can someone dumb it down for me? --->- Sun Tzu: "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing."
Perhaps it is comparing the precision and efficacy of focussed intentional force against wild unthoughtful force? Nature is devastating but it wastes so much energy for no specific end. A warrior can't do that. A warrior must husband their limited reserves of energy, use them wisely, and that way attain a goal with the least effort and best results.
- Todd Hoff
I thought the same thing too Todd but still confused what "timing" has to do with this?
- vijay
I think it means that a well timed strike or attack is a lot more efficient and effective than a massive assault
- Alex Scoble
the rest of the quote explains it: "Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming… His potential is that of a fully drawn crossbow; his timing, the release of the trigger."
- Carlos Ayala
so "speed" has nothing to do with this(in the hawk/crossbow's case)?
- vijay
Speed would be a component of momentum and not timing, I think.
- Alex Scoble
that's the confusion. the hawk breaks the prey's body cause of the force of the impact generated by its speed. what does 'timing' mean in this case?
- vijay
mob mentality vs individual actions
- Morgan Haley
Because the hawk has to time it's attack so it arrives at the right place and the right time...just like an archer shooting a bow has to time their attack...or a sniper shooting a rifle.
- Alex Scoble
the rocks and torrential water are just doing what they have to do, caught up in the momentum of things. whereas the hawk specifically selected and attacked it's prey
- Morgan Haley
I think he's just saying that while it's fine and dandy to be a destructive force, to be most effective, you also need to know when to unleash said force.
- ronin
Timing is this sense I think is the intelligence and wisdom to apply just the right technique at the best moment which multiples the effect with the least wasted energy.
- Todd Hoff
"timing their attack" - what is the right time hawks attack their prey? Isn't it like... see a bird, then swoop in and jam into them?
- vijay
I think it's about how you use your resources and energy. You can destroy your big enemy by deploying huge armies (momentum) or use two spies and timed little attacks
- directeur
Yeah, the hawk attacks effortlessly because it is doing so out of instinct and conditioning. A soldier must also be able to act in a similar manner.
- Alex Scoble
But the bird doesn't swoop down and jam into it's prey. Watch a video of a hawk killing; it's accomplished through a series of perfectly timed movements fueled by its momentum.
- Mattb4rd
in the full context of the statement it means the strategic power that is combined to achieve a goal.
- Carlos Ayala
Hawks are multifoveal animals so they can track their prey without moving their heads and make fine adjustments once they determined when to attack. I assume momentum is how they make up for a low body mass. Since their prey is mobile and it takes time to build up momentum it's a constant feedback process that must take great skill.
- Todd Hoff
I think that Carlos is right...that a successful attack has two components...momentum and timing and you need to combine them properly to meet your objectives. This can be applied to any situation really.
- Alex Scoble
Alex, you can use only momentum in same cases too. Say you have a one million soldiers army, you will win a war against a village. That's obvious. OTOH you can destroy a big regime "scientifically" using strategy, timing, intelligence. In both cases you'll use some kind of force, it's all about how you deploy it.
- directeur
I was wrong right from the start... there's more to the saying (which Carlos posted above). The whole thing put together makes sense and my confusion comes 'cause I thought hawks usually break their prey into two. It's not and to achieve that huge feat hawk has to time the bird to hit the prey at the right spot on the body. This is from the link Praveen DMed me just now --->- http://thethoughtfulwarrior.com/...
- vijay
Yep, but sending the million soldier army against a village when they are away on vacation nets you nothing...you need to properly time your attacks to achieve maximum success. Also, for another counter example, sending your army to attack a village that is across a river when the river is surging will net you a huge loss of men and will make you vulnerable to attack elsewhere...Timing is critical.
- Alex Scoble
or sending your million dollar army against a village that turns out to be 300 spartans luring you into an alley and you get exactly what this quote means, in reverse...of course.
- Carlos Ayala
A more current real life example would be, putting a million dollars in to the market when the Dow was at 14k...That money would have ended up at something less than half of it's value...Selling your stock at the bottom was also a bad idea as you now lost the ability to make up most of your losses in the rally.
- Alex Scoble
Sure, Alex! But do torrential water use "timing"? No. What Sun Tzu means here, imho, is that BIG power is not everything, what you can accomplish using huge means can probably be accomplished with timing and intelligence and less means.
- directeur
Yeah, directeur...as Carlos said, you need both force and timing to be successful. So, we are in agreement. :)
- Alex Scoble
momentum and timing are both important
- Chris Heath
Ok, here's my go: This quote I'm presuming is from Sun Tzu's "Art of War" which is a guidebook on the tactics/strategies to succeed in war, as a metaphor it speaks of the necessity that success cannot be ultimately found solely in momentum(force), but also swift timing, and I'm sure there's more [he usually lists 5 factors(I read it back in the day] I interpret this quote, as it stands alone, to be saying strength or timing alone cannot guarantee success but is gained by a proper convergence of the two.
- sofarsoShawn
For me I don't view a comparison, perhaps its the translation. "When" just describes the different forces. In contrary, momentum and timing are both important. Although is is very light, the swift hawk uses momentum.
- Robert Higgins
Dudes: The object is not the moving object it is the Force and combined forces. The water and boulder thing. To get this thing going you of course need lots of moving water, this causes small rocks to move, them striking larger rocks, and ever larger ones till you have really big boulders moving. Kinda like engaging an Army. The hawk is driving their force in one direction between 60...
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- ThatDBD
Large and wide vs. narrow and precise. Both have their advantages : )
- Cole Jolley
Sean, if only I knew. This was delivered directly to me fresh and hot.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Wow, whatever you do, don't google "Asian guys at beach licking" if you want to find the Flickr account for this. No, seriously. Just...don't. o.O
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
changed my life forever...I will always go to the beach with a a few chubby buddies after porking myself up for those bosoms ~ and this image is most definitely going in the ol' spank bank
- sofarsoShawn
Remember ! I bring quality product to Friend Feed !:)
- Akiva Moskovitz
you know what would be funny: ok bear with me, if we blindfolded leather donut (you know the booby man) and...yeah fill in the blanks...something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- sofarsoShawn
Sir, randomly linking to your FriendFeed from one of my posts is oh wait you'll never see this because you're blocked for spamming. Thanks anyway, kaghazrangy.
- Akiva Moskovitz
damn this picture just won't go away - you have forced me to hide it
- William Harryman
Akiva, wasn't that pic taken at your last BBQ?
- Paul
Every time I see this picture I smile. Their joy is infectious, like herpes.
- Sparky Crocker
Paul, I surely do wish I had a beach in my back yard!
- Akiva Moskovitz
Sparky, I'm going to have this blown up to poster-size and attaching it to the ceiling above our bed. That'll cause some infections!
- Akiva Moskovitz
makes me want to grow a rack and diddle with my own, know what I'm saying?
- sofarsoShawn
this. . . .this. . . ugh . . . so fucking wrong.
- Peter Ghosh
Akiva - you can put anything you want above our bed.
- Sparky Crocker
i've been trying to formulate a comment for this for days, but i just...can't.
- joey
I still want to know the motivation here. is this a gay marriage argument? or are we already pushing group social contracts on friendfeed?
- Noah David Simon
oh man this one keeps popping up on ma friendfeed,....must spread virus nao
- Chris Hofmann
I'm surprised no one's noticed old boy's red-framed glasses.
- Akiva Moskovitz
oh right... the glasses are so important when three asian men are licking his nipples and all the comments are by people who think gay marriage has something to do with equality... when it has everything to do with taking protections away from children. the red glass glasses.... um yeah. chicken and Oklahoma with milk
- Noah David Simon
Mark, you have uncovered the dark underbelly of humanity except in this case it isn't dark but is rather a pasty hue somewhere in the vicinity of undercooked flan.
- Akiva Moskovitz
This should be in the default noobie FF stream. Like the first thing anyone who signs up sees. If they stick around they're part of the family.
- Internet's Tad
Perhaps this can replace the kitty pic on the start page for non-members!
- Chris, Taskerrific Guy
I'm certain prop8 had nothing to do with Swine Flu
- Noah David Simon
I'm thinking that eventually, it will have been hidden by every user on FriendFeed. It'll be the most hidden post in FriendFeed history.
- Akiva Moskovitz
WHY WHY KEEP BRINGING BACK THE EYES THEY HURT ME
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Herpes (and this): the gifts that keep on giving.
- Sparky Crocker
I wonder if the FriendFeed guys see this and say to themselves, 'Well, this isn't exactly what we had in mind when we started started FriendFeed.'
- Akiva Moskovitz
I look at it and think, "Not again."
- Steven Perez
from IM
Just about the time you FF is getting some class .. Oh well we is what we is.
- Brent - Long Live Rock
I can't believe after all this time some diligent FF'er hasn't dug up the identities (I said "titties") of this bunch and invited them to join the service that made them famous. Mitchell Tsai, get to work!
- Sprague D
i think if you unlike and delete all your comments anna it'll go away, but hide in general would be nice too (this photo makes me smile every time it pops up so don't mind it)...
- mike "glemak" dunn
*sigh* This is never going away, is it? It's gonna end up like James Bond movies and Swedish meatballs - always existing in the same form. never diminshing, never forgotten. :( :( :(
- Steven Perez
from IM
It will go away, to be replaced with photoshops of the original. It's all part of the meme lifecycle.
- Sparky Crocker
I am too new on friendfeed to know anything about record comments.. I love gmail tho, puts all the comments in one threaded email and I can delete them all later in one shot or not if I choose..
- David Gross
from email
well we should aim to beat the record.. i mean jeez there are tons of things that could be said about this.. like.. does it taste like chicken?
- ed fry
I'm gonna have nightmares now. thanks ed. ;)
- Alejandro
ok, in Japanese: "an, an, soko dame!"
- Rick Cogley
You can't close this thread. A lot of people say that this place is a Scoble-fest but, truly, it is this thread that is at the very heart of FriendFeed.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I'm officially going to proclaim that this is the FF equivalent of Goatse or FFoatse if you will. Lets all refer to it as that from this point forward.
- Mark Krynsky
Sparky has left 57 comments. The rest of you are slacking. Hop to it!
- Christopher Harley
Chrisitan just walked by and said "It's too early in the morning for Japanese titty licking." It's NEVER too early for Japanese titty licking.
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
THIS is the first thing I see here this morning?
- l0ckergn0me
Chris, you just woke up? C'mon, man! It's 10:30!
- Akiva Moskovitz
I knew he would break eventually - it's fitting that it's on this thread *now to find out how to hide a thread once you've commented....*
- WorldofHiglet
As much as I am loathe to bump this post, I have to do it to say, You, sir, are a master. Well played, sir. Well played. This is why I take every opportunity to say, in my next life, I want to be Akiva. I've already called it! Don't anybody go getting any more ideas.
- ♥patricia♥
I, for one, refuse to "bump" posts...it's very unseemly...
- Live4Emma (L4S)
I wish FF-search allowed to do GROUP BY -aggregations so I could COUNT(*) who are the biggest *bump*ers. :)
- Jemm
Makes me laugh everytime I see it. Such a happy yet silly scene by the sea.
- Toby Graham
There is nothing silly about it. This is serious business.
- Sparky Crocker
The more I see this, the more I like it. Not for the ironic nipple-licking, but because these kids are genuinely enjoying themselves. :) Carry on.
- felicious
This photo looks so much better in iPhone 3.0!#!~
- Akiva Moskovitz
Seriously dude. What do I have to do to get rid of this disgusting picture!? Doh! Now I've just pushed it back to the top... yuck, I'm so sickened.
- Jason Nunnelley
I love this image, because I have no clue why it's happening. Randomness FTW!!
- Jimminy
from twhirl
I'm just thinking of all the new folks coming to friend feed and see this and wonder just what the hell did I get into anyway? And why in Gods name can't I spell Friend correctly the first time - GRRRRRR
- Brent - Long Live Rock
Can't believe I never hit 'like' on this! Consider the situation rectumfied.
- Bec Rowe @d0tski
Oops! I hope I didn't just bump this up again... ;-)
- Sprague D
It's just so refreshing to see genuine juvenile humour at work. These kids are no different from any other, I think it's a great happy image, given all the other shite happening in this world on a daily basis. For those that are too pompous and prudish, 'up yours with brass knobs'
- ImJustCreative
Wow. 666. Nice! Actually, the reason Asashoryu is getting a divorce ( http://ff.im/4T0UA ), is because he wants to spend time with this lot.
- Rick Cogley
To this day, the pic still comes back. Just like Herpes. :D
- Danny Minick
Although unlike herpes this photo is fun to share with friends.
- Sparky Crocker
I would rather go to http://woot.com and buy the Acer Aspire One for $259.99, I do not care that it is a refurb.. but what would I do with two laptops? Maybe #hive knows? hmm..
- David Gross
from email
What's this? A real question in this thread? Two extra laptops? Make them fancy digital photo frames.
- Jordan Hofker
Reason #696 why the Internet can grant you immortality. ;-)
- darnell
from BuddyFeed
I can't believe this thing is still floating around Friendfeed. These poor guys... ha ha ha
- Bradley Farless
@SeanMcGee sorry about the spam, this thread is sorta spammy.. I get the messages in email perfect for replying with any message because it then gets posted on twitter and facebook.. I do not do it all the time, look at my other posts in this stream..
- David Gross
from email
Lactating, males last resort to save ourselves, now that they can create sperm in labs.
- Jimminy
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started feeding it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue feeding it forever just because...This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started feeding it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue feeding it forever just because...This is the thread that...
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- David Gross
from email
I have 89 :( emails since july 10th.. that includes the ones I sent.
- David Gross
from email
gmail comes in handy, it keeps all the email in conversations, 100 messages at a time but because the subject " :( " it will not filter out so they dont go to inbox.
- David Gross
from email
*THOUGHT FOR THE DAY...* Women are like phones: They like to be held, talked to, and touched often. But push the wrong button and your ass is disconnected.
- David Gross
from email
all this oral stuff is just begging the question of when do they start with the money shots?
- Noah David Simon
I just use this image as a way to announce crap. no one really pays attention to my feed... except my enemies. so when I have something important to say I tell the Asian Titty lickers. it is my strong belief that this thread needs it's very own domain name. something like http://xrl.us/TittyLickers
- Noah David Simon
You know, every time this pops up, since FF hides the middle of the comments of which there are 804 or so, I see Akiva say "I'm sorry." at the top. It makes me wonder about how some things are just not possible to apologize for!
- Rick Cogley
wow, I can't believe tomorrow is Friday :o) no, wait, somewhere in the world it's ALREADY Friday :o)
- David Gross
from email
Thanks Rick, thats what I thought.. does that mean I can start with the #followfriday on twitter or do I have to wait till it is Friday here in NJ? would be funny to post it from this post LOL all my friendfeed goes to twitter..
- David Gross
from email
David - yeah, you can get an early start.
- Rick Cogley
Rick, I am not good at lists or #followfriday but there are lotsa good people in this thread.
- David Gross
from email
the thing that strikes me about this (aside from the obvious) is after seeing this thing pop up like 35-40 times since March its just occurred to me that I don't have any (guy) friends that a) would lick my nipples b) would lick my nipples for a photograph. Maybe I should get out more...
- J. Abdul-Qahhar
I'm a little scared that I've this has gotten more than 800 comments and almost 200 likes over nearly five months and I still haven't clicked "Hide."
- Scott of Two Countries
It's just a bit of fun. I mean watching how many comment, not the picture content (although I suspect that is all that was too!)
- Ian May
Allright, you guys ready to shoot "mirth and girth"?
- Rick Cogley
For the life of me, I'll never understand the emotion people have around this picture for or against. There's no nudity at all, not even implied nudity. Less dude nudity than a beer commercial or cigarette ad, yet there are people who really really really hate this picture.
- Matthew DeVries
I found a way to get a Tit Theme, and it involves this picture.
- Jimminy
Hahahaha! It's like a telethon. And after Joey Bishop goes off stage, they flash this picture on the screen. "Won't you think of the CHILDREN?"
- Spidra Webster
It's been a while, hope the magnetism still prevails...
- Aaman (Clone of FF)
I just had to bump this once more... gives me a whole new excuse to go look at Phoebe again!
- Mark Jepsen
Hmmm, where do you think they're from? My guess is Japan...
- sofarsoShawn
The bumping algorithm includes things like novel people posting to it, in addition to thread age, and rapidity of comments. If the same 3 people are talking in a thread, it quits bumping because it's obviously a closed tea party.
- Matthew DeVries
I forgot, also you're a very handsome guy(saw the wedding images), I don't understand why you don't like to share your face. Rochelle is a lucky lady.
- Jimminy
Jimminy, it's an irrational phobia. No different than people who are afraid of heights, spiders, clowns, or Canada.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, now I'm LMAO at the fear of Canada. People are actually afraid of Canada, or just the fact they don't know if they're British or French?
- Jimminy
I don't think even Canadians know that difference.
- Akiva Moskovitz
If Friendfeed had sound .. this thread would be all licks and slurps
- Mattb4rd
Sorry Akiva, I think it was the display picture.. I have known male and female Akivas.. Oh and by the way guys I am not afraid of Canada LOL will be there this weekend.. Dave Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes...> - "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."
- David Gross
from email
I popped the 666 cherry and I will get 1000 also.
- Jimminy
If it gets to 1000 will Akiva lock it so it can sink from our feeds forever? Please?!?
- WorldofHiglet
I think locking this post would be un-FriendFeedian.
- Jason Huebel
This is the immortal post everyone who uses the service must see it so WoH it just wouldn't be good to lock it.
- Jimminy
Not everyone see's it, only the people with true class do.
- Sparky Crocker
It keeps on going and going and going....
- David Gross
from email
In the Hall of Great Posts at the FriendFeed museum, this shall be hung high on the wall with pride.
- Johnny Worthington
I'M THE ROCK AND ROLL CLOWN.. AND I LIKE COCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINE
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
*Wispering to Murderface* "Seriously man, I do... A LOT of cocaine."
- Matt Stoddard
It is now September 1st, and this has not reached 1000 comments. I am sorely disappointed. Yet, for some reason, I am uplifted by the smile of this young man, who was fortunate enough to have such great friends that fateful day on the beach.
- Josh Haley
Quick let's add some comments... Gee that guy on the far left is not really getting into the swing of things is he?
- Travis Koger
Travis... bear in mind that we don't know what "main chubby guy's" right hand is doing, or where it's doing whatever it's doing...
- Mark Jepsen
BUT WE CAN INFER WHAT "MAIN CHUBBY GUY'S" HANDS ARE DOING. BOTH OF THEM.
- Sparky Crocker
@Mark, of interest (well not really) is the location of Front Left guy's left hand.
- Travis Koger
The photo of Akiva in the jacuzzi with the Texas A&M cheerleaders would be so much more popular. Now if only someone would post it.
- Christopher Harley
Noooooooooooooooooooooo! Posted March 1st and we are still enduring the wrath! "Akiva's posts, now with more staying power than ever before!"
- Nicholas Kreidberg
YAY! OVER 1000 COMMENTS BLAAAARGBLBLLB
- Josh Haley
It feels like Groundhog Day whenever I see this.
- Andru Edwards
Except that unlike Groundhog Day this is AWESOME!
- Sparky Crocker
This thread was how I discovered Akiva. ROFL... Y.M.C.A.! BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP! GAZE AT IT! DON'T LOOK AWAY! >:O I SED DON'T LOOK AWAY!!! ... ^_^
- Danny Minick
You have nothing to fear - I never look away.
- Sparky Crocker
On Fark, there was this one thread, that just kept growing and growing. On Fark, it was a single page per thread. And you could post images and gif inline. Well the thread wouldn't die, people just kept posting. I forget which one it was. Anyway, it got so monsterous, that few people going to read/post to it per day (which was only a handfull) accounted for 1/3 of the server load of the site. They eventually had to cull that thread.
- Matthew DeVries
I think everyone who has participated in this thread has 'culled' themselves privately.
- Akiva Moskovitz
What with all the copycat images this has inspired I hope our muse continues to stick around and not get lost in the shuffle of so many knockoffs.
- Sparky Crocker
SHUT UP SPARKY!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111!!!!
- Andru Edwards
I refuse to shut up about the glory that is this thread. REFUSE.
- Sparky Crocker
Yes, Vezquex, I'm jealous of those guys, it is warm there, nothing like a warm beatch..
- David Gross
from email
Yes, Sparky, they do not know how good they have it there frolicking on the beach while we freeze up here.. Hard to believe it is only 49 degrees, feels like 29.. I bet it's at least 85 degrees on that beach.
- David Gross
from email
Anyone who doesn't appreciate this thread is clearly not developing a FriendFeed iPhone client because this is a great stress test case. (It crashes BuddyFeed, by the way.)
- Akiva Moskovitz
from iPhone
Also it exercises the crap out of your thumb trying to scroll down to the bottom of it.
- Akiva Moskovitz
from iPhone
Do you need to appreciate the pic in order to appreciate the thread?
- Travis Koger
If I un-collapse this thread, will it break my computer?
- Eivind
Every time this thread gets a bumped, god kills a kitten
- Matthew DeVries
Matthew, you may have given some people more reason to keep bumping this thread.
- Victor Ganata
How does it give you thumb exercise? Whatever you're doing, why don't you either use the keyboard or switch to Linux so you can middle-click the scrollbar to jump to where you want? :P
- Tanath
actually this thread does not bother me because I get it in email and gmail groups them and starts new thread after every 100 comments. I have it autoarchived so I do not have to see on phone lol and just see when I look at my ffeed label in gmail.
- David Gross
from email
If there wasn't a lot of money attached to changing the world I wonder how well it would work? :-)
- Todd Hoff
Yeah, I mean, let's be serious. They aren't saints.
- Chieze Okoye
Apple's about making profits through innovation. Not like other companies. Push some bullshit crap out the door, charge shit rates and turn in returns, that's every company on the planet except Apple.
- vijay
I would be more excited vijay if another element, Closed Systems, wasn't so forward.
- Todd Hoff
what's closed systems Todd? You mean the open/closed software systems?
- vijay
I mean stuff like how closed itunes and the iphone are. It's not just the carrier choice, the APIs are frustratingly limited.
- Todd Hoff
How about they change the world by making the iPhone platform free and open. Why can't I even use Flash on my iPhone?
- Shey, Jamaican of FF
We should at least have read/write access to all the data that's on the phone and in itunes.
- Todd Hoff
I'm not a programmer so I don't know about APIs but I can answer why Carrier is closed. AT&T subsidizes iPhone in return for exclusivity. And iPhone has already opened up to other carriers in quite a few countries now.
- vijay
Lack of Flash on iPhone, and Lack of Multitasking BOTH have the same reason... iPhone has a non-removable battery unlike other devices.
- vijay
But a removable battery would take up more space, or be smaller and have less juice.
- LogEx
The Flash decision may be party energy consumption, but it's also political IMO.
- LogEx
Not political. Flash and the entire Adobe suite runs on macs. Actually Photoshop runs better on Macs than on anything else.
- vijay
True, but wireless is a whole new world, no reason to support a proprietary format that may eventually die off (especially if it gets helped to die off). The iPhone is the one platform that has enough leverage to obviate Flash.
- LogEx
The gain is not having to use, license, and depend on another company's proprietary format. HTML 5 & h.264 address 80% of the use cases.
- LogEx
Vijay, seriously, dude, step away from the Distortion Field. Apple is not the first company that succeeds through innovation nor will they be the last. They're not even the only one that does it now. Honestly, even back in the day when it was scraping it's way to dominance, Microsoft was awesome at taking disparate ideas and putting them together into something successful. Read "Good to...
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- Chieze Okoye
In fact, you could say that Dell is passionately driven and innovative in the field of assembly-lining computer manufacturing in order to cut their bottom line. Just because it's not in the realm of making stuff look pretty doesn't mean you can't innovate.
- Chieze Okoye
I've been using windows since 3.1 and DOS before that. I came to know of Apple only 3 years back. Distortion Field has nothing to do with this. The care and attention to detail in every single Apple product is absolutely astounding.
- vijay
What I'm saying is that your "Apple is different because they're passionate about what they do and are successful because of it" is a false comparison. Companies that become great all share the same type of passion for whatever it is they're doing (read: whatever it is they're focusing themselves at becoming the best at). It's basically a requirement. The only thing that differs is where that passion is directed.
- Chieze Okoye
we could be talking about the same thing then... MS is passionate about gaining Market Share through any means possible while Apple is passionate about making a difference.
- vijay
That's my other thing. Apple is not that altruistic (which, no offense, is where I think the RDF comes in). Their passion is directed at being the best of high-end, boutique computing. It's not about "changing the world" and "making a difference" (a la a charity organization).
- Chieze Okoye
Vijay, iPhone is most certainly not a cheap platform. iPhone is $500-$700 MSRP. Consumers don't see that, but they're still spending roughly $2,000 over the life of their two-year contracts. Smartphones are not cheap, doesn't matter how you cut it. $99 iPhone is great or whatever, but there is still a completely different strata of people (ie: those that can afford it) that can and do purchase an iPhone. iPhone 3G is not cross-shopped with a $99 moto on metroPCS.
- Chieze Okoye
iPod touch is a stronger argument, though it is still $200 minimum for a music player (I bought a music player off of woot.com for $10 (S+H included) once.
- Chieze Okoye
"Apple's about making profits through innovation. Not like other companies. Push some bullshit crap out the door, charge shit rates and turn in returns, that's every company on the planet except Apple. - vijay" Seriously? Yikes, you have had too much of the Kool-Aid or you sit on way more corporate boards than we understand.
- Kenton
all smartphones are not cheap so Apple is a high end boutique computing platform? no. iPhone is cheap getting cheaper(it started off at 600 bucks and is now 99) and people are buying it as well so I don't see how it is not affordable.
- vijay
or maybe you don't know much about apple Kenton
- vijay
Smartphones are not a cheap market. They are the almost the definition of a high-end computing platform. AAPL's dominance of that market is EXACTLY MY POINT. They want to be best at high-end computing, and iPhone is their successful strategy of doing that in mobile. It starting out at $600 is due to the fact that AT&T subsidized very little of it. Then they subsidized more when the...
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- Chieze Okoye
Uhh, yeah right. You work for Apple then? To say that every other company in the world only cares about making a quick buck off crap products is proof that you aren't thinking in an unbiased way. To start an argument with a statement like that immediately destroys any credibility you have.
- Kenton
The smartphone market is slowly but surely becoming more mainstream and less high-end, that is true, but that trend is world wide and is still a ways off from seeing completion. Smartphone usage is still probably in the single-digits of worldwide cellular usage because (here it comes) all that technology is actually still pretty expensive and high-end.
- Chieze Okoye
Chieze, to keep it simple, Macs = high end price range of PCs, iPhone = low end price range of smartphones. Macs as High end boutique computing for PCs makes sense because you CAN get 'kinda' the same functionality for a lesser price. High end boutique computing for mobiles DOESN'T make sense cause you CANNOT get the same features for less.
- vijay
Kenton, I don't care about credibility in your eyes. If I have to prove my credibility each and every time I have one of these threads I'd be here forever. If the topic interests you do your own research else get out.
- vijay
They're not angels, Vijay. Take a look at this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technol... talk of a company that benefitted and still does of the opensource community! (in simple words, they introduced a kind of protection that prevents you from using your ipod with any other app!) AND they sent a DMCA notice to someone who was trying to solve this!
- directeur
Wait, I can't get a phone that makes calls, checks voicemails, goes on the internet and runs applications for cheaper than the iPhone? That's news to me. I'm saying that smartphones themselves are already the high-end and boutique strata of THE ENTIRE MARKET FOR PHONES. That Apple made the smartphone that has dominated all smartphones for 2 years now is not surprising given that they want to be best at high-end computing.
- Chieze Okoye
directeur, iTunes closed model is 'cause of the Big 3 and their DRM. But since DRM is not there anymore I still have to have to think out the 'why'.
- vijay
Vijay, my point is that it is totally opinion on your part yet you say it and defend it like you have some omniscient knowledge that the rest of us don't. Apple builds some great products and they have different ways of looking at design and product manufacturing. You're doing a disservice to the millions of companies in the world that focus on making people's lives better and actually do it.
- Kenton
Vijay, dude, honestly, if you just step back a bit, and look at it from what's obviously true, you wouldn't have to think about the why. They want to sell high-end and boutique computing. That requires selling a complete experience from A to Z. That requires tight control of what does and doesn't happen on their stuff, hence the tight reins of iTunes. Honestly, it's not a bad thing to sell that type of experience with real panache as Apple does, which is why I find your resistance to the idea puzzling.
- Chieze Okoye
multitouch, app store, full web browser and so much more features. Not the same. My Japanese friend who get DOCOMO's latest phone has a browser alright, she has this to say --->- http://twitter.com/perfect...
- vijay
ROTFL. The only phone that is well engineered enough to let you type spaces is the iPhone?
- Kenton
vijay, as someone who believes in free sowftware. I HATE this kind of closeness. Moreover the DMCA notice does not apply in that case. So why did they sent it? http://www.eff.org/deeplin...
- directeur
* wherever relevant I'm trying to find links to give you a better view so my replies might take longer. Also the thread is slowing down a lot *
- vijay
While it didn't have multi-touch (and really why is this such an important innovation?). My first Blackberry Pearl had applications, a full web browser (Opera) and better email functionality than the iPhone will ever have. Oh, and it had a space key that worked too.
- Kenton
Kenton, my point being every phone that touts "ADVANCED WEB BROWSER AVAILABLE" is actually not the whole story. There are different and varied shortcomings on all these phones. Now I'm pretty sure anyone could have understood that without me having to type it out. Don't ignore the point of my comment just for the sake of arguing.
- vijay
"multitouch, app store, full web browser and so much more features. Not the same." This makes no sense. It's a phone. That's the core functionality and that is the basic market that it is in. All the other stuff you mention goes into making it high-end. That's like saying Mercedes E-Class and Toyota Echo aren't the same thing because of a laundry list of features. Yes, they are different in the sense that one's is higher-end version of the same thing: A CAR.
- Chieze Okoye
yeah multitouch is a revolution. And before the iPhone EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE came with a stylus. Apple changed that and proved people that your fingers work just fine, that the screen won't scratch. HUGE.
- vijay
"it's a phone"... you were talking about "computing platforms" Chieze. Smartphones come under that not phones.
- vijay
or they're a hybrid of both markets.
- Chieze Okoye
without "apps" how is it a computing platform?!
- vijay
Anyway, I think that I've made all the points that I can make on this topic.
- Chieze Okoye
"Wait, I can't get a phone that makes calls, checks voicemails, goes on the internet and ***runs applications*** for cheaper than the iPhone?" You're missing the forest for the trees.
- Chieze Okoye
PAUSE: Why does Steven Se(a)gal support Apple? Does Chuck Norris support Dell? :p
- directeur
"goes on the internet" is NOT the same as browsing on a smartphone. I've already proved that with actual complaints of a user. I've no idea why it is so hard to see this.
- vijay
"turning hard right at 50 MPH in an E-class is not the same as trying to do the same in an Echo"
- Chieze Okoye
so compare prices with phones that offer the same features then
- vijay
Back to the altruism thing. Why doesn't Apple give the phone away for free? Wouldn't that be the best thing for the people? The most altruistic thing for Apple to do? Wouldn't our connected world be so much better if we all had the best smartphone and apps and all at the swipe of two fingers? If Apple truly wasn't in it for the money they could also subsidise the rediculous charges we...
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- Kenton
sorry I couldn't the right image but here's how much of a change iPhone has made --->- http://bit.ly/3gpf6U That's the iPhone beating an actual camera in number of shots uploaded. That's the amount of change iPhone has brought in.
- vijay
"truly wasn't in it for the money " - already addressed in my first comment here " Apple's about making -profits through innovation-."
- vijay
Nope. They are a consumer electronics company. They contribute to e-waste in the world. That's not making the world a better place.
- Rodfather
Rod humans poop. That's not making the world a better place now is it? Maybe this would be better... Apple makes the world a better place for "people"
- vijay
Rodfather: You're a carbon-based life form. You convert oxygen to carbon dioxide, aiding global warming. Is it therefore valid for me to dismiss you as a polluter and ignore what other contributions you may give to the world?
- Kevin Fox
Well, ya, humans are like a virus to the world too.
- Rodfather
Has the unibody Mac actually made the world a better place for people?
- Kenton
Less waste and less repairs due to lack of moving parts so yes in a small way. What's next Kenton? Is it gonna be "does the apple logo make the world a better place too?".
- vijay
btw, for people who hate fanboys and automatically assume anyone talking positive about macs as a "fanboy" and then turn themselves into "anti-fanboys".. I've come across Apple fanboys too, see this thread ---->- http://bit.ly/1KYGwY ( click on "show hidden threads" )
- vijay
@vijay: Apple products may be better choice for a selected group of fans. For my needs, Apple products don't offer better value (more like the opposite). So, it's matter of taste what things are important and which company is the best for each.
- Jemm
it's a matter of taste only for people who have very specific requirements Jemm, not for normal folks. Like no matter how much innovation Apple pumps into iPhone I know my linux friends over here won't touch it with a stick.. why? Just because it's not open. THERE, it is a matter of taste. For regular users it's a combo of features + UI/UX + cost.
- vijay
Vijay, you say everything Apple does is about innovation so ultimately, I guess I would have to ask that question. It is likely more productive, though, for me to just say I disagree with your assertion.
- Kenton
yeah yeah, go ahead Kenton. It's not like I'm earning money from getting people to agree with me.
- vijay
I would have to say that the market has proven your formula for regular users should be - cost+combo of features + UI/UX. Apple products appeal to those who follow combo of features + UI/UX + cost
- Kenton
Apple products appeal to a lot of people because they innovate. End of Story.
- vijay
Vijay, I'd argue it's more than that though. Plenty of companies innovate, Apple does something different. They tightly control the experience. It's a double edged sword for them, since it's also the source of their biggest weakness.
- mikepk
Mike, like I said to Alphaxion ... http://friendfeed-media.com/612df62... depends on how you define "innovation". Is innovation something simple removing the "text labels" next to the icon" or is "innovation" a game changer like the iPod or iPhone? Apple belongs to the latter category of innovation imo.
- vijay
let me confuse you even more guys! I'm a life-long windows user who loves apple but supports "open"! ---->- http://bit.ly/451tVV
- vijay
with this I'm off to bed. Thanks you guys for participating. Appreciate it. : ) EDIT: Mike, you're right. Nothing new about the tech in them. But UI/UX is what makes such a huge change. The Digital Music Revolution happened 'cause for the first time you could browse 1000 songs on your iPod without going nuts. No matter how game changing the tech is there's no point if you can't use it.
- vijay
But here's the really interesting part. Depending on your definition of innovation (technical innovation) there was nothing new about the tech in either the iphone or ipod. What they engineered though, was the end to end experience of those devices. I think the success of those devices is at least 80% due to the user experience (esp if you count 'cool' into it, but even 'cool' doesn't play as large a part as people often say). It's a holistic kind of innovation.
- mikepk
Kenton, I just looked at the article, looks like the prices were flawed originally and have been updated with newer Verizon pricing. Droid turns out more expensive (at least according to their logic). Lots of angry comments about how the author didn't check the Verizon smartphone pricing.
- mikepk
what Mike said. And Kenton... when I said iPhone 3G is 99 bucks only why did you assume I said "3GS"? 3G NOT 3GS, I said 3G NOT 3GS. I reapeated that 3 times so it can get through the thick illogical ati-apple sentiment hanging in your head. anything eh? anything, no matter how clunky the argument is, anything to take away credit from Apple eh Kenton? Open your mind up a little more.
- vijay
Besides, the whole "high end boutique computing" thing started by Chieze is flawed. That's like saying cars have not really changed human transportation 'cuz a large % of people can only afford bicycles and can't even dream of getting a car. Get this... smartphones are changing mobile computing and the one that brought it on and still continues to spur themselves AND their competition and the ENTIRE industry as a whole is Apple.
- vijay
Anyone who still has doubts about how much Apple has changed the mobile computing Industry, take a look at this ---->- http://bit.ly/s4jXC yep. EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE that you see in ads today, be it the dream or the droid or the Pre, were all the product of the change brought about by Apple. This is why Apple is a "game-changer", the entire industry has undergone a change for the better.
- vijay
While I enjoy my iPhone very deeply, I feel that one of Apple's biggest problems is that they now seem less interested in changing the game than in simply maintaining it. To be sure, there's very little incentive for them to fix what isn't broken, but my hope is that with others now stepping up to become serious competitors in the smartphone market, Apple will be forced to try a little harder. They make a fantastic product, but stronger competition may cause them to get even better.
- Noah Belson
Apple's different from other companies in that they are proactive than reactive. The common complaint when people say innovation on iPhone has stalled is lack of multitasking and flash which people expect Apple to include but as long as iPhone has a non-removable battery they won't be adding it in. Competition is always good, yes. I myself want the Pre for my next phone --->- http://bit.ly/2Z0yRi
- vijay
Interesting, I didn't know the battery was the reason they don't allow multi-tasking or a flash. Why is that? Are they worried that people will kill their batteries long before they're meant to die for good?
- Noah Belson
aye. with removable batteries suppose say in the middle of the trip your battery runs out you can swap it with the standby with other smartphones but since iPhone battery cannot be swapped out by the user ,running apps in the bg (mutltitasking) and flash would eat away the juice leaving a dead phone until you recharge it again.
- vijay
So they're just worried about people not understanding how quickly they'll run down their batteries by multitasking and using the camera flash. I guess that makes sense, but still, I'd rather they just allow it and let ME worry about how quickly the battery dies. Carring an extra charger in my car would be a small price to pay to be able to multitask without jailbreaking.
- Noah Belson
The entire business model of a closed system is to make more money.
- Michael W. May
Exactly Michael. Take away their profits and Apple's wheels come to a screeching halt just like every other business.
- Mattb4rd
Like I said in my first comment in here Apple's about "profits through innovation" not just profits by hook or crook like other companies. Hence this post.
- vijay
And it seems Todd said what I wanted, only better :)
- Michael W. May
how does it affect the fact that iPod has changed the entire music industry and the iPhone has changed the entire mobile computing industry?
- vijay
Apple hasn't changed much in the mobile market. It's share in both is still minuscule. For mobile stats: http://www.mobileisgood.com/statist... It's mp3/media player stats are much dominate, that I do not argue. None of that changes that fact that Apple is in business for profit. Whatever secondary guidelines of changing the world they follow, the primary and overriding is profit....
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- Michael W. May
my comment from above: " Anyone who still has doubts about how much Apple has changed the mobile computing Industry, take a look at this ---->- http://bit.ly/s4jXC yep. EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE that you see in ads today, be it the dream or the droid or the Pre, were all the product of the change brought about by Apple. This is why Apple is a "game-changer", the entire industry has undergone a change for the better. "
- vijay
again, Apple is "profit though innovation" not "profit by any shitty ploy we can think up". That's why they are the best company on the planet.
- vijay
"mp3/media player stats" it's not about their media player stats. Apple for the first time created an environment where people can carry a 1000 songs in their pocket. For the first time customers can buy JUST ONE SONG from an album than the WHOLE album. These two reasons combined laid the foundation for the digital music revolution paving the way for all the digital music stores like...
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- vijay
How did go about doing that? I don't deny any of that. But to ignore the amount of profit and lack of responsibility Apple's practices in digital music (remember non-drm'd mp3s only happened just this year) and the app store is to ignore that they are in many ways just as bad as any other company, in some ways worse. They didn't move to non-dmr'd music until forced. The profit they make...
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- Michael W. May
"they didn't move to non drm'd music"... wrong info. It was not apple's choice but the BIG 3 who had their say in that. The same thing happens on the iPhone where AT&T dictates the terms so Apple cannot allow any app that creates data overloading of AT&T's network.
- vijay
all the people whining about the app store restrictions shouldn't be... Steve clearly laid them out when they launched the app store --->- http://bit.ly/3hAnZ1
- vijay
And the inconsistencies with the app store approval, later revoking, later reinstating, etc, since? And what is wrong about the /fact/ they did not move to non-drm'd catalogue until forced to this year?
- Michael W. May
moving to non-drm is not Apple's choice. it's the record companies who make the choice. Apple sells the music under licensing terms with the record companies.
- vijay
app store has over 100000 apps now and the apps are rejected based on if it contains certain keywords in them. Once the dev reaches out and clarifies or adapts the app with the proper rating it is re-instated. It works just like any other "approval process".
- vijay
The Free Market catches on to "shitty ploys" rather quickly. Do you harbor such disdain for the marketplace that you doubt saavy consumerism? If so, Washington might be interested.
- Mattb4rd
Luckily Apple relies more on programmed consumerism than savvy consumerism. That guarantees a huge ROI with every product they sell and while I genuinely believe that some of their products are the best on the market, I'm not quite willing to back every play they make. I'd like my purchases to be based on what I want, not what a company tells me I need.
- Noah Belson
I have to add though that there are simply a few products that Apple cannot be touched on, such as the iphone. I did my research, tried several different things and found Apple to make the best product. If someone comes along and does better I'll jump ship (probably) but for my money it just makes sense to go with the best product. Doesn't mean I like all of Apple's products or policies but the bottom line is that if they make a truly great product- I'm there.
- Noah Belson
All of the programming in the world doesn't matter if the product is shitty. Apple makes good widgets. If they didn't, they would not be relevant. When they cure cancer, then I will jump on the "World Changer" business model bandwagon. Until then, they make good gadgets and we're [the market] willing to pay for them. It is not magic.
- Mattb4rd
Well yeah, I'd have to agree that they haven't quite earned the title of "world changer." Seems like that's mostly PR drummed by overzealous fans. Ultimately they're not doing anything that several other companies aren't also doing. They make some excellent products but the business of changing the world is best left to those who can do it without needing to sell us any electronics.
- Noah Belson
It's also a philosophy thing. As a user who is not interested in an outside party limiting my options, I went Android on my phone with the G1 when it came out, despite the iPhone being more polished since it had more development time behind it. I know the GooglyPhone will lag for a bit, but I'm happy to support the OSS. And as a PC user, I've been very happy with the lifetime and...
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- The Archangel ωαřмaiden
Yeah, I can't see myself ponying up that kind of dough for laptop or desktop, not when the technology is outdated so quickly and rapidly improving so often. In terms of the iphone though, I'm less interested in availablity to 3rd party options than I am in the best and biggest apps and right now those are really only available for the iphone. And given the market share the iphone has captured- I can't see that changing anytime soon.
- Noah Belson
NEWS FLASH!! the world is not made of ONLY DISEASED PEOPLE! The lives of normal people count. The "world" includes EVERYONE not just CANCER patients. Life is made of different facets each having room for improvement and innovation. When people hang onto something and use it everyday for most of their activities as with a mobile phone, and a company makes a monumental leap in the way...
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- vijay
" But everyone else - especially when talking phones - is catching up" That is why it is called a "game changer". The entire industry as a whole changes to keep up. Just like how the iPod revolutionized music and just how iPhone is revolutionizing the mobile industry. Companies are now giving their UI NAMES! Sony calles their upcoming UI "Rachael" and HTC calls theirs "Sense". Can you...
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- vijay
my comment from above: " Anyone who still has doubts about how much Apple has changed the mobile computing Industry, take a look at this ---->- http://bit.ly/s4jXC yep. EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE that you see in ads today, be it the dream or the droid or the Pre, were all the product of the change brought about by Apple. This is why Apple is a "game-changer", the entire industry has undergone a change for the better. "
- vijay
Apple may have changed the smartphone industry but come on, they've hardly changed the world. The iPhone is not the cotton gin or movable type. Apple helps drive innovation, but in terms of actually changing the world, they're a drop in the bucket, if even. They make a great product, but let's keep things in perspective here. They're in business and their business has nothing to do with improving the world. That may be their mission statement or something but their goal is our money, first and foremost.
- Noah Belson
"drop in the bucket" is subjective. The graphs I linked to are not.
- vijay
All those graphs do is indicate how frequently certain keywords are being searched on. I'm not at all sure how that translates into "world changing." Keywords like "hannah montana" and "grandma sex" are highly searched on, but no one's thanking Miley Cyrus or sexy grandmas for changing the world, etc. Again- perspective. Apple has changed YOUR world, not THE world.
- Noah Belson
That's only cause you're reading the graphs wrong. Before the iPhone launch the search terms are "0" and after that it's been an accelerating trend upwards. That's the point. That is the change... the shift from "0" to "greater than 0". celebrities are people and smartphones are devices. People pay to watch other people on TV but how many people spend time watching a tv show about...
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- vijay
If you don't think the iPhone is the "celebrity" of the gadget world then I'm not sure what else there is to discuss here. Keyword trending is a popularity contest, plain and simple. The fact that people are searching on Apple keywords means very little in the greater scheme of things. And it has zero to do with changing our world or making it a better place. Apple products are what's for lunch right now and keyword searches are simply the menu.
- Noah Belson
before the end of today, 11 million people from across the planet will be visiting this page --->- http://bit.ly/3EnXJb Do you see an iPhone there? iPhone is a device, Celebrities are news. Calling iPhone the "celebrity" means squat because the people doing these searches don't think that way when they do these searches. They search for news and thus celebs have higher volume. That's all.
- vijay
from my comment above: "when people hang onto something and use it everyday for most of their activities as with a mobile phone, and a company makes a monumental leap in the way people use these everyday device, raising the bar and making the ENTIRE industry as a whole adapt to that change, the world has indeed changed."
- vijay
from my comment above: " Life is made of different facets each having room for improvement and innovation." Changing the world is not "mutually exclusive". When something as ubiquitous and often used by people as a mobile device undergoes a change, that is huge.
- vijay
the last few comments I've been talking only about the mobile device, but then Apple has done that again with the iPods.
- vijay
Apple doesn't change the world, their fanboys may think so though. Apple knows how to market and they do it very well. Their products are nowhere near revolutionary as people make them out to be as they usually lack features that already exist. What they do well is get people excited about something shinny and clean looking with a brand people admire and it obviously works. I like shinny & clean but I like openness, full featured and cheaper much better.
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Again, it's about the people who are using these devices. You think people like you and me make up the majority of the planet? Not hardly. We have freedoms and indulgences that many people couldn't begin to dream of. This why again I say that while Apple has absolutely changed the smartphone industry, they've done very little to change "the world." They make fantastic products but come, let's keep things in perspective. They're in the money making business, not the world changing business.
- Noah Belson
yeah Mark, before the iPods came out there were more "full featured" devices on the market with HDDs and lots of storage space. People got the iPod 'cause that UI is the only one that let people browse through a 1000 songs without losing their mind. No matter how much features a device has, it's all about usability. That's why you can see the iPhone beating a full featured cam in number...
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- vijay
"They're in the money making business, not the world changing business. " already addressed in my first comment > " Apple's about making -profits through innovation-."
- vijay
the people who keep saying it's all "features, features, features" must fantasize about women who have an elephant's trunk(longest nose on the planet! that's a feature!) and cheetah's legs(fastest legs! feature!) with a Falcon's wings(flight! feature!). As for me, I like the normal human female with nose shorter than a trunk, with legs not as powerful as a cheetah's and without wings. It's not about the best features, it's the blend of features and beauty(for humans, that would be -usability- for devices).
- vijay
Vijay, btw, you misrepresented what I said. I'm saying that Apple isn't in this to change the world and make a difference. They're in it to be the best at high-end computing because that's what they 1) have a passion for 2) can do better than anyone else and 3) can earn the most money doing. The change they bring to the world of technology isn't the point. It's an after effect of the...
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- Chieze Okoye
There are plenty of companies and organizations out there with the actual mission to "change the world" and "make a difference," as their explicit goal, though. Apple most definitely does not number among them.
- Chieze Okoye
Simply because there is change in the industry in question from one company's actions (which no one is disputing with you, btw) does not mean that that change was why the company took those actions. Going back to the automotive analogy, Mercedes (or Ferrari or whomever) is not in the game explicitly to change the landscape of personal transportation for the better. They're in it to be...
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- Chieze Okoye
Honestly, you really should read "Good to Great" by Jim Collins. I can't emphasize it enough for this topic. It jives really well with the discussion (at least in that it shows you that passion to do something well and using technology as a means to that end is not a unique trait to one company).
- Chieze Okoye
Good point Chieze. Apple has the "Hedgehog Concept" down, but what will become of it when it loses its level 5 leader?
- Mattb4rd
"See that brown chalky disc second from the bottom? That is a chocolate Necco Wafer, aka the Kevlar vest of candies. Virtually indestructible, the Necco Wafer was sent into battle with troops during World War II because it wouldn't melt or break during transit. Packs of Neccos have traveled with Admiral Byrd to the South Pole and with Donald MacMillan to the Arctic. It can withstand extreme temperatures and harsh terrain. It is, perhaps, our nation's greatest militarized fat free wafer."
- Steven Perez
from Bookmarklet
I'm not sure that durability is my most desirable quality in food. Especially candy... and especially in lieu of any other redeeming qualities...
- Her Lindsay-ness
I love them. There's a shop around here that still sells them.
- Steven Perez
I grew up with them - the factory is in Massachusetts. I only like the chocolate ones though. Necco company also makes SkyBars. I love those.
- Laura Norvig
The postcard says "Postage will be paid by addressee", which implies it's the senator who will be paying the postage. Of course, the senator's franking privileges may make it so that the taxpayers pay the postage.
- <