And now that I've read the About page: I'll let the question, especially the second half, stand. - Walt Crawford

[And yes, I recognize that posting this means Ridley and his Merry Post-Literate Band can point and say "See? That boring old fart writer Just Doesn't Get It." Fine with me.] - Walt Crawford

I would guess he is quietly cursing that Pew report everyone's been talking about right now... - Chris Z.

Except he didn't read it, 'cos, y'know, he's all postliterate and stuff. - RepoRat

I wouldn't worry. Evidence doesn't matter when you're a Big Thinker. - Walt Crawford

I mean, I totally agree we're going to devise something better than alphabets to communicate. - Chris Z.

I went back and tried to read all seven chapterlets of the booklet. And have no comment that a polite soul like me would be willing to make. - Walt Crawford

I love ideas like this. I dislike the way they tend to be expressed without a lot of joy or play. - Steele Lawman

Well, as someone who knows Michael from OLA and other professional circles, I would say that Mike is someone who does approach ideas with a sense of joy and play (whether that comes across in this particular work, obviously is another matter). Also, I don't think you have to worry about holding back in fear of offending his sensibilities. This work was written to challenge ours. - copystar

I don't think I'll be holding back in fear of offending Ridley. I'm not holding back. Given the first chapter, I just don't much see the point of discussion: The gulf in approaches and apparent worldviews is too great. [Another way to put it: There's only so much time & energy for unprofitable ventures.] - Walt Crawford

Well. It's actually not a bad thought exercise. The alphabet has been around for a long time, but not nearly for all of human history, and plenty of people still get along with out "literacy" as we think of it. The Greeks had the alphabet long, long before they ever used it for anything, and the first things they wrote down in Linear B weren't their epics--they were things like inventory lists. They didn't need to write down the Odyssey--they knew it. So wondering what, if anything, follows the alphabet actually doesn't seem that far out to me. Farther out than my lifetime, to be sure, but fun as a thought exercise. - laura x

And it seems obvious that literacy is changing--that it's going away seems like a big overstatement, but as a thought experiment (as he says and as Laura reminds us) it could be fascinating. - Steele Lawman

I went back and read the first chapter again...and there's too much "inevitable" and not nearly enough "thought experiment in one possible future" for me to feel like engaging it. It appears that others will, and my grumpy old voice won't be missed. - Walt Crawford

Eh, I only read the first chapter because I don't find his writing particularly engaging, but I don't think the question is unworthy. - laura x

As laura x touches on, with Greek epics, there's a ton of amazing research on oral vs. print culture out there. I'd like to see a little more of that. Overall his ideas are interesting, but I'd generally like to see them fleshed out a little more, which might give some room for more subtlety re: "thought experiment in one possible future". - Amandadon't

(Acknowledging that the unfinished feel of this booklet might just be part of the point.) - Amandadon't

The alphabet is followed by binary, I'd've thought. - Deborah Fitchett

+++Deborah. - laura x

Hello Walt, this is one of the Merry Post-Literate Band here. May I premise my comments with the disclaimer that any views and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent Mike, the www.BeyondLiteracy.com project, nor the rest of my schoolmates. I am very excited to see that there is discussion brewing regarding the subject of post-literacy and I’d like to assure you that the very same discussions are happening within our Post-Literate Band. We are not banded so much by belief in a post-literate world, but are intrigued by the thought experiment and interested in examining possibilities many of us had never considered before. In fact, many of us come from English Literature backgrounds and have a deep attachment to books, as you may imagine. Many of us still struggle with the ideas in the Beyond Literacy project. I, myself, am someone constantly in awe of artist’s books and printmaking and have a deep of love for the collections at the Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library (amongst others). I must say that I am enjoying my adventure so far into this thought experiment, although I am undecided yet about whether “I believe” that post-literacy will “happen.” Our class is definitely merry and thankfully, there is no pressure to choose between being a “believer” or “non-believer.” I enjoy a class where I’m encouraged to think for myself in a way that is both creative and critical. My takeaway so far, which I do think is valuable, is that visual literacy is limiting in certain ways that I had not considered before. Given the struggles that many children (and adults!) go through in order to learn to read and write, perhaps visual literacy is not a most efficient means of communication. Perhaps what is most important to realize is that we currently privilege one type of learning (reading and writing) over other forms of learning and everyone just needs their own appropriate outlet. Instead of “one ultimate form of knowing,” (a role currently occupied by visual literacy),... more... - Farah Chung

Also, I regret that many have commented that Mike’s style is not engaging. He is wonderfully lively, intriguing and never tiresome or boring in class. Perhaps this is an example of the limits of the written word … ? - Farah Chung

Farah and others: I suspect this thread should be forked. I reacted strongly to the style and content of the initial chapters, coming off not as a thought experiment but as Inevitability. Once you set that aside, it may be a thought experiment that will engage dozens, hundreds or thousands of folks--probably not including me. - Walt Crawford

[Although I could comment on "Given the struggles...": Given the difficulty many children (and adults) have with numeracy, should we scrap number-based data and knowledge? But let it be. I'd draw you a picture, but I'm not sufficiently visually literate to do so.] - Walt Crawford

So, this has been interesting. I'm Mike Ridley. Delighted at the response to the project (positive and otherwise). It was intended to provoke discussion and it obviously has in this part of the interweb. Exploring new and different ideas always has its risks; Beyond Literacy was designed to be provocative but also a "starter kit" for a wider, distributed discussion. And that appears to be happening in many places. I welcome the critical as well as the supportive comments. That's how we move forward; that's how we probe controversial ideas. No apologies from me for that. - Michael Ridley

In the interests of owning up to my own occasional intemperance, I'm not going to edit the opening post. It responded to my first take on reading the first chapter, where "thought experiment" didn't come across clearly (maybe I'm insufficiently literate?). And my second and third take, for that matter. So it goes. - Walt Crawford

I got a press release for the project and didn't know what to make of it or of ACRL's involvement. Still feeling baffled but haven't had a chance to take a closer look. - Jennifer Howard

P.S. Perhaps unfairly, I was amused by this line in the press release: "The work is freely available for reading, comment and discussion at www.BeyondLiteracy.com." That invitation to read and comment comes right after a sentence talking about the demise of literacy. - Jennifer Howard

Well, you do have to consider that it's a discussion taking place entirely (except for the class) in text, about the death of literacy. - Walt Crawford

Eh, no you don't Each new medium cannibalizes the old, just as advocates for the old are forced to use new media if they wish to reach the widest audience (cf. Ong and zillion others on Plato). - Steele Lawman

Steele: I'd agree if the conversation and book were taking place as dances or movies or whatever postliterate medium might be involved. But that's not the case here. Anyway, I was mostly being amused, as Jennifer was. - Walt Crawford

I will try to be open-minded and dig past the bafflement when I get a chance. - Jennifer Howard

["Eh, no you don't Each new medium cannibalizes the old, just as advocates for the old are forced to use new media if they wish to reach the widest audience"] ...just like an old fart who hates change in libraries (especially those involving "hot new things") using friendfeed and twitter to promote his message of keeping to the old view of the library....bet he uses a phone in his library too...despite the fact original libraries didn't have those either - boobear

I love that. Now if only I knew who "hates change in libraries" and has a "message of keeping to the old view of the library" since I've been involved in and advocating (reasoned) change throughout my career. - Walt Crawford

That would be you obviously. "A library staff obsessed with Hot New Things and aiming for new users at the expense of familiar services and existing patrons is unbalanced and headed for trouble. " Sound familiar? - boobear

Despite that selective quoting, I'll stand by that statement as it is written. It says nothing about hating change. It says something about obsession and balance. (As for "his library," unless you're just a troll, I'd think you'd be aware that I haven't worked in a library for 30+ years.) - Walt Crawford

Never mind. "Boobear" has no profile and precisely two comments, those in this stream. So, troll it is. Have fun with that! - Walt Crawford

A troll that can quote you? Seems like a pretty awesome troll to me. Also, friendfeed is pointless. I only made this account to prove something. That if I apply YOUR methodology of huffing things off and engaging in reductio ad absurdum to YOUR work then you would get all pissy and whine about how that it isn't true and isn't right. Perhaps you should think about that when approaching the Beyond-lit project. It seems quite fascinating and it clearly talks about the FUTURE of literacy and what happens next as we look at the possibility of secondary orality. Clearly close-mindedness has stopped you from actually understanding anything you read, which is such a pity considering you are an old-school librarian. - boobear

If anybody's still playing: The sentence quoted is the SECOND sentence of Balanced Libraries. The first sentence: "A library system that stands still is unbalanced and headed for trouble." Otherwise, I apologize: It seems we're dealing with reading disabilities. If you believe you've proved something, I'm happy for you--but wouldn't your energies be better spent actually discussing the project? - Walt Crawford

And, of course, if you actually read the whole thread, you'd see that I admitted that I may have overreacted to the style and flat statements and that others might find it a fascinating discussion, just not one I was planning to participate in. There are lots of interesting discussions I don't participate in. Probably 99.99% of all discussions... - Walt Crawford

Since the first comment in this thread is unfortunate, and it closes with trollery (ability to quote doesn't mean you're not a troll), I'm closing comments and starting a new thread here: http://friendfeed.com/lsw... - Walt Crawford