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Ken Sheppardson
Ken Sheppardson
Yeah, so FriendFeed real time starts to feel like IRC/chat. But honestly... have you spent any time in IRC lately? There's really no comparison.
April 9 - Comment - Share
I have again to start little bit use IRC, IRC never dies - Kristian Salonen
Try linking to an IRC conversation or doing a search. - Rolf Schewe
Agreed. - Mitch
IRC was fun about 15 years ago. - Michael McKean
The lines are starting to blur aren't they? But this is what I've always thought micro-blogging should be: static messaging. - Leo Laporte
I really can't wait until you can attach a thread to an event like, oh, say, Windows Weekly on TWiT ;-), and have that thread replace chat for that event. - Ken Sheppardson
We have a TWiT Conversations room - Leo Laporte
I agree, all this new flashy web stuff has taken what made IRC so addictive and made it dead simple to use. I'm excited. - Bwana ☠
It's Forums 2.0 - all of this is - Jesse Stay
I'd argue forums are too static... this is fluid like irc..real-time. - Bwana ☠
And by the way, I still spend a lot of time on IRC :D :) - Bwana ☠
I'm looking forward to the next "big" event like the iPhone 3.0 rollout. Picture a room like Venturebeat's coverage here in real time: http://beta.friendfeed.com/iphone-... - Ken Sheppardson
IRC? Have you seen Plurk? - Ian Dexter Marquez
Plurk? Have you seen Rejaw? - Bwana ☠
Leo: Cool. I'd seen http://beta.friendfeed.com/twit but not http://beta.friendfeed.com/twit-co.... Would be nice if there were a brain-dead simple way to post an entry there whenever you started taping a show. - Ken Sheppardson
Subscribe to http://friendfeed.com/twit-co... - I'll open a thread for each show as we record. Let's see if this does work like a permanent real-time conversation. - Leo Laporte
Bwana, I spend a lot of time on IRC as well (well, I used to) - this is Forums, made real-time. It's the merging of Forums and something like IRC - so I guess you can say both theories are right. - Jesse Stay
I guess this all depends on how much archiving FF does. - Rolf Schewe
It's pulling the best of all sorts of different forms of online conversation into one place. Convergence at it's best. - Ken Sheppardson
Ken, exactly - Jesse Stay
@Jesse, Today it's Forums 2.0, tomorrow it'll be email 2.0! - David Bausola
Great idea, just signed up! - BASEnet
David, it's forums 2.0, but it's also IRC 2.0, E-mail 2.0, and many other things. Ken is right. - Jesse Stay
Rolf brings up *the* point. Archiving. I've been bothered that FriendFeed search only goes back so far... the lack of permanence concerns me - Bwana ☠
@Jesse, Aye, but it's all looking at how we remove ourselves from email hell. - David Bausola
The problem with this that makes it not exactly IRC is that none of this is exactly open protocol. I can't open up a FriendFeed instance on my own server and have it talk with clients that communicate with that protocol. Everything is owned by FriendFeed. - Jesse Stay
another good article about the problems of email, and how i think FF will crack it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technol... - David Bausola
But Jesse, you can long poll for updates and post back via the API if you wanted to. An IRC bot wouldn't bee that hard, for example. - Ken Sheppardson
@jessse - It's not about the ownership of the data, but HOW it's used - David Bausola
I think the solution to the "where is the data going to live and who will own it" is -- Everywhere and anybody who wants to. - Ken Sheppardson
I was thinking about FF chat, contrasting it with IRC. What happens in the event of trolling in one of these real-time threads? FF is decentralized so you won't have that Channel Op power to kick/ban and blacklist people. What controls do we have? - Rolf Schewe
Rolf: You block the user. It's per reader spam filtering. - Ken Sheppardson
@Rolf, the community is the manager - David Bausola
You can moderate comments on your own threads - Bwana ☠
Oh... should an entry owner have the ability to block people from commenting on that thread? - Ken Sheppardson
@Bwana - good point - everyone gets a bespoke experience on FF - and yet get to share the best bits. - David Bausola
...or exclude users from a public room? - Ken Sheppardson
@ken you can remove people from Feeds, if you have admin - David Bausola
Is anyone still using IM? - Bwana ☠
For FriendFeed I mean - Bwana ☠
I guess each person would have to block the troll. Hmm. Anyway, it was just a thought. When the situation presents itself then we'll see what happens. - Rolf Schewe
Rolf - there's a community thing going here that regulates. I recall during the elections, a lot of people were blocked and word spread about them - Bwana ☠
@Bwana I used IM until today, when I made this http://userstyles.org/styles... - Tristan McCann
I argue it is about ownership of the data. Businesses need to own the data and have control of it to implement. There are too many legal and IP issues at risk. Yes, they can integrate with other services too, but they want their brand wrapped around this stuff on their own servers. - Jesse Stay
Oh no, not another userstyle for me to love :( - Bwana ☠
Interesting stuff. Since the chat is decentralized here we have to rethink how it is managed. - Rolf Schewe
Jesse, interesting that you're talking the business angle, I think I prefer to the user role in the case of FriendFeed - Bwana ☠
I like what Leo is doing with the conversation links to all his podcasts. - Rolf Schewe
have a watch of this; ownership of data and open ID (speaking of which - it's still missing from FF) http://beta.friendfeed.com/people-... - David Bausola
Bwana, again, all these services are providing the likes of Compuserve or AOL or Prodigy. They suck you in and you can't get out. We need an open protocol that anyone can use, anyone can own, and anyone can communicate with in or out of the network. FriendFeed doesn't provide this, nor does Twitter or Facebook or any other network. - Jesse Stay
This is the view I'd try to embed: http://beta.friendfeed.com/twit-co... - Ken Sheppardson
So the API isn't enough to get the data out? Seems like the protocol is a bit low-level - Bwana ☠
You can totally pull the content out via the API. Entries, comments, and likes are all available as XML or Jason. - Ken Sheppardson
I don't feel like my data is trapped in FriendFeed at all. Maybe I'm ignorant - Bwana ☠
Bwana not necessarily - each service has their own standard API and protocol. You have to learn a new API for every service you join now to get data out, and you're subject to rules and regulations. An open protocol puts that control in the user or developer or business owner's hands. You get to set the rules. - Jesse Stay
Now you're talking about control... that seems different than ownership to me. - Bwana ☠
Bwana FriendFeed can do whatever they want with your data. They could delete it and you'd have no control over that. They could change their TOS and own all of it and sell it to advertisers - you'd have no control over that. Your data is owned by FriendFeed and Twitter and Facebook, whether you like it or not. - Jesse Stay
Sounds like the "Walled Garden" argument. I think it is relatively open if you can put things in and take them out (link to them from the outside publicly). - Rolf Schewe
If my data were that important, I'd use the API to archive it daily. Then it belongs to me. Control is different than ownership. While the data is available, I can get it. If they shut it off, then I can't. - Bwana ☠
It's my fault if the data is that important. - Bwana ☠
AOL and Compuserve didn't allow this... - Bwana ☠
Quick, someone please post an ASCII dragon! - Walt Ruppar
Bwana, the data doesn't belong to you - it gets stored on FriendFeed first before you can archive it. FriendFeed can still do whatever they want with it. Having it on your own servers you have full control and ownership of that data when it gets posted. The community doesn't own FriendFeed. The community does own IRC. - Jesse Stay
Haha. I'm in IRC every day. :) It's where I met Akiva. - Rochelle
Jesse - IRC may be an open protocol, but you are still subject to the rules of the community. For example, some IRC networks ToS state they own your data and can report you to the authorities at any time. True FriendFeed is a proprietary technology right now, but I don't see much difference in the way they handle data. - Bwana ☠
The only way I can be sure about my data is if I host it myself. Soon as I trust someone else with it, they can do whatever they want with it. No matter if the tech is open or closed. - Bwana ☠
Bwana, yes, but I don't have the ability to own my own network on FriendFeed. I can do that with IRC. It's not open until you can do that. - Jesse Stay
And I don't think that's a huge issue Jesse. It may be for you, but for the vast majority of FriendFeed end users, the API access is more than enough. - Bwana ☠
Seriously, how many of us would run our own FriendFeed if we could? Not a lot. - Bwana ☠
Bwana, it is a huge issue - major brands won't embrace it until they can have control of that. When they have a way to have control of it all they will bring their customers and fans over to their own sites, not to FriendFeed. - Jesse Stay
Wouldn't you just end up with thousands of little FriendFeeds with small numbers of users? - Michael McKean
I doubt that. Major brands have embraced Twitter and Facebook and that data is subject to their will, but I digress. I'll agree to disagree. - Bwana ☠
I've been using IRC since 1990. I still like it, but it's a haven for nasty fights. - Kevin Elliott
now you're giving Dave Winer ideas.... - David Bausola
David, Dave Winer agrees with me. Laconi.ca does this - I've already got several major brand names very interested and looking to implement this. It's *much* more appealing than FriendFeed or Twitter to them because they get to own the community and the data that way. - Jesse Stay
friendfeed is NOTHING like IRC. For one, moderation here is distributed (only Ken can delete comments here). For two the top level node is set by the author. That's a HUGE difference. Jesse: I don't care. If companies screw me and my data they will screw themselves. My blog is on wordpress's servers, for instance. You'd have the same concerns there. - Robert Scoble
Robert, this is different than Wordpress.com. On Wordpress.com you're not part of one massive network - you technically own your data you post there, and you own your own community. On FriendFeed, Twitter, Facebook, etc. the community is all meshed together as one larger network, owned by one large brand. You don't own your community here, nor your data. - Jesse Stay
I think it's much like IRC in terms of real-time, dynamic conversation. In terms of moderation, that's where the huge difference is. But a majority of users don't care about moderations as much as they care about the dynamic nature of the conversation - Bwana ☠
no time in IRC recently, but that blinding speed is scary - Todd Jordan
If I create a private FriendFeed room, it'll be the same scenario you just claimed for Wordpress - Bwana ☠
Again, ownership of the data is not a useful concept to spend time thinking about - having control access, is. - David Bausola
Thank you David - Bwana ☠
With decentralized control we will be able to block trolls individually. The problem I see is that the archived conversation will retain those trolled comments. Won't they? - Rolf Schewe
And really, I think we're comparing Apples and Oranges here. Thinking from a business perspective and thinking from an end-user perspective. I honestly believe FriendFeed can succeed by focusing on the end-user instead of getting major brands on board. - Bwana ☠
Why use tech to block a troll when a good conversation can convert the (bad) behavior? (Remember, this is online, not the physical world...) - David Bausola
Bwana, ok, I'll give that to you, and businesses can do that, but the branding's not there, nor is their ability to control how the data is shared. They're still building around FriendFeed's brand, not their own. - Jesse Stay
David: by blocking people you ensure their behavior does not destroy the conversation. - Robert Scoble
Bwana, but it does affect the end user because I think users are more devoted to their favorite brands than they are to Twitter or FriendFeed or Facebook. - Jesse Stay
David: by blocking people you also ensure that other people get the signal that trolling is not allowed. - Robert Scoble
Robert: maybe; but laws only exist when a good design solution cant be found... - David Bausola
Yes, it will affect some end users, but will it be enough to make or break FriendFeed? - Bwana ☠
I think the reason behind trolling is more important to understand than shutting down that user input - that's where tech is useful - solving communication blockages. - David Bausola
David: one problem with ALL previous community systems is that they get destroyed by assholes. This is the first one to be resistant to assholes and spammers because of the decentralized moderation (which is very brilliant and not many people understand it). Hopefully that continues. - Robert Scoble
Bwana, if they, or Twitter, or Facebook don't adapt (Facebook is trying with Connect), yes, eventually it will make or break any of them. - Jesse Stay
Well, the entry owner can go moderate out troll comments. It's completely up to them. I'd sorta like to see a way for an entry owner to block people from commenting on a specific entry, or all entries they create... - Ken Sheppardson
@Kristan I agree with you one hundred percent. I've been running a dedicated IRC channel for the WinExtra community for years and wouldn't think of being without it. - Steven Hodson
David: I disagree. Trolls can NOT be accomodated just to "understand" them. Their behavior destroys conversations. They can continue the behavior on their own node and THAT is where we can understand them. If they stop the trolling behavior then they can be unblocked. - Robert Scoble
Without some sort of group controls for the group's creator, trolling will be perpetually archived. - Rolf Schewe
Robert: Wanton behavior always has an underlying reason; exposing that is valuable to everyone - how else are we to encourage an open environment online? I'm interested in how tech can reverse the negative impact of trolling, not just sweeping it under the rug, erm, html. - David Bausola
...even if we can block them on an individual basis. - Rolf Schewe
David: it's clear you haven't built many communities. If trolling is allowed it just destroys communities. I've seen this over and over. I won't hesitate to block people who are assholes. Life is too short. Friendfeed is fun because assholes aren't welcome here. You can be an asshole here, but you'll find many people won't follow you and you will be blocked very quickly. - Robert Scoble
Forked off a thread on entry moderation/admin tools here: http://beta.friendfeed.com/friendf... - Ken Sheppardson
I agree with Robert. IRC moderation tools handles trolls better than anything I've seen. I have no mercy for them at all. Differing opinions is one thing, but classic disruptive behavior just for kicks cannot be tolerated - it's a giant distraction - Bwana ☠
Robert: I've seen communities dissolve a troll - and it's a beautiful thing. A block is slap - maybe that's needed sometimes - but is handing out 'discipline' good for a long term relationship? - David Bausola
The fact that user A block user B isn't currently visible to any other user, is it? - Ken Sheppardson
Ken, right. If I blocked you right now it would just remove all my items from your view and all your items from my view. You would figure it out because you wouldn't be able to get to my page anymore. - Robert Scoble
In my view the beauty of FriendFeed is that you don't have to slap down trolls - because of course one person's troll is another person's maverick and you get nasty power dynamics emerging. The whole point of the FriendFeed model is that each person's 'community' is tailored to who they want to connect with without the need for slapping down. - Robin Barooah
Robin: Bingo. FF folds feeds for a bespoke experience. - David Bausola
Having said that - Robert himself is the exception that proves the rule - and fascinating because of that. Because he is connected to so many people, and he contributes so much that people value, he has become a centralizing force. - Robin Barooah
Robin: yes, and the people I've blocked have effectively been kept from destroying the community here. Because they are not visible to me anymore they have no more power to involve me in their pathetic worlds, either. That is a HUGE change over previous forums and chat room technologies. - Robert Scoble
Robert: true - but more than that, your activity and connectedness give you real power - i.e. those of use who are not superconnected hubs have to trust you to use that power wisely since you are effectively making judgements on behalf of a large number of people - many of which we never even see. - Robin Barooah
Robin: that's true, but that's always been true. I had the power to block people when I helped run Leo Laporte's chat room. I remember one time we blocked the entire country of singapore because of trolls coming from there. This stuff is really nasty and has to be dealt with. By the way, if I block everyone I'll lose my so called "power" because I will effectively cut myself out of the interesting conversations. So, there's a force that's keeping me from blocking too many people too. - Robert Scoble
If I block too many people, or I block for the wrong reasons, I'll get a nasty reputation online. So there's a lot of social pressure on someone like me to make sure I block only for the right reasons, not for the wrong ones. I listen to lots of people I don't like, for instance, but I don't block them just because they are idiotic or because they have a different point of view than I do. Even our lovely "Dawn" is not blocked. I shouldn't have blocked her before, either, but that demonstrates... - Robert Scoble
...one case where I went over the line because I was sick of her opinions and wanted her out of my view. If I did that to everyone who disagrees with me I'd end up talking to an empty room. :-) - Robert Scoble
Robert: it's not so called power - it's actual power - all power works this way to some degree. I am not accusing you of somehow being an overlord or dictator. Just saying that you have power and responsibility - which you are acknowledging. I think it's a good thing that this results from your contribution and is a fluid thing. I'm not sure how many people are aware of it though. - Robin Barooah
Robert, agree on the power of "decentralized" moderation. FF feels very close to the "blog" model to me. And the blog model has proved to scale - dare I say - infinitely. - Meryn Stol
I don't think Robert has much power in total. It's not like a persons' success in the blogosphere is dependent on Robert. FF is very much like the blogosphere, but just in a fledgling state. I do think Robert can at some times speed up someone's "rise to fame", but that's true for all prominent bloggers. - Meryn Stol
Well - Robert gets involved in a significant number of very active conversations. If he blocks someone, they get a disjointed view of that thread and can't participate so meaningfully. Also - if he jumps into a conversation it gets 'syndicated' to 30,000 other people who get to see his view and respond to it - which magnifies the effect. But agreed - it's not clear how much this affects things overall. Would be interesting to see some numbers. - Robin Barooah
As a thought experiment, not a request - I wonder what the effect of being able to see publicly the list of people who have been blocked by Robert Scoble (or anyone else for that matter), would be - thread offline here: http://beta.friendfeed.com/rbarooa... - Robin Barooah
Robin: I sure hope they never make that list public. It will just encourage bad behavior. - Robert Scoble
Meryn: actually I disagree. If just a few people block you you will be left out of many of the most interesting conversations unless you manually follow everyone I do. My "liking" behavior puts MANY people into your view. If I blocked you you wouldn't see nearly as many cool things here on friendfeed as you would before. - Robert Scoble
So people use FoaF after all? :) I thought I was the only one (or at least uncommon) with this turned on. - Meryn Stol
Meryn: I think it's on by default. I can tell that a lot of people use it. Plus, because 31,000 are following me here, I bring a lot of things into their view. - Robert Scoble
Robert: I tend to agree - I can imagine all sorts of nasty gaming and noise. However the experiment illustrates the fact that we don't know whether you are using it to suppress people who's opinions you don't like. Before continuing, let me make it clear that I have not seen you do anything that suggests you are doing this. Just that there's no way to know how you make these judgements. - Robin Barooah
Robin: again, if I do that, word will get out and my reputation will be ruined and my ability to build community here will be ruined. Lots of people will unfollow and/or block me in retaliation. So, since I don't want that to happen, I will use it judiciously and only in cases where everyone else will say "well, they had it coming." - Robert Scoble
Robert: I understand that reasoning, and I know that you value your reputation and I don't think you would misuse your position intentionally - which is part of the reason it's even possible to have this discussion with you. Indeed - perhaps I should be saying "Someone in Robert's Position" instead of "Robert" (except that I'm not sure whether there is anyone else in Robert's position!). However I am not sure whether people in general understand how severe a block from Robert actually could be. - Robin Barooah
Robert: Which means that it could take a lot before the reputation of "Someone like you" was affected. It's pretty clear that the power asymmetry is not well understood. And for many people 'blocking' someone may not seem like a big deal - just a preference if they don't like their views. - Robin Barooah
Robin: there are a few others who have mega following numbers on friendfeed and they all are very protective of their reputations too so I don't think this will be a problem. If people are improperly blocked they generally create their own fan base very quickly too. - Robert Scoble
I'm glad IRC hasn't died considering its age. It helps that it is a rather nice, rugged chatting method. - Talon Lardner
Robert: I'd like to think its that way, and when you set a good example, it helps. But it's not generally true in human affairs that those who have power or influence have to behave well in order to stay prominent. I'd like to think that FFs decentralized structure mitigates this. We're all part of the experiment. - Robin Barooah
We all know of cases where people with power and mainstream views or goods that people desire, actually gain in popularity and 'reputation' when they behave badly in public towards dissenters, and because of this such people need to make extraordinary and conscious efforts not to slip into being subtly corrupted, because their influence affects those who would police them. I don't think it's an issue to be lightly dismissed. - Robin Barooah