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For the complete LSW tagline please refer to the print edition. [tagline approved by committee, see minutes for vote]
Summon 2.0 question: A search for the article "guns the US threat to Mexican national security" is categorized as a magazine article. It stays in the search when I limit on the facets to Scholarly & peer-reviewed. However, when I go to advanced search and limit there to 'Scholarly materials, including peer-reviewed', it is gone from the results.
What's going on here? What's the difference between the facet and the limit? Especially given that there is an additional limit offered in advanced search for "peer reviewed publications". - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
(also, OMG, I hate Summon! My students can't grasp what a scholarly article is, and Summon is NOT helping this any!) - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
I would help look at it, except we are having technical issues with Summon again... sigh. - aaron
I don't know about Summon, but I know that in Primo the metadata is divided into different sections for display vs search vs facetting. This can be useful for finetuning but could also cause anomalies like you describe so maybe Summon is set up in a similar way and the metadata for that article is wonky in the 'search' section? - Deborah Fitchett
Hmm if you do a search then filter to Scholarly & peer-reviewed the URL should be the same as if you went directly to advanced search and directly limited to that plus search. So it shouldn't make a difference? My Summon instance doesn't seem to have that article, so can't really duplicate what you found. - aaron
Anyone have a list of the journals with the highest Institutional list price to Individual price ratio? I know that Nature Physics is at 28:1 ($4,958 to $175) or about 44.9:1 ($4,958 to $110.50/year if subscribed for two years.)
Laura Norvig
I don't really know what Digital Humanities means.
It means your palimpsest is in the other castle - Pete : Team Marina
don't worry, neither does anybody else - RepoRat
Digital Humanities is what *you're* doing. Not what that other person over there is wasting their time on. - John Dupuis
Apparently nobody does because everyone keeps writing about how to define it. - barbara fister from iPhone
Give it ten years and it will be called "humanities." - barbara fister from iPhone
Digital Humanities is people who are tired of having to deal with the senior "regular humanities" people who are in the way... kinda like libraries vs digital libraries? - Aaron the Librarian
I [heart] this thread - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Am I a Digital Human? - Andrew C (✔)
The matrix? - Steve C Team Marina
Laura Norvig
Today I am throwing away all of my class materials from studying for my MLIS at SJSU. I am terrible at throwing things away, but have been storing them in my cube at work and we are moving.
Goodbye Introduction to Cataloging and Classification, eighth edition. - Laura Norvig
Goodbye course reader from Lib Sci 248, Cataloging, Summer 1999, Dr. Liu - Laura Norvig
Goodbye course material from Lib 210, Reference and Info Svcs, Spring 1998, Terry Crowley, the best teacher ever, RIP. - Laura Norvig
Goodbye materials from Lib 231, Spring 1998, Special Libraries, Becky Barber. - Laura Norvig
Might have to save my literature survey, "From Crisis to Opportunity: Access to Scholarly Articles in the Digital Age," written Dec 1, 1997. - Laura Norvig
Goodbye junk from Lib 244, Database Retrieval Systems, Robert Wagers. ... oh, I am so bad at this ... look at these oldie but goodie articles on Controlled Vocabulary vs. Free Text searching ... - Laura Norvig
Goodbye materials from Lib 220, Fall 1998, Libraries and the Law, taught by the fabulous Mary Minow. To keep: Homework assignment: Letter to Congressman Livingston detailing why the Child Protection Act of 1998 is unacceptable and unconstitutional. - Laura Norvig
Goodbye core course crap: Lib 200, Information and Society, Fall 1997 w/ Yael Schwartz; and Lib 204, Management w/ Dr. Fisher. - Laura Norvig
Goodbye print out of Odlyzko's July, 1994 article about the impending demise of traditional scholarly journals stating, "traditional scholarly journals will likely disappear within 10 to 20 years." ... well, we are close, my friend. - Laura Norvig
Oh, that is a classic. - Joe
I don't think I have ever not thought that Odlyzko was anything but a loon. - RepoRat
I was a good student! Also: hilarious point in time reference. I wrote an entire paper about The Benefits and Drawbacks of E-Mail since it was a "relatively new mode of communication." - Laura Norvig
Odd that Tragic loss was published in multiple journals, I don't see one from June. International Journal of Human-Computer Studies, Volume 42, Issue 1, January 1995, Pages 71–122 ( and and International Journal of Human-Computer Volume 42 Issue 1, Jan. 1995 ( and in January of 1995. - Joe
Classic in the ironic sense. I now think of him as a loon, but 20 years ago, I read what he wrote with some esteem. - Joe
Thanks for the linky. - Joe
I don't think email will ever take. - Joe
Goodbye stuff from User Interface Design with Tessier, Jan 1999 - The beginning of the end of any chance I would go into a traditional library career. Ugh, I do not want to throw away these notes. Let go, Laura, let go. Found: email correspondence with Tog of Found: URL of class project ... oh, interwebs, someone needs to clear out your cobwebs ... - Laura Norvig
Goodbye stuff from Creativity and Problem Solving with Wayne Reeves. - Laura Norvig
Scribbled on a piece of paper: "Here's a question: why do so few search engines give you a chance to choose how your data will be sorted and displayed?" - Laura Norvig
If you have to ask, we don;t trust you to sort it properly - Aaron the Librarian
Can I please get the comments in this thread sorted alphabetically by author instead of reverse chronologically? - Joe
Goodbye underlined and highlighted copy of Marchionini's "Information Seeking in Electronic Environments." *feels distinct pangs of anguish*. Ditto Meadow's "Text Information Retrieval Systems." I should just go back to school, shouldn't I? - Laura Norvig
Hello! (I mean goodbye) article by Daphne Koller, "Hierarchically classifying documents using very few words." Did I mention I am not very good at this throwing away thing? Goodbye all the great notes from Judy Tessier's Lib 202 Information Retrieval, Fall 1997. - Laura Norvig
Goodbye more books: Collection Development Policies. Buckland's Information and Information Systems. - Laura Norvig
Walt Crawford
Anyone know if something's up (or down!) at Univ. of Alberta Libraries? I've reached them as a publisher...and trying to follow any link from the journal home pages just spins and spins and spins. After five minutes, I mark that as "journal unreachable." Three spinning right now, including EBLIP.
The journal home pages (all OJS, as far as I can tell) come up just fine--but any link (e.g. Archive or About) goes into permaspin. - Walt Crawford
There are four more I haven't tried yet; I'd hate to mark all seven as unreachable, but that's sure how it looks right now. - Walt Crawford
Actually only three more: the fourth is elsewhere at Alberta, and works just fine. So it's apparently a library-as-host problem. A shame. - Walt Crawford
Sigh. 13 minutes, one attempt formally timed out, given up on all three. No major significance in what I'm doing, but a shame--especially since they all sound like interesting journals (Complicity, Constitutional forum, Evidence Based Library and Information Practice). - Walt Crawford
That's weird. I use EBLIP all of the time. ETA: it works for me right now. - Jaclyn aka spamgirl
While I was out weeding, EBLIP came back (with functioning links, that is); I'll retry all three after lunch. I've used EBLIP before too, which is one reason I was surprised by the apparent malfunction. - Walt Crawford
Back for another library-hosted journal. (When I say "out weeding," I mean out pulling weeds, not deaccessioning books. But you probably knew that.) - Walt Crawford
To close this: Yes, all of them were back, and I've added "Recheck unreachables" to my short list of second-pass things to do. There aren't a whole bunch of them, so that's doable. - Walt Crawford
Aaron the Librarian
Best/Easiest way to capture and work with JSON objects (for a non-coder)? We have a way to output JSON objects, no idea where to put 'em
what do you need them for? - RepoRat
(They should be serializable as plain text which you can dump wherever.) - RepoRat
basically it's survey output. several fields have arrays in them, but I have no native intervace to graph and/or munge - Aaron the Librarian
Do google forms/docs/spreadsheets accept JSON inputs? - Aaron the Librarian
I think OpenRefine might be your best bet here. I believe it'll import JSON, and it will certainly export CSV and Excel. - RepoRat
Ooh, fun twist - one of the fields includes an array of multiple defined checkboxes... must think about how to munge that into something useful, too [eta: maybe script something which would repeat all teh fields and break out the array into individual rows?] - Aaron the Librarian
yeah, especially if you might ever have to do this again, a script would probably be a good idea... - RepoRat
Dissertation abstracts is ignoring the very important word ARSON in my searches. *wah* Why does it do this? Seriously, it makes me feel like I am losing all my search fu!
that's weird...have you tried putting it in quotes? it shouldn't need it, but maybe it will work? - Sir Shuping is just sir
weirdly, that did change the results, a bit. Still not seeing the term in the displayed snippets, but searching "arson" brought back more results. weirdness. (also, good tip! thank you) - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Some days I bust out the giant Post-It paper and markers in class just because I think it's fun.
Extra-big markers. - Meg VMeg
YES - jambina
I think it's the heady reaction to the smell of the markers, personally - Aaron the Librarian
The students were confused at first, but they are first-years and it seems everything is confusing to them. Their prof was way into it. - kaijsa
Julie Kane
For Betsy (I have Acrobat Pro)
Thank you! When I tried to do it, pages 4+ were images, for some reason. Thank you thank you. - Betsy
You're very welcome! Anytime. I love Acrobat Pro. :) - Julie Kane
Help with converting from PDF to Word or text? I found a 2002 pathfinder from MPOW online elsewhere and I'm trying to update it. No one here has the file. When I open the PDF with Word, Word says it has converted it but most of the file has been converted into page images. Can anyone help? I need something editable.
I know half of it is out of date, but half is not, and I need to finish it this month, so I'd rather not retype. - Betsy
does anybody have Acrobat Pro kicking around? - RepoRat
Not in my department. I don't know much of anyone at the other departments. It's a big place, and I'm new. - Betsy
You'll need to put it through OCR to make it editable. PDF is just a page image unless there's OCR information behind it. I would suggest contacting your IT department to see if there's a place on campus that has Acrobat Pro or something similar installed because that'll have the capabilities you need. Otherwise there are some online services you can find, but I don't know enough about them to make a recommendation. - lris
Well, there's another way to create a textful PDF, which is to build it from a textful document rather than from images. When I opened the document and did a select-all and copy, the text pasted into TextWrangler just fine. So I do think Acrobat Pro could help here. - RepoRat
I posted it for you - Acrobat pro. - Julie Kane
Right now, I'm doing copy/paste, then removing all the extraneous paragraph marks that used to be line breaks, then turning on spell-check so I can find the odd pasting errors; e.g., COlLECTION. - Betsy
Julie Kane rules! - Betsy
Yesterday's class learned that .org sites are not reliable. Yay! (in a class I did on searching the interwebs for first-year students)
many of the 250+ students said that they learned about "using quotes" to narrow results in Google, meaning that they didn't know that before. More Yay. - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
love this comment, re CRAAP test: "The CRAPPY technique is really helpful and is an easy acronym to remember." - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
and they liked that I showed 'em how to limit by date in Google searches. - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
I [heart] this one: I learned the importance of quotation marks in searches. They may not seem like they make a difference, but it could be crucial when you're looking for specific information. One simple phrase in quotation marks could narrow a search from over 100 million results to less than 1 million. I used quotation marks in the search queries for homework and I noticed the result number drop significantly and I found what I was looking for faster. - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
and this: I learned how to get to the Park Library! Tomorrow, I'm going to go visit it, so I know where it is, and do some homework. I'm excited! - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
this is true, tho' sort of sad: "I learned that nothing has really changed in the world of Boolean searching over the semesters it has taken for library employees to give me this lecture at least 5 times" - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
student in the class made this wikipedia entry while he was in hs - it's Totally Bogus! lol. - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
*love* "Today I learned the method of CRAAP in determining the helpfulness of the article. CRAAP stands for Currency, Relevance, Accuracy, Authority, and Purpose. I also learned that the librarian is super cool, and I want to be her best friend." - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Cod Signal: Looking for information about digitization of old newspapers and the U.S. copyright issues involved. MPOW is interesting in doing this. I'm finding stuff from 10 years ago. Is there more current U.S. information that you already know about? Thanks!
Related question: old newspaper on microfilm. Only a handful of places in the country own this microfilm, but no one can buy more copies of this film because the giant company that swallowed the company that did the digitization appears to have lost all records and film related to this title. Question: Can this film be digitized? Who owns the copyright: the extinct newspaper, or the microfilm company? - Betsy
(Note: we're interested in digitizing other old newspapers, not just the one listed above.) - Betsy
best places to talk to for specifics would be the LOC Newspaper digitization center, UGA Newspaper project, and LYRASIS (they have a group working on this.) the problem that you've noted already, is that some of the megacompanies bought (namely proquest, readex, and newspaper archives) bought up the rights to a lot of those smaller papers which from my understanding, prevents others... more... - Sir Shuping is just sir
Thanks. - Betsy
Open access tshirts, we need them. Where should we buy them?
order early or they run out of sizes, but the quality is solid, especially for the price. alternatively you can download the artwork for free and print your own locally. - jambina
super, thank you! - Marie
fwiw - the orange OA ones are a kickass orange, but the text is genuinely straight across the chesticles. not my favourite to wear if i'm going to be in front of an audience... - jambina
Better World Books: eDelivery -
Better World Books: eDelivery
So, BWB now has a "2 hour edelivery" option. Rather than mailing you the print copy you just purchased, you can have them destructively scan the book and email it to you. - DJF from Bookmarklet
Has anybody tried it? I'm curious. - DJF
I guess you'd have to pick just the right book to destroy. That could be tricky. - Stephen Francoeur
I'm going to pick something relatively inexpensive and very common. Probably something I already have in print. - DJF from Android
hmm. could be interesting for some things I have in print but would like an eversion of as well. - ellbeecee
US customers only. The rest of us get a confusing error message. - DJF
interesting implications for ILL?! - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
1) it's an Internet Archive style book scan: a PDF of page images with unedited OCR text. 2) It's watermarked with the purchaser's contact info, so I wouldn't want it release it into the wild. - DJF
Somebody tell the author's guild so their heads can explode. - barbara fister
Walt Crawford
Here's a journal for which I had a great pseudotranslation: "INGINERIA ILUMINATULUI," Engineers among the Illuminati. No such luck--it's the Journal of Lighting Engineering, another fine Romanian Gold OA journal.
Sigh. And another one I can't process fully, as it only has full-issue PDF downloads, no ToC. (That puts it in my "opaque" category, new to the new project.) - Walt Crawford
Lee Rainie is in the building! He's good friends with one of my faculty buddies, and Lee is talking to my buddy's class. I got introduced to him in the mailroom before my 9 am class. And he's coming to my library later! *squee*
This is supercute. - Steele Lawman
Walt Crawford
Mild quandary (or not): Just got a request to use the last page (more or less) of the Journals, "Journals..." essay in a guide for faculty, with credit and a link to the C&I issue. I of course said "yes, that's great," but also noted (a) that the CC BY-NC license meant the person didn't need to ask and (b) that, as one page of a 24-page essay... was probably covered by fair use in any case. On one hand, I didn't want to lecture a librarian about not asking for permission when you don't need I tried to avoid a "lecture voice." (The librarian also addressed me as Professor Crawford, but then I used to be Doctor Crawford to anybody outside the U.S. asking about something, so I just noted that I'm several degrees away from being a qualified professor.) - Walt Crawford
While there are far fewer "professors" than there are "doctors", the latter is not (didn't used to be) a requirement to become the former. I've known a few professors who weren't doctors. - DJF
Good point. I'm neither, to be sure. - Walt Crawford
Abstracts - Coalition of Urban and Metropolitan Universities -
Abstracts - Coalition of Urban and Metropolitan Universities
Worst journal page ever. Help me list the ways. - maʀtha from Bookmarklet
Wow. That's .... um, wow. - Catherine Pellegrino
first question - what's the name of the journal? - maʀtha
it's like a case study in how to make your content unfindable - maʀtha
I love this part "To order any article in pdf format, please fill-out the subscription form and mail or fax it" - Marianne
Not close to being the worst (trust me on this!), but a bit bizarre. (Possibly the worst from a U.S.-based higher-education-related source: a narrower field.) Still, bizarre, especially the "order" part since those articles open in PDF just fine. I guess "If you don't know how to use a link, then use this link to...oh, wait..." - Walt Crawford
Ereserves and copyright: So, if we own a print copy of a book, what's the current legal way for a library to do an online copy of a chapter for students in a course? Are we supposed to pay clearance fees? Can we scan our chapter and put it in the Moodle course shell? Do we have to put it on reserve physically?
Fair use. You can scan a chapter. - lris
What lris said. The GSU decision covers you pretty decently well for a single chapter, at present. (It is under appeal, of course, but chances that a publisher is gonna sue before that's resolved are pretty minimal, pragmatically speaking.) Definitely put it somewhere it's restricted only to students in the course. Physical reserve is optional, but not the world's worst idea either. - RepoRat
thank you! Some of our folks are very, very conservative about copyright, and I'm very very liberal, so a fact checking is appreciated. - Jenica
One chapter is fine. Two chapters or more is under debate. (Some libraries do it, some won't.) Also under question is the 10% vs 20% of a book. There are books with 39 or 50+ chapters. Why couldn't one place 3 or 5 chapters on reserve if it is less than the 10% (or 20%) threshold? Then there are the questions about scanning an appendix or supplemental material that really isn't a... more... - Joe
Also, for us ('cause, you know, GSU), the faculty member placing the request must complete the USG Fair Use checklist - - ellbeecee
Lee Rainie's advice to me about reaching mai students: bring the story to them. He said that to me! Right in mai office!! #ponders #Can'tBelieveIForgotToGetAPhoto
in related news, a prof. offered this suggestion for improving our library instr. to her students: "if there were a game or some fun challenge that students can do at the start (or at the end), it might engage them more. " - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Everyone please to wish Rachel a very happy birthday!
Happy happy, Rachel! And keep up the good fight. - laura x from iPhone
Happy birthday, Rachel! - Betsy
Happy birthday :) - Pete : Team Marina
Happy birthday, Rachel! - RepoRat
Many happy returns! - Megan loves summer
Happy birthday! - Catherine Pellegrino
Happy Birthday! - Katy S from iPhone
Happy bday! - Joe
Hope it's a good one! - Stephen Francoeur
A very happy birthday to you Rachel! - Galadriel C.
Happy Birthday Rachel!! - Hedgehog
bonne fête, ma belle! - jambina
Happy birthday! - Jen
A belated but very enthusiastic thank you! - Rachel Walden
huh, thought i posted this to LSW too earlier today but apparently not. happy to finally be able to announce that in early November i'll be starting a new gig at the University of Chicago as their IR manager. #fuckyeahChicago!
Woo! - lris
Woo-hoo! - Betsy
Congrats! - Jen
Cool. - Joe
Hooray + Congratulations! - Galadriel C. from Android
I think it will soon be time for another LSW Midwest Meetup. *nods* - RepoRat
YAY! - maʀtha
@RR: YES! Are we heading to Chicago this time? I like Chicago - maʀtha
I could go for Chicago, sure. - RepoRat
Yay! - Betsy
Let me know when you're thinking, too, so I can see if it coincides with a trip home to see the family :) - Katie
so happy for you - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
congrats! Lots of luck in your new position. - Elizabeth Brown
laura x
Okay, folks. It exists. Please populate. Damn You Auto Suggest -
Okay, folks. It exists. Please populate. Damn You Auto Suggest
Show all
"or Primo Knows Best. Auto-suggest failures from library catalogs and databases." - laura x from Bookmarklet
Happy to contribute! - Zamms
Laura, you are a treasure. - kaijsa
Hey Laura, can I send you a revised Berlin All graphic? Just noticed my kid's name mentioned it so I want to crop it a little. - Zamms
And now it is also automatically fed into the LSW room. Heeeeeeeeeeee - lris
Well played! - Zamms
Zamms, yes, please do--or just go ahead and submit it and I'll delete the other one. - laura x
I found the avatar by searching for search fail, licensed for reuse with modification on Google images: - laura x
"yoga poses" and "otitis externa" just made me guffaw at the reference desk. Damn you, Auto-Suggest! - Catherine Pellegrino
This is just so awesome. - Galadriel C.
Oh darn. Can't recreate my favorite. They turned of suggest globally in our ebscohost. Oh wait - publib! - Christina Pikas from iPhone
Delightful. - Marie
I am sending this link to MPOW's cataloger. *evil chuckle* - Catherine Pellegrino
I love this so much. - Meg VMeg
This definitely goes in my best thing ever file. - Megan loves summer
related, in a weird way: - RepoRat
Meg VMeg
"The full text for selected articles from this publisher cannot be printed." Thanks, but no thanks, HBR.
"In fact, we'd prefer you don't even read them. But if you DO have to read them, please send us $250 for the privilege, per paragraph, at which point you will be required to read it through a blindfold." - lris
HATE - jambina
Wow. - Heather Piwowar from iPhone
Yup. This is why we continue to purchase the print and will scan and put on reserve articles as needed for courses. - Holly's favorite Anna
yep, anna - ellbeecee
Hey, Heather's back! *waves at Heather* - Meg VMeg
:) *waves*. Lurking more than posting recently, but am here. FriendFeed makes me happy. Thanks for saying hi, am happy to see you too :) - Heather Piwowar from iPhone
Walt Crawford
Whew. Finished Pass 1 of the Beall list for the new project...and I wouldn't mind not seeing an International Journal of Anything for a few months. Now to take a break, then proceed with the remaining 840-or-so DOAJ items.
I KNOW! Let's start the International Journal of International Journals! - RepoRat
I thought I'd already used that line, but probably not. Anyway, let's not. (Must admit: going back to the DOAJ items feels good--not nearly so much boastfulness, frequently boastfulness in the same pseudoEnglish that others use. No, IJwhatever, you're *not* going to be The Most Trusted Source for Advances in Medicine and Pharmacy. Not even close. - Walt Crawford
So today I get a spam invitation to submit to a journal...but this time it's from a "List of International Journals" and features five or six different International Journals of... that are eagerly awaiting my world-class engineering or science or medicine or whatever paper. Gmail, as usual, trapped it as spam. As it would, no doubt, the International Journal of International Journals. - Walt Crawford
Regular Amanda
Ebooks what the what, edition 478: for those that have JSTOR ebooks, can you confirm that there is no way to search within a single ebook title? I see search within an ebook chapter, or across the entire JSTOR corpus, but not within a single ebook title. It's not like search is one of the basic benefits of an ebook or anything. Am I crazy?
Let me say that I largely appreciate the JSTOR ebook approach, this just seems like a really weird interface oversight. - Regular Amanda
Not in the way one would expect (which indeed seems odd!) but using Advanced Search I could put in the item title and then search on another term. Did also pull up reviews of said book that used keyword but that didn't cause too much noise. - Lisa Hinchliffe
I will have to check on this tomorrow. - Joe
Without having to go to the advanced search, I can search within a chapter. - Joe
Also, for an advanced search, it doesn't seem like JSTOR thinks that the subtitle is part of the title of this book. "Christian Monitors: The Church of England and the Age of Benevolence, 1680-1730" Doing a title search on that doesn't seem to find that title. - Joe
Thanks for sharing this! We haven't turned on JSTOR in GOBI yet but are in the process of reviewing pros/con's of publishers to add and it's helpful to have this detail. - Galadriel C. from Android
So it seems like you can either use the main JSTOR advanced search to combine item title with term, or search within individual chapters, but not search from the actual book home page. We just submitted an enhancement request for this, because usability-wise it seems like one would assume you could search through the ebook at the ebook's home page. Galadriel, we like JSTOR's pricing and... more... - Regular Amanda
Galadriel, did you encounter any issues with the license agreement? We're stuck waiting for JSTOR legal to approve our amendments. - Holly's favorite Anna
Anna, we haven't even gotten that far. If we can't activate in GOBI under an existing agreement, we probably won't pursue further until after the new year when I'm done with journal renewals. - Galadriel C. from Android
Me, to a student, making fun of my inability to follow alphabetical order: "No, really, I can alphabet."
I alphanumeric at a collegiate level. - Julian
No really! I acn tyope! - Aaron the Librarian
Oh wait. I can get sex videos via licensed databases? -
This is just awesome. - Galadriel C.
My co-worker has a library session in every class period tomorrow. yeow.
Okay, that just invalidated my argument. - Catherine Pellegrino
Oh, that's not good. - kaijsa
so 2 in 18 hours doesn't hold much water, does it? - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
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