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Marshall Kirkpatrick › Comments
I just got a seat in front row of LeWeb to find out that Twitter is down. Not a good time for it to go down.
Werner Trotter, Roldano De Persio of FF, Tresha Thorsen and 7 other people liked this
I told the guy next to me "at least we have FriendFeed." He looked at me strange.
- Robert Scoble
LOL
- Micah Wittman
HA!
- Dave Martin
maybe he was thinking, "at least we still have http://copainsdavant.linternaute.com/ !"
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
A big conference able to crash twitter all by itself :-)
- Brian Schwartz
Did the guy wander into the wrong conference?
- David Damore
Post to your Facebook Page - he'll understand that
- Jesse Stay
Damn. Conference hasn't even really started properly and the LeWeb gang are crashing Twitter.
- Tom Morris
Well, Robert, this is another fine mess you've gotten us all into.
- Dave Martin
I posted to Facebook too. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Someone needs to build a Twitter proxy service that'll hold tweets until the service is back up online and repost them.
- Tom Morris
There is a major problem with Twitter. Tweets from people you are NOT following are appearing in your stream. These are NOT Twitter ReTweet either.
- David Damore
It wasn't LeWeb's fault. No one is even here in the hall yet. The conference starts in 45 minutes or so.
- Robert Scoble
What time is it there Robert?
- Brian Schwartz
Certain social media people have egos big enough that they like to think that they could crash Twitter. ;)
- Tom Morris
Brian: 0818.
- Tom Morris
Robert, how is the conf, so far?
- Dave Martin
perhaps it's time to switch to SkyRock or Trombi! ;)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
MK - it's the default of the stars - friendster
- Dave Martin
Tom, hmmm...Seesmic should do that - but Loic's busy running LeWeb right now ;-)
- Jesse Stay
Friendster? I've still got an Orkut account...
- Tom Morris
You could all use Google Wave for LeWeb. Watch each other type and then watch your browser crash a few minutes later.
- Brian Schwartz
irc
- Dave Martin
Still messing around with Twitter?!?
- Adrian
"Responding to unscheduled downtime 1 second ago We are working to respond to a disruption in service that stated approximately 10 minutes ago."
- David Damore
That is on http://status.twitter.com/ now
- David Damore
irc.freenode.net #leweb
- Tom Morris
Brian: it's 8:28 a.m. in Paris.
- Robert Scoble
http://gsnap.com/scoblei... <<-- I am curating LeWeb in real time here.
- Robert Scoble
word of the month: curate. Me? I just tweet, surf, read, share, blog when I have something to say.
- Karoli
The Twitter is back
- Dave Martin
Looks like it is back now
- Stephane Bourzeix
Karoli - check this - The Content Strategist as Digital Curator by Erin Scime via A List Apart http://bit.ly/5PuQT0
- Dave Martin
Spoke too soon. Twitter not exactly back. Latency issues.
- Dave Martin
Dave, I know there are tons of posts about curation. It's the hot term right now. I hate it, mostly because it's...the hot term. :)
- Karoli
Karoli, hear you. Still, the item is worth your attention, maybe ;)
- Dave Martin
just behind you and said "pardon" when I had an accident with your camera ahahaha
- zeno
International growth has started to completely dominate on FriendFeed since August. Below is an unlabeled graph of page views on FriendFeed this month, broken down by country. Guess which country is the largest green slice below? (Hint: it is not English-speaking)
emel karakaya, Nick Mutton, elodeon and 220 other people liked this
Iran!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Turkey??
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
We are still blocked in Iran
- Bret Taylor
Turkey
- Cliff Gerrish
Me
- Johnny Worthington
Brazil?
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
turkey, imho.
- 1Co
Oh and good to see you bret.
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
Turkey is in fact the green slice. Orange is also not English speaking. Guess which country :)
- Bret Taylor
france
- WorldofHiglet
Japan or Italy? Maybe Portugal?
- Schadenfreude
Hmm.. Turkey is the biggest international... I am not surprised (:
- Ozgur Demir
i totally don't know my FF :(
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Orange - Russia? :)
- Шалена бджiлка
FF is rising fast in Turkey I guess. And will probably continue to rise for some time. Celebrities are joining too (:
- Hakan Deryal
I am guessing the orange is Canada :P
- Johnny Worthington
COUNTRY OR CONTINENT?UNITED STATES OF AMERICA....
- Pam Gwenzi
@Brent. is USA one of these countries ? or does chart only show internationals ?
- Ozgur Demir
USA is blue. About 23% of our page views now.
- Bret Taylor
Does Australia get a slice?
- Johnny Worthington
@Bret, Can we get more info about Turkey in FF?
- Hakan Deryal
India
- Hayes Haugen
The orange slice is actually Italy, believe it or not. Turkey and Italy have been growing like gangbusters the past few months.
- Bret Taylor
@Bret. yes, your guess is correct (about gangs) (:
- Ozgur Demir
Sweet, correct guess :)
- Schadenfreude
Turkey. hehe :)
- Oğuz Serdar
from Android
What is the gray then, Bret?
- Schadenfreude
what is the gray?
- Mycaptain
some of our friends from US don't know about FF, lol :)
- Ufuk Özgül
Gray is "other"
- Bret Taylor
where other is proxied users from Iran. ;)
- EricaJoy
Both China and Iran would have been in there if they were not both blocked currently
- Bret Taylor
Is Russia any of the other slices pictured above? (other than gray)
- Schadenfreude
That's where Australia is, in the grey :)
- Glenn Slaven
OMG. Friendfeed is going the way of Orkut ;) Btw, is Norway/Scandinavia even visible in all this ? Just curious.
- Thomas Bøhm
@thomas. even though Orkut is Turkish (the guy), it is (site) not big in Turkey.
- Ozgur Demir
Just look at the public feed for 2 secs or 2 hours - yep, definitely.
- Micah Wittman
from iPhone
Facebook has a very similar story as far as I know.. we are a communicative nation:)
- Neşe Uyanık
Who's Gray? It's Gray, Louis of course :)
- Micah Wittman
Thank you for sharing this graph, Bret.
- Micah Wittman
Interesting - though for the sake of data visualization, pie charts are the worst of all.... :)
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
See-ming, a-hem, take a look at your avatar ;)
- Micah Wittman
@Bret, what is the exact number of Turkish people on FF?
- Ozkan Altuner
Ozkan, I'd be curious to know too, but I have a feeling there's an internal policy about not releasing absolute numbers, hence the percentages. But it never hurts to ask :)
- Micah Wittman
@Micah, it's the page view, however, not the number of users :)
- Ozkan Altuner
Good point, Ozkan. But I can't remember Visitor or View counts ever publicly reported before. But today could be the first time! :)
- Micah Wittman
Iran :-)
- Nimaa
Everyone knows teh fuckin answer Bret. It's Turkey. Mahir loves you http://www.ikissyou.org
- Ahmet Alp Balkan
from iPod
I'm not surprised that Turkey is the green portion. I've seen more and more Turkish posts in my home feed. I thought it was just a biased sample, but perhaps not.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Iran
- Assal
Turkey
- Shey, Jamaican of FF
Intense competition between Iran and Turkey occurred :D
- Nimaa
Hmmmmmmmmmmm...MOZAMBIQUE luminous orange l guess
- Pam Gwenzi
the desire to push the boundaries of internet of the turkish is troubling. the possesive tendecies of the turkish can be observed in the currently popular ''ff bu deYil'' (this is not ff) comment. turks are crowding ff, westerners are in panic!
- ferayebend
turks are invading ff!!! call norad
- aadagger
international growth dominates FF and yet the USA dominates the world. Not always in good ways either. What is the link? I don't think there is one. All I can say is that I love the USA and I love FriendFeed. What does it all mean? More free, cold beer is needed to find the answers.
- Morgan Haley
.. because, Turkish Facebook users are 10-20 years old. FF is very good alternative for older users. (and in addition Twitter is non-useful)
- Murat Tatar
Bret would that mean that FF has around 200K Turkish users? http://siteanalytics.compete.com/friendf...
- Cem ARGUN
Murat Tatar. So you've seen that Turkish Facebook users demographics ? even though it's unpublished.
- Ozgur Demir
SO when are we gonna party BRET? :)
- Bahriye
Actually, I wonder when Bret is gonna post something like "FF bu degil!"..
- Ozgur Demir
What do we care :) FF is this. And this is the rl. SO THE QUESTION IS: When are we gonna party!
- Bahriye
Bret start learning Turkish. You should have guessed from the reactions the days a.) you changed the design, b.) announced the FB deal. :)
- Cem ARGUN
I've noticed it on my feed. It's all good.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
I've noticed a huge increase in Iran, peaking at about 7-8am Eastern
- H0llywoodWh0re
Just curious, what's happening with total page views? (I don't trust alexa, compete, etc.)
- Bruce Lewis
@Bret, 1- Turkey, 2- USA, 3- Italy, 4- India, 5- Japan, 6- Germany, 7- UK & Russia 8 - Pakistan 9- Iran 10- Canada.. Is it True?
- Kemalettin Bulamacı
italian power! yeah! ;)
- Dario Salvelli
Anyone worth their weight in tweets knows that it's turkey.
- Richard A.
knew it english speaker are way down
- ffcode
Turkey?
- ★ Soner Gönül
If that is so, can we get some way of filtering by language? I want to follow more international people but be able to ignore them or their friends when they post in what I cannot read :)
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
Turkiye :)
- Mustafa Çamaltı
italy rules!! :-)
- batta
Turkey
- Melih Bahadır Varol
My bet's on India
- Rod Nicolson
Country dominating FriendFeed? My guess...Brazil (have to bet on the homeland)
- Victoria Harres Akers
Btw, FriendFeed is blocked in Turkish Schools :(
- F. Batuhan Icoz
from iPhone
It's blocked in US schools that I attended as well F. Batuhan :(
- Schadenfreude
Italy?
- Matte
You may have to develop "hide by language" feature very soon.
- Bahadır Yağan
Afghanistan
- Pam Gwenzi
go italy!
- Alessandro
How much does the UK get?
- Kol Tregaskes
Turkey is the winner btw.
- Kol Tregaskes
YEAH TURKEY !
- Çağatay " SKYLAB " Şama
different kind of widgets? I don't like with blue line. years fighting with it :) and option to change fonts. please :)
- Okeane
#Turkey of course ;)
- Volkan Özçelik
IRAN :)
- ДMIROVSKY☂امیروفسکی
Iran خودشم تو روحت که دیشب فرفر و خراب کرده بودی . اگه تونستی بفهم چی گفتم !
- حاج مهدی ©
Gotta be Turkey. It is Thanksgiving weekend, after all!
- Mark Jepsen
:)
- Susan Beebe
Is there any place to get a full breakdown, including the smaller slices, by country with percentages? Thanks.
- Mikeynitle
@bret, what is the number of friendfeed users in total?
- elodeon
How's this for an explanation of Pubsubhubbub?
Régis Gaidot, Alexander Ainslie, Jimminy and 10 other people liked this
<h2>How Hubbub Works</h2> There are three parties in the Pubsubhubbub model. There's a Publisher (FeedBurner, for example), and a Subscriber (perhaps Netvibes) and the communication is facilitated through a Hub (Google's AppSpot Hub is the demo and most popular Hub so far). The publisher knows that every time new content is published it's going to notify the Hub - the Hub that gets notified will be declared at the top of the publisher's document, just like an RSS feed URL. So the Publisher delivers new content to the Hub and then the Hub will deliver that message immediately to all the Subscribers who have subscribed to recieve updates from that particular publisher. This is very different from the traditional model of a subscriber polling a publisher directly every 5 to 30 minutes (or less) to check and see if there's new content. There usually isn't and so that model is inefficient and slow. Hubbub is nearly immediate and only takes action when something important occurrs. It's...
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- Marshall Kirkpatrick
That's good!
- Julien
awesome, thanks.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Great, although Brad's kid in the backseat analogy rules.
- Darren
yes, incorporating that explanation as well, thanks
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
very clear explanation. spot on.
- Josh Fraser
Awesome. Thanks, Marshall!
- Amber Case
Pretty good. For context, I think it's important to point out that the hub in PuSH is acting as a relay. The relay is necessary largely for scaling purposes — that is, it plays a very important role, but the technology underlying the hub is extremely simple.
- Chris Messina
A better example publisher would be ReadWriteWeb, rather than FeedBurner (which would likely turn into a hub itself). Let's say RWW posts a new blog post; the blogging software then pings any number of hubs with a message: "Hey, new content here". The hub says, "Great thanks," grabs the content, and then *pushes* the content to everyone on its "subscriber" list.
- Chris Messina
RWW could send out those notifications itself, but it would be highly inefficient. It's better to have a hub handle and route all those notifications since that's *all* it would be doing.
- Chris Messina
And, it's also not unlike SMTP ("simple mail transport protocol"). The difference is that it works over Port 80 using HTTP ("hypertext transport"), which means that you can effectively "send message to URLs" — not just email accounts! Thus, http:// status.net/chrismessina could send a message to http://twitter.com/marshallk.
- Chris Messina
Chris, you're making it sound even more interesting than I was aware of.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall, I agree with you on this. Chris is indeed opening our "third-eye" on the range of use cases for this. It is a powerful "atomizing" protocol delivered with very simple underlying technology. I've been looking at XMPP, AMQP & a Comet-derivative for an application that may now be accomplished quite simply via PubSubHub / PuSH. It would also be great if Chris could also get Jyri to comment over here with his views. - http://twitter.com/AAinslie
- Alexander Ainslie
Google Suggest is so fast, it's practically ridiculous. Forget real time. This is on time. (Re: Devin Hester)
Sean McBride, Daniel Rowley, Pete Hopkins and 10 other people liked this
Note what is "hot" bumps to the top. Next week, this is likely more normal.
- Louis Gray
seriously though, google onebox + suggest = real-time web search startup killer imho.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Gives new meaning to "devin hester fantasy" and "devin hester highlights."
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Google Suggest TMI
- Jesse Stay
Funny to see there's a poll on the link: "Devin Hester's rear is... Looking good OR Needing some work? We simply report, you still decide!"
- ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,
Last time I was impressed by it was to see one of my friends remember one anime's original Japanese name, he got it after a lot of tries from the suggestions, bouncing from one letter to the next, hoping to get to that next level, 5th, 6th letter: YEAH, I got it, it's.. that case is indeed a lot simpler since its design and ajax-type features.
- ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,
My 1st draft explanation of Activity Streams:
beersage, Chris Messina, Lora Lufark and 11 other people liked this
Everybody talks about filtering the real-time stream of information online but the Activity Streams community is the place where those conversations go on between leading engineers at the world's biggest and smallest social networks, with the goal of replacing the "walled garden" model of social networking with an open, interoperable communication marketplace. If Activity Streams succeeds, you will be able to subscribe to and filter the activities of your friends across multiple different networks, without having to sign-up for or even ever have heard of those other networks. This is almost the equivelent of AT&T phones being able to make calls to Verizon phones. Of rail-transport companies being able to ship goods across the country over different railroad networks - because the rails for the trains to run on are the same size. It's different though, because of the granular filtering by type of activity. Applications built on top of Activity Streams will allow the equivilent of a...
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- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Can't wait. And no redundancies, please.
- Laura Norvig
Will be interesting to see how much granularity over permissions the content creators will have. Will I have to just choose "yes" or "no" that anyone who is connected to me anywhere will be allowed to see my stuff? How could greater control work - seems complicated.
- Laura Norvig
Seems a fair point Laura.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Here's a fractal I use that may be useful as a template for Activity Streams... 1) interest-generating opener 2) background on current threats/tension to resolve 3) opportunity or vision of a better state 4) strategy w/steps to get there 5) issues to solve before accepting strategy 6) next steps by stakeholders
- Mark Frazier
This is awesome Marshall. I'm wondering whether we broaden the concept beyond messaging to decentralize the social graph itself, so app developers can leverage existing relationships without having to build on top of a facebook or a twitter...(or perhaps that is implied here?)
- Tony Zito
Marshall ... thanks for the initial explanation... I've been intrigued by all the references to Activity Streams and http://activitystrea.ms/ by people I know and trust - I just haven't had the time to join another mailing list. Just yesterday I was on the site trying to understand more and reading Chris Messina's almost-year-old post: http://factoryjoe.com/blog...
- Dan York
Will this "first draft" evolve into a RWW post?
- Dan York
Dan, it's for our forthcoming research report on the real-time web and its future. Preorders avail at http://www.readwriteweb.com/reports...
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Do you have a pointer to an example activity stream feed?
- Dave Winer
there's an example at the bottom of http://wiki.developer.myspace.com/index...
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
I should find a better example than that, a live one to include in article.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Interesting. I've been unplugged from the feed / activity space for a while now. Makes me want to read up more on Activity Streams.
- mikepk
That would be the first thing a developer would look for, something live they could build an app on.
- Dave Winer
Tom's activity feed URL at MySpace is http://api.myspace.com/v1... but MySpace API authentication is required - looking for a live and publicly accessible one
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
aha! cliqset doesn't require authentication to see theirs, http://cliqset.com/feed...
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
I wish more specifications came with live, official, reference implementations.
- mikepk
Dear Everyone, why must you CC license your Flickr photos NONCOMMERCIAL?? I would like to use them on RWW.
Kol Tregaskes, Marcel Weiß, Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah and 4 other people liked this
Because if you're going to use their content to make your site more appealing, increase readership, and increase revenue, they want to be compensated for it?
- Ken Sheppardson
SHOW ME THE MUNNIES!
- Glen Mistletoe
Because photographers deserve to be paid?
- cecily
tech community photographers don't tend to offer turnkey purchasing options for their photographs of the people I want to post photos of. do they?
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
But if it's worth it to you - and if you're looking at the photos on flickr - why not just contact the photographer directly to see if they'll work out a way for you to purchase the photo? Not that I'm any kind of great artist by any stretch of the imagination, but I license all my stuff non-commercial, but for people who have asked (nicely), I usually let them use the work free of charge. Like my mom used to say, "You don't ask, you don't get."
- cecily
there's simply not time for that in blogging. If I have to pay for something, I need 5 to 10 minute turn-around time max
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Then I would suggest you take your own photos or use Zemanta. I have a non-com on my photos, but for most people who ask nicely, I let them use for free. Otherwise, yes, I'm getting paid.
- Admiral Anika
What Anika said. If you want other people to work around your timelines, then put them on a retainer or something.
- cecily
i find this funny... ken is exactly right, but i get marshall's situation and frustration
- Chris Heath
well, another factor is that a lot of people are fine with a site like ReadWriteWeb using their photos with attribution but they put non-commercial conditions on for larger companies.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Funny thing is, I wouldn't consider a photo's use on a blog post as a commercial use. But perhpas I'm in the minority.
- s t e v e
well Steven, the blog does make money, it's how I make my living. and if there was a really simple way to use community members' photos and pay them for it, then I would. since I don't know of a way to do so, then best condition for me is attribution and payment with a link
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
from IM
What's the license that RWW is published under? Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see any CC designation.
- John Dupuis
Do you use microstock services like istockphoto.com at all, Marshall?
- Ken Sheppardson
John, yes, we've certainly discussed CC but haven't moved on it yet. None the less, with text you can sample what we've written and just give attribution. With photos?
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall, you could use the EXIF data to embed a link to the original photo.
- Panayotis Vryonis
Re stock photo services, i tend to need pictures of particular people. See for example a CC search for this fella I wrote about today http://www.flickr.com/search... vs a CC Commcercial use allowed search http://www.flickr.com/search... :(
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
I could swear someone created a service to solve this exact problem, but I guess Flickr is always going to dwarf any such offering.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Seems like there's an opportunity for a third party service here... something that used the Flickr API and/or integrated with all the different photo sharing services. A matchmaking service to hook up folks like RWW who want to use and are willing to pay for photographs and photographers who might not already have the infrastructure in place to sell their work.
- Ken Sheppardson
agreed.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
In fact, it seems like it'd be an interesting little add-on to a stock service like istockphoto. You identify an image you'd like to use, and they facilitate the transaction... hm...
- Ken Sheppardson
You guys are talking about Zemanta, which I mentioned above already. http://www.zemanta.com/
- Admiral Anika
I'm talking about a service that allows content consumers to pay content producers i.e. photographers for their images where the photographer hasn't already set up some sort of ecommerce capability like that offered by Smugmug, Zenfolio, or a bunch of other professional photographer-oriented sites. Zemanta does that?
- Ken Sheppardson
Zemanta does that, but gives you free images to use in blog posts. Did you see the link?
- Admiral Anika
Zemanta allows you to purchase images to use in your blog posts?
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Heh. Good point.
- s t e v e
Besides, that's what that new app called Viewfinder is for. Brilliant piece of work.
- David Chartier
from iPhone
I tend to agree with Scoble about the "forum problem", but at the same time I really like seeing comments. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think it's less of an issue if you keep groups relatively small. re: http://scobleizer.com/2009...
Nicola Greco, Marc Dong, John Serra and 81 other people liked this
I think the current FriendFeed approach is close to optimal. Do you not see it that way?
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
FF has the inherant ability for the user to take control, both of what they see and the comments they allow. If a user is judicious in their lists and/or filters they should see mostly relevent content (IF that's what they actually want to see). The ability for a poster to moderate comments on their own post gives us the ability to avoid trolls/spam and/or steer the conversation (again,...
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- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Scoble and other "super users" have this problem much more than regular people because they have thousands of subscribers. This is also part of the reason that Twitter probably works better for celebrities -- it's more of a broadcast channel.
- Paul Buchheit
They could have a million subscribers and it wouldn't be an issue, Paul: turn off comments on his FF posts and it would be all broadcast all the time. It's the number of people they choose to subscribe TO that is the issue. To be honest, it's like someone walking into a football stadium and then complaining that it's too loud. If one chooses to follow thosuands of people one must surely expect that the amount of 'noise' is going to increase.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
One thing that was tossed around a while back was the ability to disable comments from anyone you're not subscribed to: that'd allow those with a lot of subscribers to have high-signal conversations that their subscribers can still see and gain value from.
- Mark Trapp
Perhaps he'd like a 'hide user' button similar to FB? This would prevent the "brings people into YOUR life that YOU DID NOT INVITE!" effect... of course the conversation could be rather disjointed. Maybe a small 'additional comments hidden' status that would show them when desired... Of course, without the conversations, FF == twitter?
- Eric Borisch
Paul, can you help me test something? :)
- directeur
The features that would make FF optimal would be to let users follow each other's hides and blocks. For most users this would be a nice, small improvement. For users like scobleizer it might make a huge difference. Of course, implementation details matter.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
The problem is that we don't keep groups relatively small. There are always those who are like me who like to connect, for one, but even normal people add tons of people to their groups. It's just natural. I remember I was first to add 1,000 people to my Twitter account and people thought I was weird. Now thousands of people do that.
- Robert Scoble
One thing with Facebook is they capped it at 5,000 friends. Which kept it from being used by super-connectors but also caused it to be seen as a place where you talk with just your real life friends. Now that public pages are coming on strong, we're seeing that change.
- Robert Scoble
Bruce: the FriendFeed approach is far from optimal. Many, many people told me they don't like joining a forum and like just lurking instead, which is why they chose Twitter (Tim O'Reilly is not the only one who told me this). Tim Robbins likes that on Twitter he can listen to his heros. He sees it as a learning engine. Those of us here love FriendFeed because it lets us talk. But it definitely turns off lots of people.
- Robert Scoble
Paul: the solution is to let us toggle comments on and off. Give the USER CONTROL. If they just want to listen to their friends, hide all the other noise. But then give us who like commenting ability to turn that back on.
- Robert Scoble
You have the ability to toggle comments on and off: Edit -> Disable Comments.
- Mark Trapp
Robert, comments _are_ content.
- directeur
Mark: that is on a PER ITEM BASIS though. Totally useless for what we're talking about.
- Robert Scoble
directeur: yes, but they are content a LOT of people don't want to see or deal with.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, but then you'll be a megaphone broadcasting "your" views.
- directeur
Robert has the same comments (or the same potential) on his blog as he does on FriendFeed, so I don't think it's the comments themselves. I think it's the fact that FriendFeed makes comments almost on equal level as the original post, instead of burying them way down at the bottom of a page or requiring a click to view. Out of sight, out of mind, right?
- Daniel Sims
Nothing in the API precludes someone from writing a FriendFeed client that hides all the comments so you just see a river of feed items. That's how Twhirl, AlertThingy, and all the native iPhone apps implement FriendFeed.
- Mark Trapp
I have two arms. I barely use my left one. Please cut it off!
- directeur
Turning comments off entirely would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you could authorize other users to delete comments on your items, you could minimize the forum problem.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
directeur: that's right. That's what most professional publishers want.
- Robert Scoble
I really think the "comments are awesome, why would you ever want to get rid of comments" argument falls on deaf ears at this point. The solution ought to be how to turn off comments if you want to get Scoble (or the people he's saying he represents) back on the FriendFeed train, or to say they're not worth it. I do think if it weren't for the comments, there'd be at least a half dozen other things Scoble or people like him would come up with to not like FriendFeed at this point.
- Mark Trapp
I like the idea of having another options to disable comments for people you're not subscribed to. That way you can allow conversation, but limit it to people you "know" if it makes you more comfortable or limits the noise. I think you should have the ability to set the option as a default for all new posts but be able to override it on a post-by-post basis: 1) public comments 2)...
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- Lindsay
Her Linday-ness: I want that but it would be hard to design.
- Robert Scoble
Mark, I think you make a valid point but then the question becomes: if there are no comments, is FF still the best medium to use? If so, then the ability to turn off comments on one's entire feed should be easy enough to code and implement. I suspect, though, that all things being equal (meaning: there's no ability to comment on an item) FF would no longer be the best medium for a broadcaster.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Mark: I don't think these people will consider FriendFeed at this point. Too much momentum over on Twitter. Look at the news brands: http://twitter.com/Scoblei... you're not going to get them to switch off of Twitter at this point. Sorry. That game is over.
- Robert Scoble
I think the real game is how does Facebook evolve?
- Robert Scoble
The real game is an open decentralized solution. yes, I'm a dreamer.
- directeur
Which leads everyone to wonder why you're trying to nitpick a feature like this, or base your argument on the lack of the feature. The real reason why you (and others like you) aren't into FriendFeed isn't because of the forum problem or the lack of a feature, it's because you think Twitter is better and that's where everyone is. That's fine: that's a great argument. The rest of it is inconsequential to that argument, and wouldn't invalidate it even if you got your way. So what's the point?
- Mark Trapp
I've been talking with a lot of brands and celebrities and regular people. For public studying they like Twitter better. That has Facebook wondering what it will be in the future.
- Robert Scoble
Mark: sorry, but I spent two years talking to thousands of people about FriendFeed and I'm just passing along why they didn't like it. Take that feedback or leave it. Your choice.
- Robert Scoble
Mark: did you speak at dozens of conferences about FriendFeed and Twitter? Did you show hundreds of tech influentials FriendFeed and listen to their feedback?
- Robert Scoble
But your feedback doesn't correlate to the real reason why you, and the people you say you represent, are saying why you won't ever use FriendFeed. You said there's nothing anyone could do to get people to use FriendFeed.
- Mark Trapp
Mark: if I want to listen to ONLY tech influentials, I can on Twitter. I can't on Facebook. I can't on FriendFeed. http://twitter.com/Scoblei...
- Robert Scoble
Robert, if you're going to pull the "don't you know who I am?" crap, it falls on deaf ears. Let's have a constructive conversation on what you're trying to talk about.
- Mark Trapp
Can't you make lists in FF?
- Andrizzle Gizzle
Sure you can: you can import feeds and lists on FriendFeed.
- Mark Trapp
Mark: times change and at this point it would be hard to get anyone to take FriendFeed seriously. That said, I believe that it IS possible to move people from Facebook to Twitter or Twitter to Facebook, so THAT is the real battlefront.
- Robert Scoble
any comment thread about 20+ without threading and community promotion/demotion becomes difficult to participate in (for me). Though there is a difference between discussing the radiator on a 94 Subaru and the nature of discussion forums.
- Hayes Haugen
Robert: is the problem really comments or the fact that each time an item gets commented, the items pops back at the top of the list? Regarding the noise, I think that the "problem" with friendfeed is that it was much easier for people to plug in automated feeds and that as a result, there was less of an explicit action. I do not know how other people feel about this but I really miss...
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- Edwin Khodabakchian
Mark: OK, show me your public list the way I did on Twitter. You can't do that here, sorry.
- Robert Scoble
Hayes: BING BING BING.
- Robert Scoble
Ok, so it's not about who you read, it's who you can show that you are reading.
- Andrizzle Gizzle
Bing goes the internet! lol
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Sure Twitter has a lot of momentum now, but how quickly the winds change. Frankly, it's a shame that FF is going to be neglected... I wish that someone with as much motivation and insight as Paul and the original team could take it over now that FB has consumed them. There is still SO MUCH potential in this platform that it is depressing to see it squandered. @Robert - I don't think it...
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- Lindsay
Robert, I don't use public lists: I believe you read my blog post about why I don't. But Hutch Carpenter does, and here's his FriendFeed public list on Innovation Management: http://friendfeed.com/innovat...
- Mark Trapp
Robert, who do you call "influentials"? Do they talk "tech" all the day? Isn't it unhuman? Let's go back to spring/summer 2008, and redefine "smart" for me, please :)
- directeur
Edwin: the problem is on FriendFeed it has the chat problem -- it gets noisy and gets noisy fast.
- Robert Scoble
directeur: influentials are people who influence. I picked them. Shoot me.
- Robert Scoble
The noise is largely proportional to the circles you're in. If you put yourself in a huge room, it will be a loud room.
- Kevin Fox
Robert, do you remember the "MOAR NOISE" phrase? It was THE reason why I built NoiseRiver. Filters, I used to say when you were always saying: MORE NOISE!
- directeur
Kevin: exactly. But on FriendFeed the room gets big VERY QUICKLY because as more people join they drag in their followers with them.
- Robert Scoble
Facebook has the same problem. While we're chatting here, tons of tech news diversity have swooped by.
- Robert Scoble
So Robert, should there be something built in to "warn" others of becoming "chatty". Something that says: "This comment is irrelevant. You may post again when you have something relevant and germane to our discussion"? So WHO makes those distinctions and judgements?
- Melanie Reed
Compare this chat to http://twitter.com/Scoblei... which one brought more information to you? The chat is more fun, cause we're engaged, but it's noisy and if you don't care about it, a waste of time.
- Robert Scoble
Melanie: in a chat room you can't control people that way.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: True, but [big number]*[average number] is far larger than [average number]*[average number]
- Kevin Fox
Hayes you are correct. Slashdot has actually had the best discussion forums for more than ten years because it has threading and community moderation. Its not a trendy social networking site though so no one notices. If you had a social network site where you post topics but with Slashdot like forums it would rock. Only down side is moderators tend to inject bias but /. has good signal after moderation kicks in
- Ed Millard
Robert, I don't care about more information. I have more than enough. :)
- Melanie Reed
Does it really have to be one or the other Robert?
- Internet's Tad
from fftogo
(Where you (scoble) are the big number)
- Kevin Fox
Kevin: the problem with FriendFeed is if you and Melanie were having a conversation it would be pretty small, right? But I follow you. The second I touch your conversation it gets big.
- Robert Scoble
If only someone could figure out how to make a room that gets big very quickly appeal to broadcasters...
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
This problem doesn't happen on the private Facebook because you have two-way friending there and a cap of 5,000. But on Facebook Pages? Absolutely. Noise baby noise!
- Robert Scoble
Bruce: broadcasters don't like any of this because there's no way to monetize. Why do you think Arrington really hated this?
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I don't care about more information. I have more than enough. :) What I would like is what Tad is implying in his comment. You know you can have "...two opposites that have learned how to blaze together" ;) And excuse me, but is wrong with a big conversation?
- Melanie Reed
"The chat is more fun, cause we're engaged, but it's noisy and if you don't care about it, a waste of time. " If someone doesn't care about it on FF, they can hide it and not see it again. Problem solved.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Chatting is not intended to provide information. It is like planning -- it is the process of chatting that is what is useful not the words that are spoken/written.
- Brian Sullivan
Thank you, Tina! and Brian!
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: I love big conversations. That's why I loved FriendFeed. But most people aren't like me.
- Robert Scoble
Tina: there are so many things going by on my screen in FriendFeed that hiding them all would take all day long.
- Robert Scoble
Robert -- why is it that you think that people are like you and things should be done for your needs?
- Brian Sullivan
FF is too busy!!
- Joe Silence is not dead
Brian: again, it's not about me.
- Robert Scoble
Robert one word: APML. I used to yell it back in 2008, no one cared. You want "filters" by personal interest.
- directeur
FreiendFeed sold ME on it two years ago. I've been trying to sell others on it. The feedback I'm giving is from OTHERS.
- Robert Scoble
The Forum Problem is a problem?
- teh Dork Knight aka Kenny
directeur: APML will never work.
- Robert Scoble
oh dear, don't hate the messenger.
- Joe Silence is not dead
Robert: who are these "others" and what are their numbers?
- Melanie Reed
Paul nailed it - Twitter is a broadcast channel. Massive amounts of subscriptions are fine there - it's all about reach. But if you want discovery, if you want to engage, then FriendFeed and FoaF is where it's all. They're NOT the same. One you can subscribe/follow as many as you want, in the other, subscription abuse will cripple your ability to view and interact.
- AJ Kohn
Finally, a thread on this subject that makes sense.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Threading may or may not help... it seemed to hurt with GoogleWave... it was so hard to follow all the tangents... of course without threading a lot of the tangents just get lost anyway. I guess I have given up on trying to catch everything... If it's important and I didn't see it the first time, eventually the concept will bubble up enough times for me to notice. That's one NICE thing about following lots of people and participating in lots of convos.
- Lindsay
why won't APML, or something like it, work? i missed that memo
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Robert, go say this to Last.fm or the BBC :-) Smart recommendation engines are the future
- directeur
FriendFeed may make some audience/discussion leak out, but also makes audience leak in through seeing what your friends are talking about. Arrington may be mostly concerned about the leak out. Other broadcasters may be looking for the leak in.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Marshall, me neither! :)
- directeur
Also, the meta around the content in FF (likes, comments) is what helps turns random data into information. It's annotated and qualified.
- AJ Kohn
Lindsay: true
- Hayes Haugen
Thank you, AJ, yes. And you can sort that out when you want to on your own time. That's the utility of it.
- Melanie Reed
Perhaps one solution to the 'forum problem' is to allow posters to selectively choose who can participate in the discussion but still be viewable to the public.
- Rodfather
So maybe the real question is, why do some people prefer conversation over broadcasting and vice versa? Is the broadcast-mentality simply a matter of popularity (the inability to reciprocate all the connections, so just broadcast instead) or is the effort it takes to connect with people on a more meaningful basis a major turn-off? Or is it just the tools that people use and what makes it easier for them?
- Lindsay
Rodfather, this will bring wars. Trust me. I'm not a commercial object. So you want to SHOUT and ask me to close my mouth? :) Moreover, close comments, other threads will be started and the noise you wanted to avoid will be even greater. The Streisand Effect, anyone? :)
- directeur
For example: this discussion has 80+ comments and rolling. I don't mind that at all. I am engaged. I am also updating a web page on our web site as I do it and switching over to grade 30 some PRF's for students on the play Macbeth. I am not having any trouble with the "forum problem" or any "chattiness" I learned the "ropes" of FF when I joined and accepted that it as it was.
- Melanie Reed
To me FF turns data (the river of content out there) into information (the good stuff - explained). The tool set FF provides is superior in this way - but it takes time to dial in the right set of filters to apply to the data set (which changes!) and many simply overwhelm the great filtering system they've provided.
- AJ Kohn
A lot of people don't want to put in the time and effort to make the tool work for them like you, AJ and Melanie. I can empathize with that. I think it also has to serve their base inclination of either broadcasting or conversation, and the tool choice is also influenced by whether they already are part of a community on it or not. Most people won't leave their community even if it us using the less appropriate tool for their inclination.
- Lindsay
directeur, then those people can make their own thread and allow everyone to comment. I'm thinking of in case there's a roundtable event where certain 'experts' in a field can have a thread to discuss a topic among themselves without worrying about others cluttering the thread.
- Rodfather
AJ, indeed - the task is to build new concepts with and for filters. Filters, not to shut stuff out, but to mix it better to create a constant flow of narratives.
- zeroinfluencer
AJ, is it more that FF provides the platform for the users to turn that data into information? The users are integral to FF. Now with Twitter you can program a week's worth of tweets (I have heard) but I don't wish to do that. Facebook... you could almost do that-although it does have engagement -you could certainly use it without. But FF runs on an engagement engine
- Melanie Reed
Marshall: I don't trust automatic systems to guess what I'm going to be interested in next. Never seen a system yet that works. But we should debate this.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, we should debate it! The robot that makes all my decisions for me says it's quite likely I would enjoy doing that! ;)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
That's getting into intelligent agents and AI once full blown
- Melanie Reed
if you ask me, and you don't, the problem has always been lack of comment moderation and threading. Too many users isn't a problem if no one sees them. Slashdot was one of the first doing this, using an interface which is actually very similar to FF and it seems to work there.
- Vincent van Wylick
Web tech needs to look outside their dev environments for richer influences in filter design: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- zeroinfluencer
Is the problem that Robert is looking for a single service solution. I see the same 'content' on Twitter and FriendFeed but I scan Twitter for 'raw information' and go to FriendFeed to 'discuss' it with others. I watch the news at home on TV but I talk about it with my friends or work colleagues around the water cooler or coffee shop table. I am comfortable existing in several spaces
- Johnny Worthington
from iPhone
@Lindsay: I don't know. I'd rather educate people on the power that FF can provide with a little effort. Or, that it actually doesn't take LOTS of subscriptions. Max it at Dunbar's number (which is what I do for my home feed) and you'd be fine.
- AJ Kohn
+++ Johnny Scotty would be proud of you: The right tool for the job
- Melanie Reed
@David: Exactly! My home feed - I tweak it. I use people like Robert and Rob Diana and Michael Fruchter and Anthony Citrano and Thomas Hawk and numerous others to bring a mix of themes and concepts into my feed.
- AJ Kohn
So are we saying that its not the tool itself...but HOW it is or is not used that maxes utility? If so I agree!
- Melanie Reed
@Melanie: Yes, the users are the key. The users are the filters. http://www.blindfiveyearold.com/soylent... And the engagement provides a rich annotation and a secondary level of filtering. So yes, users and their engagement absolutely matter.
- AJ Kohn
Sure, yes, how you use it maxes utility. But it also helps if it's suited to how you WANT to use it... if not it's a struggle. And people don't like to struggle, even if it's possible to make something do what you want it to... easier to use another tool if it fits your purpose better. FriendFeed fits my purpose so it's not a struggle for me... but for someone with a more broadcasting mindset than a conversational one, it's going to be tougher.
- Lindsay
Vincent, most long-time FriendFeeders have spoken strongly against any sort of moderation/rating system for comments. No one wants mobs of people trying to control what other people can see like what happens on Digg. It's why every time the topic of 'Unlike' comes up, people rise up to talk it down because it creates an aura of competition and negativity.
- Akiva Moskovitz
AJ, yes! users are the filters.
- Melanie Reed
Akiva +++
- Melanie Reed
Anybody use Mailchimp here? It is tangential to the discussion. They have a cracker jack built in user educational system that monitors and makes usage suggestions.
- Melanie Reed
Is lunchtime finally over yet?
- Hayes Haugen
I'd love to peek in on the recommendation engine discussions. I'm in the 'they don't work camp' myself but I'm open to being convinced and perhaps technology has approached a point where it could work but ... from working in eCommerce I've seen it fail time and time again. Random factors, contextual issues etc.
- AJ Kohn
@Melanie: Know of Mailchimp but don't use. The 'monitor and makes usage suggestions' sounds interesting though.
- AJ Kohn
AJ, that's because the devs didn't pay attention when their instructors (ahem) were teaching it to them. ;)
- Melanie Reed
Another point I'd like to make is that no one is forcing anyone to read the comments here. If people want a broadcast-only medium, it's fairly easy not to click on the 'x more comments' link. Unfortunately, Robert makes a painful observation: he played FriendFeed cheerleader for two years and the people who needed to take the bait didn't or did but then cut loose. That pretty much means...
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- Akiva Moskovitz
Johnny: I am comfortable with all of these too, but it's not about me. But, anyway, the business battle now is between Facebook and Twitter and it'll be interesting to see the choices that Paul's team makes and how those compare with the team NK over at Twitter is making. Then the market will choose which one is best.
- Robert Scoble
Akiva: If I were at Facebook and knew that they could turn into the next MySpace I'd put every single engineering minute onto Facebook. Wouldn't you?
- Robert Scoble
Like I said before, there is still SO MUCH potential here... and it's a shame to see it squandered. I think there are a lot of ways it could be taken to the next level. For sure it could be a contender to Twitter with a few enhancements, but fat chance of that now that there is no longer a dev team, and that it's "parent" is a competitor.
- Lindsay
Robert, here's a good example: You want to debate intelligent recommendation agents? Allright, I know that you know Chris Saad. Chris is a very cool guy in fact! But do you know Deniz Oktar? Deniz, who is not as popular as Chris, is a SMART Turkish guy too and works on the same subject. If you limit your view to "popular" people, you'll definitely miss him. And debating such a subject without alternative ideas likes Deniz's or humbly mine, won't be perfect :)
- directeur
Not sure, Robert. Is turning into the next MySpace a good thing for you or a bad thing? For me, it'd be bad.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, go take a look at (and experience) mailchimp's monitor and make usage suggestion system. It's adaptable for a number of scenarios
- Melanie Reed
I think the business battle (other than the marketing to consumers end of it) will be occupied and won by Wave. Facebook, Twitter and FriendFeed are mere toys in that world.
- Brian Sullivan
Melanie, I'm not complaining about a solution that MailChimp could provide. I'm fine with FriendFeed as it is (for the most part).
- Akiva Moskovitz
directeur: most people choose news brands to curate and find new people that will have something valuable to say. See http://twitter.com/Scoblei... for instance. That already is TOO MUCH so telling people to get more people or more things into their lives just isn't going to cut it for most people.
- Robert Scoble
Allowing public panels where only the influential can talk certainly would have a useful role, Its just like panels at conferences. A lot of people would no doubt like to just follow the influential in these forums. On the down side it would make the already influential more so and it would probably lose some audience if it was done a lot because there is no democratic engagement. The people who don't spend all their time cultivating their fame and networks do say interesting things too.
- Ed Millard
directeur: and, anyway. if he's in Turkey and not in San Francisco he's far less likely to influence tech in a major way. So I disagree.
- Robert Scoble
(FYI - look at this conversation and tell me where else anything like this could take place.)
- AJ Kohn
No, we're completely boring and worthless, Ed. We're not worth paying attention to. I mean, who wants to see a picture of our kids? ;)
- Lindsay
IRC or a phpBB messageboard!
- Joe Silence is not dead
Akiva, I meant for those who might struggle "getting" FF but would enjoy and benefit from it once they do. There's an "on ramp" to FF that rivals North Corridor Dallas coming out of an apt complex on to 50mph+ 4 lane traffic. Some of us are better at that than others, but you still see a lot of cars on the road. :)
- Melanie Reed
There has also been a lack of creative uses using the FF tool sets. Good uses of the tools inspires participation + it's easy to criticize -- harder to create.
- zeroinfluencer
@Robert: Whoa, whoa. Weren't you arguing that adding 8K new people from Twitter Lists was a good thing? Is more better, or worse?
- AJ Kohn
+++David
- Melanie Reed
@David: Good point, no real developer platform. That's been a big boon for both Facebook and Twitter.
- AJ Kohn
Robert, yet he DOES. You just aren't into that speciality :) If you think that every "tech" thing must happen in SF you really miss A LOT.
- directeur
Woah, Robert, so you are saying anyone who doesn't live in SF doesn't count in a tech discussion? That's a little self centered isn't it?
- Ed Millard
I understand it but I really dislike any discussions where the topic seems to be "how can we turn this thing that the people who use it like into something that people who don't use it and would only use it for selfish reasons like?" Screw them. If something's not as "techy" as Slashdot and it's more chaotic because the comments aren't threaded like Slashdot and there's no moderation...
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- Mark H
Lindsay, I want to see a picture of your kids. I only wish I had some to show back. ;)
- Melanie Reed
Ed: you are NOT a careful reader.
- Robert Scoble
Robert's not saying that those ideas can't happen, or that a true revelation can't come from elsewhere, but that ... the likelihood that someone outside of SF to influence tech is less. The Capital of the Internet is SF. I'd agree with that. But that doesn't mean it'll always stay that way, nor does it mean that tech from other areas can't be influential. (least that's how I read it.)
- AJ Kohn
OK I just read it, you still said if you don't live in SF there is very little chance you will have any influence on tech. If you have no influence then you either have nothing to say on the subject, or even if you do have something to say it wont matter.
- Ed Millard
Hrm, I think the whole thing is overblown. My personal FF landing page still has as much utility as my first day (if not more). Bleh, whatever.
- Chieze Okoye
@AJ The FF API is beautiful, I don't think dev communities saw the richness that you can create with the aggregation of FF streams. A few valley PR oriented bloggers pushed 'conversation' as FF's 'killer app' - whereas, the realtime aggregation streams and republishing of content is radical and unique.
- zeroinfluencer
Well I'm pretty sure all the people in Seattle, Toronto, Paris, London, Moscow,Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Beijing, Bangalore, Boulder, etc. probably disagree
- Ed Millard
@David: I'll take your word on the API and wouldn't doubt it given the FF team's chops. But fostering usage, that community - that's where things may have gotten shaky. Too few people leveraging it. It could still resolve back to an inability to really grasp what FF can do for them.
- AJ Kohn
AJ, I think you're on to something. Back in the day, usability (including general user and disabled) use to be a well-known topic. Universities made it a part of the curriculum. Everything before and including e-commerce got the once over. But it occurs that the latest generation (including GLS and SM) have outpaced the community standards for usability. It's really the wild west again-...
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- Melanie Reed
Akiva: I suspect the noise problem Robert's describing from others isn't that comment threads get too long. It's that items keep popping to the top as new comments show up, when they don't want to see the new comments. I don't see any way around that except a separate client. It would take too much away from the FriendFeed experience for the default interface not to work this way.
- Bruce Lewis
Mark, I didn't mean to suggest /. is the only solution to the forum problem. If you have really big forum discussions /. is time tested way to control noise and raise the signal level. On the other hand it would probably be a horrible solution for intimate and friendly discussions among friends. Someone earlier Lindsey? kind of had a good suggestion. When you make a post have a row of option buttons and let the poster set the kind of forum for that thread, broadcast, panel, open, modded, thredded, not..
- Ed Millard
Ed: I specifically said "far less likely." I didn't say there is very little chance. But, seriously, this is an argument for another thread. Lots of people think they have influence but actually don't have as much. For instance, I love to think I have influence on Facebook but I'm far less likely to influence that then Paul Buchheit is. Facts are facts.
- Robert Scoble
Chieze glad you like FriendFeed. Me too. It's awesome. But that doesn't mean much to the rest of the world.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, how often do you use "Add This"? It's germane :)
- Melanie Reed
OK we will agree to disagree on that one and drop it. I've lived in the bay off and on, I think there are pluses and minuses to being there.
- Ed Millard
Melanie: "Add This" being the "Add Photos" at top of FriendFeed? Not as much as I should.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: No this service: http://www.addthis.com/ This is fast becoming the SM share button for many websites. Ours uses it. And FF is on it. Take a look at the entire list
- Melanie Reed
FriendFeed's feature set will mean a lot to the rest of the world when it's fully integrated into Facebook in 2011.
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: I don't think it'll take that long.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, you may be right, in which case FriendFeed is a relevant thing to look at. Maybe it isn't actually too far ahead of its time.
- Bruce Lewis
Just like Lisp can make you a better programmer in other languages, FriendFeed can make you a better thinker when writing about other social networks. Popularity isn't everything, even for a blogger.
- Bruce Lewis
You mean, it's not all about attention? :D
- Lindsay
Who really knows why Twitter got all the traction? Does Scoble? I very much doubt it. I think there's a great effort going into finding a logical explanation for Twitter massive success and FriendFeeds more modest gains. My own best guess is that it has more to do with the madness of crowds than it does with any limitation in FriendFeed. Twitter had a decent enough foothold already by...
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- JSLeFanu
from FreshFeed
Twitter got the traction because Twitter's easy. It requires very little effort to get into and it requires even less to participate. It's the same reason why YouTube comments are the cesspool of the Internet and MetaFilter's comments are not: anyone can sit around and watch videos all day and then trash talk them but you make people pay to comment and you'll weed out the chaff almost...
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- Akiva Moskovitz
David: I was there from early days on Twitter and studied how it grew. I know more than you might think. Remember, I was the first person to follow 1,000 people there and I was the 13,800ish user to join.
- Robert Scoble
This link is the most illuminating one on FF traction at the time of the buyout. It indicates FF was just starting to regain traction after it had stalled out for a while and it suggests if maybe FF had stuck it out a while longer things might have changed. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- Ed Millard
Twitter got hot in the early days because of Leo Laporte and because of SXSW and because it was goofy fun way for tech influencers to talk to their friends. It just kept growing from there. Another factor in addition to simplicity (Akiva's right there) is the API. Tons of clients and tools and services are built on top of it. FriendFeed got nearly none in comparison.
- Robert Scoble
The difference may be luck of the draw ( a la Gladwell)
- Brian Sullivan
People had to build tons of clients, tools and services for Twitter because the default web UI is so bad.
- Ed Millard
Ed: what that graph doesn't show you is what we now know. Google Wave sucked a lot of attention of geek influentials away (IE Hype) and Facebook's Connect is running away with another game. I went into FriendFeed the week they decided to sell and asked them because I knew Twitter had new features coming that would make FriendFeed less interesting. I think the FriendFeed team looked at the competition and decided to fold.
- Robert Scoble
How could I have ignored the API? It's like Firefox's plug-ins: it's the only thing that makes Twitter usable for many users. Without it, they wouldn't touch it. Heck, if it weren't for Tweetie 2, I wouldn't touch it either.
- Akiva Moskovitz
And Facebook's Connect platform is getting incorporated everywhere. I think FriendFeed was hoping to become part of the general web, like what we did over on http://building43.com and that just wasn't going to happen because Facebook's Connect platform is rocking and rolling now. In fact, I made a fundamental blunder by not going with Facebook on Building43. If I had, our traffic would have been much higher than it is now.
- Robert Scoble
You can be sure that once CNN and other assorted media outlets started plugging Twitter it was game over. Once the band wagon was rolling every "personality" was going to hop on. It is a little disturbing that Miley Cyrus has now joined the "everyone should delete their Twitter accounts" camp.
- Ed Millard
David Hall +1 Steven Berlin Johnson would be a good reference - the persistence of babble is incredible valuable in phatic communications. FF, through the web interface hides a lot of that. Instead, the babble was more bookmark centric and less about 'having a sandwich'. That's why you have, on the whole, better conversation threads on FF, and ending up having to duck out of the way of...
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- zeroinfluencer
Disturbing REALLY????? My word, Miley is absolutely right <sarcasm/>
- Roberto Bonini
To paraphrase Louis Gray's wife, "nerds in startups are fickle". I speculate they had a lot of self doubt when they stalled out prior to that up tick, and decided to sell just about the time FF was starting to take off again. Someone waves $50 million at you during a period of self questioning that is a potent motivator, I think Zuckerberg saw that and he did nip a potential competitor in the bud.
- Ed Millard
But all the above comments is about public sharing. I use FF a lot for project planning and development - it's fast - you can discuss items with good archive search, and you can post media. I wonder how many people use FF in this way, and ignore the public babble?
- zeroinfluencer
Having read most of this thread (and Robert, comments are VERY valueble) the"forum problem" is NP-complete. Comments are valuable becuase seeing people reason is often just as enlightening, if not more so, than the original information.
- Roberto Bonini
Ed - mind you, there's only a few ways you can get to the helm of the FB API design and product development. :) Who's to say this isn't all going according to plan?
- zeroinfluencer
Roberto: me and you agree on that. In my research most people do not. They see these things as noise. But, if you make the comments toggle on and off we BOTH win! Plus, comments REALLY help search!
- Robert Scoble
Ed: correction, it was $50 million.
- Robert Scoble
Robert you keep talking about "your research". Is this anything more than anecdotal conversations?
- Brian Sullivan
David, Well maybe Paul and Co. are doing a trojan horse on FB but what I've read about Zuckerberg he doesn't seem likely to relinquish control of anything he cares about and I am skeptical you are going to turn FB in to FF with their entrenched user base.
- Ed Millard
@Scoble you're arguing from authority again. I think on a broadcast platform like Twitter that's an easier one to pull off. On Twitter it's a big "so what" if you've posted a load of BS because most people will simply miss any challenge to your "content." Post the same on FriendFeed and you get tackled and you get tackled in public. Reasonable enough grounds to explain your current stance and certainly as good as any reason I've heard you put forward yourself.
- JSLeFanu
Robert, I stand corrected, and it is corrected, this editing your posts thing is one of FF's scarier features.
- Ed Millard
OPEN QUESTION: Is FF gaining or losing users? I see very little here now - but I'm told user numbers are going through the roof.
- Jim Connolly
Ed: tell me one thing. What's the biggest difference between FF and FB? There's already not as much difference as you'd might think. The one thing I miss over there? Real time search.
- Robert Scoble
Twitter got big because it's about ego. Look at me, Me, ME! Twitter flourished because people like to talk about themselves. (FF is not, which is why it hasn't gained nearly as much traction.) It was developed as an update service. It has evolved into ... something else. As for comments, they are invaluable.
- AJ Kohn
Jim: user numbers are not going through the roof here. I don't know anyone credible who has said that. The registered numbers are going up, but the active numbers are going down.
- Robert Scoble
AJ: FriendFeed is just as much about ego as Twitter is. If not more so.
- Robert Scoble
Ed, the goal is to design influentially for the web. Paul B does seem to give that ethos in his startup camp talks and general interviews. I would think FB would warm to that ideology.
- zeroinfluencer
Very true. Robert.
- Roberto Bonini
@Robert: How? Seriously, I'd like to hear your opinion.
- AJ Kohn
Robert: In other words, as people like yourself, Arrington and even those little guys like myself with a couple of thousand subscribers leave - we're being replaced by less active users. Makes sense. I used to check in on and off all day. Now, 2/3 times a week,
- Jim Connolly
Jim: not true. I don't see a lot of people joining in here and I'm watching it closely. Sorry. More people are leaving the back door than are coming in the front.
- Robert Scoble
To me the two big ones are 1) perception that it more walled garden networks and not as open though certainly it has avenues which are more open like FF 2) its home to massive quantities of apps, games, spam from people trying to get rich that hold no interest to me, though obviously many others like them. FF is probably just overlooked by that crowd, if it were bigger it would be infected with all that crap too. FF seems to mostly just be good people from my limited time here.
- Ed Millard
All User Centric Design is modeled around the ego. Good software design keeps that in mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- zeroinfluencer
AJ: Twitter is, for many people, about business now. Not ego at all. News brands: http://twitter.com/#... no ego. Tech companies: http://twitter.com/Scoblei... No ego. But here? It's ALL about ego!
- Robert Scoble
David is right.
- Robert Scoble
On Twitter the default is to show number you follow, number of followers, number of Tweets. That's all playing on ego and popularity. Nearly everything (even lists) is geared to stimulate a innate need to acquire more of something as a way to ... validate contribution or perceived influence or authority. FF does not show this in the default mode.
- AJ Kohn
Companies and brands are the most aggressive form of ego there is, and they usually are direct reflections of the ego of the company's CEO.
- Ed Millard
Alright Robert. In order to reduce the signal to noise ratio, we can do one of two things, we can use "Likes" to filter the comment stream. If I Like more posts from Robert than i do from LG, Roberts comments appear but not LG's. We can use semantics to (somehow) sort the thread and show comments relevant to the original post. (simply dumping noise isin't a solution - not all noise is noise all the time. Likewise, increasing signal in an echo chamber is fruitless)
- Roberto Bonini
@Robert: Oh, I think Twitter is a great business tool! It's a marketers paradise. But I'm not sure that's what most people believe it to be. People still think they're going to get some sort of social dialog there. I think it's why Twitter churn is so high. People get it thinking it'll be one thing and quickly find out it's another.
- AJ Kohn
+1 AJ, there are some people that use Twitter in awesome, constructive, useful, ways like Tim O'Reilly and Jay Rosen but a lot of people its pure self promotion. As for news outlets using twitter they are going to go wherever the eyeballs are, and they will go to multiple networks not just Twitter. Those are pure broadcast, no engagement, they aren't really a ringing endorsement of why Twitter is great.
- Ed Millard
I'd bet FF *would* take off (but be worse for it) if it listed how many times the content I fed got liked and commented on, and that (along with subscribers etc.) were all listed right there at the top of my home feed. And that upon signing up, I'd get suggested users based on subscriptions but also who got the most likes and comments. Yet, I don't think that's conducive to what FF really excels at.
- AJ Kohn
@Robert, biggest difference between Facebook and Friendfeed - reciprocal connections. Without a doubt. The apps, the ads, other stuff, is true, but for me the central difference, and the thing that betrays a fundamental difference of worldview between the two apps is whether or not you can follow someone's content without them having to follow you back. You can only do that on Facebook...
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- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
@Ed: I realized a long time ago that Twitter was a big Internet megaphone. And if you could get a lot of people to 'listen' to that megaphone well, that's powerful stuff. It's about Reach. Twitter gives your message reach. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see it as ... transforming.
- AJ Kohn
Those who study the art of propaganda consider reach to be everything, because following reach is influence, and following influence is control. TV is losing its reach in the Internet era so most of those "brands" and "personalites" are rushing to find a way to regain it, enter Twitter and FB. They are better because they are bidirectional.
- Ed Millard
*Noise* :)
- ashish
@Ed: I'd be interested to see more on how reach leads to influence. It often does but ... not always. Plenty of multi-million dollar ad campaigns in the graveyard as examples. Reach + ? = influence.
- AJ Kohn
Ed I think you're right. I caught that TC piece at the time too. Seems to me that the FriendFeed guys had a bit of a crisis of confidence and grabbed lunch while it was on offer. In any case I always figured FriendFeed as a place to graduate to once you'd rammed up against Twitters limitations. And, as I'm sure you know, that doesn't take long. That's how I got here. I was actually on...
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- JSLeFanu
You don't have influence until you have reach so its the prerequisite. Then it a matter of how effectively you craft the message and push the buttons in your target audience. Some people are good at that part, some aren't, some fail, some succeed.
- Ed Millard
Robert, I just wonder. Isn't twitter more about consuming the information and FF more about sharing and discussing? Look at http://twitter.com/Scoblei.... What can anyone add to that or comment on that? I agree it is getting a lot noisy in here (exhibit, this post). But not all posts will be this noisy I think.
- Amit
+1 Jandy, she answered Robert's challenge to me better than I did.
- Ed Millard
@Ed: I'm not sure. New memes start with someone small sometimes. Say ... keyboard cat ... and someone who has reach communicates that message and it goes big. So who has the influence? The creator of keyboard cat or the person to has the reach to make it go big? I find it very interesting.
- AJ Kohn
Jandy: +100. You just nailed for me why I like Twitter and FriendFeed better than Facebook. Agreed.
- Robert Scoble
Robertt, maybe this post and the scads of comments prove your point, but maybe your point is limited to your own experience due to your unique position in tech. You speak, noise follows. But that does not make Friendfeed irrelevant or useless for the average or even just left or right of average user. You have a unique experience that is going to color any forum you put your time into....
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- Martha
+++Jandy
- Melanie Reed
Well put, Jandy.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I think the forum problem is not as big in smaller more intimate groups. Recently I've been very active in the DMU group here that includes a lot of folks who've migrated here from Flickr. The relevancy is much more higher in these venues than in the main feed because it's a smaller controlled experience. I do wish though that groups were more full featured like the rest of FF though....
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- Thomas Hawk
oh of course and photo voting pools for groups would by awesome too. ;)
- Thomas Hawk
Lists are not enough. Twitter, FF and other social networks need tagging by default, then filter on list + tag. That's the element that would kill the noise and turn them into interest networks.
- howard shippin
from BuddyFeed
Martha: you might have a point if we were just talking about me. But we're not. So, try again. Again, I've talked with thousands of people about these things. They tell me they don't like the noise that public forums bring. I've been doing this for 25 years and this isn't the first time I've heard this pushback. Facebook, by the way, on its iPhone app, handles it perfectly: it hides all...
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- Robert Scoble
You all keep referring to this as either chat or comments when actually its a discussion. I think that the ability to discuss anything on Friend Feed or anywhere else for that matter IS where you learn the most. I'm not techy like most of you, I'm just an ordinary 'average' user, but I see twitter more as a 'newsreel' of info, shallow but instant, whereas Friend Feed is more a 'thrashing out of ideas and opnions, and is therefore all the richer for it.
- Sandra Large
Sandra: chat/discussion/forum/comments are all pretty much the same thing. Yes, the two are different. There CAN be lots of learning here, it's just that this is a lot noiser than other online things in some ways.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, about noise: when you or other tech influencers introduce FriendFeed, you show the things you're excited about, which tend to be big and noisy, right? And if you're the first person someone follows on FF, they're going to get a noisy first impression. The slower growth that doesn't come through tech influencers may have less of a back door.
- Bruce Lewis
And about the 25+-year-old forum problem: Moderated Usenet was great until moderators slacked off. Decentralized moderation fixes that, at least for small discussions. Larger discussions can lead to whack-a-mole (though I notice this one hasn't), but with one of the suggestions I made earlier in this conversation the number of whackers could scale with the number of moles.
- Bruce Lewis
Moderation = censorship. Censorship sucks. Give the users control to hide and block. The less censorship the better.
- Thomas Hawk
@Paul - what about a view to only see the user's posts/content ie no comments of others and no likes => then it becomes twitter like
- Kishore Balakrishnan
Come on, it's hardly messier than Facebook, since the default view only includes the first and last comment. Basically the gist I'm getting is that people who think they're important don't want to listen to people who they don't think are important. Such is the human race, I suppose.
- Victor Ganata
+++Victor hammer meets nail.
- JSLeFanu
Robert said "FB iPhone app ... hides all comments with an arrow that you can then use to expand the comments. That is so much better than this mess here that it isn't funny". Robert, I must be missing your point because FF also hides most comments until you expand them because you want to read them... Don't want to read FF comments, don't expand them, problem solved. Or are you saying FF is a "mess" because it shows first and last comment?
- Ed Millard
235 comments! I really don't want to expand *that* on FF! Is this a pain-point for anyone else?
- Space Cowboy
Not for me. If I'm interested enough in the topic or dialog I'll click the time stamp and open the post page to read everything. The text amount is comparable to a medium length blog post: if I have the time to read that I have the time to read this if it interests me.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
A typical blog post? Dragging & copying the comments only (which took about a min. of scrolling) produced 9200 words and 23 pages of text. Blog posts also tend to have a more easily read narrative.
- Vincent van Wylick
The problem is for big conversations like this one you need threading and maybe moderation, but for more normal conversations that are smaller flat is better. Allowing a switch between the two adds complexity. For big conversations FF lacks the button to reply to a specific poster so the viewer can thread, at least as an option. Much of the noise level in this conversation is due to people having to manually try to fake threading.
- Ed Millard
The threading vs. flat conversation is interesting to me - we've tried multiple times to put Disqus or Intense Debate on a film blog I write for, and every time we meet huge resistance to threading ESPECIALLY on long threads. People say they have a lot of difficulty finding the new comments when they aren't all at the top or bottom.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Why can't there be a summary fly-out with timestamps based on response rate to single comments and a "last comment made" link as well as "thread count" links and lastly, "participants in this thread" link? Collapse everything else except the initial post. The initial interface looking like this one, should always be available for those who want to "sort through". You want the...
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- Melanie Reed
Jandy, you kind of have to let the user flip between threading and flat to solve the chronology problem. Slashdot has a popup menu at the top that lets you view in "Threaded, Nested, Flat, No Comments". The down side is the UI gets progressively more complex both to implement and use unless you are going to force everyone to lowest common denominator UI.
- Ed Millard
But Ed, that's what I have against the traditional "threaded" approach: all the fork like structure. It does get complicated real fast. What's needed is somewhere a "summary" for those jumping in late to "catch up" but also the "single comment" link to democratize the discussion. Threads have all the indentation problems of trying to follow that way IF I am picturing what you mean by thread.
- Melanie Reed
+1 Ed
- 'Like' robot (frɐnc)
My other observation is this: everyone creates a "story" about the ideas and information they are taking in and immediately starts associating connections in their mind creating a mental picture whether they realize it or not when they are perceiving that information. Our user interfaces don't yet lend themselves to that especially where it come to dialogue and forums. We've accepted a...
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- Melanie Reed
Here's why you don't need indented/tangential threading: FF discussions tend to be small enough to fit in the "RAM" in one's mind. It curtails many threads that might ramble; the exception (like Paul's thread here) comes when the power of the topic/zeitgeist and vibe of a live chat going strong overrides that usual point of decay. Predictablly, one or several commenters here will start a new thread or escalate it to a blog post and summarize their thoughts based on what transpired on this stream.
- Micah Wittman
Melanie, have you used Slashdot, they did forums earlier and better than anyone. The forum starts out flat, and then starts threading. Random community moderators start modding up the insightful posts, and burying the trolls, crap, etc. Once the moderation kicks in the "summary" is all the posts that were modded up to 5 which are shown expanded. All the lower moderated stuff is there but you have to clck to see. Slashdot would suck like YouTube comments if they hadn't solved the forum problem.
- Ed Millard
It's organic, not hierarchical. As other have stated, there is as much to learn from watching the process unfold as there is to gain from end result.
- Micah Wittman
Ed, no, I haven't used Slashdot but I'm willing to give it a try. I'm pretty adaptable. But when I see a problem and it becomes "the picture" for me, in this case a circle then I know its time for the leap out of the present "prison of one idea". ;)
- Melanie Reed
Micah, its true threads are bad for small friendly forums. Some of this discussion is about what happens when the forums on "celebrity" social expert's threads get so big they overflow readers brains and they turn in to *noise*. One noise problem is organization, the other is some post and some posters are better than others in the mind of the celeb and the reader.
- Ed Millard
Slashdot dealt with most of the forum problems ten years ago, they had to to survive the trolls. The problem is their UI needs to be complex to be flexible and keep everyone happy. Their audience is also mostly geek power user. When you get to social networks the other UI school is demanding the UI be dirt simple so the unwashed masses can cope, but dirt simple mean its inflexible and it ticks off nearly everyone, especially power users. Hard problem to solve... making everyone happy.
- Ed Millard
Ed, conferences have break-out groups. The same idea should be employed.
- Micah Wittman
Ed, yes, you offered a little explication for others of what happens when you lost the ability to categorize your"story" into a mental picture that is associated with previous "stories" you have stored in the brain. That end result is "noise". Some of us are better at doing that than others, that's true. But there come a point of over flow for all of us. What our UI needs to do is to amplify and assist in that "story" constructing process.
- Melanie Reed
Break out groups is a nice idea, but it seems a bit cumbersome. You need to make a new post, post a link here and get some critical mass from the first forum to move. If you do it five times you would splinter the first forum and lose critical mass, especially in a "real-time" forum where people will only watch one forum at a time. Chances are most people will cling to the first forum if its interesting.
- Ed Millard
Ed and Micah, what I hear both of you saying, and Robert as well, is that at some point in the "story" constructing process, the dialog from the forum needs to end in the narrative of a blog. Up till now, the blog component has been a random, unattached part of the discussion. AM I hearing that you think that in some way it should become part of the UI? So that the discussion gets...
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- Melanie Reed
Not sure I follow, blog is kind of a one voice, one direction thing, only way a forum morphs to blog is when once person splits off the forum to make a more in depth point and posts the blog link to the forum. I'm mostly just talking about the various methods for restoring order in a big forum, and improving signal to noise ratio. Most entail putting more options and more UI in and around the forum and making the UI more complex which many think is bad on a social network.
- Ed Millard
Ed, as I was writing this, it occurs to me that what I'm suggesting is what I may have just figured out (finally) that Google Wave is trying to get us to do. But if so, I beleive FF could actually do it better. the "noise" problem that was created by the various forms of SM, inside and outside of the platforms, was the inability to "connect the dots". We didn't have a framework for how...
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- Melanie Reed
One of the problems that we haven't solved is the usefulness of digression and random access of connective tissue in the "story" process. That's the wild card that often comes up as "noise"
- Melanie Reed
I can't speak for Robert. Some of his issue "seems" to be he only wants to see the Silicon Valley/SF movers and shakers in his feed talking about tech and social networks, and he doesn't much want anyone but that same group to be posting on forums under his auspices. Friend Feeds openness is bad for that. The same is true for all the Twitter celeberati. They don't want peons anywhere near their online presence to tarnish it.
- Ed Millard
Only way I can see to maintain FF openness for those who want it, and celeb broadcast only mode for the celebs who demand it, in one social network is you have to have an option when you make a post on your feed to control the forum methodology (i.e. broadcast only peons can only look on, panel mode where only my social elite are allowed to speak & peons can watch, private where only my circle can speak and see (FB mode), or completely OPEN(FF mode).
- Ed Millard
There also seems to be an issue where someone you follow, through the "like" process, can inject pictures of kittens, babies and man titteh in to your feed. Of course that is kind of the original point of social networks, seeing what your network sees. I think some just want hard core tech news and talk and twitter lists probably do allow an uber though somewhat lifeless feed like that.
- Ed Millard
Ed, well, that is the territory of the heart when it comes into contact with the machine. And oddly (or maybe not so oddly) there is a post on my feed that addresses that theme: http://friendfeed.com/faithx5... ;) Digression and Random access at work. lol And I find that refreshing. I'm always excited about how some new idea may be generated because I allowed what...
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- Melanie Reed
@Melanie: I fully believe in non-linear learning. The ability to take input from diverse thematic content and synthesize something ... to apply something from one world to the other. That's where I think we're heading. I think of it a little bit like a digital version of Burroughs' Cut Up technique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- AJ Kohn
I can't believe I read the whole thing
- Michael Slattery
Such a simple and obvious solution: provide an optional *LIST* view for Friendfeed items. Open the comments only on items that look really interesting. Am I missing something obvious? Then Friendfeed could easily emulate Twitter on all essentials (and surpass it in many other areas).
- Sean McBride
Sean, I think the obvious thing you are missing is there are no FF developers any more so FF probably isn't getting anything it doesn't already have. And there are camps here that don't really like the alternatives that FB and Twitter offer which is why this is such a hot button issue. I wish there was one social network that had lists, open forums, walled gardens, and broadcast mode based on the wishes of the person running a feed so everyone could be happy in one network.
- Ed Millard
FRIENDFEED IS SO AWESOME!!!!
paniaguai, sofarsoShawn, Michele McGraw and 64 other people liked this
There, does that make everyone feel better?
- Robert Scoble
FU Robert...but we still love you...
- Bill Heslin
Your killing me man!
- Owen Greaves
FU too but I still love you.
- Robert Scoble
Ladies and Gentlemen, the REAL FF Manic Depressive, Robert Scoble!
- Internet's Tad
Dont'
- Bill Heslin
You must be back on your med's again Robert : )
- Owen Greaves
You talk out both sides of your mouth so much, I presume this is sarcasm.
- jcunwired
This means our yapping really got to him ;)
- Schadenfreude
Robert is coming in because he's for the Yankees...so thanx robert
- Bill Heslin
*channels Dvorak* I'm not buying it!
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
from iPod
Me neither...MVB
- Bill Heslin
I shant comment on another RS post...I loves my FF peeps...We rock
- Bill Heslin
MVB: seems that everyone here wants this, so this is what I'm going to post. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I have no problem with you not liking FriendFeed as a service or not getting anything out of it anymore. You had valid points about forums. What bothered me was the language and the tone of your initial post and screenshot that singled out and attacked the people of FriendFeed. You don't have to like the service or find it interesting but there are more respectful ways to communicate that...ways that don't personally offend the rest of the users and cause them to get defensive and angry.
- joey
joey: you're right. I was wrong. But I'm not getting fed here anymore and I didn't communicate that well.
- Robert Scoble
Sorry Robert, ever read the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" ? Check it out.
- Schadenfreude
I guess it's like falling in love with a four-star Thai restaurant that slowly switches to some other kind of food.
- Robert Scoble
Mehmet: I've read it many times. So you're right. Fine. FriendFeed is awesome. Now what?
- Robert Scoble
The worst part is that my "best of day" is dominated by people posting all the different reasons your post was wrong.
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: we're even thanks to that man-boob liking photo.
- Robert Scoble
Whew, now I can sleep well!
- Herb Hernandez
WoW! I just unsubscibed from Robert...MY feed just went way back to REAL people...
- Bill Heslin
Here we go again.... is this 1110?
- Ed Millard
Bill: exactly.
- Robert Scoble
Don't you all know what bait smells like by now?
- Josh Haley
Muah Robert!...hehheeh
- Bill Heslin
Yes Josh
- Bill Heslin
Anyway, what kind of tech stuff are you looking for?
- Bruce Lewis
Josh: nah, yesterday's posts were bait. This is just me saying hi.
- Robert Scoble
Bruce: I've already found it, you don't need to find it for me.
- Robert Scoble
I still like you, Robert. We've had good conversations. Just... Perhaps you could have handled it a little differently, is all. Best of luck in whatever is next and I'll see you around the net.
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
from iPod
Mmmm....bait!
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: I'm not going to fall for your bait.
- Robert Scoble
Bait?? Why can't you just leave us alone Bobbie?
- Bill Heslin
MVB: fun still ahead!
- Robert Scoble
Bill: you are welcome to block me. Then you'll be alone without me.
- Robert Scoble
I was just answering Josh. I'm not baiting anybody myself.
- Bruce Lewis
The food's the same here, you just made a serious mistake by stiffing the wait staff. Face it Robert, you're a fast food kind of guy.
- jcunwired
jcunwired: I enjoy fast food as much as anyone but I do try to temper it with veggies.
- Robert Scoble
Not that there's anything wrong with that. If you need tech "news" you don't want to hang out on a site that's exactly the same kind of awesome it was two months ago.
- Bruce Lewis
Oh good lord, a blanket apology/explanation is plenty sufficient. He doesn't need to come to each of our houses and prostrate himself before us and beg our humblest forgiveness. We need to learn more from that Baboon that Benson played in the Lion King.
- Matthew DeVries
Bruce: I'm not going to fall for your bait. FriendFeed is awesome!
- Robert Scoble
Why is Scoble trying to kill Friendfeed?
- Cliff Gerrish
Cliff: why would I try to kill something so awesome?
- Robert Scoble
My "more wrong" blog post was (in tone) bait. My comments here are real.
- Bruce Lewis
I swear Robert you like to toy with people because they are so predictable : )
- Owen Greaves
Why indeed?
- Cliff Gerrish
Because he has the delusion that he can.
- jcunwired
Is this what it is going to come to? People ripping each other apart until there is no one left alive when the lights are turned off?
- Mathew™ one of a kind
jcunwired: I couldn't "make" FriendFeed despite pissing off thousands of people over on Twitter by constantly talking it up. I guess everyone forgets that. Same over on my blog. And I've shown FF to thousands of people during speaking engagements. But, no, all that work didn't help make FriendFeed hyper popular so, no, I don't live under any delusion that I can, then, get anyone to leave. FriendFeed is awesome and nothing I say can change that.
- Robert Scoble
At the Boston FriendFeed meetup I was the only one who found Robert Scoble through FriendFeed. Everybody else found FriendFeed through Robert Scoble.
- Bruce Lewis
I found you through FriendFeed and I'm grateful for that!
- Robert Scoble
you could say that that it's a sad sack of going nowhere, now that the team was acquired and told Steve Gillmor like 8 times in the last Gang that a bunch of the best features here were too much for the 300 million nuffnuffs that use Facebook.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
if you wanted to say something about FF not being awesome, that is.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall: oh, you were listening to the latest Gang. There was a LOT of news in that Gang and Steve and I were wondering if anyone would notice.
- Robert Scoble
it was hard to notice with the thick fog of PR bs. mostly seemed like bad news and non-news. would love to know what I missed :)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
i don't mean to be un-understanding, FB is a huge org with hundreds of millionso f users, billions of $ at stake. i'm sure i'd speak cautiously too
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall: yeah, if I were FriendFeed execs I would speak carefully as well. The transcript comes tomorrow, we'll dig through it and highlight anything really useful in the Gillmor Gang. There were a few things that clarified where they are going a bit.
- Robert Scoble
Transcript? FriendFeed execs? Did an interview happen with Bret, Jim, Paul, Sanjeev?
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: we had Bret on last week.
- Robert Scoble
OK, well...welcome back, then Robert. http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- Josh Haley
That's great. Will there be a transcript?
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: yes, Gillmor told me today it's coming "soon." Hopefully tomorrow.
- Robert Scoble
Josh: I won't be baited. FriendFeed is awesome. And now I'm off to play with my kids. Be back tomorrow for more awesomeness.
- Robert Scoble
Good night!
- Bruce Lewis
What does he mean by "awesome?"
- Cliff Gerrish
from iPhone
My work is done here, ooh wait, it isn't.
- Amit Morson
My favorite link on FF and it not being "hyperpopular", http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- Ed Millard
ScobleGate
- Joe Silence is not dead
Somebody needs to post the man boob licking photo with Scoble's body and complete the circle. I'll start my stopwatch.
- Louis Gray
LOL Louis!!!
- jcunwired
It would be too easy.
- Josh Haley
no target of opportunity is beneath me.
- Joe Silence is not dead
Why?
- AJ Kohn
Aascoble, you makin me crazy I tell you, you crazy kid!
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
from iPhone
See, you know Robert's being facetious when his contribution doesn't end with: "And here's why: 1 ..."
- AJ Kohn
ROBERT. LOL.
- Mona Nomura
AJ: I don't have to do those tricks anymore. Look at all the comments!
- Robert Scoble
Never satisfied. Tell me how much you love FF every waking hour.
- Jason Hill
And, anyway, I understand everyone here knows at least 60 reasons why FriendFeed is awesome, no need to iterate through that list again.
- Robert Scoble
@Robert: I miss it though! You're welcome any time. In other news, the world of the Internet is a fascinating place. I wouldn't be anywhere else.
- AJ Kohn
Always here. Like every time I long-on. Robert is infinitely connected. Is it happiness? ... a disease? ... or both?? :)
- Charlie Anzman
Hehe - Keep it comin' big guy ....
- Charlie Anzman
Now what's Scoble up to? You gotta watch this dude he's pure trouble. The kind I like :)
- Jeunelle Foster
Here is my entry in Louis's contest, is there a prize, if so did I win? http://friendfeed.com/edmilla...
- Ed Millard
OH GAHD! *gouges out own eyes*
- Joe Silence is not dead
So confused... but don't care anymore. Can't we just go back to how it was before? Everyone posts/likes/doesn't do whatever they want.
- Jan Ole Peek
Louis, Robert probably already has a real picture like that somewhere.
- Jesse Stay
Josh, I want the transcript to your video
- Jesse Stay
I enjoy friendfeed sooo much!! I hope it doesn't go anywhere but gets optimized! Great site to make great connections and meet a bunch of awesome people!
- John Tastad
hahahahaha
- ffcode
You are over here checking it out, right? It must be awesome then. ;) Enjoy those kids!
- Martha
Don't go away mad, just go away
- Gunny doesn't side-hug™
Yeah! Everyone is feeling better now!
- Red Label
OMFG. Really?
- ruhöküzü.
no
- Alfred C. Ingram
UGHH, YEAH EVERYBODY HAPPY NOW ~ well perhaps, if it had a shred of sincerity
- sofarsoShawn
Filtering Reality - The Atlantic(November 2009) - http://www.theatlantic.com/doc...
filtering out politically disliked stuff
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Privacy, Our Expectations Need to Change - http://foolswisdom.com/privacy...
Schadenfreude, Lora Lufark, ThirdEye and 6 other people liked this
"I’ve written on similar topics before: http://factoryjoe.com/blog... http://factoryjoe.com/blog... http://factoryjoe.com/blog..."
- Chris Messina
The capability for openness is paramount, but openness needs to be a choice, and varying kinds and degrees of privacy need to remain choices as well. Technology shouldn't dictate cultural norms, it should support them even as they evolve. The younger demographic is not unconcerned about privacy as previously thought (http://www.danah.org/papers... is a good read), and adults have a variety of needs and thoughts on it too. It's not at all black and white.
- LogEx
I'd agree with that sentiment. At the same time, holding on to the old just because it's familiar doesn't make any more sense than technology dictating our behavior. None the less, tradition and the design of technology artifacts always play a role in determining our behavior — and in this case, I think embracing radical transparency now is a way to prepare for what I hope will be a more subtle future.
- Chris Messina
What do you mean by "radical transparency", Chris?
- directeur
The biggest problems (among many) that I see with radical transparency is that individual citizens (whose rights should be most important) are at a severe disadvantage. Governments and corporations have much more information and power than individuals do. The US is at the freer end of the scale, despite inherent structural issues and events of the past decade. But even if we assume that...
more...
- LogEx
Schneier has commented numerous times on too much transparenyc (e.g., http://www.wired.com/politic...). These are very real risks and indicate that we should proceed cautiously. At the very least, the desires of those who want to be transparent shouldn't obviate the rights and choices for those who don't want that.
- LogEx
the old adage "data is king", why do you think Google is aiming at organising an Exabyte of data all about us? Personally, I don't think people have a right to see every aspect of my life. Certainly entities who hold a certain degree of power over a populace should be a lot more transparent than they currently are (government), but for the individual, the option for privacy is an...
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- alphaxion
While I am sympathetic with the views expressed here, I don't see any solutions that would actually work in the marketplace. People are happy to hand over whatever data is requested of them to Facebook, Google, Apple, and whoever else asks in order to get better service or connect with their friends, family, and contacts. While "radical privacy" might be a fun topic to debate, the reality is that a new world is upon us, and it requires taking a different approach entirely.
- Chris Messina
Or, perhaps phrased differently, what advise would you give a 16-year-old (boy or girl) who is just now thinking of creating a public Facebook page for themself?
- Chris Messina
Chris, the first thing that's wrong with FB is requiring people's real names in the 1st place. I know you're against nicknames and imvho you're wrong. Do you think that people like _why are trolls? Or don't you see millions of jerks proudly displaying their real names, phone numbers and adresses? Personal information aren't a guarantee of a civilised behavior. Moreover RFCs are here for a reason. See RFC8155 section 4.1.2 (last point) http://www.ietf.org/rfc...
- directeur
@ChrisMessina "what advise would you give a 16-year-old (boy or girl)"? Just one but very good one - don't use FB, just do not! LOL
- Lora Lufark
@directeur: I think you don't give me enough credit for my perspective! Pseudonyms and anonymity are important in any social system — and I support their appropriate use. Assholes operate under both real and fake names. That said, my argument all along has been to provide MORE options in the marketplace, including using your real identity if you choose, AND consolidating your identity...
more...
- Chris Messina
Chris, I wouldn't say "People are happy to hand over whatever data is requested of them" - I'd say they often obliviously or grudgingly hand over data, not realizing how extensive their dossier is or how it may get used in the future. We're not talking about radical privacy either, that describes a hermit with little human contact who gets what he needs with nothing but cash and barter...
more...
- LogEx
I think the topics that you're raising are useful and worthwhile — and definitely help to illuminate the space about which we're discussing. As an interaction designer, though, my challenge is to surface the kind of controls you're advocating for in a way that doesn't completely bog down the user experience and inhibit one's ability to deal with the cognitive load of confronting such...
more...
- Chris Messina
All social media ultimately will need well developed private and public channels. It's not an either or situation. Financial and medical data already demand privacy. As social media integrates into corporate workgroups, other kinds of privacy will be required. Driving a car is a difficult user experience, but if the gain is worth the pain, the user will engage.
- Cliff Gerrish
Perhaps... but it's hard to imagine how we'll get from where we are to that situation — when there are so many benefits to increased openness and transparency. It's not that I disagree — but having worked on standards, it seems a significant challenge to get the entire industry to move forward, in concert.
- Chris Messina
wow you talk about social media state today, as if it were eternal. my god, this is an illusion... when people will have the tools readied to talk and exchange between them, on secure links or protocols, and not having the necessity to engage conversation in a centralized data cloud, your actual discussion on transparency will be totally pointless... good bye data, good bye Web number...
more...
- Thierry Lhôte
For instance, data server logs concerning users on Facebook are for no technical use, so why Facebook do not give their control to the users, it is technologically possible... this is not a question of technology, it is a question of greed, man. So when you are saying in one of your articles that transparency is inevitable because of technology, please, do not try to get me wrong, do...
more...
- Thierry Lhôte
I have no idea what you just said. Could you sum up your argument in, say, a single sentence just so that I don't get you wrong?
- Chris Messina
I believe there are 2 distinct yet related issues. 1. User data gets commercially exploited, often without the user realizing this. 2. The user tends to have only 1 choice, join in and get exposed, or stay out. The business model fuels public sharing and commercial exploitation of data. There is no reason why this couldn't be changed both with technology and business models. I Agree...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Yes Alexander made the point, contrary to what you are saying in one of your 3 articles linked above, we are not made transparent by the happening of technology. But because of political and business decisions, reflected in technology. There is absolutely no need, technologically, to be exposed to transparency, like we are now. Except if people like you continue to write that it is a...
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- Thierry Lhôte
And secondly, this type of centralized social media we have now, is perhaps not here for long. The day we will have applications that permits to talk and exchange without passing by a centralized point, then, all this social media phenomenon, we know now, will be busted. And happily, guys like Chris Messina will stop to tell tired and wrong thoughts from the "necessity of transparency".
- Thierry Lhôte
Thierry, you're a bit tough on Chris, and I personally don't think that it's fair. He has been/is working on making the web better for the user. While I don't like it, I do agree with Chris in thinking it is very difficult right now to redo privacy in a way that would put the user in control. There are 330M people on Facebook and many more in other services that basically say that they...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander, please do not tell people that it is technologically difficult to erase server logs concerning users, tell them he truth, not poitical or business hypocracy. Secondly, you say there are 330 M of users on Facebook, but how many of them are really users, are really active ? so you are vehiculating figures impossible to verify, but you continue to expose them. Thirdly, everyone...
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- Thierry Lhôte
We are taking about different things. The difficulty isn't a technical difficulty. Go to Mark Zuckerberg and ask him to completely throw out any existing business model he has and implement privacy (including the switch that protects the user from Facebook). He would never do that. The difficulty is the Facebook business model and the ecology behind it. Failing to acknowledge this, or...
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- Alexander van Elsas
Ha here we agree completely Alexander ! it is a question of business decision, not technology. But if you read Chris articles linked above, we do not get that impression, thanx for the clarification.
- Thierry Lhôte
There is an interesting series on NPR right now that discusses this very topic. I'd recommend taking a listen: Part 1: http://www.npr.org/templat... Part 2: http://www.npr.org/templat... Parts 3 and 4 will be out tomorrow and Friday I think.
- Chris Messina
My turn : Two important scenes - first here the problem the exploitation of data mining by greed and the risk of convergence of interests between politics and business : http://www.youtube.com/watch... - second, why Web 2.0 or social Web movement continue to avoid conversation on the Freedom principle http://www.linux.com/archive... and for the video of the event...
more...
- Thierry Lhôte
I take it you're a big fan of Eben Moglen?
- Chris Messina
Nope, I am not a big fan, but the FSF here has a perfectly valid point. If you want another source explaining this phenomenon, who is not Moglen nor Stallman or other guys, Wu or Lessig or Schneier etc. just an outside point of view, check this NYT article : http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...
- Thierry Lhôte
An excerpt of this article : Peter Swire, an Ohio State law professor who served on the Obama transition team, offered one reason it might be difficult for the administration to find its voice on privacy. There is a split, he told the conference, between the typical view of privacy among technology experts and the emerging view of people brought up in the social networking, Web 2.0 world. “The Web 2.0 movement is opposed to the privacy movement,” he said.
- Thierry Lhôte
you can also check Eric Raymond http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=932
- Thierry Lhôte
Thanks for these links. I'm curious — I wonder who would consider themselves in the "Web 2.0 movement" (besides, of course, Tim O'Reilly).
- Chris Messina
I do, Chris. More or less.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
But why does the "web 2.0 movement" have to be inherently anti-privacy? I understand the profit motive, but leave enough real hooks for those who want more control of their data... or the government will certainly step in and do it for you. We're talking about basic legally-protected rights... Radical Transparency is dead, get over it.
- LogEx
I wrote a blog post about it today that touches that subject. It's not as much web 2.0 as the most commonly used business model that makes privacy hard to implement/defend right now: http://vanelsas.wordpress.com/2009...
- Alexander van Elsas
All Your Docs Belong to You: Google Docs Now Exportable - http://digg.com/softwar...
Brian J Fanslau, Schadenfreude and mikepk liked this
"Official announcement came a few hours later after this post"
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Love this!
- Brian J Fanslau
Don't Worry - Facebook is Not Going to Expose Your Private Messages to Search http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
Mike Nencetti, Ed Millard and Jesse Stay liked this
Marshall you're on a roll lately - great articles on Facebook!
- Jesse Stay
When I look on Facebook, I don't see that lock icon. I don't see any way to share things with "Everyone". Only way I can do it is to go to the privacy settings and set it there, which makes *everything* shared. Which is something that I will absolutely not do...
- Otto
Otto, I'm not sure it's on yet for everyone. I created a new account and didn't see it either. It's something they're gradually rolling out to everyone though, I'm pretty sure. They've got a lot of things to release and test around privacy still.
- Jesse Stay
that is an option for people with profiles marked as public
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall, wait... you have to change the default to make everything visible before you can hide stuff on a per-item basis? **facepalm** What kind of stupid design decision is that? It's an opt-out only setup... what if I want to opt-in to showing specific items to the public?
- Otto
Marshall, ah - I was wondering if it was something like that. It is a bit of an odd design decision, but from what I've heard they're not quite finished with everything they want to do with privacy yet.
- Jesse Stay
YouTube Launches Real-Time Discussion Search and Tracking - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
A Meshkatian liked this
@sarahintampa is up and sharing the sweet posts! :) morning! I'm going to bed now!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
The Human/Machine Continuum of the Real-Time Web (Chart) http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive... <-- our first visualization re real-time web, more on the way
Marshall, I spent a half-hour writing a long comment on your post and when I clicked the Twitter button it sent me back to the post and lost everything! What a waste of time. Geesh
- BLOGBloke
oh dude, that's terrible! I'm really sorry about that. Not to blame you, but that is why I copy and paste comments that get really long into a text editor before hitting publish, just because stuff like that happens. :( I'm sorry though.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
So do I but I forgot this time. It's been one of those days. Shit happens
- BLOGBloke
Happy 33rd Birthday to Marshall Kirkpatrick, who asked for OPML files for his birthday! http://marshallk.com/its-my-...
Meryn Stol and ffcode liked this
Note - this is only a small slice of my total Google Reader subscription list based on the keywords I chose to export. Edit: Whoops, I left a vanity search in there. Marshall, please feel free to delete that one ;)
- Daniel J. Pritchett
thanks Daniel!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Denise Howell, Jack, Saperalot and 19 other people liked this
I hear that @Pistachio, @Loic will be on today's Gillmor Gang at 1pm.
- Cliff Gerrish
Should be a great show! Laura @Pistachio is a great lady - and who doesn't like Loic?
- Jim Connolly
looking forward to it
- Kevin Marks
Hi Laura!!!
- Francine Hardaway
No one there.
- Paul W. Swansen
who's doing darth vader breathing?
- Kevin Marks
Finally running a bit late.
- Paul W. Swansen
Not me.
- Robert Scoble
a bit loud all of a sudden
- Rocky Barbanica
John Borthwick of BetaWorks live on the GillmorGang.
- Cliff Gerrish
how many of you are joining us at the ReadWrite Real-Time Web Summit next Thurs? John Borthwick is! http://readwriteweb.com/summit hi John! :)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
a spot on her camera is distracting
- Rocky Barbanica
Marshall: I will.
- Robert Scoble
I am joining you there
- Brian Hendrickson
Rocky: that's a mouse pointer.
- Robert Scoble
I'm joining the http://readwriteweb.com/summit @marshallk - looking forward to it
- Kevin Marks
if Twitter=AOL we should see a "web" twitter soon.
- Robert Scoble
the spot is there even on loic's cam
- Nishant
Yeah, it's not on her camera... it's on everybody's
- Ken Sheppardson
We've got a cursor problem that we know about. We'll just hav to live with it for this show.
- Cliff Gerrish
no - now it's on Loic- must be tricaster
- Rocky Barbanica
nice mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.... whoo!
- Jay
oh good! didn't know you were coming Robert, glad to hear it!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall: I'm not sure if I reserved my Twitter ticket yet. :-)
- Robert Scoble
ahh thanks cliff
- Rocky Barbanica
that comes from the mouse/keyboard sharing utility probably - if they are running multiple skype computers
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
seriously.... someone pick that booger!
- Jay
What, you mean Kevin's birthmark?
- Ken Sheppardson
and fix the wide faces LOL
- dstamand
Bear, bingo
- Cliff Gerrish
Isn't everyone born with a mouse cursor on their face?
- Robert Scoble
Evan Prodromou on Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference today 07 Oct 2009 http://www.w3.org/2009...
- Brian Hendrickson
=D
- Jay
Would have been interesting to watch this discussion on wave. SO much chaos! yikes! FF is better! :-)
- Nishant
There's always something going on with the technology on GG
- Francine Hardaway
FF is different, not better.
- Ken Sheppardson
Someone is typing on a keyboard, knock that off.
- Robert Scoble
Yes. different and better for such discussions
- Nishant
Suggestion: Mute when not talking.
- Arnie Klaus
And we heard someone drinking coffee or something as well
- Pierre TAMISIER
Love these British accents and guys who sound like they're talking in tunnels
- Francine Hardaway
Just what I need. An explosion of data coming into the stream
- Francine Hardaway
Sorry, Robert. I'm typing. Then again, I'm not on the call... didn't realize it was disruptive ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
I want tweetdeck or seesmic to be a full "real-time" web browser : with all real-time information in there : Twitter, Facebook... etc, but also Gmail, my RSS feeds,... etc
- Julien
Ken, that doesn't mean we can't hear you.
- Cliff Gerrish
Francine: I haven't seen any of that stuff on my stream yet. Probably has a big impact on search.
- Robert Scoble
Julien => it sounds like google wave what you want
- Pierre TAMISIER
Cliff: So you can hear the Blue Angels overhead too then?
- Ken Sheppardson
Oh yeah.
- Cliff Gerrish
Other people are reporting Blue Angels too.
- Robert Scoble
I just saw them off the Pacifica coast
- Rocky Barbanica
#blueangels should be trending topic on Twitter any minute. It's their first practice for Fleet Week today.
- Ken Sheppardson
Julien I second that. Pierre really? Don't know yet. Need Wave to discover this. Anticipation greater.
- amarquart
I like the split screen can you quad screen?
- Rocky Barbanica
Rocky, not yet. It's a feature request for the Tricaster. But the double box is pretty cool.
- Cliff Gerrish
split screen eliminates visible cursor issue
- Rocky Barbanica
... waiting for the Moment of Win
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Daniel: we are too! :-)
- Robert Scoble
The main issues for me about Seesmic and Tweetdeck are the memory size they require!
- Pierre TAMISIER
Daniel: it usually comes after the show.
- Robert Scoble
I was wrong.
- Rocky Barbanica
lol @Daniel
- Micah Wittman
Just *reply*, Robert. We'll follow-up and go back to look at the conversation if your reply is interesting.
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert is hitting on an idea that I have wanted for awhile. I don't want to restream all the tweets of the day, just a few choice.
- amarquart
Flag a conversation as interesting by participating.
- Ken Sheppardson
@Amarquart - are you thinking something like Friendfeed's Best of Day for lists?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
is there an audio archive for these new gillmor gangs?
- Jamie
"Re:"
- Ken Sheppardson
all I want to do is hear the show on my commute. this live shit is annoying.
- Jamie
@daniel rather move to my posterous. not in friendfeed
- amarquart
Jamie: get an iPHone.
- Robert Scoble
I have an iPhone
- Jamie
Jamie: Look for Bootleg Gillmor Gang on iTunes
- Ken Morley
I want an RSS feed
- Jamie
FriendFeed was very close to what I want, but didn't give me enough choice on controlling/separating my words out from yours.
- Robert Scoble
latest bootleg gillmor gang is 9.17
- Jamie
/me casts Level 9 Lazyweb of the infinite
- Daniel J. Pritchett
You can listen to Ustream live on iPhone with the Ustream app.
- Robert Scoble
Still hate hashtags, although I use them
- Francine Hardaway
Keep looking, I have 10.01 via iTunes.
- Ken Morley
I know but the live format isnt always convenient from a timing perspective. some of us work! lol
- Jamie
Francine: I use them less and less, usually only for conferences. And even then I hate them.
- Robert Scoble
Oh, and people now spam by putting hashtags on irrelevant tweets
- Francine Hardaway
I need a visual map on how these things work or I can't adapt easily.
- Arnie Klaus
Bored dog just countersurfed in my kitchen, took the top off the crockpot and tried to take out the chicken! Thank goodness a fail!
- Francine Hardaway
thanks Ken I will try again
- Jamie
Can someone please move the pointer out of the middle of the screen?
- Matthew Schrock
I like Brizzly's take on a wikified hashtag index right inside the client. It's got flaws but it's a good start. Would love to see an "official" hashtag wiki. Then again, Twitter doesn't feel like a wiki-friendly company. More on Brizzly at http://www.louisgray.com/live...
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Laura's not odd -- just far more like everyone else
- Ian McGee
Matthew, we just have to live with it for this show.
- Cliff Gerrish
Just keep a 2-shot, Cliff :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
friendfeed's text is too grey. I had to to make http://friendlierfeed.appspot.com to read it
- Kevin Marks
good show so far!
- Rocky Barbanica
I only go to Friendfeed because my friends are there:-) Easier to see them there. BTW, I'm not seeing a cursor
- Francine Hardaway
Thanks Cliff.
- Matthew Schrock
Robert, I'm curious, are you aware of Cliqset? Some of the issues you've brought up are problems we're very interested and about to help solve.
- Darren
Yeah, I'm barely aware of Cliqset, I will be interested in trying that out. Probably this weekend.
- Robert Scoble
cursor moved
- Rocky Barbanica
Wanna call me and walk me through it? +1-425-205-1921
- Robert Scoble
Robert - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive... if you're interested
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
ah, I see Daren is here too
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
MySpace? Never heard of them! LOL!!!
- Rocky Barbanica
ah - cliqset requires a beta code - anyway to get one?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Hey Dan!
- Rocky Barbanica
looks like we need a standard for these activities in a stream... oh wait there's one! What we need is an easy wait to be a "source" with existing clients (ie. making seesmic/tweedeck activity stream clients for many services, not just twitter/facebook)
- Sylvain Carle
Creating a simple and effective way for a social media publishing workflow (avoiding duplication) is very difficult at the moment.
- Mark Krynsky
crowd-sourced design; fun
- Ian McGee
The IM streams came together in the client. Pidgin, Adium, Trillian, etc.
- Ken Sheppardson
Chamillionaire interview on building43 tomorrow hosted by Michael Sean Wright
- Rocky Barbanica
Michael Sean Wright is sitting next to me.
- Robert Scoble
Ridin' Dirty Chamillionaire?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Yea, the came in the client... but never further than that : Mosaic would have never been the web browser if it couldn't browse any website : http://blog.superfeedr.com/Real-ti...
- Julien
"Privacy" means "multi groups" while "public" means "one group", no ?
- Baptiste Cadiou
Just signing into Cliqset to see if it solves anything
- Francine Hardaway
Public means multiple scale free microcommunities.
- Cliff Gerrish
Public = you determine whether or not you're a member, Private = I do.
- Ken Sheppardson
Same Chamillionaire, Daniel
- Rocky Barbanica
I have to run.
- Robert Scoble
Steve: I have to run, I have a Mashable chat I have to do.
- Robert Scoble
OK, bye Robert.
- Cliff Gerrish
Still haven't gotten a wave invite. 2 people said they sent them
- Francine Hardaway
Realtime audience mining (to Mashable)
- Arnie Klaus
If blinders = control, we're in trouble
- Ken Sheppardson
As long as you let "everyone" view what you're saying, you can't really block any particular person from seeing it.
- Ken Sheppardson
nice reference to dynamic memory :)
- Hilary Talbot
Francine, Google is metering the invites that are in the queue. It may take a while.
- Matthew Schrock
Google Reader has made steps with regards to curation by friends. Louis Gray is my shared items guru :)
- Mark Krynsky
to calculate what's trending around your friends, you need a lot of friends ^^
- Baptiste Cadiou
Not if you also expand the network to friends of your friends Baptiste
- Mark Krynsky
also http://oneforty.com/item... shows stories your friends read
- Kevin Marks
Agree with Mark K - GR does a good job, feedly is a fine app which also provides suggestions.
- Dave Martin
I wrote about Twitter Times yesterday which Kevin just mentioned http://lifestreamblog.com/custom-... It's a great way to filter Twitter links by the people you follow on Twitter.
- Mark Krynsky
Well, it shouldn't have to be just your friends... I'd like to see some sort of wizard that let you build up groups, e.g. "Create a group of all the peole my friends follow, and show me trending topics among those people"
- Ken Sheppardson
Micromessage derivatives.
- Cliff Gerrish
Ken, if Twitter rolls out lists soon and allows that data to be passed to the API Twitter Times could leverage that automatically.
- Mark Krynsky
I want to see the principal that Twitter Times has released to be created on a wider scale. Imagine that logic expanded across multiple social media services and the people you follow on each of them. Then mash the data across all of them. It become far more interesting and useful at that point.
- Mark Krynsky
Kevin, TwitterTimes looks like something actually useful.
- Francine Hardaway
Anyone on Cliqset? Couldn't find anyone I know
- Francine Hardaway
Mashability toward Monetization
- Arnie Klaus
I'm on there Francine but honestly haven't used it much
- Mark Krynsky
filtered feeds toward frictionless transactions
- Arnie Klaus
What is the value of a user of any app?
- Arnie Klaus
appreciate Laura being on GG. enjoying her imput.
- Hilary Talbot
this sounds like good advice
- Brian Hendrickson
Its great that this show is not tightly limited in time. It allows the conversations to flourish.
- Arnie Klaus
Love you Laura!
- Francine Hardaway
Bravos, Steve. Good show. P.S. Great to hear that @Pistachio is officially a member of TGG.
- Dave Martin
Great show!!
- Arnie Klaus
great show
- Jamie
yes @hil121 great to have @pistachio here too - very insightful
- Kevin Marks
Thanks to all the participants of today's Gillmor Gang. Y'all rock!
- Tina Chase Gillmor
Thanks to the audience too - realtime and otherwise.
- Tina Chase Gillmor
So... Blogworld (Oct 15-17) or RWW's Realtime Summit? (Oct 15)
RWW! :)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
no, no - both should be real good. but we would love to have you join our event Ken. Either way I'm sure will be well worth your time.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
I'll be at BlogWorld - I'm biased because I'm on a panel there though :-) RWW looks good too
- Jesse Stay
OH: we aren't getting enough pages by making 25 page stories with one image, so we will now split posts into 10 words per page
Daniel J. Pritchett and Marshall Kirkpatrick liked this
By "overheard" you mean "Allen on the phone with Marshall", right? :P
- Daniel J. Pritchett
oh yeah dude, that's totally how we roll over at RWW ;)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
not rww - i dont know who they were talking about - it was OH :)
- Allen Stern
http://img.ly/54M ACHIEVE PROFIT! #recaptcha
omfg lol
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Random people asked “What is the name of Microsoft’s Search Engine?” These are their responses. http://thenextweb.com/2009...
Durukan Duru, Gerald Hildebrandt, Elif Crt and 12 other people liked this
on a side note...since when are there some many "random" hotties in Seattle?
- Zee.
Link?
- Jesse Stay
zee, i'm only seeing an image here, where's the link?
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
sorry....
- Zee.
look how eager all the guys are to check out the hotties...never seen such a quick reaction! :)
- Zee.
hahaa!
- Susan Beebe
There are hotties? We're geeks - I just saw the word, "search engine". :-)
- Jesse Stay
LOL :)
- Zee.
Probably doesn't help that this is in Seattle, where Microsoft is based. :-)
- Jesse Stay
it's true, but you reckon there would be a greater push for awareness because of that?
- Zee.
I fall in love with green fastener girl :)
- `aziz´ Alihan ÇETİN
I'd be more comfortable with the stats if they did this again somewhere more than 15 miles away from Redmond ;)
- LogEx
it is pseudorandom ;D
- Mike Chelen
interviewing Alan Levy, CEO of BlogTalkRadio live at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Bad-Hai...
Brian J Fanslau and Jesse Stay liked this
Say hi to Alan for me - I'm listening right now
- Jesse Stay
Where is the chat for this? Is this it?
- Jesse Stay
lol guess it is now
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Jesse: just asking the same thing. Liking the show
- Francine Hardaway
Alan's doing some really cool stuff with Cinch - you should definitely check it out
- Jesse Stay
lol - sounds like that guy just wanted to get on the air
- Jesse Stay
I think most founders are the largest investors in their company :-) Especially in bootstrapped companies. I'm not sure if BlogTalkRadio is bootstrapped or not.
- Jesse Stay
I think it's important that your product solves a need that you personally have - you'll have a much stronger belief in it that way
- Jesse Stay
Alan's a pro at this call-in thing
- Jesse Stay
yes thank goodness, i don't believe in call ins!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Conversation is a key - once other bloggers know about you they'll link to you. It takes active conversation though. (I'm no @marshallk though)
- Jesse Stay
Go where the other bloggers are - for Scoble or Louis Gray, it's friendfeed. For some bloggers, it's Facebook. Others (like TechCrunch) it's their blog itself.
- Jesse Stay
Thanks Marshall - that was great
- Jesse Stay
thanks Jesse! and thanks for all your thoughts here!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Just keeping it busy :-) Any time!
- Jesse Stay
about 10 cigarettes a day, litre & half of red wine. does that make me a bad person? I think not
hardly! a babe in the woods!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
The Miracle in July - a digital love story - http://themiracleinjuly.com/
mediaChick liked this
wow http://themiracleinjuly.com/ is a great use of Apture.com! it's a story by @mediachick (ijust scanned it so far but software use is cool [from http://twitter.com/marshal...]
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
anyone know of a good place in nyc to buy jewish-hebrew related items?
sounds like a question for Aardvark
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
RT @jolieodell: ReadWriteWeb needs writers. Send past article links and credentials to editor@readwriteweb.com
dude, Jordan - *you* are supposed to respond to this query, not just retweet it!! ;)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall Kirkpatrick, Technology Journalist » One RSS Feed Everyone Should Subscribe To: Who Favorites Your Tweets - http://marshallk.com/one-rss...
Andrew Terry and Wayne Sutton liked this
i've found a lot of awesome apps this week but 1 is my favorite http://bit.ly/GiACZ rss of who faves my tweets, run thru http://notify.me ) [from http://twitter.com/marshal...]
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Some great stuff. Thanks for the tip.
- sean808080
How to: Follow Hundreds of Tech Analysts on Twitter With 3 Clicks - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
How to: Follow 724 Tech Analysts on Twitter With 3 Clicks http://bit.ly/3zpCaB (thx to @carterlusher !) [from http://twitter.com/marshal...]
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
smub access - Big, exciting changes: I’m joining ReadWriteWeb! / the world according to Jared W. Smith - http://smub.it/dypl
ReadWriteWeb hires web-geek-on-fire @jaredsmith http://smub.it/dypl [from http://twitter.com/marshal...]
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
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