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Sean McBride
The first rule of false flag ops: kill the patsies.
Well, I was waiting for you to say that. Didn't take long. - Roberto Bonini from iPhone
Roberto -- do you believe the official line on bin Laden? If so, why? - Sean McBride
See? Psychic. - Sean McBride
A little late on this phase aren't they? If this were true Bush would have killed Osama after a much shorter period of time to capture the glory and tie up the loose ends. - Todd Hoff
That is assuming that Bush was in the loop, which he almost certainly wasn't (positing the existence of such a loop). It is unlikely that any public official would be. But, yes: it is logical to assume that whoever was in the loop would have knocked off bin Laden long before now. - Sean McBride
His loopiness doesn't matter, the timing is still wrong. - Todd Hoff
The timing *is* wrong for that scenario. But something still feels completely off about this entire narrative. - Sean McBride
Why might people who had the power to kill bin Laden at any time during the last decade choose to do so now? And bury his body and richly fact-filled brain at sea immediately? Pardon me if I think about this a bit. If you are confident that you know what is going on, fine. :) - Sean McBride
How would the narrative be better? Capture him and put him on trial and it's a nightmare. Capture him without press would be a sacrifice no politician would make. Kill him and leave the body and you've created a shrine. Kill have and bury the body and it will be found and you've created more enemies and a shrine. Kill him and butcher him into a million pieces and you've done the same thing. Could you turn him? No. Could you use him to take down the network? Obviously not or they would have done that. So burying him at sea is unsatisfying and stinks of cover up, but it's also a good way to around a lot of this issues all the other "story lines" lead to. - Todd Hoff
Usually the rule is, kill the patsy as soon as possible. Every day that the patsy is walking around is a potential threat. - Sean McBride
Which is why that scenario is illogical. - Todd Hoff
Why would it be a "nightmare" to put OBL on trial? If all the facts are on your side, you are going to crush him in an international media spectacle that will be widely viewed by the entire world, and then execute him. AFTER picking his brain to extract every last detail that would help roll up his entire network. What better way to obtain closure on 9/11? - Sean McBride
Yes, it is illogical. - Sean McBride
Our weeny politicians were afraid to put lessor terrorists on trial in NY. Can you imagine would it be like with Osama? Facts are irrelevant to what will happen here, for both sides. - Todd Hoff
I don't think they were afraid. I think they were under heavy pressure from certain elements in the government to squelch a public and transparent trial of the alleged 9/11 "masterminds," much of whose testimony was extracted by extreme torture. There are major problems with the case; most of the details of it should have leaked out to the mainstream media a long time go. - Sean McBride
It is simply unbelievable that the US government wouldn't have had the highest possible interest in acquiring access to the full content of OBL's mind. That is where the bad smell about this narrative is strongest. Under any realistic scenario, Obama should have moved heaven and earth to capture OBL alive, with his brain intact. They had months to figure out how to accomplish that objective. - Sean McBride
What makes you still think Osama still had operational value? Maybe the upside isn't as high as you think and the downside is bottomless. - Todd Hoff
Todd: You said: "Could you use him to take down the network? Obviously not or they would have done that." What do you mean? Once OBL was in custody, they could have used a wide variety of methods over time (and I am not referring to blatant torture), to extract every fact in his head. Do they even really care about the ghostly "al-Qaeda," whose most visible representive in recent years has been a California kid named Adam Gadahn? - Sean McBride
Every contact that OBL has ever had in the last few decades would be of enormous intelligence interest, especially if OBL really was the ringleader of 9/11 and the head of al-Qaeda. Shouldn't that be obvious? Especially given the state of automated social network analysis these days? OBL could have provided leads galore that tracked to current operations. - Sean McBride
You can't really contend that Osama was a patsie and had valuable intel at the same time. In any case, what role does he still play in the organization? What role did he ever play? Don't you think al-Qaeda is another con anyway? Compare that against the risks of keeping him alive. If they would have failed again to capture him or kill him it would have been a nightmare. The trial would be a fan for the flame. It's still completely possible that they have him somewhere and they are interrogating him now. Who knows? But the patsie story doesn't wash. - Todd Hoff
how many blag flag ops have the average person seen or been a part of ? - Mekkar
In the game of international politics, patsies may well possess valuable information about operations, including information that they don't know is valuable, and information that they don't even know they have (and which only becomes meaningful information in combination with information from other sources). I find it amazing that you don't believe that OBL would have been much more valuable to the American government and intel community alive than dead. According to the official narrative, OBL should know more about 9/11 and al-Qaeda than any other human being on the planet. Instead of mining his brain, they dumped his body at sea as soon as possible. Todd: you and I will have to agree to disagree on how to interpet these events. - Sean McBride
Sean, I find it impossible to believe you don't see the vast downside of all the options and can simultaneously think Osama a patsie and that he has valuable intel. - Todd Hoff
the whole "event" & "situation" sounds a little too convenient & "fishy" to me & I am very familiar with international politics - Mekkar
Todd: I don't know if OBL was a patsy or not: in his first interview after 9/11 he denied any responsibility for 9/11, and the FBI never considered him to be a suspect for 9/11. I do know that the information in his head was extremely valuable, and would have answered many open questions about 9/11 (one way or the other with regard to his specific involvement or non-involvement) and provided many leads to current al-Qaeda operations. - Sean McBride
You know, why doesn't the press just ask Barack Obama: why did you choose to kill rather than capture OBL? Then listen to how much sense he makes. So far Obama hasn't made a shred of sense in trying to justify his escalation of the failed Afghanistan and Afpak Wars. Much of what is going on in current American foreign policy doesn't make any sense at all -- there is a hidden agenda in play that has nothing to do with stated policy. - Sean McBride
Todd: Afghanistan promised to hand over Osama bin Laden to the United States, if we simply provided proof of his guilt for 9/11. Bush refused to do so, and instead of easily rolling up al-Qaeda in 2002, we launched a series of failed wars that have cost the American taxpayer trillions of dollars, while vastly enriching the military-industrial complex and damaging the overall American economy. And guess what: as of May 2011, the government still hasn't provided the proof of OBL's guilt that was reasonably requested nearly a decade ago, and OBL is now safely buried at sea where he can not utter a word. But you feel comfortable with this narrative, yes? - Sean McBride
The contention was this being a false flag op, which doesn't make sense. The buried at sea outcome makes sense and IMHO is not evidence. The wars of course and Osama's guilt are different issues. If Osama was a patsy they would have taken him out immediately if not during the attack. - Todd Hoff
Todd -- there are many types and varieties of false flag ops. One type is to enable the ability of a patsy to commit a crime without the knowledge of the patsy. In that kind of situation there is no problem for the enablers: they are hidden behind the scene, beyond the knowledge of the patsy. John F. Kennedy Jr. was exploring this kind of scenario for George Magazine with regard to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by Yigal Amir, when he died in a plane crash off Martha's Vineyard. As to your arguments that OBL is more valuable to the US government dead than alive -- and taking into account the official narrative that OBL was the ringleader of 9/11 and the head of al-Qaeda -- I don't find them to be persuasive, for the reasons I've discussed above. OBL was an intelligence prize of the highest order. - Sean McBride
Todd -- you know that the Muslim terrorist cell that bombed the World Trade Center was under the control of the FBI, right? Google [emad salem]. In some ways, the World Trade Center bombing was a trial run for 9/11 -- would you agree? - Sean McBride
Todd -- we've barely scratched the surface of the issues under discussion here, and I would love to puruse this. But take your time. By the way, often I just place a marker on the board for the purpose of instigating speculation, discussion, debate etc. The entry at the head of this thread is a typical example -- I was thinking of many topics, not just OBL. I don't have fixed opinions about OBL -- I am still sifting through a great deal of contradictory information about that subject. - Sean McBride
Observation: no one seems to want to disagree with the assertion that the Muslim terrorist cell which bombed the World Trade Center was under the control of the US government. So what conclusions should one draw from facts like this? - Sean McBride