
- Robert Scoble
Ok, that breathing is creepy
- Jim @TechFrog Alden
What happened, Matt? Your FF browser crash? :)
- Rob La Gesse
Hm... that code just gets me an "account reserved"....
- Ken Sheppardson
Hey Kevin, give the live web audience a ribbit code...
- Cliff Gerrish
ribbit code for gillmor gang listeners is "gang09" sign up at ribbit.com
- Kevin Marks
Had to reboot everything was moving slowwww
- Matt Terenzio
Kevin: But that just gets you a "Ribbit Account Reserved" email?
- Ken Sheppardson
sweet, thanks Kevin Marks.
- Vezquex: God of FF
Should kids have a google voice number? With parents controlling the switchboard?
- Cliff Gerrish
the accounts will go out over the next few days Ken
- Kevin Marks
Cool. Thanks, Kevin.
- Ken Sheppardson
LOL
- Kenny
looking forward to trying ribbit....
- Karoli
On the net - Apple could fade like AOL, The Apple Tablet will make Iphone, android Apps quite secondary. Phone will have a much smaller earprint.
- Arnie Klaus
double dare someone to call Scoble.
- Vezquex: God of FF
OK, everyone -- call Robert!
- Cliff Gerrish
what was that numnber??
- Kenny
I will admit - I called Robert once, trying to find him at a meet-up in Half Moon Bay. It came in handy.
- Mike Doeff
Doh, crunchpad!?!?
- Kenny
i want a crunchpad, she whined.
- Karoli
So it should be out soon??
- Kenny
will the crunchpad run Android?
- scott anderson
...or Chrome OS
- Ken Sheppardson
no contact points, composite enclosed, for kids and up
- Arnie Klaus
Chrome w/ Android plug-ins
- scott anderson
+1-425-205-1921
- Robert Scoble
Get it out before Christmas Mike.
- Mike Doeff
I'm amazed you don't get a ton of prank calls
- Kenny
+1-707-WEB-LIVE
- Matt Terenzio
Kenny: I have your phone number if you call me.
- Robert Scoble
More QVC... :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
I've never called but if I need a tech opinion I might hit you up
- Kenny
tablets will replace kiosks not personal devices
- scott anderson
haha, one-handed computing.
- Vezquex: God of FF
One handed computing - easy to misinterpret that one
- Mike Doeff
books, text books, movies, homework...
- Arnie Klaus
solar
- Arnie Klaus
maps, cookbooks, phonebooks...
- Ken Sheppardson
I think Apple bought major textbook rights.
- Arnie Klaus
On train to NYC yesterday NewBiz News conference there were 8 newspapers 1 kindle and two iphones in my car. I was using iphone
- Matt Terenzio
doorbell on TV! I like this guy.
- Vezquex: God of FF
Mostly Wall Street Journals
- Matt Terenzio
Tuck that phone into my ear, on with the tablet
- Arnie Klaus
My comcast phone shows up on my tv. Really like it.
- Cliff Gerrish
my doorbell has it's own Gmail address - you can email to ring it. And no - will NOT give that number out :)
- Rob La Gesse
Remember when we all had to carry backpacks in school?
- Arnie Klaus
Wasn't Bluetooth supposed to handle all this?
- Ken Sheppardson
My backpack is in the cloud now...
- Cliff Gerrish
Alright guys, I gotta go. Keep up the good debate!
- Kenny
I need to go look at how Activitystrea.ms handle location and proximity...
- Ken Sheppardson
Cliff, does that mean just on the internet or do you mean virtual hosting as in AWS or Rackspace etc
- Matt Terenzio
will iPhone apps run on all these different types of devices? does Apple have the resources to make that happen?
- scott anderson
Bump is on the Android as well
- Kenny
I just want seamless handoff between my cell phone and desk phone
- Ken Sheppardson
Matt, all sorts of cloudish locations..
- Cliff Gerrish
I ask because someone used cloud at work today and I'm pretty sure they meant just on a server. I didn't ask.
- Matt Terenzio
We don't really have an identity concept (or agency) that works with this node linking idea.
- Cliff Gerrish
Of course, my office isn't exactly Cliff level
- Matt Terenzio
It's a different level in the protocol stack, Robert
- Ken Sheppardson
tweetdeck with touch
- Arnie Klaus
i love my Kindle. LOVE IT.
- Karoli
I'm getting a Nook. Dumb name - nice device.
- Rob La Gesse
the techies are gonna be so harsh on the crunchpad
- Marc Delurgio
I love getting instant books. I love sending PDFs over for reading later. I love getting The Nation automatically.
- Karoli
Rob, I'm thinking of getting a Nook for my daughter...to compare.
- Karoli
Books will go down fast in the coming months
- Matt Terenzio
Kindel is bridge technology to the post script generation....Iʻve read many more books through audio.
- Arnie Klaus
As soon as a standard format emerges, it's over
- Matt Terenzio
The Nook looks cool but I'm waiting for the Apple Tablet.
- Robert Scoble
the Nook runs on Android
- scott anderson
Virtual roundtable time... any thoughts on spdy protocol announcement?
- Alberto Saavedra
Scoble - yes - assuming it has a bright-light readable screen. I doubt it.
- Rob La Gesse
scott, that's one of the reasons I want the Nook. (for my daughter, of course...LOL) I want to try an Android device.
- Karoli
I wish, the textbooks comes on ebook usable format instead of watered down version.
- ashish
ashish, agree. textbooks should be ebook, full version.
- Karoli
Using the term "open" to mean seven different things at the same time can be a problem...
- Ken Sheppardson
@ken - glad you opened that line of thought
- Rob La Gesse
Ken: agreed.
- Robert Scoble
imagine if our phones ran on closed networks
- scott anderson
It's really just a question of whether any node can listen and talk over the network.
- Cliff Gerrish
How do we define variable communities?
- Arnie Klaus
Scott: they would be like IM was for years.
- Robert Scoble
Scott: They do. Call Sprint and ask them if you can use your iPhone on the "open" phone network. Or the device you slapped together from parts you got at Fry's
- Ken Sheppardson
good comment Robert (there's your break)
- scott anderson
Good show, Steve. Thanks to all.
- Karoli
thanks, all!
- Rob La Gesse
Great show, thanks.
- Mike Doeff
laters
- Vezquex: God of FF
Will the textbook publishers allow that to happen without lowering profits? I hope they realize that new form interactive ebooks can create more market opportunities.
- ashish
another great show Steve. Your production keeps getting better.
- Paul E. Ester
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...?
scott anderson, Rocky Barbanica, Nir Ben Yona and 4 other people liked this
Should be a good show. Craig Burton always has something interesting to say.
- Cliff Gerrish
Waiting for call.
- Robert Scoble
Looking forward to the show.
- Matt Mastracci
A fellow Utahn - I will be watching :-)
- Jesse Stay
hmmm. silverlight plugin just went kerfluey on me...let's see if it works now.
- Karoli
Still waiting for skype call...
- Robert Scoble
Looks like we're very close to start.
- Robert Scoble
ah..working now.
- Karoli
Chris Messina is on too.
- Robert Scoble
Yay Phil and Craig! Two of my favorite Utahns
- Jesse Stay
Robert's pretty close to having a "lair" there...
- Ken Sheppardson
LIve from @ribbit http://bit.ly/Spawn on Gillmor Gang
- Kevin Marks
robert, i can't imagine going from that to an iphone. your head must explode daily.
- Karoli
Twitter.com FTW!
- Jesse Stay
Actually, I use e-mail for most of my Twitter activity
- Jesse Stay
Robert's head exploding is all part of the show.
- Cliff Gerrish
You guys should be sure to talk about the new Paypal identity proposals
- Jesse Stay
Karoli: info density is pretty crazy! Jesse: I got some good interviews on that yesterday. Should be up on Building43 next week.
- Robert Scoble
where are they again?
- Christopher Harris
Phil and Chris are at http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com
- Ken Sheppardson
thx
- Christopher Harris
I love how all the Identity pieces are fitting together now with OpenID+OAuth Hybrid, WebFinger and XRD and Activity Streams and PoCo at #iiw this week
- Kevin Marks
IIW was great this year.
- Cliff Gerrish
Robert, I'm getting more info on it as well - they want to be much more open than it appeared in the keynote
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: I will try to introduce PayPal's identity moves into this conversation. Also, what @marcglasberg http://icents.net is doing to turn Twitter into a micropayments system for content.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, missed what @marcglasberg is doing - can't wait to hear more
- Jesse Stay
Someone tell Craig to turn the sounds off on his TweetDeck ;-)
- Jesse Stay
and tell them I said hi from the chat (I don't think they're watching this)
- Jesse Stay
"Open ID threat level Orange?"
- Rob La Gesse
OpenID is just putting on long pants, a shirt and a tie.
- Cliff Gerrish
says @chrismessina the Govt is encouraging people to use OpenID as most people have them already.
- Kevin Marks
Badfinger or Webfinger?
- Cliff Gerrish
Email seems like a bad identifier.
- Cliff Gerrish
http://webfinger.org - it is a protocol to map an emial address into an OpenID endpoint - works with gmail and yahoo already
- Kevin Marks
Just ran into this on stackoverflow.com... they have logos for 10 different OpenID providers or your own URL and I think I have IDs on 8 of them... and I have no idea which one I used to create my account.
- Ken Sheppardson
The right number of id providers is 1. Selectors can solve this problem.
- Cliff Gerrish
We should be able to "transform" emails to OpenID, as described here: http://chrissaad.wordpress.com/2008... (see comments)
- Panayotis Vryonis
Hey Kevin how do I get involved in what you guys are doing with OpenID?
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, come to the next IIW.
- Cliff Gerrish
It would be great if Twitter supported OpenID as well as OAuth #iiw
- Kevin Marks
Watching the show but the FF stream is "frozen" from last week?just me?
- Paul Sherer
from iPhone
Twitter as an OpenID provider?
- Ken Sheppardson
Cliff, I wasn't aware of it - that would have been interesting. I was just out there the last 3 days at the Paypal conference.
- Jesse Stay
Paul, refresh. The thread has been updated inside NewsGang.
- Cliff Gerrish
Wow - I didn't realize Paypal was part of the OpenID foundation
- Jesse Stay
@Paul - working fine here. Are you at http://www.building43.com/realtim... ?
- Rob La Gesse
I don't quite understand why we need Salmon independent of Activitystrea.ms. Seems like a "feature" of activitystreams.
- Ken Sheppardson
I'll head over to building34, thanks.
- Paul Sherer
Monica's Activity Streams prezi: http://prezi.com/yxvtypx-aani/ maps out the ideas behind it too
- Kevin Marks
Calling out "comment streams" as some special case of activities seems like a dead end.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, Salmon is just the part that shows how to send the comments upstream, it fits in with Activity Streams fine.
- Kevin Marks
Of course in FF the comment thread can appear in multiple places simultaneously via iframe.
- Cliff Gerrish
So, Kevin, can Salmon support any Activitystreams objects? ... Got it.
- Ken Sheppardson
Salmon I'm Atom... I'm getting lost here
- Frank Paynter
Cool, I'm totally going to rip off the salmon idea and make my own proprietary protocol.
- Vezquex: God of FF
do you need an iFrog to use ribbit?
- Frank Paynter
Okay - I missed the last 15 mins. Did I miss anything?
- Jesse Stay
If Gillmor Gang watchers want Ribbit Mobile, got to http://ribbit.com/reserve.php and use the invite code 'gang09'
- Kevin Marks
Is Messina on the Space Station?
- Jesse Newhart
I wish somebody would put together some sort of over-arching reference document that explains how you build something that uses PSHB, OpenID, OAuth, Salmon, Activitystreams, etc in the "correct" way in an integrated system.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, check out the identity commons.
- Cliff Gerrish
I really wish Phil and Craig were in here. I need to get those guys together for lunch some time. That would be a fun meeting.
- Jesse Stay
I think you can catch both Phil and Craig at the Kynetx conference. It's coming right up.
- Cliff Gerrish
Conference de jour, literally ;-) Can't we all just agree to get together once a year or so in one place and deal with everything at once? :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
how about adding lists to lists? when's that coming?
- Frank Paynter
Ken, that's what the weekly Gillmor Gang is for. Everyone in one place in real time.
- Cliff Gerrish
I love how Atom is so flexible that we can add all these extra layers on top of it. ActivityStreams, Salmon, PSHB, etc
- Matt Mastracci
YES. filters to something manageable.
- Karoli
frank, isn't that what listorious is for? :)
- Karoli
Cliff: It's just that all these conference give me the apparently mistaken impression that there are more than 10 or so folks who I really have to follow ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Karoli... mebbe, but I'm a fan of bundling functionality within the native platform
- Frank Paynter
Seems like building a bunch of translators is the best way to get adoption.
- Cliff Gerrish
Isn't that what Gnip's supposed to be doing?
- Ken Sheppardson
Facebook just needs to remove the 24 hour storage limit and it will be free
- Jesse Stay
@cgerrish yes, translators into Activity Streams rather than n by n translators is an important saving
- Kevin Marks
Cliff, yeah - I'll be at the Kynetx conference
- Jesse Stay
I see Phil all the time - haven't met Craig yet (except online)
- Jesse Stay
Amen Mark - more clients need to support activitystrea.ms
- Jesse Stay
Myspace is still very much in the game
- Jesse Stay
Wait and see - there are some huge things coming to Myspace
- Jesse Stay
So we're all going to speak activitystreams on the global back-end bus and all these sites just become "clients"? Cool. I'm down with that.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, all but Twitter, at least the way they're going
- Jesse Stay
MySpace need a major shift to survive
- Rocky Barbanica
Rocky, keep watching.
- Jesse Stay
But if *everything* else is connected, we can all just pool our API call limits to pull the full feed out of Twitter and translate it to AS
- Ken Sheppardson
Go tell @loic to support Activity Streams from MySpace and Netflix, @scobleizer
- Kevin Marks
That's the theory, Ken. At least until the next time something closed and exciting comes along, ;)
- Matt Mastracci
It will be everyone supports open standards, then you'll also have to support Twitter's own standard - at least if you ask John at Twitter
- Jesse Stay
JK's sane, Jesse... if this all got widespread adoption I think you'd see a different bottom-up attitude from Twitter...
- Ken Sheppardson
The custom adapters actually creates a value proposition.
- Cliff Gerrish
http://cliqset.com is an Activity Streams supporting aggregator, as is MS Live
- Kevin Marks
Facebook needs public indexing to get legit... they can't because of privacy aspect of their service... FriendFeed can provide the opening to public indexing of Facebook users' wall content...
- Frank Paynter
Ken, yeah - I just don't like his attitude around it
- Jesse Stay
anything but FB, please.
- Karoli
Frank, you can use FQL to search Facebook pretty much site-wide (at least as privacy allows)
- Jesse Stay
I can sorta see Twitter's point... I mean Evan came to them a year ago and said "Hey, you should support OMB" and their natural response as "Uh... no.... why? Nobody's using it..."
- Ken Sheppardson
I should note Twitter doesn't allow specific queries like FQL btw
- Jesse Stay
I'd just as soon not search Facebook. or even use it.
- Karoli
Jesse...yahbut, you can't find Facebook content on google
- Frank Paynter
@Frank - yet!
- Rob La Gesse
Frank, yes you can
- Jesse Stay
There's a strong current of relevant discussion on Facebook that is hard for me to ignore
- Frank Paynter
If Activitystreams was implemented widely, I suspect the engineers at Twitter would warm up to it. That might not be a sufficient condition, but it's certainly necessary.
- Ken Sheppardson
sad that no-one from @twitterapi came to IIW this year; @blaine came + helped invent OAuth when they were 1/10th the size
- Kevin Marks
Facebook encourages self-censorship, or disownership, depending. (Basically I don't really want my Republican spouse reading my liberal rants)
- Karoli
@Kevin - they are busy building lists.
- Rob La Gesse
Kevin, yeah - that's been my perception - they're taking no part in any of the open efforts, which concerns me
- Jesse Stay
I think we all scared them off at BearHugCamp last fall ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Kevin, is Facebook there at all? I imagine Recordon's probably there?
- Jesse Stay
That's consistent with what Bret said last week, RE Facebook
- Ken Sheppardson
hubs will be distributed. facebook will lose their advantage.
- scott anderson
scott, i think so too. Google federating wave is one step closer to that...
- Karoli
perfect question
- Rocky Barbanica
Where's Microsoft in all this, btw?
- Ken Sheppardson
MSFT had a big presence at IIW - Information cards (selectors) started with them.
- Cliff Gerrish
Here's another good Google search on Facebook: site:www.facebook.com lists - status updates will very soon also be part of that
- Jesse Stay
What did Scoble just call his wife?
- Cliff Gerrish
As soon as grandmas start using a service, Robert bails... so... y'know... ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Scott, Facebook is becoming distributed
- Jesse Stay
Jesse... thanks for the "site: facebook" clue, but it's weak... I've just been testing it and nothing relevant emerged in response to specific search requests
- Frank Paynter
Ken - MS is busy building layoff packages and not serious software.
- Rob La Gesse
MSFT had a lot of good people at #iiw, and they are really contributing to the Activity Streams and OWF efforts
- Kevin Marks
@KevinMarks. Thanks for the mention. Yes, we (Cliqset) currently normalize activity from 70+ services into activity streams compliant atom feeds. We also share them in real-time through our APIs.
- Darren
Frank, a lot of cool articles about Twitter lists - I thought it was interesting "site:facebook.com lists"
- Jesse Stay
Save the demo for a building43 video :)
- Rob La Gesse
Frank, status updates are also very soon going to be included in that as well. Very soon you'll see those come up in search results.
- Jesse Stay
We will, Rob
- Rocky Barbanica
Seeing individual engineers and marketing folks from MSFT at different events reminds me alot of my old NASA days, when you'd always find some sort of "rogue" engineer off working on pretty much any project you can imagine. Every once in a while all the "rogue" engineers from the different centers who were working on similar projects would get together... but they were rarely funded and projects never went anywhere. But on the flip side... I'm glad they're involved :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Scoble is such a non-programmer. Everything he says that's hard sounds easy. "How do I bundle 3 tweets?" Just use take their URIs or copy the text.
- Vezquex: God of FF
Interesting show.
- Rob La Gesse
Thanks for the info Jesse
- Frank Paynter
Oh man...
- Rocky Barbanica
thanks, steve
- Karoli
Vezquex: sorry, that just does NOT do it for me.
- Robert Scoble
what more do you need?
- Vezquex: God of FF
Vezquex: I want to put them on a page and have them look like Tweets, mixed with YouTUbe videos, mixed with photos. Make it freaking easy. Copy and pasting and doing screen captures is NOT easy for most people.
- Robert Scoble
Did they mention the Paypal identification proposal at all? I think I missed it.
- Jesse Stay
Just in passing, Jesse
- Ken Sheppardson
We never got to it Jesse
- Craig Burton
Ken, I'm very fascinated by that, because it's true identity. If they can make that open along with the existing open standards around identity they're going to do some great things. I'm supposed to get a briefing by them soon (I hope).
- Jesse Stay
Vezquex: look at the Tweets I put into Wordpress: http://scobleizer.com/2009... that took a LOT of work. Way too much for normal people and WAY too much for real-time work. Did you watch the World Series last night? MSNBC had a Tweet out AS THE BALL HIT THE GLOVE TO END THE GAME!
- Robert Scoble
Craig, great seeing you, btw! I don't think we've ever met in person.
- Jesse Stay
This is a real time world and copying and pasting URLs is too freaking hard.
- Robert Scoble
Thanks Jesse, we need to make that happen.
- Craig Burton
Plus, I do everything on my iPhone now. Did you remember how we broke the news of Facebook buying FriendFeed? That entire thing was done from an iPhone, including an audio interview.
- Robert Scoble
Craig, just sent you and Phil an e-mail. Let's definitely make it happen.
- Jesse Stay
Paypal is still very weak. They are not quite clued in to the selector imperative.
- Craig Burton
Jesse: applications running on the open web will always be able to innovate and provide more functionality than apps running on top of Facebook. With activity streams, hubs, openid, etc. the reduced friction advantage that Facebook has is diminished.
- scott anderson
Craig, that's my worry
- Jesse Stay
Scott, Facebook is joining the open web
- Jesse Stay
it's all talk until it happens
- scott anderson
they also said Beacon was going to be revolutionary
- scott anderson
Facebook is an activitystrea.ms provider right now: http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.... They are also currently an openid provider.
- Jesse Stay
Facebook has openID?
- Matt Mastracci
I think you see it now with the work Recordon and the ex-FriendFeeders are doing... but the IP limits, 24hr cache limits, and EULA mythology seems to cast a shadow over everything
- Ken Sheppardson
openid support is defensive move
- scott anderson
BTW, most this stuff was around even before Recordon came on board
- Jesse Stay
Yeah, I realized that after I wrote that, Jesse... he's just sorta the flag bearer these days
- Ken Sheppardson
Scott, they've had that support for at least 6 months now
- Jesse Stay
Facebook led much of the activitystrea.ms standard - it is not a defensive move. They were part of the organization, and are also members of the openid foundation. They're leaders in this, not followers.
- Jesse Stay
openid support is a defensive move because they don't want google to dominate the openid space. if activity stream content expires after some period of time when it leaves Facebook, then that is another defensive move and one that is not truly open.
- scott anderson
Scott, I'm not sure they've said much about that content expiring. As long as you're a user I'm pretty sure you're able to get your content out, no exceptions. Developers have a few more strict rules, but nothing's stopping a client from enabling that for users themselves. The RSS News Feed app on Facebook's still around, so I think they're opening up to enabling that: http://www.facebook.com/apps...
- Jesse Stay
Also, see Facebook's latest news - their entire JS client library is now open source on GitHub: http://bit.ly/48FO1s
- Jesse Stay
Messina additional on IIW http://www.thesocialweb.tv/blog...
- Steve Gillmor
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Susan Beebe, Jack, Christian Burns and 15 other people liked this
What's the topic for today?
- Matt Mastracci
Threadsy. The Gillmor Gang should be great today. Google/Mr. Softy and Tw*tter...
- Cliff Gerrish
Matt: there are too many things to talk about today. Twitter. Flickr. Windows 7. Etc Etc.
- Robert Scoble
I'm standing by waiting for the Skype call, by the way.
- Robert Scoble
Exciting week... Mainstreaming of real-time search and a new Windows rev.
- Matt Mastracci
We are connecting everyone now. Just a few more minutes and we'll be on air.
- Robert Scoble
We are live!
- Robert Scoble
Everything is dead.
- Ken Sheppardson
Long live everything
- Mike Doeff
omg - people still using FF? :)
- Nick Halstead
isn't that what Friendfeed does?
- Karoli
No, it's different, Karoli. I've also used it a bit, and it's more of a "universal inbox" than FriendFeed. It's just a client, rather than a stand-alone service.
- Ken Sheppardson
Is there a recording of the Tim Berners-Lee conversation somewhere?
- Mike Doeff
thanks, Ken. It's one of those services that definitely interests me...if I ever get in. :)
- Karoli
Nick: I still use RSS too. Saying something is dead is dead.
- Robert Scoble
"Everything is Broken" -Bob Dylan
- Jerome Hughes
We individually kill and give life to things every day. I don't use Google Reader much anymore, for instance. So to me Google Reader is dead.
- Robert Scoble
I used to think I'd want a universal inbox, but stuff like Threadsy have reminded me that I really want different "layers"/urgency in my inbox, e.g. SMS > IM > email
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert, I still use Google Reader...but only when what I'm seeing on Twitter/Friendfeed doesn't feel balanced to me. I can usually get that balance by going back to GR.
- Karoli
Karoli: lists will bring that balance to Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
Ken, I'd definitely need filters or I'd just run away from the inbox screaming...
- Karoli
I still use GR - but I have about 10 feeds - the rest I get supplied by Twitter/TweetMeme
- Nick Halstead
the issue i have with tweetmeme, etc is how easily the echo chamber develops. I love it, but want to reach outside of it for info sometimes.
- Karoli
Karoli: I agree - the core categories will always be full of the echo/main crowd - but we will soon launch the ability for you to build your own channels that are filtered to your 'exact' requirements
- Nick Halstead
Used Threadsy 2 weeks ago, and okay concept, needs work still.
- JimmyJet
In the demo yesterday, Microsoft claimed that their Bing/Twitter search results filter out spam and surfaces quality results based on "social relevance"
- Mike Doeff
because it's a beta for a few 1000s....wait for lists to be rolled out...
- Antonella Stellacci
Mike, they're weighting it based on some kind of authority?
- Karoli
so "normal" people don't want to find new friends who share their interests?
- Jerome Hughes
Whatever it is, it's got to work for 'normal' people.
- Cliff Gerrish
@mikedoeff: Who decides "social relevance"? @Scobleizer Who is to say that this "social relevance' will be a democratic system? How can we prevent a new SUL/TechCrunch to happen, with people being disqualified for having "different" views?
- Antonella Stellacci
They called it "social relevance" but didn't really drill into what that means. Maybe some combination of # of followers, number of tweets, age of the account, verified status, etc.
- Mike Doeff
When will "normal" people get access to Twitter lists? I don't have it on my account. I might start using Twitter if I did.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ah...there's the 'track' ref. It's like coming home. :)
- Karoli
Yeah, I'm not one of the cool kids who get the lists feature on Twitter. :)
- Karoli
Potential issue with Twitter lists: Someone posts a list of CIO's. Sales rep's from Oracle, SAP, etc. use that list to pitch their products to those CIO's with @messages or DM's. Or they could find all of the people inside a company by finding a company list. It'll be like a free version of Jigsaw.
- Mike Doeff
lists =meta-data....so discovery of new users is one of the options...
- Antonella Stellacci
@mike u can DM a list? (sry for the stupid question, I don't have lists :(
- Antonella Stellacci
Is there convergence on a standard for lists, or is it too early?
- Cliff Gerrish
I wonder which will win out: sending stuff out to specified groups/audiences, or just sending stuff out to "everyone", and having whatever permissions you've assigned to specific people determine whether or not they see it. I guess it's the same thing. Nevermind. ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Antonella, you can't DM a list but it's an easy way to collect twitter id's in a specific niche. You can go down the list and follow people individually.
- Mike Doeff
thanks Mike.
- Antonella Stellacci
Adding real username/URLs to Facebook was remedial.
- Ken Sheppardson
Cliff: Twitter will be the defacto list standard almost overnight.
- Robert Scoble
Mike: yes, @reply spam is a big problem. One that's solveable, though.
- Robert Scoble
Certainly, Identi.ca will follow suit, but will Facebook?
- Cliff Gerrish
And Mike, if a major company did @reply spam they would see a huge negative PR backlash.
- Robert Scoble
I wouldn't be so sure about Identica. Their feature set has already diverged from Twitter's. e.g. Groups http://identi.ca/doc/groups
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, they'll have to support both.
- Cliff Gerrish
Robert, I agree - would be a very bad move if PR firm, sales people, etc. abuse the lists features. They'll end up on a PR Twitter blacklist :)
- Mike Doeff
It centralizes with the user -- not with the services. This ties in to the purpose-centric web and the sidewiki discussion.
- Cliff Gerrish
So Threadsy isn't a service? Where's the line between services and clients?
- Ken Sheppardson
So will we see search come to Threadsy streams?
- JimmyJet
Is FriendFeed a client or a service?
- Ken Sheppardson
Mint is a front end to Yodlee.
- Cliff Gerrish
Kevin - send video.
- Cliff Gerrish
How long will it take Google to kill Threadsy with Gmail?
- Ken Sheppardson
Private room, Robert.
- Ken Sheppardson
Wonʻt Wave to that?
- Arnie Klaus
Robert: Click on your entry, click "Edit > Disable Comments"
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: no. I want my curation to be public. Arnie: Wave could be useful.
- Robert Scoble
Ken: if I turned off comments I won't have the ability to type anything underneath the item.
- Robert Scoble
Arnie: Wave would be useful if it weren't stuck in the very lame email metaphor.
- Robert Scoble
But is that all you want to do? Be able to add comments to your post without other people being able to do so? I'm a little confused...
- Ken Sheppardson
Arnie: Wave is something I'm watching a lot.
- Robert Scoble
Ken: I want to curate and put it on MY OWN STREAM. Without you being there.
- Robert Scoble
..or you want to use FriendFeed as a text editor?
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: FriendFeed doesn't work for what I want.
- Robert Scoble
Ken: FriendFeed got close, though.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, as long as none of us have to read it. Go ahead and make your own stream.
- Cliff Gerrish
I keep hearing you say that, Robert. I'm trying to understand exactly what it means. What about a private room/group?
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert: I see a connect between Wave and the Twitter deal achieving curation
- Arnie Klaus
Ken: now you understannd why I'm so frustrated with FriendFeed. It won't get many new features.
- Robert Scoble
Arnie: me too.
- Robert Scoble
Wave traps me...I want the ability to opt out of specific waves.
- Karoli
Ken: Private groups don't do what I want. I want a public curation where everyone can watch JUST ME.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Would "only let me comment on this entry" do it?
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: very close. But now we need to go further. Let me post a video there. An audio there. A picture there. And bring in other tweets and items.
- Robert Scoble
The reality is that no one's interested in 'only scoble' -- everyone wants to create their own mix.
- Cliff Gerrish
Robert: So... a room where only admins (i.e. you) can post and comment, but everyone can view?
- Ken Sheppardson
Cliff: absolutely not true. My blog proves you wrong.
- Robert Scoble
Ken: now you are getting there.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I'm only interested in certain posts from your blog. I don't need the whole stream. You're in my mix, you just don't know it.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff: and to rub salt in a wound. Twitter proves you wrong.
- Robert Scoble
Every time Steve says, "Rob?" - I start to answer :)
- Rob La Gesse
Cliff: that's cool. So you are listening to a group curation then.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: That's a pretty minor incremental fix, I'd think. Right now there are three types of rooms 1) Private, 2) Standard only admins can post, anyone can comment, 3) Public. Seems like a fourth type where only admins can post/comment but everyone can view would be pretty easy.
- Ken Sheppardson
Hope Threadsy has security for the UN's/PW's they require for each service??
- JimmyJet
Scoble, yes. I use a microcommunity to filter items -- not full feeds.
- Cliff Gerrish
Ken: even easy stuff takes engineering time.
- Robert Scoble
Threadsy in Chrome gets a basic auth pop up from twitter.com for my API credentials every time it tries to access Twitter :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Cliff: I know. I have seen this. Sort of like how TechMeme works.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Sure, but asking Paul to add a fourth room type sure seems easier than casting out some general lazyweb request for curation tools ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Scoble, techmeme is read only. This is a little different.
- Cliff Gerrish
Ken: FriendFeed has no engineering team working on many new features. I've already asked for new features. I've been asking for this stuff for years.
- Robert Scoble
Ken: Threadsy in Chrome (4): I am no longer getting a request to relog or give permission to twitter. refreshing auto like it should
- amarquart
Does Facebook still prevent developers from caching data for more than 24hrs?
- Ken Sheppardson
Threadsy seems to define the pipe that exists between services. The Oauth issue is critical -- it comes bak to identity.
- Cliff Gerrish
Ken: I believe so.
- Robert Scoble
Windows is dead.
- Ken Sheppardson
Flickr is dead.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: Windows is Amazon's top seller. I want to be dead like that.
- Robert Scoble
Scoble, we are already giving curated content e.g. this channel that is defined by 20 of the top Twitterati - http://twitterati.tweetmeme.com/ - soon these channels can be built by anyone
- Nick Halstead
Ok - i didnt get in on this till now - will it be archived?
- Chris Jackson
Yeah, it'll be published to YouTube in a day or so.
- Cliff Gerrish
Nick: that's not really what I want?
- Robert Scoble
ok
- Chris Jackson
Any timeframe from Twitter on when us lowly masses will get lists?
- Ken Sheppardson
im still waiting for twitter lists to hit my account.
- Chris Jackson
let them eat cake! classic.
- amarquart
Ken: a few weeks.
- Robert Scoble
Can I trade Wave invites for List access?
- Ken Sheppardson
RSS???
- Ken Sheppardson
Steve and Robert - the Gillmor Gang has become my most favorite source of social news and trends watch.
- Chris Jackson
Thanks Chris!
- Robert Scoble
:) funny Ken
- Chris Jackson
Translation: No idea.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: translation: "FriendFeed is not worth wasting engineering effort on."
- Robert Scoble
Does Threadsy have any sort of Activitystrea.ms support?
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: I don't know.
- Robert Scoble
Thanks, great show.
- JimmyJet
Thanks to Steve and all, nice to finally catch the show in real time again!
- Jerome Hughes
Good show
- Eric Logan
very good show...wish my phone hadn't rung at the end, but I still got my fix :)
- Karoli
The after show is pretty good too. Marks: why doesn't Twitter have searched scoped to the people I follow?
- Cliff Gerrish
Missed it again. I'll be back.
- Matt Terenzio
RSS?? (which we all know is dead, ..but still); mp3 ?? Steve, I understand your effort to make a point by inconveniencing us with lack of rss, I get it, but from that stage further it is just pain in the a**.
- Mindaugas Dagys
Thanks Ken, but the last bootleg there at the moment is GillmorGang2009.10.15
- Mindaugas Dagys
The RSS feed for the Youtube channel is http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds... and after a new show is uploaded there, I'll update the bootleg feed
- Jack
Adding to the 1980s photo meme: Here are my 1983 and 1985 contributions. :-)
ffcode, Felicia Yue, rowlikeagirl and 66 other people liked this
Awesome Louis! :)
- Nicholas Kreidberg
H-O-T
- Mona Nomura
Nice bowtie!!! I LOVE bowties.
- Mattie Kenny
Don't make me pull out my 1980s Speedo pics!
- Jesse Stay
Awww... :))
- Anna Haro
Look at that young go-getter!
- Mo Kargas
LOVE.
- Derrick
omg. so cuuuuuute
- Erin @queenofspain
Cute photos. :-)
- Håkan Dahlström
Wife says, "Oh no, not the little nerd photos." Oh yeah, where is her FriendFeed account and photos? Hmmm?
- Louis Gray
haha so confused, half nerd, half cool kid, ya thats louis
- sean percival
اینجا رو =)))
- 1Fathi
Louis: She's got her defense sorted out with no account eh? :D Maybe if you're in for a bit of risk taking.... post hers! :D
- Mo Kargas
Love these. That first one is so fantastic.
- Ayşe E.
Yep, that fist pic is so much WIN. :D
- Anna Haro
OMG that first one is tooooooo cute!
- Adriana
*bump*
- Rodfather
It is definitely you ;)
- Alp
Both great pics
- Mo Kargas
Awesome! The bowtie is perfect!!!!
- Rachel Lea Fox
you look very smart even then
- Thomas Power
One of mine, from '81, I think http://twitpic.com/27xn
- Rob La Gesse
that first pic is absolute 100% undiluted WIN Louis!
- Parth Awasthi
Bump for good times.
- Mark Krynsky
yes a geek
- Thomas Power
Why Twitter's lists are, @jackdwilliams asked, going to cause companies trouble:
Keith - @tsudo, Brendan, Daniel Rowley and 6 other people liked this
Now that ANYONE can make a list of corporate employees it's VERY easy for the public to watch a group and make judgments about that group. So, if you have a bunch of employees all talking about Dallas football, your customers are making judgments about whether they want to do business with them.
- Robert Scoble
LOL you're posting without even posting the answer
- Loic Le Meur
Loic: I just posted the answer.
- Robert Scoble
So, if your employees all start posting their political views, for instance, won't that cause trouble? "I don't want to do business with that company, it sounds like a bunch of xxxxxxxxx."
- Robert Scoble
ad hoc lists also provides information for the social engineering side of the malware crowd
- WarLord
Maybe there should be a way for people to remove themselves from lists once it goes public. Seems like a relatively small concern, but then again I might be more open-minded than the average sheep. ;)
- Nicholas Cole
Also, what if there is brand disonance? It was hard to watch before AS A GROUP. But now? I already have a group list of Rackspace that has 200 employees on it and that isn't even finished yet. So, now you'll be able to study us as a group in a much easier way than before.
- Robert Scoble
Businesses are built on people - so having a personality is not in and of itself a bad thing (actually, I prefer it to a total lack of personality). But that being said, it is the funneling of these Tweets into one channel that develops an overall "sense" of a company that may or may not be what you intend.
- Rob La Gesse
Nicholas: you can remove yourself from lists.
- Robert Scoble
You can block the list curator and you will not be on their list
- Brian Ahier
This is where the trick of corporate versus personal accounts comes in.
- joebrooks
Oh, cool. I haven't been listed on any yet which is why I haven't noticed, heh.
- Nicholas Cole
Rob: right. Like I said, I hope you hired smart people (Rackspace did) because if you didn't your customers will be able to see right through that.
- Robert Scoble
joebrooks: the problem is that Twitter is more personal than corporate. I recommend always behaving online as if you are a corporate representative anyway. Even behind closed doors or on Facebook. That way you never are bitten.
- Robert Scoble
Ultimately having employees that do not reflect the values of the company will come out - social media only accelerates the process
- Brian Ahier
Nicholas: what's your Twitter account? I'll go see if I can put you on a list. Heheh.
- Robert Scoble
just added http://twitter.com/bithaze to my technology list :-)
- Brian Ahier
Rob: exactly..the real problem will be with the employees, not the employers. Particularly with employers who aren't hip to social networking and the workplace...those that embrace it could use the group function as a powerful means of demonstrating diversity, flexibility, identity
- Chad Gesser
from iPhone
The attitude in this part of the world (Middle East) is "I don't want anyone to see my employees" so this is going to fail, at least in the short term, here. There's going to be a walloping, and fast-growing, disconnect. *sigh*
- Alexander McNabb
Any company that ONLY hires like-minded employees is a company destined to stagnate and fail. How you train and encourage those outliers to communicate will make you or break you. You NEED that discourse to grow. But it doesn't have to be public discourse (and rarely is it beneficial when it is).
- Rob La Gesse
Alexander: companies that get Twitter's power to build better customer-employee relations (which brings a LOT of goodness) will do better than those that stick their head in the sand.
- Robert Scoble
It is one thing to have diverrsity of viewpoint, but another altogether to not reflect "values" - anyone that doesn't do business with a company because their employees root for fottball teams or political parties is not thinking very clearly IMHO
- Brian Ahier
interesting to think how I could actually use this as a real time microblogging/qualitative research tool...combining it with text g and smartphones :)
- Chad Gesser
from iPhone
Brian got it right, I'm @bithaze. I see the link now; thanks for pointing it out. Feel free to remove if you'd like; I'm not trying to stroke my own feathers here for the sake of testing. :)
- Nicholas Cole
@Brian, but that happens *all* the time. The movie star or singer that expresses a political viewpoint gets abandoned by those who disagree.
- Brent Logan
Robert. Totally agree, but we're behind here. We're behind in connectivity, attitude towards business and customers (many businesses are sole distributors) and particularly towards transparency. We have some leaders, but all too few. And lists is going to scare many away, I fear. I hope not, but I fear.
- Alexander McNabb
I'm bored about friendfeed :-) you will be the only one using it soon!
- Loic Le Meur
Nicholas: I read through some of your tweets and will keep you in the stream for a while :-) you look interesting...
- Brian Ahier
Alexander: that's OK, because it will give the great companies room to get PR credit while the bad ones look lame.
- Robert Scoble
I don't have the lists feature yet. But I think it is great. Allows people like me to follow the favorites even if we might be following tens of thousands.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Is it transparency, or co-opting employees to make them be corporate droids 24/7?
- Brent Logan
Brilliant! "it will give the great companies room to get PR credit while the bad ones look lame"
- Brian Ahier
We had quite a debate at my hospital on whether to block social media - fortunately brighter minds prevailed
- Brian Ahier
Robert: LOL. Yes, true. Oddly enough the hotel sector here in UAE embraced Twitter first and fastest, so let's see what they make of lists! The telcos are just starting to climb on board... and many are learning, the hard way, that the old one-way model of advertising don't work on social platforms. Which provides occasional amusement...
- Alexander McNabb
Blocking social media is so stupid.
- Paramendra Bhagat
If lists is built in a way that it lets me focus on different people/topics depending on the task I am currently engaged in - I will love it. Since I don't have it, I am not sure yet.
- Rob La Gesse
What Rob said.
- Alexander McNabb
Curation aggregators like http://listorious.com will make the job easier
- Brian Ahier
Rob. You build your own lists. So you decide. But I don't have it yet either. But I know.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Rob: How do you mean? Lists are fairly arbitrary so I'm not sure I understand what specifically you have in mind.
- Nicholas Cole
Lists of corporate employees will typically only be a subset of those employees (the ones on Twitter) and thus can't be expected to represent the whole company regardless
- Eric Andersen
I could build one list of people I work with, another of people with whom I might share a hobby, a third of people who are close friend, the fourth of my favorite web stars, people like Scoble.
- Paramendra Bhagat
"I don't know what I can't touch". So I don;t know how lists will fit in my work-flow - which changes drastically from 8-12 am, 12-5pm, and then again from 5pm-12am - and beyond.
- Rob La Gesse
One of the powerful features of Lists is the ability to follow other list streams - listreams (to coin a term)
- Brian Ahier
The issue Robert brings up only applies to very small companies I think.
- Eric Andersen
So you can follow lists created by other people, you mean?
- Paramendra Bhagat
BTW you *can* remove yourself from a list - simply block the list owner.
- Eric Andersen
I wish you could do it without blocking the owner.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Paramendra: I have built some good lists and follow a few really great ones created by others as well
- Brian Ahier
Agree - should be able to opt out of lists without blocking or unfollowing.
- Rob La Gesse
I don't think in the end you will need to block the owner, just their ability to put you on a list... There will eventually be a setting that will allow you to approve before being added to lists if you choose
- Brian Ahier
Paramendra: Yes, you can follow others' lists. It just adds a link to their list in your /home sidebar.
- Nicholas Cole
Brian. I don't have the lists feature yet. So I can only express jealousy. ;-)
- Paramendra Bhagat
Nic. I can't wait to get the lists feature for me. I have only read about it so far. I guess they are rolling from the west. I am on the east coast.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Rob: blocking a list just is that, removing yourself from a list.
- Robert Scoble
My best lists if you have the feature: Healthcare: http://twitter.com/ahier... - Official Government accounts: http://twitter.com/ahier... - Every hospital on Twitter: http://twitter.com/ahier...
- Brian Ahier
Any smart ideas for getting on the Lists beta? If they're rolling out from the east coast, Dubai'll be getting access next winter...
- Alexander McNabb
Paramendra: the list feature was delivered to a few thousand randomly-chosen Twitter users. Plus a few dozen tech bloggers and influentials.
- Robert Scoble
Alexander: no way to get people onto the beta, sorry.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: So if you block a list you do not block the owner? cool!
- Brian Ahier
Alexander. I just made that up. I don't think they are doing it exactly that way, but it sure feels that way to me.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Robert. I can't wait.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Brian. Good work. Keep building them.
- Paramendra Bhagat
I was pretty happy when Tim O'Reilly put me on his Mindcaster list - being followed is cool but being listed is even better :-D
- Brian Ahier
This is so interesting - wracking my brain thinking about how to demystify for small businesses. There's definitely an aspect to lists that could simplify things for companies that are new to Twitter...but it could also be a new form of chaos and complexity that will confuse the hell out of many.
- Alex Hawkinson
Twitter should keep growing to add more and more new features like this one, first perhaps put out there by independent Twitter clients/apps.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Anyone know when Lists will be exposed via the API?
- Alex Hawkinson
Some of the most awaited betas I have ever gotten into have ended up underwhelming. So I can wait for Lists. Remember Joost? I barely do.
- Rob La Gesse
So Robert. Have lists fundamentally changed your Twitter experience?
- Paramendra Bhagat
Paramendra: absolutely.
- Robert Scoble
Robert. Good to know. That is what I was guessing.
- Paramendra Bhagat
'sokay, Paramendra. I thought I'd try for the sympathy vote... :) From what I can see of Lists it could be massive, though... Even if we'll be slow to use it, which will lag adoption because much of Twitter's utility comes from scale, no?
- Alexander McNabb
Brian: Steve Case put me on his special list. I'll tell ya THAT was a big ego boost.
- Robert Scoble
I think tags would have been more interesting than lists. Then I could create search groups that include multiple tags - without including everyone in the lists.
- Rob La Gesse
Rob. Lists have been tried and tested on the likes of TweetDeck. They are as fundamental to me as the RT option. Lists will be a hit.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Robert. Why are you surprised to be on Steve Case' list? You are big. Don't you know?
- Paramendra Bhagat
Rob: lists ARE tags. Think about it.
- Robert Scoble
I am sure lists will be a hit - hell, ANY new feature in Twitter is a hit (because there are so few of them!) :)
- Rob La Gesse
Paramendra: I'm a fan boy as much as anyone.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Yeah, it will be very interesting to see how folks behave when it goes public and people find out what lists they are on, and what lists they are NOT on ;-)
- Brian Ahier
Rob: you might have to eat your words when the new RT feature comes out. I hear that is VERY controversial.
- Robert Scoble
I've been thinking that about tags too, Rob. Also, maybe it's just another layer of abstraction, but public and private seem a little too... polar for my likes.
- Nicholas Cole
Robert: You're not a fan boy....you HAVE fan boys.
- Sean Montgomery
Scoble - no, I don't think so - lists are much less granular. (from what I hear)
- Rob La Gesse
Scoble - I often eat my words. That is why I make sure they are all extra tasty :)
- Rob La Gesse
Robert. Steve Case follows me. That happened because I explicitly asked him to. :-) I knew I was not going to be famous fast enough. So I plain asked.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Rob: they are less granular because you are limited to 20 of them. :-)
- Robert Scoble
I have a private list because I don't want to be divisive on certain issues...
- Brian Ahier
You are limited to 20 lists? Wow.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Brian: I deleted a few lists already because they would make people feel bad. Especially one called "people I've met." There is NO WAY I can remember everyone I've met so I would take a lot of shit about that.
- Robert Scoble
Paramendra: per Twitter account. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Why would the RT feature be controversial? It is so mainstream.
- Paramendra Bhagat
WIth tags I could create a follow group of "met, boulder, fun, beer, interesting" - how do I do THAT with lists?
- Rob La Gesse
Robert. I have only one Twitter account. I like it that way. But 20 are enough, if you ask me.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Robert: 20 lists limit aside, there are some list ideas I have that I want to share with only certain people, but I feel like that defeats the purpose of lists. And Twitter doesn't really identifying information like networks that Facebook, for example, does.
- Nicholas Cole
I have 9 Twitter accounts - 20 are nowhere near enough :)
- Rob La Gesse
(all but one of those are job-related)
- Rob La Gesse
Rob: You can do that with lists, but you'd quickly run out of lists if the limit stays.
- Nicholas Cole
Lists will also help to score influence. Scoble is listed on 327 lists so far (the most I have seen yet)! A ratio of list membership to number of followers will be a new metric for authority...
- Brian Ahier
How many people can you add to any one list? As many as you want?
- Paramendra Bhagat
Rob: create five lists and put me on all five. :-)
- Robert Scoble
I think the 500 limit was lifted - I saw one today that over 900
- Brian Ahier
Brian. You are right about that new metric of authority.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Nicholas - exactly - that's why I would have done tags first. Easy to creat lists based on tags. Harder to create meaningful tags based on lists.
- Rob La Gesse
Brian: really? That's cool!
- Robert Scoble
I haven't heard anything about a per-list follows list. Then again I haven't gone around adding hundreds of people to a list since I only follow a small handful right now.
- Nicholas Cole
Scoble. All you do is talk. How do you get so popular? .... Kidding. I know how.
- Paramendra Bhagat
You become popular because you really, truly "get" social media.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Paramendra: I share my fame. That gets me more. Ask anyone who's been on my Twitter account or on our videos.
- Robert Scoble
Ah - why is Scoble popular? Someone should write the book. I'm starting to feel qualified :P
- Rob La Gesse
Rob: Conceptually, I guess lists and tags are similar. I just have this nagging feeling that they're distinct, though I can't quite explain why.
- Nicholas Cole
The account had created a list with all their >900 followers on a list - it was strangely compelling...
- Brian Ahier
Add me to your Twitter account. :-) That is how I got on Steve Case' Twitter account. I am paramendra on Twitter. My first name.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Nicholas. You lose with with the tags talk.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Paramendra: I can't follow more people tonight.
- Robert Scoble
paramendra you are on 5 lists now...
- Brian Ahier
Scoble: Okay. Tomorrow then. :-)
- Paramendra Bhagat
Well, I'll follow you anyway Paramendra. :) Sucks as a consolation prize, I know... :)
- Alexander McNabb
Brian. I am on 5 lists. Wow?
- Paramendra Bhagat
Lists and tags are NOT similar. You can assign multiple tags, or a single tag to an individual, then group those into lists in really interesting ways. If you try to group lists, you are grouping the entire list - not ust based on sub-tags that are more defining.
- Rob La Gesse
Alexander. Much appreciated.
- Paramendra Bhagat
One site has me as Twitter number 12 in NYC. NYC Twitter Elite.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Paramendra: Lose with? Not sure if you actually mean "with" or if you just typed it twice accidentally.
- Nicholas Cole
Demi Moore and I signed up on Twitter the same day.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Am I on any lists? I don't have lists yet, so I have no way of knowing...
- Dennis Jernberg
Tags are more granular - just like in Wordpress. Categories are less granular. Categories are lists.
- Rob La Gesse
Paramendra: @winland/blogsbookswriters @sdweathers/worldfriends @PeractoVita/friends @happybanana/bananas @ahier/technology
- Brian Ahier
Rob: I think that's it. Hierarchical lists. And Dennis, you're on eight lists. :)
- Nicholas Cole
Dennis: you are on eight lists already.
- Robert Scoble
I am @ahier
- Brian Ahier
Brian. Thanks. I will look up as soon as Twitter allows me to.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Got ya.
- Paramendra Bhagat
So I want to start a list (if only I could) called, "Scoble's next boss" :)
- Rob La Gesse
HE would NOT be in the list, of course :)
- Rob La Gesse
Rob: heheh.
- Robert Scoble
Well, I'm off to play with the kids. See ya.
- Robert Scoble
Brian. I tried to follow you. But looks like just like Scoble I can't follow any more people tonight.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Nite, Scobes
- Rob La Gesse
Robert - you are now 328! (just included you in journalists - new media is the new journalism)
- Brian Ahier
Scoble. Have fun. You make FriendFeed happen.
- Paramendra Bhagat
Scoble leaves, thread dies?
- Rob La Gesse
Nite all - thanks for the great convo
- Brian Ahier
Speaking of how many times a person is listed, I don't like how it also counts lists made by that same user. Kind of self-aggrandizing, no? :P
- Nicholas Cole
Well, isn;t that what Twitter is for? :)
- Rob La Gesse
Thank you Robert for the response and deeper insight into responsible Twitter dialog and new lists feature, hmmm I'm going to keep being myself and hopefully customers will not punt my employeer because I offend or defend something I personally dig or oppose. Rock on!
- j a c k Williams
True, Rob, but those are self-nominations, not really organic ones.
- Nicholas Cole
Welcome to the future of Twitter.
- Rob La Gesse
The future is now.
- Paramendra Bhagat
And there is no escaping it - because we don;t really control it.
- Rob La Gesse
Guess I am out as well. Midnight on a Monday :) Take care, all.
- Rob La Gesse
twitter being a better, more effective product is a challenge like all good opportunities :)
- Mike Chelen
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Daniel Chow, Michael Pinto, Troy Benohanian and 7 other people liked this
We are close to being live now. Just a couple more minutes.
- Robert Scoble
http://twitter.com/dens Dennis Crowley, co-founder of Foursquare is our special guest.
- Robert Scoble
I'm still not clear on what's good about this...
- Cliff Gerrish
please ask Dennis when Foursquare will roll out in europe
- HansVanRock
Cliff: there are three things that I get out of Foursquare: 1. I see what my friends are doing. That lets me meet them in real life and keep track of what they are doing. 2. It's a game, so I can play it to compete with my friends. 3. I can get tips from my friends for the location that I currently am at.
- Robert Scoble
Hans: it just launched in London last week.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, the tips seem good. Do you need to check in to get them?
- Cliff Gerrish
Checking-in is like closing the "sales" loop for venues. FourSquare is a disruptor in mobile marketing and users are happy and engaged....
- Antonella Stellacci
Cliff: yes. Because checking in is how you tell the system where you are.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: London i don´t consider as europe, it´s an island lost at sea ;-)
- HansVanRock
re new places, check their blog http://foursquare.tumblr.com/post... for a list of new cities
- Antonella Stellacci
Can you privately check in, or is it alway a public gesture.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff: yes. You can keep your location secret.
- Robert Scoble
HansVanRock: They also have Amsterdam.
- 321
321: who will be brave enough to check in at a coffee shop? :-)
- Robert Scoble
:-)/
- HansVanRock
Geolocation, augmented reality, etc. Foursquare seems like a simple entre to this world.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff: it looks simple, just like Twitter looks simple. But that's deceiving.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I meant 'simple' in the most complimentary way. Simple works.
- Cliff Gerrish
Regarding real people in augmented reality, check this out: http://blog.brightkite.com/2009...
- Martin May
Mobile advertising is a multi-billion dollars business. ....even Twitter with geo-location API and Facebook mobile will want a share of it..
- Antonella Stellacci
Loop and latency are also key elements.
- Cliff Gerrish
Hey, Gillmor, nice camera angle of your studio!
- Robert Scoble
Are these features or companies?
- Cliff Gerrish
widgets will soon start talking to each other and exchanging data. that's when user constructed solutions start getting interesting.
- scott anderson
Are there enough economics in a distributed widget mesh?
- Cliff Gerrish
widgets will be front end for services. that's where the economics come from.
- scott anderson
If you wrap up 5 widgets in a package - high risk, great leverage, low economics
- Cliff Gerrish
If you are dependent on more systems, doesn't that increase your risk? It seems like it's a downside unless you have failover to other services
- Martin May
Do we really want our phones making decisions for us? No matter how much context they have...
- Cliff Gerrish
Thanks for adding San Antonio, @dens!
- Robert J Taylor
Cliff - they are making suggestions, not decisions.
- Rob La Gesse
A better frame might be, here are the place gestures your social graph has generated. Does that suggest anything to you...
- Cliff Gerrish
that's super smart :)
- Antonella Stellacci
Have any houses been broken into based on negative location information?
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff: I heard of one, because of a Facebook post (or it was just a bad coincidence). But I've also heard of thieves getting caught because of Google Latitude.
- Robert Scoble
As long as thieves are also on foursquare and check in as they are robbing your place -- I guess that's ok...
- Cliff Gerrish
No 4square in Reno yet. So there must be a population threshold for cities covered at this point?
- ursi
Cliff: if someone tries breaking into my house while I'm not here they might be a little shocked. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Homeless people will "check in" the easy mark homes for their roaming buddies...
- Robert J Taylor
Aren't explicit place gestures fictional? That's their important social information content...
- Cliff Gerrish
I'd love to be able to check in on the Gillmor Gang.
- Robert Scoble
Sounds a lot like MS Mesh...
- Cliff Gerrish
Right...but the tough part is "verifying" that a person is actually at a certain place. You can make it difficult to spoof, though.
- Martin May
We're working on some interesting stuff with QR codes to do that.
- Martin May
Identity becomes a real key here.
- Cliff Gerrish
Good thoughts...totally agree with @dens
- Martin May
Steve - I like the new "studio cam" view
- Rob La Gesse
Do we run into the Facebook Beacon problem here?
- Cliff Gerrish
Steve - I like the studio cam view, too: http://img.skitch.com/2009101... (color me green for jealousy!)
- Robert J Taylor
yes, i also liked the cam angle: http://twitpic.com/lnkdg ..... great show Steve & guests!
- HansVanRock
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Susan Beebe, Michael Pinto, Ankush Narula and 11 other people liked this
I hear Phil Windley and Craig Burton are going to be on today's Gillmor Gang.
- Cliff Gerrish
Sounds like a great show!
- Rob La Gesse
Hi Steve
- Keith Teare
i've been missing the live action but the transcript from the last show was a fun read
- Brian Hendrickson
"[Google] Wave is saying, okay, our structure model is (unintelligible) " lol @kevinmarks http://bh.ly/0w
- Brian Hendrickson
@Scobleizer - got a Wave invite for me?
- Keith Teare
i want a wave invite...she whined.
- Karoli
Does whinining work?
- Cliff Gerrish
guess we're going to find out. LOL
- Karoli
So the discussion is SideWiki, not Wave -- Google still the topic.
- Cliff Gerrish
SideWiki is a blogging tool.
- Kevin Marks
wonder when SideWiki will come to my chrome. want it.
- Christopher Harris
I was just about to say that. SideWiki. . .
- Ron Hudson
Although, it's not really a wiki.
- Cliff Gerrish
dont believe the hype ;)
- sull
Seems like SideWiki, Echo and Disqus all do something similar.
- Cliff Gerrish
The web will become like Wings of Desire - We will all be able to listen to everyone's mind.
- Arnie Klaus
Just wrote a Sidewiki entry on "Category Archives: Real-time" http://bit.ly/12HDF
- Ron Hudson
We are thinking about you!
- Arnie Klaus
Amorphous
- Arnie Klaus
you guys should call up Leo Laporte and bring him into this conversation
- Brian Hendrickson
I don't even understand the concept of chat gathered around the Gillmor Gang any more. Do they mean the comments on this post?
- Matt Terenzio
Tina says KEVIN NEEDS TO SLOW DOWN!
- Cliff Gerrish
invisible backchannels
- Kevin Marks
Okay.
- Matt Terenzio
sorry wasn't making fun of you kevin!
- Brian Hendrickson
The difference between Sidewiki and Echo and Disqus is that Disqus and Echo give control over what get displayed to blog owner.
- Robert Scoble
I wrote a side wiki for the /realtime page. There is no way to edit it?
- Ron Hudson
But Sidewiki isn't something you add to your blog, it's just a portal that a small subset of users use to look at it
- Brian Hendrickson
I'd like to see SideWiki allow WebHooks, so when you submit a post it can also update another service ... Kind of like Posterous
- Ideas At Random
Control is an illusion.
- Cliff Gerrish
Echo and Disqus can bring the sidewiki feed back into it
- Kevin Marks
I's not controlling conversation I object to just reaching across a network and changing the way my content is displayed. I have no objections to a client side mashup or even a peer to peer
- Matt Terenzio
You do have control over what you write. You don't have control over what OTHER PEOPLE write.
- Ken Sheppardson
SideWiki is MOST dangerous because it isn't RSS-enabled, and there's no way to properly monitor it.
- Ike Pigott
SideWiki has a feed for every page and for every user, wrong Ike
- Kevin Marks
Y'all realize Diigo has been doing this same thing for a couple years now, right? Folks just haven't objected because they don't know about it. There will *always* be side converasations you don't know about that you can't control.
- Ken Sheppardson
framing is wrong. I format my content to browser size (just devil's advocate, I don't do that)
- Matt Terenzio
Kevin, I have yet to see the feed.
- Ike Pigott
It's not "framing", it's a browser add-in. Only those who've chosen to install the "app" see it.
- Ken Sheppardson
Scoble seems to advocate ignorance as a blissful state.
- Cliff Gerrish
Nice nodes, Robert
- Ross Mayfield
what do you want a feed for, Ike? Which page?
- Kevin Marks
Gillmor suggests by his actions just now that there needs to be a judge(ment). Where is the referee.
- Arnie Klaus
You could build a similar service that displays the comments from FriendFeed related to a specific page in the sidebar. IT's the same API http://ffcheck.com uses. Would you object to that, Robert?
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd be interesting if SideWiki was a wiki
- Ross Mayfield
why would that make you interesting?
- Brian Hendrickson
as long as they don't change the display of my content, I think it's fine.
- Matt Terenzio
SideWiki is really more of a palimpsest.
- Cliff Gerrish
What is the difference between sidewiki and just twittering with a #scobleizer tag?
- Ron Hudson
I am choosing to go to site A and I am choosing to install sidewiki. Why should site A control what I see there?
- Ryan
You still have control over that frame, Robert. You don't (i.e. shouldn't) have control over my sidebar.
- Ken Sheppardson
I'm stuck on bandaid.
- Jay Cuthrell
cuz bandaid's stuck on me
- Jay Cuthrell
Yeah, Ken you are right
- Matt Terenzio
Robert - remember when I closed my FriendFeed account and you argued that I deleted YOUR comments stream?
- Rob La Gesse
Nobody's modifying what you're trying to display. There's a supplemental app that's displaying additional information about your page, Robert. And you have nothing to say about it, nor should you.
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert's totally right. Rock on
- Stephen Pickering
Ken, bullshit
- Stephen Pickering
You'll have to make a logical argument, Stephen. Epithets don't work.
- Ken Sheppardson
It's his page
- Stephen Pickering
It's my browser and desktop.
- Ken Sheppardson
That was MY post that the comments were attached to. I deleted that linkage - which affected you, and you were pissed :)
- Rob La Gesse
It's defacing his page
- Stephen Pickering
Kevin, I just tried plugging URLs into that API, and it doesn't pull.
- Ike Pigott
He delivered his page to my browser the way he wanted, once on my browser I can do anything to it
- Ryan
you need to escape the :// stuff
- Kevin Marks
Google Toolbar = evil :)
- Rob La Gesse
Aren't all audiences shared, and the audience owns itself?
- Ross Mayfield
You already do anything you want with pages in your browser.
- Cliff Gerrish
But ken if a plugin said, here Google take this page I want and add all the extra metadata to it and return it to me. That is wrong. It's different than a local client gathering content and displaying the way the enduser wants. technicality, but that is law. and I'm no lawyer
- Matt Terenzio
sidewiki isn't part of anybody's blog. it is an abstraction layer that becomes visible when a sidewiki user visits the blog
- Keith Teare
Do I have the "right" to install ad-blocking plugins? Do I have the "right' to install Greasemonkey or Stylish to change fonts and background colors?
- Ken Sheppardson
I did escape it: http://www.google.com/sidewik...
- Ike Pigott
Robert is trying to say sidewiki is like yelp gluing reviews to restaurant doors.
- Ron Hudson
Sidewiki is defacement
- Stephen Pickering
Who needs Sidewiki?
- Jonathan Brown
Yeah, why do all these geeks even have Google toolbar, anyway?
- Matt Terenzio
no, you need the full URL with trailing slashes and everything
- Kevin Marks
No one
- Stephen Pickering
Spamwiki?
- Arnie Klaus
actually, Robert's password IS his phone number :)
- Robert J Taylor
But *I* as the reader, am the one making the choice to "deface" the page. It's not as if every visitor is being forced to read those comments. It's MY CHOICE to see them.
- Ken Sheppardson
I did that too, Kevin. It didn't resolve, didn't pull in the very comment I left.
- Ike Pigott
100% correct Ken
- Ryan
SideWike is Google stepping in the same pile of dogshit that others have stepped in before.
- Rob La Gesse
Imagine if Yelp went around gluing reviews to restaurant windows! Absurd!
- Ron Hudson
There's money in blogs?
- Jay Cuthrell
How about Instapaper, which bookmarks your page and reformats it for mobile browsing. Is that "allowed"?
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken that would be fine if you were the only one who could read your defacement or see it
- Stephen Pickering
I feel VERY sorry for the first company to get hammered in SideWiki during crisis communications.
- Ike Pigott
Your defacing it and the public can see it
- Stephen Pickering
Robert we are with you.
- Ron Hudson
btw, I'm using Sidewiki on this FriendFeed page
- Ross Mayfield
Ike, they will be hammered somewhere else anyway
- Kevin Marks
No you are not Stephen, if someone doesn't have sidewiki installed they can't see it
- Ryan
No, it's not the "public", it's all those users who've made the choice to view a conversation in a sidebar related to your page.
- Ken Sheppardson
Not defacing the site - but MOVING the conversation - which affects branding, value, etc
- Rob La Gesse
so its not defacement for all
- Ryan
But if they do have sidewiki they do
- Stephen Pickering
So you don't ever talk about blog posts or web pages on FriendFeed then, right, Stephen?
- Ken Sheppardson
then they choose to see that content, it wasn't forced on them
- Ryan
OK, at the count of three, everyone uninstall Google Toolbar. Then they will just build it into Firefox. And BECOME MS
- Rob La Gesse
Kevin, you're right -- but THOSE posts and comments will be more easily sortable, findable, and addressable. SideWiki is way too chaotic. And since all the SideWiki comments live on GOOGLE domain, they will show up in search eventually!
- Ike Pigott
Ken, hell yes, I do, but that's on FriendFeed and not on somebody's site
- Stephen Pickering
"we had no choice" is the critical aspect that isn't being addressed by wider audiences
- Jay Cuthrell
If I told you that I was using the FriendFeed API to retrieve and display all conversations related to the page I'm visiting in my sidebar, would you object to that, Stephen? See http://ffcheck.com
- Ken Sheppardson
yes Ken, but just because you ask me, I can't legally send a copy of something to you. Not saying they do this here, but I bet they want to soon if they mix it with search data and deliver ads, for example
- Matt Terenzio
They don't all live on Google's domain - that was my point about http://oneforty.com where SideWiki shows the TechCrunch RWW et al posts
- Kevin Marks
people who publish web pages need to host a more friendfeed-like discussion experience if they want to counter the sidewiki effect
- Brian Hendrickson
Steve - that IS an economically feasible plan
- Rob La Gesse
I just made a comment on this chat using side wiki http://bit.ly/V8TWq but I don't see anyone else's
- Ron Hudson
Ron - what I said
- Brian Hendrickson
Quoting @GinaTrapani: "Prediction: Google Sidewiki will go the way of Google Knol (ie, you'll never hear about it again)"
- Mike Doeff
SideWiki is poised to become Yahoo message boards or YouTube comments
- Robert J Taylor
SideWiki is so Cuil.
- Ike Pigott
Good. There will be a hell of a push back if it does take off
- Stephen Pickering
This whole industry that attempts to monetize content by framing it in a particular context, i.e. wrapped by ads, is sorta doomed, IMHO. In the long run.
- Ken Sheppardson
Brian I don't see your posts. just mine
- Ron Hudson
Yeah, so what's next, Ken, Google will put its own ads on my site?
- Stephen Pickering
No. I'm saying ads are dead.
- Ken Sheppardson
I posted a direct link to a Sidewiki comment I added here.
- Ike Pigott
please move on.
- sull
Ike - when I clicked the link then I saw your link, but not mine or anyone else's
- Ron Hudson
everything is a "backchannel"
- sull
Ron, I refreshed the page, and no one else's SideWiki entries are displayed.
- Ike Pigott
Don't backchannel me bro!
- Robert Scoble
Which URL did you use, Ike? I think there are number of different URLs/views.
- Ken Sheppardson
Scoble uses the backchannel to request we not backchannel him.
- Cliff Gerrish
Life is a backchannel.
- Ken Sheppardson
I have no idea what that means.
- Ken Sheppardson
"Don't backchannel me bro!" tshirts would sell well I bet.
- Jay Cuthrell
"Don't backchannel me bro! - Robert Scoble" - heh
- Rob La Gesse
pretty soon we won't know what is true and who said it! we are doomed!
- Matt Terenzio
What about DotSpots? Introduced at least year's TC 50 and finally launched a few weeks ago... http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- Mike Doeff
I have to take several ibuprofen every day for my backchannel problem.
- Jerry Schuman
Ken, find me the feed for this link: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_b...
- Ike Pigott
SideWiki turns blogs into Fox News
- Rob La Gesse
Mike -- DotSpots is the same issue as well. Very good catch.
- Jay Cuthrell
So, what does SideWiki with Wikipedia mean?
- Robert J Taylor
Sidewiki is the new standard for comments on all websites. Just install a Wordpress plugin for bringing Sidewiki entries into your blog comments.
- Charbax
I see yours now Ike, I commented on a different url. SideWiki #fail
- Ron Hudson
No Rob... SideWiki turns blogs into subway cars, in a town that sells permanent infrared spraypaint.
- Ike Pigott
All systems need calibration or the noise takes over.
- Arnie Klaus
ooooookay
- Jay Cuthrell
we know that, but is it legal?
- Matt Terenzio
Ike - nice
- Rob La Gesse
"You're so 10 mins ago" <- this is Real Time, after all :)
- Robert J Taylor
knew VRM would make it in here!
- Matt Terenzio
Sidewiki will never take off and even if it does, there will be so much push back just like the digg framer that they will discontinue it
- Stephen Pickering
Jay, yeah DotSpots raises the same issues but nobody is talking about them because they're relatively unknown (unlike Google)
- Mike Doeff
I hope Google puts SideWiki in Firefox. That will be the start of the anti-trust investigation
- Rob La Gesse
Sidewiki or something like it will absolutely take off, you just won't know about it.
- Ken Sheppardson
I see the other comments now
- Ron Hudson
Can't we sell in the sidewiki?
- Arnie Klaus
My browser is not your place of business, Robert.
- Ken Sheppardson
plugin functionality is quickly being surpassed by things like Comet/AJAX, so what's next.. who can write AJAX?
- Jerry Schuman
but my site is my place of business (so to speak)
- Robert J Taylor
Your browser isn't but when you can use it to deface his website, it is his place of business
- Stephen Pickering
Jeez... we're going in circles yet again..
- Ken Sheppardson
Google isn't as well known as we'd like to think. Sidewiki should be enabled on every news article ever created. Every news article should have a Wikipedia stub. If Google assists, fine... but I'd rather see the overlay be outside control of any one company.
- Jay Cuthrell
Friendfeed can easily bring sidewiki entries inside friendfeeds feeds
- Charbax
I wish that death spiral would accelerate.
- Jerry Schuman
I'm drawing a moustache on Robert Scoble right now.
- Cliff Gerrish
This is about as useful as wave. I'm out.
- Ron Hudson
Charbax: And FriendFeed in a sidebar can essentialy replace Sidewiki
- Ken Sheppardson
There will be so much push back on this you won't believe it. This will be taken to court and Google ruled against
- Stephen Pickering
What nonsense that guy just said
- Stephen Pickering
I just pushed SideWiki into my Friendfeed, and my Friendfeed spools into my SideWiki profile, and it hasn't caused me any probl
- Ike Pigott
Transient logic... next big push.. data push first.. logic push next.
- Jerry Schuman
it is a document that is being passed across the web, despite how complicated the creation and distribution is. ultimately it is html and javascript
- Matt Terenzio
Sidewiki needs to bring in Google Reader comments related to the "post"/page it's displaying. That'd be slick.
- Ken Sheppardson
the document comes from a location, or multiple locations
- Matt Terenzio
Sidewiki already brings in relevant related blog posts from blogsearch/google news
- Charbax
Isn't the location metaphor broken, just like the silo metaphor.
- Cliff Gerrish
we're resurrecting "compound document" architectures ala OpenDoc
- Jerry Schuman
Right. Firefox? What?
- Jay Cuthrell
I think anyone disclosing that would be subject to whisteblower status.
- Jay Cuthrell
Someone has to host all the web's comments, I'd rather it be Google than Facebook.
- Charbax
Charbax - I would prefer it is distributed
- Rob La Gesse
maybe microsoft is the new microsoft and google is slightly changed google
- Matt Terenzio
Okay... I'm out. (please allow me to continue with my fantasy that anyone noticed I was in)
- Ike Pigott
Bye Ike.
- Cliff Gerrish
Do we truly care who hammed a nail? Or do we mostly care that the nail was hammered properly? (pertaining to "identity")
- Jay Cuthrell
I'd prefer that comments be distributed, and when you view an "entry" or some chunk of content, all the associated, linked comments on and items related to that item can be pulled from wherever they live and displayed for me, subject to filtering I define.
- Ken Sheppardson
You can just load the comments from Google's Sidewiki server by simply copying from the RSS feeds.
- Charbax
we don't want nails, just weak glue
- Matt Terenzio
"please show your comment card"
- Jay Cuthrell
Webmasters should not be able to filter comments. That's the whole point. Power to the people, not the current establishment of the web
- Charbax
NASCAR?
- Jay Cuthrell
I love the fact that if you run Kevin's twitter id through a twitter sentiment tool he's categorized as "post-graduate" ;-)
- Jerry Schuman
that was google worthy :)
- Jay Cuthrell
The NASCAR problem is the zillions of identity logins available on sites supporting openid.
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff - yeah that was the first google hit :)
- Jay Cuthrell
Hey Ken, are you coming to IIW?
- Cliff Gerrish
I wonder how NASCAR feels about that? ;-) I didn't get that as a top hit relating to mechanical engineering or marketing elements related to car racing.
- Jay Cuthrell
I might... I should.... Nov 3-5 at the Comp History Museum?
- Ken Sheppardson
Amazing. http://www.google.com/search...
- Jay Cuthrell
Can you /sidewiki/ sidewiki?
- Jay Cuthrell
Damn you Steve!
- Rob La Gesse
Ownership of content is dead.
- Ken Sheppardson
Yes, Ken. I'll be at IIW.
- Cliff Gerrish
This event was Tricasted thanks to NewTek!
- Rob La Gesse
Could you check the audio sync before posting this on Youtube? all the other Gillmor Gang Youtube videos seem to be out of sync
- Charbax
Good show.
- Mike Doeff
This show was TriCasted :) ... like that
- Robert J Taylor
i'll have to pick it up on the rerun. deadlines and doctor's appointments intervened.
- Karoli
Charbax google is working on fixing
- Steve Gillmor
Google/YouTube is looking in to the sound sync problem. It's happend on a number of other videos too.
- Cliff Gerrish
Is there an rss feed to download the videos from YouTube yet?
- Christian Burns
from iPhone
Christian: You can be notified of a new upload via this RSS feed: http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds...
- Jack
Really interesting show.
- Amyloo
Still listening to the show, but one idea that doesn't seem to have been brought up on the sidewiki debate is the fact that I can create a custom CSS template for a page (Scobleizer.com for example) and even further change and/or modify a website's appearance and look. What happens when Google creates a proverbial "sideCSS" widget to allow everyone easy access to modify the look of...
more...
- Chris Aldrich
Doesn't RSS already strip all the formatting from a website in order to transport one level of value?
- Cliff Gerrish
Not every site has RSS. haven't you heard it's dead?
- Matt Terenzio
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Christian Hollingsworth, Haris bin Ali, Nicholas James and 25 other people liked this
Nice. I'm home this afternoon and get to see it live for the first time.
- Amyloo
ditto. no sound either.
- Christopher Harris
We're getting there
- Brett Slatkin
The test pattern looks good so far.
- Matt Mastracci
We are starting shortly.
- Robert Scoble
whoooo! shortly!
- Christopher Harris
Please stand by...
- Robert Scoble
It's on
- Matt Mastracci
Cool
- Ken Sheppardson
Rackspace is wasting their money, they could reach 175000 geeks by advertising on TWiT
- Mark
first time i'm seeing the new video :)
- Christopher Harris
Mark: who said we won't do that too?
- Robert Scoble
Alright... need to pull up Dave's Twitter stream in another window...
- Ken Sheppardson
look at that chizzled jaw, lucky guy
- Mark
dave winer?
- Christopher Harris
Considering we're watching video sucked over Skype and rebroadcast over ustream, the quality is pretty good.
- Matt Mastracci
"Fast RSS." I liek that generic term. Harkens to fast zombies.
- Amyloo
Fast feeds - like fast food? Will there be a Slow Feeds movement?
- Kevin Marks
Polling sucks.
- Bob Wyman
Bob: can you explain why you think that?
- Robert Scoble
And how that fits into this conversation?
- Robert Scoble
Knowing "what's new" is pretty important - as important as "something is new".
- Matt Mastracci
Scoble: It's inefficient.
- Eric Florenzano
Aha I'm awake in time for the gillmor gang.
- Hilary Talbot
polling wastes resources on both sides of the connection for the majority of the time when there are no new items
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Hey Hil.
- Amyloo
hey Amy :)
- Hilary Talbot
Scoble: Think of the browser. V1 of friendfeed was polling. You had to ask (by refreshing) whether there was new content. This version of friendfeed is push, where FriendFeed tells you when there's new stuff.
- Eric Florenzano
bear: right, so is Pubsubhubbub doing it right or wrong? And, is there a better way?
- Robert Scoble
the key part is that it's sending the content along with the item - this dramatically reduces client complexity
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
By "server", he means "hub", re: doing more work. The blogs do as much work as they do today (ie: ping the hub).
- Matt Mastracci
Hubbub is doing it right IMO
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Scoble: Just remember everything I said to you 5 or 6 years ago when explaining why PubSub was useful and why "one-day" people would realize that real-time would be good. Nothing has changed.
- Bob Wyman
Bob: yup, I'm slow. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert: You need to get more "real-time"!
- Bob Wyman
Right - this is the HTTP/HTML version of what PubSub has been doing for XMPP
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Absolutely. No question. Yes.
- Bob Wyman
Yeah. It could do twitter.
- Matt Mastracci
correction - I'm not the CTO - I don't think Johann would like me taking his job :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Oh, sorry.
- Robert Scoble
Is it possible Bill Gates had it right, Business at the speed of Thought? We want content and information as we think it.
- Owen Greaves
I get confused. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Someone ask Recordon if they've figured out how all this can relate to activitystrea.ms, the streams protocol Facebook, MySpace, and others support
- Jesse Stay
no worries :) I like the promotion
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
which is Atom based
- Jesse Stay
You'd have a hard time doing twitter over rssCloud - you'd have to be pulling the last 30 twitter messages after each tweet. That's 30x the traffic.
- Matt Mastracci
If you were designing this sort of system from scratch today, I can't imagine that you'd take a polling approach. It's legacy left over from page-based web browsing.
- Ken Sheppardson
This is a great fit for activitystrea.ms
- Kevin Marks
Kevin, that's what I was thinking - both being Atom, they ought to fit together well. I'd love to see a use-case in action.
- Jesse Stay
Yeah, activitystrea.ms works easily with Atom which can then be made real time using PSHB.
- David Recordon
robert - easily - Seesmic ran in the cloud until we finally needed more memory for the Java side
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
polling is useful as a fallback and to pull history when subscribing for the first time.
- Kevin Marks
Can we all just agree on "Hubbub" vs "PuSH" or saying "pubsubhubbub" every time... once and for all? :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd love to see Brett's opinion on why Twitter won't implement PSHB
- Jesse Stay
It requires a big player just to have the operations staff to maintain a high volume site
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse: I was just about to ask that.
- Robert Scoble
Tornado uses epoll and it's been used by Twisted Python
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
but if it's distributed - it would scale out anyway
- Ankush Narula
Kqueue too :) (Well, Twisted does support that, Tornado doesn't yet)
- Eric Florenzano
Twitter won't implement it because they want to be the hub, and they want everybody to use their own, proprietary APIS
- Ken Sheppardson
Ankush - correct - until you get "scobled" (i.e. when you have one user with a huge number of followers)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Mike: and wait until you get onto Oprah! :-)
- Robert Scoble
Sounds like DNS
- Rob La Gesse
Ken, I understand the Hub part, but I can't help wonder if they just don't understand how it could help their API. They could use their own hub if they wanted.
- Jesse Stay
Are Hubbub and rssCloud the same thing? (...he asks, feigning innocence)
- Ken Sheppardson
The PSHB protocol is "simple" and fairly trivial implementations are possible. But, *any* single hub that monitors millions of feeds is going to need care and feeding. There will be *very large* hubs and their will be tiny hubs and they can all work together happily.
- Bob Wyman
I'd love to know if Brett or Brad have reached out to Twitter in any way
- Jesse Stay
Ken: no. Similar efforts but come from different histories. RSSCloud comes from Dave Winer's side of the house.
- Robert Scoble
robert - oh hell no - that's what Loic is good at
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
the distinction is that PubSubHubbub sends the fat pings with content in; rssCloud sends an update notification and still needs a poll
- Kevin Marks
Mike: actually Loic has someone speaking at LeWeb that has a bigger global brand than Oprah.
- Robert Scoble
robert - yea, I haven't found out who yet - i'm curioius about that
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
It's Dr. Laura isn't it Robert?
- Jesse Stay
what happens if a hub dies?
- Ankush Narula
Jesse: way bigger than that.
- Robert Scoble
Yeah, Twitter wants other people to adopt their streaming API, if anything... they don't want to be yet another hub in some network
- Ken Sheppardson
rssCloud causes "thundering herd" problem on source blogs. The result can be a complete swamping of smaller publishers. This was the core "mistake" in rssCloud when it was first done 7 years ago and it remains the core error in that protocol.
- Bob Wyman
How about working with the OMB guys? Why PSHB vs. OMB protocol?
- Jesse Stay
yea, Twitter got burned with XMPP early in their engineering life so have a bad taste for it - they got burned not because of XMPP but because of other non-tech reasons
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Jesse - IMO OMB should allow for atom payloads - then it could become part of PSHB by default
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
OMB could generate activitystrea.ms + PSHB too
- Kevin Marks
Thundering herd would be a *huge* problem if Twitter were to get decentralized. Oprah has 1MM+ followers - that's 20 tweets * 1k * 1MM subscribers on each tweet.
- Matt Mastracci
Celine Dion probably has a bigger brand than Opera, and she speaks French (ADD kicking in here)
- Jesse Stay
Bear, interesting
- Jesse Stay
Bear: The issue wasn't XMPP the protocol, it was the software they used to implement it, the systems they built to feed it, the way they configured it, etc... XMPP isn't, a priori, any worse than the alternatives.
- Bob Wyman
OMB made a big mistake when they created their own protocol instead of just extending ATOM, IMO
- Eric Florenzano
Bob, yes - you said it much better than I did - I was trying to say just that
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
There was also the on again/off again relationship Twitter had with Gnip that confused the whole XMPP situation
- Ken Sheppardson
Yeah, I don't really see what OMB gets you these days given activitystrea.ms, Hubbub, etc. Seems redundant.
- Ken Sheppardson
We have an interesting interview with Gnip's founder on Building43 right now, by the way.
- Robert Scoble
@Matt: Right. with rssCloud, publishing becomes massively expensive if you get popular. rssCloud will, on the other hand, work well for people who aren't very popular and don't have many people interested in what they publish. For those folk, rssCloud is a potential solution... :-)
- Bob Wyman
Gnip link: http://www.building43.com/videos...
- Rob La Gesse
oh cool - Gnip has some very cool tech behind the scenes - i'll have to queue that video
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Ken - now that identi.ca/status.net has plugins - nothing prevents someone from wiring up a PHSB hook to the internal message queue for identi.ca/status.net
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
bear: You know if anybody's pushing activitystrea.ms out of a Laconica instance yet?
- Ken Sheppardson
I imagine that hooking up the twitter firehose to PSHB would be really easy and cheap, but it would likely violate the twitter firehose license.
- Matt Mastracci
kevin - yea, one of the most fun projects I did was to hook a sms/xmpp bot to a phone switch - it allowed you to control your vm/phone from xmpp and gave a lot of benefit
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
EVERYTHING cool violates the Twitter firehose rules :)
- Rob La Gesse
ken - there is some private branch work being done on that - but they are working on getting 0.9 out the door first
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@bear great - we should get you hooked up to the Ribbit APIs for telephony stuff and Seesmic
- Kevin Marks
Rob: FriendFeed figured out a way around the stupid Twitter rules.
- Robert Scoble
I think just knowing that Twitter offers a firehose violates it's terms of use.
- Ken Sheppardson
@kevin i would love to review them and make a pitch to the team about them
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert - FF didn't try to share the firehose.
- Rob La Gesse
$50M for FF engineering and architecture team?
- Ankush Narula
@bear great, email me kevinmarks@gmail.com
- Kevin Marks
..and FF was able to position themselves as a Twitter client, in a sense, by pushing traffic to Twitter. They weren't just extracting value from the system. Plus, they probably asked nicely and sent cupcakes.
- Ken Sheppardson
Rob: sure it did, but it only shares it for people who have logged into FriendFeed.
- Robert Scoble
Rob: Twitter's rules are "don't create a shadow Twitter." As long as you don't try to do that they probably will let you play.
- Robert Scoble
Rob: of course every geek in the world wants to create a shadow Twitter. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Rob - once they produced the v2 api - then they started sharing the full stream. Until that point it was a partial stream
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert - my point is - at the same time Twitter couldn't support more use of the firehose, they demanded the firehose NOT be re-broadcast. They don;t allow one to become a "node" of the stream. Which seems silly.
- Rob La Gesse
That's not entirely correct, Robert. Their other rule is "don't try to monetize something firehose based that we may at some point in the indefinite future think about monetizing ourselves"
- Ken Sheppardson
On PubSubHubbub and rssCloud ... (http://brad.livejournal.com/2405147...)
- David Recordon
Ken: we're saying the same thing. :-)
- Robert Scoble
decentralization!!!
- Ankush Narula
Rob: FriendFeed rebroadcasts the Twitter firehose, but only for the people who have signed onto FriendFeed.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Ah... right... "shadow Twitter". Gotcha :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert/Ken - I can understand why Twitter doesn't want downstream nodes passing on the stream - they lose access control
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert - they are not. They are broadcasting back a VERY small portion of that stream, at best.
- Rob La Gesse
I think technically rebroadcasting is illegal according to the Twitter developer terms for the firehose
- Jesse Stay
Mike me too! Rob: it is a small portion because only a few hundred thousand people have signed onto FriendFeed, but if you could get everyone on Twitter to sign up here you'd see the entire firehose.
- Robert Scoble
In so far as fire-walled end-user applications can't receive pings, PSHB protocol mainly helps publishers and server-side aggregators like Google reader. Since this "last mile problem" is out-of-scope for PSHB, we can't yet expect any client explosion the likes that Twitter has seen. Any thoughts from the panel on the last mile problem? What would have to be done so that Tweetie, Seesmic, etc, might benefit from PSHB?
- Mason Lee
Robert - I disagree. I think if that happened the hose would be shut off.
- Rob La Gesse
The protocol comparison document is at: http://code.google.com/p...
- Bob Wyman
Well, I don't think it's just rebroadcasting... there's also an issue around derivative/aggregations based on the firehose, firehose-based analytics, etc
- Ken Sheppardson
Why isn't Twitter ever a part of these conversations? I'd love to hear their viewpoint. You should get Ryan Sarver on one of these episodes.
- Jesse Stay
I believe they have an open invite :)
- Rob La Gesse
real time chat across different media and internet access levels - you pick what size/speed your want your conversation to happen at
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
The last time I saw Twitter participate in this sort of conversation was at BearHugCamp last fall.... and I suspect that left a bad taste in their mouth :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
I'm curious if anyone invited them
- Jesse Stay
But you can't do global Track across a federated system
- Ken Sheppardson
But Kevin, what about tracking the firehose?
- Cliff Gerrish
*somebody* needs to aggregate everything if you want to search across everything
- Ken Sheppardson
*drink* someone mentioned Track
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Mason If PSHB handles the backbone problem of providing fan-in and then fan-out for millions of feeds, it makes it massively easier for people to focus on building innovative front ends. There isn't much opportunity for creativity in solving the backend problem -- that's why it is reasonable to build something like PSHB today. The really fun problems are the things that should be relying on PSHB as a source of feeds. Let PSHB do the boring backend problem -- you should focus on innovative clients.
- Bob Wyman
drink
- Rob La Gesse
or you need to delegate/distribute searches out to the hubs
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: that's a good point.
- Robert Scoble
I need a drink!
- Robert Scoble
Robert - grab some formula!
- Rob La Gesse
But, "follow" isn't enough. We also need TRACK!
- Bob Wyman
Or that other kind of milk.
- Amyloo
There are certainly benefits to distribution and redundancy, but there *are* benefits to centralization.
- Ken Sheppardson
Kevin has the key point, getting what you want... Discovery of what you want would be next... these hubs will be learning patterns of what is wanted.
- Ben Hedrington
Or will it be too decentralized?
- Ben Hedrington
Discovery on a federated/partitioned system is problematic.
- Ken Sheppardson
but PSHB isn't for track, as you have said eloquently on the mailing list, Bob
- Kevin Marks
live filtering?
- Ankush Narula
So discovery is the next frontier?
- Ben Hedrington
track remains a problem even with PSHB *but* using PSHB allows you to do a track across more than just one source
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Robert: chat room other than here?
- David Stratton
discovery happens the same way you discover new blogs IMO
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Kevin: But, if I've got PSHB aggregating the feeds, it makes it really, really easy for me to build a server that *does* do track on the stuff that PSHB feeds to me.
- Bob Wyman
Discovery has always been the new frontier
- Francine Hardaway
David: this is the chat room.
- Robert Scoble
Hubbub allows some central search provider subscribe to everything, then people can subscribe to the search provider... but there just has to be some way to discover/broadcast which feeds are out there... this is an issue with SUP, btw... discovery. You have to know a feed's SUP ID first.
- Ken Sheppardson
okay, thought so
- David Stratton
I guess I wasn't being 2010 enough. This is the chat feed. :-)
- Robert Scoble
So you mean if you want to do research or market research you will pay
- Francine Hardaway
@bobwyman sure, but that isn't the usecase Robert says he wants; he needs a mass crawl for that
- Kevin Marks
Francine: and restaurants will pay $10 a month to have their own Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
I remember the Microsoft guy at BearHugCamp last fall was wondering why anybody would ever want to build a Track system, rather than just leave it to Google...
- Ken Sheppardson
I'm a set of keywords, I'm looking for a set of keywords
- Arnie Klaus
Of course, Twitter will probably offer http://www.sushirestaurant.com/twitter at some point too.
- Robert Scoble
Live regexp for big pipes sounds like a $1Billion dollar business.
- Cliff Gerrish
we've been doing this stuff with MOM in financial market feeds - topic subscriptions, channels, etc.
- Ankush Narula
@kevin, I dont' see the distinction. I can do track based on all that flows through the PSHB hubs. That's semantically equivelant to doing a "mass crawl"
- Bob Wyman
And what will they really do with it? That they don't do now
- Francine Hardaway
You can have one aggregator that controls the entire feed, or you can set the feed loose and let several companies aggregate from those. Same data, no single point of control.
- Rob La Gesse
Francine: I can see a lot you would do if you had your own branded Twitter clone.
- Robert Scoble
Every Hubbub hub could/should provide a local firehose to anyone who wants it.
- Ken Sheppardson
distributed track is possible. Centralization only makes it easier.
- Bob Wyman
Complex events processing...
- Cliff Gerrish
@bobwyman only if all the hubs do collation for you, surely? Content-based filtering inot feeds on the hubs too
- Kevin Marks
Bob: and even centralization isn't THAT easy. Twitter only shows you the last few days on http://search.twitter.com
- Robert Scoble
How similar to JustSignal?
- Francine Hardaway
This is similar to tracking multiple market centers (pools of liquidity) to get the right trade.
- Cliff Gerrish
John Kalucki, a SQLstream co-founder, has been at Twitter for about 18 month now working on... wait for it... their firehose API.
- Ken Sheppardson
Cliff: Now I understand
- Francine Hardaway
the fun happens when PSHB allows for disparate streams to have firehoses - then all the search/filter geeks can do their thing
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Scoble: "history" is irrelevant to any system doing a real-time track. All you care about is the future -- not the past. Past is for "retrospective search," "track" is about "prospective search".
- Bob Wyman
The future: filter, search, discover, curate
- Francine Hardaway
So Twitter is trying to become FriendFeed?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Sure we do. It's called TwitterSpy. Dustin Sallings built it two years ago
- Ken Sheppardson
others have built the same thing...
- Ken Sheppardson
Mike - so is Facebook :)
- Rob La Gesse
Bob: I want both.
- Robert Scoble
@bobwyman disagree - you need both flow and past; they complement one another
- Kevin Marks
bear: I think if you look at some of the newer Twitter web clients, they're basically a FriendFeed-like UI on top of the Twitter message bus.
- Ken Sheppardson
twitter retweet is going to make a lot of folks angry - not that I have any inside info or anything
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
bear: hah!
- Robert Scoble
@Scoble: Of course you want both. I would never question that. The two halves of search compliment each other. Only retrospective or only prospective is only half the solution. Most of the systems you've ever used have only solved half the problem .
- Bob Wyman
bear: Justine Bateman's already mad about it. :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Bob: agreed. FriendFeed came close to solving both.
- Robert Scoble
London here :)
- Bastian
New York here...
- Bob Wyman
hawaii here
- Arnie Klaus
Texas
- Rob La Gesse
Philadelphia
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
NYC
- Ankush Narula
Just got a 503 on Twitter... we breaking it real time?
- Ben Hedrington
Washington State
- Steve Hammer
San Francisco (not Silcon Valley ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
canberra, Aust
- Hilary Talbot
Dana Point, CA here
- michael sean wright
nice thing we started here
- Bastian
Wow - what a nice distribution!
- Rob La Gesse
Ben - no - Twitter's auth API is having trouble right now - my monitoring alerts are going berserk about it
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Minneapolis, MN
- Ben Hedrington
RSS!!
- michael sean wright
Arizona
- Francine Hardaway
awww...RSS :-)
- Jodi Church
RSS, welcome to the world.
- Bob Wyman
RSS lives!
- Mason Lee
Don;t know how Scoble had a cute baby :) I mean, Maryam is cute, but Robert? Hee
- Rob La Gesse
LOL @RSS...
- Karoli
That gives new meaning to RSS stream.
- Steve Hammer
when he farts - do you call it an rssCloud? ;-)
- Ankush Narula
welcome to the intertubes RSS!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@ankush LOL!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Rocky looks so cute petting him
- Francine Hardaway
Ankush, FTW!
- Karoli
Careful - Rocky looks hungry!
- Rob La Gesse
loved the mp3 of the sounds of RSS greeting the world
- michael sean wright
Your saving it all for his great, great grandkids!
- Arnie Klaus
I need to run! :)
- David Recordon
Thanks man ttyl
- Brett Slatkin
lots of spamming yesterday
- Karoli
it was a classic phishing scam
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Good to hear about http://superfeedr.com!
- Julien
2 different things
- Karoli
If you were using SocialToo you wouldn't have gotten those messages :-)
- Jesse Stay
they're able to insert messages into your stream when you don't follow via the Twitter API
- Karoli
PSHB is not really decentralized from the client's perspective-- there will be one front end: google.
- Mason Lee
Diversity is important in *any* ecosystem...
- Bob Wyman
It's funny that I'm getting a fail whale on the Gillmor Gang.
- Robert Scoble
it's the same with your computer network - all the same server means you are pwned by a single attack
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Steve Gillmor needs his Twitter anti-virus (SocialToo) :-)
- Jesse Stay
DNS
- Eric Florenzano
Gmail
- Ken Sheppardson
Commonality in protocols -- diversity in servers.
- Bob Wyman
oh, wait...
- Ken Sheppardson
Twitter is down hard now.
- Robert Scoble
Ok, really need to go now! Thanks and talk to everyone later.
- David Recordon
I'm gettting 503 server error.
- Robert Scoble
everyone gets nervous when we add a layer on top of the web stack...
- Ankush Narula
yea, i'm getting hard errors from Twitter in my server alerts
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Ahh, it's back.
- Robert Scoble
One day Twitter just won't come back.
- Ken Sheppardson
i was, but it's working again for me
- Jodi Church
Yeah - API's having issues too
- Jesse Stay
Still 503 here
- Ken Sheppardson
@ken - then, we will all sleep.
- Rob La Gesse
Ken: Not after it has raise $100m
- Francine Hardaway
Its google wave getting ready to go live.
- Arnie Klaus
it's both
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Annie: Hah!
- Ben Hedrington
The problem comes in ownership of the resource. In the decentralized web, we share the pipes in neutral fashion. But, "commercial" people tend to violate net neutrality rules. Like Twitter deciding who can and cannot read their data. That is a net neutrality failure...
- Bob Wyman
Only portrayed that way by the FSF/GPL extremists
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Love the sound of Skype in the morning
- Bastian
@bear: We should profit by competing on the service we provide users -- not on how much of user's data we have captured.
- Bob Wyman
Bob: and what about Facebook's front door being completely locked?
- Ankush Narula
@bob agree 100%
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Is he saying Dave Winer's naive? :-)
- Jesse Stay
Bob: agree. Jesse: I think so.
- Robert Scoble
He's saying light pinging won't work.
- Cliff Gerrish
*smack*
- Rob La Gesse
@Ankush I'm seriously hoping that the new hires at Facebook help steer them away from the dark side :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
So to argue in Twitter and Facebook's defense, they're not just a neutral pass through. They're adding value to the system, and they'd argue that they shouldn't be "forced" to just let that walk out the back door.
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd like to see Dave Winer's response to that
- Jesse Stay
@ankush , Folk don't always agree with me. But, I believe that users should control access to their data and they should make decisions based on what is in their interest -- the people who run the services that people use should *not* be the ones deciding what access controls will be enforced.
- Bob Wyman
so do you see there being an APi to Google's crawl for use in this, Bob?
- Kevin Marks
Because of stampeding herds?
- Mason Lee
I'm a big +1 on the fat ping
- Eric Florenzano
Jesse: I'm sure you will (see the response)
- Ken Sheppardson
Mike: if Facebook doesn't get its public service act together they will see themselves becoming the next MySpace. In the early adopter audience it already is.
- Robert Scoble
Bob/Mike - i'm in full agreement - but when you're building a service that has zero monetization (twitter) - what else can your valuation be based on other than your core data assets?
- Ankush Narula
I think Facebook is getting it together. Connect is their answer, but they're also slowly opening up search as well.
- Jesse Stay
Of course they have FriendFeed now to keep the early adopters inside the Facebook tent, but there's a lot more early adopters on Twitter than here.
- Robert Scoble
@robert agree completely - I had already zero'd out my profile and moved to FF - but the FF folks moving to FB made me give them more time
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bob/Mike - as for FB - I hope so too
- Ankush Narula
Of course, you are better off doing it on Rackspace :)
- Rob La Gesse
Jesse: I agree with you.
- Robert Scoble
Don't build services that have no legitimate path to profit. In that case, you should be building protocols whose costs can be shared by the community and then build your business by creating the best tools for using the protocol.
- Bob Wyman
popping in to listen to RL Gilmor Gang stream #gillmorgang
- Del_
Bob - Sounds ideal - but knowing the history of Twitter - I suspect they were much more concerned about uptime rather than the public good
- Ankush Narula
robert and rob: speaking of using Rackspace, Cartus put my contract on hold while they figure out their needs
- David Stratton
"Has *2* Bs"?? Doesn't it have, like 12?
- Ken Sheppardson
pub sub hub bub (five bs)
- Robert Scoble
activitystrea.ms is yet another endpoint that can be connected to PSHB
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Ankush I don't know who was thinking what. But, I do know that those who focus on "public good" typically write protocols, not walled garden closed sites.
- Bob Wyman
Sidewiki is so not a wiki
- Ken Sheppardson
I think it's actually "pub/sub hubbub" - I'm usually wrong though
- Jesse Stay
I want Sidewiki to have Wave support
- Jesse Stay
Bob - fair enough :-)
- Ankush Narula
Locking a new "feature" into relying on me installing a toolbar is a GREAT way to make sure I don;t play with it.
- Rob La Gesse
ooh - I hear tension in the realms of Google :-)
- Jesse Stay
you would have to gather a set of wave changesets and then push that out via PSHB
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Rob: I'm sure they'll support it in Chrome too, eventually
- Ken Sheppardson
It's PSHB vs. Wave - who will win? :-)
- Jesse Stay
you guys are nuts :-)
- Loic Le Meur
Wave *IS* XMPP
- Ken Sheppardson
Loic is in the building :)
- Rob La Gesse
Loic it's Celine Dion isn't it? :-) (how's it going?)
- Jesse Stay
nope
- Loic Le Meur
Where's my Wave invitation?
- Francine Hardaway
The Wave protocol is just an extension of XMPP
- Ken Sheppardson
good try though
- Loic Le Meur
PSHB and Wave don't compete. They do different things. Othogonal. PSHB does *nothing* in the last-mile user interface space.
- Bob Wyman
Loic: thanks for filling infor me.
- Robert Scoble
dang - I'm going to figure it out one of these days
- Jesse Stay
Francine: don't worry, I don't have one either.
- Robert Scoble
oh robert, no thank YOU
- Loic Le Meur
XMPP is also nice in that completes the last mile.
- Mason Lee
I had a blast being you for 24 hours
- Loic Le Meur
Seemed like a good conference watching it on my iPhone.
- Robert Scoble
XMPP is great for "last mile" as well as for reasonable number of persistent connections on teh backend.
- Bob Wyman
Great conversation guys!
- Ben Hedrington
I LOVED Tony Robbins, I was expecting to hate him so that was a pleasant surprise, best speaker I have ever seen. Such a stage presence. amazing/
- Loic Le Meur
Great show, everyone
- Rob La Gesse
great show!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Enjoyed listening/watching
- Ankush Narula
Great discussion here. Thanks Brett, et al.
- Mason Lee
That was very good - thanks Steve
- Jesse Stay
thank you
- Hilary Talbot
/me is wondering why everyone thanks everyone
- Loic Le Meur
@Loic It's because we americans are so polite!
- Bob Wyman
Thanks, Loic, I was wondering that myself.
- Mason Lee
Errr... That was a joke.
- Bob Wyman
LOL
- Loic Le Meur
social networking
- Arnie Klaus
don't get me started
- Loic Le Meur
Good show Steve, thank you all for making the time.
- David Stratton
You rang?
- John Kalucki
Hey John! When are you going to be on the Gillmor Gang?
- Jesse Stay
quick - get Steve back on video - Twitter is here!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
John is in charge of Twitter's Streaming API, FYI
- Jesse Stay
I totally didn't realize John had a FriendFeed account - awesome
- Jesse Stay
I skimmed most of the conversation. I didn't see any explicit questions to respond to, or that haven't been addressed on the twitter-dev list about pubhub...
- John Kalucki
have you looked at PubSubHubbub John?
- Kevin Marks
As far as the Streaming API rules, we'll work on them. The user TOS and API rules just went out last week.
- John Kalucki
John - except that a lot of the folks who were asking don't regularly read the twitter dev list :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Let me find the link...
- John Kalucki
Heh :-)
- Jesse Stay
I'd just like to be able to standardize my code and not have to re-write for every new social network out there.
- Jesse Stay
But we've had this conversation. :-)
- Jesse Stay
how about activitystrea.ms support, John? You going to write the shim or do we have to?
- Kevin Marks
Activitystrea.ms support seems unlikely. A shim would probably be seen as syndication.
- John Kalucki
Overall, the direction is towards exposing more data types, more predicate types, and supporting more use cases. Format and protocol support, while making developer's lives easier, isn't as high priority as some of the proposed features we're considering.
- John Kalucki
That's too bad John - hard to be the "pulse of the internet" if you're not supporting open standards
- Jesse Stay
Hey JK! Welcome! How goes?
- Ken Sheppardson
Hey Ken. It goes. It goes.
- John Kalucki
Looks like we still have 27 viewers for a test pattern...
- Cliff Gerrish
I missed this shooooooot! need regular calendared events so i can add you guys to my schedule! :)
- Susan Beebe
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Daniel Rowley, Michael Pinto, earl wallace and 13 other people liked this
If it's Thursday, it must be the Gillmor Gang.
- Cliff Gerrish
Looking forward to it
- Kevin Marks
+1 for MG joining GG
- Mike Doeff
Nice. Welcome MG
- Ken Sheppardson
thanks guys
- MG Siegler
Ditto that.
- Karoli
And in the room at the same time. Crazy ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Glad to have the GG back!
- Colin
yes, good to see you, MG
- Kevin Marks
in black and white even!
- MG Siegler
Maybe Saturday for the baby, Robert? Here's hoping all goes well!
- Robert J Taylor
social media is dead, huh? wonder how he feels about the public option. :D
- Karoli
you should invite @caro on Gillmor Gang, Steve - she'd be great
- Kevin Marks
I wish Facebook allowed multiple accounts on threadly
- earl wallace
a design comment on this page: If the rackspace sponsor icon were above the video screen, the friendfeed discussion would line up with the video better.
- Karoli
thanks Karoli...will look into it
- Tina Chase Gillmor
we lost Scoble...Robert call back in!
- Tina Chase Gillmor
That happens every day. See failwhale
- Ken Sheppardson
Seth has a point.
- Antonella Stellacci
Sorry -went out of channel: @Karoli - working on a new site version/update. I've considered that issue as well. Thanks!
- Rob La Gesse
What a great looking show.
- Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)
What's critical mass these days? How many users have to be using a service for it to be taken seriously?
- Ken Sheppardson
So maybe the next big thing is "None of the Above", i.e. lots of small site that don't necessarily have a large userbase.
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert's back on the line. we're bringing him back up
- Tina Chase Gillmor
User centric vs site/document-centric ala http://www.arcticstartup.com/2009...
- Ken Sheppardson
hi Tina no see long time!
- earl wallace
hello Earl & everyone
- Tina Chase Gillmor
jet overhead!
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Posterous just launched customization. Nice.
- Ken Sheppardson
I agree with MG. Google does'nt seem to get the gist of social media
- earl wallace
Same view, Google isn't moving fast enough.
- Colin
Trying to tweet the show URL and my tweet won't go out..can someone help?
- Tina Chase Gillmor
I want to try threadsy...I think I'll like it
- Tina Chase Gillmor
threadsy wont let me bring in my different private and public Facebook accounts
- earl wallace
going to have to catch this on the rerun...kid issues override all today. Hopefully resolved soon. Thanks, all.
- Karoli
That doesn't mean everybody wants to do that, Robert.
- Ken Sheppardson
talked to women about sharing your location with everyone, robert?
- Kevin Marks
yeah, pretty much everyone i talk to isnt ready for that yet
- MG Siegler
It would be easy for FourSquare to integrate Facebook contacts
- Jesse Stay
eventually it will be the norm, but in no way are people ready for that yet
- MG Siegler
Just a few lines of code - copy and paste mostly
- Jesse Stay
I'll bet you 99.9% of the population of the US doesn't want their location published.
- Ken Sheppardson
1000 followers isn't publishing your GPS location
- Ken Sheppardson
and there has been no location-based incident yet, but sadly we all know it's going to happen
- MG Siegler
they want their location published to some people, not to everyone
- Kevin Marks
No, I'm not, Robert
- Ken Sheppardson
Kevin: You realize all your comments here are going out as tweet? (Just checking)
- Ken Sheppardson
Facebook Connect integration would make that easy - you can import their friend lists, choose to publish to only those friends, etc.
- Jesse Stay
I thought you just said "everyone", Robert
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken- I agree. There are some less than savory characters I want to give the opportunity of finding me
- earl wallace
Lost video/audio
- Ken Sheppardson
wow robert is pissed
- MG Siegler
refreshed page and it cam back
- Robert J Taylor
hold onfolks... something went down
- Tina Chase Gillmor
yep. refreshed here too
- Ken Sheppardson
get back up
- Tina Chase Gillmor
For me, I'll be much more selective about who I share my location with. And I'm not likely to send a friend request for a location-based system to someone who I haven't met and consider a "real life" friend.
- Mike Doeff
works again
- Ken Sheppardson
guys, has scoble been saying we should share our location or something ?
- Mark
The evidence to me that we're on the path to everybody becoming Scoble one day will be the existence of a second person like Scoble :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
geez... weird. Think ustream is messing up
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Tina -is there an audio stream url to listen on VLC?
- earl wallace
No video. :(
- Otto
video down hard again
- Ken Sheppardson
I don't mind having my location known if I am in a public place, but I sure don't want that at home.
- Francine Hardaway
we're still here...show continues but seems like there is a ustream problem
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Trying to watch this is a real chore, and I love you all
- Francine Hardaway
Back up!
- Robert J Taylor
video up!
- earl wallace
It's back up, refresh.
- 321
I share my location via BrightKite to my friends, and I use Navizon on my jailbroke iPhone to update a map on my Facebook page every 10 minutes. Kinda fun.
- Otto
A friend of mine built out a calendar tool for FB: http://wezaggle.com that delegates well
- Kevin Marks
aaaaaand we're back
- Mike Doeff
our audience is SO awesome
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Fire Eagle enables the sharing of location between services quite well.
- Otto
Have to agree with Scoble on the sharing capabilities of things like Foursquare ... not worried about the privacy issue at all
- Robert J Taylor
Fun, Otto, but you really don't want people knowing where you live. I have been stalked and it's scary
- Francine Hardaway
Francine: The only people that can see my location are people I know. I don't friend people on social sites if I don't know them. Facebook especially.
- Otto
I use Foursquare. But once again not in mmy home
- Francine Hardaway
I've had people (on FriendFeed and my blog) threaten me and my family. Since then I'm very careful revealing my location. I want control - I think utilizing Facebook privacy controls is the best way to do this.
- Jesse Stay
BrightKite offers a neat feature to make specific locations more private than others, so you can use it at home, but only your BrightKite Friends can see it (as opposed to the world)
- Otto
Francine, you tweet your location out a lot...I hate the whole idea of letting folks know where I am in real time unless there's some purpose in that notification.
- Karoli
But there's a fundamental difference between something like "track" and geolocation serivces. People don't know what "track" is, but they know what "everybody knows exactly where I am at all times" is.
- Ken Sheppardson
people make @foursquare venues for their homes that don't have addresses on, so they can check in, but only those in the know can find them
- Kevin Marks
yeah i have my place but not my apt number
- MG Siegler
Foursquare is crap. It doesn't work in any city within 400 miles of me. How the hell can a company sustain that sort of thing? They're totally ignoring like 80% of the bloody country.
- Otto
Because you're an outlier, Robert.
- Ken Sheppardson
@Karoli +1 What is the purpose of sharing location, i.e., WIIFM
- Dave Martin
NTTAWWT
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert that would be cool except those with mental illnesses that catch alot of prejudice
- earl wallace
but will we have to arm ourselves?
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Definitely am an outlier. I like sharing my location so people who know me (or want to) can join me. Works well in my home town and in towns I'm visiting.
- Robert J Taylor
Main reason me and friends use BrightKite is to check in at places so that we can meet up without having to trade texts and calls and such. Much nicer than how it was before, having 20 people call to ask what bar we're hanging at
- Otto
Dave, if I were stuck on a country road in the dark and wanted someone to come get me, it would be extremely handy. (that's actually happened to me in the past)
- Karoli
Snarf
- Brant Walker
Hey Steve--How are you monitoring the show's audio w/ out headphones without creating feedback?
- Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)
Tina: good reason to live in Texas...the "Castle Doctrine" applies to home and car. :)
- Robert J Taylor
nice plug
- Tina Chase Gillmor
yeah i've seen a few things like that coming soon also
- MG Siegler
Not to throw a legal question into the mix but at what point do we all become default public figures as a result of our election to disclose personal information? The privacy myth writ large.
- Dave Martin
By the way, was talking to someone who work kids trying to get guns off the streets, and they were explaining that one of the biggest problem they have these days is girlfriends with cellphones.
- Ken Sheppardson
think flashmobs
- Ken Sheppardson
interesting Ken...
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Speaking of visiting... I'll be in LA at 140tc next week. Staying at Hotel Angeleno.
- Robert J Taylor
taking pictures of guys from gang A, msg to boyfriend in gang B, boyfriend says keep him there, we're on the way
- Ken Sheppardson
Big Brother replaced by little sister, Ken?
- Robert J Taylor
Robert T. - I like that hotel
- Tina Chase Gillmor
with latitude you can choose what to share with who (share best location, city level, hide)...
- Antonella Stellacci
@Karoli good point but we would probably agree that you would want to somehow limit those who were made aware that you were alone on a dark road
- Dave Martin
another jet
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Dave, absolutely.
- Karoli
Antonella-Good point which illustrates that foursquare and others should use Goolgle for open standards template
- earl wallace
or not
- Tina Chase Gillmor
IMO, people think too much of themselves. Nobody cares if you like coffee.
- Otto
Yes, location based services have value. Will everyone use them? Probably not. What's next...
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert, as long as you control those "where I am/what I'm doing" location disclosures
- Dave Martin
Your *friends* might care, but those are the only people. And you'd probably want them to know.
- Otto
the interesting thing about @foursquare is that it does encourage you to perform your location
- Kevin Marks
Kevin: Only if you live in one of the towns it supports. Nobody I know uses foursquare.
- Otto
I remember Kevin and myself being in those early conversations. We've only been talking about this stuff for 8 years now.
- Jerry Schuman
the starbucks bot notices you were at peets and asks, why were you being unfaithful to me today at 10:20am
- Dave Martin
Gowalla is neater.
- Otto
Good show guys.
- Mike Doeff
Dave: If that actually occurred, it would be a horrific fail and the backlash would be tremendous. Can you image how many people would get ticked off about starbucks tracking them?
- Otto
Otto: I think that the same thing was said about Twitter - who cares what you're doing, besides some friends? Now we're talking about "where are you"...
- Robert J Taylor
Thanks Steve, Kevin, Seth, MG, Robert, good show
- Dave Martin
thought-provoking show!
- Robert J Taylor
Thanks Steve for the wonderful platform, looking forward to more!
- earl wallace
@otto true, that was the problem with dodgeball too - it is primarily an urban density app as built
- Kevin Marks
Robert: The thing nobody got about Twitter is that "your friends" is enough to make it a useful service.
- Otto
thanks everyone ...great show
- Tina Chase Gillmor
thanks guys
- MG Siegler
Just joking Otto, we agree, there are two issues, having access to the data and application of the data, collection/mining will be the science, application will prove to be the art
- Dave Martin
@Kevin: Yes, foursquare supports 21 cities. But I live in the 19th biggest city in the country, Downtown no less, and foursquare doesn't have it. Lame, lame, lame.
- Otto
yeah crowd-sourcing cities is coming soon. will open it to a lot more
- MG Siegler
I live in the 7th largest city -- no Foursquare love for San Antonio. Always pretends I'm in Austin
- Robert J Taylor
Crowdsourcing should have been in there in the first place. Gowalla has 50-60 locations in my city, and I was only the 3000th user or so. What the hell good is a location based app that doesn't work in almost all locations?
- Otto
I live in the 10th largest City, San Jose, and I have to tell @foursquare it's San Francisco...
- Kevin Marks
Kevin, I had the same problem in Boston. It doesn't work well with suburbia.
- Jesse Stay
San Francisco is a suburb of San Jose. If you go by population.
- Gabe Wachob
One thing is certain, GPS will redefine "local" to mean not DMA, block code or any other crude marketing/census definition but local as EXACTLY where you are in the moment.
- Dave Martin
or san jose is a suburb of SF if you go by white upper middle class cultural associations
- mary
Actually, San Jose is part of the so-called embedded San Francisco metro or DMA/SMSA definition.
- Dave Martin
MP3 here: http://www.archive.org/downloa... When the youtube version is uploaded presumably without the dropouts, I'll rip the audio and put it here: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/bootleg...
- Jack
The real time comments here are interesting but lack much in the depth department. Where do I find the post show comments?
- Jason Adams
Threadsy blows TC50 away
earl wallace, Susan Beebe, Rob La Gesse and 5 other people liked this
TC50 blows threadsy away. It seems like their servers can't handle all the traffic
- arjo
i'm still thinking it over steve.. want to play with it. i suspect it's a product for advanced users.
- mary
Wasn't Steve Gillmor thrown off of the Leo Laporte TWIT network, if my memory serves me?
- Arnold Winters
Errrr, no, Arnold, he wasn't.
- Karoli
I must be thinking of someone else
- Arnold Winters
I heard he or one of his GANG insulted Leo?
- Arnold Winters
Other way around
- Rob La Gesse
Comcast just added caller id phone call alerts on my cable tv - kinda cool. kinda weird. Is an alert on my web browser next?
Rob La Gesse liked this
It is, if a local company has their way - http://perftech.com/. And I would welcome it, if I can filter it.
- Rob La Gesse
@paulcarr let's continue our hangman game on FriendFeed so we don't piss off all our Twitter friends. Here:
Richard Monte, Roberto Bonini, zʍıɔ and 6 other people liked this
...Hangman, Scoble?
- Ben Parr
My next try: "e"
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
I know! I know!
- Jesse Stay
Yes - _ _ _ _ _ I E
- Paul Carr
Can I buy a vowel?
- Rob La Gesse
Can I have an "r" and Jesse if you solve it you will save me.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
o-+-<
- Jesse Stay
w....h.....
- Dennis O'Neil
Sounds like something a dog would say
- Jesse Stay
Robert o-+- (you lost the legs)
- Jesse Stay
Robert, look at Paul's FF page, I already solved it for you.
- Jimminy
No R. The stick and the base.
- Paul Carr
Oh wait -are we gaining or losing appendages here?
- Jesse Stay
Jimminy then solve it here!
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Paul: "c"
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Try an "F" Robert.
- Jimminy
+-<
- Jesse Stay
Thank goodness :)
- Craig Eddy
...it's something which Robert has 5,598 of ;)
- Nicholas James
No. Stick, base and top.
- Paul Carr
Paul: "f"
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Nicholas posted it, for you, and then edited it out. LOL
- Jimminy
Ooh - are you drawing the actual hanging device as well? I thought we just draw the man.
- Jesse Stay
Jimminy...I made it so Robert could guess by giving him a major hint instead ;)
- Nicholas James
_ _ FFIE
- Paul Carr
Oops. _ _ _ FFIE
- Paul Carr
Nicholas, you could have also dropped Tara or Cory's name, and I think he would have a good hint also.
- Jimminy
STUFFIE
- Jesse Stay
FLUFFIE!!
- A.J. Pape
FLUFFIE
- Jesse Stay
Was that Microsoft guy the personification of "tool" or what? dang
- A.J. Pape
Hmm...another clue it was on #tc50 ;)
- Nicholas James
Here - this will help Robert: http://www.wineverygame.com/wbg...
- Jesse Stay
that would be too simple. whuffie
- Rachel Clarke
Can I have a "t"?
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
oh rachel.
- A.J. Pape
Nope. You just got the head.
- Paul Carr
Heh. W
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Scobe was going for TUFFIE - iPhone app for bullies
- A.J. Pape
Doesn't the whole idea of the Whuffie bank basically destroy (by quantifying) the notion of altruistic mutual aid? It's like paying people to do what's right....u stop paying and then they stop doing it.
- A.J. Pape
I just wanted to lose cause I feel like hanging myself.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
W _ _ FFIE
- Paul Carr
Can I have a w?
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Robert, you need to interview @chamillionaire for Building43
- Jesse Stay
Can I have an "h"?
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
omg.....could this be it?? the big moment? #hangmanshowdowntc50
- A.J. Pape
Don't leave us, uh, hanging!
- Jesse Stay
You're killing us!
- Jesse Stay
I'm all choked up
- Jesse Stay
hug it out jesse!
- A.J. Pape
I was wondering what all this real-time web stuff was for .... now I get it
- Charlie Anzman
It's gotta be "whuffie"
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner.
- Jimminy
I will await final adjudication. But I'm over-cautiously optimistic.
- A.J. Pape
Ha! Who knew hangman could be a spectator sport? Very fun. Great commentary.
- Tony "Frosty" Welch
It's WHUFFIE! YES! Well done Robert! (Sorry for delay - was caught up at the after party)
- Paul Carr
"Live talk" from Rackspace - http://www.rackspace.com/index...
Still waiting for someone to talk to me.....(after 10 minutes)
- Jim Connolly
from Bookmarklet
That's 25 minutes.
- Jim Connolly
Maybe your not holding your tongue right.
- Brent Smorgen Bleg
Okay - I'm guessing that after 2 hours, i'm not going to experience the delights of Rackspace's "live chat" facility.
- Jim Connolly
3 hours later...
- Jim Connolly
truly apologize...still having issues? email me if so...i am also getting team on it. lmoorman@rackspace.com
- lew
Jim - I sent you an email. Please feel free to respond and I'll make sure you get the help you need.
- Rob La Gesse
Gillmor Gang 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Stephen Edgar, Francine Hardaway, Derrick Peters and 35 other people liked this
11 viewers for a test pattern, and I seem to be one of them.
- Cliff Gerrish
Getting ready to rock 'n' roll
- Tina Chase Gillmor
It is a nice test pattern though.
- Warner Crocker
Cliff - it is a CLASSY test pattern though :)
- Rob La Gesse
Timing. LOL
- Warner Crocker
Bret Taylor of Facebook will join us to talk about open sourcing Tornado
- Steve Gillmor
I don't recognise that test pattern but the zone plate parts are showing some hf loss...
- Kevin Marks
Cool! From what I know so far, I think I'm in love with Tornado.
- Vezquex: God of FF
I'm in the Gillmor Gang studio.
- Robert Scoble
Please stand by. Technical difficulties are being worked on.
- Robert Scoble
I'm enjoying the test pattern. Heard Steve's voice, so I'm sure we're closer to a b-cast. :)
- Karoli
Karoli: yup. Getting closer.
- Robert Scoble
10.9.8.7.
- Robert Scoble
Look - a @building43 t-shirt! :)
- Rob La Gesse
Puppets are all the rage right now. :)
- Karoli
buffering, unwatchable
- Mark
The feed is coming in crystal clear for me....
- Mike Kelly
Mark: sorry. Is anyone else seeing this problem?
- Robert Scoble
There was a bit of a glitch, but all's well now.
- Ken Sheppardson
Working well for me.
- Jason Huebel
Cool.
- Robert Scoble
crystal clear here :)
- Adnan
Actually....the audio quality is much better than the old GG episodes!
- Mike Kelly
Really curious to hear from Bret how he'd tie XMPP into Tornado... where he sees the intergration points and overlap.
- Ken Sheppardson
Is Kevin Marks still with google?
- Adnan
Is there an audio only feed?
- Shaun Trennery
Shaun: close your eyes. ;-)
- Robert Scoble
LiveJournal growth/uptime was a lot like the present Twitter headache.
- Jay Cuthrell
Kevin is now with British Telecom. VP of Web Services
- Ken Sheppardson
:) Thanks Robert, bandwidth here in South Africa is limited. My pigeon is fast asleep.
- Shaun Trennery
Tornado chat room demo instance http://chan.friendfeed.com:8888/
- Ken Sheppardson
Real-Time Remastering....wow..talk about Gillmore Gang 3.0
- Mike Kelly
Whoo! name check
- Jack
Transcoding on the fly circa 2001 :) Nice!
- Jay Cuthrell
Thanks Steve
- Shaun Trennery
Waiting for the tech geek hitler moment when someone says that Google Wave is dead
- Ross Mayfield
Jack: waiting for your remastering magic! :-)
- Robert Scoble
"Some guy named Jack" :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
This is greatly enjoyable and informative. Thank you all.
- Harry Wolff
bingo
- Ross Mayfield
what method does tornado use to pull updates that it pushes realtime?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Wave is XMPP based... hence my earlier question RE how he'd tie XMPP into Tornado... where he sees the intergration points and overlap.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ross: that one was for you!
- Robert Scoble
:-)
- Robert Scoble
;-)
- Ross Mayfield
I'd love to know when noreply and donotreply goes away from Facebook notification emails.
- Jay Cuthrell
Mochiweb (Erlang web framework) has some pretty easy to use support for long-polling too. Use it at http://replies.twitterfall.com for the streaming API there. I think Facebook use it for chat? (guess)
- Jalada
Agreed Steve.......This is now officially WAY over my head.... ;-)
- Mike Kelly
So, Bret... any plans for a near-term Tornado meetup?
- Ken Sheppardson
Has there been any discussion on any top line scaling metrics they are shooting for now? i.e. transcations per second, etc.
- Jay Cuthrell
Thursdays between 1 - 2pm SFO likes to fly jets over the NGL studios! We must have a talk about this
- Tina Chase Gillmor
lol, love the Canter picture
- Ross Mayfield
agreed... great Canter action shot :)
- Jay Cuthrell
I believe that was at LeWeb several years ago. But Marc was famous for sleeping at conferences.
- Robert Scoble
thanks... I'll take credit for the Canter photo. Not for taking it but for choosing it
- Tina Chase Gillmor
awesome! :)
- Susan Beebe
jazz?
- Jay Cuthrell
yeah, what was that? :)
- Susan Beebe
new Kenny G intro music...
- Mike Kelly
Someone was on hold and it leaked out.
- Robert Scoble
I seriously want that Calliflower hold music MP3
- Ken Sheppardson
That's a great blog - I follow it
- Jesse Stay
whats the future of friendfeed?
- Adnan
Ask him how scaling for Facebook compares to scaling from Google?
- Jesse Stay
robert - do you have a public blog reference for digg using casandra?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Cassandra uses Thrift too, which supports Python, so the two go together well.
- Jalada
Can't wait to work with Brett in Platform
- Jesse Stay
Mike: I saw it on one of the Digg guys' twitter accounts. I'll try to find some details.
- Robert Scoble
Rob, thanks for saving me the time! :-)
- Robert Scoble
BTW, Brett's saying it wrong - it's not "the Facebook Platform". It's "Facebook Platform".
- Jesse Stay
reading that too!
- Susan Beebe
His Colleagues would correct him on that :-)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: on what?
- Robert Scoble
Robert, on pronunciation of Facebook platform - there's no "the"
- Jesse Stay
exactly
- Jay Cuthrell
Ahh.
- Robert Scoble
They're very picky about that - it's "Facebook Platform" and not "The Facebook Platform". #littlethings :-)
- Jesse Stay
Any questions for Bret?
- Robert Scoble
The same "Rackspace Cloud" vs "The Rackspace Cloud" argument :)
- Rob La Gesse
Yes, they definitely can.
- Jalada
We're using Pubsubhubbub at http://rssfall.com but it's trivial to add rssCloud support and we're going to.
- Jalada
When will we get to see some of the FriendFeed-like real time features in the Facebook stream?
- Jesse Stay
And when will that work with the API?
- Jesse Stay
Q: What impact will today's release of @Mentions on Facebook have on their infrastructure, performance?
- Susan Beebe
Listening to this is so very interesting if you remember things like "ATG Dynamo" and the personalization wave of the .com days
- Jay Cuthrell
"Pub hub sub bub"? Nice :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Can anyone ask Bret if Friendfeed plans to open source more of their code. Would love to see how Friendfeed handles the aggregation of all the user feeds.
- arjo
thanks rob and rob!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
*boom* moment is when the homepages change
- Jay Cuthrell
Jesse - great question!
- Susan Beebe
Will friendfeed keep using their mysql blob store system or will they move to something more native to the FB platform?
- Ian Kallen
arjo: I will try to get to that.
- Robert Scoble
Facebook supports activitystrea.ms already
- Jesse Stay
Ian: I think the answer is clear that the future is Cassandra and other systems built to deal with 300-500 million users.
- Robert Scoble
De jure versus De facto? :P
- Jalada
that's why at the IETF they learned the hard way that implementation trumps a lone spec
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
"Drool: "Tornado comes w/ built-in support for Facebook Connect, Twitter, Google, FriendFeed and OAuth + OpenID." -- http://friendfeed.com/chrisme...
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert - Question for Bret --> What impact will today's release of @Mentions on Facebook have on their infrastructure, performance?
- Susan Beebe
assuming the thing enclosed is relevant to the stream presentation method
- Jay Cuthrell
You can learn more about Facebook's activity streams here: http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index...
- Jesse Stay
thanks Jesse!
- Susan Beebe
maybe Facebook RTVR will be available for timeshift realtimers (like DVR/Tivo for stuff)
- Jay Cuthrell
Nice show guys - thanks.
- Rob La Gesse
epic GG -- thanks!
- Jay Cuthrell
Thanks GG ! :)
- Susan Beebe
Interesting show, thanks :-)
- Jalada
Great show!
- Mike Doeff
really interesting stuff. thanks.
- Karoli
Thanks to Bret Taylor, great show. No drama, either!
- Robert Scoble
heheh
- Jay Cuthrell
Thank you all! Great show!
- Harry Wolff
hahah :)
- Susan Beebe
great show!
- Adnan
I'd love to see more GG's like that. That was a great show.
- Jesse Stay
Robert, you should have blurted out "You Lie!". Add some controversy :)
- Mike Doeff
Great show guys, thanks
- Ivan Kirigin
Best one in a long while - really good stuff
- Susan Beebe
Jesse: I'd like see more but I value the mix over the homogeneous
- Jay Cuthrell
The mix of what will it be is why I show up
- Jay Cuthrell
excellent show - enjoyed the pace and the questions
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bravos! Wonderful show. Thank you.
- Dave Martin
I agree Susan. I hope that Steve has more geeks on and fewer arguers in the future.
- Robert Scoble
Robert - well said! no drama queens - geeks only! :)
- Susan Beebe
Kevin, Robert, Bret & Canter - thanks for a great show. Thank you all for showing up
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Tina - thanks for the Canter photo -- best LOL of the day :)
- Jay Cuthrell
Maybe next time. I hope it went well.
- Michael Fidler
Unofficial MP3 of this show: http://www.archive.org/downloa...
- Jack
Does anyone have audio/video of the newsgang live from earlier this week?
- Michael Breslin
Michael: There's a repository of bootlegs at http://www.archive.org/downloa...
- Ken Sheppardson
Another link for a bootleg of today's show: http://friendfeed.com/jackx1...
- Mike Doeff
Yeah I know about that, unless I'm mistaken it doesn't have the newsgang live from tue 09/08
- Michael Breslin
I've only been recording episodes of the Gillmor Gang so unless someone else has recorded NewGang you will have to wait until Steve puts it on YouTube
- Jack
Mike: That link is to the same file as in the bootleg feed
- Jack
Ken: All those files are linked to in a shiny feedburner interface here: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/bootleg... Plus its a handy RSS feed
- Jack
NewsGang Live @ 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Derrick Peters, Susan Beebe, andy brudtkuhl and 18 other people liked this
I know I'll be there, NGL at 1pm.
- Cliff Gerrish
See you there, gang!
- Tom Milsom
Today? On Tuesday? Has it moved from Thursday? (per building43.com/realtime)
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken - we're doing NewsGang Live in a few minutes. Thursday is still Gillmor Gang
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Ah. Got it. Missed the "News" part :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Echo. Fixed.
- Ken Sheppardson
yay!
- Francine Hardaway
Weird hearing everybody at the same time again.
- Ken Sheppardson
Nice for us all to be back!
- Rob La Gesse
What a little cutie pie.
- Amyloo
Great to hear these voices again.
- Mike Doeff
Watching this live :)
- Robert J Taylor
It feels just like 2008 except that Obama won!
- Michael Pinto
Those of you on video - get your mouse cursor off your faces :)
- Rob La Gesse
where is the video for Francine Hardaway - we need to see the dogs!
- Michael Pinto
Is there a link to Tom's material?
- Mike Doeff
Thanks Ken
- Mike Doeff
brilliant and poignant tune
- Eran Even-Kesef
The Internets Got Talent with Steve Gillmor
- Dave Martin
Two fer Tuesday!!
- Matt Terenzio
Excellent
- Amyloo
claps
- Mike Doeff
I just got home, anything happen? Too many interviews packed into today.
- Robert Scoble
Unless Phil can sing his response I think it's unfair
- Michael Pinto
robert they've just been getting started
- Michael Pinto
Robert - You missed introductions and Tom's song.
- Ken Sheppardson
All depends on your perspective Robert
- Matt Terenzio
phil why are you opposed to a public option?
- Eran Even-Kesef
@MichaelPinto - sounds like Phil's rapping his response :)
- Robert J Taylor
I'll just listen in.
- Robert Scoble
Intros - Steve, Michael Markman, Karoli, Francine Hardaway, Rob La Gesse, Tom Milsom and Phil Windley. :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
where is loren feldman?
- HansVanRock
loren was on last week
- Michael Pinto
Loren has been on GillmorGang. That's Thursday. This is NewsGang
- Ken Sheppardson
@Hans - tending to puppets? *shrug*
- Robert J Taylor
well, then a loren puppet would be cool
- HansVanRock
loren is deep into the study of his Shari Lewis videos
- Dave Martin
@Hans - yep :)
- Robert J Taylor
so what you are saying is that we need a public option, if medicare and medicaid needs to come into the debate
- Eran Even-Kesef
it's not so much the republicans - but the lobbyists for the health insurance companies, keep in mind that many blue dog Dems are the problem
- Michael Pinto
yes a few blue dogs and ALL republicans are opposed
- Eran Even-Kesef
Failing the senate 60 they will be pushed into reconciliation
- Dave Martin
Phil? Explain, specifically, why you feel a free market is so essential for our HEALTH? We discuss this like there's some mystery about alternatives. Canada's system is less than perfect, but try finding an unhappy Canadian. You can't. Why is that? Why do THEY make it work, but we can't? Explain that to us. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009...
- Shoq
Rudy is just adding noise to the debate
- Michael Pinto
jet plane overhead
- Tina Chase Gillmor
as long as you dont need to use your plan in a serious way, you will remain happy with the plan
- Eran Even-Kesef
The seniors are upset. They don't want cuts to Medicare.
- Francine Hardaway
Phil is right in that Harry Reid hasn't done a good job of making thecase
- Michael Pinto
I dont thinks cuts to medicare are seriously on the table, part of the death panel myth
- Eran Even-Kesef
the longer the issue drags on the longer it looks like you don't know what you're doing - so it has hurt, look at the poll numbers
- Michael Pinto
Without seniors there's no profit in the system, that's the dirty little secret. The system is built on the backs of those most in need.
- Dave Martin
half white
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Triggers are the mid-term cycle hedge
- Dave Martin
Peter B Lewis's Progressive Insurance offers thousands of employees great plans for under $100 a month. Now why can HE do that, and not the rest of our employers? I don't know the answer, but I suspect it's because it's an HONEST insurance company working on volume, with constraints that prevent them from gambling with the pool of money. A public option can work the same way, and that's why the Insurance industry simply won't stand for a public option. Fairness is unfair competition to them.
- Shoq
those 10 points are very real if you're running in 2010
- Michael Pinto
Read this: http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...
- Francine Hardaway
Triggers are bullshit. Before a trigger could ever kick in, they'd change the rules. It just plays into the industry's hegemony over the process.
- Shoq
we lost Markman...trying to get him back
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Steve, It's a moral issue
- Dave Martin
5 jets in five minutes
- Tina Chase Gillmor
How can @kr8tr think they'll be happy with anything less than a total takeover of the whole healthcare system? ;-)
- Robert J Taylor
Karoli - you're unmuted again
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Why can't we address the people in need through our existing Social Security system? If you are in need of healthcare, apply for it through social security. We can put into place some income guidelines, etc. pretty easily.
- Stephen M. Otto
Phil. Republicans have been saying that for 60 years
- Shoq
"dealing with the people who most need it" would just mean dumping more money into SS and Medicaid, no? Or are we talking about some new benefits program? If the problem is systemic, you can't just treat a symptom.
- Ken Sheppardson
there's not universal support for that from health insurance companies
- Michael Pinto
Health insurance is NOT Healthcare. http://www.blondetwit.com/2009...
- Shoq
You guys are so last year. Mark Foley just got his own radio show :)
- Shoq
Having not read the entire blondetwit post, I'll just point out that I've always thought "health insurance for pre-existing conditions" is sort of an oxymoron.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: I am confident that the other issues can be addressed by removing gov restrictions from insurance...let insurance be offered across state boundaries, increase competition. If you find yourself without the ability to get coverage due to a pre-existing condition, this could also be addressed by applying for coverage through this suggested extension of social security. Also: tort reform.
- Stephen M. Otto
Getting a show means very little, the ball game is attracting, sustaining a competitive audience; stay tuned ;-)
- Dave Martin
Rob La Gasse, has the most reasonable argument, dealing with those who are currently uninsured should be the first priority
- Eran Even-Kesef
Stephen: I was just addressing Rob's comment that we just deal with the folks who most need it and not try to fix it all at the same time. The fundamental problem, BTW is we have lots of problems that can't be solved in 4 to 8 years. Our system is unable to deal with stuff that requires consistent objectives and approaches over a longer period.
- Ken Sheppardson
tort reform would prove to be a third-rail issue for the dems in the mid-terms
- Dave Martin
Cost controls are simply bullshit. They've talked about cost controls for 40 years. Medicare has NO ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE PRICES. WTF are you talking about?
- Shoq
Eran: we have an infrastructure in place for this. It's called Social Security, complete with Administrative Law Judges, case workers, etc.
- Stephen M. Otto
People want access to the current healthcare our country has today...we've got to be careful that we don't change the quality of care while providing access...
- Robert J Taylor
Dave. more bullshit from the past. Medical malpractice is not even 1% of medical costs. That's anoteher lie to give the right more favors for OTHER business
- Shoq
Eran - and we have borrowed heavily against it.
- Rob La Gesse
Shoq: how can you quantify defensive medicine?
- Stephen M. Otto
So when can I listen to this? Let me guess, video only? I wonder if a bootleg will show up…
- Christian Burns
from iPhone
Robert. our quality of care is not good compared to many other countries. We provide quality specialty care and suboptimal primary care and care for chronic disease.
- Francine Hardaway
Shoq - you're looking at it from a med costs pov when it's really important b/c it harms providers by reaching prohibitive levels of staying in business - ask any physician
- Dave Martin
The answer to defensive medicine is not to suddenly remove any remaining safeguards thee are. The vast majority of doctors are never sued. This is another distraction. Defensive medicine is just the latest rhetoric used by the AMA to dazzle the nation with bullshit.
- Shoq
Beautiful song, there is hope in the air!
- Eran Even-Kesef
You mean the physicians who own most of the MRI facilities in DC? When you have conflicts like that, you dont' deserve to be at the table. The entire system is bass akwards. It's not about health care. It's about profit-care
- Shoq
I second the motion
- Eran Even-Kesef
We talk about thisproblem as if the problem has no solution. We are the ONLY major nation without one, and its' simply absurd.
- Shoq
Shoq: You are right we are the only industrialized nation with out one, but we have a history of doing things differently, not always the best way.
- Eran Even-Kesef
thanks to everyone!
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Shoq, yeah it's a damn shame we can't come up with a way to totally mess over all the shareholders of those profitable companies, esp those stupid investors that are on fixed incomes depending on distributions.
- Dave Martin
Eran, and that history is coming up pretty short. It's time to find another way. Because as steve points out, we can't afford this.
- Shoq
These shareholders were oblivious for years, allowing their boards to run us into the ground. At this point, it's just one more bubble to burst, as this country escapes the mass delusions of the past 30 years. You cannot run a nation out of balance, where most of the wealth and justice trickles up to the top, and only the shit trickles down. It cannot continue like this, and no 9th...
more...
- Shoq
I agree and I argue that the only solution is a universal healthcare model, unfortunatly, to many of us are blind, miss-informed and just plain greedy. Therefore a gradual approach that Rob suggested seems to be the only practical alternative.
- Eran Even-Kesef
By the way we have a simlair situation in our education system, where there is a 50% dropout rate in the urban areas, this is can also be directly corelated to the healthcare system, and for that matter an example of our parallel tiered societies. Gosh I am sounding very radical, even though I am not.
- Eran Even-Kesef
what Shoq said.
- Michael Markman
While we are fixing/rebooting/rethinking things, might as well throw down on education and the justice/penal systems
- Dave Martin
Dave-I agree with you, there is much that needs fixing
- Eran Even-Kesef
Getting meta here...this was a good show with good discussion -- good conversation in the chat, too. NOT typical for on-line politically-charged forums!
- Robert J Taylor
Hey everyone, next time I'll figure out how to comment and be on the show at the same time. My little muddled head couldn't multitask today, but I had a great time and really enjoyed the back and forth. I'd like to give Phil Windley huge kudos for having a great counterpoint and reasonable approach. thanks to all who listened, too.
- Karoli
I agree with Karoli. Reasonable, sane Republicans seem to be an endangered species. I'm sorry my contributions were so sparse. Tech problems on my end kept punting me from the call.
- Michael Markman
Tom Milsom (@hexachordal) has posted lyrics to the healthcare song he sang on newsgang live earlier today. http://bit.ly/ptEBO Says if there's demand, he'll post a recording, too.
- Michael Markman
Michael, I would LOVE a recording. That thing would be completely viral. Does he have a FB fan page?
- Karoli
we'll rerun at 1PM Pacific tomorrow.
- Steve Gillmor
Thank you for rerunning.
- Hilary Talbot
Not just for me (but I'll admit my motivation is because I can't see it), you might want to think about varying the time of the re-run, or adding more so they're not all at the same time on weekworkdays. If possible.
- Amyloo
I agree with Amyloo. Also, now that the show has an international panel, ythere's even more reason to provide reruns that play in a variety of time-slots.
- Michael Markman
NewsGang Live now replaying at http://building43.com/realtime
- Cliff Gerrish
cool show, thanks!
- Hilary Talbot
re incremental reform, sometimes it just doesn't work. I'm thinking of decimal conversion.
- Hilary Talbot
Hilary, I just wrote a post about how I think the best way to transition to single payer should go...on a state by state basis.
- Karoli
Thanks, Karoli, it's a good post. I can see state-by-state might be the most workable approach in such a ferociously complicated issue. It's easy for outsiders like me to forget how much independence exists in your state federal relationships.
- Hilary Talbot
Sad that I can't see this show. Wish I could.
- Christian Burns
from iPhone
Anyone have a recording of this?
- Michael Breslin
Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- Jack
I don’t feel safe with Wordpress, hackers broke in and took things - http://scobleizer.com/2009...
carl morris, Tyson Key, Susan Beebe and 87 other people liked this
Well, if you have fixed the hole by upgrading; you should feel a lot safer now. I guess strong user adoption does bring the wrong kind of attention.
- Anindya Chatterjee
Anindya: we're watching. Looks like they haven't gotten back in since the upgrade and some of the other changes we made. Knock on wood.
- Robert Scoble
I'm very tempted to switch to a SixApart install. As a Perl programmer I'd be much more familiar with the backend.
- Jesse Stay
Robert, btw, I'm sure between all your users you can find a backup. I have a bunch via Google Reader I could get to Rackspace to import for you. I'm sure others have even older entries than I have. Let us know if you want help restoring the old scobleizer.com!
- Jesse Stay
robert - i can tell you this - you need to watch it like a hawk - when i thought i was safe - i wasn't - InsideTransit continues to get hit - and I still believe there is some patches and stuff that RS can do as well - the bigger issue is what's on the server - because that's where they put the shells and then they can do whatever they want.
- Allen Stern
Not cool, hopefully things will work out.
- Kim Landwehr
Jesse: luckily it was July and August, when I wasn't doing much blogging. No biggie. Thanks. Allen: yes, Rackspace Cloud has a security team now and they are actively looking at ways to make Wordpress safer for our customers. It really sucks getting hacked. Let me know if you find any other ways to protect the systems.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Yea getting hacked sucks. My early days with my blog aboutonlinematters.com I got hacked and luckily my ISP had a backup. Since then I have treated my Wordpress blog like any dev site - with a subversion repository and complete backup. But there are days... like today... when I think strongly about a platform like typepad.
- Arthur Coleman
what i have found is locking down the files helps - but you need to ftp into your site and make sure that nothing has been edited or added - in my case, on all my sites, the hackers put files all over that were base64 files - and what they do is include them into WP or they just run them direct - nearly a full shell. i've asked RS to create a way so that i can be notified of any changes to files - they say it's too heavy to run.
- Allen Stern
Robert, I just miss the traffic from your "You are SO Unfollowed!" article. (one of the casualties) ;-)
- Jesse Stay
There's a lot of great info they deleted - I'm a little ticked they would be completely insensitive like that to prove a security flaw. It affected much more than just you.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: yeah, that's probably the one blog that I miss. It's also the one that got me to notice they deleted a couple of months.
- Robert Scoble
Jesse: that still is cached over on Google at http://74.125.155.132/search...
- Robert Scoble
No way "You are SO unfollowed" is out? I loved that one! :-( thanks for the cache Robert
- Sofia @ SoMaFusion
If you have no time to take care of yuors blog, maybe it's better if you choose the pro offer from wordpress.com ( I think scobleizer.com can have the minimum requirement to stay there).
- wolly
here it the VIP hosting http://en.wordpress.com/vip-hos...
- wolly
wolly: it's not just about time, attacks come from all directions so you've gotta have a holistic approach to security. How many of you regularly change passwords and make sure they are really good ones? (Twitter got broken into not because of hacks, but because they didn't practice good password security).
- Robert Scoble
It saddens me: it is morally reprehensible your hosting company convinced you to switch with the seduction of plugins and customization without emphasizing or handling the increased responsibility of upgrades. Your blog was not unique and not a special target, the worms sweep across millions of blogs indiscriminately and hit whatever is vulnerable. If your host is lax in upgrading, the...
more...
- Matt Mullenweg
that's true :-) I use password very strange and very verylong that I cannot remember and I use a service like clipperz.com to login.
- wolly
wolly, Robert was hosted on WordPress.com for about 4 years -- he was actually the very first VIP. Although there were dozens of security updates to WordPress in that time, his blog never had a problem because it was always up-to-date. He only switched away a few months ago.
- Matt Mullenweg
Ciao Matt :-) I didn't know that, so scoble come back to the light side :)
- wolly
Matt: yup, that's true. I've learned my lesson. Running your own servers are a lot harder than just having them hosted on Wordpress.com.
- Robert Scoble
To be frank, it completely breaks whatever trust I had in Rackspace.
- Matt Mullenweg
But Matt, I've been talking with many blog owners, including at TechCrunch, and they say that Wordpress' updates break their custom plugins. That's why they don't upgrade immediately. So, sounds like Wordpress has a mess on its hands that the hosted version of Wordpress didn't have (I couldn't run a lot of plugins and video embeds and other fun things on the hosted version of Wordpress). So, to blame it on my hoster/employer (Rackspace) exclusively isn't really a good attitude either.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, It happens. We were hacked too. My observations lead me to believe that this summer was the worst in a long time. Its a war and its going to be a war until the attitude towards hackers changes. Let's stop being fascinated in the least bit by how they do it (this goes towards Kevin Mitnick and his supporters- I don't ever want to pay good money to read about your scams on the...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Matt's got a point that with greater power (self-hosting) comes greater responsibility (more need to keep an eye on security), but I think to say that Scoble's blog was not a special target is a bit disingenuous. High-profile sites are always a higher-value target.
- Rachel Luxemburg
Matt: I think you need to really look at all the damage that's being done to a wide range of sites, many of which are NOT hosted at Rackspace, before throwing more barbs. That's bull. Sorry. But I added a link to this conversation to my blog so people could see your point of view.
- Robert Scoble
If a plugin is preventing you from upgrading (did it?) then let's figure out how to fix that plugin. All I can do in WordPress is build in the notices (your blog was asking you to upgrade for months) and the one-click updates for both core and plugins. I agree it's not your (Robert Scoble's) fault because I don't think you made the conscious decision to take on the increased responsibility.
- Matt Mullenweg
Matt: the reputation around the Net is that upgrades on Wordpress break things. This wasn't a Rackspace recommendation. It's also a problem with all upgrades. I've gotten hosed by upgrades elsewhere. Look at all the people upgrading to Snow Leopard who are having things break.
- Robert Scoble
Matt: TechCrunch hasn't upgraded its blog either and it wasn't hosted on Rackspace (at least not until a couple of days ago).
- Robert Scoble
I'm not saying there isn't lots of misinformation around the net, I'm saying "how can I help your blog, please." If it's a plugin preventing you from upgrading, let me know the plugin and we'll fix it even if we didn't write it. That's the beauty of open source.
- Matt Mullenweg
Robert -- Avoiding upgrades because they're annoying to deal with isn't a viable longterm strategy.
- Rachel Luxemburg
they need to take care of Scoble's blog, well for he is a VIP and the smashing they would have would do a lot of damage to your customer base and otherwise, would they reply to an ordinary guy say like me? i think not,well wordpress/automattic is having their tough moments, hope things get well and they get their repute back
- testbeta
Matt - you blaming Rackspace for security vulnerabilities in YOUR software platform is kinda like blaming Dell when a Windows box gets hacked. I think you are being irrational.
- Rob La Gesse
Matt: in my case it was the REPUTATION of Wordpress's upgrades that was keeping me from upgrading. I was waiting to see what other people reported broke. I didn't realize the severity of the security problems. But, I am now upgrading automatically. So I'm fixed. But you still have a reputation problem. Lots of people are reporting things break when they upgrade.
- Robert Scoble
Rob, I'm not blaming them. I'm saying it's the responsibility of any host, of any software, to stay up to date. If there was a SSH vulnerability on Robert's box I would say the same thing. Software updates are inevitable, there is no such thing as bug-free code, so staying up to date is a must.
- Matt Mullenweg
Isn't all this open source code? If it's broken, why not fix it? Doesn't everyone have the responsibility to do that? It's not any one source's fault in that case.
- Jesse Stay
Matt - I agree with you. So make Wordpress upgrades SAFE, automatic AND do some internal validation of plugin code to let users know they may be running something that is potentially insecure.
- Rob La Gesse
Matt, agreed. Not when its turned out as fast as people are yelling for it. People can't have it both ways.
- Melanie Reed
Matt: all Rackspace was providing to me was a Linux host. I was responsible for getting my upgades done on anything I ran on that system. But now we have a team making sure we're following best practices. That is NOT Rackspace's problem, though. That's like blaming Microsoft for a bug in Adobe software.
- Robert Scoble
I never listen to the reputation, I always upgrade as a security upgrade is out, and if a plugin doesn't work or I deactivate it or I fix it. Security is much more important than a plugin and Matt knows how many plugins has my blog (when he looked my backend he was very sad ad he said that it was the first time for him to see so many plugin in a blog :-) ) To have a self host blog it's difficult and time expensive.
- wolly
There are several very useful plugins specifically addressing security issues; and monitoring WP for suspicious activities (both on file and database level). Here are some articles with tips to harden your blog http://bit.ly/sZgh6 (delicious bookmarks). I only install plugins from authors from whom I know that they implement top level php; no breaking of upgrades on my 3 WP blogs has taken place (2.7-2.8-2.8.4)
- Jeroen De Miranda
Yeah, plugin issues are the responsibility of the plugin developer, not Wordpress's. I don't see how this is Wordpress's or Rackspace's fault.
- Jesse Stay
By the way, Matt, Sheamus, over on my comments on my blog, says he has the latest upgrades in place and he's still being broken into. You might help him figure out how the hackers are breaking in still.
- Robert Scoble
Sorry, I was under the impression Rackspace had recommended you move away from WordPress.com and taken responsibility for the system. I was worried about your blog -- I emailed you about this in August but never heard back. It breaks my heart when someone's WordPress gets compromised.
- Matt Mullenweg
I understand the feeling though - if people are still being broken into after being told a fix was made, especially if you're not a developer, that can be a little scary. I'd look to other solutions in that case if it were me, and it's no one's fault. It's just perception and fear, very valid fear.
- Jesse Stay
I do believe there is a false sense of securty that WORDPRESS fosters by hosting plugins. I think many assume that because they download the pluging VIA Wordpress, and FROM Wordpress, it is somehow vetted.
- Rob La Gesse
Matt: no. I wanted to move to my own install of Wordpress so that I could run many more plugins and start doing stuff other professional bloggers were doing. I am learning very quickly just how much work goes on behind the scenes to make sure my words were protected.
- Robert Scoble
Once you've been hacked once if you don't clean up every trace (preferably a systems person does this) it's very likely something is left that allows the spammers to easily break back in, regardless of what version you're on. That's why the trouble with upgrading is worth it, it's much, much less than the trouble of fixing a hacked blog.
- Matt Mullenweg
Jesse: yeah, at Microsoft when a box got broken into they wouldn't let you use it anymore. They forced you to reinstall it with all patches loaded. They assumed that it was compromised and that someone stuck a back door in somewhere. That's a lot of work too.
- Robert Scoble
install either wp-backup or wp-dbmanager and configure database backup: every day; download to your local pc (or to a system other than your hosting provider); run a check once a month to see whether you can reconstruct the blog in case of calamity, That is my procedure; works fine.
- Jeroen De Miranda
if a commoner gets hacked, then he should move to wordpress.com services or what?
- testbeta
they should just make it not have any security holes!
- Mark
Robert, if you like I'd be happy to host your blog for you (and I'm on Rackspace servers). I can keep it secure as well. I'd only ask some mention of SocialToo somewhere (or payment of some form in order to cover the cost of bandwidth).
- Jesse Stay
I would also be able to keep it backed up for you.
- Jesse Stay
So the take away messages are: 1) hosting services like Rackspace support the hardware and OS layer and you're are on your own for everything else, 2) maintaining your own website is difficult work, even for experienced IT professionals, 3) social media experts may not really know how to use the social media tools they are recommending, and 4) while hosted applications like Wordpress.com provide less flexibility, they take less effort and can be more reliable for the average small business.
- Steve Wilhelm
I'll also install any plugins you're interested in trying
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: in my case, I now have a team of the top security guys at Rackspace working on it and making sure my system is up to date and backed up. They also are learning a lot about this and other people who have had problems and are building a list of best practices.
- Robert Scoble
This is eventually why I didn't go with Mosso. The service looks good, but you still have to manage your app yourself which opens you up to problems like you've experienced. It would be cool if they offered another layer of management on top so apps could be completely hands free.
- Todd Hoff
the alternative (i.e. strong vetting of all plugins) would turn the whole WordPress ecosphere into something such as Ning.... only some 300 addons (as far as I know); little flexibility very intransparent how to get your addin accepted .... Not an attractive model for me....
- Jeroen De Miranda
Robert, excellent - just wanted to make sure the offer was out there. Maybe that could be a tiered service for Rackspace, although I'm not sure it's something Rackspace wants to get into. Bluehost barely makes any money off of that type of service.
- Jesse Stay
Steve: I think that's a reasonable set of assumptions. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. When I was on Wordpress.com I was always jealous of blogs that were able to run the latest plugins and use the latest embed codes from various sites.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, it's even more fun when you can customize the plugins and themes as a developer. :-)
- Jesse Stay
@testbeta wrdpress.com is a very good choice if you don't have time or you don't know how to manage security on yors self hosted blog
- wolly
wolly: that takes out the open source fun part ;) well i have nothing much to do on my blogs so i keep mine updated ;)
- testbeta
I agree with you :-) but many people love blogging non update theirs blogs :-)
- wolly
when my sites were hacked - a wordpress employee reached out to me- i dont remember her name but we sent a few emails - i could write for days about what happened to my 5 sites - my take is simple - i think the issues are a combo of rackspace (my host) and wordpress (my software) - i can tell you this - in 3+ yrs on drupal, i was NEVER hacked. and Matt is right - the real issue is that...
more...
- Allen Stern
Allen - what version of WP are you running today?
- Rob La Gesse
2.8.4 on all of them
- Allen Stern
Allen - good :)
- Rob La Gesse
If there's a shell script on the same server as you, even if it's not your account, everything on that server is at risk regardless of the software or its version.
- Matt Mullenweg
Matt - that is NOT true
- Rob La Gesse
I would switch to a new server if I were infected at this point.
- Jesse Stay
Properly configured, user space can be isolated and these scripts cannot cross-pollinate.
- Rob La Gesse
It can be -- but publish a shell login on your server and we'll see. ;) The right answer is to scrub that sort of access.
- Matt Mullenweg
Matt - that comment on the "shell script" is silly. What are you actually trying to say?
- Robert J Taylor
Some sort of backdoor that allows a remote user to execute code -- it's super common.
- Matt Mullenweg
rob/matt - that wsa one of the biggest issues with my RS account - i had all the sites together in one "client" so when they hacked one - they were able to move around with their shell script into all my other sites - now each site is in a sep. "client" so the damage can only hurt me on one site - and believe me it does hurt :( i believe insidetransit and centernetworks are hit in google
- Allen Stern
@Scobleizer I'm sticking with @wordpress it doesn't worry me that much, plus I always update and have backups of db and site emailed to me
- Justin Yost
Allen - that was within one user space though. So what I stated above still stands true.
- Rob La Gesse
Allen and Robert are big enough that if they had a problem they could contact us and we'd help them, though as far as I know neither did, but I worry a lot more about smaller folks who get hit in the same way. The knowledge for how to properly clean up after a hack is more systems than software and not widespread.
- Matt Mullenweg
As Allen mentioned above, he did have a conversation with Wordpress.
- Rob La Gesse
matt - thanks for putting me in the same category as robert! *blush* - i did reach out to you - and your security guy was helping me big time - it seemed to turn out that the WP Contact Form 7 was the thing that caused it to start - i didn't document it all online because the security guy wanted time to get the plugin developer to fix the upload hole. - btw his name was mark jaquith and he was great
- Allen Stern
So why not some scheme where Wordpress vets a plugin and "blesses it" - perhaps a small charge for this service? As long as Wordpress is advertising plugins on the dashboard I think there ample reason to hold Wordpress to some level of accountability for those plugins
- Rob La Gesse
rob - that's what i told mark - they should offer that service for a tiny fee - stamp a "certified" stamp on it.
- Allen Stern
Just updated all my sites, doesnt look I was hit.
- sean percival
sean - no one would hit you - they know you would lala all over them
- Allen Stern
sean - happy for you!
- Rob La Gesse
I've read almost all of the comments here, not hearing these mentioned once: Robert did not backup, kept the default 'admin' username and failed to update. These are three of the most basic security measures out there. Not blaming it on Robert, because we all fail on this sometimes, but these basics really are important!
- Abounding Media
http://twitter.com/markjaq... warning of Mark in April - kept me away from WP contact form 7
- Jeroen De Miranda
Abounding: yup. And the lesson here is don't host your own version of Wordpress unless you have a security team making sure you're doing it right and backing up (something I never did on Wordpress.com, by the way). Oh, and Twitter taught us that even if you do all of that you've gotta make sure you pick great passwords and think through ways that social hacks could be done to get into your accounts.
- Robert Scoble
I've written a much longer post on this: http://wordpress.org/develop...
- Matt Mullenweg
http://markjaquith.wordpress.com/2008... some great tips of Mark Jaquith on writing secure plugins - I use these and other tips when scanning the PHP code of new plugins that I intend to use (before deploying them)
- Jeroen De Miranda
Jeroen, thanks for posting that. I've had phishers getting into one of my WP installs recently, but couldn't tell which plugin it was. I deactivated two plugins, including CF7, the other day, and haven't had any more problems. And a shoutout to Ryan Boren on the WP dev team for helping me to de-infect.
- John Craft
Robert: Welcome to the world of web development for impatient users and disgruntled hackers
- Melanie Reed
http://wordpress.org/develop... great post of Matt Mullenweg about WordPress security!
- Jeroen De Miranda
john - the CF7 is what killed me a few months ago - it's because the form allows uploads even if you don't actually have them on - i believe they patched it but i have not gone back there.
- Allen Stern
anybody know if a little smily face appearing in the lower right hand corner of ones footer is a sign of a compromise on a self hosted wp blog?
- Richard Reeve
John, your are welcome! SQL injects attacks specifically exploit data entry fields used by the plugin; one should at least scan the PHP code of these plugins, and look at what kind of escape functions are used around handling of the data entry.
- Jeroen De Miranda
"it's because the form allows uploads even if you don't actually have them on" - wow. That's bad.
- John Craft
Richard is wp-stats smily :-)
- wolly
"anybody know if a little smily face appearing in the lower right hand corner of ones footer is a sign of a compromise on a self hosted wp blog?" - if you didn't put it there, it probably is. In your admin go to appearance, theme editor, and read the footer.php file.
- John Craft
Richard - are you using the WordPress.com Stats plugin?
- Andre Natta
some plugins worth considering to install are: wp-exploit-scanner, wordpress file monitor, WP security scan, anti virus
- Jeroen De Miranda
I don't understand why people are worried about a plugin breaking when it comes to upgrading WordPress. If a plugin does break, disable it for the time being. I rather have a secure installation of WordPress running and would worry about fixing the plugin afterwards.
- Jason Hansen
Hmmmm . . . I run WP Stats, but see no smiley face.
- John Craft
ah...thanks folks...stats it is. phew...so I'm not paranoid...
- Richard Reeve
There appears to be some a-holes who can break into wordpress blogs very easily. I'm not sure at this point that the new Wordpress Thesis blog that I'm interested in getting is safe either. There is some security issues with Wordpress and their incompetence to fix the problem is growing every year. They keep coming out with new versions to replace the old versions yet they still have a problem. This is serious guys.
- Jeunelle Foster
The problem with WordPress is that it forces you to upgrade. Imagine if Microsoft forced everybody to upgrade to Vista/Windows 7 in order to get their security holes plugged. WordPress should release security patches for the current and at least for the previous version.
- Nikolay Kolev
They dont force you to upgrade. If you dont want to patch, you can leave it at the current version ( but with a risk )
- Kashif Khan
Where's the patch for the 2.7 version then?
- Nikolay Kolev
Their versioning strategy bumps up numbers even for patches . And how many versions behind should they support ?
- Kashif Khan
Many of the WordPress security issues are not coming from the WordPress itself, but from the poorly written WordPress plugins. I think it would be nice if Automattic starts an "Automattic Certified" program giving blog owners the peace of mind they need. Every hacker can upload a plugin at WordPress.org, advertise it as something great, bloggers install it, see that it's nothing as advertised, uninstall it, but the WordPress instances are already hacked.
- Nikolay Kolev
Plugins are open source and free and nobody (well, with some exceptions) would pay to get their free plugin certified. The only way to do this is by having a community review process, based on some credibility score and voter authority system where 1,000 fake hacker accounts won't, for example, outweigh Matt's or Mark's votes.
- Nikolay Kolev
part of the problem is the cry wolf syndrome - if i updated every day wordpress had a security problem i'd want to be salaried on the payroll :D Wordpress needs some sort of alert notification - twitter or something that indicates if there's an update AND the severity and if its severe enough sends it to my phone.
- mal
let me play the other side of the coin - i've been using vbulletin for my forums for probably more than 5 years - and it's never once been hacked - why is this - is it because it's paid? is it just more secure? would love to get some input on why wordpress seems to be the attacker's gold.
- Allen Stern
@allenstern because it pays back better to have wp hacked
- A.T.
Another devil - I have clients using Expression Engine for years (with plugins) and haven't had a problem either. Checking security sites, EE has had very few vs the many with WP and some with Drupal. Matts suggestion that one hosts with him to avoid problems and keep updated just isn't in the cards for business sites. Just too many vulnerabilities with WP over the years for me to recommend it.
- PXLated
i can tell you that within 2 days of moving from drupal to wp, my sites were hacked - all of them - and it made me seriously question the move - the reasons i moved were because wp is a bit easier to edit/code than drupal and because the admin panel in wordpress is awesome compared to the crap panel in drupal - i wrote up a whole post about why i moved - i'd like to see matt write a post about their qa and security procedures for their releases
- Allen Stern
Alen, once Drupal 7 get released, you may actually go back. :)
- Nikolay Kolev
Robert - If I were you I'd move away from Wordpress and fast. Its security record is dire and has been for ages. Other solutions are a lot more stable, whereas Wordpress seems to have security bugs every second week. Why anyone puts up with it is really beyond me. I moved to MovableType and haven't had to worry about caching issues or security problems
- Michele Neylon
#somethingpersonal WP calls you "technical evengelist", Robert. When you say «Yes, I didn’t have a backup. I should learn to do backups» I call you a mediawhore. Nothing TECH-NI-CAL, just bulled ego. Learn Security, Performance, Reliability, you ignorant piece.
- Капитан Сильвер Буллет
Robert - "the reputation around the Net is that upgrades on Wordpress break things" I'm sorry but that's just not true, I use many many plugins across about 20 sites and I've only ever ONCE had a plugin break during a WP upgrade.
- John O'Nolan
Definitely check if Google Reader has your lost posts - as of a few months ago, it didn't handle deletes very well :)
- Michael Herf
This recent wave of WordPress incidents shows the negative side of using open source software. Matt says that there are many people looking into WordPress' source code, but the problem is that probably half of those people have malicious reasons for doing so.
- Nikolay Kolev
@Matt - why not have a module that adds *automatic* upgrades? The one-click update feature is very nice, but zero clicks is better. With a decent snapshot/rollback system you could update most people securely right away--email them and let them rollback if something breaks.
- Michael Herf
@robert: we might be able to help you recover the lost blog posts if you want. Google Reader has an archive of them and we helped another blogger in the past recover her losses. Let me know if we can help.
- Edwin Khodabakchian
@matt when do you start to care about poor people unlike robert... who can't afford *VIP* i am willing to pay $25+ per month of course with my adsense ads :}
- Imran Jafri
@robert by the way you made one of the worst choice to move away from wordpress.com i think it wasn't price issue rather you wanted to be brand *ambassador* for rackspace which was only possible if you host your blog on their damn servers... if i get enough visitors i would switch to wordpress.com vip without taking 2nd breathe........
- Imran Jafri
I run just a few plugins, and research and vet them first. And upgrade to new WP versions within a week. Look, attacks happen, running self-hosted can get complicated. But this is true with any software or OS
- Bob Morris (polizeros)
from iPhone
Nikolay, it's always better to have more people looking at the code, because a bug that's been found is better than a bug that hasn't. WordPress used to get almost no security problems and people thought it was because it was coded differently, when in fact it was coded far worse than it is today it just didn't have enough users to make it worthwhile to target. Also where many...
more...
- Matt Mullenweg
Nikolay: I would also push back against your assumption that using Open Source software equals less security. Microsoft Windows and OS X are both closed source and both have security holes - there is a competition each year to help MS and Apple find them and fix them. Both Apple and Microsoft came away with security holes to fix this year. So just because it's open source doesn't...
more...
- Tim
that's what you get for the fun of installing and hosting your own installation, instead of using "the cloud".
- Ihar Mahaniok
Robert - I recommend WP S3 Backups for backing up your database to off-site storage. Amazon S3 is a great place to host backups of your Wordpress database and is relatively inexpensive. You *always* want backups *off* the server so in case the server is compromised, the backups are still clean. This plugin works like a charm, is automatic and could have saved you. Cheers!
- Scott Jarkoff
anybody know of a test that can be done to see if a wp blog has been compromised? Has a few strange user subscriptions about a week ago...but not noticing any thing else...I did upgrade weeks ago, but soon enough?
- Richard Reeve
bug exploits keep security IT folks in their day job, sad but true.
- Jim Posner
In IT it keeps me busy but the reality is if you update your software on a regular basis you can minimize these from affecting you.
- Rob Cairns
Robert, any chance archive.org has some of your old blog posts? Google Cache?
- drew olanoff
Matt, another thing to note is that Wordpress.com is often blocked in China (even if you have your own custom URL like scobleizer.com). There are advantages to NOT being hosted by Wordpress.com although your point about increased responsibilty for keeping up with security patches is still valid.
- Elliott Ng
Drew: yeah, but what do I do? Just republish them?
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Sure why not. Scoble's best of. Reason why I hate stuff on the net sometimes is good stuff gets lost.
- drew olanoff
Give a try to the "WordPress Database Backup" plugin for WordPress and you'll receive regular backups on your email
- Francois Lamotte
Robert, You can get all of your lost blog post html out of Google Reader. I'm not exactly sure how to link Disqus back, maybe it's as simple as re-adding the old posts with the same title/date i.e. Url (I don't use it). Yet another reason to use FULL RSS feeds (instead of summary). See RSS isn't dead.. it's now a backup tool too! (http://ff.im/7JrlC)
- Chris Myles
Wordpress is a great blogging tool. It is however the largest target now - much like how Windows gets a crap-top more virii because it's the most used system. Someone used Drupal as am example of security... well I'm sure if Drupal was anywhere near the scale of usage Wordpress is you'd see hacks for that too.
- Gregory Wild-Smith
Robert: Just repost them with the dates set to the original dates they were posted. Simple, and no-one will ever know ;)
- Gregory Wild-Smith
I have always had a bad feeling about Wordpress. YMMV.
- Gordon Joly
from twhirl
Robert It could be a Rackspace problem and Not a Wordpress Problem. They might to increase there security on the Rackspace!!! You should checck into that!!
- Paul
One of the reasons I waited 2 years to switch from MovableType to WordPress was due to the security issues. I felt that the track record improved over the past year and moved 11 sites over. I can say this I employ a very extensive back up scheme but still worry about it. The ability to upgrade with a single click of a button has made it much easier to upgrade, but I always worry which plugins are going to break as I use a lot of plugins.
- Todd Cochrane
It's interesting to me to see the number of people who are "afraid" to implement a security update because it might break a plugin. I wonder if these are the same people who don't run system updates on Mac or Windows because it might break SIMBL or some other haxie. Your core = your core... without it you're smoked. Case in point: Scoble. If your plugins aren't working after an update, let the author know and request an update, but BY ALL MEANS don't ignore security upgrades.
- Kevin Donahue
hmm... I think that a lot of this conversation is missing something. Most software security updates are usually tested in hosts and thus delayed in their own releases by at the minimum of a week's time usually. This is due to hosting internal testing of patches before rolling it out to all servers. Now, whether or not RS actually performs these types of procedures, I don't know... but I...
more...
- Ben Hwang
First: I keep my blog up to date. Always. Fuck plugins, I decided that when I made the decision to use WP for my blog that updates would be a priority, only because of all the security issues that I remember from the early early days. Having said that, I have to agree with Robert that the perception with WordPress, despite all the work with auto-updates and in-blog notification is STILL...
more...
- Christina Warren
from iPod
I am spending the day finally making a back-up of my web space, then the upgrade.
- Sebastian Keil
you are right to not feel safe: when you are on the dominant platform, holes get taken advantage of really fast. At least it being open source you know it will also get plugged fast
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
"what do I do? Just republish them?" - Robert, you can set the published date to the original July or August date in the "new post" form. Where it says "publish immediately," click "edit".
- John Craft
I couldn't disagree more that the reputation is that an upgrade will break a plugin. How many plugins reach into the Wordpress core and screw around with it? Less than 5%? Any examples of plugins that broke w/ 2.8.4?
- beersage
Somebody hacked into my WordPress blog earlier this year as well. It was a bummer because I was working on a draft copy of a blog post that was very rough and had not been edited and they published it. I was on vacation shooting in Chicago and didn't figure it out until several hours after they'd already published it. Fortunately they didn't seem to do anything malicious other than...
more...
- Thomas Hawk
@Robert: "[Rackspace] are learning a lot about this and other people who have had problems and are building a list of best practices." Is it possible this list is something RS might share?
- John House
@Matt Mullenweg: I do like WordPress (even though we had a public argument with you and another Automattic employee on TechCrunch a while ago) and I am a passionate supporter of open source software - don't get me wrong. But sometimes open source code makes it a bit easier for hackers! For example, one hacker hears about an exploit and without communicating with others, finds the hole independently by just looking into the source code and starts exploiting it on his own.
- Nikolay Kolev
Gregory Wild-Smith Bingo!
- Melanie Reed
Social Media Club blogs got hit as well as several of our personal blogs (still sorting it all out). We try to keep up on most upgrades, but every time we do, simple plugins (like the Event calendar) break. Seems silly, but we have hours of work after each upgrade to try and keep everything intact, and sometimes, we end up downgrading until the 'essential' plugins catch up, which...
more...
- Kristie Wells
I have 2 wordpress blogs. One on my own domain and one at wordpress central. Still can't get my head around their upgrade gymnastics - may just stick with eBlogger after all.
- Houseofmax
i don't know what will happen in times to come but from the existing platforms, i love wordpress and i am not going anywhere, but that doesn't matter for wordpress right? ;)
- testbeta
Robert, at the end of it is just only your bloody laziness in upgrading that led you here :) Jokes aside, please at least be honest and say you didn't upgradede twice... :p.
- Matteo Flora
Nope. I upgraded to 2.8.4 as soon as it was out but the hackers had already broken in.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
The fact that WordPress is currently being exploited doesn't mean that other platforms are immune. For example, the recently discovered XSS issue with Ruby on Rails makes not only blogs, but every unpatched site a target. So, the only issue I'm having is forcing us to upgrade to a new major version without much time to do proper testing (I'm not talking about personal blogs here). I...
more...
- Nikolay Kolev
So Techdirt was hacked a bit ago. See their reaction: http://www.techdirt.com/article... it is the reality of owning a web site guys - ANY software is hackable if someone really wants in.
- Adam Singer
@Robert: as I see it Wordpress is as vulnerable as any other web app. Upgrading does good, but preemptive security does more and better. I know Matt and he knows I'm in awe with him and Automattic but simply spoken I DON'T TRUST WORDPRESS as I don't trust any other software. A little WebApp Security Firewall (or at least a little .htaccess rules for admin and preemptive locking of...
more...
- Matteo Flora
i find it interesting, and depressing that people are blaming Rackspace, they're blaming Wordpress, they're blaming Robert, but no one, *no one* seems to be willing to blame the only, ONLY people who deserve blame: the evolutionary failures that attacked Robert's blog.
- John C. Welch
Thanks to your post, I found backdoor Admin in my own blog (created yesterday apparently). Promptly deleted it, upgraded blog and took other measures, which I blogged about
- Adi Rabinovich
@Matt Mullenweg: "so staying up to date is a must. - Matt Mullenweg" You gave the birth to one of the coolest piece of free software on the net, also your community is strong an love-full, you can do some PRs listening to Scoble that is crying, but you couldn't do anything better than you did. Take it easy man, all your competitors still suck. (PS. also a cleaning utility to understand better if everything is ok on our hosts would be cool ;-)
- righini riprova
Matt: What does a user need to provide, in order to be considered for a VIP wordpress.com account?
- Jim Connolly
caveat operator
- Mike Chelen
Take technology out of the picture. Something bad happened by some bad person. Happens every day... it's called crime. If a bad person got into my house because I had a weak lock or left my door unlocked, what do people usually say? "That bad person shouldn't have done that!"? Well, sure, but bad people do bad things... nothing we can do to stop them other than make it harder or...
more...
- Chris Hearn
I would simply like to reiterate the point that if you're going to put free open source software on a rented web server, you need to either know how to administer it or hire someone to do it for you. Neither Rackspace or Wordpress are to blame here. We discuss this with our clients all the time who view web development as a one off expense, then get upset when their site is hacked because it wasn't maintained.
- JP Maxwell
One more point, I think there are way too many false lines drawn over aras of responsibility - "I'm systems, not a PHP programmer. I'm a PHP programmer, not a Javascript person. I'm a designer, not a programmer or a systems person." If you are a WEB developer or responsible for maintaining hosted WEB applications, you need to know a bit about it all. It simply isn't sufficient to demarcate your knowledge sphere and point your finger at the other guy.
- JP Maxwell
Wow !
- ★ Soner Gönül
I'm pleased to announce that when the Gillmor Gang returns this Thursday at 1PM Pacific, it will be sponsored by Rackspace and streamed live on Building43's new RealTime Network channel. We'll be doing some testing between now and then. First up is my conversation with FriendFeed-->Facebook's Paul Buchheit. MG Siegler's summary is here:...
Ken Morley, Christopher Harley, Joe Magennis and 54 other people liked this
Sweetness!
- Stephen Pickering
Steve thank you for doing this! The world is a very dull place without the gang!
- Michael Pinto
Great to see The Gillmor Gang returning to the Interwebs! :) Will the episodes be available as audio and/or video podcasts for later downloading? Just in case I miss the live show...
- Daniel Chow
Will the Gillmor Gang be available as a mp3 download via podcast feed?
- Christian Burns
from iPhone
PS Remember what we learned from Jason: Make it a point to tweet a thank you to @Rackspace
- Michael Pinto
:) Thanks, Michael. Rackspace is very pleased to help bring Gillmor Gang back to the 'tubes!
- Rob La Gesse
Rack 'em up. It's game on!
- Micah Wittman
Heck, yeah!
- Scott Greiff
Hope to see it available for download.
- Dan Cameron
Yay, I am so glad to that GG is back!! Wooo hoooo!
- Susan Beebe
from iPhone
Glad the show is coming back and nice job on storming the castle for the Buchheit interview.
- Mark Krynsky
Looking forward to it...
- Wayne Sutton
yay!
- Daniel Brusilovsky
wonderful; and thanks rackspace
- w grant
GG Wikipedia page updated. :)
- Alex Harden
Glad to see this who back on the air
- Fred Grott
Since Steve never seems to respond to download questions can someone be sure to record it and torrent it or such, I've never understood the whole "real time is the new black if you're not here to catch the show live tough shit" unspoken message that seems to have been going on for awhile. I can't be the only one put off by this, the content is compelling, so I put up with it, I wish I had the willpower to not listen out of protest. :)
- Michael Breslin
i agree. or put it on the bootleg feed
- Sebastian Keil
from email
Could you record the video of the show and post it on your Youtube account?
- Charbax
Michael, I have responded. The shows will be published on YouTube and made available for download.
- Steve Gillmor
SCREW YOU Scoble...SCREW YOU!!!
- zxspectrum
Good to know Steve, I've seen the question asked so many times and never answered, I must have missed the time you did answer, my mistake, bottom line: I think the GG is the best thing on my ipod and when I can't get it on there and can't catch the show due to work it sucks. :)
- Michael Breslin
I commend Steve for his dogged pursuit of the Real time Web aka Infinity Chip, though it is brutally painful at times to follow and/or be part of every step along the way. I too vote for a nice simple "old school" rss feed for the audio only recording. Then again, I am probably missing the point.
- Jason Adams
Jason: only that the Gang is returning on video. Today I listened to a video cast of Meet the Press in the car, worked beautifully, and when I wanted to see the last few minutes of Kennedy footage, rewound and watched. Whether it is delivered by RSS or streaming is up to the user. In fact, it was easier to download directly via iPhone iTunes than synching the phone to the RSS feed on the Mac. Interestingly, it continues to download in the background while I go through email.
- Steve Gillmor
Was that Meet the Press video cast live? The issue of video versus audio is moot for me, if I don't feel like watching I don't have to, it's the time shifted aspect that people are always asking for Steve. It seems you're commited to get the show in downloadable form and that's all I was ever asking for. That the show is now in video format is great for many, I generally listen to the majority of content I consume (even if its format is video). Thanks again, can't wait for today's GG!
- Michael Breslin
Gillmor Gang for 3SEP09 - join us here to comment in RealTime!
Karoli, Fred Grott, Simon Sundén and 2 other people liked this
Will a recording be made available? My friends probably won't want to listen.
- Vezquex: God of FF
I miss the old Gillmor Gang podcasts!!
- Matt Scoble
I hear you!
- Vezquex: God of FF
Oooh! High tech!!! This is too professional.
- Matt Terenzio
High tech is great (when it works!) :)
- Rob La Gesse
Jason has a cursor in his left eye.
- Matthew Schrock
sounds great
- Fred Grott
I like the cursor there - looks like one of those prison tear-drop tats
- Rob La Gesse
I'm actually bored.
- Matt Terenzio
fuddy cated?
- Rob La Gesse
self promotion plug, I love it
- Eran Even-Kesef
If you got 'em - light 'em
- Rob La Gesse
good work, Rob
- Fred Grott
Loren gets his JA news on twitter :)
- Fred Grott
Loren - fake is often more fun :)
- Rob La Gesse
Not EVERY moron - a lot of them are still on MySpace :)
- Rob La Gesse
this is great
- Eran Even-Kesef
Love Loren - he makes up new catch-phrases in RealTime - "SocialMedier"
- Rob La Gesse
i agree with gillmor
- Eran Even-Kesef
it's a shame that online and offline are two different things
- Eran Even-Kesef
loren, you can know people in both fashions
- Eran Even-Kesef
This is great guys. Thanks for pulling this together.
- Jay Cuthrell
Watch the video on http://www.building43.com/realtim... - you get FriendFeed live in the sidebar.
- Rob La Gesse
The news organizations have the notion of "retractions"
- Jay Cuthrell
"Twitter is a marketing channel" :)
- Simon Sundén
does Scoble have the notion of retractions?
- Fred Grott
I'm in a room where links and channels each mean entirely different things... ah, packet nerds.
- Jay Cuthrell
Today we talked about routers that can send out SMS messages like "Help me I've rebooted and I can't get up"
- Jay Cuthrell
which of course means... the router could send update to Twitter ;-)
- Jay Cuthrell
"I fight authority, authority always wins" -- JCM
- Jay Cuthrell
Coming soon to driving texters - the Gillmor Gang Blindfold :)
- Rob La Gesse
Animal Planet does a pretty good book of business with barking dogs.
- Jay Cuthrell
Jay - those are Authoritative dogs though :)
- Rob La Gesse
GSM and CDMA cell jammers in a napsack
- Jay Cuthrell
Rob -- hah! only if they eat Iams, Purina, etc....
- Jay Cuthrell
What a show! reminds me of hanging in the parking lot with my old friends.
- Matt Terenzio
Ahhh - Gillmor Gang is back! People are getting pissy - that is a very good sign for the future :)
- Rob La Gesse
Isn't it an audience conference, not a performer conference?
- John Harnett
Southwest by southwest without the twitter?
- Fred Grott
what is the show that Loren is talking about? Does anyone have a link>?
- Matt Terenzio
yes 1938media.com has the link
- Fred Grott
Wow - getting fun now
- Rob La Gesse
finally the Loen Scoble love fest
- Fred Grott
It's a valid question. Is an employee in a position to be someone that talks about creating a business?
- Jay Cuthrell
And to Robert's point: Is an owner in a position to be as diversely informed about other businesses?
- Jay Cuthrell
Jay - certainly. One of the best credentials you can get is to be a player.
- Rob La Gesse
LET THE AFTER SHOW PARTY BEGIN
- Jay Cuthrell
Rob, it's very much about "hating" the game --- never the player.
- Jay Cuthrell
Well there may be some point there but Loren isn't necessarily qualified to run Rackspace just because he , too, is an entrepreneur or Business manager. Some can move across different types of companies, others are good at their expertise and just that.
- Matt Terenzio
Some successful entrepreneurs of small companies probably couldn't handle larger companies. Those good at managing larger companies might not be good entrepreneurs.
- Matt Terenzio
No one is worth what some CEOs get with the exception of Movie and Rock Stars and good left handed pitchers and RBI men.
- Matt Terenzio
Large companies (especially public ones) are infinity more complex. I have worked for many large companies, and been in a dozen startups - I know the difference.
- Rob La Gesse
Me too Rob.
- Matt Terenzio
Actually, not a dozen startups, except my own failures.
- Matt Terenzio
Matt -- I'd see it as Loren hiring a Robert when a Loren -needs- or -requires- input in an area that is far outside his bailiwick. A subject matter expert is always a valuable resource. I just think it would be interesting to see if the debate was over Robert, LLC (corp-to-corp) to Rackspace vs. Robert Scoble (W-2) an employee of Rackspace. Not that I care which is which but the point of who is wearing the heavy crown of ownership and creating a business is an important distinction.
- Jay Cuthrell
http://www.thetwitterconference.com is the show I was talking about.
- Robert Scoble
And to that end... a Robert, LLC or a Robert Scoble could be in a position to SOURCE a Loren and make a Loren's entire sales year. The power of the purse isn't always tied to being an owner or wearing the heavy crown of ownership.
- Jay Cuthrell
The thing is I study the world's best businesses. I see patterns other people, even the executives in those companies, don't see. Loren doesn't think that learning is valid, but I never sell myself as an executive, only someone who is either a passionate end user (I am) or someone who gets around the world to study the world's greatest/innovative businesses up front and center (Zappos, Target, Boeing, Intel, Microsoft, Fiat/Chrysler, Yelp, Facebook, Google, etc).
- Robert Scoble
Jay, like I say, unless they salary cap that great left hander, he can get just about anything from the baseball team owner, because he irreplaceable. he doesn't have to own the team.
- Matt Terenzio
That's a helluva lot of exposure to the "best and brightest" Robert -- now how do you parlay that into something that's Robert [tm] or whatever that might be? Or, is that not something one broadcasts into the stream and holds close to the vest?
- Jay Cuthrell
It took almost an hour but it was nice to see some drama on the Gillmor Gang again. Even if it isn't that comfortable for me personally.
- Robert Scoble
Matt -- it's also like what someone said about (ball) players in any sport... a player is rich but an owner is wealthy
- Jay Cuthrell
Don't take that too seriously Robert, you are doing fine.
- Matt Terenzio
Yes, Jay, but few of those owners start with nothing, many players do.
- Matt Terenzio
It's about caring --- no matter if you are owner or contributor or just out there as a spectator in the audience
- Jay Cuthrell
Jay: watch http://www.building43.com today and check out the Phat Philly video. That guy shares a lot of secrets of creating a successful business. Ones that work for small businesses and big.
- Robert Scoble
Matt -- no doubt, no doubt
- Jay Cuthrell
Robert that's really not going to help my diet. ;-)
- Jay Cuthrell
Jay: and a lot of coaches haven't played every position, or some haven't played much at all. Yet they are still good coaches, why? I met a famous conductor. He rarely plays music and can't play all the instruments. Loren would have you think that he couldn't be an authority on music. What I find funny is that Loren loves CNN yet have any of the reporters there done anything they are reporting on? No. Yet they are still authoritative and credible. Why?
- Robert Scoble
I was created a menu for a store that sold 21 different steak sandwiches. May launch it some day. mexicali steak, steak balboa, steak cordon bleu . . .
- Matt Terenzio
Jay: it didn't help mine, either.
- Robert Scoble
Okay, when I hit TC50 that's where I want to grab a sandwich. That "lathered in cheese" line just sold me.
- Jay Cuthrell
Shoot. I missed it. Can I just go hit "play" somewhere and watch it now?
- Ken Sheppardson
damn. now I am hungry!
- Rob La Gesse
I'll bookmark this and share it with my friends starting retail store fronts. This is good stuff.
- Jay Cuthrell
Robert, they are still often valuable and often credible but any expert on a subject knows how bad some journalism is. The truth is, it's often harmless mistakes.
- Matt Terenzio
Robert: The Yelp fear portion is gold. Do you take vignettes of these videos and re-re-present those?
- Jay Cuthrell
okay guys... I'm here in Dallas with about 200 network router packet geeks... BEER TIME
- Jay Cuthrell
Again: Robert --- thanks for being Robert and making this kind of thing happen.... good bad ugly it's making a difference and moving things forward :-D
- Jay Cuthrell
Jay: not usually. We should do that more. Unfortunately I don't own the videos I did for Microsoft, PodTech, or Fast Company so can't cut those up. But we'll try to do that for the Building43 ones once in a while.
- Robert Scoble
But I'd like to go to experts on subjects (like read AVC on venture capital) rather than read a journalist's take on some things. The fact is that Robert is an expert on a subject, and I think it's web applications and their businesses from a user's standpont
- Matt Terenzio
Jay: that sounds like a lot of fun! Thanks Matt.
- Robert Scoble
sorry I missed all the fun; yay realtime!
- Aron Michalski
any recording in the cloud? torrent? youtube?
- HansVanRock
just watched the rerun, thought it rocked.
- Karoli
indeed
- Jay Cuthrell
MP3 here: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/bootleg...
- Jack
One and one and one is three - http://www.techcrunchit.com/2009...
Rob La Gesse liked this
While Steve Gillmor found alternatives to carry on official communications, most other enterprises most likely wont allow the kind of flexibility techcrunch did. This will def hurt the enterprise adoption that Google is aiming for. CIO's will be skeptical eevn though the outages at most internet services are most likely to be more frequent and significantly less publicized
- Yash Asher
The outage will improve Google's enterprise credibility once IT compares the service at scale.
- Steve Gillmor
Being in this industry, I see the opposite. Shorter outages with less impact on credibility. Because at the end of the day - who can (reliably) claim that cloud services are less available than even Amazon.com was 3 years ago? The bar is rising - no doubt. But no reason to call out that the sky is falling - it isn't. We have the most robust and reliable Internet we have ever enjoyed. Right NOW. And we have more options then ever, at a price point that approaches free. Who is losing here?
- Rob La Gesse
Gillmor Gang - 27AUG09
Daniel Chow, Aron Michalski, Mike Doeff and 2 other people liked this
OK, comments for todays "show of silence" belong here :)
- Rob La Gesse
better call "The Tech Guy"
- HansVanRock
none of that.
- Amyloo
it was a pofound session, one for the history books
- Eran Even-Kesef
Though there is no show yet, the real-time web is still allowing for conversation...kinda a case study unto itself
- Robert J Taylor
*** POST-SHOW UPDATE *** README *** If you're coming to this late and just starting to read through the thread, I'm updating this old comment a couple hours after the show was scheduled... The show didn't happen due to technical difficulties. You didn't miss anything. Well... you missed the conversation here on FF as we killed some time, but you didn't miss the show, per se. Stay tuned to the RealTime Network room for (re)scheduling updates.
- Ken Sheppardson
Question about the #gillmorgang tag: does this apply to Twitter, Friendfeed, or both?
- Vezquex: God of FF
Re: the hashtag - anywhere social media is found - soon we'll pull in from about any feed.
- Rob La Gesse
Hans: oh yeah that would go over well, need to credit Francine @hardaway with saying "Call Leo" first :)
- David Stratton
thx
- Web Pixie
awkward pauses are part of the fun #gillmorgang
- Brian Hendrickson
Brian that's hilarious!
- Francine Hardaway
Embrace the silence
- Mike Doeff
this is simply the most fun we've ever had here on the #gillmorgang
- Brian Hendrickson
I'll let you all cover the hash tag thing; I'm quite inexperienced with it. As for the delay, it adds to the legend and the charm of the GG we already know and love.
- Aron Michalski
I hope nobody's surprised that the folks in the "RealTime Network" room are somewhat impatient, eh?
- Ken Sheppardson
is there any hope we'll see the rising of the phoenix before it's over or will we need to wait until next week?
- Marko
we're using this time to calibrate the bandwidth use ans scale the back end infrastructure to assess the potential for maximizing global and regional impact on a wide variety of social metrics.
- Rob La Gesse
KShep has a sense of humor
- Francine Hardaway
Dogs have given up and gone down for their naps:-)
- Francine Hardaway
You don't really have to use layman's terms with us... we're part of the advanced guarde...or something...
- Aron Michalski
Actually, we are looking for a lost 5 1/4 inch floppy that runs everything.
- Rob La Gesse
I'm playing the Calliflower hold music on a loop here just for old time's sake.
- Ken Sheppardson
I have the floppy here somewhere in a file. Or is it in Phoenix in a file? Just hang on, Rob, I will find it:-)
- Francine Hardaway
I'm home but usually I listen to the Lodgenet theme in order to feel like I'm in a poorly cleaned hotel room...
- Aron Michalski
This is more of Steve Gillmor's brilliant modern-day Dada, isn't it
- Kevin Marks
lol ken. hum a few bars
- Amyloo
The absence of show is the show.
- Ken Sheppardson
I think Steve is waiting for RSS to die before starting the show
- Michael Pinto
The data collected from the waiting for the show is more important than the lack of topic.
- Aron Michalski
Friendfeed frame is cumbersome. I know I can go directly to friendfeed in another window but. . .
- Matt Terenzio
looks like I'll have to leave work in the middle, at this point. I don't suppose you can stream usteam on the iphone?
- Amyloo
Matt - welcome! @Amyloo - there is a ustream iPhone app!
- Rob La Gesse
hmmmm! thx
- Amyloo
-amyloo There is an app for that. (really there is, go download uStream)
- Jerry Schuman
Glad to see I haven't missed anything Rob. Actually I take that back, but I'm glad to be here.
- Matt Terenzio
Steve - how about you just turn the cameras and mics on and let us watch you try to fix it? That might be fun in and of itself!
- Rob La Gesse
guess I'll bide my time with a round of "Launching Sheep"
- Jerry Schuman
maybe try resetting the PRAM cmd-opt-p-r wait for 2 long tones
- Brian Hendrickson
Is there some sort of scheduling window that closes at some point, or are we just sitting on the proverbial tarmac?
- Ken Sheppardson
Nice one Ken
- Matt Terenzio
The Tarmacians, that's us.
- Amyloo
If this was like VirginAmerica they'd start handing out free booze.
- Jerry Schuman
track [podcast][next] Gillmor Gang
- Matt Terenzio
i'm using this time to scan the building43 page searching for secret messages and shaking the screen 3 times to see if scoble pops up.
- michael sean wright
Ken - you are not allowed to leave the plane until the flight crew says you can. Sorry - we are out of food and beverages, and both bathrooms are fouled. Thanks for flying Gillmor Airlines.
- Rob La Gesse
bummer, my advance math and strategic lunch and meeting planning all so I could listen before driving home (EST) tossed out the window :( hope you allow these to be recorded this time around Steve
- David Stratton
In a few months we'd be able to pass the time poking each other.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken: I think this is an American Airlines flight out of DFW and we're stuck on the plane waiting for the T-storm to pass. :)
- Robert J Taylor
Virgin Air just announced that they're in the red...maybe good not to follow that model :)
- Karoli
Rob: lol
- David Stratton
so can someone in the know tease us and tell us who the guests will be?
- Michael Pinto
Karoli: does that mean fewer photos of parasailing with supermodels?
- Robert J Taylor
Earlier I heard Andrew Keen and Loren Feldman talking to each other about who could and couldn't hear each other.
- Ken Sheppardson
Michael - WE are the guests, and THIS is the show! We've been "Gillmor'd"
- Rob La Gesse
Gillmor Gang has always been a money-maker. . .for the listeners
- Matt Terenzio
Rob I would have dressed better if I knew I was a guest!
- Michael Pinto
Truly VRM
- Matt Terenzio
GRM - Gang Relationship Management
- Matt Terenzio
If we are the guests which one of us gets to yell screw you, and storm off?
- Aaron Dyer
Do those two cancel each other out? They may be out of phase with one another...
- Aron Michalski
Lately when I'm commenting on more chat-link threads like this I think I should create a different FriendFeed account specifically for this sort of conversation, distinct from the "normal" stuff. Whadya think, gang?
- Ken Sheppardson
Good to "see" you all again.
- Francine Hardaway
Good to see you francine!
- Michael Pinto
Let's feed Francine's bedroom in or something.. .
- Matt Terenzio
Ken - or have a checkbox for "chatting in thread, don't spam history, Twitter, FB, etc."
- Robert J Taylor
someone ping me when real time starts. back to work time for me.
- Karoli
Technical issues have us delayed. We'lllet you know when we relaunch via Twitter and here. Pleasestand by
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Tina let Steve know that we love the show, tech glitches and all and wouldn't have it any other way
- Michael Pinto
Tina - I won't let them go anywhere. I battened the hatches. :)
- Rob La Gesse
to me it kinda defeats the goal, the filters should handle that type of work on the receiving end
- David Stratton
Is the show still running? I can't find it, though I've found the building 43 page.
- Hilary Talbot
Yikes. I just passed through 8,000 comments a minute ago.
- Ken Sheppardson
8080 is a big one too Shep
- Matt Terenzio
Hilary: You haven't missed anything. They've had some technical difficulties that have delayed the show.
- Ken Sheppardson
@Hilary - the show hasn't started. We are waiting for de-icing, or something.
- Rob La Gesse
I would like to know if recordings will exist? so if I want I can drive home and catch the show later
- David Stratton
Oh, thanks Ken and Rob!
- Hilary Talbot
thank god for cabonite.. it just saved my budget spreadsheet - first time i have done a restore
- Aaron Dyer
Given that the realtime feed is an embed of a ustream broadcast, I'd sure think you'd be able to just watch the ustream video later.
- Ken Sheppardson
I think there is usually a re4cord of the show with Ustream, no Jerry?
- Matt Terenzio
Being stuck on the tarmac is better than circling in a holding pattern with the "fasten seat belts" sign on. That reminds me...I'll brb
- Robert J Taylor
Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for Steve to come!
- Michael Pinto
hi hil! hi hil! hi hil! hi hil! hi hil! hi hil! hi hil! hi hil!
- Amyloo
I'm handing out virtual peanuts.
- Rob La Gesse
It amazes me that something as old as the shoe is still undergoing rapid innovation
- Matt Terenzio
I think ustream only lets publishers record and that is not automatic, they need to click it them make it available, my guess is many have learned and ready to record the bootlegs, but I would rather see an official copy, like many I don't always understand SG
- David Stratton
Matt if you think shoe innovation is interesting, you'd probably like that steam engine story from yesterday :-)
- Brian Hendrickson
oh shit. iphone ustream app needs wifi. no live for amy. see you all on the recorded side.
- Amyloo
Could we get Jason C to record the show and then distribute it without permission?
- Michael Pinto
Rob AWS trying to be more enterprise friendly, http://ff.im/7fZsF though I doubt I could have the SLA modification conversation with them
- David Stratton
Well Brian I just looked at a new pair of mine and they are typical leather loafers but the soles are Nike Air. Man.
- Matt Terenzio
it's just terribly charming how #gillmorgang features these technically inspired interludes
- Brian Hendrickson
David - they need to get more USER friendly first, I think.
- Rob La Gesse
I hear Nike's cost less than $5 to make and ship here the rest is marketing
- David Stratton
This would be great marketing except we are all die-hard listeners already
- Matt Terenzio
I think steve is just waiting until there are 100 comments in the thread - you know - to determine if there is enough interest.
- Rob La Gesse
Matt yes this would definitely be a great marketing idea
- Brian Hendrickson
Rob - I agree, not everyone wants to build their empire via API or 3rd party management tools
- David Stratton
@David - and most people like to call a human for help, in my experience.
- Rob La Gesse
Matt: think of it, if there wasn't a glitch we'd all be waiting for one to occur and not give full attention. Brilliant strategy!
- Robert J Taylor
:) The Rackspace Cloud is holding up well though!
- Rob La Gesse