The Grades of Meat: Prime: What you want. Typically found only at fine butcher shops, its interlacing of intramuscular fat--like a cobweb--assures tenderness, juiciness, and flavor. · Choice: Pretty good. More affordable and accessible than prime, moderate marbling still yields juicy, flavorful cuts. · Select: You're on a plane. - Thomas Hawk via Bookmarklet
Good thing those 4 New York steaks our 2 labradors stole before yesterdays BBQ were from Costco. - Mrsth
I just make a quick edit to the post at the end. I want to make sure people understand the lesson here so it isn't repeated. I think that point may have been lost originally. - David Risley
Nice edit. An enviroment, or culture, of respect is exactly what is needed. But that will not come automatically. It will take time. - Roberto Bonini
David: OK, I guess that you're allowed to use a word that connotes a group of people to slam something but then I'm not allowed to point out how vile that use of that word is to me and others and how, historically, language EXACTLY LIKE that led German society down a nasty path. I was just in Berlin, why don't you come and walk down the path with me and see the historical use of language and how corrosive it can be? Can't we aim for something a little higher here? And a block is a perfect instrument to use. - Robert Scoble
I don't allow my son to use that kind of language in my home. Why should I allow it here? A block is akin to kicking people out of my house who use language I object to. If you had noticed I removed the block after you apologized. Still haven't reinstituted it, but wow. Way to make a mistake, get it pointed out to you, then attack the messenger. - Robert Scoble
I think the issue here is two-fold. One, we should be more careful in atributing blame when we see things like that, taking care to find out the facts FIRST. Two, before saying/writing things like that, we should consider others. Now I'm NOT suggesting anything - people have the right to say whatever they want (that includes Scoble), but there has to be a reasonable limit to how far things go. PC in general goes a wee bit too far IMHO. And I'm not taking any sides here. Just saying - Roberto Bonini
Roberto: sorry, but my mom is German. Her mom stood up to the Nazis and if more had, that society wouldn't have gone downhill. I imagine there are more than a few who are "gay" here who are offended when people use that word to connote negative things, as David did here. That's not language I'll EVER put up with in spaces I interact with. - Robert Scoble
Um, Robert? Get a sense of proportion here. The man apologized and admitted he was wrong. - Diane Ensey
Diane: yes, he did, but then after he did that he proceeded to blog about it and made it a big deal again. I was willing to let it drop. He wasn't. He made a mistake, acknowledged that, then attacked me for being PC. Sorry, but I won't be one to put up with that language. Too many people died for that kind of slippery slope crap. - Robert Scoble
Robert, he apologized. Get over it. And, come on, if more people had stood up to the Nazis, more people would have died. That wasn't a regime that was going to back down from pressure from common folk. You know that. Don't liken David to a Nazi because he made one misstep. - Gregory Pittman via twhirl
nice Godwin's Law reference in the comments.... second those remarks - Jeff Quinton
Scoble: We all see things on FriendFeed which we don't like. Especially with this election season. If we deal with it like adults, it works out. I have admitted it was stupid for me to use that word. I won't be using it again in that way. HOWEVER, trying to compare my tweet to the Nazis is ridiculous. That is dangerous political correctness taken way too far. Yes, I was wrong, but I can't sit here and let Nazi comparisons to me go without response. In this case, the messenger went too far. - David Risley
I find the use of the word "gay" like that to be offensive, however, I think in the grand scheme of things it's a tiny little offense. One which I'm sure I'm guilty of myself using other words. One difference that Scoble may possibly be missing is that while folks who use the word "gay" in a slangy derogatory sense may not be fans of homosexuals, they don't hold them with the same evil contempt that the Nazis held Jews in. - Tad - just Tad
I'm not as worked up but I have to say this response doesn't really do you any favors. You seem to be saying that it's okay to say offensive things to the right audience. We're with the guys, so it's fine to call women skanks? Ghey, even by the citation you provide, has its roots in the homosexual pejorative. So if you're on homophobesRus, and not FF, then you can say ghey and gay? I think the motto is not to use hurtful and/or offensive language regardless of the audience. - AJ Kohn
Everyone screws up. Trends are what matter and David has shown consistent value as a FF member. That said, I also appreciate Robert's ethical stance. It's all good. - Sprague D
On balance, I'd say that more historical damage has been done by people trying to control speech than by people speaking offensively. - Avdi Grimm
The folks who really hate gays (Tim Lahaye's bunch and others) would never use the word "gay" in such a slangy sense. So, using "gay" like that is NOT the same or even remotely similar to the way the Germans felt about the Jews. There's no cult of ideology behind it. It's just a simple, lazy word. The real folks to be afraid of are the religious fundamentalists who have come out and said that homosexuality is a bigger threat to the country than terrorism. - Tad - just Tad
Sprague D: I, too, appreciate Scoble's ethical stance. I really do. Don't anybody take my blog post as me saying that Robert was wrong for hitting me for the use of the word. Its just the way he did it. - David Risley
Avdi - I disagree. I think Scoble is right that words are incredibly powerful. I just think he's worked up in the wrong direction. Offensive speech used by people powerful enough to inject it into "normal" society is incredibly dangerous. That's what the Nazis did with their hatred of Jews. Folks on the internet saying something is "gay" aren't trying to inject any hatred into society. - Tad - just Tad
@Tad: I agree and disagree. Words are incredibly powerful. But while folks on the Internet saying something is 'gay' may not be trying to inject hatred into society, they are essentially passive carriers. They perpetuate a word, knowing or unknowing, that can be hurtful. I think it's often just not truly thinking about what that word means. I see the same thing happen when someone says something is 'retarded'. - AJ Kohn
@Robert - I respect the fact that you were offended by the use of the word, but the comparison to Nazi's is a bit overboard. Remember, the Nazi's had an agenda and skillfully used language to gain control. I doubt that David had any agenda behind his use of the word and at worst can be accused of being insensitive and ignorant of the impact of such words. - Jim McCusker
@Robert - At the same time, I can understand your heightened sensitivity after returning from Germany and the impact on your family. Just trying to have some balance here. - Jim McCusker
I'm no linguist, but I don't think the slang originated from the older meaning (lighthearted and carefree). That's clearly not the intended message when people say something is gay. David's post is good, except that I still don't think he realizes the problem with the slang. On the other hand, freedom of speech is one of our most treasured values and words only hurt if we let them. - Logical Extremes
Jim: you really do need to go to Berlin and study how the Holocaust happened. It wasn't Nazis at first. It started with standard old hateful ideas and speech. I guess I'm not good at communicating this because I was just there. I wasn't talking about the Nazis. They came AFTER the speech was allowed to exist. Another point of view? There's enough slurs and hate speech on the Internet. Want some of that stuff? Go to Digg or YouTube or someplace else. I don't want to see that stuff here. - Robert Scoble
Tad - I definitely agree that treating ignorance with the same level of instant angry vehemence as one treats deliberate offensiveness is what gets people written off as mindless PC-bots. The key to constructive communication, on the internet as well as in real life, is charity: assuming good will until proven otherwise. - Avdi Grimm
The 1938 Media video did make me wonder though if Scoble has blocked Loren for dissing people of mass. Actually, when the video started, Loren reminded me a bit of Freddie Mercury and I thought he was going down a different path... - Logical Extremes
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics ... Even if you win, you're still a retard." - martinmedia
Logical: speech against groups hurts and, if accepted by the community, can move down the slippery slope. I'm not going to apologize for harshly standing out against this use of speech. I'd rather be on the right side of this line than the wrong one. In Berlin you can see what happens when too many are on the wrong side. - Robert Scoble
As much as David has the right to use whatever words he wants, Robert has an equal right to not want to see them. - Akiva Moskovitz
For those of us who can't afford a trip to Berlin right now, could you write something up that gives more insight into what you saw and learned while you were there? - Bruce Lewis via fftogo
Totally agreed with Akiva. I think we're all just throwing in our $0.02 which is ok too. - Tad - just Tad
Bruce: what I viewed was the Topography of Terror exhibit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T... -- it detailed the history of the Holocaust. How events progressed from mere hate speech (people calling Jews names, writing slogans on store windows and such) to minor irritant laws to more and more harsh laws which then led to the horrible acts we all should know about. - Robert Scoble
What I learned is that the best time to stop this kind of crap is early, in the speech phase, when it's easy to stop (let's face it, none of us died in this thread). - Robert Scoble
Robert - It's not my intention to get into a history lesson (and yes, I'd love to visit Berlin someday when I have the means). My point is based on the intent of the speaker. You are correct that hate speech was leveraged in Germany, but the intent was already there. 'Gay' didn't originate as a derogatory word and still has multiple meanings. Are you offended when a Brit smokes a 'fag'? Should they stop using that term because American's also use it in the same derogatory manor as 'gay'? - Jim McCusker
Robert - Just saw your comments to Bruce and totally agree. But David's use of the word wasn't intended or directed as hate speech. I don't think anyone reading his slang thought he was referring to homosexuals. This is the twist of logic that I'm not following in your argument. - Jim McCusker
This is a whole lotta nonsense. Hitler's rise to power wasn't the result of poor word choice. And in the contemporary context, the authoritarians are the people who diligently try to police what other people say. - Rob Sterling
Robert, I cringe when I hear people say that things or other people are gay or retarded (or other similar "innocent" epithets). But the response needs to be thoughtful and rational. If the response fails because it is too extreme or because of real biases, and the offending behavior persists, well then it is the reputation of the speaker that is at stake. - Logical Extremes
@Robert: Thanks so much for protecting me from hearing language that someone, somewhere might find mildly offensive. What I find offensive is equating word choice with rounding up over 6 million people and butchering them. This sort of superficial political correctness allows people to attack the messenger, rather than read the message, and allows actual substantive wrongs to be glossed over by tempest in a teapot activism. - Jason Carreira
I have to agree with Jim McCusker's comments. - Roberto Bonini
If you take a look on wikipedia, you'll find a huge list devoted to ethnic slurs and derogatory terms. If you are anything, there's probably an insult for it. If people want to use these words, it's their right. So I do disagree with those wanting to limit free speech. But people also have a right not to listen and for that, we have the hide button :) - Cains
@Scoble "I'd rather be on the right side of this line than the wrong one." Apparently, you lack the understanding that when you are on the far extreme of EITHER side, they become mirror images of each other. READ: Fascism and Communism. I also GREATLY resent the fact that you imply the only way to learn about the Holocaust is to go to Berlin. Just because you had to go to Berlin in order to understand the political and socioeconomic beginnings of the Holocaust does not mean I have to. - Mattie Kenny
Last, I'd like to add that your comments make you sound just as ignorant as David did. David's use of the word "gay" in no way is on the same level of the derogatory terms the people of EUROPE used against Jews and Slavs. Let's not forget how many Poles also died during the Holocaust. Everyone seems to like to forget the Holocaust wasn't just about eradicating Jews. But now I'm off on a tangent. - Mattie Kenny
O.K. Kids. Deep breathes. That's what I say to our baby Hawks when drama begins spoiling the otherwise jovial atmosphere. - Mrsth
context and intent, people! that's what matters - Cee Bee
And why can't Windows Media Center play VOB files, that's lame. video is so frustrating. - Mrsth
VOD or VOB? If it's a .VOB (MPEG-2 DVD video) you can often change the extension to .MPG or .MPEG and get it to play. Transcoding is no fun. Yes video is harder than it needs to be :-) - Karim
definitely .VOB. I tried changing the extension to .mpg but they wouldn't play when I double clicked on them. My Videos folder is now totally unaccesible with my Media Center PC because I installed some lame software called Transcode 360 in order to try and convert my files. The software doesn't work and now it's wrecked my Media Center set up and it won't uninstall. grrrr. Not Divx VOD files. My wife paid someone to convert all our old tapes and they came back as .VOB files. - Thomas Hawk
You have a Mac don't you? Have you tried iSquint (http://www.isquint.org) a free converter. It'll handle VOB files and convert to most other formats. You get nag screens to buy the full version (called VisualHub) but iSquint is all I need for occasional video conversion. - Rob Rait
@TH: T360 is for streaming non-native files to an Xbox... Other than installing ffdshow, it shouldn't have done anything that would directly impact Mpeg2 decoding. Chances are, you've got a couple codecs conflicting. Are you familiar with directshow filters? - Roger Benningfield
On a Mac I also use DVDxDV which opens DVDs and VOB files and you can export it with any QT setting. Works really well. I export as 8-but uncompressed and then encode as WMV, FLV, etc. - Larry Kless via twhirl
VLC definitely FTW. It can play anything, and transcode anything that it can play. - Eric
Ok, got that dreaded Transcode 360 off my computer. Pain in the ass. And now my videos are working again. Found a converter called "Any Video Converter" that seems to be doing an ok job converting my .vob files to .wmv files. Going to be a time consuming process though. yuck. - Mrsth
My sensors indicate that Thomas Hawk has again been using the Home computer without logging off MrsTH. You two need to get User Accounts. - Yuvi
On Windows, the Quicktime "MPEG-2 playback component" ($20 -- see http://www.apple.com/quicktime...) also does transcoding, but be sure to read the fine print, it won't demux the audio. Not sure if you also need Quicktime Pro ($30 -- see http://store.apple.com/us/prod...) but that also allows you to simply select a portion of a video and export to another format. - Karim
Videora (free!) can be useful to convert .vob files to more readily playable codecs. [Another use: Rip DVDs you own to .vob using DVD Decrypter (free!), then paste them together with Vobmerge (free!), then transcode them to your choice of codec using Videora.] - Robert Linthicum
Left a Twitter response, then duh, I remembered there is likely a conversation from the Tweet over on FF :) Try TMPG Xpress. Shareware so you can test it first. I've had good fortune with it converting varied file formats, including the ever difficult AVCHD. It has a batch encoding option, which should help if you have a ton of them. You can also set cut points and output to single or multiple files. All handy features. - Jeremy Hall
“I'm trying to convince myself that having a sling around my shoulder and carrying Matthew around the house so my hands are free is "manly". It's not working.”
To compensate, carry him around by cradling his head in your left hand, with his body lying on your arm, and gently pull him into your side to keep him stable. You know, like a football. - Denton Gentry
@Denton, I do that often, with either one. But my wife got a sling big enough to fit me this evening and it's not that bad. Lets me use the laptop as well. :-) - Louis Gray
I second AJ. It's manly. As your wife. - Chris Baskind
manly to women yes. to other men... not so much - Jason Kaneshiro
Baby Bjorns are heavenly - maybe I've just become numb to the manly part - Jesse Stay
I used a Baby Bjorn often. It was a much easier way to carry the munchkin. - Denton Gentry
Our Baby Bjorn is good, but Matthew is less fussy in the sling, so far. - Louis Gray
The sling has always felt weird for me (like I'm crushing the kid, when I know I'm not)... and the regular carriers, well, the kid was always sticking out in front of me too far, keeping me from reaching things (or typing). Laid kid out on a blanket between me and the keyboard many nights, tho, and got a lot work done. He slept right through it. Doesn't work for long, tho, as they get too big too quickly... - abacab
As long as it's not a pretty, sparkly, flowery, pink sling, I think you're okay. - Lisa L. Seifert
Lisa, it is a dark brown. My wife's looking out for me. - Louis Gray
It shows you are very manly as you are so secure in your masculinity you're doing something that is traditionally thought of as the woman's role. You're good! - Abby Martin
Phew. That was a close one. You know brown and pink are the trendy thing right now. Is it reversible? ;-) - Lisa L. Seifert
Hey, guys can wear pink - what are you saying? ;-) - Jesse Stay via twhirl
<rant>you could always put some really big sub woofers in your car and get a loud Harley and some tattoos and go to the shooting range</rant> Seriously, manly? I don't let *anyone* define that for me. - AJ Kohn
Those slings kick @ss - so much better than a Baby Bjorn. For one thing you don't take near as many crotch shots with a sling. For another you can look down and go "oooooooh, a baby!" whereas w/ The Baby Bjorn all you get is baby skull all up in your grill. Not that that's not cute, but the little Geddes-esque pea in a pod visual has to be immensely satisfying. - J-P Voillequé
Its only manly if you are fighting off lions and tigers while carrying the baby. Its a man rule! ;) - Earl E Morningwood
Turn in your man card. :p Just kidding ofcourse. Enjoy your kidlets as much as you can while they're that little. I miss it. - Mattb4rd
having one of each gender, you are free to be beyond gender - Gregory Lent
All depends on how you wear the sling. Baby in front = woman. Baby in back = man. Any other position results in confusion between baby and purse ;-) - Slippy Lane
it's totally manly! Fatherhood brother! - Thomas Hawk
Come on, everyone loves seeing guys carrying kids around! It's very manly. - Evangeline
It's more mommy porn. Best you keep it coming. - Mrsth
Internet-generation has learned the ways of one-handed surfing so that they can... er.. take care of babies with the free hand ;) - Joni Moilanen
"...Matthew is less fussy..." Now there's something that doesn't seem so manly. Does it really matter, though? Seriously, active fatherhood is a manly thing. - MiniMage via NoiseRiver
Sounds threatening mrsth. Praytell why not? Or should you blog about how you are being repressed? - Leather Donut
FYI. I'm not blogger. No threat. Simple statement that Miss Hartwell might not be qualified to speak on moral character. - Mrsth
mrsth, if you are going to accuse someone, come right out and say it. Stop being coy and dancing around it. If you are questioning Lane's moral character, give me a good solid example. For instance, FACT: Andrew Peterson has had a history of run-ins when he is out taking pictures. FACT: Andrew Peterson on previous occasions taken pictures where photography is forbidden. See how easy that was? Your turn. - Leather Donut
While it's typically not my style to publish chat logs, pics or detail anothers moral crimes, my restraint from addressing Miss Hartwell's 2 year personal & hypocritical rants is at capacity so when my life of mothering these 4 little hawks permits... tune in. - Mrsth
Alright. I look forward to your followup. - Leather Donut
Well? Nothing? It's been more than 5 days. - Leather Donut
Mrsth, if you are married to Andrew Peterson, who is at home disappointing your parents? - Leather Donut
you need to pretend, like your life depended on it, that you DID plan whatever good thing that happens. Just my 2 cents. My 14th is coming up. - Josh Haley
I don't believe the previous incidents negate Thomas' poor treatment by SFMOMA, but interesting to get another take - Duncan Riley via Bookmarklet
largely accurately written with the exception of the altercation between Alex the security guard and I. No words were exchanged before he came out of the building with his middle finger blazing. His hand is even still on the door as he exited the building to come confront me. http://www.flickr.com/photos/t... - Thomas Hawk
Excellent Article. And I refuse to be a spitful little dweeb and use Thomas' real name. Thomas Hawk rocks...he's a hero in my book. I hate douchebags with authority. - Sean McGee
who is "destiny" and why I can't I find out more about the author of this article that is linkedin here ? Those who are behind a pseudonym and without a face are always suspicious in my eyes. AND those who dont take the time to do research and blindly just post a link without doing a little bit of 'due diligence' certainly lose creditablity in my eyes. Sorry, let the fact be known. Its not just about traffic and eyeballs. The community expects much more , in these type of character convos !! - Peter Dawson
You know, Blint sort of looks like John Malkovich - Mattb4rd
<cont> I see the problem and its us- failing to keep equilibrium amongst ourselves - Peter Dawson
@Peter....you know...I always was suspicious of that Mark Twain guy....he used a pseudonym....big red flag....what's he trying to hide anyways? - Sean McGee
The longer this story keeps rolling on without SF MOMA being involved in the conversation the worse it gets for them. Guess they should read my brother's book. You don't think that this sort of thing can have an impact? Ask Kryptonite how much of an impact a viral internet story can have on a business. - AlexScoble(Robert'sBro)
Yeah, Peter... people with psuedonyms like "Thomas Hawk"... @Alex... I guess the people of San Francisco will just have to get their fix of large collections of modern art elsewhere. It's such a competitive field. - Jason Carreira
@Sean, yeah, I hate people with Authority like Jill Greenberg. Good thing Thomas is here to protect us from artists whom he disagrees with or they might use their authority to force us to look at artwork. - Jason Carreira
Tom: It's ok to take a picture of a building... or a lake, or even a sculpture in a museum... of course!! But guess what? It is poor form to take someone's picture without their consent... and then to bully them when they tell you to stop... wow. I'm not impressed. Don't make it sound like you're some innocent photographer who gets blindsided... you antagonize human beings with your lens the same way security does with their badges and I think it's a shame so many smart people support you for it. - Matt Shaulis
I have mixed opinons on this. I want him to be able to take photographs of almost whatever he chooses, but it sounds like he's always looking for a fight. Its almost like this is his mission rather than the photography or maybe his photography is about making people uncomfortable with his photography. Either way, it feels too beligerent, but I used to be that beligerent too, so who am I to judge. - Brad Nickel
I shoot every single day of my life. hundreds of photos every single day. Inevitably I end up in conflicts from time to time. For every conflict I've blogged about there are dozens of others that were handled amicably. The vast majority are. I have no interest in creating conflict, I find it stressful and upsetting actually. Every so often though one of the conflicts becomes especially egregious and those I've tended to blog. - Thomas Hawk
If you want to read what a typical non-blogged conflict looks like you can read this article that Evan Ratcliff wrote on my photography for Wired Magazine. http://www.atavistic.org/evan/... Evan witnessed one first hand while following me around shooting one day. Much less drama, nothing blogged, but typical of what I routinely run into while out and about shooting. - Thomas Hawk
@Brad That's my problem with "Thomas"... I want everyone to be able to take photographs too, but picking fights and being belligerent like this does more to harm the cause of photography than to help it. - Jason Carreira
@Thomas - Fair enough and thanks for replying. I have to say, that being out here on the periphery just kind of taking in pieces of the story in FriendFeed and blog snippet world, you come across as a bit angry in general. I think the behavior towards you has been ridiculous as well, but my impression definitely was a bit different than the explaination you just gave. Thanks for providing it, it helps. I suspect that maybe you have so much hassle, that you might give the impression you are ready for a fight - Brad Nickel
@Brad, I've been on Flickr for a long time and seen TH do this several times over different issues. I also know a lot of photographers who shoot street photography and somehow they aren't getting thrown out of places, getting people fired, etc. That's where I'm coming from, because that's specific to "Thomas", even though he likes to play it up as a war against photography. - Jason Carreira
I don't pick fights Jason, I hold my ground when I'm in the right. And in the most extreme cases I blog it. I'm never the one confronting them. It always starts with them telling me I can't photograph something that I feel that I can. How it escalates from there is largely up to them. As said before the vast majority never escalate and are worked out without any scene or drama whatsoever. - Thomas Hawk
Amazing how it just happens with you. Other street photographers aren't getting escorted out by security guards. - Jason Carreira
@Jason, Sure seemed that way to me too, but hopefully this will be a lesson for everyone involved to step back when things heat up, unless they like what came out of it. - Brad Nickel
so a man with a history of self importance and employee harassment who routinely violates museum rules now wants us to all rally around him and become part of his new lynch mob? To hell with that. I said it before - we have NO idea what actually happened and no reason to believe Thomas was not a beligerant jerk when approached. - Soulhuntre via twhirl
However when I'm physically assaulted, flipped the bird, called a public pervert in a crowded atrium and without being given a chance to show my innocence when I have proof, etc. I don't just stand there and take it. They drew first blood. I blog those most egregious cases. You want to see an example of a positive interaction? Check out this link here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/t... - Thomas Hawk
Thomas - itsimply doesn't matter even a little tiny bit. If someone asks you (or even TELLS you) to not take their picture you need to respect that. - Matt Shaulis
Anyone who deal in security deals with this stuff. It used to be "I'll write a letter to the newspaper" then became "I'll sue you!" now it's "I'll blog about you" which is the same thing as yelling "I'll tell Scoble" ( kidding ).. Everyone who is ever tossed out of someplace starts yelling about being assaulted. The guy has a history of picking fights and being belligerent... why should we assume he wasn't doing that here? - Soulhuntre
Jason: I'd suggest you read up on WinExtra for Steven's run down on how Thomas was "late to the party" here - folks getting tossed out for all sorts of innocent documentations of life that end up on the internet is pretty commonplace. I don't get why some people are so "offended" by this incident. Not every issue needs a devil's advocate. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Last comment - it takes more than a blog and a digital camera to make someone a "hero", ya know? This guy wasn't risking his life for free speech or fighting "the man". - Soulhuntre
Matt, the argument here is law vs. common courtesy. The law says you have no reasonable expectation of privacy on the street. Common courtesy dictates that if someone asks you to stop doing something that makes them uncomfortable, you do so. - Cyndy
@Thomas the description I read from a non-involved employee was that you were asked many times (as many as 10 times) to stop taking pictures. The employees do not have an option to leave to escape your camera lens, so what were they supposed to do? Of course Blint wasn't going to look at your pictures. At the point they'd asked you to stop more than once and you'd continued, you were being kicked out for your behavior, not your pictures. - Jason Carreira
@Thomas - If the path so far to reaching 1M photos is any indication of what future conflict will escalate to then retaining counsel is probably in order... and a healthy insurance policy on your photo gear. Most of the gonzo videos of photographers in police states do not end well for the gear. Physical assault of a person over a photo seems to be relegated to paparazzi -- but that's something to keep in mind if a variety of less civil people creep into your works even if you are 100% "in the right". - Jay Cuthrell
@Mark, I'd suggest you do some research on "Thomas"'s past before you jump to his defense. Why do the other photographers I know who do a LOT of street photography not get kicked out of places repeatedly? Oh, yeah, it's because they're courteous and they aren't looking to cause an incident. - Jason Carreira
Cyncy.... you are incorrect. The law in over 1/2 the states in the US explicity PROTECTS my right to expectation of privacy and publicity... even (and especially) in public. Posting my picture on the web without my permission violates my rights of publicity. SO it's both law and courtesy. (and in some cases personal safety... one day someone is going to beat his ass.) - Matt Shaulis
Soulhuntre, I don't claim to be a hero. I'm just doing my thing -- doing what I do. 99% of the time this is without altercation, but it happens. And Mark's right it happens *all the time* and not just to me. And for every other incident that's blogged about by Carlos Miller or Jeremy Brooks or Andy Carvin or hundreds of others that have written about it much of it goes unreported or photographers simply blindly obey an authority figure and walk the other way. - Thomas Hawk
I could fill this thread with links to at least 100 other examples of it happening to other people not named Thomas Hawk. - Thomas Hawk
Individual incidents != pattern of behavior - Jason Carreira
How many is this for you now "Thomas"? 4? 5? Do we count Jill Greenberg? Do we count your rants about censorship on Flickr? - Jason Carreira
Thomas Hawk: So just because you are not alone in your harassment of others makes it ok? 99% of the time bullies in school get the nerds lunch money, does that make it ok? - Matt Shaulis
@Thomas, I know you think you're doing a good thing... If I say "Thanks for protecting the rights of photographers. You've done your job, leave it to someone else now", will you stop harassing people on our behalf? kthxbai - Jason Carreira
Jason I'm allowed to blog about anything I want. Jill Greenberg and censorship on Flickr have nothing to do with my photography nor was I the only person expressing strong opinions in either case. Hell, the BBC covered the Flickr censorship story as did dozens of other publications. Same with Greenberg. Are you suggesting that because I can be opinionated that I shouldn't be allowed to blog about problems I run into with abusive security guards? - Thomas Hawk
So Thomas, are you contending that he did not talk to you, nor did you snap his photo until after he came out of the rear of the building got in an argument and he flipped you off? You didn't even point the camera in his general direction until he came flying out the building middle finger a'blazin? - Adam Weiss
Matt, actually the law does not. In every state in the U.S. the rule is simple, if you are in public then there is no expectation of privacy. When Photographer Philip-Lorca diCorcia used a *hidden* camera to take a photo of Hasidic Erno Nussenzweig it went all the way to the NY Supreme Court but the judgment was clear. Anyone can be photographed in public. http://www.nyc24.org/2006/issu... - Thomas Hawk
Geeze, this is still going? Why? The Museum made a comment, they said they aren't saying anymore. Thomas posted what he felt and everyone else got in their 0.02 as well. Hopefully, people learned something from both parties involved on how not to handle a situation...how not to handle a situation with a patron in public and not to write about your experience when you're still angry. It's over now. - Candace Holly
and for what it's worth 99% of the time someone asks me not to photograph them I don't. And I've deleted dozens of photos after the fact that people have asked me to on Flickr simply because they asked -- I have no problem with that. I have no problem respecting people's desire not to be photographed. But once they are a prick, like I said, they drew first blood. - Thomas Hawk
And also for what it's worth in all this I do regret using Simon Blint's name in my post. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't have done that. I was angry and mad and I could have blogged about it more responsibly. - Thomas Hawk
Adam that is *exactly* what I'm saying. I was shooting the exterior of the building and before any words were exchanged he came out of the building flipping me off *immediately*. Look at his hand, he's coming out the door. How could we have a conversation when he was inside and I was outside. We couldn't and we didn't. He saw me shooting the building, he came out flipping me off and the conflict emerged from there. - Thomas Hawk
@TH "because I can be opinionated that I shouldn't be allowed to blog " - yes thats what the wolves r saying.. which part is thick in the skull ..right or left ? The more you interact, the less you will get out of it. IMO, drop the convo, move on. There are too many opinion's that will be rendered. You have won a battle on this round, there is very little that you can still contribute within this incident. The war between right vs wrong still looms . conserve your energy for the next round, wherever !! - Peter Dawson
The photostream shows another photo from a few minutes earlier with him flipping your camera off from inside the building. Are you honestly contending that he was flipping you off, rather than responding to having a camera be pointed at him? - Adam Weiss
Thomas: that is a New York case... not a US Supreme Court case... so in NY the rule is clear... i said over 1/2 the states... not ALL of the states. Besides the fact is that ruling is unethical and just waiting to be overturned by the US Supreme Court, which will make it officially illegal in all 50 states... he lost his appeal only because he did not file his initial complaint in a timely enough fashion... i would be very careful if you are planning on using it in your legal defense when you are sued. ;) - Matt Shaulis
It's pretty simple folks. If you don't like what Thomas has to say, then don't read it. No one is forcing anyone to read his blog, nor is anyone forcing you to follow him on any social network. I think many people just like conflict. - Jeff P. Henderson
Jeff... i think people just like to stand on the side of justice when they feel a fellow citizen has been violated... people are all over the web calling Tom a hero and a freedom fighter... for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction... right? - Matt Shaulis
@jeff: Some people may like conflict. Others may just get really pissed off when they see their friends lose their jobs due to his actions. - Adam Weiss
Adam, that is what I'm saying. Look at the photo from earlier. http://www.flickr.com/photos/t... What am I shooting there. I'm shooting a pair of revolving doors that I've arranged in symmetry -- again, from the outside of the building. What is he doing? He's getting in my photo and flipping me off. He didn't need to be standing right there. He didn't show up in my photo until after I'd started shooting it. I can show you versions of that shot without him in it. - Thomas Hawk
and then after flipping me off from inside the building, he comes out and flips me off as he's coming out of the building to tell me I can't take photos of the building. He may not have liked me taking photos of the building. He may have thought I was taking photos of him in the building, whatever. I'm allowed to take photos of the exterior of a building. It was his confrontational attitude as evidenced by the finger that brought on the blog post in that case. - Thomas Hawk
I used to work in that building. They station guards there in the afternoon when the exit doors get heavy traffic. - Adam Weiss
Matt, I'm not a lawyer but I stand by my contention that you can shoot anyone you like in public and I'll happily take my chances in court with anyone who wishes to contest it. Here is an opinion from an actual lawyer though. http://www.krages.com/ThePhoto... - Thomas Hawk
You were traumatized by a security guard as a kid or something... clearly... ;) just kiddin'... hehehe. - Matt Shaulis
And no, you're not allowed to take photos from there. That park is private property. I find it incredible to this day that you still pretend to be ignorant to that fact. Yes, it's poorly marked. But so are all the other psuedo-public parks attached to office buildings in the financial district. I knew about them when I used to take pictures of buildings, and this was even in the pre-9/11 era when getting hassled was rare. - Adam Weiss
Some people just go looking for conflict. They love complaining to supervisors, they live for their ability to write letters to editors and "fight the good fight". Outrage and playing the victim gives them the moral authority to act any way they wish. Now, I don't know TH from Adam and he might be mister temperance. but that's the point, I don't know and he could easily be a jerk. Frankly "social networking" needs to be more than an instant outrage machine if it is ever going to really effect change. - Soulhuntre
Adam, I'm not sure what to say to you. I could upload a photo of the doors without Alex in it but I still don't think that this would change your opinion. But for argument's sake, let's just say he was stationed there. I'm just saying if it were me and some guy outside was shooting the exterior of the building and I didn't want to be in the shot, I'd turn around and have my back to him, not flip him off for the camera and then come outside and hassle him. - Thomas Hawk
@soulhuntre: I look at it this way: One day a highly sophisticated alien race will visit and suck down and review the whole Internet in about ten minutes. During the first five, they'll decide we're actually alright. During the second five, they'll have scrolled down to the comments, found the blogs and read the mailing lists. During the third five... well there wouldn't be a third five, for us anyway... - Adam Weiss
Opinons from lawyers, cool... here is another: http://www.photosecrets.com/ti... it is my understanding that taking the photo is not a problem, publishing it is. (even though, forget the law, it's morally wrong to shoot first and ask questions later... am i right?) - Matt Shaulis
Adam, it doesn't matter that it's private property. It's *public space* This issue was more recently addressed by Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton when bloggers like Andy Carvin were being kicked out of DC's Union Station, also private property, but *public space*. When a property owner designates an area as *public space* they lose their ability to restrict general public activity there. This has been upheld in court as well. Watch this video. http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/M... - Thomas Hawk
Well Thomas, you're a photographer! Of course you're not going to mind so much. Don't you think having that same expectation of others is unreasonable? I wish I was able to construct an abstract analogy that would help you to understand what it would be like to have someone show up at your workplace and engage in an activity that makes you feel uncomfortable. - Adam Weiss
It is become more and more likely, I think, that TH is a far from innocent participant in this altercation. - Soulhuntre via twhirl
Matt, you are certainly entitled to your opinion that "it's morally wrong to shoot first and ask questions later." But as you note, it's not illegal and this "moral" certainly contradicts many of the finest photographers who have ever lived. Henri Cartier-Bresson, considered by many as the finest photographer who ever lived (and who's photos hang in the SF MOMA) shot thousands of people without ever asking their permission. A whole canon of street photography is based on this. - Thomas Hawk
Thomas... never heard of him. Considered by me to be a prick, it sounds like. - Matt Shaulis
And I'm not even going to get into Bruce Gilden, who shoots for Magnum, generally regarded as the most highly regarded photography agency in the world (also founded by Cartier-Bresson). http://thomashawk.com/2008/05/... Your morals may say that you ought not shoot someone without permission, but mine do not, nor does the established photographic community recognize your "morality." - Thomas Hawk
Matt, you are mistaken. While you are not allowed to publish someone's likeness *commercially* (for instance I can't take a photo of you and then publish it next to an ad that says Matt endorses Crest toothpase or sell it for stock photography without a model release), both the arts and journalism have been given editorial exemption, hence Philip-Lorca diCorcia's ability to sell a print of his photo for thousands of dollars without his subjects permission or desire. - Thomas Hawk
that's it guys. I'm out. I told myself that I wasn't even going to get into any of this if it had to do with Simon Blint anymore. I turned down an interview request for ABC TV, etc. over it. I'm done with it. I probably shouldn't have even chimed in here tonight. But I'm now going to put down the internet and go spend time with my wife. This is all from me on the Simon Blint case. As far as I'm concerned it's done. On to other things. - Thomas Hawk
I am still not sure if I like this or not but it does raise some points that have gotten quite a few to speak their opinion on it. I have been on both sides of the lens and just move my face out of the frame if I don't wish to be photographed. Yes, I was a doorman for a while at Tipitina's and the now defunct Muddy Waters. I am glad that Thomas' maturity won out over his ego and am pleased that he wishes that he didn't call someone out by name when he himself operates under a pseudonym. - Mathew A. Koeneker
Yes, I know that is for work reasons. I forgot the length of comment restrictions. - Mathew A. Koeneker
wow... i wonder how the established photographic community would feel about how you've represented them here this evening. - Matt Shaulis
I just love the idea of someone screaming "Don't move or I'll blog you". It ranks up there with all the "My brothers a lawyer" cops get all the time :) And no, I'm not saying this incident happened exactly like that... but it sure seems to be a possibility. - Soulhuntre
@Thomas, thanks for chiming in! I think your input and links were valuable to those who are interested in the topic. It's appalling how miss informed the general public is with respcet to the freedoms and laws regarding public photography. I think we have seen discussed here tonight at least the top 5 or so misconceptions most people have about public photography. (Hey I smell a topic for a future blog post.) - Jeff P. Henderson
Thank you Thomas for sharing your opinion tonight. - Michael
@Jason If you are shooting on the street, it is just a matter of time before somebody sees you and thinks that they can tell you to stop. People confuse "I don't want you to do that" with "You can't do that". In the USA, in public, you can pretty much take a picture of whatever you can see. That's the way it is. I repsect Thomas for being willing to subject himself to ridicule by people that don't understand that. - Jeremy Brooks
@Jeff - Harrington lost my respect at this line..."decides that he is going to call in the museum's private Gestapo". The second link once again simply assumes TH's account is complete and accurate and piles on with the "hero" thing. - Soulhuntre
