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Leo Laporte
OK @jason has convinced me. I've deleted my personal Facebook account. I will delete the rest tomorrow during TWiG… http://www.google.com/buzz...
I think that's a mistake - it means you can't talk reliably about Facebook from here on out without bias. - Jesse Stay
BTW, half of what Jason said was inaccurate - he even called Facebook's platform Facebook Connect, which is no longer in existence. I got a sense that Jason didn't fully understand Facebook from his latest post. - Jesse Stay
The hammer has dropped! - Micah
this may get interesting - MiniMage
Jesse, your first comment is incorrect. Removing his account from Facebook is no more an indication of bias than having an account would be. - Louis Gray
++Louis. - Micah
Louis, how can you criticize or advise people about Facebook if you don't have a Facebook account? - Jesse Stay
WOW "the" Leo Laporte has promised to delete his Facebook account tomorrow on TWiG ~ fuuuuuck me - sofarsoShawn from iPhone
I'm on the fence, and leaning towards your decision. - Fleagle
What's sad about this is that so many people will do it just because Leo did it, without thinking of why they did it. I respect you a lot Leo, but the ramifications of this are very big. - Jesse Stay
Link to case made by @jason ? - Thomas Page
I'd point out everything wrong in Jason's post but I don't think the right people are really listening. Those with the real influence aren't reading those posts. - Jesse Stay
Well then write a blog post about it. - Not Me
Jimminy, I'm not sure the people that I'm trying to influence would even read it, or care. I know Jason C. won't read it - Jesse Stay
Who are you trying to influence? - Louis Gray
Louis, I already mentioned one name - I'm trying to influence those that deleted their Facebook accounts, and particularly those that share Jason's viewpoint. - Jesse Stay
Leo would read it, Jesse. - Ken Sheppardson
Leo donated $100 to the Diaspora project, an open FB alternative. You can too. http://www.google.com/buzz... - Louis Gray
Well, to start, I hope Leo read these 3 articles: http://staynalive.com/article..., http://staynalive.com/article..., and http://staynalive.com/article... - I'll see about writing a response to Calacanis. I don't like taking bait. - Jesse Stay
Re. "Louis, how can you criticize or advise people..." Jesse, does an automotive critic have to own every vehicle they review? No. Perhaps knowledge, wisdom and sound advice that proceeds from it is not always predicated on 'owning' an asset. - Micah
Micah, they have to use them to critique - I will take the advice of an owner over a critic, any day though. - Jesse Stay
Owners-to-be say they value fuel economy, then buy based on how many cup holders it has. - Micah
Jesse, would you take advice from a former owner? - Not Me
Jimminy, if new features had been added since to improve the service, no - that's what will happen with Facebook - Jesse Stay
Here's my article - feel free to tip @techmeme if you want others to see it: http://staynalive.com/article... - Jesse Stay
Ok, but has anything changed, since Leo deleted his account? - Not Me
I'm done arguing about this - I'm hoping that's my last post trying to defend all this. I think all the reactions we're seeing by high profiles are ridiculous, and unfair. It makes no sense to me. As one who really respects him, I really think Leo is making a mistake here - I wish he'd reconsider. - Jesse Stay
I have an idea: Why don't we all take a step back and realize that all we're talking about here is a Facebook account. Something that hardly competes with water for sustainability of life. - Fleagle
Their reactions are ridiculous in your opinion - and that's fine. I personally hope he *doesn't* reconsider - it'll take high-profile folks bailing to see any really change in how carefully FB treats the information it has on subscribers. - Thomas
Quit that, Fleagle - we all know that it's Twitter that competes with water for sustaining life... - Thomas
I doubt Thomas even read my article (and hence my point above in why I should write it) - Jesse Stay
Wait, let me correct that: we all know that it's FriendFeed that competes with water for sustaining life... - Thomas
I did read it, and don't agree with you. Shocking that you don't have 100% of us in your court... - Thomas
Thomas, I'd appreciate more constructive comments - what don't you agree with and why? - Jesse Stay
For one, I don't agree with your privacy debate issue. Majority of FB users only seem to debate policy changes when UI is involved. The small number of folks who *do* complain often seem to be swimming against the tide simply because they're the only ones who care about the topic. It's also funny that the standard refrain I used to hear when complaining about FB was "well, you can always delete the account", and now that people *are* deleting the account I'm hearing "wait, why are you going?" - Thomas
Thomas, so you're admitting you're in the minority? - Jesse Stay
Of 400+ million users? Yes. The tech community percentage is probably higher... - Thomas
The rest don't know what the privacy ramifications are to them - yet... - Thomas
Thomas, okay, then we are in agreement - Jesse Stay
When ever the big names fight about social media, I really get a chuckle on. Think of the aviation industry. The Wright Brothers did it way back in December 17, 1903. It's now over 100 years and we are still gasping at the massive A330 etc. They talk like RIGHT NOW is where it's at. This is the most important thing in the history of all man-kind... Please, social media is 10 years old. We've just gone 852 feet. Perspective is a wonderful thing. We're fighting about the shapes of our moustaches and the stiffness of our collars. If social media wants to be a big boy and last, it has to realise that it can't just remain in the lap of the hipsters. Facebook isn't trying to take over the world, it's trying to be a corporation. The REAL problem is we have let computers and the internet be clouded by fear and waving our hands in mystery. Most privacy issues are solved with simple explanation. People aren't fearful, they just want information. Jason Calacanis could be the most insightful man in social media... or he could just be another Ernest Archdeacon. - Johnny
That the tech community knows the true problems with Facebook? - Thomas
Thomas, no, that you're in the minority - Jesse Stay
Yes. We're in the minority of 400+ million users in that we realize where the FB privacy changes are leading. That more and more of our info that was once considered private in FB is being sold to corporate partners. That FB is no longer a place to frequent. Yes, we're in that minority... - Thomas
I'm done arguing, fun as this is. - Thomas
Thomas, me too, but I keep saying that :-) - Jesse Stay
lol - Thomas
Let's agree to disagree, then :) - Thomas
I agree with you decision, Leo. However, I keep a dummy one for professional reasons.Just to know whats going on there. - Jorge Ortiz
Go Fleagle! That is the best comment yet! - Skyler Call from fftogo
@leolaporte come to Friendfeed again. much more dynamic than Buzz - Courtney Engle
@Jorge, yes I keep a dummy account too (more than once actually), so that I can keep up with Facebook's shenanigans and also see how changes in my account are reflected to friends, friends-of-friends, beyond-FoaF-Facebook users, and the public at large. There are just too many permutations for people to really understand what happens with their personal information. - Tinfoil 2.0
+1 Thomas for holding up the fort against Jesse's Kool-Aid drinking...man, he really is invested...in YOUR and others' continuing to use Facebook... Which is just a little creepy in itself, given that he develops for the platform. The whole Facebook thing has gotten a little creepy, from Paul's post/thread a few days ago on down. - Alex Schleber
Fleagle, as far as Zuck is concerned, he seems hell-bent on making FB something that comes very close to "compet[ing] with water for sustainability of life" :) Good one though. +1. - Alex Schleber
So Jesse's "Thomas, so you're admitting you're in the minority?" is really freaking me out. As if that has anything to do with anything. I am very tempted to bring in my reference from last week :) PLEASE, Jesse, agree with me once and for all that neither the number of people, or the impressiveness or powerfulness of of anything that Facebook ships or does, has ANYTHING to do with this debate. - Alex Schleber
...You've already called me and others paranoid (thank you for that), and now you're continuing along this line of "all other FB users are happy, or won't leave, or something..." implying that we must be...well...crazy. Please keep in mind that it was Facebook that has been called the "Walled Garden" (up to now)...so are the crazies on the inside or on the outside :) I VOTE MINORITY REPORT! - Alex Schleber
OK, Jesse, I just read the 1st quarter of your post, and already you're getting into this ridiculous claim that Zuck was called a Nazi, or that you were called names. Neither of which are true. I've made my case for what I said before, and won't repeat it here. The fact is, the only ad hominem that I can see so far has come FROM YOU, calling us paranoid, which, as I said before is a DSM-IV diagnosable disorder criterion. So again, thanks for that. Will continue reading your post now, but this is NOT a good start... - Alex Schleber
BTW, I agree on your take that calling Zuck Asperger's is offensive and wrong, and I've tweeted Jason about this, not sure if he'll see it of course. In fact, if anything Zuck is showing more from the Anti-Social PD spectrum (as in not minding if others get hurt), which is NOT to be confused with not having social skills. - Alex Schleber
Finished Jesse's post, looks like we'll never agree, which is fine. +1 for Manielse's response on it: "To this 'so-called expert', Facebook crossed unnecessary boundaries." EXACTLY, much of this is in fact quite needless, they already internally had nearly everything on you they ever really needed to target ads against. OK, maybe add a few more "Likes". - Alex Schleber
People still shop at Walmart... - Johnny
Alex, I'm done arguing, and I wasn't going to name names, but specifically, it was in Paul's post, and it was you who said, "Chris/Darren, just because "they did it in a VERY impressive and powerful way" doesn't mean we all have to like it. The same could be said e.g. for the Nazi's taking over Germany. - Alex Schleber": http://friendfeed.com/paul... - Jesse Stay
BTW, Jesse, I think you'll excuse us if we'd still like to be experts on our own privacy. Just because you code for them or have worked with devs who do, doesn't mean you (or they) have any additional authority over what is essentially an issue of the "body politic". - Alex Schleber
Alex, you are welcome to do as you please. You can be an expert on whatever you like. - Jesse Stay
Jesse hasn't answered the question from Blu T above about his vesting schedule. - Mr. Gunn
I blocked Blu the other day (along with 2 other of Cristo's profiles) so I can't see what he says - Cristo has been a troll for quite awhile here. I like the real Chris White, but not sure I like the personas he plays on FriendFeed. - Jesse Stay
Blu, he blocked me too for being pseudonymous, maybe he thinks I'm you. O_o - Tinfoil 2.0 from iPhone
Our data and the contributions made to Wikipedia which are also being raped with our privacy are in the continued gift of audiences/ users. Facebook's only asset is the inconvenience of migrating to alternative places to communicate, which Google will inevitably now improve. I believe Facebook's strategy is flawed in it's attempt to monetize an ad model rather than accept it has merely invented a new form of ubiquitious communication medium which we may have to accept is chargeable. FB's approach is like BT deciding to impregnate our telephone calls with ads based on what we discuss on the phone. I'm impressed though that the FT is challenging this as most US publishers are sitting on their hands in case FB gets away with it and they need the relationship. Facebook will inevitably IPO or more likely sell to Microsoft within months (probably to coincide with the ramping movie hype) and their momentum is overwhelming. In my opinion though, it is another Emporer's new clothes model wherein the format is inelegant and therefore dumbs down any serious brand advertisers and for the social version of adsense, I think advertisers will eventually realise noone clicks on the ads at any serious level. On an 80:20 rule, FB is the 80% and the 20% is outside the platform... this will become increasingly apparent. Or FB is a Chris Anderson 'Long Tail' and 'The Head' hasn't properly materialised online yet... (Trad media...) - Jan Simmonds
i also deleted my facebook leo - Richard Thomson
Jesse, thanks for bringing my original quote out, because anyone who can read and parse a sentence can tell that I was IN NO WAY calling Zuckerberg a Nazi. You can hear what you want from it, but that's not going to change the fact that it was directed toward the "very impressive and powerful" phrase. See, the problem is that you and others worshiping at Zuck's feet are somehow awestruck by the 400-500M users thing, while I just don't care. Mass appeal, etc. is never an argument for anything. - Alex Schleber
Me, I'm just waiting for the shark to come out so that Facebook can jump it... - Dennis Jernberg
If FB really gave a hoot and had the stones to put it to a straight per user "vote" on their next login, here's how: 1) I want everything to be completely private, no one but my friends sees nothing. 2) I want everything to be completely open. 3) I want to muddle through with the detailed settings somewhere in the middle,which will be my responsibiliy. --- And then arrange people's detail settings accordingly. My bet would be on about 80% opting for private. But of course FB is not going to do that. That would be giving too much control/mastery back to the users... - Alex Schleber
Didn't they do that in November? I remember being prompted about my settings - Johnny
You guys still going at it? <bangs head on wall> - Chris Myles
The aspect that I really don't get is: many people want or need privacy, it's a fundamental human right. It's not secrecy (necessarily), it's having the full range of choices and control over what you share, with whom, and when. Why does FB insist on removing choices and coercing (through obtuse UI and auto-opt-in) more openness? They can still sell ads to private interests. No one has ever given a real answer on why the choices went away and couldn't be retained for those who wanted them. Tyranny by the majority (or by the bureaucracy) isn't acceptable. - Tinfoil 2.0
Privacy advocates don't insist that publicity-seekers shut up - WHY do publicity advocates insist that privacy-seekers lose their choices and controls? - Tinfoil 2.0
There is irony in criticizing Facebook on FriendFeed, and advocating Leo switch to FriendFeed, when FriendFeed is a wholly owned Facebook property, and was designed by some of the people who are making the critical decisions about Facebook's current direction :) Since I've always found Facebook and Zuckerberg creepy I do delight in their current turmoil. Zuckerberg does have the all the vibes of a reincarnation of Bill Gates. Its unfortunate Paul and Brett ended up there, too much inertia there. - Ed Millard
+1 LogEx. Ed, I agree on both counts. To think what great stuff Paul & Brett could have created unencumbered by Zuck's unwieldy platform and dubious ambitions. - Alex Schleber
Paul or Brett could probably do many of the same things they are doing at FB now on FF and everyone would appreciate the cool parts and there would have been less privacy backlash. I always thought Facebook should have turned FF in to their laboratory, linked it to Facebook but made it the place where they did all their bleeding edge stuff and that would have saved them the misery of trying to turn a barge with 400 million people on it who want to go straight. Too much antipathy to Zuckerberg and FB. - Ed Millard
Ed, as long as FriendFeed's Privacy Policy (http://friendfeed.com/about...) retains its "Last updated: September 26, 2008", we're all good here, regardless of ownership. Like Google and Twitter and most every social site except for FB, FriendFeed allows pseudonyms, multiple accounts, totally private accounts, and all of the other privacy goodness people may want while still sharing with whomever they choose. The one thing Facebook now has that no one else does is a virtual monopoly on the regular people social graph. - Tinfoil 2.0
Did FB actually update THEIR privacy policy when they made all the recent changes or did they just do them?? :) - Ed Millard
Its still ironic, I wager if FB hadn't bought FriendFeed Paul and Brett might have done all the same things on FF they are doing at FB that has everyone so upset. Would everyone here have been as upset as people on FB are, since FF was pretty public from the get go? - Ed Millard
if FF followed suit with FB's current course, i would drop this place like a hot rock. - Big Joe Silence
I sure wish I knew how much of the recent changes are Paul and Brett doing the next logical evolution of social networks, and how much is Zuckerberg trying to wring more revenue out of FB. One thing about Zuckerberg is he's gotten where he is and stayed solvent by doing what he thought he had to do to wring enough revenue out of FB to stay afloat, some of which were creepy but he also didn't end up as another broke dot com with no revenue. - Ed Millard
The stuff they are doing to Zynga feels like pure Zuckerberg squeezing revenue to keep his valuation up. - Ed Millard
Leo, try "Lockdown or Death for your FaceBook Profile: An Advanced User Guide to Social Networking Privacy" [Jason Perlow, ZD Net - 5/5/10] http://ff.im/k5zYY If you’re sick and tired of FaceBook’s continual encroachment on your privacy, here’s how to lock it down like a SuperMax prison or give it the Death Penalty. -- This is a VERY LONG method. Kind of cute (Using Facebook fan pages for main contacts & LinkedIn for business contacts). Keep in mind the author previously had his Facebook account hacked. - Mitchell Tsai
You mean the same Zynga that basically copied the idea for Farmville from FarmTown http://www.allfacebook.com/2009... and admitted basically to ripping people off http://markpincus.typepad.com/markpin... What a strange hero to defend... - Johnny
Don't think I actually defended Zynga Johnny. I was just observing that part of this saga felt like Zuck doing whatever it take to keep his revenue stream going. That is his one defining executive skill. I'll admit I have a soft spot in my heart for Brian Reynolds who is a lead designer at Zynga now I think, only because he designed Alpha Centauri which was the best version of Civilization ever. He does have some talent... Never actually played a Zynga game on Facebook. - Ed Millard
BTW, Jesse can now add this great read to his list of "insults": What Facebook and BP have in common - http://trueslant.com/johnmcq... - Alex Schleber
One thing it's important to note comparing Google to Facebook in all this is Google has a river of money from search which funds most of their other endeavors and allows Google to stay on their moral high ground in social. Zuckerberg has had to wring money out of Facebook to stay alive and that has no doubt led to many of the dubious ethical decisions. - Ed Millard
Chris Myles, Alex is - I'm done arguing. I'm not sure how, but I think I've offended him somehow. Other than quoting him in response above, I'm not sure I've ever targeted Alex specifically. It's really killing my desire to be part of the conversation though. - Jesse Stay
...ah yes, the backlash... - .LAG liked that
Eh, @Ed, maybe read those pre-release chapters of "Inside Facebook" about the "Temptation of St. Zuckerberg"..the guy has had money waved in his face from 6 months on. Microsoft got their foot in the door with serious $ (which is a bit scary in the background of all of this), so cry me a river about his start-up woes. He could have cashed out long, long ago, but persists maniacally because apparently he's afraid that he'll "never steal...I mean...HAVE an idea this great ever again." - Alex Schleber
Ed, BTW completely agree on your Friendfeed as test-bed after the buy-out point. - Alex Schleber
Alex, not sure anyone outside of him knows his motivation for sticking with it. Different founders have different goals. Some just want to cash out at the first opportunity, others believe in their companies and stick with them for decades. Call me old fashioned but I thought it used to be a positive when people built companies to last and stuck with them. In my book a puppy dies every time a founder sells out for a quick buck to someone who promptly kills their company. - Ed Millard
.... like FriendFeed.... If Micosoft had bought out FB it would have been dead in a year and Zuck knows that. Microsoft is anticool and would have been a reverse viral influence on FB, kind of like News Corp was to Myspace. - Ed Millard
They do use FriendFeed as a testbed. They have been using it for Next Gen OAUTH http://techcrunch.com/2009... - Johnny
That OAuth stuff is arcane internals tech. I was talking more like they should have rolled out all their recent new features on FriendFeed first and the backlash would have been limited instead of life threatening to FB as now appears to be the case. If it worked for the smaller audience on FF, and after fixing the worst of the complaints, then they could have rolled it out to all FB. FF could have become the bleeding edge face of FB and a spiritual home for early adopters, - Ed Millard
The stuff FB is doing with Pandora among other things does have awesome potential they should have just taken it slower and got more feedback from the Louis Gray's and Leo's of the world before inflicting it on grandma and the other 400 million people most of whom aren't early adopters. - Ed Millard