It's a very interesting idea, well suited to a future world of privilege-separated processes. I'm curious about the "mmap or processor cache communication to do high performance communication" part, as well as the question of serialization. At the very least, it seems like you'd want a generic message format specification that's distinct from the serialization rules, and well suited to low-overhead message serialization.
- landonf@bikemonkey.org
I've come across doors researching this in the past, but never got a handle on their implementation/api/performance characteristics.
- landonf@bikemonkey.org
When we talk of 'wealth', we don't capture the difference between a Nobel Prize Winner, a Lottery Winner, or someone who got one over on people with a tricky derivative. Does this matter?
This is sometimes done through adjectives, like nouveau rich, blue-blood wealthy, etc. But there are probably a lot more adjectives needed to describe what you are saying.
- Cristo
I am concerned that our general lack of ability to capture this concept leads to it being undervalued, which is why most of the smart people I went to college with went into finance to make those derivatives.
- Robin Barooah
Either that, or because hot girls (and guys) don't always care how you made the money, as long as you have it. ;)
- Cristo
I think that's part of the undervaluing.
- Robin Barooah
I long for the day when I'll be able to spend some of the more esoteric kinds of wealth on groceries.
- Nathaniel Thurston
Lottery money buys Gucci just as easily as Nobel Prize money does. They're probably a lot more liberal with it too. :)
- Cristo
Nathaniel: I think the way to bring that closer is to spend some of the money you do have on the esoteric things you value.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
I like to spend money on esoteric wine, but then I always drink it before I get a chance to use it to buy groceries.
- Cristo
Cristo: isn't that circular? Gucci is only desired because it's a symbol of having money.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
Robin: I've been doing that since 2005, and have none of the regular kind of money left.
- Nathaniel Thurston
"Wealth" isn't just about having money. In fact, money can impede finding and keeping true wealth. Materialism isn't what it's cracked up to be.
- Dawn
cristo: You are most fortunate - I suspect that they are in conflict for many people, which I think is what Dawn has just suggested too.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
Dawn, there's a wealthly vs rich thread around here somewhere you should hop on.
- Cristo
Wish I could, but I've got to hop back onto my job while I still have it. Ha! :)
- Dawn
“What makes all of this even worse is that it is part of a broader trend whereby the Government simply retroactively changes the law whenever it decides it does not want to abide by it. For decades, we had laws in place authorizing citizens to sue their telecommunication carriers if the telecoms allowed government spying on their communications in violation of the law, but when it was revealed that the telecoms did exactly this, the Congress simply changed the law retroactively so that it no longer applied. For decades, we had laws imposing civil and criminal liability on government officials who engaged in or authorized torture, but when it was revealed that our government did that, the Congress just retroactively changed the law to protect the torturers. And now that courts have ruled that our decades-old transparency law compels disclosure of this torture evidence, the Congress is just going to retroactively change the law -- again -- this time to empower the President to suppress that evidence anyway.”
- Anthony Citrano
I get sick of religion being a scape goat. Wars are fought over resources and whether or not religion is used as an excuse, they'd still be fought. But on the other hand, it's the truly religious people who help pick up the pieces. How many atheist groups have started hospitals, nursing homes, orphanages, soup kitchens, etc.?
- Dawn
Kiwanis were started as a group of businessmen. Was not based on religious ideals. You don't need religion to start wars (although it has certainly helped people to think that their gods are on their side) and you don't need religion to do great things either.
- Alex Scoble
I think religion as a root cause means you're not digging deep enough.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
Since atheism is simply the refutation of the claims that gods exist, there's no banner under which to practice acts of mercy. Atheists do that as individuals, not representing their "cause".
- Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)
I would go one step further and say that irrationality has caused so much evil, but then again, there are plenty of examples of great damage done to society by seemingly rational people.
- Alex Scoble
Alex, religious people give A LOT more time and money to charity than non-religious people. I don't remember the actual stats now...I'm sure you can google it.
- Dawn
Dawn: Are most charities religious organizations or not?
- Robin Barooah
Yes, most charities are religious, unless you count government charity - which is people being forced to pay and thereby hardly charitable.
- Dawn
Don't you think that could have something to do with non-religious people distrusting them, and hence not donating so much to them?
- Robin Barooah
A liberal wrote a book about this a few years back...I wish I could remember the name of it. He set out to show how much more "compassionate" the left is than the right, but to his surprise, he found that the left gives very little time and money relative to the right. Why? He concluded that secularists and those who believe in big government depend on that government to take care of people. Religious people feel it's their duty and obligation to act themselves.
- Dawn
Robin: I don't think that's a good argument. They could start their own charities if they distrusted religious groups.
- Dawn
Charitable giving with religious strings attached is sometimes worse than no giving at all. E.g. distribution of condoms and sex ed. in Africa.
- Andy Carrel
W. Andy: All the religious charities I know give to anybody of any faith (or not) without strings attached, except for the LDS Church (Mormons).
- Dawn
Dawn: I think that's a historical artifact - most of the world has been religious for a long time, so obviously more charities have a religious basis. I'm not attacking religious organizations or charities. I just think that this is a case of correlation not being the same as causation.
- Robin Barooah
@Dawn - I think Andy was referring to the fact that some religions actively prevent things that would benefit people such as distribution and education of birth control methods in Africa and that by funding their charities you would be contributing to that kind of thing (which a lot of people disagree with). It's not easy to just start your own charity in Africa.
- Fa La La La Lindsay
What would an atheist use to justify intolerance? They don't have the crutch of "the holy bible/Jesus/koran/dream/e-meter said that ${group} is bad" to hang their intolerance on.
- Andy Carrel
"Wars are fought over resources and whether or not religion is used as an excuse, they'd still be fought." - Is this true for things like the Al Quaeda jihad against the US? Curious as to what resources they are after...
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Andy: Historically I seem to recall that they've used more 'naturalistic' ideas such as fitness of the species.
- Robin Barooah
W. Andy: Okay, it's time I call bullshit. The left is just as intolerant as the right. People who don't believe in Jesus, etc., still have their gods. There are intolerant vegetarians and animal rights activists. Intolerant environmentalists. Intolerant anti-gun people who hate "red necks." And TONS of people who are intolerant of Christians...
- Dawn
Dawn: I agree with you on that last point - which is part of why I made the comment in the first place.
- Robin Barooah
Dawn: However, since when did "the right" = devout, generous religious believers with sense of personal responsibility, and "the left" = uncaring, selfish atheists who think everything is someone else's problem?
- Robin Barooah
There are plenty of religious socialists, and also plenty of right wing atheists.
- Robin Barooah
Asking the implied question from the original post significantly increased the vitriol level. Ironic for a discussion about tolerance.
- Andy Carrel
Robin: The media have largely defined what the right and the left means. And those are your words, not mine.
- Dawn
I think that it's not so much that religion has caused so much evil as dogma in general has. Once you start accepting things without question because they come as part of a package of ideas you've subscribed to then the world is filtered through those ideas and any conflicts become an issue. The more out of touch the ideas are with reality the more you have to fiercely defend them and...
more...
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Dawn: Maybe I overstated it, but you are certainly conflating left with atheist and right with religious. As to the media definition, as far as I'm concerned it's useless and I don't accept it has having any kind of authority, which is why I tend to question these things.
- Robin Barooah
Dawn's right on religious affiliation and charitable giving (http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/perspec...) but history certainly is littered with religious conflict. Religion is an artificial way to create us/them mentality. Because of that it can lead to conflict. I tend to think Swift's Gulliver's Travels is a great way to present this problem with the Big Endian and Little Endian conflict.
- AJ Kohn
Robin: All I did was mention a book and said "secularists and those who believe in big government."
- Dawn
Dawn: Ok, I stand corrected. I read the pattern of what you were saying in your 'calling bullshit' answer to Andy as associating the two, but I see now that it's possible to read your statements as independent examples.
- Robin Barooah
Again, conflict is about control of resources. Religion ushered in "civilized" societies that started respecting other people because "we're all God's creatures." If you believe the world would have less conflict without religion, you're taking a very shallow look.
- Dawn
Robin: That's what I like about you...you care about intellectual integrity.
- Dawn
It seems like tolerance or intolerance is less problematic than the practice of drawing conclusions from false premises, which ultimately results in intolerant behavior. The distinguishing factor for harmful philosophies is that they discourage stepping back and questioning core tenets, even if they're provably false and harmful. As Dawn pointed out there are plenty of other groups besides religions which display this broken behavior, although I don't think they're as pervasive.
- Andy Carrel
None of the big ones; Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, Save The Children, have religion as a basis. But anyway, this seems like a local american discussion. If you see globally, really secular countries give much more development aid (per capita) to other countries than countries with a strong religious majority/government/etc. Anyway, back to the original question of the first post: I agree.
- Thomas Bøhm
Oh and here I thought we were going to debate? Silly me. My last word on the subject: Crusades.
- AJ Kohn
Thomas: It wasn't supposed to be just a local American discussion! Thanks for adding that.
- Robin Barooah
@Dawn - still curious as to your thoughts on my previous comment in regard to wars and resources.
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Thomas: That's a myth. I hear this all the time and it's a widely believed lie that the United States doesn't give as much as other countries. But that's only looking at percentage of GNP. If you factor in all the PRIVATE giving that Americans do, we outrank all others BY FAR.
- Dawn
OH! And it ALSO doesn't count all the money the U.S. spends on distribution of aid by our military personnel and equipment!!
- Dawn
(must not enter unwinnable debate, must not enter unwinnable debate gaaaaahhh cannot help it!). Dawn, can you tell me why those countries with the highest percentage of religiousity have correspondingly the largest gap between rich and poor. From what I recall reading AND from my personal experiences in traveling the world, I've found those countries with the lowest church attendance...
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- Adam Lasnik
Dawn: I said per capita which means per individual, the only thing that makes sense as for example the EU are many countries and USA is one. And GNP is GNP. And no, according to wikipedia and other sources an average US person is not the most charitable (to people in need in other countries) in the world "BY FAR". And correct, military aid is of course not included. Not that this...
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- Thomas Bøhm
I found the comment about religion 'ushering in' civilization interesting. I've heard it said that religion was how societies kept order before we had police, and one can argue that as as concept it was phenomenally successful in doing so, which is why there are such a small number of very large ones. The problem is that when large groups from different religions meet, they essentially...
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- Robin Barooah
Hmm... I guess Dawn must have blocked me or she's just dodging my question... interesting. Oh well, I shouldn't be adding to this anyway. I always get into trouble with these conversations.
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Lindsay: I thought it was an excellent question, and I'd love to hear Dawn's take on it.
- Robin Barooah
@Robin - in regard to the policing aspect of religion and "religions must give up their individual policing function to something more universal", isn't that exactly what the US's separation of church and state was supposed to accomplish?
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Theoretically yes, however I think this is more of an inevitable progression and it seems as though legislating that has had mixed results when compared with countries where religion was never legislated out of government and so has been able to step back without so much conflict.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
I don't see any question by Lindsay, so I can't give my "take on it." I don't think any comments here have been "fanatical" as Thomas charges, but I agree with him that intolerance and ignorance is what causes conflict. I'll just add that most the greatest works of art during the Renaissance were devoted to religion.
- Dawn
Re: renaissance art - Isn't that because the church had the money to pay for it? Lindsay's question is the 17th comment down from the top.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
Adam: You've convenient left out *Eastern* Europe from your list. I personally witnessed the cultural and economic devastation that atheism wrought on Eastern Europe in the form of communism, so your argument holds no weight with me.
- Dawn
Ok, so I was right, she has blocked me... if you wouldn't mind repeating my question Robin, I'd like to know. :)
- Fa La La La Lindsay
Dawn: Communism is not a form of atheism. Most communist states were totalitarian, and so did not tolerate religion because the didn't want it usurping power from the state. This is similar to a religious state that doesn't permit any religions other than the state approved one - e.g. the Taleban in pre-invasion afghanistan.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: That's such as insult to the likes of Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo it's surprising that you of all people asked such a superficial question.
- Dawn
Robin: Atheism came before communism. The people pushing communism were atheists and demanded an atheistic state.
- Dawn
Dawn: I'm not insulting Leonardo or Michaelangelo, nor was my comment intended to be critical of religion. It's just a statement of fact that as far as I can see there weren't other institutions willing to fund artists the way the church was at that time.
- Robin Barooah
Dawn: Re: atheism - that may be true, but my point is that their 'atheism' was a political choice because the political system they were overthrowing was supported by the church. There's an association between communism and atheism - which has to do with power, but they aren't the same thing. This is analogous to saying "religious people behead people on TV". It's true that they do, and...
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- Robin Barooah
Lindsay D. blocked me. So much for tolerance from the left. ;)
- Dawn
Lindsay seems to think that you blocked her.
- Robin Barooah
Nope. Didn't block her. I don't block people I disagree with.
- Dawn
Base human failings cause more damage than "religion". Greed, lust for power and control, for instance.
- Mo Kargas
Okay, something weird is going on. I just checked and it says "You have blocked Lindsay D., so all of Lindsay D.'s posts and comments are invisible to you." I've only ever blocked one person on FF and it wasn't her. I don't even know her or ever remember reading her posts. If I had blocked her, then why could she see my posts? I don't understand what's happened here.
- Dawn
can you unblock her and put a note in the feedback room?
- Robin Barooah
from IM
yes- I was giving your feed to lindsay so that she could unblock you
- Robin Barooah
from IM
since the links to your profile would be invisible to her
- Robin Barooah
from IM
Is there some way to see if there are other people the system says that I have blocked? And how would they get that way? Does this mean my account has been hacked???
- Dawn
I'm not aware of a way of getting to a list of blocks. I'd report it in the feedback room.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
Yeah, I already unblocked her. How could there not be a list of people you've blocked??? This stinks.
- Dawn
I guess blocking is supposed to be a nuclear option.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
That's why I've only used it once. But now I'm very curious to know if there are other people that the system says I've blocked.
- Dawn
By and by nationalism is just another form of division - often it is a reaction against religion.
- AJ Kohn
Mo: good point! Religion makes us thing of higher things. That's why there is so much beauty in religious art. And to get back to that, Robin, I do think you insulted them. You essentially called them hacks, that they sold out their artistic souls for money.
- Dawn
Okay, I'm going to go now and see what I can find out about this blocking business. Bye.
- Dawn
With all due respect Dawn, I'd appreciate if you find a quote where I imply that, since I do not believe I said anything of the sort.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
BTW I didn't block Dawn, I can see all her comments... and I've only ever blocked one person during my time on FF... She, however, can't see my comments so she is the one who has blocked me. Edit - just caught up with the thread and noticed that she's unblocked now. But at least I'm not going crazy!
- Fa La La La Lindsay
That's weird. I thought blocking was supposed to be two way. Sounds like a bug to me.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
Robin: You said "Re: renaissance art - Isn't that because the church had the money to pay for it?" If that doesn't mean that the artists only created religious art because the church paid for it, then what did you mean?
- Dawn
Hello Lindsay: Regarding your question, the resource they're fighting us for is hearts and minds. They don't like that Western culture is penetrating their countries and they hope to destroy us before their own culture is lost to our dominance.
- Dawn
I mean that the best examples of art from the period are those associated with the church because the church had great resources to devote to art. I'm not suggesting that Michaelangelo was not religious or that he did it only for the money. I'm suggesting that if they church hadn't been able to support it, we might never have known about him. Similarly there could have been many other great artists who were not moved to paint religious works that we don't know about because they were not sponsored.
- Robin Barooah
from IM
There could be another Michaelangelo alive today, but since there are no Cistene chapels being built, we will never know.
- Robin Barooah
The resource is hearts and minds? Essentially, what you believe and feel, is that the accurate translation? And "our dominance"? So are we in some sort of race for the 'right' way to think about things? This ... seems to be the problem does it not?
- AJ Kohn
Doesn't organized religion attempt to win people's hearts and minds?
- Robin Barooah
from IM
Robin, I'd say hearts only, because too often the mind (reason) must be overcome.
- LogEx
LE: I take your point, but I am not aware of any groups, religious or otherwise, that have a particularly valid claim to possessing a higher degree of reason. Individuals maybe but groups, I am not so sure.
- Robin Barooah
That's probably true, people tend to rally around beliefs and charismatic people, rather than the blandness of facts.
- LogEx
Since stationary robots with arms are quite well developed these days, it doesn't seem very long before the entire warehouse can be automated.
- Robin Barooah
Glaser is a well-known graphic artist who came up with (among other things) the "I [heart] New York" design. (I mention this because I knew the name, but nothing about him.) This is an interesting list.
- Michael Nielsen
"You have spent some time with this person, either you have a drink or go for dinner or you go to a ball game. It doesn’t matter very much but at the end of that time you observe whether you are more energised or less energised. Whether you are tired or whether you are exhilarated. If you are more tired then you have been poisoned. If you have more energy you have been nourished. The test is almost infallible and I suggest that you use it for the rest of your life. "
- Steve Crossan
Milton Glaser spoke at TED 11. I have a hat he designed. One slide in his presentation had "the best marketing" he'd recently seen. It was a wooden sign painted white. Black letters announced Reliable Dutchman Auto Repair. We all laughed at the simplicity of the message, but Glaser pointed out that an Italian mechanic might need a different pitch.
- bill
Basically a 'sus' law for photographers. They say you have to be linked to a terrorist group in order to be convicted, but before that can be established you can be arrested while they investigate you, so it's obviously prone to misuse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Robin Barooah
"In the first year of Washington's administration, Adams became deeply involved in a month-long Senate controversy over what the official title of the President would be. Adams favored grandiose titles such as "His Majesty the President" or "His High Mightiness" over the simple "President of the United States" that eventually won the debate."
I'm wondering why there was such an intense backlash against Amazon in particular given that there are so many other organizations doing bad things. Nobody's tried to whip up a google bomb against a bank as far as I've seen. Is it because Amazon is a soft target - i.e. they have a good reputation that can easily be affected? Why this sudden rush...
"Walking serves as a bridge between other humans and other animals. Humans tend to walk between 2 and 5 miles per hour -- an average of around 3 miles per hour. Dogs walk at speeds between 2 and 4 miles per hour. Camels walk an average speed of 3 miles per hour. Horses and mules, when walking, operate at speeds of 3 to 4 miles per hour. Elephant walk at 4 miles per hour. The old friendships between humans and some animals partly depend on a shared walking speed. A walking pace is the speed of community."
- sara
from Bookmarklet
Those numbers of animals killed are pretty staggering, almost difficult to believe. I assume the million animals a day is including insects.
- Jonathan Le Plastrier
Written by a current Professor at MIT, and Former Chief Economist at the IMF (last year, not in the 70s). Not just some conspiracy theorist. Is this interesting to anyone, or is it just old news and everyone has simply moved on?
- Robin Barooah
from Bookmarklet
seconds before it was about to be eaten by the delete-droid, landon saves this posting with a 'like'!
- Robin Barooah
"Not surprisingly, Wall Street ran with these opportunities. From 1973 to 1985, the financial sector never earned more than 16 percent of domestic corporate profits. In 1986, that figure reached 19 percent. In the 1990s, it oscillated between 21 percent and 30 percent, higher than it had ever been in the postwar period. This decade, it reached 41 percent." Wow.
- Jonathan Le Plastrier
this is why we can't have nice things
- Robin Barooah
My hope is that even though this resembles the processes that have repeated elsewhere, it's actually the endpoint of an even bigger cycle - the lost of confidence in the values that led us here may never be recovered and we might have to believe in something else before we can build a positive future. We might actually transcend some of our current limitations as a result - although overcoming what we have conditioned ourselves into may be painful.
- Robin Barooah
"Joe Clark, a corporate lawyer who sat near the president at the basketball game, described the experience as “surreal.” “I couldn’t believe that he was so accessible that I could literally shake his hand and heckle him about needing to suit up because his team was losing,” Mr. Clark said."
- Jonathan Le Plastrier
from Bookmarklet
Sightings of the same figure in different places around the city, and in public office... can't people see what this means?
- Gaius Baltar
"''I think we will look back in 10 years' time and say we should not have done this but we did because we forgot the lessons of the past, and that that which is true in the 1930's is true in 2010,'' said Senator Byron L. Dorgan, Democrat of North Dakota."
- Robin Barooah
from Bookmarklet
Wow, great quotes from Dorgan and Wellstone. They definitely get to say 'told you so'.
- Casey Muller
Nice that this archival stuff isn't behind a paywall anymore.
- Jonathan Le Plastrier
I was thinking of writing a book called "why are we so stupid?" and within a few minutes of research, this was one of the first things that I ran across. It highlights a lot of the problem.
- Robin Barooah
from Bookmarklet
I would say that every corporation I have worked for has ultimately destroyed itself via the processes (even though they are all still in business) that Mr Schwartz describes here.
- Robin Barooah
And his explanation about what to do is also the only answer I have so far encountered: set a moral example, no matter how difficult - and if you are in a place where it morality is suppressed - walk to somewhere where it is not.
- Robin Barooah
"The premise is simple: Internet Explorer 6 is antiquated, doesn’t support key web standards, and should be phased out. This isn’t about being anti-Microsoft, it’s about Microsoft’s lack of development in the browser market. With IE7/8 not available for Windows 2000, IE6 accounts for up to 20% of web usage, primarily via business users. Clients pressure designers to ‘force’ sites to...
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- Shey, Jamaican of FF
"My fear is that these technologies are infantilizing the brain into the state of small children who are attracted by buzzing noises and bright lights, who have a small attention span and who live for the moment."
- Ana
from Bookmarklet
I've just added a web based meditation timer to the site. It's quick to set up and gives visual feedback about the time remaining that is hopefully not distracting if you need to peek. The timer will time a preparation period and a main meditation time. The bell sounds it uses are chosen to sound good on both laptop speakers and larger amplifiers. If it sounds distorted, try turning the volume down a little - I found I needed to do this with one old laptop I tried it on. Please let me know how you find the timer, whether it works for you or not, or if there's something you need that it doesn't do. Click here for the timer.
- Robin Barooah
The discovery of neuroplasticity, that our thoughts can change the structure and function of our brains, even into old age, is the most important breakthrough in our understanding of the brain in four hundred years. Dr. Norman Doidge introduces principles we can all use to overcome brain limitations and explores the profound brain implications of the changing brain in an immensely moving book that will permanently alter the way we look at human possibility and human nature.
- Gregory Lent
from Bookmarklet
How has this not been obvious all along? Where was the evidence that the brain was somehow 'fixed'?
- Robin Barooah
what is fixed is the insistence of neuroscience that consciousness is produced by meat ... by the brain ... and neuroplasticity is going to be the crack in their model that will flip it, or at least allow a wider hypothesis ..
- Gregory Lent
Gregory: Neuroplasticity is in no way inconsistent with a "naturalistic" worldview.
- Meryn Stol
I can also highly recommend "The Neuroscience of Psychotherapy" and "The Neuroscience of Human Relationships", both by Louis Cozolino.
- Meryn Stol
what does "naturalistic" mean? and does that relate to the current neuroscience model that consciousness is the creation of the brain?
- Gregory Lent
Gregory: sorry, I don't know if "naturalistic" is the correct term for saying non-dualistic. (just looked it up...) I think that I mean something like "emergent materialism" as opposed to Dualism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... .
- Meryn Stol
My point is that we don't need a dualistic worldview to allow for neuroplasticity. If you just take a systems view, there are an insane number of interconnected pieces (for example: neurons), and some of these pieces can be rearranged or connected to each other differently in "response" to an earlier system state. I probably don't explain it well, but you probably know what I'm saying. :)
- Meryn Stol
But then, you probably also believe in free will... And that doesn't really fit with materialism either. I also like to believe in free will in daily affairs, though I don't believe in it in the strict sense.
- Meryn Stol
no free will, none at all .. but that is a hard swallow for the masters of the universe ... the thing about neuroplasticity, and its implications, is that if a non-physical action like meditation can change physical structure, how can that be explained from the viewpoint that the physical structure creates the consciousness? my view, consciousness is primary, matter is a distillation or condensation of consciousness ..
- Gregory Lent
and none of these questions, or the ones on the great wiki page, are needed to be asked by yogis, not (just) because of their direct experience, but because they use a much much much more subtle language (sanskrit, in essence) for mind, awareness, consciousness, things that in english are so clunky in meaning, so the philosophical discussions, and the science, are so clunky, and asking the wrong questions ..
- Gregory Lent
BTW Gregory, I'm very open to alternative interpretations of reality, but I do think it's important to understand the full extend what current scientific thinking can explain, or find reasonable hypotheses for, *including* the benefits of meditation, or more general - the practice of mindfulness.
- Meryn Stol
but that physical correlate is effect, not cause, that is my point, actually .. no doubt about correlation
- Gregory Lent
Gregory: How do you know that's an effect? And an effect of what? The idea of neuroscientists is that a brain simply can get in such a state... It doesn't need an external (i.e. non-physical) cause. It happens. People do it. People meditate... just like they pray, or talk, or laugh, or cry.
- Meryn Stol
It could very well be - as you state - that eastern traditions have much better vocabulary to describe mental states... Which would give neuroscientists many more subtilities to research. I'm far from an expert on these matters... I might be able to benefit from meditation (or prayer) myself. I just haven't come around to it. I've got my own "homegrown" "spiritual" practice.
- Meryn Stol
Uh, meditation is physical - just like any other action.
- Tim Tyler
tim tyler, do you mean it has a physical correlate in the brain that is measurable? yes .... but so far experiences and thoughts have not been called physical ..... except by "law of attraction" proponents ... not disagreeing, trying to understand what your laconic comment means
- Gregory Lent
As far as I understand it, the whole point of non-dualism is that there is no distinction between the physical and non-physical. The term 'correlate' is misleading (to say the least). Everything that can be experienced has a physical 'correlate' because the experience IS the physical manifestation, however subtle. The thoughts don't cause the physical consequences, and the brain doesn't 'cause' the thoughts. They are the same thing looked at from two different (and only partial) perspectives.
- Robin Barooah
It seems to me that confusion arises because of the issue of qualia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... . Personally, I have a simplistic understanding of this: either the whole universe is an automaton without qualia, or qualia is a basic property of the universe. Since I experience the universe, and so it would be absurd for me to personally deny Qualia, I conclude that the whole universe 'has' Qualia - i.e., is actually experiencing itself. The upanishads seem to be saying this, at the very least.
- Robin Barooah
do you think the brain creates, makes, consciousness?
- Gregory Lent
Assuming you are asking me: No, certainly not. I thought I just said that :-)
- Robin Barooah
neuroscientists do .. my mission is to expand their thinking, but they resist mightily
- Gregory Lent
Hmm.. I personally know a few who don't. However you have picked a tough mission. In order to understand non-duality in a way that is compatible with science, you have to expand your science to include the realm of private experience. Your challenge then, is to find a way to expand the operational definition of scientific method in this way without simultaneously enabling charlatanism.
- Robin Barooah
wonder how your friends are perceived by their colleagues ..
- Gregory Lent
agree with your expand the paradigm approach, but that does not go down lightly with the scientists-types i encountered on friendfeed, so many of them blocked me, called me a woo-meister, insisted there is no there there, etc ... i quit trying
- Gregory Lent
Well, a couple of those friends probably don't discuss it with their colleagues. Another already has a reputation for speaking from thee edges of science, but doesn't focus on this in particular.
- Robin Barooah
Well, the challenge is to find a way of expanding the paradigm just enough to answer this one question rather than enabling a whole class of other untestable explanations - otherwise it ceases to be science whether or not it's true.
- Robin Barooah
science ... good for the material universe only .. and even then, the future will show a lot of distortion, about on par with the way we look at medieval dentists
- Gregory Lent
"And while venture capital has been the focus in past years, the reality of the market is that companies must gain the attention of customers." -- I'm glad to see this, I think it's a very healthy shift.
- landonf@bikemonkey.org