Sean, if only I knew. This was delivered directly to me fresh and hot.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Wow, whatever you do, don't google "Asian guys at beach licking" if you want to find the Flickr account for this. No, seriously. Just...don't. o.O
- tinypants - Hagitha of FF
changed my life forever...I will always go to the beach with a a few chubby buddies after porking myself up for those bosoms ~ and this image is most definitely going in the ol' spank bank
- sofarsoShawn
Remember ! I bring quality product to Friend Feed !:)
- Akiva Moskovitz
you know what would be funny: ok bear with me, if we blindfolded leather donut (you know the booby man) and...yeah fill in the blanks...something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- sofarsoShawn
Sir, randomly linking to your FriendFeed from one of my posts is oh wait you'll never see this because you're blocked for spamming. Thanks anyway, kaghazrangy.
- Akiva Moskovitz
damn this picture just won't go away - you have forced me to hide it
- William Harryman
Akiva, wasn't that pic taken at your last BBQ?
- Paul
Every time I see this picture I smile. Their joy is infectious, like herpes.
- Sparky
Paul, I surely do wish I had a beach in my back yard!
- Akiva Moskovitz
Sparky, I'm going to have this blown up to poster-size and attaching it to the ceiling above our bed. That'll cause some infections!
- Akiva Moskovitz
makes me want to grow a rack and diddle with my own, know what I'm saying?
- sofarsoShawn
this. . . .this. . . ugh . . . so fucking wrong.
- Peter Ghosh
Akiva - you can put anything you want above our bed.
- Sparky
i've been trying to formulate a comment for this for days, but i just...can't.
- joey
I still want to know the motivation here. is this a gay marriage argument? or are we already pushing group social contracts on friendfeed?
- Noah David Simon
oh man this one keeps popping up on ma friendfeed,....must spread virus nao
- Chris Hofmann
I'm surprised no one's noticed old boy's red-framed glasses.
- Akiva Moskovitz
oh right... the glasses are so important when three asian men are licking his nipples and all the comments are by people who think gay marriage has something to do with equality... when it has everything to do with taking protections away from children. the red glass glasses.... um yeah. chicken and Oklahoma with milk
- Noah David Simon
Mark, you have uncovered the dark underbelly of humanity except in this case it isn't dark but is rather a pasty hue somewhere in the vicinity of undercooked flan.
- Akiva Moskovitz
This should be in the default noobie FF stream. Like the first thing anyone who signs up sees. If they stick around they're part of the family.
- Internet's Tad
Perhaps this can replace the kitty pic on the start page for non-members!
- Chris, Taskerrific Guy
I'm certain prop8 had nothing to do with Swine Flu
- Noah David Simon
I'm thinking that eventually, it will have been hidden by every user on FriendFeed. It'll be the most hidden post in FriendFeed history.
- Akiva Moskovitz
WHY WHY KEEP BRINGING BACK THE EYES THEY HURT ME
- Neal Jansons
from IM
Herpes (and this): the gifts that keep on giving.
- Sparky
I wonder if the FriendFeed guys see this and say to themselves, 'Well, this isn't exactly what we had in mind when we started started FriendFeed.'
- Akiva Moskovitz
I look at it and think, "Not again."
- Steven Perez
from IM
Just about the time you FF is getting some class .. Oh well we is what we is.
- Brent Smorgen Bleg
I can't believe after all this time some diligent FF'er hasn't dug up the identities (I said "titties") of this bunch and invited them to join the service that made them famous. Mitchell Tsai, get to work!
- Sprague D
i think if you unlike and delete all your comments anna it'll go away, but hide in general would be nice too (this photo makes me smile every time it pops up so don't mind it)...
- mike "glemak" dunn
*sigh* This is never going away, is it? It's gonna end up like James Bond movies and Swedish meatballs - always existing in the same form. never diminshing, never forgotten. :( :( :(
- Steven Perez
from IM
It will go away, to be replaced with photoshops of the original. It's all part of the meme lifecycle.
- Sparky
I am too new on friendfeed to know anything about record comments.. I love gmail tho, puts all the comments in one threaded email and I can delete them all later in one shot or not if I choose..
- David Gross
from email
well we should aim to beat the record.. i mean jeez there are tons of things that could be said about this.. like.. does it taste like chicken?
- ed fry
I'm gonna have nightmares now. thanks ed. ;)
- Alejandro
ok, in Japanese: "an, an, soko dame!"
- Rick Cogley
You can't close this thread. A lot of people say that this place is a Scoble-fest but, truly, it is this thread that is at the very heart of FriendFeed.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I'm officially going to proclaim that this is the FF equivalent of Goatse or FFoatse if you will. Lets all refer to it as that from this point forward.
- Mark Krynsky
Sparky has left 57 comments. The rest of you are slacking. Hop to it!
- Christopher Harley
Chrisitan just walked by and said "It's too early in the morning for Japanese titty licking." It's NEVER too early for Japanese titty licking.
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
THIS is the first thing I see here this morning?
- l0ckergn0me
Chris, you just woke up? C'mon, man! It's 10:30!
- Akiva Moskovitz
I knew he would break eventually - it's fitting that it's on this thread *now to find out how to hide a thread once you've commented....*
- WorldofHiglet
As much as I am loathe to bump this post, I have to do it to say, You, sir, are a master. Well played, sir. Well played. This is why I take every opportunity to say, in my next life, I want to be Akiva. I've already called it! Don't anybody go getting any more ideas.
- ♥patricia♥
I, for one, refuse to "bump" posts...it's very unseemly...
- Live4Emma (L4S)
I wish FF-search allowed to do GROUP BY -aggregations so I could COUNT(*) who are the biggest *bump*ers. :)
- Jemm
Makes me laugh everytime I see it. Such a happy yet silly scene by the sea.
- Toby Graham
There is nothing silly about it. This is serious business.
- Sparky
The more I see this, the more I like it. Not for the ironic nipple-licking, but because these kids are genuinely enjoying themselves. :) Carry on.
- felicious
This photo looks so much better in iPhone 3.0!#!~
- Akiva Moskovitz
Seriously dude. What do I have to do to get rid of this disgusting picture!? Doh! Now I've just pushed it back to the top... yuck, I'm so sickened.
- Jason Nunnelley
I love this image, because I have no clue why it's happening. Randomness FTW!!
- Jimminy
from twhirl
I'm just thinking of all the new folks coming to friend feed and see this and wonder just what the hell did I get into anyway? And why in Gods name can't I spell Friend correctly the first time - GRRRRRR
- Brent Smorgen Bleg
Can't believe I never hit 'like' on this! Consider the situation rectumfied.
- Bec Rowe @d0tski
Oops! I hope I didn't just bump this up again... ;-)
- Sprague D
It's just so refreshing to see genuine juvenile humour at work. These kids are no different from any other, I think it's a great happy image, given all the other shite happening in this world on a daily basis. For those that are too pompous and prudish, 'up yours with brass knobs'
- ImJustCreative
Wow. 666. Nice! Actually, the reason Asashoryu is getting a divorce ( http://ff.im/4T0UA ), is because he wants to spend time with this lot.
- Rick Cogley
To this day, the pic still comes back. Just like Herpes. :D
- Danny Minick
Although unlike herpes this photo is fun to share with friends.
- Sparky
I would rather go to http://woot.com and buy the Acer Aspire One for $259.99, I do not care that it is a refurb.. but what would I do with two laptops? Maybe #hive knows? hmm..
- David Gross
from email
What's this? A real question in this thread? Two extra laptops? Make them fancy digital photo frames.
- Jordan Hofker
Reason #696 why the Internet can grant you immortality. ;-)
- darnell
from BuddyFeed
I can't believe this thing is still floating around Friendfeed. These poor guys... ha ha ha
- Bradley Farless
@SeanMcGee sorry about the spam, this thread is sorta spammy.. I get the messages in email perfect for replying with any message because it then gets posted on twitter and facebook.. I do not do it all the time, look at my other posts in this stream..
- David Gross
from email
Lactating, males last resort to save ourselves, now that they can create sperm in labs.
- Jimminy
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started feeding it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue feeding it forever just because...This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started feeding it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue feeding it forever just because...This is the thread that...
more...
- David Gross
from email
I have 89 :( emails since july 10th.. that includes the ones I sent.
- David Gross
from email
gmail comes in handy, it keeps all the email in conversations, 100 messages at a time but because the subject " :( " it will not filter out so they dont go to inbox.
- David Gross
from email
*THOUGHT FOR THE DAY...* Women are like phones: They like to be held, talked to, and touched often. But push the wrong button and your ass is disconnected.
- David Gross
from email
all this oral stuff is just begging the question of when do they start with the money shots?
- Noah David Simon
I just use this image as a way to announce crap. no one really pays attention to my feed... except my enemies. so when I have something important to say I tell the Asian Titty lickers. it is my strong belief that this thread needs it's very own domain name. something like http://xrl.us/TittyLickers
- Noah David Simon
You know, every time this pops up, since FF hides the middle of the comments of which there are 804 or so, I see Akiva say "I'm sorry." at the top. It makes me wonder about how some things are just not possible to apologize for!
- Rick Cogley
wow, I can't believe tomorrow is Friday :o) no, wait, somewhere in the world it's ALREADY Friday :o)
- David Gross
from email
Thanks Rick, thats what I thought.. does that mean I can start with the #followfriday on twitter or do I have to wait till it is Friday here in NJ? would be funny to post it from this post LOL all my friendfeed goes to twitter..
- David Gross
from email
David - yeah, you can get an early start.
- Rick Cogley
Rick, I am not good at lists or #followfriday but there are lotsa good people in this thread.
- David Gross
from email
the thing that strikes me about this (aside from the obvious) is after seeing this thing pop up like 35-40 times since March its just occurred to me that I don't have any (guy) friends that a) would lick my nipples b) would lick my nipples for a photograph. Maybe I should get out more...
- J. Abdul-Qahhar
I'm a little scared that I've this has gotten more than 800 comments and almost 200 likes over nearly five months and I still haven't clicked "Hide."
- Scott of Two Countries
It's just a bit of fun. I mean watching how many comment, not the picture content (although I suspect that is all that was too!)
- Ian May
Allright, you guys ready to shoot "mirth and girth"?
- Rick Cogley
For the life of me, I'll never understand the emotion people have around this picture for or against. There's no nudity at all, not even implied nudity. Less dude nudity than a beer commercial or cigarette ad, yet there are people who really really really hate this picture.
- Matthew DeVries
I found a way to get a Tit Theme, and it involves this picture.
- Jimminy
Hahahaha! It's like a telethon. And after Joey Bishop goes off stage, they flash this picture on the screen. "Won't you think of the CHILDREN?"
- Spidra Webster
It's been a while, hope the magnetism still prevails...
- Aaman (Clone of FF)
I just had to bump this once more... gives me a whole new excuse to go look at Phoebe again!
- Mark Jepsen
Hmmm, where do you think they're from? My guess is Japan...
- sofarsoShawn
The bumping algorithm includes things like novel people posting to it, in addition to thread age, and rapidity of comments. If the same 3 people are talking in a thread, it quits bumping because it's obviously a closed tea party.
- Matthew DeVries
I forgot, also you're a very handsome guy(saw the wedding images), I don't understand why you don't like to share your face. Rochelle is a lucky lady.
- Jimminy
Jimminy, it's an irrational phobia. No different than people who are afraid of heights, spiders, clowns, or Canada.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, now I'm LMAO at the fear of Canada. People are actually afraid of Canada, or just the fact they don't know if they're British or French?
- Jimminy
I don't think even Canadians know that difference.
- Akiva Moskovitz
If Friendfeed had sound .. this thread would be all licks and slurps
- Mattb4rd
Sorry Akiva, I think it was the display picture.. I have known male and female Akivas.. Oh and by the way guys I am not afraid of Canada LOL will be there this weekend.. Dave Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes...> - "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."
- David Gross
from email
I popped the 666 cherry and I will get 1000 also.
- Jimminy
If it gets to 1000 will Akiva lock it so it can sink from our feeds forever? Please?!?
- WorldofHiglet
I think locking this post would be un-FriendFeedian.
- Jason Huebel
This is the immortal post everyone who uses the service must see it so WoH it just wouldn't be good to lock it.
- Jimminy
Not everyone see's it, only the people with true class do.
- Sparky
It keeps on going and going and going....
- David Gross
from email
In the Hall of Great Posts at the FriendFeed museum, this shall be hung high on the wall with pride.
- Johnny Worthington
I'M THE ROCK AND ROLL CLOWN.. AND I LIKE COCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINE
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
*Wispering to Murderface* "Seriously man, I do... A LOT of cocaine."
- Matt Stoddard
It is now September 1st, and this has not reached 1000 comments. I am sorely disappointed. Yet, for some reason, I am uplifted by the smile of this young man, who was fortunate enough to have such great friends that fateful day on the beach.
- Josh Haley
Quick let's add some comments... Gee that guy on the far left is not really getting into the swing of things is he?
- Travis Koger
Travis... bear in mind that we don't know what "main chubby guy's" right hand is doing, or where it's doing whatever it's doing...
- Mark Jepsen
BUT WE CAN INFER WHAT "MAIN CHUBBY GUY'S" HANDS ARE DOING. BOTH OF THEM.
- Sparky
@Mark, of interest (well not really) is the location of Front Left guy's left hand.
- Travis Koger
The photo of Akiva in the jacuzzi with the Texas A&M cheerleaders would be so much more popular. Now if only someone would post it.
- Christopher Harley
Noooooooooooooooooooooo! Posted March 1st and we are still enduring the wrath! "Akiva's posts, now with more staying power than ever before!"
- Nicholas Kreidberg
YAY! OVER 1000 COMMENTS BLAAAARGBLBLLB
- Josh Haley
It feels like Groundhog Day whenever I see this.
- Andru Edwards
Except that unlike Groundhog Day this is AWESOME!
- Sparky
This thread was how I discovered Akiva. ROFL... Y.M.C.A.! BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP! GAZE AT IT! DON'T LOOK AWAY! >:O I SED DON'T LOOK AWAY!!! ... ^_^
- Danny Minick
You have nothing to fear - I never look away.
- Sparky
On Fark, there was this one thread, that just kept growing and growing. On Fark, it was a single page per thread. And you could post images and gif inline. Well the thread wouldn't die, people just kept posting. I forget which one it was. Anyway, it got so monsterous, that few people going to read/post to it per day (which was only a handfull) accounted for 1/3 of the server load of the site. They eventually had to cull that thread.
- Matthew DeVries
I think everyone who has participated in this thread has 'culled' themselves privately.
- Akiva Moskovitz
What with all the copycat images this has inspired I hope our muse continues to stick around and not get lost in the shuffle of so many knockoffs.
- Sparky
SHUT UP SPARKY!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111!!!!
- Andru Edwards
I refuse to shut up about the glory that is this thread. REFUSE.
- Sparky
Yes, Vezquex, I'm jealous of those guys, it is warm there, nothing like a warm beatch..
- David Gross
from email
Yes, Sparky, they do not know how good they have it there frolicking on the beach while we freeze up here.. Hard to believe it is only 49 degrees, feels like 29.. I bet it's at least 85 degrees on that beach.
- David Gross
from email
Anyone who doesn't appreciate this thread is clearly not developing a FriendFeed iPhone client because this is a great stress test case. (It crashes BuddyFeed, by the way.)
- Akiva Moskovitz
from iPhone
Also it exercises the crap out of your thumb trying to scroll down to the bottom of it.
- Akiva Moskovitz
from iPhone
Do you need to appreciate the pic in order to appreciate the thread?
- Travis Koger
If I un-collapse this thread, will it break my computer?
- Eivind
Every time this thread gets a bumped, god kills a kitten
- Matthew DeVries
Matthew, you may have given some people more reason to keep bumping this thread.
- Victor Ganata
How does it give you thumb exercise? Whatever you're doing, why don't you either use the keyboard or switch to Linux so you can middle-click the scrollbar to jump to where you want? :P
- Tanath
actually this thread does not bother me because I get it in email and gmail groups them and starts new thread after every 100 comments. I have it autoarchived so I do not have to see on phone lol and just see when I look at my ffeed label in gmail.
- David Gross
from email
Abi 80'lerin hard rock gruplarında beni tiksindiren bi durum var, aynı bu albüm kapağı gibi. 4-5 ya da 5 tane uzun saçlı denyo, gay gibi dizilip albüm kapağı yapıyor. Bu albümleri bi kere kafadan indirmiyorum. Album artworkü gözüme girmeyenin albüm içeriği iyi olsa da skimde olmaz onu söyliyim.
- Deli Profesör
Şimdi yarışa sinirlenip köklerimize laf uzatma yahu sen de ohooooo eauheauheauh #cCc#tanrıtürkükorusun edü: rejiden uyardılar laf değil dilmiş uzayan
- iwfx!.
It's Donut until you start talking about the Doughnut Holes, and really that's a whole 'nother argument, because they aren't really holes, but little balls of dough.
- Jimminy
I have a friend who has been known to spell it as "dognut," much to everyone's amusement.
- Laura Lou Who
Krispy Kreme still spells it as "doughnut," I guess to differentiate from that other store chain.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
That's wine-soaked shitake and red onion, on a hickory smoked turkey patty covered in pepperjack & sharp cheddar, on a sesame seed buN (LOL @Amanda) slathered in garlic tahini. My inspiration: http://friendfeed.com/e...
- Admiral Anika
I totally did and snorted coffee LOL
- Mona Nomura
Next time forget Five Guys...I'm headed to One Gal.
- Mark Krynsky
Looks nummy. I miss turkey here in France. I don't know whats up w/ the french, I can get turkey in India, but not France ;-(
- InPerpetualMotion(Gina k)
This is clearly not my cat. If this was my cat he's have one arm shoved down into the printer trying to tear up all the internal whirling bits with his bare claws.
- Soup
Too Funny! Reminds me of the San Mateo Cat Shelter where one of the cats loves to sleep on top of the laster printer where the paper comes out...
- Greg Lato
1600+ to beat the FFundercats live chat thread. I think with this real time now on all threads we're going to see some truly epic comment numbers.
- Simon Wicks
Ivan, no the picture speaks for itself. ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Petr, I have no idea what you mean, but thank you. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
@Kol .. :] that, partially, might have been the purpose.... I don't know it exactly either. :] .. was I reflecting on a cat under the fax, and that it is hard to fax that way ... /?:] ... "underfaxing at its worst" ..
- Petr Buben
there ya have me ! :] .... see, to be honest with you, i saw this pic couple days ago, but i let it go, without posting it ..... what does that make me? :]
- Petr Buben
even a flat cat... faxes just can't handle the hair. You'd have to shave the cat first, else the hair will burn and stick to the drum... a mess! (I am extrapolating from transparencies, mind, i don't have access to a cat to test)
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
Hehe, Joelle. This is now tied for the 'likes' top stop. One more then, hehe. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Hehe, Greg. Blimey! Erm, is that not far from 500 likes now? ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Bloody marvelous, Kol. Wish I could like it again... too cute (and help u to 500 likes).
- Roberto Bonini
I couldn't believe it when I logged on from the morning over posting it and saw it was at something 200 likes! You all have a strange fetish with cats and fax machines, hehe. ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Am I the only one who saw this and their first thought was - My goodness did someone break that cats neck? It still freaks me out a little
- Steve C
Steve, it does look a little out of place, but cats are pretty bendy. ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
They fax much better if you flatten them first. What?
- Kevin Pedraja
So we can put this post to rest now. :-) 505 likes final count, wow! :-D Good night all!
- Kol Tregaskes
My like is the last one so far :) - 509 afaik
- getalifejerk
did 3 people really un-like this? now at 506. wtf (edit: uh, oh, yeah, me and 2 + 506 others makes 509. dammit, jim, i'm an artist, not a mathematician)
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
One of the best funny cat pictures I've seen! :-)
- John Collis
Kristian, it appears to be. Hehe, John.
- Kol Tregaskes
ای بابا این پیشول بی خیال نمی شود، بابا پاشو برو دنبال یه بازی دیگه ، از هفته پیش تا حالا تو فکس ولو شدی حوصله ات سر نرفته، پاشو اقلا بپر رو کیبوردی چیزی
- Maryaminaa
It's really only social convention which regards it as inappropriate, same with Xeroxing it, like one does with their b__tocks. Wait are we still talking about cats cats here or...
- sofarsoShawn
OMGosh 700+ likes now!! LOL. Thank you all 702 of you. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
"The Volkswagen Microbus is a classic - even to those of us born after its time. Arguably unlike the newly remade Beetle, this remake of a VW classic is remarkably true to the original on the outside - but on the inside it is a bio-diesel hybrid stuffed full of high tech gadgetry and eco-friendly innovations."
- Kol Tregaskes
from Bookmarklet
Super cool VW Bus making a comeback...
- Walt Ruppar
First of all, I'll cop to wanting one of these. That being said, Jason is right. This is for rich hippies (who probably aren't hippies at all). The VW microbus became the darling of the Flower Power crowd because it was cheap, easy to repair, and big. You could camp in it. Is there a car today that fits this bill?
- Chris Baskind
wow, you can buy an awful lot of pot with $129,000.
- Thomas Hawk
I don't know a self-respecting hippie that would prefer this over a really nice indoor greenhouse. ;-)
- Chris Baskind
@Chris, Most cars today aren't as simple, but with the wealth of knowledge online, it just takes more time. The minivan/SUV can become a camper van with a few mods. They'll never take the place of the VW, but they're an updated version of the 70s panelvan conversions (hopefully without shag carpeting & a disco-ball).
- Steven Cains
Nope: there will never be anything that simple again. That's not all bad: I can't imagine a 1960s VW Minibus would satisfy *any* federal safety standard these days. You're right. A used minivan might be the closest thing.
- Chris Baskind
Very Cool. You can't drive your house but, you can sleep in your Van !!!
- Eric Logan
Very intriguing. How much steel is in that thing? Chris, that would be my next question after fuel consumption: how safe is this thing? And I agree, when we can go back to making transportation that costs less than a small home, we may have achieved something amazing. ;)
- Melanie Reed
However, I have heard (and I'm not remembering where at the moment) that there has been a movement growing of people seeking alternative housing and substituting things like this as the new "mobile" home.
- Melanie Reed
Everyone is loving this! We should have an FF one and use it to travel to all the FFers around the World (like Pea seems to be doing ;-)). Hehe. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
cool idea, kol. the ff-stream of this tour would be alltheawe. just imagine the photos.
- esther ♥ ♫
I've owned 5 VWs, two of which were split window vans. I'd love to have another, this is awesome!
- Rick Bucich
from twhirl
I have had more VWs than other cars...starting with a 71 Superbeetle, and a Split Window Microbus. I would LOVE to have something like this.
- Kreg Steppe
Good for grandparents to visit grandchildren and children through the European continent (or another one as well)...nomadism-revival!
- Isabelle Ayel
wow i posted this a while back and now can't seem to find it for some reason. friendfeed's search function really sucks!
- Cee Bee
So after reading this article yesterday, I found myself this evening in front of a local place that specializes in reconditioning old VWs. It was closed, but there's an awesome red and white microbus out front with a For Sale sign on it. Ugly, underpowered -- and probably dangerous, by modern standards. Want. ;-)
- Chris Baskind
Cee, really? I find FF search is pretty good.
- Kol Tregaskes
I love this Mobile...owned a few Vdubs, lived in a VW camper, but this is off the hook..I would become a true nomad with this...
- bcultral
I'd like to have something like this, something small. What do you really need? A bed, perhaps a TV and room for your computer. Then you can live anywhere you like, in theory.
- Kol Tregaskes
Who is this Canadian designer Alexandre Verdier? Seems like he is on Facebook, Linked In but I can't seem to find anything else about him.
- Brian Sullivan
We had a wesvalia built Micro when I was a kid. I loved that thing. It was a little flimsily built; but boy it was perfect for my family of campers and road-tripping warriors. Too bad this one is so pricey
- Bill Rawlinson
Are you using it on a phone or 'puter?
- S.D.Allen
from email
abicim nasıl kurdun bi anlat çıldırmak üzereyim ben :D
- Zihni Babuz
@S.D.Allen No, i am using it on VirtualBox... @Zihni Babuz virtualbox ile kullanabilirsin. Sanal ortam yöneticisinden torrentten çıkan vmdk dosyasını ekleyip sanal makina oluşturarak kullanabilirsin.. kolay gelsin.. Torrent burada var http://ff.im/bKsP7
- Eren CAN (ec)
can someone dumb it down for me? --->- Sun Tzu: "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing."
Perhaps it is comparing the precision and efficacy of focussed intentional force against wild unthoughtful force? Nature is devastating but it wastes so much energy for no specific end. A warrior can't do that. A warrior must husband their limited reserves of energy, use them wisely, and that way attain a goal with the least effort and best results.
- Todd Hoff
I thought the same thing too Todd but still confused what "timing" has to do with this?
- vijay
I think it means that a well timed strike or attack is a lot more efficient and effective than a massive assault
- Alex Scoble
the rest of the quote explains it: "Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming… His potential is that of a fully drawn crossbow; his timing, the release of the trigger."
- Carlos Ayala
so "speed" has nothing to do with this(in the hawk/crossbow's case)?
- vijay
Speed would be a component of momentum and not timing, I think.
- Alex Scoble
that's the confusion. the hawk breaks the prey's body cause of the force of the impact generated by its speed. what does 'timing' mean in this case?
- vijay
mob mentality vs individual actions
- Morgan Haley
Because the hawk has to time it's attack so it arrives at the right place and the right time...just like an archer shooting a bow has to time their attack...or a sniper shooting a rifle.
- Alex Scoble
the rocks and torrential water are just doing what they have to do, caught up in the momentum of things. whereas the hawk specifically selected and attacked it's prey
- Morgan Haley
I think he's just saying that while it's fine and dandy to be a destructive force, to be most effective, you also need to know when to unleash said force.
- ronin
Timing is this sense I think is the intelligence and wisdom to apply just the right technique at the best moment which multiples the effect with the least wasted energy.
- Todd Hoff
"timing their attack" - what is the right time hawks attack their prey? Isn't it like... see a bird, then swoop in and jam into them?
- vijay
I think it's about how you use your resources and energy. You can destroy your big enemy by deploying huge armies (momentum) or use two spies and timed little attacks
- directeur
Yeah, the hawk attacks effortlessly because it is doing so out of instinct and conditioning. A soldier must also be able to act in a similar manner.
- Alex Scoble
But the bird doesn't swoop down and jam into it's prey. Watch a video of a hawk killing; it's accomplished through a series of perfectly timed movements fueled by its momentum.
- Mattb4rd
in the full context of the statement it means the strategic power that is combined to achieve a goal.
- Carlos Ayala
Hawks are multifoveal animals so they can track their prey without moving their heads and make fine adjustments once they determined when to attack. I assume momentum is how they make up for a low body mass. Since their prey is mobile and it takes time to build up momentum it's a constant feedback process that must take great skill.
- Todd Hoff
I think that Carlos is right...that a successful attack has two components...momentum and timing and you need to combine them properly to meet your objectives. This can be applied to any situation really.
- Alex Scoble
Alex, you can use only momentum in same cases too. Say you have a one million soldiers army, you will win a war against a village. That's obvious. OTOH you can destroy a big regime "scientifically" using strategy, timing, intelligence. In both cases you'll use some kind of force, it's all about how you deploy it.
- directeur
I was wrong right from the start... there's more to the saying (which Carlos posted above). The whole thing put together makes sense and my confusion comes 'cause I thought hawks usually break their prey into two. It's not and to achieve that huge feat hawk has to time the bird to hit the prey at the right spot on the body. This is from the link Praveen DMed me just now --->- http://thethoughtfulwarrior.com/...
- vijay
Yep, but sending the million soldier army against a village when they are away on vacation nets you nothing...you need to properly time your attacks to achieve maximum success. Also, for another counter example, sending your army to attack a village that is across a river when the river is surging will net you a huge loss of men and will make you vulnerable to attack elsewhere...Timing is critical.
- Alex Scoble
or sending your million dollar army against a village that turns out to be 300 spartans luring you into an alley and you get exactly what this quote means, in reverse...of course.
- Carlos Ayala
A more current real life example would be, putting a million dollars in to the market when the Dow was at 14k...That money would have ended up at something less than half of it's value...Selling your stock at the bottom was also a bad idea as you now lost the ability to make up most of your losses in the rally.
- Alex Scoble
Sure, Alex! But do torrential water use "timing"? No. What Sun Tzu means here, imho, is that BIG power is not everything, what you can accomplish using huge means can probably be accomplished with timing and intelligence and less means.
- directeur
Yeah, directeur...as Carlos said, you need both force and timing to be successful. So, we are in agreement. :)
- Alex Scoble
momentum and timing are both important
- Chris Heath
Ok, here's my go: This quote I'm presuming is from Sun Tzu's "Art of War" which is a guidebook on the tactics/strategies to succeed in war, as a metaphor it speaks of the necessity that success cannot be ultimately found solely in momentum(force), but also swift timing, and I'm sure there's more [he usually lists 5 factors(I read it back in the day] I interpret this quote, as it stands alone, to be saying strength or timing alone cannot guarantee success but is gained by a proper convergence of the two.
- sofarsoShawn
For me I don't view a comparison, perhaps its the translation. "When" just describes the different forces. In contrary, momentum and timing are both important. Although is is very light, the swift hawk uses momentum.
- Robert Higgins
Dudes: The object is not the moving object it is the Force and combined forces. The water and boulder thing. To get this thing going you of course need lots of moving water, this causes small rocks to move, them striking larger rocks, and ever larger ones till you have really big boulders moving. Kinda like engaging an Army. The hawk is driving their force in one direction between 60...
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- ThatDBD
Large and wide vs. narrow and precise. Both have their advantages : )
- Cole Jolley
I'm convinced miracles happen: 2nd time,my Father-in-law has got up from what some called his "death bed" & is laughing & smiling again. [Edit: Updated info: http://www.ustream.tv/recorde...]
If there wasn't a lot of money attached to changing the world I wonder how well it would work? :-)
- Todd Hoff
Yeah, I mean, let's be serious. They aren't saints.
- Chieze Okoye
Apple's about making profits through innovation. Not like other companies. Push some bullshit crap out the door, charge shit rates and turn in returns, that's every company on the planet except Apple.
- vijay
I would be more excited vijay if another element, Closed Systems, wasn't so forward.
- Todd Hoff
what's closed systems Todd? You mean the open/closed software systems?
- vijay
I mean stuff like how closed itunes and the iphone are. It's not just the carrier choice, the APIs are frustratingly limited.
- Todd Hoff
How about they change the world by making the iPhone platform free and open. Why can't I even use Flash on my iPhone?
- Shey, Jamaican of FF
We should at least have read/write access to all the data that's on the phone and in itunes.
- Todd Hoff
I'm not a programmer so I don't know about APIs but I can answer why Carrier is closed. AT&T subsidizes iPhone in return for exclusivity. And iPhone has already opened up to other carriers in quite a few countries now.
- vijay
Lack of Flash on iPhone, and Lack of Multitasking BOTH have the same reason... iPhone has a non-removable battery unlike other devices.
- vijay
But a removable battery would take up more space, or be smaller and have less juice.
- LogEx
The Flash decision may be party energy consumption, but it's also political IMO.
- LogEx
Not political. Flash and the entire Adobe suite runs on macs. Actually Photoshop runs better on Macs than on anything else.
- vijay
True, but wireless is a whole new world, no reason to support a proprietary format that may eventually die off (especially if it gets helped to die off). The iPhone is the one platform that has enough leverage to obviate Flash.
- LogEx
The gain is not having to use, license, and depend on another company's proprietary format. HTML 5 & h.264 address 80% of the use cases.
- LogEx
Vijay, seriously, dude, step away from the Distortion Field. Apple is not the first company that succeeds through innovation nor will they be the last. They're not even the only one that does it now. Honestly, even back in the day when it was scraping it's way to dominance, Microsoft was awesome at taking disparate ideas and putting them together into something successful. Read "Good to...
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- Chieze Okoye
In fact, you could say that Dell is passionately driven and innovative in the field of assembly-lining computer manufacturing in order to cut their bottom line. Just because it's not in the realm of making stuff look pretty doesn't mean you can't innovate.
- Chieze Okoye
I've been using windows since 3.1 and DOS before that. I came to know of Apple only 3 years back. Distortion Field has nothing to do with this. The care and attention to detail in every single Apple product is absolutely astounding.
- vijay
What I'm saying is that your "Apple is different because they're passionate about what they do and are successful because of it" is a false comparison. Companies that become great all share the same type of passion for whatever it is they're doing (read: whatever it is they're focusing themselves at becoming the best at). It's basically a requirement. The only thing that differs is where that passion is directed.
- Chieze Okoye
we could be talking about the same thing then... MS is passionate about gaining Market Share through any means possible while Apple is passionate about making a difference.
- vijay
That's my other thing. Apple is not that altruistic (which, no offense, is where I think the RDF comes in). Their passion is directed at being the best of high-end, boutique computing. It's not about "changing the world" and "making a difference" (a la a charity organization).
- Chieze Okoye
Vijay, iPhone is most certainly not a cheap platform. iPhone is $500-$700 MSRP. Consumers don't see that, but they're still spending roughly $2,000 over the life of their two-year contracts. Smartphones are not cheap, doesn't matter how you cut it. $99 iPhone is great or whatever, but there is still a completely different strata of people (ie: those that can afford it) that can and do purchase an iPhone. iPhone 3G is not cross-shopped with a $99 moto on metroPCS.
- Chieze Okoye
iPod touch is a stronger argument, though it is still $200 minimum for a music player (I bought a music player off of woot.com for $10 (S+H included) once.
- Chieze Okoye
"Apple's about making profits through innovation. Not like other companies. Push some bullshit crap out the door, charge shit rates and turn in returns, that's every company on the planet except Apple. - vijay" Seriously? Yikes, you have had too much of the Kool-Aid or you sit on way more corporate boards than we understand.
- Kenton
all smartphones are not cheap so Apple is a high end boutique computing platform? no. iPhone is cheap getting cheaper(it started off at 600 bucks and is now 99) and people are buying it as well so I don't see how it is not affordable.
- vijay
or maybe you don't know much about apple Kenton
- vijay
Smartphones are not a cheap market. They are the almost the definition of a high-end computing platform. AAPL's dominance of that market is EXACTLY MY POINT. They want to be best at high-end computing, and iPhone is their successful strategy of doing that in mobile. It starting out at $600 is due to the fact that AT&T subsidized very little of it. Then they subsidized more when the...
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- Chieze Okoye
Uhh, yeah right. You work for Apple then? To say that every other company in the world only cares about making a quick buck off crap products is proof that you aren't thinking in an unbiased way. To start an argument with a statement like that immediately destroys any credibility you have.
- Kenton
The smartphone market is slowly but surely becoming more mainstream and less high-end, that is true, but that trend is world wide and is still a ways off from seeing completion. Smartphone usage is still probably in the single-digits of worldwide cellular usage because (here it comes) all that technology is actually still pretty expensive and high-end.
- Chieze Okoye
Chieze, to keep it simple, Macs = high end price range of PCs, iPhone = low end price range of smartphones. Macs as High end boutique computing for PCs makes sense because you CAN get 'kinda' the same functionality for a lesser price. High end boutique computing for mobiles DOESN'T make sense cause you CANNOT get the same features for less.
- vijay
Kenton, I don't care about credibility in your eyes. If I have to prove my credibility each and every time I have one of these threads I'd be here forever. If the topic interests you do your own research else get out.
- vijay
They're not angels, Vijay. Take a look at this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technol... talk of a company that benefitted and still does of the opensource community! (in simple words, they introduced a kind of protection that prevents you from using your ipod with any other app!) AND they sent a DMCA notice to someone who was trying to solve this!
- directeur
Wait, I can't get a phone that makes calls, checks voicemails, goes on the internet and runs applications for cheaper than the iPhone? That's news to me. I'm saying that smartphones themselves are already the high-end and boutique strata of THE ENTIRE MARKET FOR PHONES. That Apple made the smartphone that has dominated all smartphones for 2 years now is not surprising given that they want to be best at high-end computing.
- Chieze Okoye
directeur, iTunes closed model is 'cause of the Big 3 and their DRM. But since DRM is not there anymore I still have to have to think out the 'why'.
- vijay
Vijay, my point is that it is totally opinion on your part yet you say it and defend it like you have some omniscient knowledge that the rest of us don't. Apple builds some great products and they have different ways of looking at design and product manufacturing. You're doing a disservice to the millions of companies in the world that focus on making people's lives better and actually do it.
- Kenton
Vijay, dude, honestly, if you just step back a bit, and look at it from what's obviously true, you wouldn't have to think about the why. They want to sell high-end and boutique computing. That requires selling a complete experience from A to Z. That requires tight control of what does and doesn't happen on their stuff, hence the tight reins of iTunes. Honestly, it's not a bad thing to sell that type of experience with real panache as Apple does, which is why I find your resistance to the idea puzzling.
- Chieze Okoye
multitouch, app store, full web browser and so much more features. Not the same. My Japanese friend who get DOCOMO's latest phone has a browser alright, she has this to say --->- http://twitter.com/perfect...
- vijay
ROTFL. The only phone that is well engineered enough to let you type spaces is the iPhone?
- Kenton
vijay, as someone who believes in free sowftware. I HATE this kind of closeness. Moreover the DMCA notice does not apply in that case. So why did they sent it? http://www.eff.org/deeplin...
- directeur
* wherever relevant I'm trying to find links to give you a better view so my replies might take longer. Also the thread is slowing down a lot *
- vijay
While it didn't have multi-touch (and really why is this such an important innovation?). My first Blackberry Pearl had applications, a full web browser (Opera) and better email functionality than the iPhone will ever have. Oh, and it had a space key that worked too.
- Kenton
Kenton, my point being every phone that touts "ADVANCED WEB BROWSER AVAILABLE" is actually not the whole story. There are different and varied shortcomings on all these phones. Now I'm pretty sure anyone could have understood that without me having to type it out. Don't ignore the point of my comment just for the sake of arguing.
- vijay
"multitouch, app store, full web browser and so much more features. Not the same." This makes no sense. It's a phone. That's the core functionality and that is the basic market that it is in. All the other stuff you mention goes into making it high-end. That's like saying Mercedes E-Class and Toyota Echo aren't the same thing because of a laundry list of features. Yes, they are different in the sense that one's is higher-end version of the same thing: A CAR.
- Chieze Okoye
yeah multitouch is a revolution. And before the iPhone EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE came with a stylus. Apple changed that and proved people that your fingers work just fine, that the screen won't scratch. HUGE.
- vijay
"it's a phone"... you were talking about "computing platforms" Chieze. Smartphones come under that not phones.
- vijay
or they're a hybrid of both markets.
- Chieze Okoye
without "apps" how is it a computing platform?!
- vijay
Anyway, I think that I've made all the points that I can make on this topic.
- Chieze Okoye
"Wait, I can't get a phone that makes calls, checks voicemails, goes on the internet and ***runs applications*** for cheaper than the iPhone?" You're missing the forest for the trees.
- Chieze Okoye
PAUSE: Why does Steven Se(a)gal support Apple? Does Chuck Norris support Dell? :p
- directeur
"goes on the internet" is NOT the same as browsing on a smartphone. I've already proved that with actual complaints of a user. I've no idea why it is so hard to see this.
- vijay
"turning hard right at 50 MPH in an E-class is not the same as trying to do the same in an Echo"
- Chieze Okoye
so compare prices with phones that offer the same features then
- vijay
Back to the altruism thing. Why doesn't Apple give the phone away for free? Wouldn't that be the best thing for the people? The most altruistic thing for Apple to do? Wouldn't our connected world be so much better if we all had the best smartphone and apps and all at the swipe of two fingers? If Apple truly wasn't in it for the money they could also subsidise the rediculous charges we...
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- Kenton
sorry I couldn't the right image but here's how much of a change iPhone has made --->- http://bit.ly/3gpf6U That's the iPhone beating an actual camera in number of shots uploaded. That's the amount of change iPhone has brought in.
- vijay
"truly wasn't in it for the money " - already addressed in my first comment here " Apple's about making -profits through innovation-."
- vijay
Nope. They are a consumer electronics company. They contribute to e-waste in the world. That's not making the world a better place.
- Rodfather
Rod humans poop. That's not making the world a better place now is it? Maybe this would be better... Apple makes the world a better place for "people"
- vijay
Rodfather: You're a carbon-based life form. You convert oxygen to carbon dioxide, aiding global warming. Is it therefore valid for me to dismiss you as a polluter and ignore what other contributions you may give to the world?
- Kevin Fox
Well, ya, humans are like a virus to the world too.
- Rodfather
Has the unibody Mac actually made the world a better place for people?
- Kenton
Less waste and less repairs due to lack of moving parts so yes in a small way. What's next Kenton? Is it gonna be "does the apple logo make the world a better place too?".
- vijay
btw, for people who hate fanboys and automatically assume anyone talking positive about macs as a "fanboy" and then turn themselves into "anti-fanboys".. I've come across Apple fanboys too, see this thread ---->- http://bit.ly/1KYGwY ( click on "show hidden threads" )
- vijay
@vijay: Apple products may be better choice for a selected group of fans. For my needs, Apple products don't offer better value (more like the opposite). So, it's matter of taste what things are important and which company is the best for each.
- Jemm
it's a matter of taste only for people who have very specific requirements Jemm, not for normal folks. Like no matter how much innovation Apple pumps into iPhone I know my linux friends over here won't touch it with a stick.. why? Just because it's not open. THERE, it is a matter of taste. For regular users it's a combo of features + UI/UX + cost.
- vijay
Vijay, you say everything Apple does is about innovation so ultimately, I guess I would have to ask that question. It is likely more productive, though, for me to just say I disagree with your assertion.
- Kenton
yeah yeah, go ahead Kenton. It's not like I'm earning money from getting people to agree with me.
- vijay
I would have to say that the market has proven your formula for regular users should be - cost+combo of features + UI/UX. Apple products appeal to those who follow combo of features + UI/UX + cost
- Kenton
Apple products appeal to a lot of people because they innovate. End of Story.
- vijay
Vijay, I'd argue it's more than that though. Plenty of companies innovate, Apple does something different. They tightly control the experience. It's a double edged sword for them, since it's also the source of their biggest weakness.
- mikepk
Mike, like I said to Alphaxion ... http://friendfeed-media.com/612df62... depends on how you define "innovation". Is innovation something simple removing the "text labels" next to the icon" or is "innovation" a game changer like the iPod or iPhone? Apple belongs to the latter category of innovation imo.
- vijay
let me confuse you even more guys! I'm a life-long windows user who loves apple but supports "open"! ---->- http://bit.ly/451tVV
- vijay
with this I'm off to bed. Thanks you guys for participating. Appreciate it. : ) EDIT: Mike, you're right. Nothing new about the tech in them. But UI/UX is what makes such a huge change. The Digital Music Revolution happened 'cause for the first time you could browse 1000 songs on your iPod without going nuts. No matter how game changing the tech is there's no point if you can't use it.
- vijay
But here's the really interesting part. Depending on your definition of innovation (technical innovation) there was nothing new about the tech in either the iphone or ipod. What they engineered though, was the end to end experience of those devices. I think the success of those devices is at least 80% due to the user experience (esp if you count 'cool' into it, but even 'cool' doesn't play as large a part as people often say). It's a holistic kind of innovation.
- mikepk
Kenton, I just looked at the article, looks like the prices were flawed originally and have been updated with newer Verizon pricing. Droid turns out more expensive (at least according to their logic). Lots of angry comments about how the author didn't check the Verizon smartphone pricing.
- mikepk
what Mike said. And Kenton... when I said iPhone 3G is 99 bucks only why did you assume I said "3GS"? 3G NOT 3GS, I said 3G NOT 3GS. I reapeated that 3 times so it can get through the thick illogical ati-apple sentiment hanging in your head. anything eh? anything, no matter how clunky the argument is, anything to take away credit from Apple eh Kenton? Open your mind up a little more.
- vijay
Besides, the whole "high end boutique computing" thing started by Chieze is flawed. That's like saying cars have not really changed human transportation 'cuz a large % of people can only afford bicycles and can't even dream of getting a car. Get this... smartphones are changing mobile computing and the one that brought it on and still continues to spur themselves AND their competition and the ENTIRE industry as a whole is Apple.
- vijay
Anyone who still has doubts about how much Apple has changed the mobile computing Industry, take a look at this ---->- http://bit.ly/s4jXC yep. EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE that you see in ads today, be it the dream or the droid or the Pre, were all the product of the change brought about by Apple. This is why Apple is a "game-changer", the entire industry has undergone a change for the better.
- vijay
While I enjoy my iPhone very deeply, I feel that one of Apple's biggest problems is that they now seem less interested in changing the game than in simply maintaining it. To be sure, there's very little incentive for them to fix what isn't broken, but my hope is that with others now stepping up to become serious competitors in the smartphone market, Apple will be forced to try a little harder. They make a fantastic product, but stronger competition may cause them to get even better.
- Noah Belson
Apple's different from other companies in that they are proactive than reactive. The common complaint when people say innovation on iPhone has stalled is lack of multitasking and flash which people expect Apple to include but as long as iPhone has a non-removable battery they won't be adding it in. Competition is always good, yes. I myself want the Pre for my next phone --->- http://bit.ly/2Z0yRi
- vijay
Interesting, I didn't know the battery was the reason they don't allow multi-tasking or a flash. Why is that? Are they worried that people will kill their batteries long before they're meant to die for good?
- Noah Belson
aye. with removable batteries suppose say in the middle of the trip your battery runs out you can swap it with the standby with other smartphones but since iPhone battery cannot be swapped out by the user ,running apps in the bg (mutltitasking) and flash would eat away the juice leaving a dead phone until you recharge it again.
- vijay
So they're just worried about people not understanding how quickly they'll run down their batteries by multitasking and using the camera flash. I guess that makes sense, but still, I'd rather they just allow it and let ME worry about how quickly the battery dies. Carring an extra charger in my car would be a small price to pay to be able to multitask without jailbreaking.
- Noah Belson
The entire business model of a closed system is to make more money.
- Michael W. May
Exactly Michael. Take away their profits and Apple's wheels come to a screeching halt just like every other business.
- Mattb4rd
Like I said in my first comment in here Apple's about "profits through innovation" not just profits by hook or crook like other companies. Hence this post.
- vijay
And it seems Todd said what I wanted, only better :)
- Michael W. May
how does it affect the fact that iPod has changed the entire music industry and the iPhone has changed the entire mobile computing industry?
- vijay
Apple hasn't changed much in the mobile market. It's share in both is still minuscule. For mobile stats: http://www.mobileisgood.com/statist... It's mp3/media player stats are much dominate, that I do not argue. None of that changes that fact that Apple is in business for profit. Whatever secondary guidelines of changing the world they follow, the primary and overriding is profit....
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- Michael W. May
my comment from above: " Anyone who still has doubts about how much Apple has changed the mobile computing Industry, take a look at this ---->- http://bit.ly/s4jXC yep. EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE that you see in ads today, be it the dream or the droid or the Pre, were all the product of the change brought about by Apple. This is why Apple is a "game-changer", the entire industry has undergone a change for the better. "
- vijay
again, Apple is "profit though innovation" not "profit by any shitty ploy we can think up". That's why they are the best company on the planet.
- vijay
"mp3/media player stats" it's not about their media player stats. Apple for the first time created an environment where people can carry a 1000 songs in their pocket. For the first time customers can buy JUST ONE SONG from an album than the WHOLE album. These two reasons combined laid the foundation for the digital music revolution paving the way for all the digital music stores like...
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- vijay
How did go about doing that? I don't deny any of that. But to ignore the amount of profit and lack of responsibility Apple's practices in digital music (remember non-drm'd mp3s only happened just this year) and the app store is to ignore that they are in many ways just as bad as any other company, in some ways worse. They didn't move to non-dmr'd music until forced. The profit they make...
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- Michael W. May
"they didn't move to non drm'd music"... wrong info. It was not apple's choice but the BIG 3 who had their say in that. The same thing happens on the iPhone where AT&T dictates the terms so Apple cannot allow any app that creates data overloading of AT&T's network.
- vijay
all the people whining about the app store restrictions shouldn't be... Steve clearly laid them out when they launched the app store --->- http://bit.ly/3hAnZ1
- vijay
And the inconsistencies with the app store approval, later revoking, later reinstating, etc, since? And what is wrong about the /fact/ they did not move to non-drm'd catalogue until forced to this year?
- Michael W. May
moving to non-drm is not Apple's choice. it's the record companies who make the choice. Apple sells the music under licensing terms with the record companies.
- vijay
app store has over 100000 apps now and the apps are rejected based on if it contains certain keywords in them. Once the dev reaches out and clarifies or adapts the app with the proper rating it is re-instated. It works just like any other "approval process".
- vijay
The Free Market catches on to "shitty ploys" rather quickly. Do you harbor such disdain for the marketplace that you doubt saavy consumerism? If so, Washington might be interested.
- Mattb4rd
Luckily Apple relies more on programmed consumerism than savvy consumerism. That guarantees a huge ROI with every product they sell and while I genuinely believe that some of their products are the best on the market, I'm not quite willing to back every play they make. I'd like my purchases to be based on what I want, not what a company tells me I need.
- Noah Belson
I have to add though that there are simply a few products that Apple cannot be touched on, such as the iphone. I did my research, tried several different things and found Apple to make the best product. If someone comes along and does better I'll jump ship (probably) but for my money it just makes sense to go with the best product. Doesn't mean I like all of Apple's products or policies but the bottom line is that if they make a truly great product- I'm there.
- Noah Belson
All of the programming in the world doesn't matter if the product is shitty. Apple makes good widgets. If they didn't, they would not be relevant. When they cure cancer, then I will jump on the "World Changer" business model bandwagon. Until then, they make good gadgets and we're [the market] willing to pay for them. It is not magic.
- Mattb4rd
Well yeah, I'd have to agree that they haven't quite earned the title of "world changer." Seems like that's mostly PR drummed by overzealous fans. Ultimately they're not doing anything that several other companies aren't also doing. They make some excellent products but the business of changing the world is best left to those who can do it without needing to sell us any electronics.
- Noah Belson
It's also a philosophy thing. As a user who is not interested in an outside party limiting my options, I went Android on my phone with the G1 when it came out, despite the iPhone being more polished since it had more development time behind it. I know the GooglyPhone will lag for a bit, but I'm happy to support the OSS. And as a PC user, I've been very happy with the lifetime and...
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- ωαřмaiden, MFA'd poet
Yeah, I can't see myself ponying up that kind of dough for laptop or desktop, not when the technology is outdated so quickly and rapidly improving so often. In terms of the iphone though, I'm less interested in availablity to 3rd party options than I am in the best and biggest apps and right now those are really only available for the iphone. And given the market share the iphone has captured- I can't see that changing anytime soon.
- Noah Belson
NEWS FLASH!! the world is not made of ONLY DISEASED PEOPLE! The lives of normal people count. The "world" includes EVERYONE not just CANCER patients. Life is made of different facets each having room for improvement and innovation. When people hang onto something and use it everyday for most of their activities as with a mobile phone, and a company makes a monumental leap in the way...
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- vijay
" But everyone else - especially when talking phones - is catching up" That is why it is called a "game changer". The entire industry as a whole changes to keep up. Just like how the iPod revolutionized music and just how iPhone is revolutionizing the mobile industry. Companies are now giving their UI NAMES! Sony calles their upcoming UI "Rachael" and HTC calls theirs "Sense". Can you...
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- vijay
my comment from above: " Anyone who still has doubts about how much Apple has changed the mobile computing Industry, take a look at this ---->- http://bit.ly/s4jXC yep. EVERY. SINGLE. SMARTPHONE that you see in ads today, be it the dream or the droid or the Pre, were all the product of the change brought about by Apple. This is why Apple is a "game-changer", the entire industry has undergone a change for the better. "
- vijay
Apple may have changed the smartphone industry but come on, they've hardly changed the world. The iPhone is not the cotton gin or movable type. Apple helps drive innovation, but in terms of actually changing the world, they're a drop in the bucket, if even. They make a great product, but let's keep things in perspective here. They're in business and their business has nothing to do with improving the world. That may be their mission statement or something but their goal is our money, first and foremost.
- Noah Belson
"drop in the bucket" is subjective. The graphs I linked to are not.
- vijay
All those graphs do is indicate how frequently certain keywords are being searched on. I'm not at all sure how that translates into "world changing." Keywords like "hannah montana" and "grandma sex" are highly searched on, but no one's thanking Miley Cyrus or sexy grandmas for changing the world, etc. Again- perspective. Apple has changed YOUR world, not THE world.
- Noah Belson
That's only cause you're reading the graphs wrong. Before the iPhone launch the search terms are "0" and after that it's been an accelerating trend upwards. That's the point. That is the change... the shift from "0" to "greater than 0". celebrities are people and smartphones are devices. People pay to watch other people on TV but how many people spend time watching a tv show about...
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- vijay
If you don't think the iPhone is the "celebrity" of the gadget world then I'm not sure what else there is to discuss here. Keyword trending is a popularity contest, plain and simple. The fact that people are searching on Apple keywords means very little in the greater scheme of things. And it has zero to do with changing our world or making it a better place. Apple products are what's for lunch right now and keyword searches are simply the menu.
- Noah Belson
before the end of today, 11 million people from across the planet will be visiting this page --->- http://bit.ly/3EnXJb Do you see an iPhone there? iPhone is a device, Celebrities are news. Calling iPhone the "celebrity" means squat because the people doing these searches don't think that way when they do these searches. They search for news and thus celebs have higher volume. That's all.
- vijay
from my comment above: "when people hang onto something and use it everyday for most of their activities as with a mobile phone, and a company makes a monumental leap in the way people use these everyday device, raising the bar and making the ENTIRE industry as a whole adapt to that change, the world has indeed changed."
- vijay
from my comment above: " Life is made of different facets each having room for improvement and innovation." Changing the world is not "mutually exclusive". When something as ubiquitous and often used by people as a mobile device undergoes a change, that is huge.
- vijay
the last few comments I've been talking only about the mobile device, but then Apple has done that again with the iPods.
- vijay
Apple doesn't change the world, their fanboys may think so though. Apple knows how to market and they do it very well. Their products are nowhere near revolutionary as people make them out to be as they usually lack features that already exist. What they do well is get people excited about something shinny and clean looking with a brand people admire and it obviously works. I like shinny & clean but I like openness, full featured and cheaper much better.
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Again, it's about the people who are using these devices. You think people like you and me make up the majority of the planet? Not hardly. We have freedoms and indulgences that many people couldn't begin to dream of. This why again I say that while Apple has absolutely changed the smartphone industry, they've done very little to change "the world." They make fantastic products but come, let's keep things in perspective. They're in the money making business, not the world changing business.
- Noah Belson
yeah Mark, before the iPods came out there were more "full featured" devices on the market with HDDs and lots of storage space. People got the iPod 'cause that UI is the only one that let people browse through a 1000 songs without losing their mind. No matter how much features a device has, it's all about usability. That's why you can see the iPhone beating a full featured cam in number...
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- vijay
"They're in the money making business, not the world changing business. " already addressed in my first comment > " Apple's about making -profits through innovation-."
- vijay
the people who keep saying it's all "features, features, features" must fantasize about women who have an elephant's trunk(longest nose on the planet! that's a feature!) and cheetah's legs(fastest legs! feature!) with a Falcon's wings(flight! feature!). As for me, I like the normal human female with nose shorter than a trunk, with legs not as powerful as a cheetah's and without wings. It's not about the best features, it's the blend of features and beauty(for humans, that would be -usability- for devices).
- vijay
Vijay, btw, you misrepresented what I said. I'm saying that Apple isn't in this to change the world and make a difference. They're in it to be the best at high-end computing because that's what they 1) have a passion for 2) can do better than anyone else and 3) can earn the most money doing. The change they bring to the world of technology isn't the point. It's an after effect of the...
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- Chieze Okoye
There are plenty of companies and organizations out there with the actual mission to "change the world" and "make a difference," as their explicit goal, though. Apple most definitely does not number among them.
- Chieze Okoye
Simply because there is change in the industry in question from one company's actions (which no one is disputing with you, btw) does not mean that that change was why the company took those actions. Going back to the automotive analogy, Mercedes (or Ferrari or whomever) is not in the game explicitly to change the landscape of personal transportation for the better. They're in it to be...
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- Chieze Okoye
Honestly, you really should read "Good to Great" by Jim Collins. I can't emphasize it enough for this topic. It jives really well with the discussion (at least in that it shows you that passion to do something well and using technology as a means to that end is not a unique trait to one company).
- Chieze Okoye
Good point Chieze. Apple has the "Hedgehog Concept" down, but what will become of it when it loses its level 5 leader?
- Mattb4rd
I got tired of trying to take a decent, respectable, trustworthy, don't-look-stupid profile pic for my employment sites. So I took a MySpace-y photo to say hi to FriendFeed instead. Hi!
Things I note in this picture: the "MySpace angle" makes my eyes look baggy. And it's time for a haircut, though perhaps I'll cheap out and just have someone gimme some bangs.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
What's wrong with your Friendfeed picture? The seriousness gives a touch of personality.
- Jordi Soler
you have a very sexy and intense look to you. Your eyes are way intense-in a very good way....
- Morgan Haley
I'm not trying to replace my FF profile pic, Jordi. I'm trying to get a decent new pic for my 'official' profiles used in my job search. Right now they have the default goofy face (which is better than most of the shots I took, trust me!).
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
And Morgan, that's my "I DARE YOU to ask me to sell insurance!!!" look. Well, almost: I'm missing the snarl.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
For official profiles try one with glasses on (fake glasses if you don't use 'em). The sexy-dirty-secretary look is a winner!
- Jordi Soler
LOL! Jordi, that was the problem with the pics I took: I had my glasses on and either kept getting reflections in the lenses or inadvertantly crossing that dirty secretary look. Not what I wanted!
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
i wouldn't dare try to sell you insurance....no way....but a rice cooker? Hmmm, maybe I'll try...
- Morgan Haley
The proper profile pic is important! The pic on my LinkedIn page is NOTHING like any of my other profile pics. I think you did a great job.
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
I'm still without the proper profile pic, Tutivillus. This was me giving up and taking a shot for FF since the profile shots all made me look like a doofus. I are not a doofus! Wait...
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
this is way too awesome to be myspace-y.
- Jim Hearts FF
Tina, if you can get your hands on a polarized filter for you camera, that'll solve your reflection problem with your glasses.
- Jason Huebel
I'd say that's like 4 on the richter scale of MySpacey photos :)
- anna sauce
I know, Jason, but the polarizing filter I have isn't for the camera I have. If I had a job I'd buy a new one, but then I wouldn't need the filter to take the picture if I had a job. Catch 22s suck...
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I still don't have a pic on LinkedIn. Tina, I'm no photographer, but I bet if you had a little fill light you could de-emphasize the bags under the eyes. (I notice this with myself, because I am incredibly vain. And have giant bags under my eyes, even if I have enough sleep, etc etc)
- Andrew C
I'd say raise up your chin a tad, sit up straight, and place the camera on a pile of books with a liht source- lamp, etc. eye level and off to the side. It would lessen the bags and make it a little less MySpacey, also think of something funny and don't worry about averting your eyes. This is really done best by someone else- it's *so hard* to take a good self-portrait.
- anna sauce
OT, but how come FB doesn't have a portrait "style" like Myspace does?
- Andrew C
Andrew- it does, it's called "me and my kids" or "just my kids" or "me in foriegn country" or "me with a girl/boy cut out because we broke up" lol
- anna sauce
The picture I use practically everywhere is from my brother's wedding reception. I cropped out the Black and Tan beer I was drinking. That wouldn't be very professional. ;-)
- Jason Huebel
Wow, that's uncanny. You and I share no friends on FB AFAIK and yet you just described most of them.
- Andrew C
Just to clarify: this isn't one of my profile photo attempts. This is a cell pic taken with no light other than what's coming in a dirty window. Sad part is I wound up looking way less douchey in this than in my the actual attempts =P I think the profile photo will be tomorrow morning's challenge: take advantage of the morning light since I won't have to be at a farce of a job interview.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
srsly. this should be re-posted to the 'beautiful women' group. :)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
So what were you coding at the time you took this pic? In BASIC, you say? How very relevant!
- WorldofHiglet
In fact, I was attempting to hone my photography skills, as a portion of my research on the state of the unemployed in today's economy. Very deep stuff...
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I look forward to your white paper in due course.
- WorldofHiglet
Random Passerby in the Cube Farm: WHO'S THAT; Me: That's my friend Tina, now go away; RPITCB (drooling): SHE'S PURRRRTY; Me: GO AWAY
- MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS
We all know you rock Tina .... Can't understand why you haven't be 'scooped up' yet ..... Keep pluggin' !
- Charlie Anzman
Barry, that's freakin' hilarious! Tell them that if they stare too long I'll eat their soul or something equally weird and see what they do!
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
very neat, intelligent glamor look site! ... too bad it's married - to Faith Bough. ..why can't ff have profiles just as mySpace, or ..similar big social sites ? has the development stopped again? ,
- Petr Buben
Wow, I just saw this today, sorry I'm late. I think it's a great pic for employment profiles. You've got an utterly beautiful face, Tina, and you certainly don't look like a douche in this pic. Good luck with everything!
- phil baumann
Hi Tina, don't know ya, but this is an ABSOFREAKINLUTELY great pic...those eyes, WOW!
- Samuel Ancira Jr
Way too many hormones in this thread's comments. Really, guys, come on, behave!...
- Zackatoustra
Such as driving everywhere to get disapproving looks from environmentist douchebags or eating chicken to upset smug vegans.
- Akiva Moskovitz
from BuddyFeed
I'm the same way, maybe we can found a party? Let's a have Con! The original Con. A CONtinental CONgress.
- Matthew DeVries
"Adapted from "Mediterranean Clay Pot Cooking" by Paula Wolfert. She recommends using an 11- or 12-inch Spanish cazuela or straight-sided Flameware skillet. She also recommends using a heat diffuser for slow, steady cooking (especially if using an electric or ceramic stove top). Aleppo pepper can generally be found in Middle Eastern markets and cooking stores, as well as online. Marash pepper can be found at select Middle Eastern markets and online."
- Derrick
from Bookmarklet
The postcard says "Postage will be paid by addressee", which implies it's the senator who will be paying the postage. Of course, the senator's franking privileges may make it so that the taxpayers pay the postage.
- Gabe
True. But why is it that the Senator Hagan/taxpayers should be paying for Blue Cross' message?
- Christopher Chung
My friend did this, too. I hope I get one in the mail.
- Ayşe E.
They haven't sent me one of these, but when they do, I'll be sure to mail it in unmodified (or with a big "NO ON PUBLIC OPTION" written on it, perhaps). The very notion of government run health insurance is a travesty that will end up bankrupting this country.
- Otto
So you don't think Medicare or the Veterans Health Administration is going to pan out, even after all these years?
- Mark Trapp
Medicare and the VA system are living proof of my statements. They offer crappy service and are continually costing more and more as time goes on. They are unsustainable in the long term, and basically expanding these failures to cover everybody is only going to accelerate the problem.
- Otto
What's long term? The VA system has been going since 1778, and Medicare since 1965. Are you thinking at the 300 year mark, they'll finally collapse?
- Mark Trapp
Right on! Good for you! That's a great idea
- Ciaoenrico
Our Canadian single-payer health care has been going strong for some time now with no risk of bankruptcy. I'd like to see some evidence that our system is unsustainable.
- Matt Mastracci
The VA system is garbage, ask any veteran who has to use it on a regular basis. And medicare is on the verge of bankruptcy, and has been for at least decade now. Last I checked, medicare was the biggest drain of tax revenue that exists. Predictions I've seen give it 10 more years, tops, even with restructuring.
- Otto
Of course, the assertion that government-run health insurance is unsustainable (whether Medicare, the VA, the Canadian system, or any other) raises the question of what system is more sustainable than government-run insurance. It's certainly not the current American one. ... I love April's use of the mailer.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of health care reform... But insurance reform is unnecessary. The problem is not the insurance companies, their reactions and bad-behaviors are created by the high cost of medical care to begin with. Fix the health care system to not cost so damn much, and the problems with insurance will solve themselves. Strike at the source of the problems, not at the consequences of them.
- Otto
Otto: Insurance causes high prices of medical care. Since you don't pay, the hospital can set its prices arbitrarily high and the insurance company pays whatever its maximum is. Since the insurance company pays so much, they have to have high insurance rates, which makes insurance expensive to buy. If the government had their own insurance, they would be big enough to demand low prices,...
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- Gabe
That's insane. The existence of insurance does not cause the high price of medial care. You have it exactly backwards. Furthermore, the idea of a government-run-insurance plan would not solve that problem, if it was at all the truth, because you're dealing with a supply demand situation. The government run plan could say they weren't going to pay above $X, at which point the medical...
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- Otto
The truth is that most of the waste in medical costs comes from two places: administrative overhead and fraud. Both of these are primarily caused by Medicare and the bureaucracy surrounding it.
- Otto
@Otto - why do you think there is so much administrative overhead? To deal with all the different insurance companies and the reems of paperwork to get a claim approved and avoid malpractice suits. That means more people have to be hired and trained just to deal with all that stuff and more systems and processes have to be put in place to handle it all. Insurance companies make more...
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- Lindsay
@Lindsay: I know several people who work in administrative roles in hospitals. Not one of them agrees with you. The problem isn't the insurance forms and such, those are fairly standard. Almost all of the administrative overhead is due specifically to Medicare. And no, I do not work in the health insurance industry, so your ad-hominem attack makes no sense whatsoever. Why is it that...
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- Otto
@Robert: I'm not ignoring evidence from other countries, I'm discounting most of it based on facts that contradict the ones you are linking to. And Medicare has lower costs than private insurance because it rarely pays for anything. How many people who have medicare must also have their own insurance in order to get proper medical treatment? Have you looked up the numbers on that?
- Otto
Otto, how does limiting the pricing result in providers refusing service? In Canada, the Federal Government sets the pricing schedule, but the private providers are still here, providing us good service for a set fee. More info on our system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... I would say that our health care system is an excellent counterpoint to "if you fix the fees at a certain point, providers will stop providing service".
- Matt Mastracci
Otto - would you care to share some references which contain the facts that contradict those which I shared? I am open-minded, but I need to see actual data from credible sources to form my opinions.
- Robert Felty
How does Otto make the claim that insurance isn't even part of the problem when medical loss ratios in the health insurance business have dropped from 95% to 80% in just 15 years? (and if you don't know what that means, you don't have an informed opinion about health care reform.)
- Andrew C
I am always amazed at the ignorance of those arguing against public health care services when practically the entire world is doing it and they always have their facts wrong about Medicare and every other system. They'll become advocates when they or their loved ones are being evicted or foreclosed upon while they are dying an excruciating and untreated death.
- Brad Nickel
Otto, just exactly how many veterans have you actually talked to? The VA definitely has flaws, but all the veterans I've talked to seem to like the service provided, and often compare it favorably to the private sector. And why are all those people out there so opposed to changing Medicare if it's so terrible? Since you've stated you haven't seen a doctor in decades, how could you possibly have any experience with any health care system whatsoever?
- Victor Ganata
FFS... @Matt: Canada has a lower doctor to patient ratio than anybody else does, and it's decreasing all the time. @Robert: You have Google. Use it. I wouldn't believe links you provide me, so why should you believe links I provide you? Do your own research and make up your own mind. I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else, and I frankly don't care what you believe. @Andrew C:...
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- Otto
*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by second-hand anecdotal evidence from someone who doesn't have any recent direct experience with any health care system? If you don't care, why do you continue to post?
- Victor Ganata
*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by somebody who actually has a vested interest in the health care system (ie, a doctor)? See, I can use fallacious arguments as well as you can, Victor! ;) Also, I post to express my opinions and ideas. Why else would anybody post anything?
- Otto
Otto, your facts on doctor:patient ratio are incorrect. Our ratio is 2.2 per 1000, versus 2.4 per 1000 in the USA. In fact, our ratio has improved from 2.1 in the 1990s. While our doctor:patient ratio is not as high as other public health care systems, it isn't far off that of the USA.
- Matt Mastracci
Otto, but, fair is fair, so long as you don't pretend your anecdotes are generalizable truth, I won't pretend mine are either. It is clear that you do have quite a grasp on fallacious arguments. :) And I do agree that it's important to consider the source of your evidence.
- Victor Ganata
Otto, the dropping medical loss ratio specifically means an increasing share of premiums isn't going towards paying for health care; that is /by itself/ inherently bad! In an actual working market, advances in efficiency, if any, would be passed along to the consumers in the form of lower premiums. Instead, prices are getting jacked up even faster than health care inflation because the health care insurance industry exploits monopoly power.
- Andrew C
@Matt: According to the WHO: http://nofearsingapore.blogspot.com/2007... the numbers are slightly different. Close, admittedly. However, the important thing to note is that Canada's ratio is the lowest among almost all industrialized countries, which was my point. I was not comparing to the US, specifically.
- Otto
@Andrew C: I understand what "medical loss ratio" means. I understand what "profit" and "premiums" are. What I don't understand is why you think a company should not be allowed to make a legitimate profit? Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble. Or, if you really want to see the loss ratios decrease, then ALLOW COMPETITION. Currently there is virtually no...
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- Otto
You make no sense. A company should certainly be allowed to make a legitimate profit, but indefinitely extracting rent at this level is a clear symptom of market-setting power. Trying to call one the other doesn't actually make them the same thing. Also, people can only reasonably get it from their employer _because that's the only affordable option_. Individual insurance exists; it's...
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- Andrew C
I find it pretty funny BTW that you have implicitly agreed with the rest of us that the health care _insurance_ industry actually is part of the problem.
- Andrew C
"Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble." It shouldn't have to be a game. Everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their life. It's a matter of how you will be able to afford to pay for it. People pay for insurance because it's the only way they can afford to ensure that their health will be taken care of. It's not really an option if you...
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- Lindsay
lolling at the "insurance is a gamble" statement. Classic.
- Andrizzle Gizzle
It's the conservative message: You're On Your Own.
- Andrew C
For the record, I'm not a conservative. I'm also not a liberal. I'm a person, with my own opinions and ideas. Labeling people only means that you're not paying attention to what they're saying.
- Otto
@Andrew C: Individual insurance is priced out of the market because of regulations limiting what kinds of plans can be offered. Why can I not a health insurance plan for, say, emergencies only? I'm healthy, I don't have any need to go to the doctor much, I never get sick, the only reason I'd need to do so would be an accident. So why can't I buy that insurance? State regulations...
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- Otto
@Lindsay: Your statements are provably false. Not everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their lives. Furthermore, if your statement was true, health insurance would not work at all, since the entire point of "insurance" is to spread risk. If risk was 100%, as you claim, then there's nothing to spread. For the record, I do not currently have, nor need, health...
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- Otto
So basically you're gambling, hoping that you will "win the game". At what point do you decide you need insurance? And hopefully you don't get anything before then. It is pointless to argue with someone like this, just let him enjoy his smug satisfaction on having figured out the whole mess.
- Andrizzle Gizzle
Everyone has some chance of getting hit by a bus or eating E.coli tainted food or having a tree branch fall on them. {shrug}
- Andrew C
Except for the winners who have somehow divined ways not to do so, I guess.
- Andrew C
Otto is completely right. Insurance, not having insurance, it's all gambling. What's relevant is regulation limits choices; or forces one person's judgement and preferences on another. Big government healthcare won't work because the government can't do anything well because unlike a market it doesn't have distributed knowlege and I don't think the incentives are right. Witness the UK's...
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- Rob Fisher
While I don't know if we're using the word catastrophe in the same way, clearly there are policies that have very high deductibles where realistically, the only time they would pay benefits would be if you ended up hospitalized. And there are plenty of policies that don't cover preventative care at all. Even these types of policies are out of the reach of quite a few Americans.
- Victor Ganata
What a silly response Otto. Its all emotional. Why do you think the argument here is so passionate? The fact that you would even dismiss it that way tells me everything I need to know about your point of view and existence. Sad.
- Brad Nickel
from email
If "the government can't do anything well" why do they even exist? Unless you're an anarchist, I can't see how it makes sense.
- Victor Ganata
There are limited things governments might be good at. Defense of the realm; keeping the peace. They are not good at providing goods and services. When they try to provide (or control the supply of) food, for example, you get famine. That's because you need market signals to stimulate [the right amount of] supply [and demand<delete], and that information is not centralised. The same problem affects government supplied healthcare. Hence waiting lists.
- Rob Fisher
We have waiting lists now. In what way are the NHS's waiting lists worse than the delays caused by having to argue with insurance companies to get coverage for diagnostic tests, procedures, and specialist referrals?
- Victor Ganata
Because the latter involves the invisible hand somehow!
- Andrew C
It's hard to say. I'm not arguing that you don't have a problem, just that more government isn't the solution. E.g. on the NHS you often end up paying for your own treatment anyway just so you get it in time. This is not an improvement.
- Rob Fisher
So that's not really different from the current system we have now: you can always pay cash. I think "more government isn't the solution" is a bare assertion that needs a fair amount of evidence to actually prove.
- Victor Ganata
Medicare and the VHA have waiting lists? Really? I haven't ever heard anyone waiting for Medicare, and it's single payer. I haven't heard of anyone in England (or Canada, or any other developed country) put on a waiting list. Do you have evidence to support that? You would write off education, food safety, the highway system, firemen, and air safety as well? Seems like you're asking for a very extreme form of government that isn't very much like what developed countries are or what they provide.
- Mark Trapp
Otto: The way that discourse works in research-based journals is that one person makes a claim, and backs that up with either data, and/or references to other research. I would happily read any references you give. I don't understand why you wouldn't look at references that I give.
- Robert Felty
Rob Fisher: if government controlled healthcare doesn't work, then why does Canada spend less on health care per person, but have lower infant mortality rates, and longer life expectancy? In addition, these numbers have improved since they started their single payer system, while our numbers have basically remained flat. http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues...
- Robert Felty
Victor: What can I say? You probably won't be impressed by my Austrian economics theory. You could come and live in the UK and get sick, and see what it's like. :) I do hope the USA manages to avoid the worst of it. Maybe look around at what many other countries do; I don't think anyone gets it quite right. Singapore seems to have good healthcare; but their statistics look good partly...
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- Rob Fisher
Part of the reason all healthcare isn't like that is because not all health procedures and exams are as simple as eye exams.
- Andrew C
I also think it's fallacious to believe we're actually arguing about a completely government controlled system. The public option is not even close to a true single-payer system, and nowhere near a nationalized health care system. It is quite similar to Medicare, except with different eligibility criteria, and as far as I can tell, Medicare doesn't seem to have destroyed the private health insurance industry, no matter how many people try to argue that slippery slope.
- Victor Ganata
You probably can't get a new liver in an hour and expect to have a good outcome no matter where you go.
- Victor Ganata
But you should be able to get simple scans and tests quickly and cheaply. You can't on the NHS. The point about this not being about an NHS-like system is taken, though.
- Rob Fisher
If you are insured by a private insurer in the US your health fate is decided by insurance underwriters and doctor panels whose sole mandate is to save and make money for the company- not to keep you healthy or prevent you from getting sick or sicker. A doctor's intuition on what a patient may need, even in terms of preventative/investigative testing is hooey as far as they are...
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- Karma Martell
How do we get to a point where you can make money by keeping people healthy? People want to be healthy, so it must be doable.
- Rob Fisher
The prescription drug cos would fold, Rob. That is not what they want.
- Karma Martell
i wish i could do more than "like" this. oh, and while i'm here loving this, @Rob Fisher -- my answer is, make money doing something other than "keeping people healthy" -- putting profit and human life in the same objective is bound to have some horrifying conflicts of interest, no matter how pure the "health" motivation is. and with $$ involved, it will never even be close to approximating pure.
- (dot)lizard kelly
@Rob - you can make money by keeping people healthy, but as (dot)lizard kelly just said, you can make _more_ money by not... for example, by collecting premiums from healthy people and denying coverage to your sick customers.
- Andrew C
@kelly - I wouldn't mind people profiting by keeping people healthy. Hospitals and doctors do that. The trouble with insurance companies is that they profit by denying people care.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Karma: As long as *someone* can make money at it, doesn't matter who. (dot)lizard kelly: food is important to be healthy; people make money at providing food; no conflict of interest there. I'm not convinced there's anything so different about healthcare. I'll sleep on it and let you know if I have thought of an amazing business plan in the morning. And if it doesn't work, I'll be looking for regulations that stop it working.
- Rob Fisher
(I suspect the reason is you can't switch insurance companies easily.)
- Rob Fisher
Simple scans and tests frequently lead to incidental findings that are almost always benign but lead to literal million dollar workups. I actually don't think easy access to everything is always the right answer.
- Victor Ganata
The food example may not be a good counter-argument here in the U.S., where farmers have actually been paid not to grow things in order to artificially keep prices up.
- Victor Ganata
Evidently you and others that spout this free market gobbldy gook have never worked for corporate America and the absolute incompetence in those organizations. Hello , can you say mortgage, banking, savings and loan, energy, etc etc etc. It is a lie and a myth and you folks have gotten away with it for far too long! Thanks, Brad
- Brad Nickel
from email
I have worked for corp America. As Brad says, free market is never free. The wealth is not distributed. There needs to be accountability and standards. As Obama says, an insurance co should not be able to come between a decision made by you and your doctor. And Victor, it's about fair access, not just access if you have the money and you can override the system.
- Karma Martell
The problem is that access is controlled by two forces: actual medical need, and the need to generate a profit, and lots of times these forces end up opposing each other. As the costs of medical care continue to increase, I think we're going to have to decide as a society which is actually more important.
- Victor Ganata
This is not to say that I don't think people who actually provide the care shouldn't be compensated for their labor. (In my case, that's just self-interest.) But there's a huge difference between fair compensation and outright profiteering.
- Victor Ganata
So who is paying for the "Public Option"?
- Brett Veenstra
And who here does not know Blue Cross is a private company.
- Mahmood Padura
If you go by what's in the House bill, the public option will initially be financed by seed money from the federal government that is supposed to be paid back in 10 years. In the long run, it's supposed to be funded entirely by the premiums of people who choose to participate in the plan.
- Victor Ganata
Otto: it is not the existence of insurance companies that keep prices high (auto insurance's existence doesn't make auto repairs artificially inflated), it is how the system works. If I am a healthcare provider and you are a patient who will only pay $100 no matter how expensive the treatment is, I can set the price as high as I want. Your insurance might only cover $500, but somebody else's might cover $1000 or $5000, so there's no reason I shouldn't set my price at $5000 for the treatment.
- Gabe
Furthermore, let's say that there's a 1% chance that you'll need another $5000 test (an MRI perhaps). If you do need it and I don't give it to you, there's a chance you'll sue me and my malpractice insurance goes way up. If I give it to you and you don't need it, you don't care because you're not paying for it. You end up getting lots unnecessary tests just so I don't get sued. In...
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- Gabe
I dunno, didn't Japan solve the MRI problem by providing lots of them and driving the cost-per-exam down? ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh... )
- Andrew C
And besides, the insurance companies in the States deal with that problem by denying procedures.
- Andrew C
It might be instructive to look at the US airline industry before and after deregulation. It used to be that prices were fixed, so airlines competed on service. This meant that service was good, and profits were built-in so airlines weren't constantly in bankruptcy. It also meant that flying was a luxury that most people could not afford, which made it not so crowded either. After...
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- Gabe
Unless you intend on repealing EMTALA, access to emergency care regardless of ability to pay is in fact a guaranteed right in the U.S.
- Victor Ganata
Hmmmm... Unless Crutis you think they fall within Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! Thanks, Brad
- Brad Nickel
from email
What of someone is happiest if they choose not to acquire health care insurance? It would seem to me that the imposition would thwart their pursuit and remove their liberty.
- Mattb4rd
When are we going to learn that the cake really is a lie? Re: Washington D.C. - I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
- Mattb4rd
Civilization is impossible without some form of government. The idea that we can live without it is the lie.
- Victor Ganata
No, the lie is that government is somehow required in all aspects of daily life. Civilization does need government, but mostly it needs it to stay as small as possible and leave people alone as much as possible. You are not a child. Grow up and deal with your own problems instead of expecting the rest of society to take care of you.
- Otto
BTW, a "public option" doesn't actually bother me provided you use absolutely zero tax money to pay for it. Make it paid for entirely by the premiums of the people who opt-in to it, and I have no further argument against it whatsoever. (Also, eliminate the part of the current plan that imposes tax penalties on those of us who choose to not have health insurance, as that is simply flat-out wrong. If I choose to cover my own risk, then that is my business, not the governments.)
- Otto
Yeah Otto, that works well. For example banks, mortgage companies, savings and loans, toys from China, Enron.... The naive Libertarian view of the world that somehow everything will work out in the end and all will be well makes me laugh every time I hear it. Greed, perversion, violence, and chaos don't go away when the government goes away. Human run institutions are all equally flawed...
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- Brad Nickel
from email
Brad: I don't know what world you're living in, but it's not the same one I am. Government has done very little good in the world, and is in fact responsible for the vast majority of evil in it. Perhaps you forget who's waging wars, eh? A few people inconvenienced by a bank or who signed bad mortgages doesn't really much compare to millions and millions of dead people. Also, "this...
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- Otto
Sure, because the US Department of Defense had absolutely nothing to do with the Internet whatsoever. But I agree. To believe that the government is either completely virtuous or always evil is delusional.
- Victor Ganata
Actually Otto, religion and greed are responsible for most of the wars. Whether a government fights them or not is irrelevant and these days its private corporations that are fighting much of our wars and doing a piss poor job of it as evidenced by the debacle that is Iraq. That there is a fine example of where we should have let government run things, but we had to privatize things at...
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- Brad Nickel
from email
@Victor: The DoD had very little to do with creating the internet, short of funding it. They paid for it in order to connect universities together (whom they were funding for other projects as well). It's not like they sent over a bunch of engineers to lay some cables or actually wrote any of the protocols or anything. Vint Cerf didn't actually go work for DARPA until 1976. The first pipes were laid when he was still in school.
- Otto
@Brad: It's amazing to me that anybody can espouse a philosophy like yours, which enables governments to control the population and do basically anything they like, including killing millions of innocent people through senseless wars and immoral legislation. Corporations didn't bomb Iraq and Afghanistan, the federal government did. Corporations didn't lie to us about the non-existent...
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- Otto
Yes, because ordinary people with no funding or government backing whatsoever can always complete large scale worldwide projects if they just work hard enough, without any assistance. Rugged individualism FTW.
- Victor Ganata
@Victor: Why must everything come down to "large scale" and "worldwide" in your view? Are you so incapable of taking care of your own problems that you want to a) take care of everybody else's and b) have yours taken care of by everybody else? We're talking about health care. Why must "health" be a worldwide problem, to the extent that you want to take away individual rights in favor of...
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- Otto
Otto, where are we talking about taking away individual rights? I'm talking about HR 3200, not some fantastical single payer system or some nationalized health care system from your paranoid nightmares. Don't be a fool. Look around you right now. Clearly health can be a worldwide problem. And it's disingenuous to believe the Internet would have been built if some government hadn't been around to provide funding.
- Victor Ganata
Silly Otto... Its obvious that an informed conversation with you is impossible, since you are unable to defend your actual philosophy or arguments and rely upon distortions and extremely silly exaggerations to try and make a point when the question being asked can not be answered with the truth. This happens every single time I debate a Libertarian. They can't explain themselves or how...
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- Brad Nickel
from email
Because we'll have to pay for your silly self to keep you alive when you are sick and dying and don't have coverage.
- Brad Nickel
from email
@Victor: HR3200 takes away my right to choose my own health insurance (in my case, none) by imposing additional taxation and penalties for my choice. It also uses tax money to finance the "public option", which I'm firmly opposed to. And it's disingenuous to believe that the internet would have NOT been built if the government had not provided the funding. It would have happened...
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- Otto
@Brad: I'm tired of listening to your socialist and communist rhetoric. (See? I can apply incorrect labels just as well as you can! I'm not a "Libertarian".) Anyway, if you want the government to control your life, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested. Also, if you can find anywhere I called you anything other than "Brad", I'd be very interested. Note: Saying your ideas amount to "totalitarianism" isn't name-calling when it's true.
- Otto
You are a funny guy Otto and I mean that in all the ways it can be interpreted.
- Brad Nickel
Fine. Welcome to my block list, Brad. If you ever grow up and decide that you want to have a real conversation instead of trolling, then I'll be happy to oblige you. Until then, just rant incoherently to somebody else, eh?
- Otto
LOL. See what I mean. You are funny.
- Brad Nickel
Are you kidding me about the Internet, Otto? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Note that 2 of the original nodes were UC schools--government funded public schools. With HR 3200, it's obviously going to take money to get the public option up and running, but it's supposed to be paid back in 10 years. As for the mandate, it's not ideal, but I don't see how else it will work. Otherwise,...
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- Victor Ganata
No, I think they are supposed to let him die.
- Brad Nickel
@Victor: No, I'm not kidding, and that link backs up every word I just said about it. As for the public option paying for itself, are you joking? Medicare is continuously in the red (average benefit per person in Medicare is $11,000 per year!) , and you think making a bigger version will somehow magically work? As for the mandate, that's an absolute deal-breaker, because it it is...
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- Otto
That's how government projects almost always work: they award private companies contracts to do the work. Even HR 3200 is structured that way.
- Victor Ganata
If you actually look at it, HR 3200 isn't structured like Medicare. And why is it that state laws that mandate you to carry auto insurance if you drive haven't been struck down by the Supreme Court if it's so unconstitutional? If you're totally healthy there are policies with $10,000 annual deductibles that cost like $50 a month. Obviously, the health insurance companies would rather you pay for a more expensive plan if they can get you to.
- Victor Ganata
Why in the world is a high deductible insurance plan not what you want, Otto?
- Andrew C
"Medicare is continuously in the red" - regular people who aren't on Medicare either lose benefits or coverage entirely or get outrageous rate hikes, so I'm not sure why you seem to keep claiming private insurance is any better...
- Andrew C
My goodness, a single-payer plan in BC costs ~$54/person/month and the deductible is way lower than $10K. And what I lose in 'freedom', I gain back in peace of mind and more money in my pocket overall. (and isn't the glibertarian definition of freedom money?) (Amazingly, the US actually spends as much _government_ money on health care per capita as Canada, and then of course far more in private money on top.)
- Andrew C
@Victor: a) State laws don't require you to carry auto insurance. They require you to carry auto insurance *OR* post a bond for some fixed amount, in case you hit somebody else. and b) Auto insurance is about liability (protecting other people from you), while health insurance is not (it's about about protecting you from other things, people included).
- Otto
@Andrew C: I fail to understand the question. A high deductible insurance plan is not what I want, because it is not what I want. What I want is a health insurance plan that will only cover me from, say, accident. Something that doesn't cover routine crap which I won't be needing anyway, or which I can pay for myself. In cases where there is an accident, I don't want *any* deductible,...
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- Otto
A high deductible plan effectively only covers you for catastrophes, because you're on your own for the first $5K or $10K, so all "routine crap" will be out of pocket.
- Andrew C
BTW, not seeing a doctor even for routine checkups is also gambling. Good luck with that.
- Andrew C
"Effectively" is not the same thing as actually. And if there was some kind of major incident, I'd still be on the hook for the $10k, which is still problematic. Basically, a high deductible means that you're getting no real coverage at all, it's not disaster coverage.
- Otto
The $10k outlay doesn't sound problematic to me; you've been investing your money, right?
- Andrew C
Andrew C: No, it's not. There is no actual need for "routine checkups" in a healthy human being. You'd free to disagree, but I'm just going to say you're wrong, and that is that, so there's no point in arguing it. And whether I can afford $10k or not is beside the point, it's still not the type of coverage I actually need or want.
- Otto
Otto - You have a valid point that insurance is designed to cover catastrophes. It turns out that preventative medicine helps to avoid catastrophes though. So it is in the best interest of insurance companies to encourage their customers to get preventative care. One way to do that is to pay fot it. Another way to do it would be to give people discounts for getting regular checkups, just like you get discounts on auto insurance for having a good driving record.
- Robert Felty
Yeah, there really is no point in arguing with you, not when you just make statements and "that is that". (Good thing cancer never starts off growing in the body for years before becoming a major problem! And that arteries don't ever get clogged before they close up entirely.)
- Andrew C
Robert: Preventative medicine does help to avoid catastrophe, however, it's also far cheaper to cover your own costs there instead of relying on insurance coverage to pay for it for you. It makes no sense for insurance to cover basic care. You don't pay for gasoline with your auto insurance, do you? The fact that insurance covers basic care means added burdens to the administrative overhead, higher premiums, etc, etc. It's a bad system overall.
- Otto
OK, so you want catastrophic coverage that starts from dollar 1 for accidents, but no insurance for routine procedures. I think this is a little ridiculous, but you're right, I don't think insurance companies offer that.
- Andrew C
Insurance companies are actively prevented from offering it, is what you meant to say. Many state laws require certain minimum levels of coverage, so the plan I want/need is unavailable to me because of over-regulation.
- Otto
Preventative care isn't gasoline. Food is the analogy to gasoline. And no, health care insurance doesn't pay for food.
- Andrew C
@Andrew C: Okay then, if you don't like that metaphor... Does your auto insurance pay for oil changes? My point is that health care should not pay for routine stuff *unless I want it to*. I do not want it to, I'm perfectly capable of dealing with routine stuff on my own.
- Otto
Otto - this is not just about you though. It is mostly about the millions of people who don't have any insurance at all right now. Also, with the oil change analogy, that is not quite right either. Standard auto insurance does not pay for vehicle failure. It pays for vehicle damage due to accidents. There probably is a small correlation between frequency of oil changes and automobile accidents, but I bet that the correlation between regular colonoscopies and advanced colon cancer is much higher.
- Robert Felty
Robert: Auto insurance does indeed pay for vehicle failure, if you have comprehensive insurance. Depends on the type of failure. On the other hand, you can get liability insurance to only pay for accidents caused by you, if you so want. You have choice of what to get. And I'd venture to bet that the correlation between colonoscopies and colon cancer is indeed quite high, but in the...
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- Otto
Otto - my dad gets regular colonoscopies, because he has diverticulosis, and I am not ready for him to die just yet.
- Robert Felty
Robert: He has a medical condition. I'd hardly call that "routine maintenance", sort of thing.
- Otto
Sure. The reason why health insurance companies don't offer plans like that are completely because all 50 states have strict mandates, and certainly not because the health insurance companies don't think they're profitable and would prefer that you pay for more coverage. Of course it's always the government's fault, and never the invisible hand's.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: In this case, what I said was in fact true. All 50 states and even the federal government have tons of regulations on the health insurance industry. Rates, premiums, etc.. these are all fixed by the individual states. The insurance companies have to work within a very narrow window of guidelines, sort of thing. This is one reason that so many of them have tried hard to deny...
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- Otto
The only regulation I see that applies to all 50 states is that insurance companies have to be solvent, capable of paying claims, and able to process claims in timely fashion. Fact is, the insurance companies have continued to make record profits despite all these regulations, so I'm not exactly going to cry them a river.
- Victor Ganata
Switzerland gets by with strict regulation... Admittedly, I doubt they have the kind of catastrophe-only plans you like, but (1) the insurers there make it work, and (2) they achieve better coverage and outcomes than the current US system does.
- Andrew C
@Brad Nickel - The right to life does not imply the right to the labor and property of other individuals. Medicine is exactly that: the products and services of tremendously skilled individuals. To claim by right their labor and products is the moral equivalent of slavery.
- Crutis
I just can't get over the rhetoric. It truly makes me laugh outloud. Slave labor. It's not worthy of further debate.
- Brad Nickel
from email
It's hardly slavery when health care professionals take oaths to serve society in exchange for the position of privilege it puts them in. And they provide care that isn't fully compensated quite frequently: it's part and parcel of many of the contracts they sign with insurance companies. Are you going to call that slavery too?
- Victor Ganata
@Victor, no I call it what it is: charity. Charity should be encouraged. @Brad, when you stop laughing maybe you can refute the right of a physician to contract with a patient without government interference. Until then the only laughable idea is the logical conclusion of your argument that physicians could be imprisoned unless they run their businesses for free or at a loss.
- Crutis
It is impossible to be a physician without government interference, since license to practice is issued by the state. I'm not sure I'd want it otherwise, personally. Anyway, once again we're straying from the topic at hand: there's nothing in HR 3200 that says you have to accept gov't issued insurance, anymore than you have to accept Medicare or Medicaid. It will still be quite possible to have a nice little boutique practice without getting a paycheck from the gov't.
- Victor Ganata
I do medical billing for a nursing home. Those of you who are in favor of a public option obviously don't understand Medicare and Medicaid. We couldn't take care of anybody if we had to rely only on what the government pays. And doctors didn't go to school for all those years and incur all that debt just to be civil servants with tons of red tape and poor compensation. There will be a huge shortage of doctors within a decade. If the bill passes the Senate, we're in for a true disaster.
- Dawn