Meryl K. Evans - Comments

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While the NYT tests their new(ish) revenue model, we were thinking a hybrid solution would work better. What do you all think about changing the rights model for writers?

January 20, 2010 - Comment - Like - Share

Do you mean copyright law? - LisaGemini

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I don't think so. I think it might be in terms of FNASR, electronic, etc. - Jen Nipps

I'm not good at discussing copyright laws. I take it on a case by case basis and keep listening. - Meryl K. Evans

I saw an article the other day that said the Web has killed copyright law, but I didn't keep the link. - LisaGemini

Hi Lydia, Tim and everybody. I'd love to see a day when markup and coding for print and online allow a writer or photographer to preserve, archive and even put behind a paywall all the stories they've ever done. But yes, that would require some renegotiation and change in rights to their work. - Andria Krewson

Not necessarily copyright law in-depth but how your contracts are worded - Lydia Dishman

Specifically, are publishers offering to buy first rights only? Might they pay more for all rights? - Lydia Dishman

Aren't most Web contracts handled on a case by case basis, by the clients? - LisaGemini

Wasn't this tried at one point at the beginning of newspaper archiving and web production, by some freelancers, to the loss of the freelancers? I'm thinking renegotiations happened about 1999 or 2000, and there might have even been some lawsuits. - Andria Krewson

Right. Think of it this way: What if the New York Times or any newspaper became more like Random House, or Simon & Schuster? They'd employ editors and buy rights to only what they wanted to sell. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

They would have to pay me more for all rights. Otherwise, it's not worth it to me. - LisaGemini

A smart freelancer can reprint articles or use portions of stories to spin them into related stories for other publications. - LisaGemini

Lisa: I'm not sure this is as feasible if you're a Web writer like me. Tim Shisler and I had a good conversation about this earlier in the week. The nut is that websites need control over trackback links -- exclusive control -- in order to move up in the search rankings and they need a high search score in order to command decent ad revenue. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Andria: I hadn't heard about that. Can you tell us what went wrong for the freelancers? #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Tim, it's vague in my memory, and I suspect the folks who would remember are newsroom librarians (if any still exist). I believe in my newsroom at The Charlotte Observer, they called and renegotiated contracts with freelancers. Not all, I'm sure, consented, to be archived or put on the web, but then they might not have had continuing work going forward. - Andria Krewson

Here's a timely poll by BlogHer, "Poll: Will You Pay to Read the New York Times Online, Facebook, or Twitter? http://www.blogher.com/poll-wi... - Becky

Going further on this: Why can't the book publishing model extend to all forms of publishing? Why does journalism have to be different? I recognize that it is, but why does it *have* to be? #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Wasn't there something about different media too? For some reason, I think that was photography. But still. Same concept. - Becky

No way did I stump this crowd. You guys are all smarter than I am. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

We had to change all of our photographers' contracts to include the web in addition to print as it wasn't always that way and many resisted at first. - Laurie Meisel

I think the lawsuit was freelancers vs. Vutext, and this might have some hints, though it's later than I expected: http://www.copyrightclassaction.com/ - Andria Krewson

Interesting poll, Becky! I would pay $5 a month to read my local newspaper, the St. Pete Times, online. However, the business model has always been that ads support the paper, not subscriptions. - LisaGemini

Just checked out the poll Becky posted as well, and it is interesting that even with so few votes that 25% selected "none of the above." - Laurie Meisel

Most of us are really hurting financially and can't afford Starbucks coffee any more. - LisaGemini

Is FF being incredibly slow tonight? Or is there ice in my computer too? ;) - Becky

Laurie: You had to change the contracts so that the publication controlled the Web content, right? Or wrong? What we're asking is why do papers or magazines have to also be content owners? Why can't they license, as book publishers do? - Tim Beyers

Tim: Do you know why it's different? - Becky

That makes a lot of sense, Tim. Which is why it hasn't been tried. LOL - LisaGemini

Becky: Which part? (Sorry, I know I'm rambling and FF is slow tonight for some reason.) - Tim Beyers

Tim: It makes sense, especially when most papers or mags haven't been able to monetize that long tail or archives very well. But I wonder if the NYT will try that with topic pages etc. when they do the pay wall..... - Andria Krewson

Why is there a difference ... content owners vs. license? - Becky

Ah, gotcha. The difference is that the writer controls the rights rather than publication. So, were we to use The Times as an example, they'd buy something for me for a specified price and distribution and I'd agree to limit my content accordingly. The Times pays less overall -- I'm not an employee -- and I get the opportunity to do more with what I write. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Isn't that the difference between being an employee & being a freelancer? - Becky

And look at all those damn typos. Sorry 'bout that. I meant, The Times would buy rights *from* me, not for me, as if I were a seven-year-old out for an ice cream. (Sigh.) #editorchat - Tim Beyers

We license images for use. For editorial content that has been ownership so the same article will not appear in a different pub. - Laurie Meisel

Which would give the writer more control over the revenue, and the ability to use something again once the rights expire if that is the way they are sold - Lydia Dishman

Using the NYT as an example has anything been publicized yet on how they are handling content from say freelancers or is this still speculation? - Laurie Meisel

Does the NYT even use freelancers? - LisaGemini

It absolutely is, Becky. But licensing versus ownership saves money for the publisher. Doesn't it? #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Good point, Laurie. We don't know if The Times is going to use a paywall. Really,we could be talking about any paper or magazine and make the same point. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

I know at least one news org. resells the rights to content to other websites. I'd be surprised if the NYT doesn't do the same, so negotiating an exception to their common contract might be difficult, because it would mean articles would have to be coded in a different way so computer feeds wouldn't automatically export them. - Andria Krewson

So that makes extra work for the Webmaster. Would the Times pay her more? - LisaGemini

Lisa, I wouldn't count on it! LOL - Laurie Meisel

On the other hand, I think hiring employee writers because of the need to have control over content might be passe. Content already appears everywhere once its published due to blogs. Or is that too sweeping a statement? Is there an inherent business advantage to maintaining exclusive control over content anywhere but the Web, where backlinks are currency? #editorchat - Tim Beyers

If there is a business advantage, I don't see it yet. - LisaGemini

Andria: I really don't see that as an issue. If the Times wants to license *and* own distribution, put that in the contract and pay for it. The technology for managing contracts is exceptional -- book publishers use it to deal with thousands of authors and dozens of geographies. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

I'm not sure everything appears online ... unless it's stolen. - Becky

you'd be surprised Becky - Lydia Dishman

Becky: Good point. And a lot does get stolen. A source recently told me of a story of mine that was cut and pasted at a blog with no backlink, no credit. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

I found the concept of a piece I did earlier this week - regurgitated as a musing on Associated Content - Lydia Dishman

Tim: I agree, and it's getting better all the time, based on stuff I saw recently at the Science Online 2010 convention, aimed primarily at academic publications. But I would say books and academic archiving and rights management is more advanced than newspapers (I don't know about magazines.). Except, perhaps, at the NYT, or soon at the NYT. - Andria Krewson

With typos! - Lydia Dishman

Yikes, I thought web sites were clamping down on plagiarism. I had no idea it was this bad. - LisaGemini

Copy and images are stolen all the time, sometimes blatantly mentioning the original source and other times just ripping and pasting as Tim mentioned. - Laurie Meisel

No, I'm not surprised at all. I see stolen stuff all the time, even though I don't even read HuffPo anymore. ;) - Becky

LOL about HuffPo. That site is so biased. - LisaGemini

(Laughs at Becky's post.) Well done. - Tim Beyers

This is what happens when you only pay writers $10-20 per article and you don't hire experienced writers who know plagiarism law. - LisaGemini

Of course, most people should know from high school and college not to steal other writers' work. - LisaGemini

So let's get a show of hands before we go to reintros at 9:55 pm. Who thinks the idea of tying content publishers via the ownership model still makes sense? Who thinks it's time we tried licensing? #editorchat - Tim Beyers

I think we should try licensing. - LisaGemini

I'd say licensing is worth a shot at this point. - Lydia Dishman

Actually, what a lot of it is? Sites that make money off ad revenue / hits / clicks / whathaveyou but do NOT pay for content. They steal it. Then make money off the stolen content. They tweet "breaking news," etc. - Becky

Ditto, licensing. - Becky

I agree, Becky. We keep seeing the same stories and mistakes over and over. - LisaGemini

Now that I have a better comprehension, I would go with trying licensing. - Laurie Meisel

Who will write the contracts? - Becky

Keep going with your thoughts on ownership vs. licensing. And here's your killjoy warning: Two minutes to reintros, which will be posted above. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Licensing, perhaps even for staffers. Or get rid of all staffers, have everyone freelance but let them sell their creations everywhere (and for some newspapers, we're not far away from that model now.) - Andria Krewson

I'm wondering if we want to continue on this topic next week with a guest if we can get one. Any editors or publishers in particular you'd like us to try and nab for an #editorchat? - Tim Beyers

Thanks for fleshing it out -- licensing sounds like a possibility. - Meryl K. Evans

Contracts should be an opportunity for negotiation. Could be virtual or in person, but that is where a good talk could add to the business model by setting up parameters, editorial expectations (read: conflict of interest details) etc. - Lydia Dishman

Could we have David Pogue as a guest? (I'm only half joking.) He's a NYT staffer, but makes lots on the side. - Andria Krewson

Tim: Since licensing is more of a publishing model, should one of the guests be someone in that biz? - Becky

Andria: We can always ask. Becky: We can also try one of the publishing houses. We tried to get two key former staffers from Editor & Publisher for tonight, but no luck. Yet. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Definitely a hot topic and relevant as more publications are adopting the paywall. I would love to see where this goes. - Laurie Meisel

Head up top for reintros. Coming next. - Tim Beyers

E&P would be good. And, hey, their schedules should be freed up. OUCH. My bad. - Becky

Actually, Becky, they are probably desperate to find new gigs. Too busy for us! - LisaGemini

Heading to bed. Great day and another great conversation. Thanks, y'all! - Meryl K. Evans

Sneaking in one more, a link about archiving at the Public Library of Science: http://tinyurl.com/yemf6rp ...These folks are working on a way to code article authors, and then RANK the quality of the authors, so that universities etc. can judge how wonderful the authors are with ONE number. Imagine when that tech. filters out to other publishing venues, or to Google. And imagine being able to claim all your work with one piece of code. - Andria Krewson

Post for reintros now up at the top of your screen. Tell us who you are and give us a link. - Tim Beyers

Andria, thanks for the link. Will review it after this wraps. - Laurie Meisel

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Good evening everyone and welcome to another edition of #editorchat. Please introduce yourselves as you join.

January 20, 2010 - Comment - Like - Share

Rockin'! Content maven aka writer @merylkevans on Twitter, meryl.net on ehome and multitasking as I'm overloaded with lots of sweet wishes. - Meryl K. Evans

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Tim Beyers, your #editorchat co-host, Motley Fool tech contributor and freelance writer covering business, tech, and culture. Simulcast edition for me tonight -- cross-posting comments to Twitter. - Tim Beyers

Aloha! Charles Bohannan / @wordful here on the Big Island of Hawaii. Double-timing it with my day job until Daylight Savings Time starts back up - Charles

Hi, all! Lisa Cunningham, a freelance writer and editor in Tampa, FL here. Sipping my wine as we chat. - LisaGemini

Howdy, howdy! Checking in from Icy Iowa. I'm a freelance journalist, and my blog is Deep Muck Big Rake. I'm @BeckyDMBR on Twitter. - Becky

Hey, all! Jen (@JenNipps on twitter), freelance writer in southern Oklahoma specializing in creativity, writing, health, and plus-size issues. DEVOTED TO CREATING, a book of devotions, will be out soon. - Jen Nipps

Do I dare tell Becky it got up to 70 yesterday in Dallas? Nah... oops, did I say that out loud? - Meryl K. Evans

Meryl, Charles, Becky, Jen, good to see you all. Check out the blog if you haven't yet -- all the questions at www.editorchat.net #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM

I'm headed over there now, Tim. Had to go to Ft. Smith, which is where I am tonight, because an aunt's in the hospital. First chance to look at the site. - Jen Nipps

Ice-breaker question for the curious cat in me: Who's planning on subscribing to the New York Times' Web edition if some sort of paywall goes up, as has been reported? #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM

Doesn't NYT already charge for online content? No, wait. They did. Then they didn't. Right? I can't keep up. - Becky

You got me, Becky. Last I knew, they charged. I honestly don't check very often. - Jen Nipps

Precisely, Becky. Not exactly sure when the Times stopped charging for online content, but the original experiment failed. This would be round 2 #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM

Yeah, MKE. I need a winter home somewhere else. :) - Becky

I wouldn't subscribe to the NYT site, but I would the Wall St. Journal's if and only if it were reasonable. - LisaGemini

Glad I'm not the only one confused... charged? No charge? Thanks, Becky and Jenn. So obviously, I am not a paying member and I don't plan on it. - Meryl K. Evans

As a belated aside, in my intro, I should have also said if you want to follow my fiction endeavors, I'm also kat O'Reilly (@authorkoreilly) on Twitter. - Jen Nipps

I forgot to say I'm @LisaGemini on Twitter (Lisa Cunningham) and I only write non-fiction. - LisaGemini

I feel like I ought to pay, to keep my compatriots employed - Lydia Dishman

Keep going on intros while I put up the rules. Tweeps: you can see the full edition of #editorchat at http://freindfeed.com/editorc... - Tim Beyers from IM

I know what you mean, Lydia. I'm honestly not opposed to paying, if I can afford to, which for the most part, I haven't been able to. - Jen Nipps

My issue is why did it take newspapers so long to change their business model? The Internet has been around since, what? 1995? - LisaGemini

okay how about this "WSJ has all details of Apple tablet. If you want to read it & be informed, you'll have to pay. Cool. http://bit.ly/8Tli8Q" - Lydia Dishman

So how did the WSJ get that scoop? Marvelous! - LisaGemini

Dee Stewart. Editor. Atlanta various christian and african american publications. hello - dee

Hi, Dee! How's beautiful Atlanta? - LisaGemini

Glad you could make it, Dee. We're just getting started. Tonight we're talking about the impact of charging for Web content #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM

What works for NYT won't work for all. - Meryl K. Evans

I'm a little late and may be in and out tonight...I'm publisher and editor of Terracotta Typewriter (tctype.com) - matt lubin

Hi all - Laurie Meisel, web producer for McGraw-Hill's Architectural Record. First time trying friendfeed, too. - Laurie Meisel

welcome all let's move up one box for the first question - Lydia Dishman

Hi all. Andria Krewson in Charlotte, freelance and consulting. @underoak on Twitter. Just dropping by quickly. - Andria Krewson

Good #editorchat crowd tonight. Thanks for coming, Laurie, Matt, and Andria. First question coming. - Tim Beyers

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

Marc said something worth exploring: "I really do wonder if there is a public demand for better #journalism." Is there now? How would you, if you were editor of a major newspaper or magazine, stoke demand? #editorchat

January 6, 2010 - Comment - Like - Share

You know, I'm not even sure I'd know where to start.... - Jennifer Willis

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NYT and WSJ still thrive (ethics and personnel problems aside) and they are known for good journalism practices. - Meryl K. Evans

My take is that it's content based. If you provide better content, the readers learn that there is better, and what is sub-par. This should evolve over time to a more educated readership on what passes for journalism and what passes for...well, junk. - Jordana Megonigal

When I see demand for sites like TMZ.com increase enough that they decide to eventually add a TMZ Sports section, I honestly have to wonder. - Marc Hertz

If you let public demand dictate your content, you'll probably end up with something like a tabloid more often than not. - Jennifer Willis

Public broadcasting might not be a bad model to consider, as far as content is concerned. - Jennifer Willis

I'd start by examining everything. One thing that would immediately come under the microscope: the principle of detachment. Certainly it's important for investigations, but should a business reporter always be prohibited from buying stocks? - Tim Beyers

But I'd argue that the two have co-existed for a long time. People have an insatiable appetite for both the tabloid and the serious paper. Now it is just online. - Lydia Dishman

Because we're at information overload these days, it seems like stories have to stand out, by being weird, goofy, sensational, celeb related, etc. - Marc Hertz

As sad as it is, I think Jennifer is dead-on. Content for content's sake, and revenue be damned. (GASP_ - Jordana Megonigal

Agreed, Lydia. This goes back to my business model comment. The medium is far less important than the model. - Tim Beyers

That demand for better content is there, but it's not "mass." As long as news web sites are judging their success by unique visitors instead of by engaged visitors, they'll produce junk. But many are craving better. I like how columnist Tommy Tomlinson is addressing the issue in a blog for The Charlotte Observer: http://bit.ly/4TlZiN - Andria Krewson

Gasp indeed, then we'll all be working for free ;-) - Lydia Dishman

Lydia: And that's different from today how...? ;) - Jennifer Willis

Some of us are already pretty much working for free. :) LOL - Jordana Megonigal

No, no, for "exposure." - Andria Krewson

Maybe it's time to ask what readers get from great journalism? Is "informed" the only answer? - Tim Beyers

As a young journalist who has many young friends who I see consume media it comes down to three things.1) Stop telling me your product is going to die unless I become engaged and see the value, which I don't see. 2) Egos have run amuck. 3) Realize just because it says New York Times I may not necessarily care. - it's hard for me to swallow when I hear this. Especially from my peers. - Tim Shisler

Who was it here who talked about PR branding of journalism. I'm shuddering as I say that, but I think that's getting close to what's needed. An education campaign, if you will. And, yes, I'll mention media literacy again. Someone needs to report on TMZ actually GETS its information, who it pays for it and what its "ethics" are. - Becky

Readers should not only be informed by a story. They should also, hopefully, be emotionally affected and maybe even prone to action. - Marc Hertz

Tim S.: My focus group is my daughter, age almost 20. She gets sad when her fashion magazines get skinny. She gets excited when hearing about a subscription deal to "The Economist." So I have hope. For mags. at least. And books. - Andria Krewson

Now is the time to work for free. But things will turn around soon. - Charles

Ah, yes. Books. I love books. :) - Jennifer Willis

So good to hear, Andria. I have many friends who disagree with those three statements, but I have even more friends who won't pay for any media at all sans cable and HBO - Tim Shisler

I would love love love to hear TMZ people and the like talk ethics. - Marc Hertz

Jennifer: It is not different, that was my point. Rags and great newspapers have been side-by-side for a long time - Lydia Dishman

Lydia -- you couldn't have one without the other, right? - Charles

Right, Marc. Great journalism is tough. It has to impact something of intrinsic or tangible value in a storytelling form. Not easy, unless you're writing for the business section. Example: were I to lay out the details of a scam of a stock via links to dirty laundry buried in SEC filings, you can immediately sell or short. That's a tangible delivery of value. - Tim Beyers

And, Tim S., that's a big problem right there: People have become accustomed to getting all their information/news/entertainment for free. They feel entitled. Unfortunately, in terms of quality, you generally get what you pay for. - Jennifer Willis

Becky what's so bad with a PR campaign for journalism? Wasn't that already done in a backwards way with All the President's Men? At least that is what inspired me when I first watched it. - Tim Shisler

Lydia: I was joking about the working for free, which too many talented writers are already doing. - Jennifer Willis

Lydia: I do worry that the "serious" real stuff will end up only in the hands of those who can pay dearly, and that those who can't pay won't be informed. That's what worries me. How will low income residents learn about the rezoning that will put an asphalt factory in their 'hood? How will they know the nonprofit head is skimming off hundreds of thousands of dollars from the programs that help feed their families? If only the wealthy can afford serious journalism, we have a civics problem. - Andria Krewson

Jennifer: oh gosh, I know! That is my crusade, to get good writers to stop giving away their time and talent. - Lydia Dishman

Have to pop out to walk the dog.... - Jennifer Willis

But journalism is about more than the sale, Davis. You can't reasonably investigate anyone or anything without holding yourself to a high standard. - Tim Beyers

Right on Jennifer, but doesn't it go the same way when editors expect freelancers to write for free or next to nothing? - Tim Shisler

Tim: Oh, I'm just an old school news-ed journalist. We don't do PR. We question it. :) - Becky

"That is my crusade, to get good writers to stop giving away their time and talent." Can we please all agree that this should be OUR crusade, every one of us? - Tim Beyers

Andria, you are right, it is the same with environmental and health issues. A state senator I interviewed called it the new civil rights issue of the millenium. - Lydia Dishman

Lydia: I like that senator. - Andria Krewson

Davis: I disagree. Ethical journalism does exist, but if your argument is that there will always be an imperfect Fourth Estate and what's really needed is better disclosure, then I'm with you all the way. - Tim Beyers

Tim -- yes, and also how Editors can cultivate effective relationships with those good writers. - Charles

Very true, Tim. And another problem is storytelling typically takes time, i.e. longer pieces, that people need to invest in, but the Internet teaches us that less is more, because people don't want (or, moreso have the time) to devote to reading. When I'm reading a piece and I actually manage to scroll down, then see there are multiple pages, I've been known to get antsy, so I can imagine what the average reader might do. - Marc Hertz

Davis: That's why I prefer Tim's term, detached, or mine, disinterested. Because, yes, everyone has opinions and biases. But not everyone has an interest, meaning they don't have a conflict of interest. - Becky

Yes, Tim & Lydia. It's OUR crusade. - Becky

That may be why something like what McSweeney's did with the SF Panorama (http://www.mcsweeneys.net/SFPanor...) will need to happen more often to draw in interested readers. - Marc Hertz

Tim B.: I sat trying to learn how to write good query letters last night and force myself to increase my asking price. It doesn't come naturally. Lydia Dishman and successful freelancers are gods and goddesses. I'm just glad to have some good role models. But I will set rates differently for different clients... - Andria Krewson

And to quote another graduate from a legacy news organization: "Bleed the beast." Ask for what you know they can afford, even though they start by asking for something for free. - Andria Krewson

I'm hoping that something like the SF Panorama increases demand for better writing, storytelling, etc., when it comes to journalism. That may be one way editors can create demand. Thinking outside the box and taking a chance. - Marc Hertz

Wow I'd love to stick around, this is some great conversation, but I have to get out of the house and run some hills. Thanks for all the thoughts, Becky, Marc, Tim, etc. I'll try to catch next weeks. Thanks for letting me participate and hope everyone has a good beer in their hands right now. - Tim Shisler

That's the right way to go, Andria. There's no substitute for querying frequently and arguing for fair value. It's in the best interests of your clients to get great content that draws readers, which means it's also in their interest to pay you enough to do the job. - Tim Beyers

Thanks, Tim. Take care. - Tim Beyers

Good night, Tim! - Becky

Good night, Tim. - Marc Hertz

Thanks, Tim for your comments. - Charles

A brief reminder: seven minutes before we get to reintroductions. Above, I'm posting about the new blog. - Tim Beyers

Good night Tim - and for the record, it's Firefly! - Lydia Dishman

(Firefly will send presents to those who tweet often about their product. But that wouldn't be ethical, and the FTC might come and get you.) Just good to know. - Andria Krewson

CJR & news literacy: http://www.thenewsliteracyproject.org/blog... Now I need to try to find the original article. - Becky

Just caught up on your thorough and well-rounded comments -- I have nothing to add except it's time to say good night to the screen. - Meryl K. Evans

And I can't believe it's already almost 7pm (on the West Coast, that is). - Marc Hertz

Back at my desk now.... to say that now I have to log off for the night. Thanks for another great discussion, everyone! - Jennifer Willis

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Tonight we are talking education. Tomorrow’s journalists are training not just at J-schools, but on the Web, in blogs. #editorchat

January 6, 2010 - Comment - Like - Share

What do you think the ratio is of j-school vs. web vs. both? Or is that even relevant? - Jen Nipps

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Given the New York Times firing 3 freelancers over ethics issues - we wonder if it’s naive to think better guidelines and open communication are enough to teach writers about conflict of interest. - Lydia Dishman

How much "training" can one get by blogging? If we're talking about personal blogs that aren't part of any supervised network, then these bloggers probably aren't getting a lot of constructive, editorial feedback. - Jennifer Willis

Companies / managers (not just editors and publishers) should have a checklist in place to ensure new employee (no matter education) knows all the ethics-related issues. - Meryl K. Evans

Not sure what the ratio is Jen. But a good question! - Lydia Dishman

Personally, I would never consider a blog as training ground for any kind of journalism except perhaps editorial. lol. But perhaps that's just me. - Jen Nipps

That's a good point, Meryl. Each publication should have handy its own guidelines, in general, but a clearly outlined (and fair) ethics policy is a good idea, too. - Jennifer Willis

Are checklists and check-ins enough. Going to post another link here in a moment about freelance pay, which largely stinks. In-house pay is just as bad. Here's my point: Has the industry, in its stiffing of writers, helped foster these ethical conflicts? - Tim Beyers

It is a good question, Jen. Can't imagine ever getting an answer with new blogs starting and blogs getting abandoned daily. I agree with with Jen and Jen that blogging is not a good way to get training. You write... no one is there to tell you what you need to fix. - Meryl K. Evans

I can understand why pubs don't have their own ethics policies, though. They (IMO, rightly) assume that writers/journs have a basic understanding of professional ethics. - Jen Nipps

Of course, I'm not sure how much "training" I received, either. I'm a good writer because my prep school demanded that of me. But other than academic papers in prep and at university.... I didn't go to journalism school. - Jennifer Willis

One of my pubs has excellent guidelines that even cover that if you come across or mention X, Y, Z companies -- to talk to editor first -- because of conflict of interest (pub had partnerships with them). - Meryl K. Evans

I loved this note and question from ljthornton on Twitter today: Reporters & designers may edit copy in the new Star Tribune reorg ..."So will editing profs be training more students if more in newsroom are expected to have editing skills?".... - Andria Krewson

Then again, at one point I wrote for a site called WebSeed. (I don't think they're around anymore, but I could be wrong.) I wrote an article about the apparent absence of a Code of Ethics for freelance writers. The closest I could come up with was the ASJA Code. - Jen Nipps

Here's the piece, from L.A. Times media columnist James Rainey: http://www.latimes.com/enterta... - Tim Beyers

@Tim As a travel writer who's pay ranges form more than a dollar a word to less than 5 cents the ability for me to travel more than ten miles from my house becomes hard when it's on my own dime. I'm forced to cover Colorado mainly (I know not too rough) but still it's a catch 22 - Tim Shisler

So I think that might be where some of the muddying of the waters comes from. - Jen Nipps

I read that this morning, Tim. Saddened me, but that's what's happening these days with the Web. Content farms. - Marc Hertz

Pretty much every writer I know read that L.A. Times story today. Pretty disheartening. - Jennifer Willis

Tim: On ethics, I think low pay of staffers and freelancers has led those folks to seek more sources of income, thus increasing the chance of ethical dilemmas. I know at least one paper that considered relaxing standards of the outside work staffers could take when the paper cut salaries. - Andria Krewson

(It's still loading for me.) - Jen Nipps

Well, Lydia, speaking for myself and not The NYT, I think it's safe to say we're all becoming more aware of ethics and conflict-of-interest issues. [Someone at the door.] - Thomas Feyer

Let me defend web content farms briefly: Do you or someone you know need editing feedback? Discipline in writing to length, staying on topic or working on SEO writing? Try out Demand Studios. You won't make much money there, but you can learn. - Andria Krewson

Too many publications expect freelancers to behave as staffers, without offering the same benefits -- even though freelancers still need to cover expenses, travel, etc. to report on the same stories. - Jennifer Willis

Tim, Marc -- I hesitate to blame the Web, because I think there are excellent business models that exist mostly via the Web. My main client, The Motley Fool, is the best example I can think of but there are others. BNET is one, CNET another. - Tim Beyers

I know locally, many of the pubs lifted the non-compete for freelancers. BNET does have extensive rules for freelancers. - Lydia Dishman

With the day job, I had not seen that LA Times story and with my current connection, it's not loading. - Jen Nipps

Mostly, I blame bad business models for the state of the publishing industry. Not enough of us saw the disruption coming, including yours truly. - Tim Beyers

Maybe not "bad" business models, but certainly outdated. - Jennifer Willis

I don't think anyone saw it coming Tim. - Lydia Dishman

Perhaps both bad and outdated. - Jen Nipps

Or misinformed instead of "bad." - Jen Nipps

It feels like ethics, etc., get loosened in people's minds because they're scrambling just to make ends meet in this economy. And also, since blogging is such a (relatively) new part of journalism, the rules either haven't been written as strictly or sunk in as firmly. - Marc Hertz

Tim -- not sure I fully blame the web. My rich CA friends maybe... but in all seriousness, I've done some good online work and got paid decently so it's not all completely bad. - Tim Shisler

Back to the question at hand. If the pay stinks, there's less incentive for young writers to make a point of going to J-school and learning the trade. And if that's true, won't we see a flood of writers who neither (a) know, or (b) care for the old maxims of journalism? - Tim Beyers

(And it finally loaded.) - Jen Nipps

Ethics have been sliding for years. - Becky

Agreed, Tim. - Tim Beyers

Some have made the case that orgs like the NYT are exploiting freelancers by getting the freelancers' research funded by someone else, often an educational institution. And indeed, Pogue at the NYT says his outside engagements are all educational or nonprofit institutions, so essentially they could be seen as subsidizing his work at the NYT. Interesting thought. - Andria Krewson

Tim, that's definitely a good point. There are times I wish I had gone to a j-school. Yes, even now, but if I were in school and deciding on which way to go, I likely wouldn't go the j-school route. (I'm one of those who would research what I thought I might want to do.) - Jen Nipps

I did some editing recently for a business blog, and the quality of material was really disconcerting. Writers who didn't know how to research, cite sources, etc. I don't think they really cared, either. - Jennifer Willis

Sorry, have to run -- have to pick up medicine for my daughter. Will come back if I can; this is a fascinating discussion. - Thomas Feyer

Best of luck, Tom. - Tim Beyers

Much like we're seeing a flood of people who simply don't write as well, because all a lot of people feel like they need to do as a blogger is repurpose other stories. And if newspapers continue to fold, there may be less impetus to develop journalistic skills at all. - Marc Hertz

Tim, fully agree on the J-school comment. I'm also noticing that editors are so overworked and have so little budget it's a me, me, me, give, give, give type of world I'm living in. As a freelancer I seem to have zero leverage right now, which might make some frustrated and wander with their ethics. - Tim Shisler

Not with the pick-up. I meant, "hope your daughter gets better." (See what I get for letting my brain get ahead of my fingertips?) - Tim Beyers

That's a good point, Marc... albeit a sad one. - Meryl K. Evans

Tim B.: A flood of writers who don't care about the old maxims? Maybe. But I think also we'll just see a flood of information from press releases or event calendars, stuff that takes no real reporting, wrapped by ads. It's happening in hyperlocal world. - Andria Krewson

That's a scary scenario, Marc, but I can't disagree with it. - Jen Nipps

How does Politico work? They seem to be flourishing in these times. - Charles

Agree with Andria. We're already seeing that, unfortunately. - Jennifer Willis

I'm gonna sound old & cranky, but I say things started going downhill when j-schools turned into "communications" schools. It just set things up for the unraveling we're seeing today. - Becky

Becky: I don't think that's an old and cranky comment at all. I went to a communications school and saw the co-mingling firsthand. (Syracuse, for the record.) - Tim Beyers

Of course, I'm still waiting for audiences to wise up and stop accepting "reality TV" as genuine programming. I'm wondering if what we're seeing in journalism is similar -- the rise of citizen reporters, content aggregators, etc. - Jennifer Willis

I don't think that sounds old and cranky, Becky. I think you're probably more right than you think. - Jen Nipps

Tim: I agree. An editor I know is doing, oh, 10 jobs and still taking required furloughs. Quality suffers tremendously. - Becky

Jennifer, I agree about the reality TV junk. I think the citizen reporters thing *is* definitely related. - Jen Nipps

My school (Fordham) was both Communications and J. But still, I agree with Tim Shisler, no leverage and people do what they have to to earn their daily bread. - Lydia Dishman

Jen: So then we're caught in a loop, or a descending spiral.... If there's no public demand for better journalism, can we really foist it on them? (And who would pay us to do that?) - Jennifer Willis

So if we accept that all this is true -- that the pay stinks and isn't coming back, and that writers will do whatever they must to earn their daily bread -- then aren't we, by design, headed for a form of new "new" journalism that is anything but detached. The rise of citizen journalist, as Jen said? - Tim Beyers

I think media literacy is key. At all levels. For all ages. - Becky

I really do wonder if there is a public demand for better journalism. It's a great point. - Marc Hertz

I think we're up to a new new new journalism, at this point. ;) - Jennifer Willis

I don't think some people realize there IS better journalism. - Becky

I'll admit that there have been times as a young freelancer I've thought 'this would be so much easier if...' but thankfully I've always caught myself. The internet has proven if you slip up, you're bound to get caught at some point and I'm too young to be taking chances and it's just not worth it. So I drink cheap beer. - Tim Shisler

I think the pay will come back, but it will take time. - Jen Nipps

Marc, I honestly don't know that too many people realize what has been lost in journalism. - Jennifer Willis

I'm with Becky. People won't realize what they are missing until it's gone. Journalism (true journalism) is one of those things - Jordana Megonigal

Jennifer, we can't foist it on them, of course. But...I think after a while, people will actually want it again and it will become back in demand. I don't have the slightest idea how long that will take,though. - Jen Nipps

Welcome back, Jordana. Good to see you here. - Tim Beyers

Marc, I've been saying this since I was in college. Media needs a new PR team and to rebrand it's message. Until then, the value statement remains low for my generation. (under 30) - Tim Shisler

Jen, hopefully that will happen before I'm forced to retire and re-train for another industry. ;) - Jennifer Willis

thanks, Tim. Bucking maternity leave to join in... :) - Jordana Megonigal

Can't remember if I talked about this here before, but did anyone see an article about a news organization teaching media literacy in schools? It was uncomfortably close to "activism" but different because it was education. Not a whole lot of $$$ for it. Was it NYT? I honestly can't remember now. But the premise was very interesting. - Becky

Don't remember seeing that, Becky, but we should find it. - Tim Beyers

I think I read it in CJR, but I haven't been able to find it again. - Becky

At this rate we're going, a lot of what we read will sound close to tabloid journalism... and not all of us like that (a few must to keep those tabloids in business). - Meryl K. Evans

Becky, I'd definitely be interested in hearing more about that. When I was in high school, several classes required us to subscribe to TIME, US News & World Report, and the like. It felt like a pain at the time, but now I realize what a blessing that was. - Jennifer Willis

Citizen journalism leaves me suspicious at best. Sites like Allvoices.com pay, for instance, $250 per 100,000 pageviews (within 15 days of publication). Low pay and the seeming demand for sensational and/or celebrity-driven "news" to drive traffic. - Marc Hertz

That's the one thing that media literacy teaches ... to question the source of information. So many readers don't. It's a new version of, "If it's in the newspaper, it must be true." - Becky

Many -- though not all -- citizen journalists don't understand basic practices like fact-checking. - Jennifer Willis

Nor do they want to. - Jen Nipps

When kids are learning to write research papers, are they still taught to get a fact from three different sources to verify before using it? - Jennifer Willis

I think that's an important job for journalism in the future ... to teach media literacy (which includes accountability, transparency, ethics, etc.). - Becky

Can't tell you how many times I came across a fact that sounded real... yet, when I tried to look for a valid source or a study to back it up -- I came up empty. - Meryl K. Evans

Yep, Jennifer. Most times it's 2 web and one book and no wikipedia, but turnitin.com has proven that to be void for the most part. - Tim Shisler

Of course today with the internet, the three-source rule is problematic, when you could have three online sources that are all simply referencing each other's bad information. - Jennifer Willis

The immediacy of blogging and the need to get on the trend wave before it peters out discourages fact-checking or anything else that delays posting. - Marc Hertz

Depends on the teacher, I think. When my sister was teaching English in high school, she required 2 print sources to each web source. - Jen Nipps

Jen W, yes. They learn better now. In elementary school, my daughter was learning about primary vs. secondary resources. Primary being the person who experienced it (it was history) and secondary being someone else who tells the story. I was pleased. - Meryl K. Evans

Jennifer, I can vouch for the fact that they are, and that they still need to use MLA citations (at least in middle school in Gville, SC - Lydia Dishman

Literacy is a problem, but getting back to the topic and the ethics dilemma, I'm wondering if the principle of detachment is doomed. Blogging is never detached, nor are bloggers. Teen bloggers are the next generation's reporters. - Tim Beyers

Tim B. said: "Aren't we, by design, headed for a form of new "new" journalism that is anything but detached. The rise of citizen journalist, as Jen said?" Perhaps, if there is little to no pay attached to covering something, we'll have to count on interested, passionate citizen journalists. But perhaps there's a way to teach them that trying to report in a balanced and fair way will give them more credibility with their audience and with their sources. - Andria Krewson

And learning bad habits they won't want to unlearn later on. - Jen Nipps

I helped teach a research methods class -- which helps grad students learn how to write a thesis -- and they required AP Style as well as a diversity of resources. If a student had too many from one resource, we'd tell 'em to get others. - Meryl K. Evans

...CONT....That hope motivated me to put a proposal to the Knight News Challenge (self promotion, I'm afraid, earlier than I had meant to do it): Proposal here: http://bit.ly/8wPbSr - Andria Krewson

Andria - that's a pretty lucid observation and not without merit. I believe being an Editor is quite valuable these days - Charles

Detached is a good term. Better than unbiased. I also like disinterested. Goes well with the whole conflict-of-interest thing. - Becky

Re: sources and citations (in other words, links to primary sources.) Academia and the science bloggers have much to teach us old, reinventing journalists, whether still at legacy news organizations or now independent. From a science blogger: http://bit.ly/71hQIy - Andria Krewson

... more so than a writer. - Charles

I would actually agree with that, Charles. - Jen Nipps

Are bloggers set up to fail on the ethics front? Writing for several different blogs for next to nothing leaves little time/incentive to spend extra time to fact check something that is on the homepage for less than an hour. Just a thought. - Tim Shisler

Yeah, Tim, but homepage for an hour, cyberspace for eternity. :) - Jordana Megonigal

And a good one Tim - blogging is not set up to be anything but quick takes - Lydia Dishman

Charles: I have a neighbor, actually, who calls herself a "neighborhood activist," who tries very hard to write for the 'hood newsletter objectively about zoning and development. She's a photo freelancer, with a journalistic bent, having worked at the local paper years ago. And she's trained in facilitating discussions among passionate folks. It seems to carry over. - Andria Krewson

New question posted, thanks to Marc for the idea. Scroll above to post your comments. - Tim Beyers

Totally agree Jordana. Sadly the consequences don't come out sometimes though for quite a while. - Tim Shisler

I've actually got to duck out for puppy duty. I'll try to pop back in. - Jen Nipps

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Good evening and welcome to #editorchat 2010. Please introduce yourselves as you join :)

January 6, 2010 - Comment - Like - Share

I am your co-host, Lydia Dishman, independent journalist for a variety of print and web publications. - Lydia Dishman

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Hi! Hi! Hi! HNY!!! - Meryl K. Evans

Hello! I'm Jennifer Willis, freelance journalist in Portland, Oregon, specializing in topics related to sustainability, spirituality/religion and health. I write for local, national and international print and online publications. - Jennifer Willis

Yahoo! I made it! I wasn't sure if my connection would let me. Haven't tried it on broadband before. - Jen Nipps

Hey, long time, no chat! Becky here from frozen & freezing Iowa in yet ANOTHER winter storm. Whee. - Becky

Posted too early. Oops! Jen Nipps, freelance writer in south-central Oklahoma writing about creativity, writing, health, and plus-size issues. A book of devotions, DEVOTED TO CREATING, should be out soon. More details as I get them. - Jen Nipps

Hey everyone. It's been a while. Marc Hertz, freelance writer/editor/blogger in the San Francisco Bay Area. My main gig is as an editor and blogger at Tonic.com. - Marc Hertz

Jen Nipps, that sounds like a great book! Need a reviewer? ;) - Jennifer Willis

Thrilled to be back. Tim Beyers, your other co-host here. Just celebrated my sixth year as a Motley Fool contributor and am also freelancing for a new business book from American Express. Debut issue due this month. - Tim Beyers

Content maven aka writer who focuses on tech, business and writing. @merylkevans on Twitter and from Plano, TX, where we will see single digit wind chill in the next day or so. - Meryl K. Evans

Tim: Happy anniversary & congrats! - Becky

Jennifer, quite possibly!! I'm @jennipps on Twitter. DM me & we can talk about it. :) - Jen Nipps

For the record: 8 degrees and snowing here in the Rockies. No wind chill. Yet. - Tim Beyers

Congrats, Tim! - Jen Nipps

Thanks, Becky and Jen. To risk sounding like Paul Simon, I'm still digging it after all these years. - Tim Beyers

Congrats, Tim. And by the way, @mhertz on Twitter. - Marc Hertz

Mazel tov on all that excitement, Tim! - Meryl K. Evans

You should all come visit me in the Pacific Northwest! It's been in the mid-40s here of late. But it's wet. Then again, it's always wet here.... - Jennifer Willis

Thanks, Marc and Meryl. Glad you both could make it. - Tim Beyers

Congratulations, Tim! That's excellent! - Jennifer Willis

Tom Feyer, letters editor of The New York Times. Back in frozen New York after two weeks' vacation in chilly Florida. - Thomas Feyer

Right now, it's still in the upper 30s, but it's supposed to drop rapidly & be in the single digits by morning with sub-zero wind chills. - Jen Nipps

Welcome back, Tom, and thanks, Jennifer. I appreciate the kind words. - Tim Beyers

Hi all. Andria Krewson from Charlotte, freelancer, consultant, experienced journalist reinventing. Interested in what bloggers can teach journos and vice versa. @underoak on Twitter. - Andria Krewson

Hi, Andrea. - Jen Nipps

Charles Bohannan here in Honolulu, Hawaii: very happy to be back here at Editorchat...and congratulations, Tim! - Charles

Jen: Just "followed" you in Twitter. You can find me @jenwillis. - Jennifer Willis

Welcome, Andria, and thanks, Charles. Glad you both could make it. - Tim Beyers

Keep going with intros as we set tee up the topic. Going to get the rules next. - Tim Beyers

Hello to friends new and old, so glad to have you all here tonight! - Lydia Dishman

Thanks, Jennifer. :) Just followed you back. At this point, I don't know *exactly* when the book will be out, I just know it'll be soon. - Jen Nipps

By the way, I'm @tomfeyer on Twitter. I generally tweet about letters and other interesting things in The Times. Join in the conversation! - Thomas Feyer

Hi, Lydia! - Jen Nipps

By the way...I have a puppy (he's almost 3 months old), so I might be in & out quite a bit. - Jen Nipps

Aw, tell us about him! Breed(s)? Name? Etc. - Meryl K. Evans

His name's Magic. He's a chihuahua/dachshund mix. My last little dog was the same breed mix, but he won't be as big as she was. - Jen Nipps

Ooh puppeh! and short haired - love that:) - Lydia Dishman

Great crowd tonight, as always. All the topic details are the new and improved blog site: http://www.editorchat.net - Tim Beyers

I didn't think I wanted another dog even though my little girl went to the Rainbow Bridge around the first of August, but someone had other ideas. lol - Jen Nipps

Speaking of puppies, the first of my two teenagers just got home, with the other coming soon. So I may be in and out as well. They'll need the computer for homework. But, Lydia and Tim, we're getting everyone a computer this month, I promise! - Thomas Feyer

Magic... for the team or ... ? - Meryl K. Evans

It is the only thing that made us sane here - I have one 12 and one 14 year old. - Lydia Dishman

We'll hold you that, Tom ... Yeah, okay. We won't, but we'd like to. We enjoy having you here. - Tim Beyers from IM

Was looking up photos of the chihuahua/dachshund mix... looks like they call 'em chiweenies. Cute. - Meryl K. Evans

Hi all, only got a few minutes before meeting up with some peeps to go running in the snow. I'm a freelance multimedia journalist with specialty in adventure travel and the outdoors located in Boulder, Co. - Tim Shisler

No, not the team. lol. Grandma brought him in & handed him to my Mom. One of my aunts who works with us asked where she got him and Mom said, "By Magic." - Jen Nipps

Yup. They're chiweenies. :) - Jen Nipps

Thanks, Tim, Lydia, Jen, and hi. Armed with hot chocolate, but attention might be slightly divided. It's a great thing y'all do here. - Andria Krewson

Hey Tim. Glad you could make it, even if it's only for a few. - Tim Beyers

That's a great story. Looking at chiweenies -- lot of different looks. Adorable. My first dog was Midnight Cowboy... nothing to do with the movie (I didn't know... I was only 9). He was black as midnight and I love the Dallas Cowboys. - Meryl K. Evans

Thanks Tim. Trust me I'd rather be here in front of a computer than outside in the 6 degrees running up a hill - Tim Shisler

Yeah, well, it was 8 degrees here just an hour ago. We'll go negative overnight. - Tim Beyers from IM

So topic intro coming in above, please follow :) - Lydia Dishman

And I've been complaining about being cold and it's in the mid-50s. Of course, I grew up in Hawaii, so I'm something of a wuss when it comes to anything below the low 60s. - Marc Hertz

finally dropping in....JOrdana Megonigal here, in S.C. Editor on from maternity leave! - Jordana Megonigal

Meryl K. Evans

http://twitpic.com/rtw5w - Look what I found in Plano! I had no idea rain could be white colored! :)

December 2, 2009 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Karen Swim liked this

Wow snow. Didn't think you get snow very often.. - Laura Gonzalez

We do get snow in Texas... or ugly, dangerous ice. Just a few days a year. That's why I live DFW. We get seasons even though summer is a little hotter than average. - Meryl K. Evans from email

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

Well, it's that time. Please reintroduce yourselves and give us a link as you go. #editorchat

November 18, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Thanks for coming all. Lydia Dishman, your co-host and fellow in freelancedom :) - Lydia Dishman

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Suzi Steffen, performing and visual arts editor at the Eugene Weekly and adjunct instructor at the University of Oregon's J-school. @suzisteffen on Twitter. LinkedIn, Skype, etc. http://blogs.eugeneweekly.com/suzi and my students are doing local blogging at http://reporting1blog.wordpress.com. Thanks, Lydia and Tim! You rock! - Suzi Steffen

Thanks for holding this, Lydia and Tim. We appreciate you both and value this discussion. http://www.meryl.net/ @merylkevans - Meryl K. Evans

Charles Bohannan of http://wordful.com, out of Waimea, Hawaii on the Big Island. Mahalo and Aloha to Tim and Lydia and everyone else here! - Charles

Once more, you were terrific. Tim Beyers, Motley Fool tech contributor and freelancer covering tech, business, finance, and culture. http://timbeyers.com - Tim Beyers

Thanks for another great chat, Lydia & Tim! Over & out. :) ~ Becky, Iowa, Deep Muck Big Rake, @BeckyDMBR - Becky

Tom Feyer, letters editor of The New York Times. Please follow me on Twitter -- @tomfeyer -- where I highlight the day's letters and other items of interest. Also: www.nytimes.com/opinion - Thomas Feyer

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

We've been brainstorming ways to make #editorchat better but we'd like to hear from you. What do we not do either here, on Twitter, or at the blog that we should be doing?

November 18, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

The blog needs updating, preferably at a few days before our discussion. Please. - Charles

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I'm referring to editorchat.net, that is. - Charles

I think you're doing a wonderful job. - Becky

Should we do more with it, Charles? Or are you just referring to posting the questions? - Tim Beyers

Oh come on, Becky. We could be doing *something*, right? - Tim Beyers

I second Becky's motion. You guys are great. - Thomas Feyer

Recruit more people, but I think that's something we participants need to do. - Suzi Steffen

Spread the word, Suzi! - Tim Beyers

I appreciated Lydia's DM to me on Twitter this afternoon! - Suzi Steffen

Promotion -- bring in more people. That's the only disadvantage about this outside of twitter --- people don't see it. - Meryl K. Evans

I think when we finish up, we should say we'll keep talking about it on the blog? - Suzi Steffen

I try to DM people the day of, but frankly, am not always able to capture everyone - Lydia Dishman

I do have one question. Is Wednesday night -- a school night -- the best time for #editorchat? As you know, I'm often off dealing with the kids and their homework. - Thomas Feyer

Is there a place to add links, etc? (Is that here?) - Suzi Steffen

Hey, maybe a Facebook page? Then we could promote there, too? - Meryl K. Evans

Suzi, we've done that with the blog and no one really comes around after the chat. - Lydia Dishman

Now you're rolling. Keep going for four min. and then we'll move on to reintros. - Tim Beyers

Tom, we have talked about timing but really, no time is a good time if you think about it. If it's not family, it's work.. Or the weekend. - Lydia Dishman

How about a button? Or a link to quickly invite people to participate? Gah. Have I been using Facebook too much? ;) - Becky

Lydia and I see this as a community, and correspondingly as a community effort. We want to make it the most attractive and engaging experience it can be. - Tim Beyers

Let me back up, Tim. I LOVE Editorchat, and think we have a great community here. So thanks to you and Lydia for everything. The blog: post questions earlier would be helpful. I think a Facebook page is a wonderful idea (credit to Meryl for the suggestion). - Charles

Understood, Lydia. Beside, eventually my kids will grow up and leave me! :-( - Thomas Feyer

Thanks for those comments. We'll collect 'em all and talk through what makes sense. We're open any further promotional ideas you have. - Tim Beyers

Hmmm. - Suzi Steffen

Reintros coming at the top. - Tim Beyers

Mine too, Tom - meantime, you should see the eye-rolls here on Wed. nights. But I tell them doing w/o me for 90 minutes builds character ;-) - Lydia Dishman

Yes, I echo what Charles said. This is one of the better chats out there -- I think being in Friendfeed (and I love it) makes it harder for it to get noticed. - Meryl K. Evans

I would join a Facebook page. - Becky

Me, too, Becky. - Thomas Feyer

I assume no chat next week -- turkey day. - Meryl K. Evans

Good call, Meryl. Enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday everyone. We're certainly thankful for this group. - Tim Beyers

Yes, Meryl - hiatus next week - Lydia Dishman

Thanks for the DM reminders, Lydia. - Thomas Feyer

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! - Becky

My pleasure Tom. And let me second Tim - I am grateful for all 'yous' as they say back in da Bronx. - Lydia Dishman

I'm thankful for Tim, Lydia, Becky, Meryl, Charles, Suzi, Jen and everyone else for these 90 minutes -- give or take an hour! - Thomas Feyer

We're thankful to Tim and Lydia for this. And I am thankful for you, you, yes you, and you for making me exercise my brain with seriously good discussion. - Meryl K. Evans

Right, Meryl. It's a pleasure to be with such smart, engaging people :-) - Thomas Feyer

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

So why are the #journalism and #publishing industries so obsessed with content? Is this just the buzzword du jour, or does it really mean something? #editorchat

November 18, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

With as often as I see "content" bandied about, I think a lot of times, it's just used as the buzzword of the moment. Heck, most of the time I think I know what is being discussed and it can confuse me anyway. *s* - Jen Nipps

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The obsession is driven by the internet marketing craze. Too many marketers and so-called marketers selling a scarcity of products, including "great content." This should settle down in time. - Charles

Yeah, what Jen and Charles said. :) - Meryl K. Evans

Charles, I hope you're right. And I also hope it doesn't take too long. lol - Jen Nipps

Often, new content is a driver to look at a web site, whether via RSS, or subscription, or email digest, etc. Eyeballs = clicks which translate to $ - Lydia Dishman

I'm sick of it. It's made me feel worthless at times. - Charles

Will it really, Charles? I mean, I want to believe you're right, but hasn't publishing reached the point where pay-for-performance -- as in: risk-shifting to writers and "paying for great content" -- is one of the few remaining strategies for operating profitably? - Tim Beyers

"Eyeballs = clicks which translate to $" This is what I heard from AC, Lydia. Clicks are *the* currency in AC's world. - Tim Beyers

I hope there's a pendulum shift. When people stop reading / buying a publication because it's mostly crap? Then maybe it's time to invest in more depth. ??? - Becky

Well, Tim, I imagine some innovative publishing business models will emerge and new companies/brands will rise to the top. - Charles

I wonder Becky. Look at TV. Give the people what they want has turned networks and cable to reality crap. - Lydia Dishman

Hey, some is good reality... Top Chef for one. Amazing Race takes us around the world. - Meryl K. Evans

Actually, Lydia, for the first time in *I swear* a decade, there's some quality on TV again. When I discovered that, I figured they were finally paying writers again. - Becky

You are right Meryl -some is good. I was thinking of Real Housewives, Wife Swap, etc. - Lydia Dishman

Becky, absolutely right. I am noticing some good stuff on TV this season -- at long last. - Meryl K. Evans

What would that innovator look like? Gets back to the intrinsic value question. Perhaps Rachel has it best: connections are currency. Seems we heard something like that from @JohnAByrne some time ago, when we were still on Twitter. - Tim Beyers

And that may be the pendulum finally swinging back. We've had enough Springer and bored housewives. Bring on the real writing and great stories! - Lydia Dishman

I'm enjoying television this year for the first time in a long time. Have you seen The Good Wife, Mad Men, Damages? Heck, I'm even taken in by Glee. Whee! Somebody had to write that. ;) - Becky

"Bring on the real writing and great stories!" Amen. - Tim Beyers

I second that, Tim! - Charles

True. Storytelling has made a comeback in some circles. Bored to Death? That's just a big juicy slice of awesome. - Tim Beyers

Even network TV has some good stuff. Look at Glee and Modern Family. - Lydia Dishman

TV is making a comeback, but what about great stories/writing on the web and elsewhere? - Charles

Have you guys looked at online magazines, etc.? I am thinking of this Texas arts mag called Glasstire (http://glasstire.org) that just won an award at the National Arts Journalism Summit. I think there's room for storytelling, but I also think the funding is an issue. (Grants are awesome! Except then you have to report to the granting agencies, and you don't want to rely on them entirely ... ) - Suzi Steffen

Elsewhere? Yipes. That's harder. I read tons of magazines, though. Anyone read The Sun? - Becky

Back to the original question before we move on. Why the obsession with "content" if storytelling is making a comeback? - Tim Beyers

Wish @jkwill10 was here, he's gotten a Knight grant for his new endeavor - Lydia Dishman

Second that. Where are you @jkwill10? - Tim Beyers

Did Suzi just say "Texas"?? Was not familiar with Glasstire. - Meryl K. Evans

I've got to duck out. I'm behind on my Nano project and need to get some done on that since the first two books in that series are currently under consideration with a publisher. - Jen Nipps

Tim - because in the midst of flux and before a new model is established clicks actually are currency. New content is a driver of revenue. - Lydia Dishman

"Content" is something sites can slap up quickly and pay little or nothing for, promising writers a percentage of ad revenue (ha, ha) or a few bucks a post. Traffic is what matters most there. - Becky

I think the obsession is at the management level more than anything, a way to try and productize the publishing business into something less esoteric. Disagree? - Tim Beyers

I know, Meryl, but I did! - Suzi Steffen

See ya, Jen! - Becky

Content includes storytelling. It's an umbrella term for anything that gets published and has the potential to be commodofied (if that's even a word) - Charles

I just don't get how those content mills make money. If I arrive on a site that produces cwap -- I leave. I am not sticking around. - Meryl K. Evans

Oh, don't get me started, Meryl. - Becky

Mostly I agree, Becky. But this isn't always true. Is a great recipe content? I suppose so, but even a recipe can have a story. - Tim Beyers

@Tim I thnk it's a belief that somehow driving clicks will definitely drive advertising, but I'm not sure that actually works ... still, I like sites like Gawker, Jezebel, etc. They have both "content" and storytelling. Oh, and ads. But don't they pay by click rate? - Suzi Steffen

Suzi -- you're fault! I am now getting another email newsletter ;) Just subscribed to Glassware's DFW edition. Looks fabulous. - Meryl K. Evans

I don;t understand why content is getting a totally bad rap here. Sure, there's terrible content, but there's also good content. I consider it a neutral term. - Charles

Yeah... why y'all knocking this content maven, eh? :) - Meryl K. Evans

Yes, but does one tell a story with a great recipe? Some do. Some don't. - Becky

Also true. So the term content is being misused. Should we be more indignant about this? I want to be in the content business, but not in the content mill business. - Tim Beyers

True, Charles. Content is a neutral word. However, when a site is getting "content" from someone (or stealing it) to make money off of it, it's not necessarily quality. - Becky

Storytelling with recipes, right here: http://www.101cookbooks.com/ - Charles

Ah, see, there you go, Tim. Adding context (and a word) that makes it clearer. ;) - Becky

I love that site, Charles. Thanks for sharing it. - Meryl K. Evans

I'm here all week, Becky. Well, okay, only for a few more minutes. (Grins.) - Tim Beyers

Yeah, Meryl, great storytelling and sharing, and wonderful recipes. - Charles

Oh... you mean I have to make 'em myself? They don't just appear on my table? Phooey. - Meryl K. Evans

I'm back -- for now at least. I propose cutting down on the jargon like "content" and "product" and asking in simple English: Is the story interesting? Compelling? Do you want to read on? Does it make you see things in a new way? And so on. - Thomas Feyer

That's a good way to think of it, Tom. Frankly, I wasn't seeing the difference between content and story before this discussion. Felt like a wrong-headed marketing term. - Tim Beyers

Excellent point, Thomas. - Becky

Any last comments on this? Lydia and I have a favor to ask before we close. - Tim Beyers

Yeah, Tim, "content" is way overused. And great insight, Thomas. - Charles

Ask away, Tim. - Thomas Feyer

Alright, last question coming. Look up. - Tim Beyers

New question above -- dig in. - Tim Beyers

Looking up ... - Suzi Steffen

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

We've been hearing a lot about "content," as if somehow productizing stories is the solution to the #publishing world's problems. Is there a material difference between content and story? If so, what is it?

November 18, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Uh-oh. Here come the crickets. Maybe our "content maven" will chime in here? (Grins.) - Tim Beyers

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I think there is. The person writing it cares about a story where a lot of times they crank out as much "content" as they can. There are, of course, exceptions to that. - Jen Nipps

I think Meryl is a very good case-in-point about there being exceptions to that. - Jen Nipps

Anyone (almost) can gather content. And lots of people do -- for free. Not everyone can tell a good story. - Becky

Content is churned or canned - stories are original, whether reporting or analysis. - Lydia Dishman

Where are you, FriendFeed retweet button? CURSE YOU! (Good point, Becky.) - Tim Beyers

There is never one solution to the world's problems and that includes publishing. Lots of great content don't undergo story-izing. - Meryl K. Evans

Content is a commodity, stories aren't. But stories can be part of content. - Charles

So are service pieces nothing but content? How-to do X? - Tim Beyers

Not necessarily. - Jen Nipps

Not at all, Tim. I work with a professional services business and email newsletter. We've told stories. But we've also told non-stories. Both successful. - Meryl K. Evans

Getting specific on this, I'm thinking of content as something that can be posted and measured. Something defined by actions -- which makes it all the more attractive to advertisers. Fair? - Tim Beyers

Tim - very fair. Content is a commodity and the pay scale offered to those creating it is very much in line with its devaluation. - Lydia Dishman

Yeah. I think that's probably pretty accurate. (Blasted phone keeps ringing.) - Jen Nipps

There was a fascinating point in my conversation with Luke at AC in which I asked whether there was an intrinsic value to stories. He didn't really have an answer, asserting instead that -- from here on -- clicks are what drive value. I find this to be both frightening and understandable. - Tim Beyers

That kind of mindset is what keeps me away from places like AC, CC, and (sometimes) DS, unless I need a quick paycheck and there's something I can write to that won't take long. - Jen Nipps

It is, Tim. As if we must promote our content like crazy... but that turns off people. Some great content never gets seen simply because it hasn't spread as it deserves to be. - Meryl K. Evans

I wonder if the idea of nonprofit funding or some longer-term sponsorship would work for stories over content clicks. - Suzi Steffen

BUt, you're right. It is frightening. People get to used to thinking that it's nothing to do an article, even a how-to. In the class I just finished teaching, I tried to emphasize that it's not easy and it's not a get-rich-quick scheme. - Jen Nipps

I think "deserves" is the key word there, Meryl. By using that word, you assert that there *is* an intrinsic value to some content, perhaps content that is a great narrative. - Tim Beyers

(I think I made that point effectively because 2 of the 4 people enrolled in the class never came back.) - Jen Nipps

LOL Jen. - Suzi Steffen

Nice inferring there, Tim. Ha -- Jen. - Meryl K. Evans

Case in point. I had a post that several people found months after it went live... then it spread and got a lot of notice. But if several had never seen it, it'd be sitting there making me think it was not good enough... when it actually was... and needed some word of mouth love. - Meryl K. Evans

My problem is that, like Jen, many writers are pushed to produce content just for that quick paycheck. I think it is not good for writers and just grows an audience for the french fries of feature writing/reporting. - Lydia Dishman

How about a show of hands regarding the original question. Who says stories *dont* posses an intrinsic value? (As in how we've always operated in publishing -- writers are paid to produce some story that we assign a price, assuming that as fair value for the editorial team's time and commensurate work required.) - Tim Beyers

I've heard a lot recently about retweeting and Facebook links becoming more of the new valuation and some turning away from SEO. (As an alt-weekly arts editor, I can say that none of us every thinks about that at all. Maybe I do a little in my online headlines now, but that's it.) - Suzi Steffen

I'm hesitant to say that stories don't have intrinsic value, though. - Jen Nipps

Oops, ever. - Suzi Steffen

Lydia, thankfully I don't have to do it very often. I feel bad, like I'm contributing to the idea that low pay is acceptable for writing of any kind/quality. - Jen Nipps

stories do have value - but if we, the writers, don't continue to stand up for their intrinsic value (and our own worth as professionals) it will all go away. - Lydia Dishman

I wrote for one of those write lots of content, sacrifice quality sites. But didn't realize it right away because it was not known like the others. Once I realized it, I slow down my contribution and haven't contributed in a while. - Meryl K. Evans

"French fries of feature writing/reporting." I love that, Lydia! :) - Becky

So presuming stories carry an intrinsic value, how do we measure it? - Tim Beyers

How did we ever measure it, Tim? - Becky

I don't know. But not everything that has valuable is measurable. - Jen Nipps

I missed that. Thanks, Jen. Love the "French fries" analogy. Agree with Jen -- we can't put a value or measure everything that's valuable. - Meryl K. Evans

I don't know that you can measure value in terms of price, but more in the amount of people the story touches, as opposed to how many read it. - Rachel Hergett

Becky -- I think in the past we measured it by what advertisers were willing to pay after subtracting general corporate expenses and so on. - Tim Beyers

Jen, and all, I don't mean to knock anyone for writing for a content producer like AC, I know we all need to make a buck, but to me it is like committing to buying local food. Great in theory, but in practice ie: real life, it is sometimes more challenging to make it work. - Lydia Dishman

I didn't take it as knocking me/anyone. :) I just added my extra 2-cents' worth. lol - Jen Nipps

measurement is difficult. I agree with Rachel, it is more valuable to touch readers than to get clicks. But how will you ever really know who's affected? Comments are not a good gauge. - Lydia Dishman

What I'm hearing -- or do I have this wrong? -- is that there may be a disconnect between market and intrinsic value, especially if we go by Rachel' definition: "the amount of people the story touches, as opposed to how many read it." - Tim Beyers

Unfortunately, I think stories are being considered as literary. It seems even a lot of monthly magazines go the content direction more often than not. So since a lot of people don't value literary works... - Jen Nipps

"Story" just isn't rainbows & unicorns and touchy-feely stuff. It's context. And it's missing A LOT. For example, WSJ just ran an article about the new guidelines for mammograms. While it provided "content" (info about said guidelines & some quotes), it failed to ask any more questions or provide context or depth. - Becky

I think that's an excellent point/illustration, Becky. - Jen Nipps

Becky, agreed. However, I think many editors just throw ideas around thick and fast and expect reporter to provide context with just a few links. - Lydia Dishman

Exactly, Lydia. And the layers that used to be there (reporters, copy editors, desk editors, MEs, etc., etc.) are gone. - Becky

Very true, Becky. What good is content without context? - Charles

I've been noticing places like WSJ having some lesser quality articles. Disappointing. - Meryl K. Evans

Charles, it's like Lydia said ... it's French fries. ;) - Becky

Great stuff. Keep going while I post a new question above. - Tim Beyers

Look up! New question above! (Grins.) - Tim Beyers

"Would you like fries with that?" --ugh - Charles

If the WSJ reporter had several layers of editors, perhaps more information would have been required. WHY did they change the guidelines? What research did they use? Who's on the panel? Where do they work / what are their professional ties? (The one panelist quoted works for Kaiser Permanente.) And what does that mean to the whole story? - Becky

Becky, it seems to me that there's a lot more room online for that kind of context! Through links, sidebars, etc. (And I'll move up to the other question.) - Suzi Steffen

Suzi, yeah, there's room online for it, but that doesn't mean it should be totally neglected in print. - Jen Nipps

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

'Evening all. We're talking about stories tonight. Do they have intrinsic value? Or should clicks and other Webby metrics be how we measure the true worth of a published piece? #editorchat

November 18, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Please introduce yourselves as you join. I'm your co-host, Tim Beyers. Motley Fool tech contributor and freelancer covering tech, finance, business, and culture. - Tim Beyers

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Hi, all! Sorry I was late & missed last week. Jen Nipps, fl writer in south Oklahoma, soon to have a book of devotions out, possibly around Christmas. - Jen Nipps

Glad you could make it, Tom. You too, Jen. - Tim Beyers

Tom Feyer, letters editor of The New York Times. The opinions expressed here are solely my own. If I have to leave the chat, it's because the kids need the computer to do homework and our other computers are down. - Thomas Feyer

Meryl K Evans, content maven aka writer who makes a living playing with words for clients and editors. - Meryl K. Evans

We'll allow a few more minutes for intros and then dig in. Some background in the meantime: this topic is partly inspired by a conversation I had with Luke Beatty, founder of Associated Content, at the Defrag show in Denver last week. - Tim Beyers

Charles Bohannan, part-time Associate Editor, blogger at Wordful - Charles

Got me to wondering: Why do we always say "content?" Aren't we really talking about stories? - Tim Beyers

Hi, Meryl & Tom. Good to see you all. - Jen Nipps

Thanks for joining us, Meryl and Charles. - Tim Beyers

Oh, btw...I forgot. If you're also on Twitter, I'm @jennipps. - Jen Nipps

Story Maven just doesn't work for me, Tim. :) I think people will think I'm a storyteller ... for children... not businesses. - Meryl K. Evans

"Content" and "product" -- bad. "Stories'' -- good. - Thomas Feyer

I'm going to grab the rules. Keep introducing yourselves and then we'll dig in. - Tim Beyers

Hey, hey, hey! It's Becky from Iow-ay! - Becky

Hi ya, Becky. :) - Jen Nipps

Rachel Hergett, editor and reporter at the Bozeman Daily Chronicle. I may be in and out tonight because I'm on the desk. - Rachel Hergett

Hey, Jen! ;) - Becky

Hi, all. On Twitter, I'm @tomfeyer. Uh-oh, Kid 2 just got home and has to do homework on this computer! Will try to come back later. - Thomas Feyer

Glad you all could be here. Not sure where Lydia is but let's dig in. I'm sure she'll join us when she can. - Tim Beyers

Well that was fast. Hopefully we'll see ya later, Tom. - Jen Nipps

Thanks, Tom.We'll be here. - Tim Beyers

Me @merylkevans on twitter... - Meryl K. Evans

First question is up. Scroll to the top, friends. - Tim Beyers

Hey all, Suzi Steffen from Eugene, Ore., here. Arts editor at an alt-weekly. - Suzi Steffen

Hey all, finally here - Lydia Dishman

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Good evening all, welcome to #editorchat. I'm your co-host Lydia Dishman hoping that power doesn't go out because of all the wind we're having in our neck of SC.

November 11, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Your other co-host here. Tim Beyers, Motley Fool tech contributor and freelancer covering tech, finance, business, and culture. Chatting from outside the exhibit area at the #defrag conference in Denver. - Tim Beyers

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Hi, Charles of Wordful LLC here in Hawaii - Charles

Hey Charles. Good to see you here. Very light crowd. Hoping it picks up soon. - Tim Beyers from IM

Hi Charles:) - Lydia Dishman

Hi Lydia and Tim, and others...? - Charles

Guess we didn't get the crowd tonight, Charles. We'll close up shop early and promise to be too compelling to ignore next week. - Tim Beyers

Fair enough. I really appreciate what both of you are doing here. 'See' you next week! - Charles

Aw... I'm sorry not enough. Next week, then! - Meryl K. Evans

Guess I'm too late. - Rachel Hergett

Me too. Sorry. - Jen Nipps

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

If the new model question begins and ends with what readers will pay for, should editors and writers be more invested in biz dev than they have been traditionally? #editorchat

November 4, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

If by biz dev you mean taking the time to draw up a business plan, mission, and long- and short-term goals, it'd be a darn good idea. (I've got part of that done, but not all.) - Jen Nipps

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I think everyone involved in all aspects of publishing need to be more invested in biz dev. A new model demands that everyone be pulling to make it work. - Lydia Dishman

If you mean developing followings/readership, then yes, definitely. - Jen Nipps

There is no such thing as a "pure" editor any more. If an editor isn't involved/invested in every dimension of the business they work in -- and that includes marketing and new business planning -- then they have no future in publishing. - Jane Friedman

yes. this past weekend i had a discussion with the EIC for a mag I edit about leveraging the mag since some of the industry(gospel) giants had dropped print for online. she wasn't aware of the potential she had. - dee

Writers should be doing more of the business-side of things than they have in the past. While some may have been entrepreneurial, many have not. I think it'll become the standard way of having a career as a writer unless you're James Patterson or Malcolm Gladwell. - Meryl K. Evans

Jane, I've noticed/understood that from several editors I've heard at conferences recently, so I would have to agree. - Jen Nipps

Of course. I call them (us?) Editor-Entrepreneurs. It shall go without saying henceforth :) - Charles

If your question is whether writers should have a stake in defining their target market and cultivating that market, I totally agree. - Willowbottom

I mean the whole process, as Jane specifies. I don't see how any writer can be entrepreneurial without fully understanding the economics of the business. - Tim Beyers

And that can be intimidating as all get-out. lol. But it poses a challenge and I don't often back down from those. :) - Jen Nipps

This a fine line, of course. If you're a journalist, helping to devise a plan to win more advertisers could create a serious conflict of interest, yes? - Tim Beyers

It really could. I think it could cause some to have to choose which route to go, writing or advertising. - Jen Nipps

(Applause.) That's for our friend, Willowbottom, who we haven't seen in an #editorchat for some time. Welcome back. (Plays Kotter theme.) - Tim Beyers

Tim: Would it be a conflict of interest if you're going after a broad enough segment? But I still see courting the advertisers as a different question than understanding the business drivers. - Willowbottom

It doesn't necessarily mean writers have to get advertisers, but they can drive traffic. - Lydia Dishman

I can see how it would apply if, as part of an assignment, writers have to develop/encourage some advertising. - Jen Nipps

Actually, today's environment requires many of us to market ourselves and learn some business smarts. So it's not just writers and editors. - Meryl K. Evans

i feel it's a slippery slope when writers get involved in advertising. a conflict of interest definitely happens, but we can assist in the retention of our subscribers. - dee

That's a good point. Understanding the business drivers -- and writing to the broad strokes -- may simply be smart business, and smart journalism. - Tim Beyers

Yes. And where this leaves agents makes interesting food for thought... - E.F. Slattery

*mini bow* My contributions are not worthy of the acclaim. But to the topic, writers can (and should) understand the economics of it all and writers can (and shouldn't they?) leverage their related networks for the sake of gaining visibility. - Willowbottom

I think more creative thinking is needed on how to help advertisers reach an audience (they're having a tough time too) -- sometimes editorial people are the best ones to contribute good ideas. I didn't go to J-school, but some of the old thinking about editorial vs. advertising can be a barrier to innovative solutions that could help everyone. - Jane Friedman

Willowbottom, agreed. I feel it is as much my responsibility as the magazines I'm published in to get my stories in front of readers. - Lydia Dishman

Certainly so. I'll briefly plug for the Fool here. Had a conversation with one of my editors today about an aspect of our business that needs some attention right now. Increases my confidence in this business, which is my oldest and most important client. - Tim Beyers

exactly, Tim. It's good to know that editors are listening to contributing editors. - dee

I think perhaps advertisers need to be re-inventing their model alongside the media. - Lydia Dishman

Jane, you're an editor. Would you go so far as to share financial data with one of your authors for the sake of building a better model? How open would you be? - Tim Beyers

Lydia, so right. Publishing, for instance, shifted more of their marketing dollars toward PR last year than advertising. - dee

Time to settle in for the night. Have a great night all. Thanks for another thought-provoker. - Meryl K. Evans

Good to see you, Meryl. Have a good one. - Jen Nipps

Tim, I was just thinking that I need to do a blog post revealing some financial data - on both the mag side and book side. It would definitely be eye-opening. As far as revealing that info to specific authors, I certainly would if I trusted them. Everyone needs to understand the challenges, and sometimes the numbers speak loudest. - Jane Friedman

Thanks, Meryl. Glad you could be here. - Tim Beyers

Thanks Meryl! - Lydia Dishman

Night, Meryl. Good to meet you. - dee

Maybe I'm naive here, but I see this as a one hand washing the other situation: writers learn the business pressures which can broaden their perspective plus help them self-promote. Likewise, the publishers can leverage the credibility and industry-specific network of their writers to better target. - Willowbottom

i see what you see, willowbottom - dee

Jane, I've always met with hesitation on the editors' parts when I've asked about the economics of their publication. Some clearly don't know, but others I believe, fear letting me know too much. - Lydia Dishman

Lydia, and what is behind the fear in letting you know too much do you think? Is it that they fear loose lips sink ships? Just curious. - Willowbottom

Lydia - Yes, there's a great deal of hesitation/fear, but I have no idea why. I tend to just distribute info freely, and expect people to use the information responsibly, and to trust them. We're in this together, after all. - Jane Friedman

That could be, Willow. Also, perhaps they think writers have no business knowing any of "that stuff." - Jen Nipps

I don't think that's naive, Willow. But I'll also say that I've only seen this pattern among the most enlightened editors I work with. - Tim Beyers

The fear/hesitation may be related to: thinking authors will suddenly feel mistreated -- or that secrets are getting out to competitors. - Jane Friedman

Loose lips, I think on the local level, as well as fear that if things weren't totally solid financially, that writers would stop writing. For national mags, I know one case where the editor really had no idea. - Lydia Dishman

Jane, I'd like to work for you ;-) - Lydia Dishman

Lydia, I know many cases when the editors had no idea - dee

Can't believe I have to say this -- because this has been soooo good, thank you all -- but I have to hit the killjoy button. Leaving space for reintros and a link in the next post, coming above. - Tim Beyers

Party pooper. ;) - Jen Nipps

--> Jane, I'd like to work for you ;-) (Raises hand.) Me, too. - Tim Beyers

Totally frustrates me when editors/staffers don't know the financial situation of their publication! Grr. I share this information constantly. It's essential to know. Livelihoods are on the line. (And thanks, Lydia.) - Jane Friedman

And Tim :) - Jane Friedman

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

Does the oft-expressed need for writers to see a better revenue split really necessitate a new business model? #editorchat

November 4, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

No doubt it varies for each publishing house, but I think most publishers are scrutinizing the strength of the old model in a rapidly changing climate. (And if you're a writer, the answer has to be yes.) - E.F. Slattery

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My guess is "abso-freaking-lutely." Revenue models are at the core of all biz models. How do you not change the publishing business without blowing up the revenue model? - Tim Beyers

Yes, but I'm not sure of the specifics. - Charles

not really. understandably, we've grown accustomed to our current and dying pay model. (i.e., publication pay us to write.) - dee

Right, Erin. This is one of those crisis moments where everything is on the table. Also, if we accept that Jarvis is right -- he may not be, interested in hearing from dissenters -- entrepreneurs are hard-wired for disruption. - Tim Beyers

How about this: writers get a base pay + commission based on page or site performance from ad or affiliate revenue (some sort of algorithm). - Charles

I've seen this, Charles. How willing would the writers in this crowd be to operate under a pay-for-performance model? Maybe that's a better question for Harper Collins -- wonder how many top-tier authors are excited about risk-taking. - Tim Beyers

[You'll have to excuse me...the time change (which we don't observe here in HI) has got me double timing with my "day job," thus I'm a little flighty on the responses/discussion] - Charles

I hate to say it, but no matter what model we end up with, my gut says that writers will either be earning about the same as they do today, or maybe less. Looking at book publishing in particular, there just isn't the same money to go around, and authors, even with a 50-50 split, may never make the same kind of money as when they received a strong 5- or 6-figure advance. Especially if... more... - Jane Friedman

That's the fear, Jane, and I suspect your're right. Increasingly, publishing has become a volume game. I'm not sure how much more I can write. - Tim Beyers

Tim: sure, it's a risk writers will have to be willing to take if they want to get in on the ground level of what could be a revolutionary publishing business model. Where else are they going to go? - Charles

That's another reason why authors, especially those who have a decent fan base (10K + sales annual) to consider becoming independent, then they will get more of the money for their work. - dee

Ian Paul here, freelance contributor to PC World. I like Arrington's idea for the New New York Times, it's essentially a leaner business model doing the same work, just cutting out the printing part and focusing on journalism. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... I think most concepts for the future have to evolve from what's already out there. If you... more... - Ian Paul

Allow me to add yet another wrinkle here. Going by the "ideal models" below, the key to publishing profits -- as we see it -- isn't so different from the key to freelancing profits: repurposing content for profit. Yes? No? - Tim Beyers

Yes, Tim, absolutely, and marketing/measuring it with great precision. - Charles

Here. Catching up. Been a heckuva day. - Meryl K. Evans

When it comes to publishing profits, I know I probably won't see the same volume as before (not the same circ levels, not the same book sales levels). So to make the same money/profits, I'm looking at: new types of products that usually involve repurposing of content, all new content (online sub models, events, digital products, education), raising prices when appropriate, and cutting all the fat. - Jane Friedman

if there was a new business model that would be beneficial to writers, what would it look like? - dee

Thanks for being here, Ian. We appreciate the comment. Arrington's riff is reminiscent of what Jarvis argues -- the top reporters are entrepreneurial anyway. What I think he misses is the value of the exclusive content that the NYT produces. Or maybe he just doesn't explicitly call it out. - Tim Beyers

Or perhaps since the NYT has been around so long and has had some...issues, he discounts it? - Jen Nipps

My thinking is the same as Jane's... no matter the model, it won't turn out better for writers. - Meryl K. Evans

If so, Jen, I think that would be a mistake. The Times Book Review is still essential reading for many. Local restaurant reviews, etc. - Tim Beyers

It seems to me that even magazines started by writers to pay writers better don't turn out that well, Meryl. - Jen Nipps

I agree, Tim. I definitely agree. :) I'm just guess-timating. - Jen Nipps

Because the revenue stream hasn't caught up with the pay roll. Ads don't work, subscrips don't work, so what to use to pay? - Lydia Dishman

Why won't it turn out better for writers, Meryl? There are hundreds of opportunities to publish (ebooks or print) that didn't exist five years ago, let alone ten or twenty. My instinct is that if writers started to think of themselves as entrepreneurs (or if those who weren't already, did), they would seek out a model and publishing process that they have more control over. - E.F. Slattery

Erin, I think it boils down to the cost of doing business regardless of how they try to keep overhead costs down. - Jen Nipps

Just a quick insert here, and for the record: We've had entrepreneurial writers for years. We call them freelancers. (Many of them, anyway.) - Tim Beyers

Hear hear! - Lydia Dishman

Very good point, Tim. :) Even with freelancers though, there are some who are definitely more entrepreneurial than others. - Jen Nipps

Underpaying writers is a problem that needs to be a the forefront of solutions. I can see why writers have incentive to strike out on their own, but the technology and marketing is already a full-time job. - Charles

that's a hard one, lydia. I had someone email me this weekend. They asked me if I could tell them for free how to make money online for free? i emailed them back and told them i make money by charging a fee for my service. They didn't respond. In short many expect free content. they don't see that these free content providers are searching for ways to monetize some of this content. - dee

Much depends on how much money readers will pay for content (because readers pay writers either directly or indirectly). Which publishers are going to produce content that is so irresistible, people won't think twice about paying for it? Few of such publishers exist nowadays, IMHO. But a good example? McSweeney's. - Jane Friedman

The other question is what kind of credibility will these new models have in the eyes of the reader/consumer? Will they value books, for example, that come from self-publishing writers? They don't now, do they? Even if you take a mainstream writer with a big following, Stephen King or someone like that, would future books succeed without a "stamp of authority" from a third-party aka the publisher? - Ian Paul

Erin, I agree that writers need to think of themselves as entrepreneurs. But so much is coming out and we can only buy and read so much. Then there are the content mills they pay piddly. It could beget more. - Meryl K. Evans

Charles, so true. And for indie writers there is more risk and investment, so the bottom line may be close to someone writing for a publisher. - dee

As far as self-publishing goes, the stigma against it is because there is so much unedited drivel out there. I've recently been coming across more professional, edited self-pub'd books, but they're still pretty scarce. - Jen Nipps

Exactly, Dee, which comes back to the today's original question about a new publishing business model...it's badly needed. - Charles

I'm not so sure about that, Ian. Social media is a leveler. When publishers can no longer control the channel that tells us what to read, quality storytelling -- irrespective of publisher -- gets the nod. A following is more important than a seal, I think. - Tim Beyers

And conversely Tim, it tells people that they can (and should) get content for free. - Lydia Dishman

Good point, Jane. The new model question begins and ends with what the reader will buy. - Tim Beyers

Yes, Tim, that's been a fundamental change worth noting. - Charles

When PW's list of the year's top novels is all male, I think the gatekeeping system can stand to be shaken up... - E.F. Slattery

Byron Krystad here from Seattle, checking in late. On the self-publishing theme that Jen continues, are writer/editor partnerships without traditional publishers a new model? Join quality product with social media distribution? Not sure about the "should be free" assumption by readers, though. - Byron Krystad

Is it normal for PW to release the year's top books when we have two months left of the year? I don't recall this. - Meryl K. Evans

Or do they go by a fiscal calendar instead of the yearly calendar? - Jen Nipps

Great question, Tim. What will the reader buy? - dee

Last question coming. Scroll to the top in 30 seconds. - Tim Beyers

It seems to me that if there were to be an innovation in the writer compensaton business model, any individual gains would be offset by unanticipated costs unless some kind of related value-add was incorporated with. - Willowbottom

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

We're on hiatus tonight, folks. Feel free to leave your reactions to the gag order story in the thread below, or suggest ideas for next week's topic if you're in the mood. See you back here next week, 8:30-10 pm eastern. #editorchat

October 14, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Whoa. That's something! The fact that the Guardian can't even reveal why it is under gag order makes it harder to have an opinion on this. I can think of reasons why the US government could put a pub under gag order -- could mean the safety of the country, for one. - Meryl K. Evans

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

There's always been a fine line between bloggers and journalists, but now the FTC has drawn the boundaries, for FB and Twitter too. We are wondering if this is fair, or if it goes too far.

October 7, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Is everyone familiar with the FTC ruling? - Tim Beyers

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No, can you share real quick? - JMegonigal

Sure, let me go get a link. - Tim Beyers

I've heard/seen hints about it, but nothing definite. - Jen Nipps

My first thought was that a statement would decrease the professionalism of my book reviews, making them personal when I'm trying more for NYT quality. - Georganna Hancock

Here's the FTC press release: http://www.ftc.gov/opa... - Tim Beyers

My read on this is that the FTC wants bloggers to act like journalists in avoiding potential conflicts. - Tim Beyers

Yes, I am. Good and bad. - Meryl K. Evans

I'm having an issue with the FTC page--won't let me scroll entire document. Conspiracy? :-) - Auldhouse Publishing

Thank goodness it's only a guideline and not law. - Georganna Hancock

Hahahahahaha. Spooky, Julia. Just spooky. - Tim Beyers

Can you expand on that, Georganna? Why thank goodness? - Tim Beyers

"The Guides are administrative interpretations of the law intended to help advertisers comply with the Federal Trade Commission Act; they are not binding law themselves." - Georganna Hancock

It'll make those getting paid to mention products admit this fact. Those doing book reviews will need to mention "Book provided by..." and that's OK. But I worry that it could skew reviews. I read a book that I won't review. I know the author (not friends or anything) and I can't give it more than 3 stars out of 5. - Meryl K. Evans

Meryl: how would disclosure skew a review? - Georganna Hancock

What I was getting at, Georganna, is: why do you prefer this not be law? Or am I reading your comment incorrectly? - Tim Beyers

The guidelines might put reviewer and provider in closer touch. Sometimes people don't feel the courage to say something bad after having made that connection. - Meryl K. Evans

Hmmm... Is this from this point forward or retroactive? Because if it's retroactive, I probably need to edit a few blog posts (a few book reviews, but not many). From this point forward, I have a book waiting for me at home that needs reviewed, so I'll need to put that disclosure on future reviews. - Jen Nipps

I don't know if getting a free copy of a book could skew a review. I am quite sure that everyone that reviews professionally gets free advance reader's copies of the books. - Lydia Dishman

Also, as we discuss this, I'd love to hear what disclosure rules you already abide by, and whether you think the FTC guidelines will impact what you're required to do. - Tim Beyers

Tim: I was thinking purely personally. I don't want to be forced to make such statements in some posts or articles. OTOH, maybe it will be better overall, but I tend to take everything on the net with the proverbial salt grain. - Georganna Hancock

I'm kind of ashamed to admit that before this, I didn't realize there were any disclosure guidelines for blogs. For interviews for articles & such, I'm always up-front and say what the interview is for and if it has been requested or is just for a query. - Jen Nipps

Are y'all familiar with Amazon Vine? What do you think when you read a review that says "Customer review from the Amazon Vine Program" - Meryl K. Evans

Meryl: the disclosure comes in the review, at the end of the process. How could that make for a closer relationship? Mine are usually with PR reps, but sometimes with authors. - Georganna Hancock

I actually don't -- at this point -- pay much attention to Amazon reviews. - Jen Nipps

Disclosure is an old habit for us at The Motley Fool, and with good reason. We're writing about stocks, but from the investor's POV. Thus, we're encouraged to own stock. All of my holdings are fully disclosed in my Fool profile, and every time I write about a stock I own, I disclose it specifically. - Tim Beyers

(That might soon change, though.) - Jen Nipps

What about beyond reviews? - Tim Beyers

Should a blogger be required to disclose the relationship to a source, if there is one? A journalist would say absolutely yes, correct? - Tim Beyers

What about when I have requested a book, access to a paid service, whatever else I might want to tell writers about? - Georganna Hancock

Tim--now you are talking about something I find very interesting as an employee of Microsoft and someone who hires industry authors to write books about Microsoft products. - Auldhouse Publishing

That's something I hadn't thought about with regard to blogging, Tim. But that's most likely because 99% of my blog entries are based on personal experience. - Jen Nipps

And what I mean by that was the recent articles about David Pogue writing reviews for NY Times and writing his own series of books. - Auldhouse Publishing

If the relationship to a source is more than professional (good friends, done business together, etc.) does it change things? - Lydia Dishman

I suppose it makes no difference if I request the item or have it foisted upon me, as is too often the case. - Georganna Hancock

And I think that's true of most blogs, Jen. That's why we worded the question as we did. Does the FTC ruling assume too much? Is it really necessary to govern disclosure in social media? - Tim Beyers

It's been a rough day -- maybe I need to take a break this evening. - Meryl K. Evans

Sorry to hear that, Meryl. Hope you feel better. - Tim Beyers

They'd better give us a code word for 140-character testimonials! - Georganna Hancock

Ooh, is it necessary to govern social media? Good question. - Auldhouse Publishing

I can't imagine "disclosing" tons more info on Facebook or Twitter. Me: "this product sucks. Oh, but I must tell you that they suck less for giving it to me for free." What?? - JMegonigal

I'll be honest: I think disclosure -- real, open kimono disclosure -- is the cure for most what ills reporters and writers who get accused of conflicts. Example: I doubt Pogue would have endured much outrage had every article ended with "David Pogue on occasion writes for-profit books about the products he reviews in this column." Or maybe that's already in a disclosure line in the Times? - Tim Beyers

(Sorry. Connection flaked out.) But, without going back to check for specific instances, I already tend to mention if someone as a source is a friend or someone I know otherwise. - Jen Nipps

I avoid a lot of these problems by not doing business with friends (although clients often become friends) and not giving bad reviews, unless I'm warning about a scam or fraud. - Georganna Hancock

Well said, Jordana. (Laughs.) - Tim Beyers

Take care, Meryl. - Jen Nipps

Good point re: scams/frauds, Georganna. - Jen Nipps

Let me throw a bomblet out there. While most journalists would probably agree that full disclosure is best -- indeed, required -- from an ethics standpoint, do we really want the government ruling on such matters? - Thomas Feyer

Good point Tim. I had assumed it was. - Auldhouse Publishing

Probably not, Thomas. But with things as they are, I don't know that it can/will be avoided. - Jen Nipps

Thomas, is it a ruling, or more "suggestion?" It makes a huge difference - JMegonigal

Good point Thomas. If the govt gets involved, then I bet that would also put more rules on the advertisers doing the word-of-mouth by handing out free stuff. Imagine if you had to have someone sign something in order to give them something for free. - Auldhouse Publishing

But, if I understand where the FTC is headed, reviews and endorsements made on a Facebook page are subject to the same restrictions as a blog would be. No word on whether Twitter would be affected. Wouldn't it be ironic if brevity created freedom in this case? - Tim Beyers

That'd bring a lot of the free samples and such to a *screeching* halt. - Jen Nipps

There has to be a guideline, and it is better if it is an universal one. So if not the gov't, then who should draft and police it? - Lydia Dishman

Thomas: the Times book review does not disclose that the publishers sent the reviewers books, galleys or ARCs, right? It's one of those "everybody knows it" things. - Georganna Hancock

Well, the govt has done a "like" thing in its regulation of pharma companies and their marketing to doctors – extreme limitations on what is allowed restrict a lot of the personal lobbying for drug pushing. - JMegonigal

Lydia, I would say it should be up to the journalistic and blogging community. - Thomas Feyer

A bomblet with a short fuse, Tom :-) But it's a good question and I *don't* relish the FTC governing this, because it assumes the blogosphere is equivalent to a journalistic institution -- part of the Fourth Estate. - Tim Beyers

Ideally, I would agree, Thomas. But if that were the case, the FTC guidelines would be largely unnecessary. - Jen Nipps

But can the government regulate the press as they do pharma cos? Probably not...that whole "first amendment" thing.... - JMegonigal

I'm not surprised that social media is included. Marketers are blitzing with sponsored tweets, etc. I think this is more about marketers / advertisers than it is about bloggers. - Becky

I have to agree w/what Meryl said earlier. I think the "connection" issue between writer/reviewer could skew a review. Coming in here late, so sorry if this has been covered. I want people to love my book, but because the LOVE it, not because they feel guilty after having touched base with me prior. - Hilary Wagner

Tom, okay, but don't you think there would be in-fighting to determine who could draw the rules up? And there are so many professional journalism associations, there would be a problem with that too, it seems. - Lydia Dishman

However, I always go back to this, that a blogger is liable for whatever s/he publishes. Because when you blog, you publish. - Becky

Hoo boy. That's another bomblet: Do bloggers enjoy the same first amendment protections as journalists? - Tim Beyers

I agree, Lydia. And that's a large part of the "ideally." lol - Jen Nipps

Yes, bloggers are covered by the first amendment and also subject to libel, etc. - Georganna Hancock

If you don't know the rules of publishing (even if you think they don't apply to you, they do), learn them. - Becky

I wasn't sure if blogs/bloggers would fall under the same protections/liabilities as journalists. I *thought* so, I hoped so, but I wasn't 100% sure. - Jen Nipps

Blogging is just as much publishing as any magazine, newspaper. Same as websites. - Georganna Hancock

Same protections and liabilities, but unfortunately not necessarily the same ethics standards. - Auldhouse Publishing

Ooh, Tim. That's come up recently with shield issues. Have you seen that? - Becky

Does anyone know if there have been court cases that test the responsibility of bloggers for what they say? - Thomas Feyer

I'm not so sure it's clear. We've already had a libel suit over a tweet. There's a broader argument that says anyone who publishes anything, anywhere, even in social media, is a publisher, and must behave like one. - Tim Beyers

Thomas, I know there have been but couldn't cite anything. I've heard about a blogging association or group that intended to help protect bloggers. - Becky

Found this one http://www.techdirt.com/article... - Auldhouse Publishing

Tim, you're right about the Twitter libel suit. Do you recall the details/outcome? - Thomas Feyer

Here's the suit over the tweet: http://www.businessinsider.com/tenant-... - Tim Beyers

$1.8 million worth of defamation. - Auldhouse Publishing

I'm catching up here ... yes, I believe a reviewer's relationship with a reviewee is important. - Becky

Good example, Julia. I couldn't cite anything either. - Georganna Hancock

Wow - Jen Nipps

LOL. It's also a lesson in not defaming a lawyer. - Auldhouse Publishing

Haven't the dirt-dishing Hollywood bloggers been sued by miffed stars? - Georganna Hancock

Maybe the FTC is seeing this suit and similar cases and deciding to give guidance? If so, good. The risk is that the rules become draconian. - Tim Beyers

If not, they should have been. lol - Jen Nipps

(Sorry. I'm actually biased against paparazzi/blog-arazzi.) - Jen Nipps

So a final question before we move on: Where's the line? When a product of value is at issue? Or should all relationships be disclosed? The Fool requires me to disclose more than the SEC requires, and I'm fine with that. Where do you stand? - Tim Beyers

I know that a lot of bloggers have kept themselves protected by putting a disclaimer on their blogs. Bloggers are obviously covered by the 1st amendment, but there is little legal precedent for online media. - Hilary Wagner

Disclose everything. - Becky

I think disclosure is great. I see no reason to hide it. - Auldhouse Publishing

Me neither. - Jen Nipps

A disclaimer is not protection. You can do everything right and STILL be sued. You might win. Eventually. But still cost $$$. Everyone who publishes needs to know that. - Becky

I recognize that no one can distinguish between a positive remark made because someone has been paid and honest praise, but still unhappy if it applies to my posts, reviews, and articles or tweets. - Georganna Hancock

You're right, Becky. I have a friend who has the disclaimer on her blog but still also puts the disclosure information on relevant posts. - Jen Nipps

Disclose. And let the blogosphere ferret out the nondisclosers -- it's already common now. - Thomas Feyer

Totally agreed, Becky. People are lawsuit happy these days. - Hilary Wagner

Okay, let's move on to the next question. Follow me to the next box. - Lydia Dishman

Seems we're for the spirit of the FTC guidelines, but we question whether the FTC needs to be involved, and whether governing social media is a good idea. (BTW: I wonder if a future #editorchat should be about whether social media equals publishing, and where *that* line begins and ends.) - Tim Beyers

Sounds like that might make for a good #editorchat, Tim. - Jen Nipps

they've actually not drawn much of a line, it's kinda squiggly if you read the entire text almost none of it is enforceable. #editorchat - Jessica Wilzig Gottlieb

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

And we are live, please introduce yourself as you join - and welcome :)

October 7, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Howday, howday! Becky here from Iow-ay! :) - Becky

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Hello--Juliana Atkinson-- by day planner for Microsoft Press and Learning, by night Publisher of Auldhouse Publishing. - Auldhouse Publishing

Welcome to tonight's #editorchat. Tim Beyers, co-host, Motley Fool tech contributor, and freelancer covering tech, business, and culture. - Tim Beyers

Hello! Freelance writer/editor/publishing consultant in San Diego. Blog: "A Writer's Edge" @GLHancock Hi Julia--glad to see you back. - Georganna Hancock

Discussing disclosure tonight. Full disclosure from me: Doing this in the family room, game on in the background, kids on the couch, hovering. - Tim Beyers

thanks! It has been a crazy past couple of months. I missed this chat. - Auldhouse Publishing

Hello to all, I'm your co-host, Lydia Dishman, freelance features writer online and in print. - Lydia Dishman

Welcome Georganna, Julia, and Beck-ay :-) - Tim Beyers

So glad I got all the IMAX boosting out of the way before this new FTC guideline -- they gave me a ton of crap! No really, I mean great goodies. Thanks & hi, Tim. - Georganna Hancock

Going to get the rules shortly. - Tim Beyers

Back in editorchat now...been a LONG time! - JMegonigal

Hey Jordana. Wow, it *has* been a long time. Welcome back. - Tim Beyers

Why thank you! Dont know how long I'll be able to stay, but I wanted to at least drop in... - JMegonigal

Meryl K from Tex-ay. Sorry... was channeling Iow-ay. - Meryl K. Evans

Tom Feyer, letters editor of The New York Times. But I speak only for myself, not the NYT. Full disclosure: the kids may come home any minute and then it's homework time. I'll try to hang in here as long as I can. - Thomas Feyer

Jordana, editor from Upstate South Carolina, here. - JMegonigal

Ha Meryl, I almost did that too ;-) - Lydia Dishman

LOL @ Meryl! ;) - Becky

Oops. I almost forgot tonight is Wednesday. lol. Jen, freelance writer in Oklahoma specializing in writing about writing, creativity, health, and plus-size issues. (Signed & mailed a contract for a book of devotions this morning.) - Jen Nipps

Congrats Jen! - Auldhouse Publishing

Great, Jen. You go girl! - Georganna Hancock

Second Auldhouse -- congrats, Jen! - Meryl K. Evans

Thank you! :) - Jen Nipps

Outstanding, Jen. So very happy for you. - Tim Beyers

Congrats Jen, I know how hard you've been working on that despite your computer challenges :) - Lydia Dishman

Congrats, Jen! - Becky

Good crowd. We'll get to the first question shortly, but as a reminder, tonight's topic is disclosure. Details: http://bit.ly/4xBChx - Tim Beyers

You all can continue to intro here, I'm moving up one box to intro the topic, so join when you are ready. - Lydia Dishman

Way to go, Jen! - Thomas Feyer

Jen, can you disclose anything more? Publisher? - Georganna Hancock

Publisher is Devoted Books, an imprint of AWOC Books (http://www.AWOCbooks.com) based in Texas. It's a small press. The book will be called "Devoted to Creating" and -- according to what I've been told -- should be out in November. - Jen Nipps

Thanks, everyone. I've been pretty excited since I got the contract by e-mail yesterday. Printed, signed, and mailed it this morning. - Jen Nipps

BTW...My connection isn't all that reliable, so I might appear to flake out, but I'll be back as soon as I can. - Jen Nipps

Hi everyone, Hilary here. Writer, pub date, Fall 2010 - Hilary Wagner

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

Well, it's that time. Please reintroduce yourselves before you go and provide a link if you'd like. #editorchat

September 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

heatherdune (twitter) heatherdune.com (web & blog) nonfiction and fiction writer, educator, Holocaust memorist, NPR... - GREENCHAT

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Hilary Wagner, www.nightshadecity.com, YA/MG Writer, 1st book, Fall 2010, Holiday House...and very bad housekeeper! ;) #editorchat - Hilary Wagner

Thanks for joining us all. Lydia Dishman, your co-host and freelance writer for print and online mags. Bronx born and bred - die hard Yankee fan ;-) - Lydia Dishman

I'm Suzi Steffen, an arts writer and editor at the Eugene Weekly in Eugene, Oregon. I also teach intro to reporting at the U of Oregon. But of course, all of the opinions I have expressed are my own. Finally, if any of you is interested, I'm helping host a Twitter for Reporters online chat Thursday, Oct. 15, at noon PDT/3EDT. We'd love to have you! @ me on Twitter. - Suzi Steffen

twitter.com/GLHancock Bye, all. Thanks, Lydia and Tim. - Georganna Hancock

Becky in Iowa, SO not ready for another winter but freezing already. Wah. You can find me at Deep Muck Big Rake. Thanks for another great chat! - Becky

Thanks to everyone for joining us. Tim Beyers, Motley Fool tech contributor, freelance writer covering tech, business, and culture. Made my Fast Company debut last week: http://www.fastcompany.com/blog... - Tim Beyers

Tim, Lydia and everyone, thanks for having me! This was great! xoxo -- HW -- hilarywagner1 on twitter - Hilary Wagner

Thanks for the interesting discussion, all. Michelle Goodman, freelance writer focusing on careers, self-employment, work/life balance, money. And author of a couple Seal Press books on freelancing. Thanks for the interesting discussion, all. Michelle Goodman, freelance writer focusing on careers, self-employment, work/life balance, money. And author of a couple Seal Press books on freelancing. http://www.anti9to5guide.com - Michelle Goodman

Victoria Mixon, freelance editor, long-time fiction, nonfiction, and technical writer and journalist, co-author Children and the Internet: A Zen Guide for Parents and Educators. I blog on the craft of fiction at http://victoriamixon.com. Thank you, Lydia and Tom and everyone. Good night! - Victoria Mixon

Wendy Wetzel in Michigan, freelance copyeditor. Thanks! - Wendy Wetzel

Me Brooklyn Dodgers and Texas Rangers fan! Dad was born and bred in Brooklyn... they shoulda never gone to LA! - Meryl K. Evans

Tim, congrats on the Fast Company debut! Thanks for pointing. Checking it out now. - Meryl K. Evans

I invite you all to follow me on Twitter: @tomfeyer. E-mail: tomfeyer@nytimes.com. On Facebook and LinkedIn as well. Please send me short, smart, witty letters! - Thomas Feyer

Congrats, Tim! - Michelle Goodman

Thanks, Meryl and Michelle. For those who don't know, Lydia has been writing there for more than a month now. She's writing some great stuff. (As if you're surprised.) - Tim Beyers

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Q2: In light of WaPo's policy to curb reporters from using SM to spout opinions on news, is it ever okay for reporters to have opinions?

September 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Suzi from Eugene, Ore., here. I think it's fairly clear from the Twitter responses to the stringent rules of the WaPo that many reporters and editors don't agree with the new SM policy. - Suzi Steffen

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I'm teaching a class on media bias right now. Sadly, none of my students believe that anyone in the media reports without bias! And their first paper had to be an unbiased analysis of media response to Carson's Silent Spring--you'd think I'd asked them to fly to the moon! Why is it SO hard to analyze and report facts without bias? - GREENCHAT

I'd like to add that we are not restricting the discussion to news reporters, we want to know what all writers and editors think. - Lydia Dishman

I'd argue that it's impossible, @heatherdune. Far better to be transparent. (I'm with @mathewi on that one.) - Suzi Steffen

Isn't bias human nature? Exorcising it from the reporting process is difficult because we're human. - Tim Beyers

To be biased is to be human. The bias has no place in news reporting. Certainly it has a place elsewhere -- isn't that what OpEd is all about? And editorials. And personal essays. etc - Georganna Hancock

But didn't the greats report simply facts? Didn't it change drastically once we loss the regulations to protect media monopolies? - GREENCHAT

Tim, exactly. I tweeted about this with someone else. We can't remove our humanity, yet it's our humanity that makes us who we are. - Meryl K. Evans

If a reporter is blogging in addition to filing straight news pieces, there's bound to be opinion creeping in there. Isn't there? - Michelle Goodman

Suzi, I'm not sure the issue is resolved. I'd be curious to hear what Tom thinks about this, but on the whole I'd say a great many journalists and biographers and magazine writers believe unbiased reporting is still alive and (mostly) well. - Tim Beyers

Human nature forces us to have a bias one way or the other. It's very rare we don't have an opinion on something, even when we say we don't. I think much of what reporters do should be based on the people that sign the check. After all, the reporter agreed to work there. If the boss wants you to pipe in great, if not and you want to say your peace, maybe it's time to look for another job. - Hilary Wagner

There are pervasive biases that studies show come into play in most US reporting — ie that France and England are generally allies and generally correct, etc. etc. I think that's why it looks odd when we see Al Jazeera or, actually, even French reporting on headscarves, etc. We have massively different overarching cultural beliefs that bias every story. - Suzi Steffen

@heatherdune: Honestly, I don't know. But I think some of the great business writers have a way of humanly analyzing a company and its strategy -- and we're the better for it. I'm thinking of David Kirkpatrick at Fortune, for example. - Tim Beyers

A good writer keeps bias out of his or her writing. It may appear as the choice of topic. I agree that the "I am a camera" type of reporting has disappeared. - Georganna Hancock

So are answering the question? Do we mostly think bias doesn't belong in reporting of any type? I'm speaking of newspaper, magazine, biography, and similar formats. - Tim Beyers

For me it is the old adage: Show Don't Tell. Show me the facts don't tell me what to think. Let me think for myself. The facts, if reported without bias, will take me there--where ever that is! Lately, I find there is way more Telling than Showing. - GREENCHAT

I agree with Heather. Sometimes I just want the reporter to shut it. - Hilary Wagner

Show don't tell is a great mechanism, and not just for eliminating bias. For me, show don't tell is a basic rule of writing. Treat readers as if they're smart and they'll reward you by reading further. Disagree? - Tim Beyers

Tim, are you using the term "reporting" to indicate more than news? - Georganna Hancock

But Tim, what does that have to do with WaPo's social media policy? It sounds like we're speaking about articles, but the policy is about Twitter, blogging, Facebook, etc. Obviously reporters have opinions. For one thing, we often know way more about the topics than other people, so we have more informed opinions (sometimes). - Suzi Steffen

Good point, Heather. Show Don't Tell applies to all kinds of writing. - Victoria Mixon

Hillary: Sure, that makes sense. Too many reporters step over the line. But commentary is just as ancient and respected an art as reporting, isn't it? So long as a reporter isn't trying to be a commentator, I don't mind. It's when the two mix that trouble arises. - Tim Beyers

Suzi, the question is really whether reporters can put their opinion out there in places other than news stories - Lydia Dishman

Georganna: I'm using the term reporting to reflect writing that's factual and unbiased, regardless of the medium in which it appears. - Tim Beyers

Isn't the WaPo policy intruding on employees' private lives? - Georganna Hancock

Sorry, I had to switch computers so my son could do some homework, but I'm back now. I hear from a lot of readers who believe that bias belongs on the opinion pages, not the news pages. But it is not always so clear-cut; what is intended as analysis is sometimes read as opinion. (By the way, I should note that I speak only for myself here, not my organization.) - Thomas Feyer

Good point, Suzi. I got off track. - Tim Beyers

I noticed lately in regards to commentary, and this is on the news mind you, the commentary is bordering on rhetoric. The lines are getting a bit blurred. - Hilary Wagner

Well, reporters can't put their opinions in objective news articles, either. So they're talking about forbidding them to express any opinions in writing at all. - Victoria Mixon

Yes, Hilary. That's exactly what I've been ranting about. - Georganna Hancock

I think WaPo is right on to pull themselves out of Twitter, but can't reporters use Twitter to report facts? Not opinion? That's how we used it during #iranelection - GREENCHAT

Ha, me too, Tim. ;-) I do think the policy interferes with their private lives. - Suzi Steffen

Everyone has opinions, and journalists are no different. However, I think it's important to write as a "disinterested" party. That's where the idea of a conflict of interest comes in. - Becky

Becky's right. So to the question at hand: Does being a social media participant create a conflict of interest? Isn't that at the heart of the new WaPo rules? - Tim Beyers

Are news journalists no longer taught how to write, excuse me, "fair and balanced" articles? - Georganna Hancock

It's not impossible to be objective. I see it often in my local newspaper and online articles on high quality sites. It's as if these are a rarity, but not in my view. - Meryl K. Evans

Reporters should be entitled to their own views, but perhaps responsibly qualify it with a disclaimer. - Charles

I agree w/Becky. Columnists are OpEd people we might follow, but I don't know that I want reporters on twitter, unless they are behind the scene. - GREENCHAT

Or reporters can simply use a pseudonym, no? - GREENCHAT

About the WaPo tweet? That was typical of opinions expressed with peers, say, on the copy desk. But something put out there for the world to see by expressing ... oh, what a jerk this particular celeb is or whatever ... that's inappropriate it tomorrow you will be writing or editing something ABOUT that celeb or someone in that circle. - Becky

Okay, I guess it's my turn to throw a fire bomb: I want reporters on Twitter, and I want them engaging. This does not mean they have be a part of the story. But if news breaks and Twitter is alight with commentary, I want those speaking to be comfortable talking with the reporters who are there among them. - Tim Beyers

If we had Twitter back in the day, and my colleague tweeted, "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" when Nixon died instead of one or two copy editors? Umm, yeah. Completely inappropriate. - Becky

Ann Curry is one of the few people I follow on Twitter. I love her tweets, and she does not hesitate to show her bias. If it's good enough for NBC, what's wrong with WaPo? - Georganna Hancock

Perhaps it's different in the arts arena. Often, especially at smallish papers, we have to write previews, reviews and news stories. So obviously we have opinions, and we often express them in public. (Re Tim's fire bomb, I'm in complete agreement.) - Suzi Steffen

Put differently: if you remove reporters from Twitter, you remove any chance of man on the scene reporting in the era of the Social Web. - Tim Beyers

Good Point Tim--if we had Twitter during China, Burma... as we did in Iran. It's a new world out there. - GREENCHAT

Really good reporters are educated on the issues and have a better chance of expressing solid, educated opinions. - Victoria Mixon

Maybe I'm to optimistic here, but what about common sense? Can we not trust reporters to participate in the Social Web wile avoiding conflicts of interest? - Tim Beyers

YOu know on second thought, I agree with Georganna--anyone see WaPo lately? It's pitiful, thin and not the paper it once was. Perhaps this policy is more like a gag order? - GREENCHAT

In Chicago, we have this reporter, Ed Curran, every week he jumps on Twitter and/or Facebook asking our comments on a hot topic. He does not give his comments, other then commenting on ours. He's pretty even handed with showing the sides for and against. It really gets viewers interested in what he's talking/tweeting about and therefore gets US talking. Isn't that the whole point? - Hilary Wagner

That's a tricky one, especially with the less experienced reporters who have no mentorship for this kind of thing - Lydia Dishman

Lydia, that's why I asked what they are being taught these days. - Georganna Hancock

I want to see journalists involved in SM. However, it is ultimately up to employers / news organizations to decide how it will be used because they ARE represented by their employees. - Becky

In Dallas, many of our TV news reporters are regulars in Twitter. They do a good job of using Twitter and interacting. So it could be the culture affecting the reporters. - Meryl K. Evans

I think we do want journalists on Twitter. But have the reporters report (and analyze), and the commentators opine. I'm on the opinion side of the divide, but as letters editor I don't give my opinions on Twitter, except innocuous ones (e.g. I'm a Yankee fan). - Thomas Feyer

Let's keep going on this one. And yes, this is your killjoy warning: We'll be doing reintros in 5 minutes and then closing the doors at 10 pm EDT. - Tim Beyers

So we have to trust our sources? Well, some people listen to Rush Limbaugh. No one stops them. If I want to follow Ed Curran I should be able to, no? - GREENCHAT

Tom: You are now officially my favorite NY Times editor. (Born in Glen Cove, moved to CA in 1978, CO in 1997, Yankees fan my entire life.) - Tim Beyers

There's a difference between what you do on company time and what you do on your own time. - Victoria Mixon

Not if your a Yankee fan!;) - GREENCHAT

Victoria, to a point. - Becky

[I have to say my goodbyes now! Thanks everyone for a wonderful time once again. Thanks Tim and Lydia] - Charles

Thanks, Charles! - Hilary Wagner

Thanks Charles. See you next week. - Tim Beyers

If I have a Twitter account as a NYT reporter? Then I ALWAYS represent NYT, no matter when I tweet. - Becky

Yes, Becky. But where's that point? - Victoria Mixon

G'night, Charles! - Becky

Oh, yes. If your account or blog represents your company. Yes, it belongs to them. - Victoria Mixon

What next from WaPo? Telling them what to wear? Wait. In the early 70's the female staff members of the paper I worked at were told to wear bras. We had to. - Georganna Hancock

But who owns our name? - GREENCHAT

I have several Twitter accounts. Personal use, one for the paper, one for my students. They're all public, but I don't overlap the paper with my stuff. - Suzi Steffen

A final question for you all: Did you like this format better? Instead of one topic and related questions, we covered two topics we've seen in the news. Better? Worse? - Tim Beyers

Tim, I like both. This worked because the topics went well together. But, then ... just about everything y'all do on #editorchat works. :) - Becky

About the same -- it's all about the conversation we have and everyone makes it work with their brilliant insights. Not too insightful tonight myself, I'm afraid. - Meryl K. Evans

Yeah, I'm totally brown-nosing. Teacher's pet. Yadda, yadda. - Becky

This is my first time here and I really liked this format. - Hilary Wagner

I liked it! I'm over the FriendFeed curve, and this seems much clearer (and for those of us who are still at work when it starts, it's nice to know there's still something coming). - Suzi Steffen

First time too... loved it. I'm using this in my media class next week and will update my profile! - GREENCHAT

Excellent. We may keep experimenting so stay tuned. Scroll to the top to reintroduce yourself before you leave. Include a link if you'd like. - Tim Beyers

This is my first time using FF, but I liked it -- and the format. - Michelle Goodman

Good format, good discussion. Tom Feyer, NYT letters editor, Yankee fan - Thomas Feyer

Thanks, Tom. Hope we see you again. - Tim Beyers

Content maven, writer and editor who plays with words for a livin' from Plano, TX and so not a Yankees fan (ducks). - Meryl K. Evans

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Tonight's topic is language...and heart. First Q In an age of instant books and throw-it-on-the-Web-see-if-it-sticks reporting, does evocative language still matter?

September 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Yes. How's that for evocative? ;) - Michelle Goodman

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In memory of William Safire, "YES!" - Meryl K. Evans

It will always matter to those who love it. But does it matter more than what sells fastest? - Wendy Wetzel

Ha ha ha - we try for explanations after yes and no Michelle ;-) - Lydia Dishman

In literary writing, of course. Did it ever belong in journalism? - Georganna Hancock

(I just made myself depressed.) - Wendy Wetzel

Sadly, I've noticed that some web editors have low standards. One at a national site even told me I didn't have to make it perfect. That made me sad. Then again, their rates aren't perfect. - Michelle Goodman

Yes, very much so. I'm so glad to be among colleagues who are in total agreement. - Charles

So, I think it matters even more in journalism than elsewhere because of the nature of a constrained medium. Evocative language is tight, vivid, whispers in the readers ear. - Tim Beyers

Was watching the Ken Burns film on national parks on PBS last night and there was a great bit of writing from Mark Twain's travel writing days, about a volcanic park he went to. The language he used literally put him on the writing map. I was envious. I have seen writer pals get contacted by agents and editors for their caliber of writing. I think it still matters. To some of us. Maybe not to anyone over 27 though? ;) - Michelle Goodman

Evocative language can take a straight report and turn it into a multi-dimensional story - Lydia Dishman

(Applause.) Exactly, my friend. - Tim Beyers

I should add that the Twain bit was written for a newspaper... - Michelle Goodman

I believe that thoughtful, cogent argument expressed in evocative but civil language is one way to separate ourselves from the raw material in the blogosphere. - Thomas Feyer

RT Lydia Dishman: Evocative language can take a straight report and turn it into a multi-dimensional story -- Beautiful! - Meryl K. Evans

Facts are facts, but language can make a person care. - Wendy Wetzel

The second rule of journalism my editor slammed me with: don't editorialize! Meaning, keep my opinions to myself. Colorful language does not fit with news reporting, IMHO. - Georganna Hancock

Bravo Tim, and, amen Tom. - Lydia Dishman

This week I picked up two anthologies: The Best American Sports Writing and The Best American Science Writing. So far, I'm three stories into the sports anthology and I'm *loving* it. Great imagery. Wonderful use of language. Outstanding storytelling. I kept saying to myself: "I want to write more stuff like this." - Tim Beyers

More great comments from Thomas and Wendy. Puts my "Yes" to shame. - Meryl K. Evans

I mention this because, to Tom's point, I wonder if language is the lost art that can become a competitive advantage. Disagree? - Tim Beyers

I've never been too interested in travel writing, and then I read a few stories that made me realize -- it's all in the writing. These stories blew me away. So, yes, evocative writing matters. Unless you don't want people to read your stuff. - Meryl K. Evans

Anyone who can employ color -without crossing the opinion line- has the advantage of capturing the reader's imagination. ALWAYS a plus in any format. - Lydia Dishman

I would agree, Tim. I might read several things about the same idea/event/person but remember or pass on one because the language makes it resonate or stick with me. - Wendy Wetzel

Tim, I agree. I know writers offered gigs based on the quality of their writing. I consider every article and blog post a sample and a portfolio piece. Though I've had to turn in my share of mediocre copy on deadline, it always pains me to do so. - Michelle Goodman

Evocative language helps most in headlines, especially on the Web. - Deb Markham

Wendy, TOTALLY. And brilliant writing + looking at a tired topic from a fresh angle is even more wowing. - Michelle Goodman

I work for a software development company in Chicago and our goal is to get our developers published. We work to make their writing better than industry standard jargon. It's tough, but it's paid off. They're getting published! - Hilary Wagner

Poor language may sell today, but it won't live tomorrow. Flannery O'Connor said, "Many a bestseller could have been prevented by a good writing teacher." - Victoria Mixon

The process of chasing and stitching together facts can obscure the truth that, as writers, we're paid to tell a story in a clear, concise, accurate, and I would say evocative manner. isn't this what Safire argued for? - Tim Beyers

That's awesome Hilary. Too often technical writing is like hitting the snooze button at the end of every sentence, indefinitely. - Lydia Dishman

Sigh! I suppose "creative nonfiction" has invaded straight news reporting now? - Georganna Hancock

Michelle offered a good example of use of evocative language, does anyone else have others? - Lydia Dishman

Yes, I'm not technical! Heck, I write about rats! If I can get interested in reading about C# and Java coding, something amazing has happened! - Hilary Wagner

Georganna, I don't think creativity belongs in all kinds of journalism--you're right, sometimes it should be just the facts. - Wendy Wetzel

Maybe it has, Georganna. And perhaps I'm biased because I began as a sports reporter, and I remember Jim Murray's old columns for the L.A. Tmes. But it seems to me that our very best reporters and columnists had a way of storytelling that captured readers and kept them coming back. - Tim Beyers

We can split hairs over "creative non-fiction" but I'd personally prefer, for example, to read quotes that are prefaced by something other than "He said" or "She said." Mixing up the verbs is creative use of language that doesn't add opinion or change fact, but keeps the writing lively. - Lydia Dishman

Opinionating the news certainly is in view on TV, and I don't like to see it at all. To my mind, it destroys credibility. Everyplace else, I'm all for evocative writing. Colorful, an exercise of my huge vocabulary. I love that. - Georganna Hancock

Storytelling is the heart of writing. Without it we're just reporting facts with very little human connectivity. - Charles

This is good. So let's take this topic a layer deeper. When is just-the-facts reporting the only appropriate approach? - Tim Beyers

Thanks Tim, and let's add Tom's bit about how it may distinguish reporting from the blogosphere. - Lydia Dishman

Reporters are accused of "opinionating" even when they write straight. With that in mind, what's the point of fighting the creative forms? - Deb Markham

Tim, probably in blow-by-blow political reporting (say of the latest health care reform updates from Congress), since it's such a volatile topic. Unless it's an op-ed of course - Michelle Goodman

Tim: that's a tricky question because we need to consider the reader. While the facts usually suffice, they alone can't carry the same message as the story would. Do we want people to just read facts and move along or read stories and stick around? - Charles

Separately, I want to share the best lead sentence I've ever seen: "On the day he decided to pay a man to cut off his leg with a power saw, Tom White woke up with a powerful yearning to run." From Runner's World and written by Bruce Barcott in the story 'Life and Limb" - Tim Beyers

Just the facts? Say you're reporting breaking news about a car crash. No need for extra stuff. You can write about what was in the victim's pockets when you're writing about his life later. - Becky

Oooh, I'd read that story (about the amputee). - Michelle Goodman

Tim, that is some lede! You can't go wrong with "power saw.'' - Thomas Feyer

For me, it's hard to read the news when it has anything to do with a child. I think in that case, a child being harmed, it should strictly be facts. It's hard enough to read already. - Hilary Wagner

I agree with Becky--when just information is needed. And when little is known, so that elaborating would really be speculating. - Wendy Wetzel

So we've got Congressional hearings and car wrecks. Anything else? Any more dissenters? Could we say that all nonfiction is creative because it's written by a human being? - Tim Beyers from IM

That's a really good point, Hillary. I concur all the way. - Charles

If we don't confine ourselves to discussing newspapers, a wide field of flowery writing spreads before us. - Georganna Hancock

Barbara Kingsolver's nonfiction provides an excellent example of hammering home a point with evocative, beautiful phrase turns. - Georganna Hancock

Who says we're confined to newspapers? Sprout all you like, Georganna. - Tim Beyers from IM

Well, Tim, like banks and money, newspapers is where we usually, but not always, find the news. I could have just stopped at "news". - Georganna Hancock

For those who haven't been playing along at home all these weeks, a small reminder: #editorchat is about all types of publishing from news to magazine features and books. - Lydia Dishman

Isn't it, Tom? What encourages me most is that it was a sports story. There are days when I really miss the freedom of sportswriting. The Little League baseball games and screaming parents? Not so much. - Tim Beyers

I'm a fan of writers who throw comedy in their non-fiction. When you're reviewing the best and worst microwaves of 2009, I feel humor would be most welcome! - Hilary Wagner

I have to admit I really miss reading and writing language with heart. It's in my blood but I've been so distracted with modern day blogging, marketing, emails, twitter and other more sterile communication modes. (Sigh) - Charles

I think evocative language in appropriate writing forms is still important to those of us who love language, who are well-educated, and, probably, are over 40 or 50 years of age. - Georganna Hancock

Before we leave this topic, let's flip the coin: When is just-the-facts reporting a missed opportunity? Where do you see it happen most? - Tim Beyers

Isn't it ironic that blogging has less heart Charles? I thought you'd be freer to express whatever on a blog. - Lydia Dishman

Georganna, in terns of age, are you referring to writers or readers or both? - Tim Beyers

Some of the most beautiful writing I've read came from journalists. Read Jim Sheeler or Tracy Thompson sometime. Sheeler stabs you right in the heart with plain and perfect prose. Thompson can take the most complex subject and make it easy to understand AND a joy to read. - Becky

I had readers in mind, but since you mentioned them, probably writers, too. - Georganna Hancock

Right, Lydia, I thought the same, but nowadays blogs are being used more for business and marketing than free expression. - Charles

Good recs, Becky. Any others, folks? - Tim Beyers

I use my blog to polish my creative nonfiction voice in speaking to aspiring writers about the craft of fiction. - Victoria Mixon

E. Hemingway. - Georganna Hancock

Yep, Hemingway is a good one. Any in the modern era? Newspaper and magazine writers you particularly like? - Tim Beyers from IM

Talese. - Lydia Dishman

Erik Larson - Becky

Yes. To both. - Tim Beyers

I use my blog to polish my CNF voice as well. I find editors often edit the voice though, but isn't writing in any form all about love of language? - GREENCHAT

Simon Worrall, writes for NG etc. - GREENCHAT

A good editor polishes the voice, not changes it. I find this is a common concern in clients, actually. - Victoria Mixon

Tom Wolfe for me. The Right Stuff is some of the best use of evocative language I've ever read. - Tim Beyers

Good editors, yes. Seems many are too new and too busy to develop that artful skill. Back to the topic, I guess--are we all too busy to write AND read well? - GREENCHAT

I am constantly reading about-to-be-published books and writing reviews of them. Fortunately, I have only self-imposed deadlines, so I can polish as much as I wish. - Georganna Hancock

Scroll to the top of the screen to see Q2. Time to talk bias. - Tim Beyers

Editorchat: Tim Beyers

Please introduce yourselves as I go to the rules. Tweeps, we're on FriendFeed at http://friendfeed.com/editorc... #editorchat

September 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Rule No. 1 Observers welcome but #editorchat is for those who are, or those who work with, editors. - Tim Beyers

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Rule No. 2 Stay on topic. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Rule No. 3. Courteous comments, please. (Thank you, sir. Ma’am.) #editorchat - Tim Beyers

I'm Hilary, my first book, YA Animal Fantasy, comes out Fall 2010, Holiday House #editorchat - Hilary Wagner

And everyone’s favorite rule — Rule No. 4. Spammers will be electrocuted. (Your computer *is* wired, pal.) #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Rule No. 5 No crickets. We're here to chat; come join us. #editorchat - Tim Beyers

Here again... what did ya expect? (: - Meryl K. Evans

San Diego freelance editor/writer/dogsbody. Vet journo. Cougar. English language lover. - Georganna Hancock

Hillary, great to see you here. Meryl: We wouldn't have it any other way. - Tim Beyers from IM

Thanks! Right now, I'm working w/Julie Amper from Holiday House, she's awesome! - Hilary Wagner

Welcome Georganna. I'll go next: Tim Beyers, your co-moderator, Motley Fool tech contributor, and freelancer covering business, technology, and culture. - Tim Beyers from IM

Editor, blogger, content marketer here in Hawaii. Aloha everyone. - Charles

Wendy Wetzel, freelance editor and occasional copywriter. - Wendy Wetzel

Hi all! Michelle Goodman, freelance writer focusing on careers, business, and work/life balance. - Michelle Goodman

Charles, Wendy: Good to see you both. How's the tropical weather today, Charles? We're going to be envious of your ever-present sunshine very soon. - Tim Beyers from IM

Hey Michelle! Long time. Too long, in fact. Glad you could make it. - Tim Beyers from IM

Thanks, Tim. It's good to be back. - Michelle Goodman

Tom Feyer here; I'm letters editor of The New York Times. - Thomas Feyer

Hi Tom. Glad you could make it tonight. - Tim Beyers from IM

Welcome Tom - no fighting with the teens now ;-) - Lydia Dishman

I have to admit it's very nice here. I'm in shorts and a tshirt with the windows open. 74.5 degrees. - Charles

I'm in a turtleneck...that's not cool - Hilary Wagner

Hi Charles, It's mild here too, however it is dark now. - Lydia Dishman

We're having mostly beautiful weather in the Dallas area. Got a little warm this afternoon, but beautiful mornings and early evenings. - Meryl K. Evans

We'll give Charles a pass, Hillary. He's a long-time friend of chat. :-) - Tim Beyers from IM

Lydia: I have the teens at bay -- for now, at least. - Thomas Feyer

By the way, does that sound very talk show of me? "I'm here with Charles, a long-time friend of the show ..." :-) - Tim Beyers from IM

Don't worry folks, I still have bills and a mortgage to keep up with. It's not all paradise. ;) - Charles

My little guy is in here with me. He just announced that he's cold without a blanket, but hot with a blanket. Yeah... that time of the year! Cold in the AM -- need jacket. Jacket in backpack when he comes home. - Meryl K. Evans

Yep. Same here in Colorado, Meryl. Could have snow and freezing rain tonight. - Tim Beyers from IM

roll up to see the question folks - Lydia Dishman

And for the record, I lived in Alaska for a total of 15 years. Now that's cold and dark! - Charles

Victoria Mixon, freelance editor, I write blog posts on the craft of fiction. - Victoria Mixon

Okay Charles, after reading the Alaska comment, you totally deserve to live in paradise! - Hilary Wagner

Deb Markham, online producer (editor), at HamptonRoads.com/PilotOnline. Hello. :) - Deb Markham

Ack! Sorry I'm late. You still discussing? Becky from Iow-ay here. - Becky

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Question 2 Editors: Are you planning and formatting more content for e-readers? How much work does this add? #editorchat

September 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I've got to jump and finish some stuff - have a good night, all. - Erik Sherman

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I'm interested in both aspects of this question but especially the latter. - Tim Beyers

Thanks, Erik. Write strong. - Tim Beyers

Great to see you, Erik. Have a good one. - Jen Nipps

I think I've got to sit this question out. - Jen Nipps

My guess is that content management systems handle a lot of this work already. And I know from an assignment I have currently that many publishers are using the DocBook XML schema for tagging and cataloging e-book content. But I'm not sure how, or if, editors get involved. - Tim Beyers

I am all ready if I get a client who wants such services. - Georganna Hancock

I think it's wait-and-see, obviously. I'm working on a mobile version of the site, so that's a starting point. In some ways, what I do makes more sense for a mobile format. - Ernie Smith

Yeah, sitting out again... - Meryl K. Evans

Certainly does, Ernie. Guess we're wondering if mobile and e-readers are considered a medium in of themselves. We think that way about the Web, and TV and print. Seems to me that we're headed in this direction. (Hence the rights question below.) - Tim Beyers

I'm really waiting for a color version to explode the market before writing specific mobile or e-reader code. - Christopher Spencer

What I'm trying to do is format the mobile version of the site in a way where I don't have to do a ton of work to make it happen. Much of it is staffing – keeping things simple and easy to update. If it's a lot of extra work, it's not worth it. - Ernie Smith

Let's frame this a little differently. Has anyone here written in the e-book format or written a piece specifically for the mobile format? (BlackBerry, Kindle, iPhone, etc.) - Tim Beyers from IM

Writing on the web is not all translatable to the tiny screen. - Georganna Hancock

I'll say that WordPress in Opera and Skyfire and iPhone's Safari seems just like the laptop version. - Christopher Spencer

I've created eBooks as .PDF files. Investigated syndicating through Kindle. - Georganna Hancock

I disagree. Writing on the Web is completely translatable to the tiny screen. It's all in what you write. If you're blogging akin to something like TechCrunch, then it makes a lot of sense. - Ernie Smith

But if you're writing longer pieces, maybe not so much. - Ernie Smith

Ernie It's the same difference as that between the printed page and on a monitor. Write differently. - Georganna Hancock

Sorry, not sure I understand what difference that is... I can read the NY Times on the page or on the monitor--same writing. - E.F. Slattery

IMO, I think that would depend on the req's of the individual publication as to if it would be different on the tiny screen or not. (Personally, how can anyone really READ that??) - Jen Nipps

Let's get everyone on the record, then. Will we need to write differently for these different formats? I like what Christopher said about this before. - Tim Beyers

Hey Erin. Monitor and tiny screen are different. Monitor to Kindle also a different experience, no? - Tim Beyers

Tim, I don't understand how Kindle and related are doing well. We're on our monitors all day... don't our eyes need a break from the screen? I'm as geeky as can be... but still like my print. - Meryl K. Evans

As I understand, the NYT online is not a duplicate of the printed paper. - Georganna Hancock

Sure, Tim; I'm just trying to pin down whether this question is about shaping reader experiences w/ formatting--or about re-shaping the kind of writing for different formats... Both interesting questions. - E.F. Slattery

Meryl, I'm with you. Much as I like my Kindle, so far I've used it only for reviewing Fool newsletters I've emailed to the device for when I've got free time to read what my colleagues are writing. - Tim Beyers

Thanks for the mention. I'm enjoying the conversation. Signed up to friendfeed just for it. Pardon my adjustments to the new format. - Christopher Spencer

Georganna: I stand by what I say. Reading a news article on my iPhone doesn't strain me. - Ernie Smith

Erin, because the question was geared toward editors I'd say the latter. - Lydia Dishman

But I can see where some articles might not fit the format. Ditto the Kindle. - Ernie Smith

Christopher, many of us are new to the format, you are not alone. - Lydia Dishman

Thanks, Lydia. // My understanding of the Kindle and other e-readers is that they use screen tech that makes the eye experience comparable to reading print, less eye strain. - Christopher Spencer

Well, since I'll be working with book-length works, I can see serializing parts, or sending out chapters, for mobile formats. Stanza and DailyLit, among others, seem to do this pretty well without a lot of reshaping of content. (Full disclosure: I have a cookbook coming out on DailyLit.) - E.F. Slattery

I'm personally in the tactile camp. I don't mind scrolling to read a long feature, but I really enjoy turning pages. - Lydia Dishman

So back to the question, once more refining: Besides the PDF files that you mentioned Georganna, is anyone writing -- talking form, not design -- with constrained formats in mind? E-readers in particular? We seem to be well suited for it given Twitter. - Tim Beyers

Probably a bit off-topic, sorry if it is, is the print size on eReaders, like the Kindle, adjustable? - Jen Nipps

Pretty sure it is, Jen. Yes. - Tim Beyers

Not intentionally, Tim, though I find at times I have to work to stretch wordcount out to minimum lengths at times. - Jen Nipps

Good to know. Thanks, Tim. - Jen Nipps

If I had decided to syndicate my blog via Kindle, I'd probably start writing with that in mind, just as I do now for Twitter. The first several words of my post appear in my Twitter stream. - Georganna Hancock

Has that changed your writing, Georganna? Knowing that you only have a few words to get the post noticed via Twitter? - Tim Beyers

Absolutely! I have to sharpen my hook! - Georganna Hancock

It really stretches me, like the title, too. Never was a hed ed. - Georganna Hancock

Next Q? - Georganna Hancock

We are going to wrap early tonight. Give us an out-tro and a link if you'd like. - Lydia Dishman

Folks, I need to cut out. My current Fool colleague and ex-editor is in town and I'm picking him up. (Hence, this being the DIA edition of #editorchat.) I enjoyed this one. - Tim Beyers

'Night everyone, and see you next week. - Tim Beyers

Good to see you, Tim. Have a good one. - Jen Nipps

Out-tro's in this thread or will there be a new one? - Jen Nipps

You too, Jen. Thanks all. - Tim Beyers

Thanks, Lydia & Tim. - Georganna Hancock

Enjoy your time with your foolish colleague, Tim ;) - Meryl K. Evans

Thanks, that raised some great questions. Look forward to the next one! :) Erin (http://theghostinthepantry.wordpress.com) and http://www.channelvbooks.com. Tim, say hi to the DIA tents for me--I grew up in Denver. ;) - E.F. Slattery

Good talking with you all. Till next time. I'm headed to WordCamp Birmingham this weekend, by the way. I'm gonna document what's there at www.ozarksunbound.com/extra if you are interested. - Christopher Spencer

Good chat as always. :D - Ernie Smith

Out-tro: Jen Nipps, fl writer based in Oklahoma but currently in Eureka Springs, AR, at the Writers Colony. Best places to find me online: www.jenifernipps.com & www.jensorganizedwriter.wordpress.com, other than Twitter (@jennipps) - Jen Nipps

'night all, thanks very much for coming and sharing your thoughts and opinions :) Lydia Dishman co-host, freelance writer and contributor to Fast Company, Entrepreneur Mag and others online and in print ;-) - Lydia Dishman

I love Fast Company. The level of creativity seems head-and-shoulders above many other online pubs. - E.F. Slattery

Ernie Smith, nerd behind ShortFormBlog. And Express! Based in D.C. or something. :D - Ernie Smith

Lydia and Tim, you rock. Thanks for a great discussion! Our IT guy says that our paper can be downloaded onto Kindle, but we're not doing any special content for it as far as I know. (We can barely get the paper out AND Twitter AND occasionally post to the blog, so ... yeah. Small staff.) - Suzi Steffen, arts editor at the Eugene Weekly - Suzi Steffen

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Question 1. Writers: Are you thinking about obtaining electronic rights and portable rights to your work? #editorchat

September 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Wait, don't people usually just sell first pub rights or first NA rights? How does that affect digital repub? (My paper only asks for first pub rights, whether online or in print.) - Suzi Steffen

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It is scary how many writers (or wannabees) know nothing about erights. - Georganna Hancock

And adding to this: Have you obtained these rights in contracts? Are they spelled out? (Kindle rights, for example.) - Tim Beyers

Hey Suzi. I've seen contracts where electronic rights are thrown in. Wondering now with the new formats if device rights are next. - Tim Beyers

Good questions (the actual q & those following). - Jen Nipps

Speaking as a contracts geek that has talked to hundreds of writers about the topic, I can tell you that very few undrestand the ramifications. - Erik Sherman

In the literary journal I edit, we add a separate signature line for first digital rights, and some refuse to sign it. - Lydia Dishman

Great question. No, I haven't. Yet. - Becky

So far, most of my work has been online, so the question of erights is a bit moot as far as those are concerned. - Jen Nipps

Even the term "electronic rights" is a big question because it would suggest so many things - web, databases, CDs, Twitter, e-books, etc. - Erik Sherman

I almost feel like everyone should be. Keep in mind how messy these contracts tend to be for the music industry. Heck, there's even been some of it with eBooks; remember the whole Orwell "1984" Kindle controversy? - Ernie Smith

Jen, do you understand "archive" rights? - Georganna Hancock

I feel like Poets & Writers has written extensively on this. Or at least ... they did when teh Internetz started to be an issue. But Erik is right, so many things to ask about with "electronic" rights! - Suzi Steffen

Is it though, Jen? Electronic rights could be a catch-all but I'd argue that Web and Kindle aren't the same. Certainly the distribution is different. - Tim Beyers

Tim, the problem is that they all do get lumped together. - Erik Sherman

Georganna, "archive" rights means the right to keep a piece in an active archive on the web indefinitely. - Erik Sherman

Georganna, somewhat. One of the places where I've had articles has articles in archive, but he would also remove them if I requested it. - Jen Nipps

Ernie: Actually I don't remember that controversy. Can you briefly explain? - Tim Beyers

And "first electronic right" is downright silly. Once it's online, it is in search engines caches. - Georganna Hancock

Good point, Tim, about eRights in re: Web & Kindle. - Jen Nipps

I'm still here and listening. Just nothing of substance to add or questions to ask. - Meryl K. Evans

Erik: I've heard this, yes. Are we at a point where writers can insist on different types of electronic rights? - Tim Beyers

"First electronic" has never made sense to me for that very reason, Georganna. - Jen Nipps

Georganna Disagree. Google can't search your Kindle. - Tim Beyers from IM

The problem is that most publishers and editors don't understand the issues, so trying to get more nuanced contracts can be difficult. - Erik Sherman

Do you have a strategy for handling it, Erik? Or is this conversation well ahead of the curve? - Tim Beyers from IM

Well, I try to narrow things down and ask publications what it is that they're thinking of doing... - Erik Sherman

Tim Google can't search a lot of places. - Georganna Hancock

But then, so many want ALL rights, at least non-exclusively, that it can be fruitless. - Erik Sherman

Tim: Basically, Amazon didn't own the rights to the two Orwell novels, and then literally took the books off the users' Kindles to make things square with the rights-holders. It was pretty ironic. - Ernie Smith

I suspect pubs ask for all rights because they lack imagination and information - Georganna Hancock

And a lot of them tend to be a bit on the greedy side. - Jen Nipps

Also disagree, Georganna. Google is global and comprehensive, searching almost every form of connected media. And what isn't connected, it scans (i.e., Google Books) - Tim Beyers from IM

Georganna, you are right - but also they are telling themselves that they need the rights so they can find ways to make more money. Most would be better served figuring out the business model first. - Erik Sherman

Many times contracts are standard forms, copied and pasted and re-sent without revisions. - Lydia Dishman

Tim, I would have to disagree with you. Google doesn't have access to huge amount of info, whether paper, in databases, etc. It's called the "invisible web." - Erik Sherman

Erik Thanks! - Georganna Hancock

Certainly there's plenty that's not in Google, but the volume what is connected is, I think, beyond our ability to fully comprehend. - Tim Beyers from IM

I'd agree with that and even say that Google has become a fraud in a sense. People want more and more info, but they can't handle what they get and rarely go beyond the second page of search results. - Erik Sherman

Thus the importance of digital rights. Unless we, as writers, specify what's ours and how it's used, we're at the whims of the index. Yes? Or too paranoid? - Tim Beyers from IM

Good point about "first electronic rights," Georganna. When I write for online-only pubs, I sort of just expect to be reposted and not paid for that — but maybe I'm wrong. (Tim, I guess that falls under I think you're too paranoid. ;-) ) - Suzi Steffen

So are you suggesting we should consult with an IP attorney to figure out a simple way to word a contract to protect our rights? - Lydia Dishman

But speaking of Google, there's also the Google Books settlement that seems to be going back to the drawing board - Google and others are willing to do things that they probably don't have the rights to do just to see if anyone pushes back. - Erik Sherman

Hmmm... Perhaps a bit both, Tim. I think some caution is necessary, but -- as with anything -- extremes do tend to exhibit paranoia at times. - Jen Nipps

Lydia, unfortunately it's usually too expensive to hire a lawyer for a periodical type contract. - Erik Sherman

I may very well be, Suzi :-) But I've also built my career entirely online, so I see it the same way others here might see print. My work is my work. - Tim Beyers from IM

Agreed, Tim. - Jen Nipps

We can educate ourselves about the variety of digital rights that can be covered. - Georganna Hancock

Suzi, to quote Harlan Ellison, "I don't take a piss without getting paid for it." Reposting should not be the norm, though it depends on the contract. - Erik Sherman

And in turn, probably educate publications, right, Georganna? :) - Jen Nipps

We can also keep up with technological developments to stay on the cutting edge. - Georganna Hancock

Another problem is that most writers want to talk about rights and contracts, but won't do the work to learn about them. - Erik Sherman

Anything I'm going to sign, I'm darn sure going to know as much as I can about it. - Jen Nipps

Jen I've read articles on just that topic. Must be a rather touchy negotiation, however. - Georganna Hancock

First DIA experiment of the night: Head up the escalator to where the power outlet is, before I run out of juice in the middle of #editorchat. - Tim Beyers from IM

I'd think it would be. - Jen Nipps

Payment for digitized old print material was the subject of a settlement last year or so. I got nonthin'! - Georganna Hancock

Interesting. I think reposting PORTIONS w/o payment is fine, but then perhaps I need to take Erik's wise Harlan Ellison advice. - Suzi Steffen

Suzi What do you mean by "reposting"? - Georganna Hancock

The settlement was actually for use of material in databases. Some people objected for a variety of reasons and the settlement got rejected. Likely nothing will come of it now, effectively giving the databases license to do whatever they want. - Erik Sherman

Curious: Has anyone actually signed a contract that specified types of electronic rights? - Tim Beyers from IM

Yes, Erik. The papers/chains sold our old articles to...Highbeam? Some service. - Georganna Hancock

I have at times, Tim. But I'm a bit more finicky about contracts than many people. - Erik Sherman

Not me, Tim. Not at this point, anyway, though I certainly see that happening in the not-too-distant future. - Jen Nipps

This will blow your sox off: I've never had a contract. - Georganna Hancock

Georganna, you *always have a contract, whether you realize it or not. - Even if it's an exchange of emails. - Erik Sherman

Oh FriendFeed, where is your retweet function? Good point, Erik. - Tim Beyers

I agree, Erik. I've not had a formal, written contract, but definitely have had verbal (or summarized e-mailed) contracts that I've gone by. - Jen Nipps

Well, O.K. I have contracts with my clients, but "rights" is not applicable. - Georganna Hancock

Actually, rights are applicable. The one supreme court case that addressed this was Tasini v. New York Times. The court ruled that in absence of a written contract, the publisher only got First North American Serial Rights. But things obviously become different on the web. - Erik Sherman

Interestingly, I'm working on assignment now that has no contract. My understanding of this is that, upon completion, the publication is buying one-time rights. Default ownership is to me. True? - Tim Beyers

That case does not apply to work published on the Web? - Tim Beyers

Tim, I'd say that even online, given the SCOTUS decision, you retain ownership. But FNASR is a print concept. I'm not sure how that might change electronically. - Erik Sherman

I think the FNASR might not apply to work published on the web. But another rights clause would apply. - Jen Nipps

There are no "rights" when working with an editor - Georganna Hancock

This is why you have to understand the subtleties of the rights issues and address them. - Erik Sherman

OK I'd like to move on to Question 2, please follow along in the next box. - Lydia Dishman

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

A hearty hello to all who are tuning in to #editorchat, I am your co-host Lydia Dishman, freelance features writer

September 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Please introduce yourself when you join. Tim Beyers, your other co-moderator, freelance writer, and Motley Fool tech contributor. - Tim Beyers

35 more comments

Hey, everyone! Sorry I've been AWOL the past couple weeks. Jen, fl writer in Oklahoma (currently in Eureka Springs, AR) writing about writing, creativity, health, plus-size issues, & more (currently finishing a book of devotions). - Jen Nipps

Erik Sherman - writer, editor, author, blogger, and someone who's been sitting at the computer for too long today - Erik Sherman

Hi Jen and Erik - Lydia Dishman

Hi, Tim & Erik. - Jen Nipps

I know Erik's been up for a while. We chatted at the virtual coffee bar this morning around 5 am my time. - Tim Beyers from IM

How are you Jen? - Tim Beyers from IM

And it will be a while longer - trying to finish a chapter and listening to the Talking Heads... - Erik Sherman

Ernie Smith, uber-nerd behind ShortFormBlog. (and Washington Post Express). This week I have something special for you guys: A redesign preview! Check it out here: http://shortformblog.com/... - Ernie Smith

Pretty good, Tim. Wishing I could live in this town instead of going back to good ol' Ada, OK, in mid-October. - Jen Nipps

Hey Ernie. This topic is going to be right in your wheelhouse, I suspect. - Tim Beyers from IM

Hiya, Ernie! - Jen Nipps

Yeah, I had a feeling it would be. :D - Ernie Smith

Freelance writer & editor, blogger; former features writer & news reporter. Now settled in San Diego. - Georganna Hancock

Ernie, I like the look of it. - Erik Sherman

Looks good, Ernie. - Jen Nipps

I do, too. Nice work, Ernie. - Tim Beyers from IM

Me three Ernie :) - Lydia Dishman

It's designed for easy navigation from Twitter. Look at the individual posts. (Click on the permalinks.) - Ernie Smith

Hi, folks. Been a long time since I tuned in, but I ♥ digital publishing and am a soon-to-be ed. at http://www.channelvbooks.com. :) - E.F. Slattery

Ernie, you know what would be cool (at least to me)? A short dynamic navigation bar to one side with one- or two-word slugs that would hop you down to the item in question. - Erik Sherman

Hm. Intriguing. - Ernie Smith

How-day, how-day! Becky here from Iow-ay! :) - Becky

Ernie, is that running on Tumblr? - E.F. Slattery

Hey Becky. Glad you could make it. - Tim Beyers from IM

Erin: No, a highly-customized version of Wordpress. - Ernie Smith

Meryl, @merylkevans on Twitter, content maven who is a freelance writer and editor that loves to help. - Meryl K. Evans

Been missing you, Jen. Glad you're back! - Meryl K. Evans

Glad you could make it, Meryl. Good to see you, Erin. - Tim Beyers from IM

Slick, Ernie! And with the FB plug-in that we talked about this week. - Meryl K. Evans

Glad to be back, Meryl. I've missed it. :) - Jen Nipps

We've missed you as well, Jen. If you're not in OK tonight, where are you? - Tim Beyers from IM

Thanks Meryl; hope the stronger design means more/more engaged readers. - Ernie Smith

I'm in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, at the Writers' Colony at Dairy Hollow (www.writerscolony.org) working on the book of devotions (Devoted to Creating) requested by AWOC Books. - Jen Nipps

Outstanding, Jen. Hope it's going well. - Tim Beyers from IM

Today was rough (long story), but it's been going pretty good. - Jen Nipps

Hi Lydia, been a while since last time I joined you and Tim here, group getting bigger each time! - Gonzalo Bacigalupe

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Q2 Writers: Where do you encounter readers most often? Has the venue changed with the arrival of social media?

September 16, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

We've answered this to a degree so let's get into the specifics. Where is the action mostly? Is it Twitter? Or are there definable ways to segment social media, just as we do with traditional media? - Tim Beyers

33 more comments

Whoa, crickets. No way did we stump you smarties. I'm not buying it :-) - Tim Beyers

I didn't want to be first or last responding. Wanted to listen first. Blog comments is where we have the most direct interaction between writers/readers. Sometimes email. Twitter -- not as direct except to RT articles. - Meryl K. Evans

Twitter, FB, my Disqus comments and e-mail. - Ernie Smith

Both Twitter & Facebook for me, but it depends on subject. People LOVE to talk about food. When I ask about that, I get tons of response. ;) - Becky

I don't know for sure, but anecdotally speaking, it seems a lot of "young" people don't yet buy into Twitter, and it only works for certain audiences. (E.g., Twitter works great for writers, not so great for classical musicians, as I can tell by the success of my Conductor friend.) Facebook also skews older, more suburban-white, and I hear that MySpace trends more minority/young. So it probably depends on your audience/category where you'll find the most benefit? - Jane Friedman

Would everybody please stop emailing me? - Georganna Hancock

I've seen similar demographic data, Jane. I also segment by content. Much as I agree with Ernie that FB is richer than, say, Twitter, I don't see it being much of a business audience. The richness makes it more personal. - Tim Beyers

As a secondary note - We still reach the most people via e-mail newsletter. - Jane Friedman

Jane is right -- the answer is different for every publication, writer, editor based on their audience. But that's true for most things. I don't write for teens. If I did -- Twitter would not be the place to find them and certainly not my daughter's connections in Facebook as she lives with me and her wrath would be worse than landing new readers ;) - Meryl K. Evans

Before social media, my audience was always my client's audience. It wasn't me. It was the voice of my clients through me. In Social Media, I've applied my trade as an advertising copywriter and written in my own voice. Bam - whole new audience. Love it. - Jim Mitchem

Jim, but don't you need to reach your own audience of future clients as well? - Meryl K. Evans

My clients find me through Google and Preditors & Editors. No one's yet said, "Oh I just love your tweets. Will you edit my novel?" - Georganna Hancock

Interesting stuff. In Q1, we talked a lot about transcending sites to get involved in conversations. But the responses here point to that plus a fair amount of site-specific engagement tools: blog comments, e-mail newsletters, etc. I wonder what the mix is? 50-50 site specific versus SM? - Tim Beyers

I'd tip the scale on the side of SM only because there are more platforms to spread the wealth - Lydia Dishman

I think the key difference for us is: e-mail newsletter subscribers translate into revenue. So far, it's hard to attach that kind of number to SM. - Jane Friedman

The most social media convos I have are in #blogchat and #writechat. Few @messages. Then the ton of email. Funny, readers aren't clients. Clients don't seem to have read my blog. - Georganna Hancock

You'd think so, but I think it depends on the site and publication. That said, I'd really love to see the SM numbers for The New York Times. Keller has said that digital ad revenue is so huge that SM must be a big channel. - Tim Beyers

Well, since my site has only my blog (being a one person biz not a publication) -- it'd be more like 10-90 with SM getting the bulk. My client, on the other hand, produces email newsletters for businesses and he has one for his own business. We're incorporating SM into it. His site doesn't give people a reason to come except to enter the sales cycle and see portfolio. - Meryl K. Evans

I agree w/Jane in that email newsletters is money. Using SM and a blog should direct people to subscribe, because that's where selling is better. - Charles

Georganna, I get most of my clients through referrals and word of mouth. The rest just lets people get to know me, share knowledge / expertise and what they get if they work with me. - Meryl K. Evans

No idea what the ratio is for TMF. But I do know that, if I have a front page story that day, I'll see a flood of new recommendations after the FoolWatch e-mail goes out that day. - Tim Beyers

Tim, TMF is in my local paper's business section every Monday. - Meryl K. Evans

Sell via SM, Charles? Sorry, didn't quite understand. - Tim Beyers

I get a flood of followers after the other chats. How can I convert them into blog readers or better yet, clients? - Georganna Hancock

OK, y'all. I've gotta go. Thanks for another great chat, Lydia & Tim! See you next time! Becky in Iow-ay. - Becky

Someday they'll let me write that column, Meryl. Maybe when Selena finally takes a day off :-) - Tim Beyers

Thanks, Becky. Take care. - Tim Beyers

Tim, what I mean to say is use SM to drive people to sign up for an email newsletter, but not be so blatant and aggressive about it. - Charles

How about a show of hands since we only have 5 minutes before re-intros. Who is generating more than 50% of traffic, comments, etc. (i.e., any stat that signifies engagement to you) via SM? - Tim Beyers

Gotcha, Charles. Yes, I'd agree. I think you said earlier that SM is an engagement tool -- get 'em to the site and then let the sales tools do the selling. - Tim Beyers from IM

I probably am -- but again, I have to go to SM for people to come to my online office. But that's a one-person business thing. It'd be a different story for my clients. - Meryl K. Evans

Getting tired early -- must be time to get off the computer. Thanks for another great chat as always, Tim and Lydia. - Meryl K. Evans

G'nite Meryl, Tim's about to do his killjoy warning any minute now - Lydia Dishman

It's that time, folks. See above to post a reintro and link, and please enjoy a nice parting gift. - Tim Beyers

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Q1 Editors: Does community-building always have to take place at your site? #editorchat

September 16, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Q1. I say no. You can build community around your brand anywhere. - Charles

47 more comments

The pubs that I'm editor for -- they don't even have forums or blogs. We connect on LI, FB and Twitter. We can build/join communities anywhere. - Meryl K. Evans

What Charles said. - Ernie Smith

Jinx, Charles! :) - Meryl K. Evans

Jinx I think someone owes someone a Coke :) - Lydia Dishman

Yes, make that a Sonic Coke. Thankyouverymuch! ;) I guess everyone agrees with Charles and me? - Meryl K. Evans

Most of it definitely happens off-site and even offline (events). - Jane Friedman

But I think the real question is how do we direct the community back to our content and convince them to be customers. Right? - Charles

I think a lot of big news sites try to control the conversation because it doesn't have a direct effect on revenue offsite. You should be trying to capture the conversation instead. - Ernie Smith

I try to be subtly self-referential. - Georganna Hancock

Let's dig in further. What are the results? You do community-building elsewhere but do readers migrate back to the site? What's the advantage? - Tim Beyers

No advantage unless you're selling something, some services. - Georganna Hancock

Agreed, Ernie. I think this is where we're headed. Thanks to Twitter, FB, FF, and so on, we're gathering around conversations rather than places. Yes? - Tim Beyers

There's lots of advantages: If you're building a community on Facebook, then you have a much better chance of building an audience because that's where the readers are. - Ernie Smith

If you build your own internal community then it becomes a much tougher nut to crack. - Ernie Smith

So how do you make money from that? FB makes money, sure, but how does ShortFormBlog make you a living if you're primary source of engagement is FB? - Tim Beyers

You have to do all the community-building legwork. - Ernie Smith

We're being spread thin... we can't show up everywhere, so it's nice having several big networks like FB and twitter. Businesses need to incorporate that and mobilize SM. - Meryl K. Evans

In the case of Twitter or Facebook, there are many interactions that would lead people back to our site or make people aware of products/information that are provided through the magazine, books, etc. Sometimes it's not about leading someone to our site, but making them aware that we have XYZ newsletter, event, or class. Part of it is building awareness, building relationships, and making our point of view known, which are slippery things to quantify, but valuable in the long term. - Jane Friedman

Right, I agree w/Ernie and Meryl. We need to build and nurture communities w/SM and use our main site as the home base. - Charles

BTW: I'm a huge advocate of social media and community-building, but I think this is part of the issue for publishers. Tweeps, Facebookers, etc. have a way of ignoring those who use social media to sell, sell, sell, but these are the places we as writers engage with our readers. - Tim Beyers

Jane is your magazine doing anything with shewrites.com? - Lydia Dishman

If you leave a link on Facebook fan page, strange thing, Tim: People actually click on it. And in the case of both FB and Twitter, you can use them to cycle the conversation. - Ernie Smith

You can actually push it further, too. - Ernie Smith

But publishers can't survive by clinging to their SM reluctance. It's not all about selling. It's about building the community. - Charles

HuffPo just launched a Social News feature using FB Connect a month or two ago. - Ernie Smith

Yep, I know from personal experience that you've proven to be good at this, Ernie. How do you balance SM engagement and site and print engagement? Do you use SM as the lead and the site or magazine to deliver, as Jane was just saying? - Tim Beyers

I saw that Ernie. The only problem I have w/HuffPo's SM strategy is they're so big I wouldn't feel like I'm part of a tight-niche community. - Charles

It all goes back to diversifying your marketing. FB, your site, Twitter, email newsletters... those are all tools with content. How people prefer to receive that content and interact varies... so you have to mix it up. - Meryl K. Evans

I'm pushing because I think we should be as concrete as possible. We all think SM is a good tool but how good is it? Do we really know? - Tim Beyers

I think you also have to mix up your revenue stream - Charles

Just think if your local newspaper made Facebook Connect an integral part of their site's fabric. I bet it'd build their revenues, big time, because they'd actually have a way to push their articles in ways better than hoping they show up on Fark that day. - Ernie Smith

Charles: You're right; they're too big. I almost feel like they needed to start fresh. - Ernie Smith

Lydia - So far nothing with SheWrites. (I became a member, but am neglecting my presence on Ning.) Sounds like maybe I should investigate! (Writer's Digest is considering moving its social network to Ning.) - Jane Friedman

Good point, Ernie. Would be interested to see how this is plays out for the HuffPo now that they're trying to be like newspapers. Local edition in Denver opened for biz this week. - Tim Beyers

Yes, Ernie, FB Connect on a local level would be great. - Charles

The entire model is based on grabbing content from the community. - Tim Beyers

For a site like mine, social media totally the lede. I want to push it further, though. - Ernie Smith

So back to the original question before we move on: Is it fair to say that community-building is bigger than each publication? The best result is to be a part of conversations you're covering or selling products to, in the case of a book publisher? - Tim Beyers

Georganna: You should look into Facebook Pages. They're very quantifiable. - Ernie Smith

I think social media has been extremely successful for us in driving traffic to the site (on some pages/areas, 25% or more of traffic). We've also seen interesting effects where, if we help writers use social media, they get excited, tell friends what they've learned from us, and those friends come our way too. ... Best results (currently): helping where it is clearly needed, and sharing information on a general level, rather than trying to promote very specific product. - Jane Friedman

Ernie: do you know how to get a Twitter feed into a FB account? That's where I quit it. - Georganna Hancock

A virtuous cycle, then. Social media drives the conversations in which publishers have to participate via coverage, products, talent, etc. - Tim Beyers from IM

Jane, I agree. I find myself visiting more WD and FW-related sites thanks to SM. - Meryl K. Evans

Thanks for sharing the details, Jane. Anyone else care to go into how this process works for you? - Tim Beyers

Basic stuff: tweeting links to magazine articles is a measurable way to get traffic back to the home site - Lydia Dishman

I'm not the SM guy for the Fool but one of my favorite editors handles the tweetstream and it's helped us be a part of some very important conversations, so far as our investor audience is concerned. - Tim Beyers

Facebook actually just added the ability to send tweets from your FB page. There are also apps that do that, but to be honest FB is simply a different beast than Twitter – you actually have to interact a little more. - Ernie Smith

New Q above please follow - Lydia Dishman

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

This evening we are continuing the discussion about communities after the introduction of FastFlip by Google

September 16, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I ain't seen FastFlip - can you recap? - brooksAH

32 more comments

Sure. Check the blog post: http://bit.ly/1gG0zg - Tim Beyers

It's so so new... - Charles

Here is a link to FastFlip directly http://fastflip.googlelabs.com/ - Lydia Dishman

At 1st glance, I wish they'd put the headlines at the top of the webpage image, not below... - Charles

Pretty interesting technology. My shorthand for it: A webified collection of customizable content that feels like flipping through a newspaper. - Tim Beyers

I've glanced at mentions of it, but haven't looked closely. Seeing mixed reviews. - Meryl K. Evans

Good point, Charles. Then again, this is a beta and Google has a tendency to throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks. - Tim Beyers from IM

It reminds me of Newseum's Today's Front Pages http://www.newseum.org/todaysf... - Becky

It looks more appropriate for mobile - Charles

Sorta. - Becky

Sorry if I sound like a grouch, but this is what I find so irritating - I thrashed around on the Google site for five minutes without finding FF or any reference to it, and only found it thanks to Lydia's link. Am I dumb or do they make these things more difficult than need to be? - brooksAH

Ah, good one, Becky. It's like we have so many resources... it's just another one except it's getting more attention because it's Google. - Meryl K. Evans

oops - was that O/T? - brooksAH

I have an iPhone -- it's actually more annoying on mobile. I tend to agree with RWW assessment. This is a non-starter ... http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive... - Jane Friedman

Really? I'm in the minority on this one. I think it's a nice add-on for publishers trying to figure out a moneymaking digital strategy. - Tim Beyers

Tim: how so? - Charles

Yeah, Tim... how? - Meryl K. Evans

I think FastFlip is an interesting idea, but not really a game changer. - Ernie Smith

The long-term plan is to place contextual plans based on browsing tendencies, just as the Goo does with search. Publishers will get a slice of the ad revenue. - Tim Beyers from IM

It could be a game changer if the publishers take initiative to make it work as a revenue generator - Lydia Dishman

Also, I think it's way too early to handicap this as a game changer or not. It's barely a beta product. As with all Google Labs software, it's an idea backed by some code. - Tim Beyers from IM

But I think Tim is right, a slice of ad revenue would be something, I think there is more than that potential there - Lydia Dishman

Basically, this would be a way better idea if it was an interface for Google Reader. It seems like it'd make more sense if you could use this on any site you follow with all of the revenue-sharing benefits. - Ernie Smith

To me, Fast Flip represents a movement. Not a movement we're seeing but one we could see, which is the subject of the first question if I recall correctly. - Tim Beyers

Sounds good in theory, but what about that "slice of the revenue?" Google takes more than their fair share of revenue from contextual advertising (adwords), leaving content publishers working for virtually free. - Charles

see Q 1 in the next box - Lydia Dishman

I've tried out those flying media apps with images and found them more annoying than useful. Terrible performance. Flip looks like it'll work better from a usability and performance standpoint. Points for Google. - Meryl K. Evans

Yes, Charles. Therein lies the danger. if Google gets greedy, then I agree with the skeptics -- it's a non-starter. - Tim Beyers

I would argue any successful media company or major content provider needs to have significant revenue flowing in that far, far exceeds whatever revenue Google's efforts would bring. At least that's my guess for the next 5 years or so ... e.g., reader subscription revenue. - Jane Friedman

If Google gets greedy? IF? ;) - Becky

Hahahahahaha. Touche, Becky. On AdWords, Google takes plenty -- it's why Google News alone feeds more than $100 million in revenue. - Tim Beyers from IM

That's right, that's the issue here: Google is greedy. - Charles

Jane, agree. Charles, don't agree. Google's greed is typical and no more than you'll find at any major company. Microsoft? Apple? Are they giving away nearly as much technology as Google? All three are greedy, as most growth companies are. - Tim Beyers

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Good evening #editorchat-ers welcome to the 9-16 edition of our discussion

September 16, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

We've live. Please introduce yourself as you join. - Tim Beyers

29 more comments

Freelance writer; recently graduated Medill... Figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. Again. - Kate G.

Tim Beyers, your co-moderator and Motley Fool tech contributor here. Freelancer for tech, business, and culture. - Tim Beyers

Welcome, Kate. Glad you could join us. - Tim Beyers from IM

Hello all, I'm your co-host Lydia Dishman freelance features writer for print and web mags - Lydia Dishman

I'm here, I think. ;) - Becky

Hi Becky and Kate :) - Lydia Dishman

Yo, Becky. (Which is to say that you are, in fact, here.) :-) - Tim Beyers from IM

Charles Bohannan, editor, blogger, content marketer. - Charles

Charles, hi :) - Lydia Dishman

Hey Charles. Glad you could make it. - Tim Beyers from IM

Happy to be here :) - Charles

Ernie Smith, the guy behind http://shortformblog.com/ – when I'm not slaving away as a designer at The Washington Post Express - Ernie Smith

Ernie! Good to see you here, man. - Tim Beyers from IM

Hi E (how's that for short form greeting?) - Lydia Dishman

ahbrooks - editor, writer, translator - brooksAH

Welcome, ahbrooks. What are you writing nowadays? - Tim Beyers from IM

Hi Tim - just trade mag stuff - IT and construction right now. You? - brooksAH

Tech, business, culture, mostly for The Motley Fool and The Quicken Blog, but I've recently taken on some corporate work as well. - Tim Beyers from IM

Corporate - I keep looking for it, but never seem to find it. Not that now's a good time for it, of course. - brooksAH

If you are new and need to see the rules, check one box up. If you are a regular please give Tim your attention anyway, he's got a better spiel than a flight attendant and you don't need to know where the exits are here :) - Lydia Dishman

This is the first chat I've done on FF - you guys like it? Seems like it'd help us over at #journchat. - Kate G.

AH, the corporate work is a little easier for me to find because I was in PR for so many years. Still keep in touch with my favorites from the old days. That said, I only take work from private companies. Public co's are my domain at the Fool -- too much of a chance for a conflict of interest. - Tim Beyers from IM

Twitter failed us too many times, so we switched - Lydia Dishman

Oh Twitter fails us all the time. ;) Anyway, I write for Chicagoist, love the online world. Home is blogging, gadgetry and hard news. Obviously this leaves me with lots to do and no one to pay me to do it. - Kate G.

Me here from Plano, Texas. Writer and editor with no bright ideas for this introduction. @merylkevans on Twitter. - Meryl K. Evans

Jane Friedman, Publisher of Writer's Digest (http://www.janefriedman.com) - Jane Friedman

Then let me give you a plug, Meryl. You produced a great video on using FriendFeed for chats. (We appreciate the plug very much.) - Tim Beyers

Evening Jane. Glad you could make it. - Tim Beyers

Aw, shucks. Thanks, Tim. Just trying to help people join in without fear of not knowing what to do. - Meryl K. Evans

Wow, Jane! Can't believe you found time to join us with a big weekend ahead. Ah... how I wish I could go to NY. - Meryl K. Evans

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Editors: How do you encourage your writers to produce content that will create conversations? #editorchat

September 9, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

They have to know their sources well and be on the phone with them every day. #editorchat - LisaGemini

44 more comments

I think if writers are on top of the news in their field, they will produce content that creates conversations -- but they have to be prepared to engage in those conversations or they will fail - mathew ingram

Twitter is proving priceless at keeping up with news and changes. - Georganna Hancock

It's part-intuition, part-market/reader research and part-competitive analysis. That's my off-the-cuff theory - Charles

Whenever you're trying to tackle a topic that will inherently have many perspectives and opinions (e.g., self-publishing, content aggregators), we look for ways to include reader contributions alongside the professionals' advice. And we open up a thread/conversation on our forum and/or blogs to keep the conversation going. - Jane Friedman

It's also helpful to seed the conversation topic in newsletters, on Twitter/Facebook, etc. - Jane Friedman

Moving on up... :) - ShirleyBrady

Agree with Georganna. I think editors and journos need to make social media a regular part of their jobs because lots of fresh stuff comes through. Jane's approach is also a good one that smart pubs are using -- mixing it up (Twitter, blog, etc) and adding readers' thoughts alongside journos'. - Meryl K. Evans

Curious to hear folks' thoughts on registered profiles: BW.com doesn't do that (except on sister Business Exchange platform) and think it would help raise reader-commenter-contributor profiles, and elevate the conversation. Fast Company/Salon/Guardian/HuffPo do that in different ways, of course. - ShirleyBrady

Registered profiles cuts down on the spam I'm sure - Lydia Dishman

Registered profiles may help with spam, but what if someone finds a blog entry through a search and wants to reply? You may get many one-time repliers when they land on your site through search engines. Do you want to miss out on them because of registration? - Meryl K. Evans

Registration is also an impediment to participation. Many won't comment on Blogger blogs now. - Georganna Hancock

Agree that a mix of social media outlets are good for mining content of engagement - Charles

we ask people to register before they comment, which cuts down on spam, but we still get plenty of offensive comments regardless -- we don't verify people's identities in any way though - mathew ingram

As for producing journalism that creates conversations -- blogs, at their best, are a dialogue and conversation; ditto live chats (Matt, G&M did a nice job using Cover It Live today for the Apple presser). Big fan of beat-blogging, too - BW's @dmac1 does that, a few other BW reporters... - ShirleyBrady

Registration isn't that great because it undercuts the openness and accessibility of dialog - Charles

thanks, Shirley -- live discussions are a great way of engaging with readers, and so are blogs. I wish more of our writers would do both :-) - mathew ingram

Blogs are sometimes challenging - even when a writer specifically asks for comments. At least it is for me. - Lydia Dishman

Meryl, Georganna - good points re detriments to registration... Some platforms allow quick unregistered commenting. - ShirleyBrady

Ask open-ended questions when talking to reporters about stories. Treat them like valuable sources. See what they know. Good reporters know getting conversations going involves answering and asking the questions of public curiosity. - Scott Thistle

I work with an email newsletter publisher that includes a handful of related articles we find on the web for further reading. We have to eliminate some great sites because you can't get the content without registering/signing in. We don't want to put up a barrier for our readers. - Meryl K. Evans

This is a bit off topic, but the NY Times requiring you to register just to send an e-mail of a story is very off-putting. #editorchat - LisaGemini

So great content, great conversations - with a great intermediary (the writer, blogger, content creator) at the heart of both... - ShirleyBrady

That's it, Shirley - Charles

Chats are way more participatory. And now people email me rather than putting comments in the blog. I don't even worry about comments any more. But I do thank everyone and try to think up something more to engage them. - Georganna Hancock

I'd also like the option to "thumbs up" a story w/o registering on some sites - Lydia Dishman

Scott, open-ended questions are key! - ShirleyBrady

Lydia, good point. And there are sites (I'll admit it: Gawker) that I frequent strictly for the community of commenters. I feel I *know* MrHippity et al (mostly because I'm a Project Runway geek...) ;) - ShirleyBrady

Lyida, I think they do that so people don't repeatedly vote for their own stuff. Then again, some people team up to vote on things one another wrote. - Meryl K. Evans

Even with registration, I've seen some sites descend into back-and-forth disputes between commenters. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Lisa, that def. gets boring - fast. - ShirleyBrady

And what to do about spam comments? Do you clear them or leave them? - Lydia Dishman

Which is why the "intermediary" blogger/editor/writer should take responsibility to lead conversations and topics - Charles

It's like some commenters never learned not to engage if someone is diametrically opposed to you. They get all angry over little stuff. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Spam comments go the incinerator - Charles

Spam comments? Clear them! - ShirleyBrady

Get 'em out of there, quickly, before you lose readers. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Sadly have to leave to read bedtime book to daughter. Will return or read transcript. Lots of great answers, info here. - Lisa Sink

Policing your community is the other side of engaging members. - Georganna Hancock

Thanks for coming Lisa :) - Lydia Dishman

Good night, Lisa. Reading to your daughter is important. #editorchat - LisaGemini

btw, speaking about engaging: I'm listening (in the background) to whitehouse.gov post-speech chat, incorporating questions from Twitter, FB, WH.gov, etc - talk about engaging. And Lisa, belated hi & happy reading! - ShirleyBrady

We only have 25 minutes left so let's move to Q3 - follow me above - Lydia Dishman

Yes, I love it actually but hate to miss this, too. - Lisa Sink

This from NYT's @tomfeyer via twitter To engage readers, add substance to the conversation. Rise above the screaming; be civil. And a dash of wit is always welcome. - Lydia Dishman

re comment from @tomfeyer - eloquently put! - ShirleyBrady

Editorchat: Lydia Dishman

Q3 - With NYT and WSJ planning Bay area editions, can you really just plug into a community? #editorchat

September 9, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

It depends how many local reporters and editors you can hire. Now, I'm sure they'll have a huge pool to draw from. #editorchat - LisaGemini

41 more comments

Absolutely not. Maybe the NYT and WSJ can pull it off because of national recognition and reporters there who already know the audience, but I don't see it as a model that's easily replicated or recommended. - Jane Friedman

NYT's local blogs have some great content - but by same token, local bloggers are plugged in but not trained journalists - so will they ask the tough questions & follow-up at town hall meetings, etc? - ShirleyBrady

Citizen journalism would be a great topic for another night, Lydia. #editorchat - LisaGemini

That's really hard to do if you don't have the resources and brand that NYT and WSJ have. It would take a serious hustler to do that. - Charles

I should also note that BW tested a Chicago edition, but pulled the plug... And HuffPo also rolling out local versions, starting in Chicago if I'm not mistaken... Plugging into a community is tough from a top-down approach. - ShirleyBrady

That's very sensible, Shirley. There is usually resistance from the community with those types of approaches. - Charles

Citizen journalism is a great topic - agree it merits an #editorchat of its own! - ShirleyBrady

NYT and WSJ stand out because they report on stories of interest to businesses without geographical boundaries. If I lived in the Bay area, I'd stick to reading the Chronicle / Gate or whatever else has been doing it longer. If WSJ and NYT took over my local paper with their styles -- it'd be all wrong. - Meryl K. Evans

Shirley - We've talked around citizen journalism in previous chats but you are right - perhaps for next time! - Lydia Dishman

I don't see these homegrown communities being any more successful. The U-T is moving its "Backyard" to the paper's own website. - Georganna Hancock

In the Tampa/St. Pete market, we have one failing paper and one surviving. When the Tribune laid off staff, many jumped ship to the Times... but others went into public relations. There are lots of good local journos ripe for the picking. #editorchat - LisaGemini

I'm fascinated by geotagging, and potential for local on Twitter - and btw my husband just butted in to say Oudin knocked out of #usopen for any tennis fans.... - ShirleyBrady

Thanks for the update on Oudin. Such an inspiring story. Thanks, Mr. Brady! - Meryl K. Evans

With the right local collaborators, good human intelligence, and resources you can do it. That and patience, still you only become a trusted brand with audiences and readers by being one. - Scott Thistle

I wonder how much of a budget NYT and WSJ are putting into San Fran. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Sorry to veer off-topic! And Scott, well put... Lisa, I'd imagine NYT/WSJ Bay Area editions would have to be pricey endeavors if they're serious. - ShirleyBrady

I think Shirley is right -- community is very difficult to plug into from outside. Real community comes from inside. - mathew ingram from iPhone

Can't see WSJ and NYT doing soft / feel good stories, something the locals do well. Just read a two-parter in my paper that would've been disaster in NYT/WSJ if they're keeping the same voice / style. - Meryl K. Evans

I don't think a newspaper special edition fits the "community" model we've been discussing. - Georganna Hancock

Agreed Mathew and Shirley, but I'd add to the definition of "inside" as being inside and industry or subject such as food or travel. - Lydia Dishman

With the right leader in place and a large budget, I think NYT/WSJ could pull it off. WSJ has been doing regional editions for many years. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Right, Lisa. I can see the WSJ just dropping SoCal stories in their western edition and calling it San Francisco. - Georganna Hancock

All the more reason to use freelance writers local to where they want to be ;-) - Lydia Dishman

As for defining community beyond geographic, Lydia, you're right: there are distinct virtual communities (foodies, travel etc) - in BW.com's case, we've got passionate communities around b-schools, cars, investors, etc. Targeted blogs create hubs to gather around, but just a starting point - ShirleyBrady

LOL. San Fran is a huge market; I'm sure WSJ could find good local journos. #editorchat - LisaGemini

If I were a freelancer in the Bay area, I'd be calling the WSJ and NYT every day. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Score another possible victory for the freelance economic model. - Lydia Dishman

But all the NYT would have to do is customize its own wire stories. Phone calls can do that. - Georganna Hancock

I don't think customizing wire stories will be community-oriented enough for Bay area readers. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Freelancers are vital... in days of yore, big brands relied on stringers for local expertise; those budgets slashed (as don't have to tell you guys!) Customizing wire stories - not sure that's something I'd want to read in my local WSJ/NYT (with all due respect, Georganna!) - ShirleyBrady

Customizing wire stories is nothing new. - Georganna Hancock

True; just talking about creating something truly unique & dynamic to serve a local community (and succeed)... - ShirleyBrady

Well folks I am going to give the killjoy warning slightly earlier tonight rather than tackle a new question. - Lydia Dishman

Well-heeled and long tentacles do no good if they are not sticky too. Sounds like a bad fortune cookie, eh? As to freelancers get the best quality and negotiate terms to mutual satisfaction. Within reason. :) Night all. - Scott Thistle

Anyway, for a story on a publisher community building, see http://bit.ly/SsVlK One way to use the new Posterous. - Georganna Hancock

Thanks for another insightful chat, Lyida and everyone who joined in. Have a great night and see you on Twitter or other SM sites unknown. :) - Meryl K. Evans

That's fine: this is a huge topic, to be sure; and Federer's now playing Soderling sooo... #tennisgeek :) And Scott: mind if put that on a tee? Georganna, I'll check out that link. Lydia, thanks for another informative chat, always a pleasure. Nice chatting with you all! - ShirleyBrady

Thanks, Lydia. Over and out! - Georganna Hancock

Thanks to everyone for coming tonight and sharing your insights. We will definitely continue this topic on another edition of #editorchat. - Lydia Dishman

Thanks all, for a wonderful chat. Interesting stuff. #editorchat - LisaGemini

Great stuff once again. Chat with you all next week. Aloha. - Charles

Thanks, Lydia -- great discussion - mathew ingram

Meryl K. Evans › Comments