 |
|
| FriendFeed is the easiest way to share online. Learn more » |
Melanie Reed › Comments
A Burrito Is Not A Sandwich « Burrito Justice - http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/2009...
Katie: Witch Of The West, Alfredo, Dimka☂ and 6 other people liked this
"breadXbread shares this opinion. Turns out the Massachusetts legal system has weighed in on the matter as well. A mall bakery had negotiated a “sandwich exclusivity clause” and sued when a burrito maker moved in. Verdict — a burrito is not a sandwich. Food topology and anthropology was raised as evidence in the trial (two slices of bread vs a single tortilla, European vs Mexican roots)."
- Micah Wittman
from Bookmarklet
Thanks for the share. :) Love the poetry.
- Anika
Anika, yeah - and Burrito Justice, I mean there's a blog for everything isn't there.
- Micah Wittman
I think the Earl of Sandwich would agree with the verdict and probably get back to his next pool shot.
- Melanie Reed
Good one, Melanie :)
- Micah Wittman
But Burritos have that problem of being left with yuck at the beginning (the double folded end) great in the middle, then yuck again at the end (the other double folded end). An commodity whose first and last impression are bad is destined to fail against something that consists of homogeneous good payout through the whole experience like a sandwich.
- Matthew DeVries
The first bite of some sandwiches are awkward to say the least. So, I give you 1/2 credit.
- Micah Wittman
You’re Teaching My Kid What? - http://www.breakpoint.org/comment...
he findings of science are not allowed to interfere with these radical teachings. If new research proves the dangers of the behaviors they advocate, the so-called “sexperts” simply ignore it. For instance, sex educators urge kids to avoid pregnancy by engaging in oral sex. But two years ago, cancer specialists found that oral cancers were on the rise among young adults, who used to be at very low risk if they did not smoke or drink. If kids interact with five or more partners, they increase their risk “a whopping 250 percent.” And yet sex educators, Grossman writes, portray this activity as safe and normal. What’s the result of this teaching? One in four American girls now has a sexually transmitted disease.
- Melanie Reed
from Bookmarklet
Hundreds of Facebook groups hijacked | Webware - CNET - http://news.cnet.com/8301-17...
Facebook groups are under attack. But the attackers say they come in peace and insist they want only to highlight a flaw in the way Facebook handles group administration.
- Melanie Reed
from Bookmarklet
Hacking into something that does not belong to you and disrupts the business of others is NOT coming in peace. You find something wrong: you report it to those in charge. End of story. Who did not teach this to them when growing up?
- Melanie Reed
Unfollowing someone on Twitter is the most underhanded, cowardly way of signaling the end of a friendship. That's what email's for.
Rob Michael (Atmos Trio), MG Siegler and Roberto Bonini liked this
Some times I unfollow because I'm following them elsewhere already. Also, accidents happen occasionally - my service offers auto-unfollow based on certain keywords in DMs that individuals set on their own. Hopefully you're whitelisted by that individual, but occasionally accidents do happen. :-) If they're a friend, might be worth approaching them to find out why they unfollowed?
- Jesse Stay
Unfollowing == ending a friendship? Must be a new age definition of friendship I guess.
- Brian Sullivan
There needs to be a way to allow certain people to DM you without following them. I'd like to put all my friends into lists, for example, and read them that way instead of having them in my main Twitter feed (aka followed).
- Otto
Otto, it's called e-mail :-)
- Jesse Stay
Same as Jesse, If I unfollow them it is usually because I am seeing them twice.
- Holden Page
What about changing facebook friendship status??
- Roberto Bonini
My teenage daughter disagrees--she says the worst is to be removed as "Besty" from her Top 8...I guess it's kinda the same...
- Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)
Maybe we make too many decisions on what is convenient for us without thinking about the effect it will have on others.
- Melanie Reed
Still getting these out of my system #unseenprequels 1999: A Space Iliad
Melanie Reed, John (a.k.a. dendroica), Louis Simoneau and 2 other people liked this
Oh, oh, me too just now. "The Power of Zero"
- Micah Wittman
Victor, very witty. I'll share this with my Eng dept colleague :)
- Melanie Reed
YouTube - Gas Pump Explosion Caused by Static Electricity - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
  |
Mahmood Padura liked this
Just watched this on TV. Please make sure you discharge yourself on dry days by touching your car before you handle the pump or walk away from the pump and come back to finish fueling.
- Melanie Reed
from Bookmarklet
he was so terrified that screwed it.
- Mahmood Padura
Well I'm off to go collect money for that exiled Nigerian princess who emailed me so she can return home & claim her rightful throne
Jeff P. Henderson, i ♥ derrick #bellymeme, Helen Sventitsky and 3 other people liked this
Good for you!
- Louis Gray
Let me know how that works out for you…
- Glen Campbell
roflol Yes, I was debating on that one, too. ;)
- Melanie Reed
I think it might be a scam...but anyways, I got this tweet about a hot stock tip regarding time travel & so I invested all my money in that
- sofarsoShawn
Mysticism keeps men sane. As long as you have mystery you have health; when you destroy mystery you create morbidity. The ordinary man has always been sane because the ordinary man has always been a mystic. He has permitted the twilight. He has always had one foot in earth and the other in fairyland. He has always left himself free to doubt his...
...gods; but (unlike the agnostic of to-day) free also to believe in them. He has always cared more for truth than for consistency. If he saw two truths that seemed to contradict each other, he would take the two truths and the contradiction along with them. [...] The whole secret of mysticism is this: that man can understand everything by the help of what he does not understand. - G. K. Chesterton
- Melanie Reed
Out of the Heart Come Fruits - http://us1.campaign-archive.com/...
 |
After five years of nurturing my banana tree, it has finally produced a ‘bud’. Before it bears fruit, a ‘heart’ comes out on top of the tree. Once the heart matures, it opens up and the fruits come out of it. Banana Tree Matthew 15:19, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.” Luke 6:44, “Each tree is recognized by its own fruit.”
- Melanie Reed
from Bookmarklet
You think abortion is wrong? Don’t have one. I think killing people is wrong, so I’m not in the army. My tax dollars still go to fund it, though (in fact about 21 cents of each of my tax dollars). My tax dollars also go to keep prisoners on death row even though I think the death penalty is morally wrong. My tax dollars fund Guantanamo and Bagram,... - http://silas216.tumblr.com/post...
Jimminy, Bindu Reddy, Kevin Pedraja and 39 other people liked this
I would like to present an argument against your case, but I can't find any! *highfive*
- Rene Wirtz
There is a divergence of opinions upon whether certain activities are "victimless" or not. In each of the examples cited above, there are people who are passionately opposed to the activity in question, and who use a variety of means - legislation, protest, criminal - to make sure that abortion or the death penalty or Guantanamo Bay don't get funded by governments.
- John E. Bredehoft
This is a specious argument, if only because capital punishment and military expenditures are both subject to democratic process whereas abortion was made legal by a court decision. The bigger issue is that abortions will skyrocket if the cost to the recipient goes down.
- Rob Sterling
Remind me again, Rob: who elects the people who select the Supreme Court justices?
- Steven Perez
Who gets to vote them out is the issue, Steven.
- Rob Sterling
Nope. The issue is why some things are worth getting worked up over and why some others are overlooked. The word for today, Rob, is "hypocrisy".
- Steven Perez
Seriously, do you realize that abt 40% of African-American pregnancies in the U.S. are aborted, currently? By lowering the price to zero, you're basically supporting black genocide. Free abortion will be to blacks and hispanics what smallpox was to the Incas.
- Rob Sterling
As my algebra teacher used to say, Rob: please show work.
- Steven Perez
I was just thinking, I'd like to see any statistics to support Rob's argument. Also, should we talk about what things were like *before* Roe v. Wade for women who needed an abortion? In any case, the argument that "abortion was made legal by *a* court decision" and is therefore not debatable in the same way that the other issues which are "subject to democratic process" are, should mean that any other decisions of the Supreme Court are equally invalid.
- Bren, Photophobe
Steven I was looking at your logic and went one step previous: Don't want to get pregnant? (includes men in that responsibility), don't have sex. (This would be the counter argument). I can find no argument that it is a need (no death results from abstaining). Nor can I find a good argument that it is a "right".
- Melanie Reed
So we can start with Miranda rights. Those can go. What should be next, Rob?
- Bren, Photophobe
Don't forget desegregation, Bren. That was so 1950s.
- Steven Perez
Melanie: the above is a quote from here: http://globalcomment.com/2009...
- Steven Perez
OK, so here's the CDC numbers: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr... In 2000, 503 pregnancies were aborted compared to 1000 live births among African-American women. That is 33%; I've seen higher numbers but don't recall where. I hope I don't have to explain demand elasticity - which is that when you lower a price for something, demand goes up.
- Rob Sterling
@Bren - Miranda is a criminal law process issue, right? Of course that can be settled by the courts. But while abortion is obviously an issue for the legislature, the left took it to the courts when it didn't get the outcome it wanted. Right or wrong, that's not democracy.
- Rob Sterling
Steven, thanks. Yeah, I saw. Now to counter her argument: "I am not a bargaining chip" I'm following her all the way up to and including the right to say "no" when I don't agree to have sex. It is my body. But should I become pregnant, I am then sharing my body with someone who from a biological standpoint has no choice but to trust me. I wonder if this life form (which if we found it...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Rob: where have I heard that argument before? Oh, yeah, now I remember: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv...
- Steven Perez
Curses, you've discovered my secret identity! LOL. So? You have a point? I'd rather be on the same page as Limbaugh than that lunatic Olbermann.
- Rob Sterling
Yes. (1) In your hypothesis, why does the ability to have access to abortions not affect white people's population numbers as much they will apparently non-white people? (2) Rush Limbaugh? Seriously? That alone should invalidate your hypothesis, but I'll give you a shot to try and come up with an answer for the first.
- Steven Perez
We teach children in "Horton Hears a Who" : "That a person's a person...no matter how small". No one in the story can hear the whos ...except Horton. He makes it a point to tell whoville to have everybody to yell as loud as they can so they will be heard. What happens when science makes the leap forward past ultrasounds to discover a way the fetus has been communicating to us all along...we just couldn't "hear" it? What then?
- Melanie Reed
*wth? white people are advocating for black births now? that's a switch.*
- tiffany
Oh, and, to completely derail the conversation: (3) why does every conservative feel the need to bring up Olbermann when I catch them using Limbaugh's talking points? Do you even imagine that there is some sort of equivalence there? Cuz there really isn't.
- Steven Perez
Rob: Steven pointed out desegregation as another issue that the courts had to over-rule the majority on, were they wrong there? How about the various voting writes acts that the Supreme Court had to uphold?
- Bren, Photophobe
1) I expect it will affect white people similarly. But if it doubles the white numbers they'll still be lower than the black numbers are now. 2) So you ignore ideas that come from people you generally don't agree with? I'm sure that will lead to a happy and successful life for you.
- Rob Sterling
I'm not a fan of Rob's politics (as far as I can divine them), but the math seems to back him up. In 2004 there were 584,000 "Non-Hispanic Black" births: http://bit.ly/1r9NSz (pdf). In 2004 there were 453,000 abortions performed for black women: http://bit.ly/iwjk1 (pdf). Again, my point is not to support any particular position, just that these numbers are pretty easy to find.
- Steve is older than ever
@Bren - You're talking about interpretations of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, which have been interepreted differently by the Court during different eras. Those three amendments passed through the usual process in the two decades after the Civil War.
- Rob Sterling
so rob, what you're saying is a woman can't afford to have an abortion but she can afford to give birth?
- tiffany
(1) So you're guessing. OK. How about we try and see if your hypothesis holds water? (2) Wow. So far off the mark. I have no problem with opposing viewpoints. But I have a serious problem with anyone using anything that racist gasbag has to say. If Limbaugh told me that the sun was shining, I would want independent confirmation from eight other people, just to make sure. THAT is what I think of Captain Oxycontin's vaunted opinion.
- Steven Perez
@tiffany Nope. I'm saying that if you make abortion really cheap, more people will do it.
- Rob Sterling
@Steven - So instead of just ignoring ideas from people you disagree with, you demonize and hate those people and THEN ignore them. Got it.
- Rob Sterling
@Steve - My politics are immaterial. I'm just pointing out the math. Thanks for agreeing with the math.
- Rob Sterling
Reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit in school, was it, Rob? If you want to pretend that Rush Limbaugh, of all people, actually gives a damn about black people, other than owning them, then good luck with that reality. Otherwise, the subject here is about why people freak out about abortion and why they don't freak out equally as much about torture or war or the death penalty.
- Steven Perez
and the result of not having an abortion is...? if fewer women have abortions, more children will be born, yes? think about the actual real world implications for a moment and you will (i hope) see how silly the argument against funding abortions really is.
- tiffany
Rob: 3. State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. -- From the original opinion in the Roe v. Wade case.
- Bren, Photophobe
Your politics are imma-what? First time I've heard THAT specious line of reasoning.
- Steven Perez
If it wasn't for the time, Rob, I would get the numbers from European countries where abortion is legal. Those numbers would show a significant drop in before and after legalization. Your argument that just because it may be cheaper it's gonna happen more is completely ridiculous.
- Rene Wirtz
I don't "agree" with facts, Rob. I'm a librarian, and I know it's pretty easy to get those numbers. I'm actually fine with anyone who wants an abortion getting one. I'm not sure why you should feel comfortable saying that poor black women should be forced to carry on the race or some such shit.
- Steve is older than ever
tiffany, I think in that argument you will also need to examine the growing statistics of infertility
- Melanie Reed
@Rene - If abortions cost a million dollars each, would there be fewer of them?
- Rob Sterling
Rob: if cheese cost $1000000 a pound, we'd stop eating cheese, too. That doesn't mean that if cheese was free, all we would eat is cheese.
- Bren, Photophobe
@Rob: that one I would believe. But guess what would skyrocket, and similarly now, if abortion is made illegal?
- Rene Wirtz
@Steve - I am also fine with anyone who wants an abortion being able to get one. I am not fine with having to pay for them. I am even less fine with the potentially destabilizing effects of "free" abortions.
- Rob Sterling
And, just like when it was illegal to have an abortion, making or keeping it artificially expensive just creates a black market. Prohibition does not, generally, work. It didn't work with alcohol, it's not working with drugs, and it didn't and will not work with abortion.
- Bren, Photophobe
Further, since you seem concerned about saving lives, I assume you would also be in favor of criminalizing gun possession, right Rob?
- Bren, Photophobe
+++++Bren
- Anika
And eliminating the death penalty.
- Bren, Photophobe
Also, there is one other factor that is tangential, generally a family takes care of their older members. The only way older members get taken care of as they age and become infirm is either the state or their own resources amassed over their working life. The argument overlooked and one approaching us is the dual circumstance of an increasing unmarried single female population growing older with limited to no savings and now because of divorce and the fallen economy no money and abortion, no family
- Melanie Reed
@Rob: rocking the wrong boat, my friend. I know, for a fact, that it really does not have a destabilizing effect, The exact opposite, actually. And that's why in almost all European countries, even in the very catholic ones, abortion is legal.
- Rene Wirtz
@Rene - If you accept that fewer abortions would occur if the price went up, then you are admitting that abortion demand has price elasticity. So the argument isn't whether there will be more abortions, it's how many more will occur. My guess is that dropping the price from several hundred dollars to something less than $50 will cause a huge surge - maybe a doubling.
- Rob Sterling
And providing a universal, public option for health care that offers preventative care for all Americans, and does not preclude people with "pre-existing conditions" from obtaining medical service, right?
- Bren, Photophobe
rob: you're wrong. "A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it." http://www.nytimes.com/2007...
- tiffany
Rene: maybe this is what you were looking for: "Conclusions: Both developed and developing countries can have low abortion rates. Most countries, however, have moderate to high abortion rates, reflecting lower prevalence and effectiveness of contraceptive use. Stringent legal restrictions do not guarantee a low abortion rate." http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs...
- Steven Perez
@Rob: your logic is simply unfounded. It has been proven that even offering free abortions does not increase the number of abortions.
- Rene Wirtz
Rob: you hit the nail on the head, when you said "my guess..." edit: because you have no data to support such a surge
- Bren, Photophobe
@Rene - You are aware that most of Europe has a negative birthrate, right? That is extremely destabilizing.
- Rob Sterling
@Rene It has been proven? LOL. Show me those numbers, please.
- Rob Sterling
Rob: precisely. Se my comment above
- Melanie Reed
@Bren - No one ever has data to prove what is GOING to happen in a society. Thank you for making such a conservative point.
- Rob Sterling
@Rob: but that has absolutely zero to do with abortion. That has to do with the fact that, just like in the US, the trend is to start (too) late with having children.
- Rene Wirtz
So you are guessing, then, Rob. Again, I would love to see how you went from "high incidences of non-white abortions" to " wiping out the black people", especially since most women in this country live in a county without basic reproductive services. http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009...
- Steven Perez
melanie, women who have abortions don't have fewer children. they just have them later. and rob, you do realize that the cost of raising a child is precisely why europe has a negative birth rate. and you *ALSO* realize that the u.s. would have a negative birthrate but for immigration, right?
- tiffany
Show me a precedent for your assertion, though, Rob
- Bren, Photophobe
whether a woman aborts a pregnancy is a decision between her and her doctor. if we deny funding for one option, then it has the effect of forcing someone into the other
- Mike Chelen
Because I could say "my guess is that if you made abortion free, no one would ever have one again because they would not trust in the value of the service being provided."
- Bren, Photophobe
Tiffany, not all of them. Too many of them find they are unable. If you are younger at this point it is easy to assume you have control of the future. You and I and they don't.
- Melanie Reed
@Rene - I can't respond to anything else you write until you show me the proof. You're throwing out too many assertions without giving any foundation.
- Rob Sterling
And I wasn't making a conservative point, Rob, I was asking you to provide some basis for your assertion that lowering abortion cost would increase the number of abortions.
- Bren, Photophobe
@tiffany - Yes, but the U.S. is closer to balanced than most of Europe. I want the U.S. birth rate to go back into the positive range; cheap or free abortions would make that harder.
- Rob Sterling
Why is it so important to you that we have more kids than anyone else, Rob?
- Steven Perez
@Bren - You want a precedent for thinking that demand is elastic by price? Or specifically that cutting the price of a thing by 80% or more can at least double demand?
- Rob Sterling
Yoo hoo, Rob! Over here! Yeah, me, the guy throwing facts your way! *waves arms*
- Steven Perez
I'd like a precedent for Abortion, specifically, Rob. That's what we are talking about, right? it's not exactly like other consumer products.
- Bren, Photophobe
@Steven - You're linking articles, not throwing facts.
- Rob Sterling
Rob: are you saying that his sources are not valid?
- Bren, Photophobe
No, I'm providing you with numbers, Rob, which are then attached to articles which support their theories, Rob. Sorry if that is too much for you to handle. I'll go back to hating on Limbaugh if you want.
- Steven Perez
@Bren - Here's an article on price elasticity for medical services. Please remember that abortion is an elective procedure: http://stanford.wellsphere.com/healthc...
- Rob Sterling
Bren it would be the same economic model that is studied and excepted from economists for lowering smoking rates by raising the price
- Melanie Reed
@Bren - I'm saying that he should give an argument and then link his source. Not just hurl long articles at me here, while I'm arguing with half-a-dozen people.
- Rob Sterling
And doing a bang-up job, except that you haven't actually responded to anything I've asked of you ;)
- Bren, Photophobe
Says the guy who threw a dozen tables at me and then guessed at what might happen. I provided reasoned arguments that weren't hard to follow, Rob. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
- Steven Perez
I think I've responded to everything you've asked. You just didn't like the answers.
- Rob Sterling
OK, Rob, in spite of me getting sleep. In the US 4 out of 20 pregnancies end in abortion (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs...), in Holland and Belgium this number is 11 out of a 100 (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki..., true source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs...). The difference: abortion is legal in Belgium and Holland and still only quasi-legal in the US.
- Rene Wirtz
@Steven - You ASKED for the work. I gave you the number and then linked the tables. Don't be a child.
- Rob Sterling
And I repeat: Why is it so important to you that we have more kids than anyone else, Rob?
- Steven Perez
i still want to understand the logic of forcing a woman who wants an abortion but can't afford one to have to pay to give birth and presumably raise a child.
- tiffany
Melanie: that is based on the principal that smoking is harmful in all cases, while the fact is that in some situations abortion is the best choice
- Mike Chelen
@Steven - I don't care about how many kids other countries have.
- Rob Sterling
No, you provided me with raw data and then hazarded guesses on what MIGHT happen. Not nearly the same thing, Rob.
- Steven Perez
You have? I must have missed where you refuted that Roe v. Wade was just as Constitutionally based as all of the other issues I mentioned, or when you told me your stance on the death penalty, gun criminalization, and universal health care, since you are so concerned with saving lives...
- Bren, Photophobe
@tiffany - FORCING? The only people potentially subject to force are those of us who don't want to be part of socialized medicine.
- Rob Sterling
Or when you provided data to support your assertion that lower abortion costs would lead to higher abortion rates...
- Bren, Photophobe
Mike it isn't for the baby, nor the future of that society since you and I do not know the contribution that child could have made, nor for the woman who doesn't know what her future will bring
- Melanie Reed
@Steven - You're just not real good at this, are you? I gave you 503 of 1000 live births. A precise number, and then linked the table.
- Rob Sterling
And then leapt to an unfounded conclusion, based on nothing you could point to other than a poorly chosen economic model, Rob.
- Steven Perez
from IM
@Bren - Since it hasn't happened yet, I can't show data to indicate that it will. Since nearly everything in the world has demand elasticity by price, I would think the burden to show why it WON'T effect abortion is really to be made by you.
- Rob Sterling
I guess I'm asking too much for lefties to understand demand curves. If you understood supply and demand, your worldviews wouldn't be what it is.
- Rob Sterling
Rob: denying funding for a medical treatment influences the decision more strongly for anyone that unable to afford the expense
- Mike Chelen
Besides you are banking on the fact that you will be fertile later on: that is not always the case. Aside from the moral argument, you are playing with futures, both individual and community, that you do not have any information in which to make an informed decision.
- Melanie Reed
And, Rob, I ask you to understand that you, as a man, do not have the authority to decide on what a woman is allowed or not allowed to do, because that's really what it comes down to.
- Rene Wirtz
Clearly there are people who have very low incomes that will find legal abortion to be more difficult to obtain if they have to pay the full price out of pocket. All the more reason why the procedure should be covered by insurance. The last thing the world needs is more unwanted children of parents with low incomes.
- Jason Wehmhoener
I see, Rob. The problem isn't your lack of a coherent theory. It's my politics and intelligence that's the problem.
- Steven Perez
@Rene - What? I am not deciding what anybody can do. You are.
- Rob Sterling
So there is no precedent, even in countries where abortions are free and widely available for abortion rates rising dramatically?
- Bren, Photophobe
@Steven - I'm glad you've come to accept that.
- Rob Sterling
No, I'd like to give women the option of a choice. I would never take that choice away, or worse, make it illegal. And how do I decide what you do?
- Rene Wirtz
Yeah, must be that brown pigmentation that does me in, Rob.
- Steven Perez
Steven: I didn't see Rob use race as a qualifier, I think it is unfair to assume that.
- Bren, Photophobe
Melanie: isn't a child better off if they are born to a parent capable of raising them?
- Mike Chelen
@Steven - I don't even know what race you are. But thanks for going as low as you can go, in less than hour. That's character, right there.
- Rob Sterling
I agree, Bren. Completely unfounded. Like his entire argument. I leapt to an erroneous conclusion based on an inherent bias towards people on his side of the aisle. See how easy that was? And I didn't even need a link.
- Steven Perez
Melanie: the question of health risk regarding future pregnancy is exactly the sort of issue that should be carefully discussed by a woman and her doctor. since the choice effects the woman's future so strongly, isn't it unfair to try and make that decision for her?
- Mike Chelen
@Bren - I am researching that right now. But increased demand for services once prices drop is a major problem for socialized medicine systems in Europe. It's why things that are expensive but quick here, like MRIs, have such long wait lists in some other countries.
- Rob Sterling
Don't sweat it, Rob. You know how we Mexicans can get about that kind of thing. So sensitive all the time.
- Steven Perez
Mike, are you saying, given the assumed awful life you have had (I am assuming for arguments sake) that if you had been given the choice (which these children are not being given) that you would have said "no, I don't want to be born. Please abort me. I don't like the life I'm going to get."? Joy does not arise from the amount of money you have. The triumph of life has been seen through all circumstances.
- Melanie Reed
Steven: I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I may not agree with Rob's politics, or his interpretation of the constitution, or his lack of empathy for the needs of people outside of his immediate social strata, but I would not immediately assume that he is either a bad person, or a racist.
- Bren, Photophobe
@Rob: I'm interested in your research for that.
- Rene Wirtz
Rob: changing the price actually affects the supply curve, not the demand curve (in classical economics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Mike Chelen
Given that Rob's whole argument can be best summed up as some sort of "white man's burden" to save the black race in the name of economics, Bren, I'm not sure I can give him equal latitude.
- Steven Perez
This thread makes me want to have like fifteen abortions.
- Dragon Goldmaple
Steven: funny thing is there are other measures such as use of prophylactics that we could probably all agree on, which would actually affect the demand curve
- Mike Chelen
@Bren - This is anecdotal but doesn't include enough numbers to be too useful: http://www.euthanasia.com/vietnam...
- Rob Sterling
Fair enough, Steven. I am not here to tell you what to think or not think, but the way I read his argument was more along the lines of: "those who are in favor of cheap abortions are in favor, de facto, of decimation of brown people of all sorts in the US."
- Bren, Photophobe
@Rob: I understand that some elective medical procedures follow the rules of economic supply/demand curves, but I think it's unreasonable to assume that abortion will follow the same pattern: yes, if MRIs are cheap and available, lots of people will use them, they're a diagnostic tool. Same goes for other preventative, diagnostic, or cosmetic procedures. But abortion is a whole...
more...
- Louis Simoneau
Mike, true, health classes in high school should be demonstrating the proper usage of condoms. Heck, I'd go so far as to say health classes should be distributing condoms.
- Jason Wehmhoener
@Mike - Changes in price affect both supply and demand. At a higher price, more people are willing to supply it, fewer to buy it. And vice-versa as prices decline.
- Rob Sterling
Rob: that article about Viet Nam describes a situation that is significantly different: the government of Viet Nam is actively *encouraging* abortion as a birth control method, not just subsidizing the price.
- Bren, Photophobe
Mike, years ago this wasn't even an issue. If you are familiar with ancient cultures the birth of a child was not seen as the burden as it is today (and we have more money than they did and more medical options for comfort and traumatic care. You can't survive everything and t one point we are all going to die. But we who are here have at least been given our chance. I for one am not...
more...
- Melanie Reed
melanie: a woman is fertile for about 25 years. having an abortion at 15, 17 or 25 does not mean she can't have a child at 26, or 30. fertility doesn't MARKEDLY drop off (and by "markedly," i mean where miscarriage is more likely) until about 40. my own mother had me at 32. this fertility argument is really a non issue.
- tiffany
Fair enough, Bren. I happen to think that black people are smart enough not to abort themselves out of existence.
- Steven Perez
@Bren - Subsidizing a thing, i.e. making it cheaper, is encouragement. When the government subsidizes a thing, we get more of it. That is the usual purpose of subsidies.
- Rob Sterling
I agree, Steven.
- Bren, Photophobe
*dead* seriously melanie? abortion dates back to ancient roman times http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- tiffany
DO ANYBODY NO WHY WIMMEN HATES BABBYS
- Dragon Goldmaple
Tiffany, I am glad for your mother It does not happen that way for everyone. I am just asking you to realize that a woman cannot always count on finding a husband nor in getting pregnant by any other means. It is not a non-issue.
- Melanie Reed
Rob: that is not what I meant, and you know it. The level of intellectual dishonesty in your arguments makes it very hard to take your points seriously. The same is true, I have found, generally among conservatives.
- Bren, Photophobe
"If you are familiar with ancient cultures the birth of a child was not seen as the burden as it is today" Anyone who's read Greek or Roman myths can start laughing *looks at stopwatch* right. now.
- Spidra Webster
I have also noticed that sort of intellectual dishonesty among people on the left, I should say.
- Bren, Photophobe
Yes, Tiffany I know abortion dates back to Roman times. Do you know what happened to th Roman empire?
- Melanie Reed
Rob: by moving the supply and demand curves the point of intersection changes, but not the other way around
- Mike Chelen
@Bren - I am being extremely straightforward. My whole argument is based entirely on a centuries-old, proven reliable economic theory. You don't want to accept it because it conflicts with what you WANT to be true.
- Rob Sterling
It is really hard for me to comprehend this emotion that there is some reason to see declining birth rates as threatening. I see population pressure creating public health and environmental issues worldwide, including the United States. I just don't get it.
- Jason Wehmhoener
Melanie please describe in detail what happened to Rome.
- Dragon Goldmaple
Louis: MRI cost influences the supply curve, the overall rate would still depend on the demand curve
- Mike Chelen
@Mike - No, the price of intersection is just one snapshot. Ex: If t-shirts are going for $50, more people will want to get in the t-shirt business than if they're going for $5.
- Rob Sterling
@Jason - Declining birth rates are a very bad thing. They are destabilizing and create social problems, especially in support of the elderly. They're something to wish on your enemies, and to try to avoid at home.
- Rob Sterling
no. that is not true, Rob. again. that's okay. I can see that we will get nowhere in this discussion, because you want to treat abortion as though it were the same as any other commodity, and that price is the primary factor keeping the rate of abortion where it is, or that lowering the price will somehow raise the abortion rate (which you can not show one single precedent for).
- Bren, Photophobe
For those of you wondering, here's the original quote: ""You think abortion is wrong? Don’t have one. I think killing people is wrong, so I’m not in the army. My tax dollars still go to fund it, though (in fact about 21 cents of each of my tax dollars). My tax dollars also go to keep prisoners on death row even though I think the death penalty is morally wrong. My tax dollars fund...
more...
- Steven Perez
and you want to use a "centuries old, proven economic model" to advance *your* moral code.
- Bren, Photophobe
@Rob, unwanted children also create significant social problems. These issues aren't well solved by blanket statements. We need the right to choose so that appropriate choices can be made for unique situations.
- Jason Wehmhoener
@Bren - I just want my country to avoid the social mistakes other countries have made.
- Rob Sterling
where is the evidence of these social mistakes, Rob? edit: still, I wait for anything resembling a precedent for the astronomic rise in abortion you are foretelling...
- Bren, Photophobe
so history books are wrong and abortion was responsible for the fall of the roman empire? what? and what on earth does a woman not being able to find a husband or get pregnant "some other way" have to do with abortion? seems to me that woman wouldn't need one because pregnancy would not be an issue for her. *confused*
- tiffany
BREN HAVE YOU ALREADY FORGOTTEN ABOUT ROME???
- Dragon Goldmaple
@Jason - Women who don't want children but get pregnant should abort them or put them up for adoption.
- Rob Sterling
And from there, we ended up talking about why our country would be economically destroyed if the black people, who some believe are collectively dumber than a bag of hammers, had ready access to free abortions and accidentally aborted themselves into oblivion. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out.
- Steven Perez
I think he's afraid of being unwanted and uncared for in old age. Sadly, forcing women to have children isn't likely to solve that problem.
- Jason Wehmhoener
@Rob, ok, so can the abortion be covered by insurance then?
- Jason Wehmhoener
Does everyone here know about Margaret Sanger? Just asking.
- Rob Sterling
i am going to hide this thread because some folks have just stopped making sense. and no, that's not because it's past my bed time. it's you. EDIT: margaret sanger? *facepalm* would it help you to know that african women also seek abortions. seeking abortions is a part of the human condition.
- tiffany
tiffany: <3
- Bren, Photophobe
@Jason - If an insurance company wants to offer that, sure. I don't run an insurance company.
- Rob Sterling
On a separate note: I love how some folks don't think that this country isn't smart enough to take someone else's good ideas (like democracy, fer instance) and apply it to our own situation. We can't have socialized medicine because it wouldn't work? So adapt it to fit. That's what we do. That's how this country was made great - we took everyone else's good ideas and made them work. Apparently, though, we're not that smart anymore. Shame, really.
- Steven Perez
I deleted that last comment, because it was reductive in the extreme, and would only serve to take us backward in the conversation.
- Bren, Photophobe
@Bren - No, I would not be running an insurance company. And I would no longer have a choice about where I buy my insurance and what plan I purchase.
- Rob Sterling
huh?
- Jason Wehmhoener
really? I haven't seen that plan, Rob... could you link to it?
- Bren, Photophobe
Steven: with all this, how do you find time to NaNo your WriMo?
- T. Brent, technopeasant
The only HCR bills I have seen do nothing to eliminate private insurance.
- Bren, Photophobe
I doubt you've seen any plan. Have the Democrats finally got around to putting the bill online?
- Rob Sterling
@Rob, really? You wouldn't have a choice of insurance? Citation, please.
- vicster
You mean, this one, Rob? http://docs.house.gov/rules...
- Steven Perez
phew, ok, time for me to punch out on this idiocy.
- Jason Wehmhoener
"Wow, Steven, how'd you find that?" "Well, kids, there's this thing called Google ..."
- Steven Perez
I think he's waiting for Rush to let him know it's online.
- Dragon Goldmaple
Are you kidding, Rob? I posted this http://ff.im/6VIfE , on August 20.
- Bren, Photophobe
@Bren - I'm not going to get into a larger discussion about socialized medicine and what may or may not come out of the conference committee. All I'm interested in here is the original free abortion discussion and social consequences.
- Rob Sterling
Sen. Max Baucus, for example, six weeks ago: http://www.reddit.com/r...
- Rob Sterling
Rob, that's the issue, you read this and all you saw was that it was about abortion. Did you even keep reading once you got past the word abortion?
- Dragon Goldmaple
Anyway, this is silly. If abortion gets cheaper, more people will want them. I thought that would be self-evident to everyone, but I guess not. Good night.
- Rob Sterling
And yet, Rob, two people in this thread found it quickly.
- Steven Perez
Rob: the notion that if abortions get cheaper more people will want them is just intellectually lazy and dishonest. I'm done, with this conversation.
- Bren, Photophobe
No one chooses to go get abortions like they are some kind of consumer good. That's why you fail.
- Dragon Goldmaple
@Bren, you just took the words right out of my keyboard!
- vicster
What Bren said.
- Steven Perez
T. Brent: uh oh, I knew I forgot something. o_O
- Steven Perez
First they screamed about having to pay for the education, feeding and housing of other people's children. Now they're screaming about the possibility of paying a LOT LESS to avoid paying for the education, feeding and housing of other people's children. It really doesn't make any sense to me.
- MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Me, neither. And I was here for all of it.
- Steven Perez
That was my point from the beginning, Dragon. Abortions are not subject to the same market forces as, say, tee shirts. The argument that lowering the price would boost demand is just not supportable. The counterargument, that raising the price astronomically would lower the rate of abortion is fine, but not relevant. What Rob was saying is there, essentially "a:b :: b:a" which is not always true.
- Bren, Photophobe
Dear internet people, arguing about abortion is completely pointless.
- Internet's Tad
In any case, I would guess that Rob is morally opposed to abortion, and sees readily available reproductive health services as a social ill. Instead of being honest and saying that, he tried to use economics to make his case, but was unable to really do so. Tad: in the current environment, there is actually a point to debating this, though normally I would agree with you.
- Bren, Photophobe
Dear Tad: do I tell you how to have fun on a Sunday night? :D
- Steven Perez
Someone, perhaps not Rob, also tried to instill fear (oh noes, the brown people will disappear!) instead of arguing morality. Wait, that's not fair. Perhaps frightening people wasn't intended.
- MiniMage, sheeple of FF
-- depends what abortion - that one in case of rape, mother's life in danger or incest should be mandatory by law. .. that other one - 'oops we do not want family now' .. i would leave it legal and available, but discourage it
- Petr Buben
Melanie: that only considers two possible outcomes, when there are many different kinds of situations. many children are thankfully born healthy, yet in other case there can be significant and dangerous medical issues
- Mike Chelen
Rob: the prices at which vendors might sell a good is the supply curve, and the price elasticity of supply is its overall slope
- Mike Chelen
*skipping a whole bunch of comments* Dear Rob, Don't worry about black genocide. Lots of black people will keep pumping out the babies, promise. I bet a few of them will even end up having their entire existence paid for by the government (yay poverty!). Hope you're ready to pay for those babies you insist people have.
- EricaJoy
The only answer you will get is that your wrong. They are right. Thats the end of the subject in their mind. Thank you for reading.
- CW™
I don't think it's wrong, but I don't think that killing people is still right. People should think before they bring kids to this world. Sometimes it's better not to bring a child to this cold and crazy world as there is already so many suffering from bad homes, and many doesn't even have no food. If we would take care of them first it would be great. All depends on everything. There...
more...
- Nia
What's amazing to me right now about this whole abortion debate are the people who are screaming the loudest about not wanting the government to have any say in their healthcare are screaming just as loudly for the government to have a say in women's choices in healthcare. (Will be kicking myself after I have more coffee for even commenting.)
- Trish R
Frivolous abortions are wrong, just like frivolous litigation. Gender equality in heath care, however, is a must. To deny women the same access to health care is barbaric and wrong. And a big part of women's health care is preventive health care including birth control options.
- Rene Wirtz
Tiffany (though I have a feeling you won't see this) - a woman's fertility starts to markedly decline after age 35. There are also more risks during pregnancy and birth after that age. Also the assumption that all healthy women are fertile is very wrong. Then you have subfertility, secondary infertility... Remember too that there is a difference between infertile and sterile. I am infertile and I have a son.
- Mellissa Jane
+++++++++ Trish.
- Alix Whitmire
Sadness: It's gotten to where I almost always copy my post or comment to the clipboard because as often as not, FriendFeed coughs up an 'Oops' and I have to refresh and try again. Got tired of constantly retyping things so now instead of just hitting enter, I've gotten into the habit of hitting ⌘-A ⌘-C and THEN trying to post or comment.
SAM, Jon, the Beartato of FF, Roberto Bonini and 16 other people liked this
Wish I didn't have to do this.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Yes, huge problem today for me too.
- Micah Wittman
from iPhone
I feel like I do this all the time everywhere. I'm terrified something wont go through.
- Clark Baumgartner 蔵明 馬武刀
Thought I was the only one....
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Oops I crapped my pants. Learn More.
- Josh Haley
happens to me all the time
- mjc
I have had this happen a number of times
- Melanie Reed
I just realized that it never happens to me when I'm using a third-party client; it only happens in the web interface.
- Akiva Moskovitz
from BuddyFeed
Clients may try-catch and retry. Just a guess though.
- Micah Wittman
from iPhone
maybe try lazarus form recovery addon? https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US...
- Mike Chelen
These things are really the reason I am not posting new stuff to FF anymore. Unfortunately I have resorted to pushing out through twitter.
- Travis Koger
Mike, I don't use Firefox.
- Akiva Moskovitz
"Waaah, waaah. My FriendFeed is broke sometimes."
- Cristo
Comfort me, my dear Cristo. Hold me in this: my darkest hour.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Um, sure dude. Where do you want me to hold you?
- Cristo
In our usual place: Stall #3.
- Akiva Moskovitz
tap your foot!
- mjc
Cristo and I can't spare a square. We haven't a square to spare.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I just want to warn you, I have a wide stance.
- Cristo
They thought " this is for the best". And so they made each decision, each one, according to what was pleasing in their own eyes. For some few years, many went on and nothing seemed amiss except for the few that for one reason or another seemed to have lost all ability to conceive. No one paid them any notice at first. Bad luck. Bad timing.....
But then those small rates of infertility that no one had taken notice of at first began climbing. They had everything they wanted. No one was too poor to have children...but the fact was, no one was able to conceive. And no one really understood why. They never foresaw such a thing happening. Afterall, why should it?
- Melanie Reed
Indeed, many of them never foresaw the future about many things. The pandemic of that particular preceding decade sadly took so many of their young...the ones they had decided would live. So many unaccountable, uncontrollable things happened. It rather boggled the mind.
- Melanie Reed
Dwarf Brazilian Bananas; or Reason #83 why I need a monkey. - http://www.flickr.com/photos...
Alfredo, Kol Tregaskes, Anna Choi and 18 other people liked this
First harvest ever from my banana plant. They should have been cut down 2 weeks ago, but whatever. Lots of very ripe bananas. Now looking for recipes. =)
- Anika
from Bookmarklet
I have a feeling my night has turned into me make a lot of banana bread. :(
- Anika
Oh, duh! Banana chips! Totally gonna make a buttload of those.
- Anika
Oh man. Homegrown bananas! How good those must taste.
- Spidra Webster
I didn't think this one through. I hate bananas and now the kids are acting like bananas are homegrown sin. So we have a ton of them (there's a lot more not shown in this photo) and no one wants it.
- Anika
Banana splits, Bananas foster, banana bread, Banana chips, fried bananas, banana ice cream, banana shakes/smoothies
- Spidra Webster
food bank or shelter?
- tiffany
Bananans! Get in MAH BELLEHH...
- Adrian
The Foothill Chapter of CA Rare Fruit Growers probably has members interested in trading fruit with you, esp for bananas.
- Spidra Webster
I can't give them away since most of them have snapped off exposing the fruit. So, I'm making banana chips and banana bread right now.
- Anika
Holy hell, if I knew bananas could taste this good, I'd not be so anti-banana. The reviews were right, it's is a very creamy and sherbet tasting banana (oh, I don't like sherbet either!). It has a slight "orange" taste. I can definitely see having these in smoothies. Super curious about how the banana bread will turn out now.
- Anika
Adapt this recipe for your banana bread. It will get rid of a lot of them, fast. Leave out the spices and use about 12 bananas if they are normal sized, more if they are smaller. http://momscookbook.blogspot.com/2006... You can also mash them and make frozen fruit pops if you are worried about them going bad.
- April Russo (app103)
Thanks, April. I like banana bread less than I like bananas, so I don't know if I want that much around the house. It will go bad after the novelty wears off.I'm making a loaf tonight to see where that goes. I know Adrian will make smoothies tomorrow. That should (hopefully) use up the ones that have split at the tips. The rest of the bunch is ripening, so I have time.
- Anika
"Reason #83 why I need a monkey" ROFL!
- Tony, Paradox of FF
And you mentioned 'normal' size. The 'normal' sized bananas usually sold in stores are Cavendish. These' bananas are probably about 6 inches long and 10000x sweeter.
- Anika
I love those little bananas
- Shevonne
Tony, I think a monkey would LOVE our backyard, fetch me beer and tuck the kids in. Win-win for the whole family, I say!
- Anika
Anika, funny that I see this today. My boss just got his banana tree to "bud" this year. (his "baby") :) He just sent me the pic and It's going into the eZine I'm doing for our org. I'm looking forward to those fresh bananas after the "heart" forms. He's got 3 of these trees outside our offices.
- Melanie Reed
Good luck to your boss, Melanie.
- Anika
Thanks, Anika. It's exciting.
- Melanie Reed
Kyle Johnson, Anna Haro, T. Brent, technopeasant and 5 other people liked this
We all hit the wall here around 5pm. 7pm is a short-lived second wind time. Then we power through to 8. Sad.
- Anika
where are you at? its ten here... lol
- Marissa
idk, prbly the west coast . . . lol
- Baroness Von Cut-A-Bitch
Marissa, I'm an old man who's already in the bed in the lovely city of Los Angeles!
- Derrick
lol, thats okay, i was ready for bed at five today =P
- Marissa
Hear hear. Son's birthday bash today, so I'm all worn out and licking my laser beam wounds.
- Micah Wittman
i'm trying to write, but my head keeps bobbing.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
I'm studying for the history exam i have on tuesday, and babysitting. but i cant pay enough attention, too tired
- Marissa
I think after the game, I'll read til I pass out, which shouldn't take long. And get off my lawn too, thanks.
- Derrick
I don't think I've been in a state of "not sleepy" for like, 9.5 months now. Blame Audrey.
- Rochelle
Can I blame Audrey, too? (who's Audrey?)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
T. Brent, my babby.
- Rochelle
Well, she needs to get her priorities straight! lol ;)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Her priorities include keeping me up at all hours of the night (and day)!
- Rochelle
10:30pm. Running on fumes and pumpkin latte till 2am and then God takes over and gets me home.
- Melanie Reed
Amazon.com: Out of the Depths (9780825433191): John Newton: Books - http://www.amazon.com/Out-Dep...
"The original and unvarnished account of one of Christianity's most dramatic conversions-the autobiography of John Newton, the author of "Amazing Grace." This is the ultimate full-length "hymn story". The enduring story of a slave-trader turned preacher is a powerful message, as spectacular and compelling today as when it was first written."
- Melanie Reed
from Bookmarklet
Want to learn what happened on those slave ships from one of their former captains? Read this book. And read of the power of God to change the impossible: a man's heart (Luke 1:37)
- Melanie Reed
I have a Google Wave now. soner.gonul [at] googlewave [dot] com. How can I learn use this service? Share your useful information about Google Wave...
Gajamoo, Lee, Crystal Clear and 19 other people liked this
yeah, please share :)
- Rachael Depp
it's something like friendfeed
- میثم
it sure isn't
- Yusuf Önder Us
Three Google Wave Searches Worth Saving - Searches - Lifehacker http://lifehacker.com/5383221...
- Jackie
GO2WEB20 Blog: 11 Wave Tools You May Not Know Exist http://blog.go2web20.net/2009...
- Jackie
This might help you with the basics! http://bit.ly/18d59C
- Praveen Vasudev
Best Google Wave Tips and Tricks http://techie-buzz.com/feature...
- Jackie
Good find Jackie!
- Praveen Vasudev
no comment -.-
- JoeD
Won't be fun until everyone else is on it.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Oreilly has a quality writeup with shortcuts explanations and screenshots: http://oreilly.com/web-dev...
- TrafficBug
GWave = a very confusing solution built to solve no particular problem
- Dave Pook
@Dave I bet there are many tools in your daily life you can't imagine any particular use for you. This doesn't mean it isn't usefull for others. Did you ever tried to send a Math formular over an IM? Colaborating?!
- JoeD
If you have any invites, feel free to share :). (antonyat AT gmail DOT com)
- Antony Jepson
Well, the only one that seems to have a handle on it is Samuel L. Jackson but I couldn't stay long though he apologized for his unseemly language when explaining how to use it. :) Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Melanie Reed
Google Wave to me its just a bit more complicated than Adobe connect. The main issue you want to resolve is remote communication with workmates in a virtual office. Visuals/and audio take care of the mimic but you need a record. So why not just make small visual records of meetings? Not mentally challenging enough for you? Well, then let's throw FF, email, chat, FB, and file sharing all together and see what happens.
- Melanie Reed
Hopefully this site can provide resources to help people get started: I Created a community around #googlewave - searching and rating of public waves, user lists, vids, forums with bot and gadget lists - check it out at http://www.igooglewavers.com and please feel free to contribute to the site and community.
- Justin H. Johnson
*bumps*
- Bicentennial (Franc)
Please wave invite plzz thanks esedereli@gmail.com
- Deniz Özbay
Other tips about Google Wave, shortcuts and searches: http://exde601e.blogspot.com/2009...
- George Moga
The Complete Guide to Google Wave: How to Use Google Wave http://completewaveguide.com/
- LouCypher
Europeans too selfish to have children, says Chief Rabbi - Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news...
midnightgolfer, Melanie Reed and Craig Eddy liked this
"The leader of Britain’s Jewish community claimed the continent’s population is in decline because people care more about shopping than the sacrifice involved in parenthood. He blamed atheist “neo-Darwinians” for Europe’s low birth rate and said religious people of all denominations are more likely to have large families."
- Noah David Simon
from Bookmarklet
"The Chief Rabbi, who entered the House of Lords last week, made his comments in a lecture on religion in the 21st century hosted by Theos, the public theology think-tank, on Wednesday night. Lord Sacks said that faith had survived so far because it could provide answers to mankind’s eternal search for meaning in life - unlike the market, the state, science or philosophy, which underpin...
more...
- Noah David Simon
It's interesting and saddening to watch this grow: the more moral relativists grow, the more the polar opposite grows: fundamental extremists. The question to ask, even on the shallow interpretation, is "why"? It self-describes the need on the inside to have an absolute something or someone to trust. That's not going away. So the next question to ask is why with all the other needs...
more...
- Melanie Reed
My experience of this European trend, while I live in Spain, has been that: 1) The same people who claim they feel "solidarity" with immigrants who are 'out-breeding' them, are also the same ones who express the greatest amount of disdain, if ever I allow my own religious belief, even if only slightly, enter a conversation. 2) Religion is only cultural for the majority of them, and it...
more...
- midnightgolfer
Yes, there is a huge movement of population and I think some are aware and are shutting their eyes to it (and the immediate and growing physical repercussions of gov voice loss, consumer advocate loss, job loss, etc) on the other hand there is a ray of hope in that if the good news is spread, it is spread faster now that the territory has come to us.
- Melanie Reed
#unseenprequels The Penultimate Starfighter
Jen Hodges, Timothy Griffin and Ladybug Heather liked this
Touchstone Archives: My Life with Darwin - http://www.touchstonemag.com/archive...
|
Commonalities in genetic information are supposed to predate that common ancestor. These are graphically illustrated by phylogenetic trees—diagrams that depict the paths and distances of descent in a given group of organisms. Each member of the group in question is connected to the others by branching lines whose length is proportional to the time that has passed—or the number of mutations that have occurred—since they had a common ancestor (Fig. 1). Branch points (“nodes”) in the diagram symbolize a common ancestor of the organisms connected to it. The degree of difference between each member of the group is compared, and used to estimate the time since divergence.
- Melanie Reed
from Bookmarklet
Lonliness is one of the worst feelings in the world, I feel it now, if I could I'd bear all of the worlds lonliness I would, I don't wish it on anyone...
Melanie Reed, The Bohemian Penguin and Derrick liked this
Kyle, I want you to get quiet and listen. That's why this time is here in your life. It is hardest gift you could ever get. But that is where He is: in the silence and lonely times. He is always there: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... And He is the best friend you and I will ever have. Ask Him tonight and what you need He will provide. Things will start to change. You watch.:)
- Melanie Reed
Thanks Melanie
- Kyle Weller
from Android
Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut - Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news...
midnightgolfer liked this
"Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America's Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats."
- Craig Eddy
from Bookmarklet
"He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July."
- Craig Eddy
"But General George Casey, the Army's Chief of Staff, said it was "speculation" that military authorities failed to pick up on warning signs. "I don't want to say that we missed it," he said. Asked if military authorities had missed warning signs Gen Casey, the Army's Chief of Staff, added: "We have to go back and look at ourselves ,and ask ourselves the hard questions. Are we doing the right things? We will learn from this. "
- Melanie Reed
Yes, I agree that we will learn from this: but how long will that take? In 9/11 as in this case, the army and the FBI have admitted that they knew something was wrong...but did nothing. What is that telling us? We keep watering down the requirements of organizations in order to be "fair" but does effective have to be sacrificed to be fair?
- Melanie Reed
Political correctness will continue to get people killed, either as a direct result or indirectly when we allow them to subvert our Constitution in the name of "fairness" and we sit idly by. I sit idly by no longer.
- Craig Eddy
Woohoo! New batteries for the garage-door opener!
That's got to be a relief. I'm still waiting for the opener. ;) The mainspring broke and its not going up anytime soon. lol
- Melanie Reed
At Locally Grown Gardens - http://kamilah.posterous.com/at-loca...
John (a.k.a. dendroica), Melanie Reed, VAL D. and 2 other people liked this
Are they selling any persimmons there? If so, what are they going for now?
- Melanie Reed
Thinking about taking 2 steps back in order to move forward in a new direction with this whole job thing. Whatcha mean, you ask? Well, back in the way back (at least in internet years) I worked for a non-profit. Have found a job in the non-profit sector that I think, with some resume reworking and an interview, I could get and do well with.
rowlikeagirl, Polly Potter, J. Abdul-Qahhar and 12 other people liked this
None of this sounds like anything really spectacular I know, but with it being a non-profit odds are the pay won't be near what I was making before. The upside is that it would be an organization I'm familiar with and support, whereas before the software I was making was used for something I didn't support (offshoring).
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
No real point to all this, I suppose. Just me thinking out loud.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I'll join you in your thoughts. I've never worked for a non-profit, but I've interviewed with them before, and there's always the chance that the non-profit could take advantage of its non-profit status and pay you less than it could afford to pay. But other than that, it sounds like a plan, especially if you'd agree more with what the non-profit does than what a for-profit would do.
- John E. Bredehoft
Yes, the pay issue I've experienced first hand the last time I worked for a non-profit. With that said, this is an organization that's large enough to offer career growth, whereas the last was a local organization filled with 'lifers': I wasn't going to go anywhere even if I'd stayed on. Mainly, in a perfect world I want to work for a company I respect doing a job I'm good at that *fingers crossed* will last me more than 3 years without a layoff or shutdown.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
I was offered a full-time position this week working for a non-profit (out of nowhere, I didn't apply for it). $25k a year for M-F, 8-5, and 9-12 on Saturday. Also, no benefits. It was a difficult decision, but I turned them down. ;-) Hope yours is a better offer. Non-profit jobs can be very rewarding.
- Trish R
be careful, Im 2 years into that situation and its tricky. Working in IT for a long time, you adopt a certain professionalism without realizing it. You take for granted that certain things are understood, and that is not always the case. I did it, I'd do it again, but did not realize what I was in for. Think it through, your call, good luck
- echostreamer
lol I probably would have killed to make $25k when I worked at a non-profit.
- Dragon Goldmaple
This particular opening isn't a tech position though it does require a certain amount of tech skills. The biggest issue I had the last time I went through the non-profit wringer was being taken for granted. I was responsible for staffing the local crisis line and if someone didn't show up and no replacements were found, guess who took the shift... Not that I minded being on the lines, but a human can only work so many 36 hour days before it catches up with her.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
There's no such thing as "taking a step back"!
- Paul Reynolds
Hmmm... Are you saying there's no such thing as in the sense of "There IS no spoon!" or in the sense of "NOOOOOoooooooooooo don't do it!!!"
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
any action is a step forward, if you don't take it, you're standing still and sometimes that's the best place to be. ethically, working for a nonprofit could be a step forward not back. all depends on your perspective.
- echostreamer
Tina, if you scope out a non-profit that uses The Raiser's Edge fundraising software, and you need a 'crash course' - you let me know :)
- Micah Wittman
Tina, I am glad to be working for a non-profit. It's an extremely peaceful atmosphere. And I feel my work there is worthwhile. And yes, it was a total departure for me. For me, it was God grabbing me and getting my attention from what appeared to be a very bright academic future in one direction and turning me around to where people are really benefiting from what I learned to do, instead of me benefiting from it. I would never want to go back.
- Melanie Reed
I took an 80% pay cut (!!) to be happy and move back to Myrtle Beach. There were no prospects of building on my 7 year experience in video games. I have never once regretted it. There is no spoon.
- Paul Reynolds
from BuddyFeed
Paul, that's what I thought you meant but it never hurts to double check =D I'm surprised I didn't know so many FFers are or were in the non-profit sector. I might have to throw up the bat signal to you all if I have questions during this process!
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Doing work you respect and having the opportunity for growth are pluses that are hard to calculate into the salary and benefits package but they do contribute to your sense of wellbeing. Go for it and best wishes, Tina.
- Polly Potter
Polly, your first sentence is *exactly* what I was trying to express earlier in this thread. Thank you =)
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Song of the South has never been released on home vid. in the US, likely due to the fear it might be seen as racially insensitive to blacks.
Anna Haro, Helen Sventitsky, Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF and 29 other people liked this
There are bootlegs, Rochelle. It was released on laserdisc and in other countries, but not here. The last theatrical release in the U.S. was in 1986.
- Derrick
I can see why. But I did love those stories as a kid.
- Trish R
I've never seen the film, and I'm keen on reading the original stories by Joel Chandler Harris. I'd like to think that we can get to the point where we can view material that is racially insensitive WITHOUT all of a sudden blaming people. The movie was made in 1946, it's nearly 2010. Am I going to look at my non-black friends and go on an attack? Unlikely, but perhaps I give people too much credit.
- Derrick
I agree, Derrick, because the stories are written as being told by Uncle Remus, who spoke that way.
- Trish R
Julius Lester has written some interesting pieces about the stories and Harris. He's also re-written some of the stories. I <3 Julius Lester!
- Katy S
For those who don't know Julius Lester's work: http://members.authorsguild.net/juliusl... Derrick - did you know that he takes pictures??
- Katy S
I'm not familiar with his work, but will check it out. Thanks. :)
- Derrick
He's on a children's literature list serve that I'm on. So are Jane Yolen and Philip Pullman and some other authors. I have to really stifle my fan-girl impulses when they post.
- Katy S
Derrick, I'm not so worried about (black?) people blaming anyone for the material. I'm more worried that if this movie becomes available, a million American people will automatically buy it and show it to their young kids, who will absorb the "happy darkies" stuff without realizing what's wrong with it. I'm torn about making complete sets available. There was some kind of WB DVD set...
more...
- Kamilah Gill
I've never actually seen the whole thing. I would probably buy it if it were available.
- Abstinence-only works!
Kamilah - I'd be just as worried about adults' reactions to it as kids (for the same reasons)
- Katy S
It's funny to me that people are worried about reactions to this movie, when there are other movies out there where so-called "happy darkies" are integral parts of the storyline, but nobody would ever think to ban them. I'm specifically thinking of my (beloved) Gone With The Wind, a movie that's held up as an American classic (and rightly so). How is Song of the South more offensive than GWTW? It makes any protestations and any censorship/suppression moves by the parent companies seem disingenuous.
- cecily
And what about Dumbo? Can't you still get Dumbo on DVD? What about the crows in Dumbo?
- cecily
I agree, C. I do think Disney is one of those really overly cautious companies. Remember, the created the Touchstone Pictures umbrella to release movies that strayed outside of the cutesy Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Escape from Witch Mountain films, because we would get them so confused. And I love those crows.
- Derrick
Cecily - I've never seen Gone With The Wind, but I suspect I'd have a similar reaction. Dumbo just makes me cringe! I wouldn't censor anything, but I still think about how people react to the films.
- Katy S
Katy, I had to work hard to reconcile my feelings for GWTW. I love that movie, but it took me a long time to get there. What helped was trying to think of Prissy's inaction and "simplemindedness" as a form of slave resistance. If I'd never spent time reading slave narratives, I'd have never been able to come to that conclusion. </end_hijack>
- cecily
I'll tell you what movie really made me choke on my diet coke recently. I was watching Heidi with my niece. Somehow, this story that's suppose to take place in Switzerland, looked like it took place in a home that was on a Southern Plantation, complete with a mammy-character.
- Katy S
Dumbo and Lady and the Tramp are both questionable. I just think that Song of the South would get much more exposure, especially to children. It doesn't use animals for all of the racial stereotypes like the others. As for Gone with the Wind, I haven't seen it either, but I'd say it's more clearly aimed toward adults. Though I agree, with you, Katy. The adult exposure to Song of trhe South might be almost as problematic...
- Kamilah Gill
My extensive training with literature and critical examination of it helps me get through the parts that make me cringe. That critical distance thing. Having said that, I'd never give a child a copy of Little House on the Prairie. Just not going to happen.
- Katy S
I watch alot of old games shows and I gasp at some of the things they use to say..........
- VAL D.
I've still got the (original?) 78-RPM set that belonged to my Mom. We used to listen to the stories and songs as kids. "...it's the truth, it's factual; everything is satisfactual!"
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
from iPhone
Zip a dee doo dah is a great, fun song, but I think that's about all I'll need from that movie, thanks.
- Kamilah Gill
"Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder..."
- Katy S
I loved Song of the South as a kid (Br'er Rabbit is a G). I always saw it as a kind of animated Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer. There was a time when I think not having the movie available was more political than anything. Now, I think it's just hard to market (and to what value? There's not a real way to make ancillary money from Consumer Products from the film).
- Jason Toney
Dumbo is coming out on Blu-ray in Feb, FWIW.
- Alix Whitmire
LOVE Dumbo. I need to pre-order.
- Derrick
Animation fans have this discussion all the time. I think WB did a pretty good job handling it in its Golden Collection sets. In the first or second volume, they had an intro you couldn't skip that had Whoopi Goldeberg talking about how some of the cartoons were racist and that although no one was condoning that NOW, they were part of our past and better acknowledged than buried or...
more...
- Spidra Webster
How odd that you posted this, I just watched this movie last night. lol
- aerobroken
It seems to me that any racist ideology in Song of the South would be counteracted for children (like it was with me as a child) by the cultural attitudes of today. It was made in a different time and even kids today look at early WB cartoons and get something completely different from them than kids fro a generation ago did. I hope that someday they release it and let parents decide what is the best course of action for their own children.
- Kryptic
Katy, what is wrong with Little House on the Prairie? I don't recall anything bad in it but it's been a long time since I've read it.
- Rochelle
Yeah, what is offensive about Little House?
- Matthew DeVries
It's incredibly racist - even for its time. The Indians are described as grunting savages. Ma quotes that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" line multiple times through the story. It's really foul. Unless you are prepared to discuss the racism throughout the book with the child, I'd avoid it. If you haven't read it since you were a child, read it now as an adult and try to put aside your fond memories so that you can view it with some critical distance.
- Katy S
Also, LHotP is still a popular read-aloud book in many classrooms. I wish it wasn't, because it is often presented uncritically. Imagine hearing the things in that book if you are an American Indian child.
- Katy S
I enjoyed imagining I was one of those savages who put up a charade of attacks to hide the true force that was forthcomming, twas not fun being picked on because of that book when I was younger, then I detailed to my peers the history of the Cherokee and Tsali. On the other hand, I actually like LHotP now and I enjoy SotS as well.
- Tsali, The Native of FF
Katy the same thing would apply to half of the John Wayne, Davy Crokett movies/books. America has been really slow at learning about other cultures and presenting them in a decent light. I think most of the stuff that's been written/read/etc needs to be put into context sometimes. I think the best thing to do is just continue to show by words and actions that the past isn't the way to treat or portray people
- Sir Shuping
Sir Shuping - I agree. These things should be discussed. The problem is, it rarely is with this particular book. It is taught and read uncritically. I didn't say I'd ban or censor the book, I just said that I wouldn't give it to a kid without discussing these things. Sadly, this isn't done very often.
- Katy S
The thing about LHOP is that it's about settlers. It's about people who were "given" land that was taken away from the natives. It's built in to the story. That the characters (somewhat fictionalized versions of real people) called the indigenous people "savages" is only true to what was going on at that time. Teachers, parents, caretakers need to put that stuff in context. http://www.newyorker.com/arts...
- Spidra Webster
The success of some children's lit is interesting in that it is often based on what adults remember fondly. Little Black Sambo has never been out of print, despite the racism throughout it.
- Katy S
Oh I know you weren't saying ban or censor. But maybe my experiences are prejudiced, but even though I read LHOP, saw movies like Song of the South, Dumbo, etc. I never thought of it as showing me how to treat other people. I learned that from the people around me how others were supposed to be treated. Perhaps because we've lived through all of this turmoil and change in how races/cultures/religions/sexual preferences are treated things stand out a bit more (just my deep thought for the evening :)
- Sir Shuping
Spidra - That's true, but again I would say that this should be discussed with readers. My problem with the use of the text is the uncritical way in which it is used and taught, specifically in classrooms. And, most parents don't discuss these books critically with their kids. They just remember how much they loved it and give it to their children for that reason.
- Katy S
I think that's a valid criticism, Katy.
- Spidra Webster
I think it's easy for white folks to read these books and say that they didn't affect them (but, did they play cowboys and indians?), but that's like saying that the people of a minority group shouldn't be offended by something rather than letting them decide what is or isn't offensive. My point is, that Little House is just as bad as these other texts and images that have been...
more...
- Katy S
fwiw, I first read the book as an adult (although I was familiar with the tv show). I expected some racism just because of the time it was written and the attitudes at that time. I didn't expect it to be quite as bad as it is.
- Katy S
Oh - Louise Erdrich has been writing a really fantastic series of books to counter LHotP. The first book is titled The Birchbark House. Great book, and the writing is much better than Ingalls'.
- Katy S
I'm finding myself obsessed with some stuff where I expect there to be some racial attitudes indicative of the time: Uncle Tom's Cabin, Gone With the Wind, The Confessions of Nat Turner, Sapphira and the Slave Girl, etc. I need to give these all a re-read to give me something to chew on. I always find myself in a curious state when seeing non-black people write about black people.
- Derrick
So fascinating. For the record, I hate Gone With the Wind but love Dumbo and recall liking Song of the South, although that was (obviously) years and years ago. My mother read me the Laura Ingalls Wilder books without comment, though I've since gone back to them and seen that they have Problems. She did, however, upon giving me the Little Colonel books, say, "Now, there are things that...
more...
- laura x
I haven't re-visited Song of the South since I was a child. I do remember feeling very comforted by Uncle Remus. There was a gentleness to him that was, frankly, missing in a lot of my surroundings. I didn't know enough to know that his way of speaking and singing would be racist... i may be mis-remembering, but I seem to recall that it was 'fun'... playful language. Older, sadder and wiser, I'd now be prepared to revise my take on Song of the South.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
I had a Song of the South album with story/songs from sometime in the 70s, as well as a few other Disney records. Probably acquired at a garage sale.
- Eric @ CS Techcast
Walt Disney actually campaigned for the lead actor, James Baskett, to be considered for an Oscar.
- Melanie Reed
totally with you on the crows in Dumbo. But, um, yes, i love them. for what it's worth, as a child i saw them as funny, weird crows and funny, weird crows only. It was only when i saw Dumbo again as an adult that I noticed that perhaps they weren't just crows.
- edythe
Derrick, I'm glad. Especially in the case of GWTW. I often find people most opposed have not read the book. There is a very pivotal scene that defines freedom and the motivations of one of the lead characters that most people miss.
- Melanie Reed
I did not remember that Hattie McDaniel who won Best Supporting Actress for GWTW was also in Song of the South
- Melanie Reed
Right now I am grading student essays for Othello. They have to create play review forms for each play and aside from some regurgitation of the text and the events, they do have cover motivation and are encouraged to set up arguments based upon the attitudes of the time which are pertinent to the understanding of the play. My point is that this play is going to also be a touchstone. What do we do about portrayals in literature ?
- Melanie Reed
Derrick, Also, my other question is about Joel Chandler Harris who collected the Brer Rabbit stories but did not originate the idea. He is considered a folklorist. Should those stories be preserved or should they be forgotten. Is there something to be lost if they are forgotten? What are your feelings about that?
- Melanie Reed
The grandmother points out a "pickaninny" in "A Good Man is Hard to Find." While reading this to my ninth grader--mainly second-generation South Americans (this was in 2000, in Miami)--there was a collective gasp when I read that word. I took that as a good sign. I did not use it as a "teaching moment," however. I said, basically, "this story was written in the American South of 1955....
more...
- edythe
Otoh, were we reading The Great Gatsby, I'd have a lot more to say about the depiction of Jews and blacks, as it doesn't have much to do with giving you insight about the book's characters. Similarly, If the part in AGMIHtF was written as, "They drove past a pickaninny," I'd feel differently and perhaps would not have read it to them at all. But then Flannery O'Connor would also be a different writer and... well, you get what I'm saying. Well, I hope you do, anyway.
- edythe
Wow, I had never heard the term "pickaninny" before this thread.
- Alex Scoble
Joey and I had this conversation while waiting in line for Splash Mountain. I would really like to see the movie since I can't remember ever seeing it before (other than the classic zippity-do-dah song). I do think it's kind of funny that people are somewhat against releasing the movie - there are far more offensive things on the interwebs (godhatesfags.com and kkk.com come to mind)
- Kyle Johnson
I am, clearly, a white woman and, of course, have always been so. That may may make me ignorant with respect to many things, although I have always tried and continue to try to pay attention and to be as aware and as sensitive as I possibly can. I am good at putting myself in other people's shoes and I do try to do it as much as i can and to listen. What I'm trying to say, really quite awkwardly, is that if my attitude above seems shockingly dismissive of the Flannery O'Connor scene, please tell me so.
- edythe
Oh, and, Cecily, I very much like your interpretation of Prissy's simplicity being a form of passive resistance!
- edythe
Here's what SOTS says to me: that there is courage in horrible circumstances. That there is joy that survives the deepest pain. That humor is stronger than ignorance. And that if you destroy that you let them beat you.
- Melanie Reed
And yes, Cecily, that is exactly what Margaret Mitchell was saying in Prissy. :) Besides, don't you just kinda clap and lol when she shuts the lid of the trunk and breaks all those dishes?! lol
- Melanie Reed
I watched the Japanese laserdisc version and I found it to be mostly harmless. I understand why it's a sensitive thing because of how the black people are portrayed, as happy slaves, but you have to take it in the context of the time from which it was made. To censor it, kind of goes against the grain of America, in my opinion. We need to remember our past, not cover it up.
- Alex Scoble
Edythe - that makes sense to me. There's a difference in age groups here. Your 9th graders can process what you said about the text more critically than the age group LHotP is written for (approx. 2nd graders). Plus, if you are examining other texts critically - like Gatsby - it's part of the pedagogy, so there is a connection. Actually, I think LHotP would be a great text to use with middle school and/or high school students to discuss these issues.
- Katy S
A quote from Flannery O'Connor, paraphrased (i'd love to know your thoughts): "The artist needs to let the devil have play in the art, lest the devil have play in the artist."
- T. Brent, technopeasant
There is nothing original about evil. It is a corruption of good which is in itself creative. Observing and accurately reporting that corruption does not necessarily arise from creativity. A confession from C. S. Lewis on writing the Screwtape letters: it was one of the most distasteful voices he had to adopt when writing it.. But he did it for a purpose. You can read about it in his afterword of the book
- Melanie Reed
I don't have anything to add (besides that when I bought Peter Pan and we watched it my jaw dropped...I guess growing up in the PNW counterbalanced the depictions of Natives that were in that film, because I completely missed that as a child). I read the Brer Rabbit stories when I was a child and I completely missed the subtext. The 'tar baby'...wow. But at the time I had no idea that...
more...
- joey
And for someone who doesn't have anything to add, I sure do ramble.
- joey
O'Connor's quote is definitely worth remembering, Brent.
- Christopher Harley
O'Connor is one of my favourite Southern writers. Of her contemporaries, she's one of the few whose black characters were multifaceted, complex individuals who had active lives outside of and away from whites. Even though the races encountered each other frequently in her work, black folk weren't just window dressing in her stories. In light of her work, I think Brent's quote is illuminating.
- cecily
O'Connor is good
- ★ Soner Gönül
Cecily, yes,there are a number of southern writers I appreciate that come to mind in particular Eudora Welty who wrote about living in Mississippi and was inclusive of all the lives she observed. Of her's my favorite is "A Worn Path". The concern I have with Ms. O'Conner is while her aim was not ambiguity, her aim was to highlight Grace, it became an issue- most exceptionally in her "A...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Not true. It was released in the US as a videodisc back in the 1980's. I got a copy ported over to VHS. It's a shame it isn't available in any other format though. It portrays black people as people with dignity and love in my opinion.
- Kevin Trotman
Watching, for the 3rd time--Les Paul: Chasing Sound http://www.hulu.com/les-pau...
J. Abdul-Qahhar, Melanie Reed, T. Brent, technopeasant and Alex Scoble liked this
thank you, mr. paul
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Always my favorite: http://www.youtube.com/watch... I love his fingering and fretboard action especially at the end. :)
- Melanie Reed
If Les Paul threw a guitar down a flight of stairs, I'd sit and listen to it.
- Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)
lol :) Yes,he had a gift
- Melanie Reed
If you had a Star Trek-style replicator, what would you ask it to make for you?
Micah Wittman, rowlikeagirl, Kol Tregaskes and 4 other people liked this
Another replicator.
- LogEx
7of9
- Johnny Worthington
You realize that both of those would be crushed into the approximately 2 cubic feet of space inside there, right?
- Glen Campbell
I'd like a Peanut Butter Sandwich. I don't feel like getting up.
- Eric @ CS Techcast
Taye Diggs.
- Derrick
Gray goo
- Internet's Tad
Clean clothes....and maybe a carne asada burrito.
- Anika
Trick question: I don't want to become one of the "monkey people". (South American morality tale) I'll get up and make it myself. but thank you. ;)
- Melanie Reed
tea, earl grey, hot.
- Scott
Make another replicator. Edit: Oops, LogEx already said it. :P
- imabonehead
Derrick's answer works for me too. Oh yes.
- Carmen
Glen, I'm a "Coglian" at heart. ;)
- Melanie Reed
Scott, I hope it makes better tea than the Volgon spaceship's cook.
- Anika
Hey as long as there isn't a poetry reading we're golden.
- Scott
Scott, yeah. I'm pretty sure replicators are only optimized for black tea. Don't expect to get a good Rooibos or green tea with the thing.
- Micah Wittman
Now Micah, they are optimized for Counselor Troi's Hot chocolate. :)
- Melanie Reed
I'd ask for some Lego
- Dean "Karnatos" Michaud
cash
- Josh Haley
from iPhone
I thought of that, Josh, to pay off my obligations but then again, I don't know how that would affect the future and the relationships I would (or wouldn't make) so while it's tempting...I'll wait. ;)
- Melanie Reed
Melanie, Hot chocolate is a dessert. That's a whole 'nother conversation :P
- Micah Wittman
Ehn, clothes, car, cash, spare iPhones, huge TV, the most elaborate dinner ever.
- Clark Baumgartner 蔵明 馬武刀
Shamrock Shake
- Rodfather
No, Micah, its a "desert topping AND a floor wax!" haha (I'm trying to think of a funnier commercial illustrating a paradox...but I can't)
- Melanie Reed
Old school SNL?
- Micah Wittman
Micah, yes Classic
- Melanie Reed
just coffee
- Onur Gündüz
A left handed 73 hard-tail Strat, a 69 Thunderbird, my body weight in candy corn...
- J. Abdul-Qahhar
Alladin's lamp
- Pete Delucchi
from iPhone
BTW, replicator fans: http://makerbot.com
- Micah Wittman
Gold-pressed latinum--I mean, uh, Taimak, Dean Cain, a fellow employee and Jet Li. That's after it made a larger replicator with enough space not to crush the fellas.
- MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Imagine if you were a Catholic, and had to worry about being attacked in retaliation every time some Jesus-loving wacko murdered an abortion doctor, raped little kids in the name of God, or opened fire on government agents.
Roberta Marilli, Eivind, See-ming Lee 李思明 SML and 38 other people liked this
Hey, those southern faiths make us Catholics look like Timothy Leary
- Matthew DeVries
I guess this same could be said for any religion. Here, I'll star: "Imagine if you were a Muslim and had to worry about being attacked in retaliation every time some wacko hijacked a plane, suicide bombed something in the name of God, or opened fire on American soldiers."
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
That's pretty much what I was thinking about, Rahsheen. I think it's insane that mosques in the U.S. now have to tighten up security just because that Army psychiatrist happens to be Muslim.
- Victor Ganata
Or imagine that all white people were Klan members and then treat, or expect to be treated by them accordingly
- J. Abdul-Qahhar
Or imagine being Irish and getting sued every time someone found a fist sized hole in their drywall
- Matthew DeVries
@Matthew LOL ... I'm Catholic, and happy to be one, but MAN am i expected to provide apologetics for this stuff...
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Victor, what a person says he is does not mean that he is. What a person does defines who he is and who his "father" is.
- Melanie Reed
Do you guys know Ron Hansen? Arguably the best Catholic writer out these days... wrote "The Assassination of Jesse James..." and some other wonderful books. He claims, as an academic, that he's had colleagues walk out of the room when they find out he's Catholic...
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Heh, I didn't mean to single out Catholics—I just happen to have been born and raised as one so I used them as an example—but replace "Catholic" with any Muslim sect and "Jesus" with "Muhammad", and the list of acts that I mentioned with the list of acts that Rahsheen mentioned, and you get the weird mentality of some people in this country.
- Victor Ganata
Those in this thread may find this RSS feed a good edition to your read - it's analysis of religion and media coverage thereof http://feeds.feedburner.com/getreli... (http://www.getreligion.org ). It's solid writing.
- Micah Wittman
Victor, if its any consolation, some of us understood what you were saying :). And yes, that would suck.
- j1m
I assume it's the same for other faiths but, as I'm not a Muslim (for example), I don't feel it's my place to say... I wait for them to say it. :)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
@ Rahsheen - that only applies to middle-eastern originated religions. The Buddhists don't tend to be violent, and I haven't yet heard of Hindu fundamentalists hijacking planes or performing suicide bombings.
- Piaw Na
Andrew, but it's not like Sri Lankans look at that and say, see, all Hindus are evil, it's inherent in their religion. At least, I don't think they do?
- Victor Ganata
It's because so many people see Muslims as outsiders - it is easier for Americans to write off one crazy white guy but a crazy brown guy is part of a giant conspiracy.
- Dragon Goldmaple
Yeah, because all Muslims are brown
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
It's more that all brown people are Muslim.
- Dragon Goldmaple
ANDR-IZZLE G-IZZLE Excellent point. Thank you for bringing that out. One's skin color does not always determine one's citizenship or one's religion. People of all skin colors convert to various religions (and defect from others), while there is a general population that still represents a particular religion.
- Melanie Reed
That latter point is where the rubber meets the road: you still have major populations that do represent a particular religion. Within that general category there can be extremists. Also within that general category can be those who "can be turned" and sometimes do become extremists for whatever reason later to be revealed. One of the reasons 9/11 happened is that there was more of an...
more...
- Melanie Reed
being Catholic has nothing to do with it...........since the beginning of mankind someone was doing in honor of their God..............
- VAL D.
I think that was the point.
- Dragon Goldmaple
Was he part of a group? So far there's no evidence to point to such.
- Victor Ganata
Victor, that is currently being investigated but within certain extremist ideology it is a general mandate without needing to opt into a special group: http://friendfeed.com/breakin...
- Melanie Reed
I think it's an unwarranted conclusion to jump to. It's more likely that he was simply mentally ill.
- Victor Ganata
No, they are not (and I am most certainly not) jumping to any conclusions. But that line of inquiry has to be followed up. What I advocate is cautious behavior. while maintaining the olive branch of fairness.
- Melanie Reed
I think "Did the subject subscribe to an ideology that leaves violence on the table as a rational response" is a valid point to have on a mass shooting investigatory checklist. Christians, Gang Members, KKK members, Roller Derby Members, pretty much everything but Budist, Hindu, Jain, Siek, Zoroastrians would be on that list with Muslims. Even Hippies think violence is ok (See PETA, GreenPeace, Weather Underground, Manson)
- Matthew DeVries
OK, if Muslims, then why not Christians? I think it's bogus, personally. But who knows, maybe he was in a sleeper cel.
- Victor Ganata
@Victor: because christianity is the good religion and muslim is the evil religion, obviously.
- Rene Wirtz
But that isn't my point anyway. Maybe he was in a terrorist organization. After all, there are plenty of Christian cultists who perform acts of terror as well that need to be investigated. My point is that if you're just an average Muslim, why should you be subjected to harassment and threats?
- Victor Ganata
I see your point and I agree. But,we should hold off on any kind of comment or labeling until it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that he did belong to a terrorist sleeper cell. And the same thing needs to happen for whenever anyone of any religious affiliation commits a crime. Everyone should be treated equal and only those that committed the crime should be held rsponsible, not everyone who happens to share the perp's beliefs.
- Rene Wirtz
You realize that Yesterday was Guy Fawkes day right Victor? Kind of resulted in routing the Catholics right out of England. Go find me a British Catholic now. All because some dude decided to blow up parliament, and now 400 years later the British Catholic is extinct.
- Matthew DeVries
Andrew Sullivan, before he moved to the US?
- Andrew C
Well, yeah, like I said, Christian terrorists are well known throughout history. Ask anyone living in North Ireland, too, for that matter, right?
- Victor Ganata
Matthew -- Northern Scotland stayed Catholic...
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Yes, Victor, there are extremists who claim parts of almost all religions. Even in India the wars between the various religions including the ones mentioned by Matthew were notorious. In Jesus' earthly time, there were Jewish zealots which is why he was under suspicion by the Romans. But he preached something entirely different: He said "my kingdom is no part of this world." and he also...
more...
- Melanie Reed
I think the apocalypse officially starts the day a Buddhist monk straps on high-powered explosives and takes out a government facility.
- Victor Ganata
I do think all Christians pay a price for the fanatical Christian fringe. It's why HBO can pee on Jesus and call it comedy. Granted the levels of real and feared retaliation aren't the same, but neither is the level of violence on the Christian side compare to the Muslim side. That said, blaming an entire group for the acts of a few is ALWAYS wrong. Unfortunately, human nature predicts that there will always be anti-X bigots whenever there are X bigots.
- Dawn
I really don't buy the idea that Muslims are more violent than Christians. There are more than 229 million Indonesians, the majority Muslim, and as far as I can tell, they don't really seem any more violent than Americans, really.
- Victor Ganata
Christians have a long history of extraordinary violence over the centuries. By the far the bloodiest war in American history (to pick one example) was instigated by Bible-thumping Southern fundamentalists -- the very same cultural group which is trying to instigate a global holy against Islam in contemporary times. They used the Bible and their version of Christianity as a justification for slavery and crude racism. They almost blew the United States to smithereens. They're still out there, in droves.
- Sean McBride
Is that a requirement? When I was Catholic I never worried about being attacked. By that same logic, if you're an abortion doctor or little kid you must live in fear of being shot or raped by Catholics. Everyone can live in fear, there's plenty of scary things in the world.
- Lo
I'm not talking about just living in fear though. I'm talking about having that fear realized, with people actually trying to harm you, just because of that association.
- Victor Ganata
a lot of it depends on where you live, too
- T. Brent, technopeasant
[redacted. cannot express clearly]
- Lo
I think everyone in the world belongs to a group that has some reasoning to fear others. And most groups do have their fears realized. Men and women, religious or not, from the right or wrong place in the world/country/state/town, too young or too old. People categorize and when they do they push people where they don't belong. People who shoot others don't do it because they are religious or of a certain race, they do it because of some mental problem that causes them to be able to devalue human life.
- Heather
That's what I think, too, Heather. First and foremost, people who commit these kind of acts are mentally ill. Of course, that doesn't mean you can be automatically absolved of guilt, either. Just because you have a mental illness doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions, or that you don't have the capacity to make decisions.
- Victor Ganata
So Buddhists don't become mentally ill, but Muslims and Christians do? Why is that?
- Piaw Na
Piaw, I don't really think that either. Obviously, there are lots of cases where Buddhists kill other people and commit massacres. But Western media doesn't look for them like they do for Muslim or Christian terrorists.
- Victor Ganata
Mentally ill? I don't know about that. I think it has been proven, possibly scientifically, that people seek some type of religion so that their life makes sense. Some of us steer clear of organized religion, but most other people would put their lives up for it. If your very existence is tied to certain beliefs and somehow you have come to believe that you have to kill someone to uphold those beliefs, that's what you're going to do. I don't think it means you're actually mentally ill.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Yes, Rasheen. There is a big difference between what is classified as mental illness and being mentally blinded. We think, form ideas in mental pictures. If you have been shown the wrong mental picture by whatever circumstance, it is almost as if you are "under a spell". Both Chesterton and Lewis demonstrated that when writing to your audience and presenting an opposing concept to overcome faulty critical thinking you have to "snap the spell".
- Melanie Reed
Now, as far as the stigma against Muslims, I think it's complete and total bull. I'm no expert on religion, but it seems to me that they all share the same basic philosophies or whatever. For the majority of Americans to look down on one religion because of a few extremists is just ridiculous. I don't even think most Americans know what Jihad means.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Rasheen, I think before 9/11 that was correct. I remember the day and the first word that went through my mind when I fully let the report sink in was "Jihad" but that was because I remembered my study of it. I don't think that is the case now. I've been surprised at the sampling of people whose demeanor and clothes would have signified to me a lack of interest previously to these...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Rahsheen, I think you're right, there are people who rationally come to the conclusion that they have to kill for their religion and way of life, but in this case, I'm putting my money on the fact that he's seriously fucked up in the head. But that's just a hunch. I could be very wrong.
- Victor Ganata
Religions are definitely not the same. Buddhism is a far cry from the middle-eastern religions. I think to lump them all together does them a disservice. The evangelical religions, I think, are a particular blight on the human race.
- Piaw Na
I still remember what my Scripture teacher in high school, who was a Jesuit priest, said about other religions. If you looked at the most devout, pious followers of almost any religion and examined their personal attributes, what they had in common would far outweigh where they differed. Good people are good people. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, and to judge them by the actions of a few extremists is a serious injustice.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: "If you looked at the most devout, pious followers of almost any religion and examined their personal attributes, what they had in common would far outweigh where they differed. Good people are good people." -- Obviously the vast majority of religious folks aren't violent extremists, but it's among the "most devout, pious followers" of the Abrahamic religions that you're most...
more...
- Christopher A Carr
I disagree. The non-evangelicals don't usually run around declaring that you're going to hell for not believing in their god. The evangelicals are a blight for that reason. Similarly, the most devout fundamentalists are the most likely to shoot abortion-providing doctors.
- Piaw Na
Well, being a Jesuit, he would probably consider those kinds of evangelicals and fundamentalists to not be true Christians, in that they're following a perverted version of God's message. If you're going to perform eisegesis on the Bible, you can justify anything sort of behavior, but as far as I can tell, I don't think Jesus would condone massacring non-believers or damning them to hell. Unless I missed a few verses in the Gospels?
- Victor Ganata
Victor: Jesus doesn't want non-believers in hell?
- Christopher A Carr
Devout and pious in terms of following the true spirit of their respective religions. I can't really find anything in the Bible that explicitly says that God likes it when you kill lots of people and blow them up into tiny bits, and while I haven't read the Quran as closely, I don't think there's anything in there either that explicitly states violence is the best way to be a good Muslim.
- Victor Ganata
John 14:6 - "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
- Piaw Na
Yes, but where's the killing and the damning in the verse?
- Victor Ganata
Oh, the "true spirit" of their religions. I see.
- Christopher A Carr
Victor: There are calls for genocide in the OT, or are you not including that?
- Christopher A Carr
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)
- Piaw Na
So the way they taught us was that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament whenever there's a conflict. From what I know, it looks like Jesus wouldn't have been into genocide, but I could be wrong.
- Victor Ganata
Yes, but what the hell is the definition of a witch? And, again, NT > OT.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: Ah, that's how that works. I figured they just cherry picked the parts they liked from the OT, and ignored the unsavory bits.
- Christopher A Carr
That is how it seems to work :D I haven't met a Catholic who was a complete literalist yet, but they probably exist.
- Victor Ganata
Christopher, not really. It is an entire narrative pointing to what happens in the New Testament. And the New Testament ties both together. How much and how far have you read in either?
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: How do you decide which parts of Leviticus still hold, and which do not?
- Christopher A Carr
Just for point of reference, religion-wise, I'm far from a devout Catholic. I consider myself agnostic, really. I think there's a lot of superstition and deliberate misinterpretation that people cling to by calling it tradition. I think the Church is very wrong on a lot of social issues, and hypocritical too if they're really supposed to be driven by Jesus' great commandments. But I was...
more...
- Victor Ganata
Christopher: it's sort of like the U.S. Constitution: the OT correspond to the articles, the NT are the amendments. At least that's how we were taught scripture my freshman year in high school.
- Victor Ganata
I had heard this previously and meaning lost in translation is a problem in all religions. "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". Poisoning was a huge problem at the time. King James was a huge believer in the occult. The play Macbeth was written specifically for him by Shakespeare based on James's interests. In the King James version, the word was translated inadvertantly (or maybe even purposefully) to "witch
- Eric Logan
Victor: There are lots of points in the OT that are never specifically amended, but are still ignored by (most) Catholics.
- Christopher A Carr
Eric: Fine, but what of all the slaughter and rape demanded of the Israelites by Jahweh?
- Christopher A Carr
Seriously question: I remember reading about a lot of stonings for various offenses. I'm assumings all that was old testament stuff?
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Christopher: the Jesuits also taught us to interpret both the OT and the NT more as works of literature that embodied certain themes rather than an actual guidebook to human behavior. They clearly weren't writing for a modern audience. Slaughter and rape seem to be countermanded by Mark 12:28-12:34 http://bible.oremus.org/... but maybe I'm reading into the text.
- Victor Ganata
Christopher this is what the scriptures from the old testament to the new were about to give you a very condensed reply. The "law" which you mention coming from Leviticus as well as Exodus and Deuteronomy (which means "second law") were a "tutor leading to Christ" :http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... Jesus summed up the law and its purpose this way:...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: You can't paraphrase for me?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, I was raised in a religious tradition that has doctrinal variances based upon what they believe to be transliterations of Hebrew. For example they do not believe in Hell. I found a site that talks about rape in the book of Numbers and will have to research it. I have never been a devout member of any religion. I do study comparative religion and religious origins.
- Eric Logan
Christopher: the heart of those passages are "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
- Victor Ganata
I'm also seem to remember there was a specific hierarchy for which text was considered authoritative. Something like Gospels > Acts > epistles > OT. It's been a while since I studied the Bible that closely.
- Victor Ganata
Rahsheen, There are a few incidents of stoning in the new testament. That was at the time part of the penal system. The vast majority of the scriptures referring to stoning are in the OT
- Eric Logan
Christopher, We were given a choice in the beginning: listen to God and live well or go our own way and endure the consequences (life as we know it today: not very pleasant for a lot of us is it? But we have free will) God worked out a plan within that free will to give us a chance out of this mess and back into a restored relationship with him. He had to educate a very stubborn minded...
more...
- Melanie Reed
So if the OT has mostly been countermanded, why do Christians so frequently cling to ridiculous shit like the tales of Genesis, Noah and the flood, Exodus, and so forth?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, can you clarify what you mean by ridiculous?
- Melanie Reed
And as Eric mentions, the popular conception of Hell doesn't really exist in the OT or the Gospel. The original afterlife was Sheol, where both the righteous and the unrighteous end up. There's also Gehenna, where sinners go to be destroyed, but they don't get eternally punished. Certainly, the conception of Hell that they taught me in high school (which I perhaps wrongly assume is the...
more...
- Victor Ganata
Melanie: Sure, for one, you can't fit every species that was extant 5-something thousands years ago on a boat. What about nematodes that live in arctic ice, and Noah's boat sailed down to Australia to drop off all those marsupials?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, since you and I weren't there as eyewitnesses, then from the evidence left, I think we can safely assume He found a way. And I for one am no gladder knowing the explanatory details that science would attempt to give us, than I am having been given the narrative which assures me that what I see survived did.
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: How long would it take you to get that boat to Australia?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: I can't explain it either. Like I said, I have yet to meet a Catholic who interprets the Bible literally. Most Catholics I know don't believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old, or even that God completely destroyed civilization in a flood. They're stories that carry a divinely inspired message, but the instruments of that message are limited by their time and place and culture, and their perspective isn't our perspective.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: I think Melanie here takes a somewhat more literal view of things.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, right now I am studying advanced algebra (I actually have to get some homework done) and it provides me some activity of discovery. That discovery process is interesting, challenging and sometimes (when its a subject I like) very enjoyable. I'm very grateful that God left a lot of the details of the facts that don' t really change the reality a sort of "mystery" for me and...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: I'm not sure I understand what that means (sounds like a nice sentiment), but I'll let you off the hook here.
- Christopher A Carr
The flood story is much older than the Hebrew bible. I have a hunch Christopher already knows this. It appears in almost all religious traditions. Many Bible students and scholars say it originates from an oral tradition and the first recorded instance that takes the form of the Hebrew tradition appears on Sumerian cuneiform.
- Eric Logan
Really interesting discussion! I wish it were generally accepted that doctrines, faiths and ancient scriptures are not "true" - but they may have "value." Then one could sift out the superstitions, ancient "health codes" and terribly outmoded penal codes and acceptable crimes (slavery, incest, genocide.) Then careful study of all religions (such as Eric mentions) might find that the "value" of these faiths is shared to a large degree. But, I'm an Atheist, so it's not really for me to say :)
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
Because religion has become an effective means of exerting and essentially an extension of political power. It is difficult to ascertain what surely many religious institutions know to be commonly held misconceptions and error. That where in many cases created in the interests of the organization. Core values and beneficence, which I think is the point Victor was trying to make here are more common than anyone would think based on centuries of conflict. Which certainly does not seem to be on the wane.
- Eric Logan
Eric: Regarding flood myths, suppose farmers around some body of water, 7k years or so ago, got word that the waters were coming, and had time to get some of their most essential animals on something that floats -- such an event would surely make an impression. The survivor diaspora retells the story over generations, and of course it turns into the whole world having flooded (might as well have been the whole world to them). ...seems plausible.
- Christopher A Carr
It is certainly plausible. It would be the whole world from their perspective. Might be time for a modern day council of Nicea.
- Eric Logan
Whatever your opinion of Catholic dogma, to get an accurate, up-to-date presentation of its tenets, you are best consulting the Catechism. In there, you'll find the Church's current position on all aspects of Catholicism: Hell, the Old Testament, the Flood story, relationship to Islam, etc. I suspect the Church would rather their authentic positions be questioned, than a misrepresentation. :)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
sorry... this link might be easier to navigate (the index, instead of the T of C): http://www.vatican.va/archive...
- T. Brent, technopeasant
T. Brent: Their "authentic" position has sure changed over time, hasn't it?
- Christopher A Carr
yes. i don't argue that point.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Christopher: I think they'd argue that God's revelation isn't static. They value tradition almost as much as scripture itself, and tradition continues to evolve. The Church I grew up in was significantly different from the one my parents grew up in.
- Victor Ganata
@Victor I'm a wee bit jealous that you were educated by jesuits... I have a deep respect for them. :)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Heh, I went to a Dominican elementary school and junior high. The priests there actually warned me about the Jesuits before I went to high school. I have to say, it was the Jesuits who taught me to question my faith. And I think anyone who argues that religion can't coexist with rationality and science has clearly never met a Jesuit.
- Victor Ganata
Exactly. Rigorous minds, eh?
- T. Brent, technopeasant
I did a semester at a Jesuit university in Tokyo. Was odd to see the occasional, sort of ashen Swiss German priest, walk past Japanese nuns.
- Christopher A Carr
"I think anyone who argues that religion can't coexist with rationality and science has clearly never met a Jesuit." --- They just happen to be people with a talent for compartmentalization, and they often have fancy educations that make them even better at bullshitting themselves.
- Christopher A Carr
That's not rationality.
- Christopher A Carr
Maybe we define rationality differently. Being rational doesn't mean you necessarily know the truth (or non-truth) about something. (And I'm not even talking about supernatural things.)
- Victor Ganata
Also, I never had the balls to ask them what they REALLY think about transubstantiation :D
- Victor Ganata
Christopher: were you exposed to the Spiritual Exercises at all? I'd like to know what you thought of them...
- T. Brent, technopeasant
T.Brent: No, Sophia doesn't force any such thing on students. Sophia is a fairly well-regarded private university. Victor: We likely do have different definitions of "rationality." Were one to know the truth, there would be no need for processes of thought that could be deemed either rational or non-rational.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: there's no need to get nasty. i wasn't talking about being "forced" to do anything. I asked if you'd been exposed to it. And what difference does it make if it's a private university? Well-regarded, or not?
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Sorry, didn't mean to sound nasty, Brent. Wasn't a goal.
- Christopher A Carr
apology accepted. mea culpa. ;)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Catholic Unis run by Jesuits don't tend to push Catholicism...to their credit...that's all I was saying.
- Christopher A Carr
Here are a couple sites that quite seriously address human rationality and cognitive biases: http://www.overcomingbias.com/ http://lesswrong.com/
- Christopher A Carr
Victor: Would love to hear that transubstantiation discussion.
- Christopher A Carr
thanks for the links, christopher... looks like interesting stuff.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Christopher: Given that Catholics tend to be non-literalists, I don't really see a conflict between science and Catholic dogma/doctrine. Lots of Jesuits were scientists and mathematicians. Georges Lemaitre, S.J. is credited with originating the Big Bang Theory. I don't think there's necessarily a need for compartmentalization, although I don't doubt that in many cases you're right about their ability to bullshit themselves and others :D
- Victor Ganata
casuistry = bullshit? lol
- T. Brent, technopeasant
"I don't really see a conflict between science and Catholic dogma/doctrine." -- What are you on about Victor? It's nice that the Vatican has recognized that "Adam and Eve" might not have been anatomically modern humans, but do you really think there's no conflict there? Conflict between, an investigation into the nature of species productivity from the implications of natural and sexual...
more...
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: yeah, apparently the Vatican finds evolution perfectly compatible with Christianity http://www.reuters.com/article... It's basically a god-of-the-gaps approach. After all, we still don't know how the first cell came into existence :D
- Victor Ganata
It certainly does not find itself willing to follow the implications of neo-Darwinian investigation. And there is no such thing as a respected "Catholic Physics."
- Christopher A Carr
So you're saying the Big Bang theory is invalid because it was postulated by a Jesuit priest?
- Victor Ganata
I'll give the Catholics their lovely capacity for capitulation, though, relative to other nastier varieties.
- Christopher A Carr
That's quite the silliest thing you've said yet, Dr. Ganata...can you tell me why?
- Christopher A Carr
I'm being deliberately silly. Why would there be separate Catholic physics if they can make contributions to the real thing?
- Victor Ganata
"Sorry, didn't mean to sound nasty, Brent. Wasn't a goal." Changed your mind, Christopher? ;)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
T.B. ... No, just responding to circumstances.
- Christopher A Carr
(I'm watching Nirvana's live DVD right now. yup.)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Does that have that touch-up of "Bleach?"
- Christopher A Carr
Victor: a request. would you add me? feel as if we are working from similar pages, at least... :)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Christopher: nope. bought that separately today, too... that's next... procrastinating my nanowrimo.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
I don't know, I suppose I'm a naive fool, but the fact that even the Vatican can admit they're wrong, even if 500 years late, keeps me hopeful :D
- Victor Ganata
I'm pleased, relative to other flavors of Christianity, that HRCC eventually makes concessions to reality. And, if there are two Christian parties, both with some some cute chicks, I'm at the Catholic party. :-)
- Christopher A Carr
ok, now i'm hearing zappa's 'catholic girls' in my head... which is wrong! wrong! ;)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Heh. I understand that sentiment.
- Victor Ganata
I only ever get really curt with people I expect can handle it, and it's what I expect in return if someone finds me ejaculating some politic jibber-jabber.
- Christopher A Carr
It's not really my horse anymore, anyway. I'm just familiar with it. But I do find the way people automatically pit science against religion as if they were mutually exclusive to be sloppy thinking. You end up making untoward assumptions about what another person believes, which is always counterproductive. I'm certainly not a fan of creationism and intelligent design, but to ascribe that trash to people who don't believe in it either is basically demonstrating the same point I was trying to make in the OP.
- Victor Ganata
Christopher: for me, it's not about whether I can 'handle' curtness, or rudeness, but whether i want to tolerate it. I find that it, too, can be counter-productive.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
for the record, i have been enjoying this thread immensely. :)
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Victor: Science and religion *ARE* mutually exclusive. It's YOUR thinking that is sloppy.
- Christopher A Carr
so, after you accept those assertions, I'm going to carry on with X, Y, and Z...
- Christopher A Carr
Philosophy of Science and Philosophy of Mind I vote as mandatory pre-Med bio-undergrad classes.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, supposing that they were mutually exclusive, is there no conception in your philosophy "whereby two opposite passions may blaze together"?
- Melanie Reed
Christopher, We have been able to fertilize ovum with sperm in a petrie dish but have we ever been able to create ovum or sperm itself? There is a premise of first things here no matter where you take this. If there is a story, there was a story teller. If there is a moral law, there was a moral lawgiver. If there is a painting, there was an artist. If there is a program, there was a programmer.
- Melanie Reed
Melanie; You are out of your depth. That complex things exist does not necessarily entail a more complex entity that created them... I'm happy to point this out to someone that won't get their feelings hurt. I don't think that's you.
- Christopher A Carr
All religions are the projections of the hopes, fears, desires, etc. of their human creators. They tell us much more about the human mind than about "God," and in that sense all religions are quite interesting.
- Sean McBride
Another take on religion: religions are instruments of social, political and financial control wielded by self-appointed and self-aggrandizing priesthoods.
- Sean McBride
Christopher, I think it's a problem of demarcation, rather than a direct conflict. Saying religion and science are intrinsically antagonistic is basically saying that physics and metaphysics can't co-exist. It's like saying science and ethics/morality are opposite forces. As far as I can tell there's nothing in the theory of evolution or general relativity that tells me how I should go...
more...
- Victor Ganata
Anyway, until someone demonstrates empiric proof that God does not exist, I'm going to have to answer "I don't know." Insisting that God doesn't exist despite lack of evidence is just as oppressive as the Bible-thumper insisting that the world is 6,000 years old, or that string theory is the grand unifying theory despite the fact that it doesn't make any experimentally testable predictions.
- Victor Ganata
The main problem: "God" is a human concept, subject to infinite definitions and interpretations. Even if one posits that "God" exists, one doesn't really have any meaningful idea of what "God" is. For all we know, "God" may be a malevolent and deceiving entity. (And judging by the extreme chaos and violence which wrack the universe, that might be the first reasonable conclusion one might come to, based on the empirical evidence).
- Sean McBride
Sean is right. And I'll add that Religion is a very clever concept serving a very useful function... giving normal people(believers) the walking stick of "hope" when their minds are crippled by fear***, anxiety, confusion, helplessness etc. (edit: I belief God exists, not as krishna, Jesus or allah or any other gods we worship but as an unseen unknown force within ourselves. I've...
more...
- vijay
Religion is a form of (understandable) self-medication (in the face of adversity, pain and suffering), as well as a tool of social, financial and political control by self-appointed priesthoods. It is also a form of mass hypnosis and mind control.
- Sean McBride
vijay -- note how often throughout history this use of religion as a technique of encouraging group consciousness and solidarity has been used as an instrument of aggressive warfare in the competition among human groups for territory, resources, wealth and power.
- Sean McBride
"Melanie; You are out of your depth." Christopher, we've just met. How do you know what my depth is? :) "That complex things exist does not necessarily entail a more complex entity that created them... I'm happy to point this out to someone that won't get their feelings hurt. I don't think that's you" Christopher, then I am happy to point out that next time you make something that you...
more...
- Melanie Reed
Melanie -- founders of religions, most of which contradict one another in a bewildering variety of ways, are human beings, just like you and me. They all make special claims based on alleged divine inspiration. One has to decide whether you value your own judgment and insights over theirs. I haven't encountered a religionist yet whose judgment and insights I value over my own, although some of them have contributed to my store of knowledge.
- Sean McBride
Christopher: Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. I took two quarters of philosophy of science as a freshman at Caltech, have read extensively in cognitive science, have a PhD in math from Berkeley, and am now working there as a research specialist in evolutionary genomics. On what basis would you assert that my thinking is sloppy?
- Ruchira S. Datta
What's sloppy is making broad generalizations based on your very limited experience of people from a small sampling of religions.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Ruchira -- the Bible is overflowing with bad science, wrong science -- mistaken notions about causality based on childish superstitions. Religion has an impressive track record of opposing science and persecuting scientists (Galileo comes to mind). Which advances in scientific knowledge were powered by religion?
- Sean McBride
Little thing called relativity Sean? You may have heard of it.
- Matthew DeVries
Sean - I did not say anything about the Bible. Did you notice what I said about a small sampling of religions? And which advances in scientific knowledge were powered by art? Does that make art and science mutually exclusive?
- Ruchira S. Datta
See "Brian Greene and religion" here: http://viciousmomma.blogspot.com/2007...
- Ruchira S. Datta
I keep wanting to recommend the article "Global Darwinism: Eastern enchantment" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... but unfortunately it's behind a paywall.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Matthew: Actually, Newton saw his elucidation of celestial mechanics as being powered by religion. With Einstein, it's rather questionable.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Great art (as opposed to bad art) achieves its power not by making grandiose ideological claims about the universe, but by capturing sensuous observations about the world. We admire Dante's Divine Comedy not because of its exposition of Roman Catholic doctrine, but because of the beauty of Dante's language. Great art transcends all religious doctrines. Artists have more in common with scientists than do religionists.
- Sean McBride
What did religion have to do with Einstein's greatest scientific achievement?
- Sean McBride
Sean: I suspect Matthew was referring to Einstein's comment "God does not play dice" but many people think that Einstein was just using "God" as a shorthand, not something to take seriously.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Brian Greene: "I think it partly depends on your exact definition of religious. If it means the traditional notion of going to services and some organized religion, then the answer is no. If it means, does it fill me with a sense of awe and wonder about the universe, does it fill me with a sense of how remarkable it is that the pieces of the universe fit together with such logical...
more...
- Sean McBride
Sean: For me both religion and science bring me a sense of wonder. I'm not the only scientist whose investigations have been driven by this sense of wonder.
- Ruchira S. Datta
It's fine if religion expands your sense of wonder about the world, but religious "methods" will not advance scientific discovery. Science has its own rules, and they are quite precise.
- Sean McBride
Sean: Of course they are. All I'm saying is science and religion are not mutually exclusive. You say "Artists have more in common with scientists than do religionists" as if scientists and religionists are two nonintersecting categories, but that is simply false.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Einstein: "A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
- Sean McBride
Sean: I too believe that morality is worldly, not religious. This is also what my religion says.
- Ruchira S. Datta
In general, in my experience, artists are more open-minded, adventurous, pioneering, creative, etc. than religionists. These are not fixed categories, of course. Religion has inspired much great art. But the power of that art springs from artistic genius, not from an attachment to any particular religious doctrine.
- Sean McBride
Sean: Being artistic, being a scientist, being religious are different dimensions of being a human being. You are trying to put all of these things on a single dimensional scale and ordering them with respect to each other. One of the benefits of mathematical thinking is realizing there's no need or justification for doing that.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Sean: There exist religious people who are open-minded, adventurous, pioneering, and creative in their exploration of spirituality. There are others who are not. I've met both (even within my own religion). This is just what one would expect if Openness (one of the Big Five personality traits) is an orthogonal dimension to being religious.
- Ruchira S. Datta
I agree with you that there are many religious people who possess all those good traits, but there is little connection between religious fervor and artistic and scientific achievement. Religiosity on the one hand, and artistic and scientific genius on the other, are separate human faculties. And in quite a few cases, religiosity has been the enemy of artistic and scientific...
more...
- Sean McBride
Sean: It looks like we're coming to agreement. I would only add that the false idea that science and religion are mutually exclusive is *also* an enemy of scientific achievement.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Sean: Insofar as religion is a source of mental strength, it can help foster achievement of any kind. But of course it is not always such a source, nor the only such source.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Religion sometimes seems to be valuable for crystallizing and organizing intuitions and intimations about the universe, some of which can be later developed into substantive knowledge by the application of reason and scientific method.
- Sean McBride
Sean: You are still trying to order things which do not need to be ordered.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Feynman: "We must, incidentally make it clear from the beginning that if a thing is not a science, it is not necessarily bad. For example, love is not a science. So, if something is said not to be a science it does not mean that there is something wrong with it; it just means that it is not a science." http://books.google.com/books...
- Ruchira S. Datta
Sean: In particular, religion is very personal. The need for replicability and matching of cases with controls makes science a different domain.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Of course: things that are not science are not necessarily bad; they may be very good. But they are not science. That is all.
- Sean McBride
Religion is very personal; but many religionists (not all) try to enforce their unprovable beliefs on their neighbors and on the world at large. Thus history in great part is the chronicle of religious wars, fought in many cases over absurd doctrines.
- Sean McBride
"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." (Albert Einstein, Letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946) (I would have used the expression "anthropocentric projection.")
- Sean McBride
Sean: I agree that enforcing unprovable beliefs is destructive. Making fundamentalist materialism the dogma of scientific culture is more subtly destructive, as it keeps many good people out of science and in some cases, even from benefitting from science.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Sean: If you're still arguing with Matthew about Einstein, he seems to be gone now.
- Ruchira S. Datta
"Fundamentalist materialism"?
- Eivind
Eivind: Google it. I'm using it as shorthand for the idea that science *requires* atheism, which it doesn't.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Real scientists are not "fundamentalist materialists" -- they simply don't claim to know more than they know within the realm of scientific knowledge. What we don't know vastly exceeds what we know.
- Sean McBride
Sean: Agreed.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Great scientists are usually gifted with powerful imaginations -- they are willing to entertain all kinds of marvelous scenarios that aren't yet provable by science. They are always thinking about the mysterious unknown. In some sense, you could call them non-doctrinal religionists, I suppose.
- Sean McBride
Paul Thagard, director of the Cognitive Science Program at U. Waterloo, talks about this. See e.g. his article "The Passionate Scientist" http://cogsci.uwaterloo.ca/Article...
- Ruchira S. Datta
I googled it, Ruchira. "Fundamentalist", it seems, is just thrown in there to make sure people understand it's a bad thing and not the "moderate materialism"?
- Eivind
Eivind: "Fundamentalist" as in "intolerant of other views".
- Ruchira S. Datta
I think that is a misuse of the word, but an increasingly popular one.
- Eivind
Eivind: Well, originally the word only applied to evangelical Christians. By that usage, there can be no such thing as an Islamic fundamentalist, by definition.
- Ruchira S. Datta
I understand it as a strict adherence to a set of static rules (like holy books). That would be the "fundament" part of the word. What I see is people attaching it to whatever to make it sound negative.
- Eivind
The word "fundamentalist" does seem to have acquired the connotation of being intolerant to criticism and re-interpretation of one's beliefs.
- Victor Ganata
I guess it's possible to be a moderate fundamentalist, then? Nobody likes to be criticized or told what they actually believe :)
- Eivind
Never leave home without _____________ and ____________.
Kol Tregaskes liked this
Keys, ID
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
heat, bail money.
- Derrick
*dials Derrick for a road trip*
- Micah Wittman
magnesium, alkaseltzer
- Melanie Reed
Wallet, mobile phone
- joey
rock, roll
- Joe Silence is not dead
dead, thought that was 'rick, roll' at first
- Micah Wittman
lasers, more lasers
- Mo Kargas
clean underwear and a box of condoms.
- CW™
lol Mo. The only thing I'd add to that would be cold fusion.
- Micah Wittman
duct tape, gum
- John D Reasor
John, and MacGyver.
- Micah Wittman
Wallet, glasses, phone.
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
giraffe, buttocks.
- Mark H
a towel, the Guide.
- Heather
sonic screwdriver, fob watch
- Amber, Random Time Lord
Tina, Derrick
- Glen Campbell
Pants, spare pants. (Fellow brits, I mean trousers of course)
- Slippy "Threadsbane" Lane
a big butt and a smile.
- Mona Nomura
Friendfeed, the FF Night Crew :)
- Micah Wittman
from iPhone
phone, house keys
- Nathalie, Dreamer of FF
Mr Nathalie's answer: me, shadow (as in me and my shadow)
- Nathalie, Dreamer of FF
id and keys
- VAL D.
sunglasses and diet coke
- Holly Rae, FFer
Leaving a breadcrumb trail, and so you can find you're way back.
- Micah Wittman
Please pray for my family, my cousin has just been informed that his cancer is incurable and he has 6 months.
O, Alex, I'm sorry. Chat me up later. I'll be up late.
- Melanie Reed
I'm praying and for all of you.
- Melanie Reed
Other ways to read this feed:
