It's 3 a.m. and I'm going to bed. I wonder what kind of discussion will be here in the morning (deep breath). - Louis Gray

I left a comment over on this very thoughtful post. - Robert Scoble

It's 5am here and that's why I'm not doing a post on it. :-) Good night/morning - Jesse Stay

Jesse, that just means you woke up right :) That's what I was doing at 5AM. And yes, I am doing a post on this, sort of. - Rob Diana

Although I respect the privacy of your personal decision on Prop 8, This piece left me wondering what your take-away message was intended to be. - Stephen Foskett

Stephen, this doesn't have the typical, intro/message/conclusion format. What I wanted to do was undo some misconceptions, and illustrate the internal battle that's faced when there are multiple belief systems tugging on a single individual. I think what this post does is offer a safe place to talk and discuss a sensitive issue. - Louis Gray

There is now a really good discussion going on in the blog comments. Everyone is staying very level-headed so far. - Rob Diana

A solid follow-on from Rob Diana here on Filters and Belief Systems. http://www.louisgray.com/live... - Louis Gray

Kudos for everyone to (so far) having a very reasonable discussion on this very volatile issue - reading reasonable, smart people discussing important issues is a big part of why I follow you guys/gals. - Bill Sanders

Thanks Louis. I do not like talking politics or religion, but I figured that the discussion of filtering was appropriate. - Rob Diana

LG, thank you for this post. Because of you and Jesse, I have a better understanding of the LDS and your beliefs. You are one of the rare people who can set and keep an amicable tone with such a hot topic... and that's why you are a true leader. The more I get to know you, the more and more I respect you. :) - Mona Nomura

Prop. 8 is a pretty hot topic in the bars around SLC right now. There's a lot of resentment against the LDS church right now. Even the people who agree with the goal of Prop. 8 are pretty ticked off. Win or lose I think the LDS church has seriously harmed their relationship with the non-LDS population in and around SLC. - Kevin D. White

Thanks for sharing your struggle, Louis. - cjmart

I could have used this type of discussion a few years back while in grad school. This is a perfect illustration of cognitive dissonance, a theory that had been difficult for me to grasp. I hope the conversation continues. - Sally Robinson

Isn't cognitive dissonance where one rationalizes something within their beliefs because another thing conflicts with it? I'm not sure Louis is rationalizing his beliefs here. In fact, he's not stating what his final decision is. The LDS church has said members can choose as they please without repurcussion, as have they taught us to be loving and tolerant of people who are gay. Not sure if this is necessarily cognitive dissonance. I don't think Louis is rationalizing any beliefs here. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

A good writer is one who can make both sides of the issue feel like he's siding with them. :-) This was an excellent article. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

Great post Louis. It's rare to find such an honest and thoughtful explanation of one's thinking. I'm curious if you've ever pondered what your response would be if the Church were to take a more personally difficult stance? (such as declaring some race to be sub-human, or something like that) - Paul Buchheit

Great post, Louis. You described the struggle well. It's been a hard place to be, between my faith and my loved ones. I think that government is not the place to deal with this issue. I voted no. I hope others come to this same conclusion. - Lisa L. Seifert

I don't know much about the LDS church, but reading Louis's blog post helped to give me some insight at least on his own personal level. As a gay man would eventually like to discover and enjoy the benefits of marriage, I appreciate your candor. - Derrick

Derrick, Lisa, Jesse, Paul and others, thanks for this. I had hoped to set up a platform for discussion and explain the inner turmoil that is there, and it looks like that has worked. Paul, it's not uncommon for my politics to conflict with some widely-held church beliefs. I believe in the Right to Choose, and the church is typically pro-life for example. That said, the church is very loving, and it would be mind-boggling for them to take a stance that would be so abhorrent. - Louis Gray

(continuing above) I recognize it's a slippery slope following your specific comment as parallels could be drawn on this issue vs. equal rights, as others have done. I'm not a typical evangelist/missionary who hands out Books of Mormon and begs friends to come to church in an effort to be converted, but for those friends who have come, they largely remark how friendly, good-natured and "normal" we seem. You and your family have a permanent invitation. :-) - Louis Gray

I'm a bible carrying Christian and one thing is perfectly clear to me. The bible tells us to not love the things of this world (1st John is one of my favorite books of the bible on the issue). Politics are things of the world. Should gays get married in churches? It doesn't make theological sense. Should gays be allowed to marry when society has secularized marriage, requiring marriage licenses, etc.? The U.S. Constitution demands it. - Rob Reed

And let's keep in mind that the LDS church isn't necessarily a cult here that forces members to do what they do not want to do. They have non-profit status and have to maintain that. As such, legally, they have to allow members to vote as they so choose. From what I've seen, this is actually also the church's official stance and belief. Members of the church have gone to extremes with it unfortunately, but as a member of the LDS faith, I know it will always support a love for all men, an ability to chose right from wrong, and a strong focus on families and loving all mankind. Paul, I could never see the church doing such a thing. That's the reason I'm a member of this church - I believe God will never lead it astray. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

The dictionary says a bigot is "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ." It's hard for me to see how somebody who supports Prop 8 doesn't match that definition. - Gabe

Gabe, at the same time, how is anyone who is against it also not a "bigot" by that definition? If we go by that definition, aren't we all bigots? (My point here is to ensure we're approaching this civily - let's not point fingers) - Jesse Stay from twhirl

Yeah, that's not the right definition of bigot. That definition explicitly includes political partisans, for example, and partisans bare no relation to bigots in the sense that the term is now used. - j1m

Jesse, it is my understanding that Prop 8 is a consitutional amendment that would take away the rights of gays to legally marry. Those who are for it are presumably intolerant of gays to the point of wanting to make it illegal even in communities that want to allow it. If you're against Prop 8, then at the very least you don't care about gay marriage and are thus not intolerant, right? - Gabe

Gabe, I see your point, but to say the "for" crowd are bigots I think is labeling too large a group to call each one a bigot. There are many people with many different reasons supporting Prop. 8. It's not all about "for or against Gay people". Calling people bigots is just name calling IMO. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

and at the same time, it's not fair for anyone in the "for" crowd to be calling the "against" crowd bigots either. I've heard it come from both sides unfortunately. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

You may be right, Jesse, but under what circumstances can a person who is against gay marriage (to the point of making it illegal) *not* intolerant? - Gabe

The obvious take it that people who seek to eliminate a right for a specific group are, in fact, bigots. I agree that word has an unfriendly tone, but of course seeking to eliminate someone's right to marry is a lot worse than just unfriendly. Jesse, if you want to make the argument that it's something else, feel free, but I think you'd have to win that argument. - j1m

j1m I'm simply saying I see the viewpoint of both sides. Neither are bigots as a whole. (however I know individuals on both sides within those groups that could be considered bigots) - Jesse Stay from twhirl

Oh I'm sure there are Prop 1A supporters who are bigots. The point I'm arguing is that Prop 8, the proposition itself, is a bigoted action. I assume in some cases the decision to support Prop 8 arises from strongly-held religious conviction in the absense of a desire to oppress gays. But at the end of the day, actions matter. We've decided as a nation that we don't take away the rights of particular groups. If you stray outside of that and try to take away others' rights, you're doing a bad thing. - j1m

j1m it's not that simple though - I think many of the religions out there are trying to defend their religion itself. While they aren't necessarily against gays, allowing gay marriage could force them to participate in ceremonies they fundamentally and morally don't agree with. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

What?? Allowing state recognition of gay marriage would not require any religion to participate in any ceremony they don't like! Nothing forces ministers to marry people against their will. - ⓞnor

Right. In other words, it is that simple. Jesse, it seems like you're seeking what newspaper critics call 'false balance,' i.e. 'Gosh, these Prop 8 supporters are doing something wrong, I'd better try and gin up some argument that the opponents are too, because I'm real real sure there are 2 sides to every story.' - j1m

Perhaps Jesse is saying that a bigot is somebody who is intolerant of anybody who differs from their views in any way, while most Prop 8 supporters are tolerant of people who differ from their views except when it comes to gay marriage. If that's the case, I would say that Prop 8 supporters are, by definition, bigots strictly with respect to gay marriage. - Gabe

I suspect he's mostly trying to engender civility. It's valuable to criticize people's political choices in a way that polite but firm. Saying that someone's a bigot leaves a lot to be desired here -- as do, in general, negative comments that characterize a person, rather than characterizing their actions. - j1m

One of our users added a Prop 8 news network on socialmedian today to track all the news and discussions on this hot topic from 100+ sources. http://www.socialmedian.com/network... -- We're featuring it on our homepage too. - Jason Goldberg

@nor it already has - see the "Legal Affairs" article as you scroll down on this page: http://www.npr.org/templat... - this will only get worse as gay marriage becomes legal. Again, I'm not saying I'm for or against it - I'm stating that there's more to it than being "for gays" or "against gays" here. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

Interesting article, Jesse. I wonder what will happen when Catholics will be forced to recognize divorces and Southerners will be forced to recognize interracial couples. - Gabe