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Louis Gray

The Great Debate: Is College the Right Path to Succeed? - http://www.louisgray.com/live...

May 4 from louisgray.com - Comment - Like - Share

Ian May, Daniel Brusilovsky, Mike Fruchter and 8 other people liked this

Following on to the weekend thread. (And check out the FriendFeed embed) - Louis Gray

That is a fantastic thread, with a whole bunch of different opinions. - Rob Diana

Louis Gray

@danielbru if you don't go to college, the wrath of us all will be upon your head. If I advise you in anything... it's _GO TO COLLEGE_.

May 2 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Jack DeWitt Smith, Voyagerfan5761, Rakesh and 60 other people liked this

Or do what I did - go to a college where you can challenge and get work credit out of classes. I only took about 2 years equivalent because I was able to prove I already knew the content of the courses I was taking. The rest I was able to take the final, prove I knew the content, or provide concrete proof I could pretty much educate the professors on what they were talking about because I was doing what they were teaching in real life. - Jesse Stay

188 more comments

And I graduated Suma Cum Laude, straight A's because of it :-) - Jesse Stay

Nice. I took a similar approach by only showing up to half of my classes to take the mid-terms and finals. But your way is better - you didn't have to do the rest of the assignments. - Mike Hartman

Yeah - I think it's stupid if you can already pass the finals to have to fake your way through the rest of the class. I'm a no BS type of guy. Why waste my time? The degree's extremely important, as are the grades, but it's all about strategy on how you get that degree and the grades. :-) - Jesse Stay

I actually ended up getting more prepared for the business world from my activity at the student newspaper at Cal Berkeley than I did in many of the courses, but I think trying to jump from high school into "real life" is a big jump. Daniel specifically is a smart guy who is getting some great projects started, but I wouldn't want to see him get derailed. - Louis Gray

Dave, I disagree with the grad degree, but I think the Bachelors is essential. I went through jobs with and without a degree, and I was always much more secure with the degree than without. In addition, I learned things in college that have helped me in starting my own business that would have taken much longer to learn on my own. - Jesse Stay

Having a degree from a good college can make all the difference to some potential employers. They may not ever ask for your GPA (don't tell Google), but it holds significant weight. I would assume from what I know about Daniel, and his tweets, that he wants to be CEO, wheeling and dealing from day one, and that's hard to do. - Louis Gray

I appreciate all the comments here. For me, I want to learn what I want to learn. My current school doesn't offer any classes even close to tech - the closest is my school newspaper which I'm the technology and business editor. Because of this, the last three years of high school I feel have been a waste of my time. I was talking to Michael Arrington and he said one of the biggest... more... - Daniel Brusilovsky

College is more than just earning a degree. College is learning about your limits and your loves. College is a place for exploring and expanding your interests. My biggest regret was not going outside of my comfort zone. - LPH™ and his dog P™

Daniel - I agree with Louis. You SHOULD go to college. Granted you have much more real-world experience than most people beginning their college degree, but you'll be able to make more lifelong friends, take classes that you may find interesting, aside from just simply that within your major, and yes, you will learn something AS LONG as you find it challenging. I think that at least... more... - Kenneth

I think a bit of the concern of whether to go to college or not for teens like Daniel and myself is based on the economy. They see college as an expense but don't see the benefits of having that degree when you do decide to go into the workplace. They end up working at McDonald's working for years until they decide to go back to college (community or otherwise). Daniel - I'll echo what... more... - Zach Flauaus

Louis, I couldn't agree more with this. - Brandon Mendelson

College was the best four years of my life. I thoroughly advocate it. Get an education and have a ball. Don't live with your parents, though. That was part of the reason I went to college, and I wouldn't listen to any suggestions that I attend one of the schools in my hometown. Living life FTW! - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

x2 what Louis Gray initially said. Seriously, go! - Adam Singer

I have to agree with Louis. The 4 years I spent in college getting a BS in Biology provided the social, mental, and learning environment for me to explore new horizons. For me, getting my Master's degree was where I really enjoyed the benefits of having a higher education. Undergrad degrees give you more well rounded skills and a lifetime of memories, friends, and experiences, whereas... more... - Brian Daniel Eisenberg

I did the same thing Jesse did. Paying my own way, I couldn't afford to spend too much time in school. - Admiral Anika

In the end it's the degree that counts. Education can be obtained with or without the degree, and that's an entirely different topic. Businesses, whether right or wrong, still respect the degree significantly. - Jesse Stay

You learn new things about yourself in college. When I was applying, I didn't see much I liked either. Now I love philosophy. And learning what you don't want to learn is good, too. Gets you out of your bubble. Did that to me, at least. Not even trying it out, as Jobs, Woz and others have done, just shows you're not interested in new experiences. I can suggest a school that will offer you a broad range of topics and studies. Going to college is another way to explore yourself. - Kabren Levinson

Heck yes, go to college, any college that teaches what you want to learn. - Dan Morrill AKA Techwag

LPH said it great. Louis too. I am fortunate to work at one of the largest employers in the country but you cannot get in without at least a bachelors degree. It's against company policy. Try and use the time to figure out what ya love, experiment with classes from many different areas. No shame in starting at a community college either. - Steve C

Expect a blog post later today on my blog, http://www.danielbru.com about this. We can have a great conversation there as well :) - Daniel Brusilovsky

I agree with Jesse, go somewhere you can challenge classes and/or get work credit, but go to college! I quit midway, thinking I could always go back and finish. Well guess what, to took me 29 years to finally get my BA. In the interim, I can't tell you how many interviews with top companies I never got because I didn't have that magic piece of paper. If you have an entrepenurial bent,... more... - Ginger Kenney

Zach: I'm not basing my decision off the economy. If I really wanted to go to college, I would pay for it, because I would think it's worth it. And because of that, I don't think it's worth it, therefore I wouldn't pay the ridiculous amount for yet another piece of paper. - Daniel Brusilovsky

If I am looking at college, It would be San Jose St or Emerson College. Veronica Belmont went to Emerson College with a B.A. in Audio/Radio, focus in New Media studies. This is something that I would enjoy doing. - Daniel Brusilovsky

And everyone says college is about connections. I have connections, and I don't need to go to college for that. I think real world experience is more important then a piece of paper. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Daniel: You echo the exact same words I said only a couple years back. Sigh, guess this is always a topic that will be brought up again and again... ;) - Taylor Marek

It's not just the piece of paper, though; it's the community. It's the exposure to new ideas and new people from everywhere. I never got the paper, and could only stay a year, but life went in a direction I never even knew about before I spent a year at college. Just something else to think about. - LJF Wolffe

Daniel - I'm not saying *you* are basing it off the economy, I'm saying the whole teen population in general is. There are differences between the connections you get through your work and college. You don't just meet everybody willy-nilly in real life. College is a giant think tank. Your next big project could be there. Could you meet up with local people and think of new ideas? Sure. But that is definitely not the best way to go about it. - Zach Flauaus

LJF is right. College is a time when you get to spend a few years just learning new things and doing R&D for your life. Do it right and it's magical. Note: Google, Yahoo, HP, Cisco, Sun, and many other companies were born at a University. Also, you get access to technology you'd never be able to build on your own. Go to Carnegie Melon and look through their robotics department, for... more... - Robert Scoble

Daniel: would you build one of these on your own? http://scobleizer.com/2007... I doubt it. But if you went to college you might. - Robert Scoble

Robert: I think all of this is really cool, but I don't want to spend 4 years of my life doing something that in the back of my head, I will be questioning. Why 4 years? Why not 2? 3? - Daniel Brusilovsky

Perhaps better than college is creating a self education where you gain the knowledge, skills and abilities to become self sufficient. Self sufficient means the ability to create income from serving others. People pay for results. Become known as a "results" creator. #HumanCapital - David Damore

Robert(love the new blog design btw): True, there are things in college that you cannot learn elsewhere, such as becoming a doctor. But for someone who is already becoming vastly popular in a realm of their own, does it really entail having to spend 10k+ extra for a piece of paper/connections/experiences that you already experience (for no charge) in real life? Not to mention if you... more... - Taylor Marek

David: I'm a person who loves to learn what I want to learn. I don't want to go somewhere where I have to take math, science, etc. I want to go somewhere where I can learn about video, audio, new media, Web 2.0, etc. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Taylor: I made $150,000 so far by giving a one-hour speech at a user group meeting back in the early 1990s, so I don't worry too much about paying off college loans. If you invest that money in the right places it'll pay off in spades over the length of your career. Daniel's popularity would go a lot further if he learned how to manage people better, learned how to run a business, and... more... - Robert Scoble

I disagree. It's optional, some of the top minds in our industry never completed college - Jeremiah Owyang

Louis is right in the respect that a college degree is a pass key to employment in many places, but I've met myriad degree holders who don't seem too 'educated' unfortunately. What does Bill Gates have his degree in again? Steve Jobs? I'm just saying you shouldn't be afraid of pursuing your dreams just because they happen to lead you away from academia. - Jesse Newhart

Jesse: like all things in life college is what you make of it. When I got to SJSU? I setup 100 Macs over the summer, taught myself Quark XPress, redesigned the school newspaper, and started building relationships with industry experts, including Adobe. All those skills still are paying dividends today. None were inside a classroom. - Robert Scoble

Jeremiah and Jesse - Like I mentioned above, that doesn't mean that you are guaranteed success. Wouldn't you rather have that degree to fall back on in case your idea is an absolute failure? - Zach Flauaus

Daniel, to be clear, I absolutely get your perspective. It's similar to why I tell people I never went to grad school. But I was nowhere near ready to do what I'm doing now when I left high school. In college, I helped better define my focus. I became a better writer and thinker, learned how to publish on deadline, and got a better understanding for what was important and what was not.... more... - Louis Gray

I can't back it up with hard data, but I think only a tiny percentage of people can get to be the top minds anywhere without a degree; most of us seem to need the extra four years of development. I suppose it is up to Daniel to figure out what percentile he falls under. I really don't think college hurts most people, though. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Zach - Sometimes an opportunity will not stick around long enough for you to finish your degree. On the flip side my mother received her second degree at the age of 49. - Jesse Newhart

MiniMage: Daniel is awesome at networking. He doesn't have trouble doing that. He needs more skills in building product and learning the drudge work of running a company. He could be a blogger right now, or even run a media company, but he has so much more potential than that. I see him running Tesla someday. For that he needs other skills that he doesn't yet have. - Robert Scoble

Jeremiah: I never completed college. It's not about the paper. - Robert Scoble

Daniel: I heard Fareed Zakaria speak the other day. He learned organic chemistry. To me it's about throwing yourself at something hard and working through it. I survived two years of calculus. Do I use that in my career? No. But the learning skills of being able to thrive at doing something I really didn't like serve me well every day. - Robert Scoble

If you only go to college to learn what you want to learn, in my opinion, college is pointless. Part of what college does is it forces and encourages one to look beyond what they want and what they feel comfortable with. And none of those "great" minds you cite (jobs, gates, etc) didn't avoid college all together. As Robert says, College is not about the paper, it's about the experience... more... - Kabren Levinson

Competition is fierce. If you can afford to do college do it. I went to college and went to graduate school (law school). I finished everything by the time I was 26. However, my legal training to me has not made since until now - 9 years later. My college network is so vast I cannot keep up but I am thankful for that. I'm also thankful for the friendships I made. I learned tremendous... more... - Jennifer

My brother and I took two very different routes; he chose not to go to college, I went. For years he earned more than I did, not any more. It's all about the soft skills you develop in that community - networking, interacting, learning how to find information, where/how to get it. 20 years on he frequently wishes he went. The most useful classes I did were the ones I hated most, finance and tax, especially now I'm running my own company. - Sally Church

In my opinion...if you're already questioning college then you shouldn't go to college. That's not to say you should rule out getting a college degree your entire life, but if you already have doubts about whether college is right for you, or maybe down the road, then go with your gut. Hell, get an online degree or something...the paper degree costs less and you can still do plenty with it. Honestly I feel that the higher education system sucks and really it's not for everyone. - Harry Wolff

Not to mention, if you want the most interesting tech jobs, like these at IBM's New Almaden Research Center you MUST have a college degree. They don't hire people without one: http://scobleizer.com/2008... Daniel has the potential to do great work in the tech industry. He already has proven he has the sales and networking skills. Imagine what he could do if he had some technical chops too! - Robert Scoble

@scobleizer You are probably right on that point. Getting college paid off in a really short time is a wise move to make, as well as saving up the money and not even going into loans, of which I'm doing the latter choice. :) - Taylor Marek

Harry: I disagree. If you're already questioning it, isn't that a better reason to go? Part of what progressive liberal arts education should be about asking questions and saying, "Why?". College has been great for me. I began applying with intentions of only staying in the tech world. I started studying philosophy, classics, and religion. You have no idea how relevant this stuff is to the future of technology, and particularly, the Internet. - Kabren Levinson

Kabren: Mark Zuckerberg studied Psychology in college and he uses that in Facebook everywhere. Good point. Who knows what else Daniel would learn if he threw himself into an interesting University? - Robert Scoble

Robert: Right. Plus, there are all sorts of AMAZING leadership opportunities in colleges; clubs, student government, etc. That's experience you can't get elsewhere. Right now, in one of my projects, I'm pulling together Socrates, the philosopher, Aristophones, the comic poet, Clouds, and the Internet. Studying philosophy has greatly enriched my experiences on the Internet. - Kabren Levinson

Kabren: I believe I didn't explain myself clearly. What I meant to make explicit is my feeling that if there is enough doubt to put into question whether college is a worthwhile investment (and it is, of course, an investment), and the motivation to go to college and fulfill all requirements of the university then one should not go. Basically...if you doubt that you'll be able to or want to finish college then I feel that is an investment that should not have been made. Honestly, college isn't for all. - Harry Wolff

If you get connected with the right kind of educator while in college, you get informed about all sorts of internships, co-op and research opportunities. Those companies are looking for STUDENTS. Some of those opportunities are available while still in high school, but I'm guessing the chances for such explode at the college level. Maybe in this economy, things aren't like they were when I was in grad school, but there's one way to find out. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Harry: that's true. But one of Daniel's problems is arrogance. It's arrogant to think you don't need college. He's probably right that he'll do just fine (my brother Ben is doing just fine without college) but what he isn't seeing is that college throws you into situations that you can't experience anywhere else. If he gave himself over to it he'd come out a better person and I bet he'd be even MORE successful as a result. And, hell, the longer I live life the more I realize it's not about the money anyway. - Robert Scoble

Harry: Still, it's an experience that's hard to know where it leads. It's an experience. Sure, if he goes in only wanting to come out with a piece of paper, then he shouldn't go to college, but if he wants a new, different, exciting, and challenging experience, he should go. - Kabren Levinson

Here's another way to look at it: if Daniel met Fareed Zakaria and Daniel didn't go to college and didn't study organic chemistry or economics they wouldn't have nearly the same conversation as if Daniel DID go to college and studied both of those topics. There are TONS of intangibles like that in life. I've hit hundreds of those situations and when I do I always wish I had studied more in college, not less. - Robert Scoble

Daniel, Robert. one great thing about college is that I met my wife there, think about the ladies dude! - Jeremiah Owyang

A few blocks away from me is Steve Jurvetson. He funded Hotmail and a bunch of other stuff. I can't talk about rocketry with him in any depth, because I don't know much about that topic. I also can't talk about semiconductor design (I watched him talk with a researcher at HP and they were having a very in depth conversation I wish I understood more of). Daniel loves having those kinds of conversations. He needs more knowledge to really get satisfaction from them. - Robert Scoble

Jeremiah: I don't think Daniel will have problems meeting the ladies. I met Maryam in the office where TechCrunch is located now, by the way. :-) - Robert Scoble

College doesn't give you an education. You create it from the situation you are in. [College is a great place to do so, but not always] Daniel will likely be a lifelong learner whatever decision he makes regarding college. - David Damore

If you can afford it I would recommend going to college outside your home town. College is a great way to develop your own identity and explore interest that you may not been aware you even had. You can build a new reputation and not have to worry about anyone knowing about your childhood foibles or mishaps. Besides employers look for that degree on a resume whether you are starting out or looking for a promotion - Kim Landwehr

When I interviewed for my first job in the Valley, the boss/CEO was a recent immigrant from Russia. What made him call me wasn't my major or my summer jobs I'd held before, but the simple word "Berkeley" at the bottom. In broken English, he pointed to that on my resume, and said "Berkeley - Is great." I've only been in two jobs since in the last ten years. - Louis Gray

Jesse - Who's to say that you can't work on your project and college at the same time? - Zach Flauaus

Pretty much everyone has their different paths and each choice will cause a different result. Ultimately Daniel needs/should make the decision himself for it is only his life that he is living. - Harry Wolff

Harry - I agree. That's what needs to be decided. He needs to weigh out the pros and cons. - Zach Flauaus

I usually don't talk about my family, and keep them out of my picture, but I have an older sister. She graduated top of her class in high school (same school I'm going to), and is very very smart. She went to UCSD on a molecular biology major, and now is a scientist. Then there is Daniel. Doesn't get great grades, and doesn't think school is necessary. It's hard to compare when your older sister is extremely smart. Book smart vs. street smart. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Jeremiah: Trust me, I got that covered :) - Daniel Brusilovsky

Robert: I appreciate the comments. It's because of you where I am now. I owe most of my career to you. I don't think I'm "arrogant" when it comes to college. High school has put me in a position where I don't want to learn the mandatory anymore. I want to learn what I want, not what's required. Do I really need to take PE? Is that necessary for my career? - Daniel Brusilovsky

Daniel: You sound like you know what you want but making that decision is scary. I don't mean to sound holier-than-thou or condescending but well, deciding about college is a big and scary thing (IMO). Only thing I want to bring to your attention is the point that you shouldn't rule out college entirely. Maybe later in your career; now it sounds as though you don't/want college. Just stay true to yourself Daniel... - Harry Wolff

Louis: But that one word, "Berkeley" won't determine my future. I didn't send an application to work at Qik, they wanted me to work for them. I know that's not going to happen from now on, but it just shows that I don't need a fancy word like Berkeley to get hired. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Harry: I'm not completely ruling out college. I'm just saying that for what it's worth (a piece of paper), I don't think it's worth the thousands of dollars and 4 years. I'm actually planning on visiting some schools next year, like Scoble's alma mater, San Jose State. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Dave: and I have my sister who went to college, and is going for her Masters soon :) - Daniel Brusilovsky

Daniel: Some claim that the networking, collaboration and the alumni network are what really matters about college/university. - David Damore

Daniel, there's a whole discussion on book smart vs. street smart in here. My grades weren't great in high school either. I think I had a 3.17. And in Berkeley, a 2.71 final GPA. But, as I guess you do, I tested well. - Louis Gray

David: Colleges also get a lot of money from alumni's :) - Daniel Brusilovsky

If I didn't go to college, then I probably would have ended up as a reporter for the local paper. I thought I wanted to be a reporter when I came out of high school, and was interning there. Good thing I didn't limit my options! - Louis Gray

Louis: If I wanted to try, I would get better grades, but it comes back to the fact that high school doesn't teach me what I want to learn. We have no computer/tech related classes and we are in the heart of the Silicon Valley! - Daniel Brusilovsky

Then you can drop out like I did. - Leo Laporte

Leo: Then I would always have the thought in the back of my head on why I went in the first place. - Daniel Brusilovsky

There is always more than one way to find where you're supposed to be. College is a good route but by no means the only one. I'd love my eldest to go but if he chooses not too then that's okay, too. Leo: you've not done that badly for a drop-out :) - WorldofHiglet

Dave: Thanks, Dave. Really appreciate it. Hopefully this discussion can continue on my blog, or I can embed this into my blog! - Daniel Brusilovsky

School is only one part of the equation. Many people get highly regarded degrees and do nothing with them. The converse is true of no or irrelevant degrees where the person goes on to do great things. With the internet being a wealth of knowledge today, if you have the drive to learn you will. If you have the drive to get ahead you will REGARDLESS of background or economic situation. An inner drive trumps and external degree always. - Damien Basile

The discussion is interesting, especially when you get other viewpoints and their own personal experiences. I see you as a smart guy with some potential that needs not to be capped - for any reason. What you have now is a start, and it could be much more when put in the right environment. - Louis Gray

Louis: The decision to go or not go to college will also me a major decision. My cousin's 18th birthday was on Friday and she's going to UCSB. I don't want to be the first in the family to not go to college. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Yes, Jesse: i did mine at night, 4 years, very hard, but you had to want it, had to love it. my eldest is at BoCo, end of freshman year. Loves it, is thriving. My next one, is 17, junior, i don't think he wants to go right out of HS and it's hard for me to make the convincing case as I waited a year+... each life holds its own choices. even parents - esp parents - can't help make up their minds. - Thom Kennon

Daniel: Find a college where you can structure your own major like Cooper Union in NYC does. You sit down with a counselor, pick out your classes and figure out what your direction and self-made major will be. It's your future. Craft it according to your interests in a hyperlocalized way. - Damien Basile

One thing about college is it shows an ability to set a goal and meet that goal, even if it is only getting a degree. While you can show this finishing trait in other ways, there are some who will always hold in the back of their mind, almost subconsciously 'this person didn't finish something they started' or 'this person ducked out when they saw the grass was greener somewhere else or things got too tough'. You'll be up against this bias the rest of your life without a degree. - Andrew Leyden

One candidate I interviewed had everything going for them, until we realized they hadn't put a degree next to the college they listed. Sure enough, no degree. This, with pressure from my boss (the VP) had us asking them more questions to confirm, yes, no degree, and why that was? A definite red flag in terms of completing tasks. - Louis Gray

Louis: No degree MAY be a red flag but I counter with this: Rei Kawakubo, fashion designer of the fashion empire Comme des Garçons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Although Rei does hold a degree in literature, I'm not too sure how this particular degree helped establish a fashion empire per se. A degree is only part of the equation- a major part right now, but as advances in areas happen faster so must degrees be modified quicker. After 2/4 years, that degree could be outmoded. - Damien Basile

I'd like to link this thread to a probably complementary one currently taking place in the blog "Design 4 Learning": http://deangroom.wordpress.com/2009... - Gladstone

It took me 15 years to get my BS degree in Psychology. I didn't always give my education the priority it needed and life very often got in the way. Because of my lack of diploma, I always felt I had to work harder and smarter to prove to employers that the lack of a degree wasn't holding me back. That strategy worked for a long time and then I hit the ceiling and I realized I needed to... more... - ♥patricia♥

I feel old. But listen to Louis. If he told me to jump off of the golden gate bridge i'd strongly consider it. - drew olanoff

Daniel, Talk to Jessica Mah, I bet you'd have some great convos. - drew olanoff

Drew: I talk to Jessica a lot, and we've talked about this before, but she also took a mini gap year. - Daniel Brusilovsky

She didn't rule it out entirely? - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

She didn't. Now she's a CS major at Berkley. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Just to throw in about jobs and all... I came fresh out of HS looking for a job. A well-known bank snapped me up relatively shortly afterwards. Literally, given the situation and the training that bank provides, I could find myself sitting in a very comfy office making a pretty good salary without even touching college. AND I would beat out any college grad looking for a job, as I would have first dibs on the position. 2 things played a factor in this, my podcast and the connections I had at the bank. ;) - Taylor Marek

Interesting discussion. I would caution anyone, however, on dispensing advice to someone that is essentially tantamount to racking up $80K+ in debt on something that is superfluous in the space for which Daniel is working/seeking a career. A college degree is no longer a key differentiator or a pre-requisite in many fields (tech being one of them) especially when you have access to vast... more... - Gennefer Snowfield

Excellent points Gennefer. But, since I'm working at a decided disadvantage in my professional field online research) because I don't have a degree in a related field, I have to add a caveat: most of the time the lack of a college degree can be overcome, but it's that it is seen as a lack of training/experience with either future employers and/or clients that makes me pause before... more... - Molly

Nothing like going deep into debt to learn from the fucktards at uni that never DID anything. The internet has completely destroyed the need to learn from the learned. The new learned are younger, smarter, and more motivated to succeed than the absolute losers who teach from an obsolete textbook POV whatever. As an internet marketer I laugh at myself for wasting five years in school when I could have retired by now had I gone with my gut. - Ryan Underdown from fftogo

Thanks for sharing, Molly. My point is that it is definitely not necessary in areas such as tech/start up entrepreneurship. Just take a look at @tatango and his success as a "college dropout CEO." It's his own company so he does not need to abide by antiquated requirements in Corporate America. And having spent a majority of my career in that world before starting my own company, I can... more... - Gennefer Snowfield

I still have over a year to decide what I want to do. We'll see... - Daniel Brusilovsky

Gennifer, I'm actually a real world example of your point. I don't believe for a minute it will take me 4 or more years to establish the trust necessary for clients to look to me for online research assistance. I just wish I had that degree so I wouldn't have to do the hard work of building the trust from the beginning. A degree would add gravitas to my new website and customers would... more... - Molly

@Ryan wrote: "Nothing like going deep into debt to learn from the fucktards at uni that never DID anything" Depends on your perspective. I got a scholarship in high school (good thing because my Dad died when I was 12), saved the money and used it to pay tuition at state university, where I learned from scientists and engineers who had built companies or contributed to the intellectual... more... - Victor Panlilio

For the last eleven and three quarter years of my education, none of my in-school instruction has taught me how to do what I love to do, want to do, or need to do in order to earn a living. It has, however (despite my stellar academic record and work habits) set a foundation for learning abilities, the structure of education, which will ultimately allow me to learn for my intended profession once I begin to attend college. - Michael Perlman

Molly, I have never had one client ask me about my education, or my GPA, or to produce school transcripts. The trust of which you speak is built by the results that I am able to generate in advancing their business objectives, and I can tell you that not one of the hundreds upon hundreds of successful initiatives I have employed over the years ever manifested from some college textbook.... more... - Gennefer Snowfield

There are plenty of people who have done much with their lives and choose to accept positions at colleges and universities to teach what they have learned. Apparently they see the value in education. Go figure. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

The fact that a large group of people here are saying you need a degree to get past a specific glass ceiling in many places means it's something worth getting. Necessary to succeed, no, but will it put you ahead of those people willing to work just as hard as you with just as much experience and knowledge? Yes. From an entrepreneur perspective think about potential VCs and the thick... more... - Jesse Stay

College is very important in today's world. Even though it may just be a piece of paper, it is an important piece of paper, and like Luis said, you wouldn't want to believe it, but it is the name that will sometimes open up certain opportunities for you that you wouldn't normally think of. I am not trying to change your mind, but you shouldn't rule college completely out, plus you have another year to think it over like you said. - Richard

University is important, but it depends on what you want to do. If you want to go into something tech related, teaching, etc, get a degree. If you want to be a plumber or carpenter, then don't. Go through the apprenticeship program through the local community college and union. Do what you want. - Amy H.

I dropped out. - Ryan Dadey

I tell clients that your spouse can divorce you, your kids will move away and your house can burn down, but your COLLEGE DEGREE is non-revocable and forever yours. Go get it - even if it is in underwater basket weaving. It is visible proof that you can set and achieve a socially approved goal. AND yes, challenge all the classes you can, they still make you $$$$pay$$$$ for the units you are credited with but it is fun to show what you know. - Sonya

Jesse - Are there still companies who put weight on a degree, yes. I don't think anyone refutes that. But it depends entirely upon if you want a career within the hierarchy of Corporate America or an entrepreneurial direction, in which case I continue to contend that it is not necessary. And I don't know one VC who wouldn't invest in a sound concept with clearly defined revenue model... more... - Gennefer Snowfield

The great thing I've found, as an entrepreneur, is that if I want to bootstrap my business, because of my degree I always have an option of something I can do on the side to pay for the business. Without the degree I wouldn't have as many options, especially in this economy. For instance, I can always go teach at a community college, or work in something completely unrelated to my... more... - Jesse Stay

In a tight job market you can be sure someone with a degree is going to have more weight when a potential employer is going through a stack of resumes. Face it, a college degree is what high school used to be. Yes you can go into a trade but then when you want to do something else you will be less inclined to go back to school for four years. I was very lucky and was in a situation where I could go back at age 38, most people can't. - Mick (Michael) Neal

Gennefer, again, my point is if you're going up against someone with equivalent experience and knowledge, the person with the degree always gets the job, funding, or whatever else you're going for. The degree is just one more thing that can set you apart from the others. - Jesse Stay

BTW, I've had that happen before, and I was the one without the degree - guess who didn't get the job? - Jesse Stay

Daniel, go to college. Just because it didn't work for Arrington, doesn't mean it won't work for you. Follow your passion. You'll do wonders. - Michael Forian

The former president of Reed College, Paul Bragdon, described it as a place where you "learn how to learn." Frankly, this is more important than the credential that you receive, and it's hard to duplicate this experience outside of the college environment. - John E. Bredehoft from fftogo

Jesse - Once again, my point is to make that determination based upon if you're looking to work in a vertical where a degree is required or more heavily weighted. The fact of the matter is that Daniel is not, and he could easily build upon his experience in the tech space and the credibility of the work he's done to date in creating a successful career, and likely his own company where it won't matter whether he has a framed college diploma hanging on his wall or not. - Gennefer Snowfield

Paraphrasing Thomas Merton: "The most useful function of a university education is to force you to deal with the question of your self-identity." - Victor Panlilio

Gennefer, I'm a software developer. What vertical is any less dependent on a college degree? Yet I've still missed out on jobs because I didn't have a degree. You never know if you're going to have to change verticals to support the family or put food on the table. It is those times a degree is a must. If this weren't important, why do you think the Bill Gates Foundation is focusing on... more... - Jesse Stay

Ask Karl Malone what he thinks about staying in school. When I was in college, he was touring the US encouraging kids to get a degree. He said that he dropped out of college to go into the pros, but that he'd told his mother he would go back and finish. It looks like he didn't finish, but I wonder if that diminishes the message any. You decide. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Founder of Red Hat dropped out of College to start Red Hat. He went back to school later on because it made him look more reputable on the records of Red Hat having that degree. - Jesse Stay

Depends on your goals. College is not for everyone. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

Rahsheen: "College is not for everyone." No, it's not. But for those who are intellectually curious and want to be exposed face to face to some of the best minds (and I'm not talking just about profs, your fellow students can be quite amazing people), college can be a unique and valuable part of one's formation as a human being. - Victor Panlilio

I have a friend who's been running an ISP here in town since the mid-90's. He dropped out of college. I'm a PC tech with a MS. My friend tells me I've accomplished more, because I've got two degrees. We don't agree. However, I will still tell anyone I meet that I believe in education for most. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

Thank you all for your kind words of advice. Over the summer my parents and I are going to discuss college plans. I'm sure Louis will update you then :) - Daniel Brusilovsky

Victor, I have to say online social sites and blogs expose one to many more 'best minds' than attending college would. Not that I'm against attending college, but it's not a valid point. I can go to church and expose myself to the same level of intelligence I would find on any college campus. Education does not equate to intelligence. - Molly

Good luck, Daniel. Decide what you want to do based upon your own expectations/career decisions, not ours. - Molly

Molly - maybe I'm just too old, but the minds I've interacted with in person have made a much deeper impression on me than any I have interacted with online. Human beings are so much more than disembodied words on a screen. - Victor Panlilio

u gotta go to college man. its the best years of your life and ull be missing out if u dont. trust me, ull never have as much fun as u will in college; and i dont mean just the socializing part, you get to learn a lotta cool stuff, take all sorts of different classes, meet some very interesting people and make lifelong friendships in the process. u mentioned that youre more interested... more... - goutham

Dave, yet, each of those didn't quit school until they were making their millions. 9 in 10 businesses fail. You're going to be working a lot harder without a degree than with. - Jesse Stay

Victor, I'm 51, so I doubt you're older than I am. I try to have a fresh mind, open to innovation and new ideas. I'm not that concerned with a 'face to face' interaction when it involves intellectual pursuits, which is what we were discussing. Personal interaction is a different subject and yes, I prefer that face to face if possible. - Molly

Jesse, how many college degrees result in a successful career in the field of study, though? I think the stats would be close, making your point irrelevant to the discussion (no disrespect intended). - Molly

btw, I'm interacting with a lot of intellectually stimulating people right now. Interesting, yes? :-) - Molly

Molly wrote: "Education does not equate to intelligence." I didn't say that it did. But the vetting process that occurs in most good schools is an indicator that someone who gets into MIT is likely to show a great deal of intellectual promise, which may (or may not) translate into future career success. - Victor Panlilio

We are online because we (a) have time and (b) are interested in conversation. That is all. I can have much more intense conversations in person, simply because body language, intonation, etc. all play a part in communication. Text on a screen is bereft of much emotional nuance. - Victor Panlilio

Victor, and how many with that promise go on to success in their major? Besides, IMHO the vetting process is very flawed in that there are other criteria used in selecting who goes where and when. Raw intelligence doesn't translate well into a successful career or even a socially adept adult sometimes. - Molly

Victor, I'm online because I'm a self-learner, educating myself in my chosen career field. I MAKE time to study. You're under a microscope right now. heh I'm not interested in emotional nuance when I'm learning from a greater mind than mine. I wouldn't care if a professor had a facial tic, hair growing out his/her ears and/or mumbled so badly they had to write everything on the... more... - Molly

Molly - I'm not saying that it does, i.e. "raw intelligence doesn't translate well into a successful career or even a socially adept adult sometimes" because that assumes a narrow definition of intelligence. As Ken Robinson's TEDTalk on creativity asserts, we need to expand our working definition of intelligence, and that includes what has commonly been labeled as "creativity" - one of... more... - Victor Panlilio

First of all that's the greatest Friendfeed conversation ever. It is amazing. I'm 16 years old too like you Daniel, and the topic "college" is getting day to day closer to me too. I'm not from the States so I assume that the "GPA" is the paper you get after finishing High School and from which, it depends if you'll be accepted from a college, right? Here in Greece, we have a similar... more... - Apostolos Papadopoulos

Friendfeed sayed: 4051 characters (part of your comment may be hidden behind a link). LOL.WUT.1st time fer me. XD - Apostolos Papadopoulos

Good conversation! I've got 3 college degrees form 10 years of school. It was worth it for me. - Bill Sodeman

Another advantage to college is it gives you exposure to things you may have never known you needed later in life. As an entrepreneur this is priceless - you'll need a wide breadth of knowledge in all kinds of different fields to properly come up with the creative ideas necessary to be most competitive. In college not only did I learn software dev, but I learned marketing, accounting,... more... - Jesse Stay

Victor, are you reading the comments? We're participating in "vibrant, intellectual ferment" and we're not on a campus. I LOVE the internet! I won't throw scholarly quotes at you as I'm not college educated. I'll just keep saying scissors because I AM stubborn and opinionated. :-) "Ken Robinson's talk highlights the need for people to be in a milieu that enhances their self-understanding, which is much more than listening to a prof drone on in a lecture hall." Like an online discussion on FF? :-) - Molly

I totally agree with Jesse on that! - Apostolos Papadopoulos

Haha amazing that this all started with Daniel congratulating me on Texas Tech and my twitter reply asking him about college. I believe Daniel should do what he feels right. That's what I am doing. - Matt Pippen

I've been unable to make anything from what I learned in college. I went back to maritime industry and took a class to get my captain's license. I was in and out in 6 weeks. If it wasn't for the recession I would be making 6 figures right now. Would have I gone to college from what I know now? Yes, for I learned some business marketing skill that will help me down the line. But that was... more... - Captain Jack

Matt: I know, right! One tweet can start oh so much :) - Daniel Brusilovsky

Molly - I've been on Usenet since the late 1980's. Friendfeed is a rehash of much of what I saw on Usenet, including the intellectual pretentiousness. When you're in a lab designing something that has to work AND work safely, it helps immensely to have understanding of what it means when you don't design your experiment correctly and the thing can blow up on your face. (I'm biased,... more... - Victor Panlilio

Jesse, online I've exposed myself to almost everything possible (except porn, I draw the line @ that). I have a vast repository of knowledge available. College libraries post their sites online. I have access to all of them, not just one. Victor, I believe I separated some fields from my discourse such as education and especially medicine. I'll add mechanical engineering as you make a good case for it but it's not one that comes to my mind on the fly so I left it out earlier. - Molly

All - here's something that captures a bit of the irony in the engineering professions: mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets. The groaning can now begin. :-D - Victor Panlilio

Molly, college gives you a different experience, a more "human" experience, if you will, one that does not involve sitting motionless in front of a screen, but one that involves browsing shelves, interacting with professors, making new friends, and learning how to live life for yourself. Even though so much information is available online and one can have so many enriching experiences... more... - Kabren Levinson

Kabren, Sorry I didn't make it clear I also visit my local library frequently. The discussion is great here online. I also have discussions w/friends, relatives, complete strangers who I strike up a conversation with. I'm sorry, college isn't the be all and end all it's portrayed as, though it's value is obvious in some fields of study. - Molly

Look at his friends already. Are we really concerned that this kid is gonna fail if he drops out? The ones we should be trying to help don't even know this place exists, and even if they did they wouldn't know how to talk to get through to the movers and shakers here.. - Andy Connell

My point was that Karl Malone was already a multi-millionaire when he vowed to finish his education. He STILL thought it was important, even when he had clearly made it. I wish I could get him to tell me, himself, why he didn't finish. - MiniMage TKDteacher of FF

On a more serious note....Daniel I really think you should go to Mo's. You gotta go. Gotta go to Model's. - Harry Wolff

Good point Andy. That's why when Paul (Buchheit) asked what he should do with $20K, my suggestion was to endow scholarships for academically gifted but financially challenged youth. - Victor Panlilio

Andy, I so agree re: Daniel. Daniel has already proven himself as a self starter. I homeschooled my children and his abilities/nature are what is fostered so well in a homeschooling environment and why colleges are so open to homeschooled children. They don't have to be taught so much as left to learn. - Molly

Most of those I consider great minds and innovators in this industry dropped out of college and/or never obtained a degree. I think another important distinction is that those who feel stifled in the classroom are leaders who are ready to go out and do, not sit behind a desk regurgitating textbook material. The fact of the matter is that many hide in academia for various reasons -- ego... more... - Gennefer Snowfield

Molly - we HS'ed our son (now 9 yo) for the first few years to allow him to develop a fuller sense of who he is (John Holt and John Taylor Gatto influenced my thinking on this - I came across their writing in graduate school). This is not to suggest that homeschooling is for everyone, either, just as college is not for everyone. - Victor Panlilio

Gennefer: You summed it up great! - Matt Pippen

Gennefer: "Most of those I consider great minds and innovators in this industry" such as Tim Berners-Lee? David Heinemeier Hansson? Les Vadasz? Bill Joy? James Gosling? Daniel Hillis? Stephen Wolfram? Vinton Cerf? John Warnock? Funny thing is, some people don't even need to go through undergrad, they're admitted directly into PhD programs, and they can be doing postdoctoral work at... more... - Victor Panlilio

At least go to a technical school. A good college teaches you more than skill, though; it teaches you to teach yourself. - Peter Warnock

Peter: "A good college teaches you more than skill, though; it teaches you to teach yourself." Up to a point. I barely passed my quantum mechanics course, and I'm still shell-shocked from the experience. But it helped me gain some appreciation for mathematical conundrums. - Victor Panlilio

Folks, let's get some perspective here. Everyone has their own opinion and insights, all of which are valid in their own right, but the fact of the matter is that college is not for everyone, and we live in a new age where antiquated, hierarchical-based systems are no longer the only way to operate -- nor should they be. And if you continue to impose such an overly-structured bias, you... more... - Gennefer Snowfield

Gennefer: "Everyone has their own opinion and insights, all of which are valid in their own right" This is code language for something called subjectivism, which any attentive undergrad taking a basic philosophy course would immediately identify. A university education is not simply to prepare a young person for a "career" but to instill in them the habits of mind that allow for the... more... - Victor Panlilio

Folks -- it's been recommended elsewhere, but I'll recommend it here: read Larry Page's May 2 commencement address to the Univ. of Michigan: http://tinyurl.com/c5ydg8 - Victor Panlilio

Let's consider the example of, say, MIT, the pre-eminent engineering school. They make much of their curriculum available online, so in theory any highly motivated autodidact can use it to learn, say, computational fluid dynamics or finite element analysis. But the simple reality is that, despite having free access to all the lecture notes, the person who gorges on the theory is likely... more... - Victor Panlilio

No suck college,go to smart web.:) - Igor Poltavskiy

Make no mistake: college CAN suck, especially if you haven't figured out what really turns your crank intellectually. In his May 2 commencement speech, Larry Page said he was considering 3 different topics for his PhD thesis, but his adviser told him to focus on the web - best advice he got. - Victor Panlilio

college can be like mass media since you are getting a view from one authority that you must listen to. With social media, you can compile your own reliable sources and get info without a bias. In the same way, you can get a better education with all the sources online. There are many colleges offering their courses online but you will only get grades and a diploma if you pay tuition... more... - Amir

Amir: "college can be like mass media since you are getting a view from one authority that you must listen to." If you go to a diploma mill, maybe. A good university exposes you to different viewpoints, and it's up to you to work through the proofs, although in the natural sciences you're going to be up against terrible odds if, say, you propose to disprove Godel's Incompleteness Theorem or the Lorentz transformation equations and you're not already a mathematical prodigy. - Victor Panlilio

Amir, yes, but that's not what all colleges do. At least that's not what my experience has been so far in a small liberal arts college. What a _really_ good university or college does, is it allows you to challenge what you love with others. When you're on your own, you're on your own. You're not going to be able to sit in a seminar on Socrates and talk about how Aristophanes' "Clouds"... more... - Kabren Levinson

I agree with liberal arts and some sciences and other majors... I was just expressing an opinion based on my experience in Business school where I learned pretty much everything I know and use, on my own. There are so many resources out there to challenge yourself, to compete against others online and at other companies and institutions. The main thing is that if you go out on your own,... more... - Amir

Ah, I didn't know that - I'm a philosophy major probably concentrating in Art, Computer Science, or Psychology, at Bard, with only 1700 students. Really about what the individual wants to do. It's to bad so many people don't get to have a positive experience in education. - Kabren Levinson

Kabren, I had and continue to have a very positive experience in education. I learn every day online, from friends, from networking, from paying attention... I hope to never end this education. - Amir

The beauty of college (beyond the degree) is it allows people to mature intellectually and emotionally in a rich environment, filled with smart people and stimulating discussions.This is the time of self discovery. You hear the anecdotes about the Woz and Jobs types and all the railings against the "antiquated" edu system. But for 99% of the 18 year olds, college still offers the best... more... - mark ivey

mark: Woz went to college after he started Apple. For extra bonus points, what name did he use? Hint: It wasn't his real name. - Robert Scoble

rocky clark? (you owe me a beer ;) - mark ivey

you're right..I forgot Woz went back and got a bachelors (electrical engineering computer sciences)...I had to research all this before I interviewed him on stage few months back..thanks for making me refresh my brain.. - mark ivey

Sorry I'm late! ;) I am 27 and going back to school to finish after getting deployed overseas in my early 20s and never getting the chance to finish. Marriage and two kids later I regret not having finished. It isn't that I must have a degree to make things work. Heck, we are doing ok right now, BUT to pursue the career I want to, I do need that piece of paper. I was home schooled... more... - Sid Burgess

Sid: we often hear of people in their 50s and 60s going back to get a college education, even if their livelihoods no longer depend on having a degree. They recognize that self-directed learning is possible even in an institutional setting. That's the point some of us have been trying to make in response to the stereotypes that have been bandied around in this discussion thread. - Victor Panlilio

mark: yeah, he used Rocky Raccoon Clark. Your geek cred card will be renewed for another year. :-) - Robert Scoble

Verifying that a comment directly to Louis's blog gets through to FF in real time.... wondering why the FF API doesn't yet expose the same featureset this widget does. - Daniel J. Pritchett

Daniel, as @thecreativeone says in this vid, "don't even think twice [about college]." http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Michael Perlman

Daniel Brusilovsky

The conversation we've had on FriendFeed that @louisgray has started is amazing. Read it here: http://friendfeed.com/louisgr...

May 3 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Michael Perlman, Apostolos Papadopoulos and Louis Gray liked this

Robert Scoble

Sign on Leo Laporte's studio

January 4, 2009 from email - Comment - Like - Share

Emily Miller, David Z, Kol Tregaskes and 69 other people liked this

This sign seems to be a good motto for a friendfeed room. Thanks for joining us -- we are driving home now. - Robert Scoble from email

27 more comments

Was fun to watch too :) - Simon Wicks

I saw you, Patrick, Daniel B. and the rest of the crew sitting on (or standing next to) the ball. - Michael Perlman

Yeah, it was fun. They had so much more to talk about. Never enough time. - W. Kirk Crawford

Hahaha. Great Show! - Brent Cappello

Great show Robert. - Douglas Karr

great show :-) - Simon

Good show - Bwana ☠

Great Show - Tyler (Chacha) from IM

you're not driving home yet! - Chris Heath

great show guys, loved seeing Scoble's live show also. - Chris Pugh

Really enjoyed the show! Could have easily been a 2 hour show. - Keith Beucler

i love this! great show today. - Lise

Leo... Have scoble do a IM A Twit - Joe K

Awesome show! Dvorak was so grouchy, it was great! :D - CannonGod

Steve is going to plug feedsqueezer - Bwana ☠

Where can u find the video the FF video scoble did? - Claes Krantz

Awesome show to see live! - Billy Doyle

Leo should add a clause that says " TWIT is no responsible for any violation of NDA's or any other legal bindings." It is quite dangerous when people slip and forget they are on camera. - Steven (optionshiftk)

"After entering this studio, NDA stands for No Dumb Agreements" - Billy Doyle

Now, Gillmor is on the line. I hope he read this post. - Steven (optionshiftk)

That was a great show, learned a lot! - LA Snark

@Claes Krantz: Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing that too :) - CannonGod

Great show Robert! - Laura Zickus

Another T.W.I.T is in the...you know what I mean! Enjoyed the show! - Reggie L.

That would be smart - Tyler (Chacha) from IM

You cept asking if it was live lol.... - ralphsaunders

I can't even tell you the number of times I've seen people trash careers, friendships, and advertising accounts by taking for granted that a studio microphone isn't live. - Chris Baskind

That was a great show! The sign is great :) - Justin Levy

Robert Scoble

Does http://be-a-magpie.com bug you? If I were @ev I would block this ad network from Twitter. Discuss:

November 23, 2008 - Comment - Like - Share

zeroinfluencer, Sophia Lucero, Katie Heikkinen and 33 other people liked this

Twitter should make sure it is only one to build systemic monetization schemes on its service. But either way I don't like it when people "Amway" their friends. - Robert Scoble

76 more comments

http://twitter.com/willhig... - Will Higgins™

That's pretty rude towards Amway, RS! So, tell Twitter to start monetizing already. - jamesdkirk

I haven't seen it in action yet and don't want to try it in fear that I will loose all my followers. - Sweyn Venderbush

I'm not a fan. and they will get unfollowed if I see it in my stream - Erin @queenofspain

should we not let the twitter market work it out? Is there a major difference between twitter ads and ads on a blog? - jason keath

Does it violate their terms of service or something? I don't see how they can block it if not. Sure, it's annoying, and if I start seeing folks I follow using it heavily, I'll probably stop following. - Ken Sheppardson

Wow, I was going to blog about this in a few days. I think Twitter might want to block magpie and instead do this themselves! - AJ Kohn

Social Media is about sharing interesting things with people who find those things interesting, not about soapboxing crap and spamming others with random junk. Magpie is a service that doesn't understand that, and though it attempts (poorly) at doing some level of justice to spamming, it's still spam/ads and unwelcomed in my book. - Enrique Gutierrez

James: I was in Amway for a while. They totally try to get you to sell stuff to your friends. The comparison is very apt. - Robert Scoble

or they could let it run in a test phase, see if it works and then buy it like they did with summize...I'm still debating how I think Twitter should be monetized, but working for Google on the AdWords product I have some opinions :) - Derek Coatney

should Twitter create it's "magpie" rather than let magpie run riot? - Jansen Lu

I suspect this is happening already Robert. Everyone is gaming the system. - Mark Taylor

No, that was the training organization you belonged to. I was in for a while too. Amway products ARE top notch. And we all make recommendations ALL THE TIME to our friends. Plus you and I and others with online presence put ads on their blogs/sites/feeds. Is it any different? I don't really think so. - jamesdkirk

A while back I made a post that concluded that twitter is good for exactly one spam (http://seanreiser.com/node/342) because you can drop anyone who uses their influence to start spamming. (And, yes I think magpie tweets are spam). I dont know if twitter should block it, but I will avoid folks using it. - Bastard Operator From FF

It's close to what we have planned, but we think we have a better offering. Magpie bugs people, but I'd like to think http://twitAD.com won't. ;) - Andy A.

(warning, I talk about my company in this comment) - I believe our company has a better option (www.zenect.com). Instead of having full SMS ads come from you to all your followers, our ad network inserts 40 character (or less) tagline ads at the end of messages. We don't integrate with Twitter at this time but instead offer a full micro-blog + mobile ad network. And I agree with Jason that the market will determine whether Magpie is viable and popular. If people like it, more power to them. - Doug

I've offered up this for @ev and my fellow tweeters: http://bit.ly/3PZ56Y #tweetrocket - Jason Kintzler

Amway, er, Quixtar's products are fine. The marketing and distribution scheme is sleazy. - Robert Scoble

agree wholheartedly, Robert. Twitter is largely not a place for this type of marketing. I do not want ads in my Tweetstream. - Stephen Collins from twhirl

Robert, I'd love to tell you about OXY FRESH!!!!! KIDDING! But srsly, an Aunt of mine got sucked in to Oxy Fresh, another MLM scheme I think :) - Richard pancakhaus Walker

Nice intro, Doug ;) - jamesdkirk

yep, it sure does. Especially when those that I tend to click on their links more often have it enabled. Clicking on ads rather than a genuine recommendation from them is going against the grain of whay makes Twitter, friendfeed... all the SM tools useful. - Wendy Peters from twhirl

OK, I'll fess up. I've set up Magpie here. I've had it running about two weeks. I've had just one comment about it, and that wasn't really adversarial, and one person ask what it was, and they wanted to join. I've checked and it's sent out just 3 tweets since Friday, so not excessive. I'm monitoring it closely though, and if I got major objections, and/or lots of unfollows I'd review my participation. - Ian May

I'm not advocating one distribution system over another, but I find it interesting that a fellow who makes his living telling us all about the "latest thing" in order to inform us and let us know why we should like a service would compare this service with one that at base levels just uses social interaction to distribute its products - jamesdkirk

to those using magpie and claiming no negative vocal response I ask, have you monitored your unfollows? I know a lot of people will simply just unfollow you without saying anything, it's what I do. - Chris Pugh

but still, doesn't it all come down to "unfollowing" if you don't like what I'm sending in my stream? (presuming I was using this service?) Let's not forget that, folks! - jamesdkirk

I say "more power to them!" If people like what they do, it will succeed. If they don't, the people who sell their tweets will find they have no audience. Advertising runs our media-centric economy. As long as the market is free to opt out by unfollowing, Twitter will become what its users want it to be. - Kenneth LeFebvre

http://useqwitter.com will help out there CP. - jamesdkirk

dunno, Robert -- be-a-magpie says "scobelizer" is worth up to €22,816.42 per month. (presumably emphasis on the "up to") though one wonders if having your tweets BOOT CUT JEANS NOW ON SALE AT THE GAP constantly interrupted by BEN & JERRY'S VANILLA, NOW IN ORGANIC advertising will just make them TRY THE POPCORN SHRIMP PLATTER AT RED LOBSTER annoying. - Karim

@jamesdkirk that's exactly it ... the service pays by follower count, so the self defeating fact is simple. use magpie, get unfollowed, lose all your followers, stop using the service, start rebuilding your twitter network ... repeat? sounds stupid to me - Enrique Gutierrez from twhirl

@Chris I've had a few people unfollow me, and a few more follow me since I've started using it. I haven't noticed a sudden increase in unfollows, just normal turnover, when folks realize that they don't find my inane drivel very interesting after all... - Ian May

I'd do this if I were Twitter since they could insert ads at an appropriate rate for each users (based on tweets/hour) and type (based on keyword filtering). Only Twitter would be best at ensuring the ad load wasn't too high. And face it folks, they have to make money someway. It's this, subscriptions or banner ad mania. - AJ Kohn

@Scobleizer None of the people I follow use it. I threatened to un-follow if anyone signed up ;-) - Joseph McLaughlin

Perhaps a service like magpie could work out a deal with Twitter of some kind? - Ian May

I'd agree with AJ Kohn. I like the service they provide, and would deal with "tasteful" insertions. It or something similar will happen. And it WILL HAPPEN here on FF before long as well. Wait and see. - jamesdkirk

one more thing - If I want to be advertised at - I'll follow one or all of the spam bots that follow me. heh - Enrique Gutierrez from twhirl

If you are using magpie, your SNR inverts. It needs serious tweaking. Here's @geekmommy's post/discussion on #magpie: http://twurl.nl/ajtuf5 - Zena Weist

Is there an ad network where I can be paid to *refrain* from saying how much certain products suck? heh. - Karim

*thinking out loud* Could this be why Bezos invested ... does he see a massive new affiliate network via tweets? - AJ Kohn

it doesnt affect me as I have yet to see it in use. it seems everyone is looking out for retaining their 'Tribe' rather than making a quick nickel at their expense. . - timduke

One of my Twitter friends says he's unfollowed two people already after seeing their Magpie ads. - Michael Perlman

I have no problem with this. Twitter is victimless: if you don't like seeing #magpie tweets, unsubscribe the sender. Very simple. If I were Twitter, though, I'd boot be-a-magpie as a revenue competitor. - Chris Baskind

I think the difference between bloggers having ads on their blogs & using magpie is that an ad on a blog page is passive. Readers can choose to read them or not. It doesn't generate a text message or chirp or enter any life stream or feed. Personally, I think services like magpie somewhat "sully the stream" and make it less organic; more disingenuous. [disclosure - I am blogger w/ads in my sidebar - but don't use twitter to spam my readers/followers] - faryl

I also think it's a trust & etiquette issue. If I were John Chow (no offense to John) my readers might expect that - I'd be practicing what I preach. But as someone whose blog is about using social media to connect in positive ways, I don't know that it would be appropriate. Bottom line, if I have to think about "would this be ok to do", I probably should opt NOT do it. Maybe as twitter evolves and there are more filtering tools out there. But not now. I agree with geekmommy's post (thanks @Zena Weist) - faryl

Robert, I see this slightly different than Amway. With Amway you're directly approaching friends, which would be the equivalent of "DM"'ing all your friends a magpie. With this, you're simply putting an ad up above your house for all your friends to choose to look at or not. - Jesse Stay

this service caused us to write the only bad review to date - of over 100 reviews on Sociosophy.com --- http://www.sociosophy.com/blog... - Sociosophy Reviews from twhirl

Not one person has complained about my magpie tweets to me. Maybe I'm not worth the time? - bill giltner

Wow, I touched a nerve here. Will write a blog about my thoughts. Be back later. - Robert Scoble

@bill giltner - do you use qwitter? after people become aware of what this service does, that might be something to consider using. - Sociosophy Reviews

Sociosophy, Bill, SocialToo does what Qwitter does too - tracks both people that followed and unfollowed you and sends in a batch daily. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

yes it does, well at least my experience with socialtoo has shown that as I received an email today telling me who followed and who unfollowed. - Ray Marr aka Knatchwa from IM

@jesse_stay thanks for the tip! we'll have a look soon - Sociosophy Reviews from twhirl

Personally, I don't mind it. It makes Twitter into a real business tool. - Daniel Brusilovsky

Sociosophy I have to disclose my bias - I am the developer of SocialToo, so if it gives you any troubles let me know. - Jesse Stay from twhirl

We should be able to handpick ads we want to share with our friends, that's the most natural way to do it. - TunisianGuy

Social Media is not about having ads shoved at you without permission. If I see magpie in my stream, I will unfollow - Sylvia Webb

Personally I do not find it too obtrusive or annoying - that said I wish Twitter were doing it themselves because then I'd mind less. - Nation Hahn

in a related question... how do you feel about a service like @breakingnewson inserting ads with magpie ... let's face it, it would be better then the tweet-a-thon begging they seem to do... an they are more a service then a person tweeting - Bastard Operator From FF

Ancient Internet history (1978)--THE 1st email spam (http://www.templetons.com/brad...) "ON 2 MAY 78 DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION (DEC) SENT OUT AN ARPANET MESSAGE ADVERTISING THEIR NEW COMPUTER SYSTEMS. THIS WAS A FLAGRANT VIOLATION OF THE USE OF ARPANET AS THE NETWORK IS TO BE USED FOR OFFICIAL U.S. GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ONLY. APPROPRIATE ACTION IS BEING TAKEN TO PRECLUDE ITS OCCURRENCE AGAIN. THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION. MAJOR RAYMOND CZAHOR, CHIEF, ARPANET MANAGEMENT BRANCH, DCA" - Micah Wittman

Sorry, but I'm posting that link again (http://www.templetons.com/brad...) it's packed with interesting discussion. Another teaser quote (from RMS---YES Richard M. Stallman, that 'RMS') "Well, Geoff forwarded me a copy of the DEC message, and I eat my words. I sure would have minded it! Nobody should be allowed to send a message with a header that long, no matter what it is about." - Micah Wittman

Thanks, Robert for starting the discussion. These are very intersting views, positive and negative. Thank you all for the feedback. We've silently introduced a number of changes to Magpie yesterday to give tweeps more control over their magpie-tweets. You can now hand-select ads, put up your own disclaimer (other than #magpie) and control the tweet/ad-ratio better. I'm looking forward to reading your blog post and to getting more feedback in the comments. Thanks again. (I'm the CEO of Magpie & Friends Ltd.) - Jan Schulz-Hofen

TechCrunch just wrote about this issue here: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008... called it "PayPerPost for Twitter." - Robert Scoble

As of now, i haven't found Magpie to be that intrusive, probably because not many people I follow have subscribed for the service or there have been very few ads from Magpie. I might unfollow them if the ads starts becoming too frequent. I think the right way for Magpie to go is enabling only handpicked ads which users can share with their friends like any other info they want to share. However, if the same service was introduced by Twitter, I wouldn't mind at all. - Devakishor

@Jan It's great to see you here on FriendFeed joining in on this discussion. I've actually been very impressed with your service so far and the amount of consideration you've put into listening to users' feedback and adapting the service. As others have mentioned, I don't see serving ads in Twitter being much different than serving them in a blog. However, I do love the addition of your two latest features, as I think that puts even more control into the hands of the users, which is what we're all after. - Mike Templeton

@miketempleton thanks for your feedback. you one of the folks who mentioned that feature earlier on uservoice. it took us some time to implement, now let's see who people will like it. - Jan Schulz-Hofen

I'm thinking of adding a "Magpie kill switch" to TweetDeck so these tweets don't even get shown. - Iain Dodsworth

It's simple! If I see magpie in my stream, I will unfollow. - netvista

lain, you should just make a filter by keyword - tweets with specified keywords in the stream don't show - Jesse Stay from twhirl

As many people as I know who are having a hard time right now - or who would make a nice bit of change for doing, essentially, nothing - very few of them are actually desperate enough to do it. I'd love to have an extra $1700 a month, and I could easily double my follow count by following bots. Yet I'd never do this, not for 10x that. And I'm dumbfounded as to why anyone would want to monetize their personal conversations. "Brought to you by Carl's Jr." - Tinu Abayomi-Paul

Robert, I've never had more comments on a post (or more hits) than I did on my anti-magpie post. http://tinyurl.com/5hzkvg - it's still getting hits and comments. Honestly? I don't think it's viable. - Lucretia Pruitt

Its interesting to see how many out there are trying to monetize Twitter 'externally'. This is one but then there is also Tapulous with Tweetsville on the iphone - I paid $4 to them :) - Mrinal Desai

+1 for no ads by followers. I'm un-subscribing anyone who wants to monetize their twitter feed. There is already too much noise on twitter. If you think your content is monetizable, write a blog for Pete's sake! - Shivanand Velmurugan

I don't have a problem with people wanting to monetize their twitter accounts. I don't have a problem with selling ads in the network. My problem is that even if Magpie alternates 1 ad per 5 tweets, what if I follow 5 twits with Magpie. How often am I going to see an ad? The idea is pretty smart actually, but I think it needs a lot of work yet. - Jason Brett

It definitely bugs me!: http://thefutureofads.com/2008... Wrong medium, poorly formatted message, and it's (in most cases) paying people for things that they shouldn't be paid for (conversations with friends). If everyone was just broadcasting on Twitter, it would be a different story, but ads have no place in conversation (as seen by the anti-advertising backlash on forums) so they have no place on Twitter either, at least in this format. - Cory OBrien

PayPerPost destroyed blog valuations without adequate warning. Before loosing a Twitter account you spend time building it's best to take a wait and see approach. They are paying you because of your accounts value - will they reimburse you in the event the account is terminated? Just a thought. - Robert MacEwan

Magpie success will depend on the creative of the 'advert' - a cuckold tweet is likely to induce 'interesting' relationships. - zeroinfluencer

How is paid content different from any other advertising such as Adwords? Part of the visible site includes non-paid content, and some displays paid content. As long as they are accurately labeled, the reader can make an informed decision. - Mike Chelen

Robert Scoble

We are in the National Press Club where a ton of the most famous newspaper front pages are on the walls. I turned to my 14-year-old son and said "just think, in your lifetime you will see the death of newspapers. He answered: "yeah."

June 24, 2008 - Comment - Like - Share

Niall Connellan, Arvind, Josette Torres and 44 other people liked this

Yes, behaviors like reading the obits & finding out who lived in your community after it's too late to meet them will be history, along with the people who did that. Instead, we will be clicking "Like" on a message about the passing of someone, penned by a Friend of a Friend of a Friend, who happens to be the local obit writer. Different transport, same protocol. - Wade Dorrell

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News from the night before. Great idea at the time, current implementation lacks freshness. - Sam Pullara

Disagree. Paper is a wonderful medium -- cheap, disposable, high-res. Newspapers need to be reinvented to fill in the needs not yet filled by the Internet. - Mitch Wagner

Robert, the only reason newspapers will every die out is because the advertisement model may move away from them, making it impossible to keep printing the paper. People love newspapers. Seriously.And if you guys think that the 24x7 "real-time" on-line experience can ever match me sitting outside with a beautiful sunset, drinking my cup of coffee and skimming thought the news then I suggest you reconsider. - Alexander van Elsas

Mitch and Alexander: you guys are smoking great dope! Nobody my son's age is going to read newspapers. Even old people are telling me they aren't reading them anymore. Including congressmen!!! But that's not the real reason. The real reason is because they are freaking expensive to distribute and will become more and more expensive over time compared to digital media. Add that to the fact that the business model is disappearing VERY QUICKLY and you can see that within 15 years most newspapers not be printed - Robert Scoble

On the other hand, newspaper brands will certainly survive. Almost all the journalists I talk with see this trend very clearly now. Paper is just not a good way to distribute information anymore and it will get worse and worse with each year that goes by. Soon (within 20 years) you both will be dead and will be replaced by people who wouldn't think of reading stuff on paper. Seriously. - Robert Scoble

Robert, not on dope;-) Actually you are giving the same reason for their extinction as I am. the business model! But for reading, I bet that I know more people that do read them than people that stopped reading them. And in Holland major brand newspapers are experimenting with different reading formats aimed at young people, faster news, less long articles, more pictures in them. They will adapt to the reading behavior, but the business model is what will really kill them. - Alexander van Elsas

Alexander: Funny, the publisher of the Washington Post told me a few years back that a little more than half the people in DC start their morning with the Washington Post. But he admitted he's losing and that's why he's investing like crazy into online media. Personally paper won't be able to turn the corner. Kids want the immediacy (so do we, look at what's happening here) and will never accept paper news. Books might be safe for a while longer, but I can see a day where even they are gone. - Robert Scoble

Hear hear Robert, I live in a one (print) newspaper town (Perth, Western Australia) and the one newspaper until recently really did nothing on the web, they didn't get it, recently another publisher has opened an online only news service and suddenly they are playing catch up, they will never compete with their old mentality. No one I know reads print based newspapers any more, yet currently they still hold exceptional influence? go figure that one out! - Darren Entwistle

Anyway I agree that the print based model for information delivery of daily news will expire with those who currently buy it to read the obituary column! - Darren Entwistle

Robert, this immediacy thing. I am not so sure about it. Everyone loves immediacy (I do too), children love it. But I also believe there is a need for balance in life. Not everything needs to be immediate. Kids will grow up and find that balance too, just like we are. Maybe not in newspapers. But I can tell you right now that if everything is immediate, the idea of immediacy will become less important. Everything that comes up must come down ;-) - Alexander van Elsas

Can't believe I said that while I haven't actually finished my first cup of coffee this morning ;-) - Alexander van Elsas

Alexander: sorry, it's a NEWSpaper. When it comes to news, immediacy is HUGELY important. News isn't news if it's old. - Robert Scoble

Robert, hah, you haven't been reading newspapers lately have you ;-) There is the immediate stuff, and there is all that other stuff which makes up probably 50% or more of today's newspapers. But I do agree of course that the important stuff is best when it's fresh and immediate. But there will be som much of that, that we will find slow news more interesting. It's a balancing act. Hmm, I feel a possibility for a blog post here ;-) - Alexander van Elsas

Alexander: I read them once in a while when I am in a hotel room and they leave them in front of the door (like the room I'm in now). They make me feel even stronger that their time is over soon. It's just a horribly expensive distribution channel and people are being trained against reading them. - Robert Scoble

@Robert give it a rest bud .. the number of people who don't "get" newspapers is infisimal compared to the rest of society that does. Whether it be the small local newspaper to the national dailies. They aren't going anywhere soon. - Steven Hodson

On several occasions the past weeks I have hesitated to cancel my newspaper subscription, almost everything is "old" news, but like Alexander said there is so much more to newspapers than news, especially the "quality" newspaper I read. I still buy it for the opinion and editorials, the in-depth series on specific issues around the world. But I do spend less time with it than 2-3 years ago. - Marc Dierens

Sorry Scoble, -- good, deep, accurate, thorough, analytical reporting doesn't come immediately. Think pieces don't come immediately. Papers are already adopting a philosophy of breaking the news on the Web, then spinning it forward in the paper to tell you why it's important and, in particular, why it's important to MY community, MY school district, MY city council. Newspapers will be around a long time delivering analytical pieces on local news, even when breaking news is exclusively online. - Kevin Hessel

Steven: I remember the day when a Kodak exec told me that digital photography would never happen. I also remember the day when you all weren't using PCs. I also remember the day before email. Before IM. Before the Web. Things are changing. Let's meet again in a decade and see how many newspapers survived. Some will still be around in a decade, but the trend will be very clear by then. - Robert Scoble

Kevin: and why can't that stuff all be delivered over the Web? Any rule that good, deep, thorough, analytical reporting can't be delivered online? No. In the meantime, delivering a newspaper to your home is an expensive way to deliver news (readership has been going down in every survey I've seen) and the advertising world won't spend money on newsprint anymore because it simply isn't efficient compared to online. Already in SF newspapers are laying people off in droves. - Robert Scoble

Andy C: not to be crude or anything, but people like you are dying and are being replaced with people who don't complain about screen text sizes. I've heard all these arguments. They won't wash, sorry. And newspapers are NOT cheap to deliver. They are HORRIBLY expensive when compared to online media. You really need to visit a printing plant to see just how expensive these things are. - Robert Scoble

Robert, I would disagree....or should I say it will not atleast happen in your son's lifetime...the reason being that technology penetration needed atleast in developing countries is still not up to that mark, to be able to replace the plain vanilla newspaper. And another reason is personal: I still like to hold something in my hand.Thats why never liked e-books too except for tech readup :) - Arjun

No rule, but your initial point was that news needs to be immediate for newspapers to survive, and the Web is more immediate, therefore newspapers won't survive. Are we abandoning that? If we are, then we've opened ourselves up to any printed form -- the death of books, the death of magazines, even the death of newspapers -- that should have come from TV and radio, which use the same broadcast model as the Web (advertiser supports station, user experiences what they perceive to be as "free"). Still here! - Kevin Hessel

Has your son ever read a newspaper given he has been raised in the internet age? - Michael McGimpsey from twhirl

PS You are right though. Newspapers have a limited life - Michael McGimpsey from twhirl

Layoffs are also due to owners expecting ridiculous profit margins. Papers thrived on 20-25% margins - far more than the oil industry is being criticized for. And now paper owners are beholden to their debt-holders, so they can't even reconsider acceptance of more realistic profit margins. Solution: Lay people off and cut costs like mad. They still pull in 12-15% margins -- about the same as Exxon -- but they're being called dead. (*And* don't forget "user experience.") - Kevin Hessel

I think I've got a question here. Is the newspaper as a physical medium dying (that is, the newsPAPER), or are we talking about the medium? If it's the first one, I'm totally with you: newspapers are dying, fast. They will eventually be replaced by the Internet and maybe e-books. Paper is expensive and non-ecological. But, if you say that journalism is due to die with newspaper, then I... more... - Federico F. from twhirl

Andy: like I said, that's expensive compared to the marginal cost of digital media. The thing you are forgetting is that anyone who wants to be part of modern society will have to have a computer or a capable cell phone anyway. Kevin: yeah, I know that companies are needing better margins to keep up with the investor expectations. Anyway, I'm off to bed. Hopefully Patrick has a long life so I will be right. If he lives another 60 years, which is about the average lifespan for a male in USA, then he'll... - Robert Scoble

...definitely see the death of newspapers. I think most newspapers that we are now seeing will die in next decade due to the business model imploding (it's going to get a lot worse as advertisers realize they can get a much more efficient buy online and as more people come online). The costs will continue going up, too (gas costs, for instance, raises the price of getting newsprint and ink to printing plants -- paper and ink are heavy things and take a lot of energy to move around). - Robert Scoble

There is a keen appreciation of the context in which stories display in print that cuts to a core McLuhan belief that part of the message delivered in print derives from the medium through which it arrives. If print is dead, there should be no appreciation of that significant relationship among teens, yet I work with junior high school students who tell me otherwise. I don't believe printed dailies will cease to be a significant social fixture inside the next 20 years. - Bernie Goldbach

Bernie: well, like I said, I gave my son his lifetime to see these changes. That'd be 60 years, if he lives out his average life expectancy (which probably will go up in his lifetime). But I'm already seeing these changes happen, and, so, I personally expect that you'll see many newspapers disappear in the next decade. I doubt they'd all disappear. Heck, steam locomotives are still being used in some parts of the world even though we haven't seen those in use in decades in the US. - Robert Scoble

Not sure I agree with your prediction - but for reasons far simpler than most of those listed above. Television did not kill radio. Cable has yet to kill network TV. Computers have yet to kill TV. DVD/VHS/etc has yet to kill the movie theater. Will many newspapers 'die'? Probably. But I doubt that the entire medium will disappear any more that I believe that the Kindle will replace an actual bound book. - Lucretia Pruitt

Scoble, If you are in DC on Thursday, go check out conductor Leonard Slatkin's farewell concert at Kennedy Center ($20-$80). Plus thursday, they have AfterWords discussion, where you get to talk to Leonard. Guest Celloist Sol Gabetta plays Shostakovich. I highly recommend sitting in front row. I saw Sarah Chang play Brahms w/ Leonard in Jan. here is link: http://tinyurl.com/yteq49 - Pokai

Robert, decided to take one part of this, your immediacy comment, and wrote about it. My 2cts? It's gonna be way less important once it is there for all of us. http://tinyurl.com/59rzyx - Alexander van Elsas

I almost joined the National Press Club, but then I thought better of it. - Josette Torres

I look to Japan, which has a fantastic internet infrastructure and great tech uptake rates but still has a growing newspaper industry. Sadly alot of 'new media' news resources sacrifice fact checking and impartiality for speed. Its very hard to build up trust with your audience and thats the key for building a loyal readership. - Steven Cains

I've learned never to use my children as a focus group for an entire generation -- especially when it comes to using technology that is expensive and requires a certain level of education, sophistication and affluence. I've also learned that new media rarely "kills" old media -- it "changes" the role of old media, but does so slowly and over many generations. I have no doubt the "newspaper" as we know it will be extinct one day. However, I also know the technology replacing it will follow it into extinction - Rex Hammock

My dad stopped buying the NY Post after the price recently doubled. He said that the Post is a rag of a newspaper and that most of the news is online in half the time. He also noted that the newspaper vendor he went to lost most of his business. - Michael Perlman

Robert Scoble

We just attended five minutes of Mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral. I can't believe I got @rocmanusa into a church! @michaelper22 is with us 2

June 22, 2008 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Holger Eilhard and Michael Perlman liked this

I think I'd melt or at least throw up. I did my 18 years! Hey Robert, are you going to Jeff's breakfast on Tuesday? - Christine Cavalier

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The music was beautiful. On Tuesday we will be in DC. Check my blog for our schedule. Http://scobleizer.com - Robert Scoble

like: st pats mass is impressive, very old school and culturally diverse - i usually get my ashes there on way to work each year - mike "glemak" dunn

from Steve Jobs' cathedral to God's. Or is that from the bazaar to the cathedral...? - Karim

Where are you now? How many in the posse? Would've joined up but am in the hamptons! - Noah Carter

We are taking a nap. Will probably go back out at 3. - Robert Scoble

Five minutes probably doesn't count. - Francine Hardaway

Francine: Doesn't count for what? - Brent Newhall

You should come over to NYC more often. We need to Valley-ify the Big Apple. - Michael Perlman

Andy: if there were a God I seriously doubt he'd hang out at church. - Robert Scoble

Robert Scoble

Apple store, NYC, 5th Ave. - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

June 22, 2008 from Flickr - Comment - Like - Share

Michael Perlman, Brandon Wood, Jason Ellis and 2 other people liked this

it's heaven, isn't it? - David Parmet

2 more comments

sounds like a place I should not enter, unless no credit card on me :) - Naor Mark

I love the elevator there. - Chuck Boyce from twhirl

Scoble is already camping out for the iPhone? That is dedication! - Rob Fuller from twhirl

Michael Perlman › Likes