As a young Kodak employee, Steve Sasson invented the digital camera. Kodak’s failure to commercialise it makes it a bittersweet success
- michael sean wright
from Bookmarklet
The thing I don't like about Twitter public lists is that there's no consent. Someone could add you to a "child molesters" list, for example: (p.s. blog post from this here: http://friendfeed.com/itafrom...)
Or a public "douche bags" list, or anything. Public categorization is dangerous in the hands of an individual; at least with aggregate (or crowd-sourced) categorization, the bad apples can be marginalized or removed. But when every list gets an equal voice, or someone popular decides to put you into a shit list, one individual's voice gets to be the loudest based purely on how extreme they are with their categorization. If I'm listed in 50 "technology person" lists, and 1 "fuckwit" list, guess which one stands out?
- Mark Trapp
Which is why I think there's a very good reason why Facebook, FriendFeed, and Google made list categorization private that Twitter completely missed.
- Mark Trapp
And personally, I resent being on "technology" and variant lists. That's like signing me up for spam that I can't opt out or protect myself from.
- Mark Trapp
Look for a big increase in @-reply-spam as this rolls out more widely :(
- LogEx
Makes me wonder what lists Scoble is on then.
- CW™
people are going to complain. Lawsuits will occur demanding that Twitter remove them from a list.
- CW™
You can see anyone's list memberships on their profile (another bonehead move): http://twitter.com/Scoblei... He's on mostly technology related lists. But all it takes is one person with a vendetta to use lists as a vehicle for libel or defamation.
- Mark Trapp
Mark, I think you're right. Someone could counter-argue that tweet "equality" has the same issue, but psychologically lists have more weight and cut by implication not expression which is more difficult for a victim to tackle. I've noticed for myself it even feels like a violation when I see a screencap of someone's own Friendfeed page which shows *their* Lists - just the description/name of the list has effect.
- Micah Wittman
I somehow made it on a tech blogging list. I don't think I ever wrote anything about tech blogging. Is there a free food Twitter list. Also, Mark, is Barton's dad on this mythical child molesters list?
- James Ferguson
Barton's dad is on my child molester list. And the state registry's list. The jig is up with him!
- Mark Trapp
I'm not sure it's Twitter's responsibility to prevent users from ding things that could get them sued for libel or defamation. Have some expectation of personal responsibility people.
- Kevin Fox
If you block a user, would that remove you from their lists? But I agree, you should be able to remove yourself (like untagging from a photo on Facebook)
- Stuart Miniman
Kevin: I agree that everyone ought to have personal responsibility, but there's absolutely nothing a person could do to protect themselves from a malicious use of lists other than to close out their account: I can't consent to the categorization, I can't remove myself from the categorization, and categorization is in no way dependent on my actions on Twitter (but rather, the actions of others). The fact that there's that in addition to the lists being attached to my profile page is nuts.
- Mark Trapp
There are a few basic steps Twitter could've taken, and should still take: don't attach lists to a person's profile and allow people to opt out of lists. More extremely, make list memberships opt-in or make all lists private.
- Mark Trapp
This is the problem with Twitter - it's too anonymous. It's the risk you take when you put yourself in such a public environment. If you're okay with that, fine - it's just the risk you take.
- Jesse Stay
That's a good point, Mark. Interesting discussion.
- joey
Yes, if you block a person who started a list it removes you from all the lists that person put you on.
- michael sean wright
I've said repeatedly, in both my blog post, here, and on Robert Scoble's feed, blocking is not the answer.
- Mark Trapp
One of the bigger problems I have with sites like Facebook is that I have no control over how others see my public profile (right now you'll prob see 16+ yr old girls asking you to contact them, surrounding my profile. I'm happily married, have 4 kids. Mark has a point. It's hard to maintain a personal brand on the web, and others that can classify you (wrongly) won't help. Then again Twitter is 90% bots so I don't think many will notice
- Alexander van Elsas
Mark: I don't understand. You say you can't remove yourself from a list, but you can by blocking the offender. You say that 'blocking isn't the answer' but it seems to be exactly that.
- Kevin Fox
Alexander: I'm on a roll tonight because I don't understand you either. You have pretty fine-grained control of what in your Facebook profile or feed is viewable to the public (or any other) scope, so you have tons of control over how others see your public profile. I don't see the 16+ year old girls asking me to contact them when I look at your profile. I see this: http://fury.com/tmp... What's the offensive part?
- Kevin Fox
Kevin, refresh the page a few times. and you will see other ads as well. The offensive part is that I have NO control over the right side of that page, yet it is directly related to my profile and therefore to my personal brand. This sucks on the web in general, but it sucks more on a site that is supposed to contain my dearest connections. I'm confusing everyone here it seems. I better stop talking now ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Kevin: let's say my friend decides he wants to put me in a "technology" or "owned-Barbies-when-he-was-5" list; my only recourse is to block someone I'd otherwise have no problem with because Twitter doesn't give me the ability to remove something from my profile otherwise. As I'm sure you've seen with FriendFeed and Facebook, blocking someone is considered a drastic and hostile action towards a person that isn't the same thing as opting out of a feature. And why aren't public lists opt-in anyway?
- Mark Trapp
Alexander: Are you sure that the ads on the right are directly related to your profile? I think they're more directly related to the viewer's profile than the profile he's viewing, and don't knw that they're related to the profile being viewed at all. And if you're worried about the ads on the page, then this is a problem you're going to experience all over the internet.
- Kevin Fox
Mark: Your arguments would go farther if you steered clear of the absolutes a bit. If this person is your friend enough that you don't want to block them, then presumably they're friend enough for you to ask them to take you off that list. 'Only recourse is to block my friend'? Pah. Also, public lists won't work if they're opt-in. Like Gwyneth Paltrow is going to sit around approving...
more...
- Kevin Fox
Kevin, that'd be a good middle ground, although I'd imagine if lists were opt-in, they'd function much like how FriendFeed and Facebook groups work now or how WeFollow works: someone can't subscribe me to a group, but if I want to be associated with a group of people, I opt-in by subscribing or joining the group.
- Mark Trapp
It's a difference in viewpoint. I don't see them as groups because I don't see lists as a tool for fostering two-way communication. I see lists like Google Reader bundles. Pre-rolled subscription packs curated by a knowledgeable third-party.
- Kevin Fox
I think Twitter should add a "public list opt-out" feature. It wasn't obvious when lists first came out that people might not want to be on them, but after seeing this, it's impossible to know if people want to be on them or not. It could be a problem for those wanting to opt-out of lists because you can't necessarily DM everyone that puts you on a list (and you don't always want to block them, as Mark said).
- Matt Mastracci
You would just block them. Then you get removed from the list
- Lindsey is Fierce!
@Kevin. I am fully aware that ads are part of the eco system of the web. But in this particular context (A friend is looking for me on Facebook), I think placement of (sleezy) ads are a bad idea. It seems to reflect on my profile/brand/identity and it cannot be controlled by me. Facebook should be the place where friends connect, not the place where an old friend finds you surrounded by advertisement
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander, I'm sorry the ads you get on Facebook are sleazy. I find the ads to be much better quality than those I see elsewhere on the web. Nevertheless, again with the absolutes. It's not like ads preclude Facebook from being the place where friends connect, and a right hand column hardly constitutes being 'surrounded by advertisement.'
- Kevin Fox
Man that's nuts, Facebook ads are among the shadiest on the respectable web. They're worse than AdSense ads, and AdSense ads are pretty bad.
- Paul Laroquod
AFI Fest is officially over. First film festival for me was a huge success - 10 days, 17 films (including at least two that will certainly make my top ten list this year). I've got the bug now; just being that engulfed with film, filmmakers, film critics, and filmgoers was intoxicating. Can't wait until the next one.
Of note, whoever is running Ellen's account followed the entire Twitter team, and they must have found a social media/tech news/bloggers list, because a ton of folks from FriendFeed and peers are on there. Yes... Ellen is following me. Yay.
- Louis Gray
Nearly four decades after Devo first deranged pop culture, the band returns Tuesday with a U.S. tour — and a cool line of bizarro rugs from head mutant Mark Mothersbaugh.
- michael sean wright
from Bookmarklet
Good to see that blocking the list maker removes you from the list. Should still be able to opt out of lists
- Mark Trapp
Yes, I'm sure. Blocking completely removes you from the list. Mark: you can opt out of lists. Just block the lists people put you on.
- Robert Scoble
FTR I wasn't attacking them. That link comes from Mark Trapp. It's an interesting conversation though. Also cool that you can block a list and take yourself out of it.
- Jesse Stay
Robert, you can't block lists. You can block people who created lists, which by extension, removes you from the list. That doesn't help people who want to opt out of a list but not block the list creator; I point this out in my post about not wanting to be in technology lists for example. Beyond that, the core issue is that Twitter is now allowing other users to modify your profile...
more...
- Mark Trapp
I also don't understand why it's lame - Mark has some valid points.
- Jesse Stay
FWIW Facebook has this with photo tagging - Twitter should do something similar. If you're "tagged" in a photo or video, you can immediately remove the tag. You can also set privacy preferences as to who can see tagged photos/videos of you (based on list).
- Jesse Stay
That's really all that's required, Jesse: I think it's a simple security/privacy consideration that shouldn't change the functionality of lists. Right now, however, the functionality makes a privacy assumption that doesn't exist anywhere else in Twitter, and people ought to know that or Twitter needs to fix it.
- Mark Trapp
And thus begins privacy controls in Twitter, and thus starts Twitter's journey towards competing with Facebook. :-)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse - have the battle with privacy is not the automated control you put in but the Human Element. If you are that concerned about privacy control it yourself
- Rob Cairns
Rob, I'm not sure where I said anything about automation
- Jesse Stay
Mark, I'm not really seeing your argument here, it sounds a bit paranoid. If someone puts you on a benign list you don't want to be on for some reason, just contact the list creator. If they fail to comply with a polite request, they are NOT your friend and you just block them. Why would you feel the need to still follow them? If someone puts you on a malevolent list of some sort...
more...
- Alex Schleber
BTW, I just scoured Scoble's first few hundred "listed" entries (of his current 1400+), and the most egregious terms I could find were "echochamber", "tech freak", and "scobleitis" :) Hardly slander/libel material. And you know someone out there isn't big on Robert, but I doubt they will bother to add him to a negative list. They just blocked him early on...
- Alex Schleber
Mark: have you even tried this? Steve Gillmor and I have. If I block a list's owner it removes me from all of his lists.
- Robert Scoble
which I have. he's so blocked. Check Tech Pundits. I'm not there.
- Steve Gillmor
Robert: you said repeatedly you can block a list. I said you can't: you can only block a list creator, which subsequently blocks any list they created. Now you're saying the exact same thing I said. There's a difference I don't think you're picking up on: I want to be able to remove myself from lists, not block people. If I have a friend who's decided to categorize me as "technology" and I don't want to be in that list, my only recourse is to block my friend. That's not ideal at all.
- Mark Trapp
On top of the fact that blocking is reactive, not preventative. I have to realize I'm in a list before I can take action to remove myself from it. I don't want to be part of any technology related lists, yet I have to wait until someone tags me as such before I can block that person to remove myself from it. Why aren't lists opt-in, especially considering the list memberships show up on my profile? I have no control over a major part of my profile, which is unlike any other part of Twitter.
- Mark Trapp
At the very least, list shouldn't be part of my profile (since I can't control, directly, what lists I'm apart of) and I should be able to remove myself from a list without blocking the list creator. I don't see how that's unreasonable or the argument against having those two pieces of functionality.
- Mark Trapp
One of the bigger problems I have with sites like Facebook is that I have no control over how others see my public profile (right now you'll prob see 16+ yr old girls asking you to contact them, surrounding my profile. I'm happily married, have 4 kids. Mark has a point. It's hard to maintain a personal brand on the web, and others that can classify you (wrongly) won't help. Then again Twitter is 90% bots so I don't think many will notice
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander: actually Twitter isn't 90% bots. Just 50%. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Alexander, have you tried privacy settings in Facebook? That's why you use Facebook - it gives you that control. (I thought this conversation was about Twitter) (confused)
- Jesse Stay
Robert, I'm suspecting you are a bot too. Can we do a turing test right now to see :-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Jesse, I tried. But I couldn't find that switch that protected me from Facebook themselves. So I gave up.
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander: I'm a bot with awesome voice recognition. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Alexander - protected you from Facebook themselves? It's called your own blog. :-)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, I just looked you up on Facebook. I saw a "buy this cheap house now, color your picture into a cartoon, and a dental advertisement. What does that say about you? Are you a cheap cartoon real-estate dentist, or are you a cool web 2.0 dude?
- Alexander van Elsas
The thing is Jesse, you can set settings any way you want, but Facebook has an advertisement based model. So they'll display ads, usually incredibly badly targeted, next to your profile. And there is nothing that prevents them from doing that. If I use Facebook to connect to people I care about, then I do not want to be associated with badly targeted ads (or any ads for that matter)
- Alexander van Elsas
BTW, it took me 2 screen refreshes to see a beautiful, but way too young girl next to your profile ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander, not sure that has anything to do with Twitter or Facebook then - the only place you're completely safe from that stuff is your own blog. BTW, click on the profile - of course you're going to see non-related info next to my name in a search.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, don't agree. Facebook is for connecting with friends (or business partners). Important in your social interactions. So if Facebook serves badly targeted ads next to your profile it sucks. Especially on the search page, which is the most likely place people that are looking for you will find you! Their business model makes this happen. And their privacy settings only relate to your privacy towards other users, not towards Facebook. They own it all. Sorry for the hijack, will stop now.
- Alexander van Elsas
Still not sure what you're arguing Alexander. I've never had trouble finding close friends and family. Your results will get much more accurate when those friends are already friends of other friends of yours, which is usually the case of how I find people on Facebook. If not, just Google them - those profiles are indexable for at least their names.
- Jesse Stay
Alexander, I agree. It seems to me that there are targeted ads (some I find really offensive as if they think they know what I want) but then there are also ads that are random: they are going to always go for the wide net with those.
- Melanie Reed
Jesse, my point is that if someone searches and finds me on Facebook, Facebook will display ads on the search result page next to my profile. Those ads tend to be badly targeted. Let's say an old friend, business partner, or recruiter is looking for me and sees those ads of 16 yr old girls looking for some action next to my profile, what does that make them think about me?
- Alexander van Elsas
That there are badly-placed ads just like everywhere else on Facebook next to your profile. What does this have to do with removing yourself from Twitter lists?
- Jesse Stay
I mentioned it because I think I understand why Mark Trapp is questioning the way lists have been implemented on Twitter. It is a similar issue I think. If they incorrectly categorize or misplace me ('real-estate-heroes'), it affects how others will perceive me. (Hope I'm right Mark :-) )
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander I don't see the relation in that case - you can't remove yourself from Twitter search either so long as you have a Twitter account, and you can bet that will have ads in the very near future. What about Google, that places ads around your content? That's just the price for being on the web. What Mark's talking about is the actions of other users - how can I remove myself from a list some other user has placed me in? What you're talking about is a much bigger problem of the web as a whole.
- Jesse Stay
Not looking to be right or wrong, just mentioned it. But hey, I haven't seen this much discussion action on FF in a while :-)
- Alexander van Elsas
I'm talking about both things: someone else shouldn't be able to dictate, by implication or otherwise, how I'm perceived on my own profile. People can @ me, or say, on their own Twitter stream, that I'm a dick, or a puppy killer, or whatever, but that's attached to them, not to my profile. The way Twitter lists are implemented, they're attached to me rather than the person making the...
more...
- Mark Trapp
Mark I don't see how that has anything to do with search though (re: both things)
- Jesse Stay
Alex said I was questioning the way lists have been implemented on Twitter, that if someone incorrectly categorizes me, it affects how people perceive me. You said that I'm talking about the actions of other users, and how can I remove myself from a list a user has placed me in. Both things are under the domain of my argument. I don't really care about search, unless, as Alex is suggesting, things I didn't consent to are being attached to my profile in a search result.
- Mark Trapp
Mark, the latter is just a part of being on the web. Don't open an internet browser if you don't want that. You can't control that on Twitter or Facebook or Google or even your own site (assuming you allow ads) for that matter. It's crazy to think anyone can control how they show up in a search result in relation to ads.
- Jesse Stay
Mark: you are wrong and the era of control is over (Steve Gillmor tells me that every show). Personally this is freaking awesome that you can see how people perceive me. And I can see it too. If I don't like how people are perceiving me, I can block them or I can contact them and try to change how they perceive me. But so far I've been looking at thousands of people and this system is REMARKABLY accurate.
- Robert Scoble
Jesse: which is why I don't care about search, and it isn't part of my argument. Alex is making a stronger connection between the ads served and my profile, and if he's correct, then there's a problem. But I'm fine with him, not me, tackling that problem: I think the Twitter list implementation is problematic even without considering search implications.
- Mark Trapp
Hey Robert, Just looked you up on Facebook and I saw a pretty sleezy looking girl next to you. Facebook decided to do that. You may not mind, but I think it sucks within the context of Facebook and what it should stand for (connecting friends). Facebook could easily decide not to present that advertisement, but they don't. And with that, they affect our personal brand. Jesse. Don't...
more...
- Alexander van Elsas
Robert: there's nothing particular about the Twitter list implementation that ensures that they are being used for actual perception, and not for other uses (I outlined two: spam and maliciousness). Very basic functionality could be added to lists to mitigate those, non legitimate, uses without changing the core functionality. For instance, your use case you just described, being able to see how others perceive you, does not require lists being public or attached to your profile.
- Mark Trapp
Alexander your argument is ridiculous and I'm just going to leave it at that - this is getting repetitive. I see Robert's side of this on the lists - personally, it doesn't matter to me too much. In the end I could just report it to Twitter, but I always have the option of blocking. IMO if the individual isn't willing to remove me from one of their lists after respectfully asking them they deserve to be blocked. They're jerks anyway.
- Jesse Stay
Mark: actually, having them attached to your profile and public means I can learn about how others view YOU. This is ABSOLUTELY HUGE in networking. But, yes, I can see why it would freak you out. You better be nice to all of us or else we'll put you on the nasty list. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Jesse, 'your argument is ridiculous' is a good way of shutting me up. I won't say another word
- Alexander van Elsas
@Robert: You said at #140Conf that Lists aren't spammable. I say they will be. What if scumbag spammers create multiple accounts and add all their usernames to various lists? So, your search for "pilots" could be yield a bunch of phony lists with fake pilots. You could eventually go through the trouble of blocking all those users to kill the lists, but a big waste of time for you. Others could be fooled.
- Bryan Person
@vanelsas you are forgetting that Facebook is targeting those ads AT YOU. They primarily go by YOUR demographics and profile keywords from what I understand. Either way, people understand that ads are not the responsibility of the profile owner (most of them get completely ignored anyway). I really don't get your and Mark's fears about this stuff. Seems overblown. So what if someone says something you don't like about or near you? It's called life...deal with it.
- Alex Schleber
Like anything, lists need to be taken with grain of salt. Most will be ego boosts and people trying to chum one another. I don't think lists will be a "game changer". Too subjective.
- Kasey Skala
This is why lists is in beta, to work out the kinks and I'm sure if it becomes an issue, Twitter will add the ability to opt-out. Perhaps instead of opting out it would be better to use an opt-in format. If someone adds my name to a list I get a DM from Twitter asking me if I want to be on it and if I don't reply in the affirmative I'm not added to the list.
- Hugh Briss
Having to block a person to come off their list is like having to report a newsletter as spam rather than simply unsubscribing. Not to mention it raises flags with Twitter's abuse people when someone is blocked by several people.
- Rooker
Mark: I have the 64-bit version of Vista and on a brand new machine it was constantly crashing. Really sucked. Probably was a bad display driver. Since getting Windows 7 I have not had a single crash.
- Robert Scoble
@Robert >I love Win7 for the same reason.
- Russellreno
Pics? Sorry I'm a sucker for viewing other people's workspaces.
- Steve Farnworth
Robert, why would you buy the dual and not wait for the quad? Just curious.
- Susan Scrupski
Susan: because I don't need even the dual for the most part. My heavy duty editing is done by Rocky on a huge Mac Pro.
- Robert Scoble
Now you're just getting lazy with your scripts!
- Mike Nayyar
Lorem Ipsum is simply dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. Lorem Ipsum has been the industry's standard dummy text ever since the 1500s, when an unknown printer took a galley of type and scrambled it to make a type specimen book. It has survived not only five centuries, but also the leap into electronic typesetting, remaining essentially unchanged. It was popularised in...
more...
- LogEx
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
- LogEx
So it's since Tuesday huh? The ultimate thread. How will the thread die then? We must have a limit for that, let's say 24h without one comment.
- ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,
As a side note, I do have to applaud the endurance and pettiness of those of us on FriendFeed. No one on Facebook gave this status update a second look!
- Mike Nayyar
We pride ourselves in our pettiness and obsessiveness. Um, wait.
- LogEx
Remember. It's not whole Scoble likes. It's who likes Scoble.
- Akiva Moskovitz
According to FriendFeed, that's everyone. And some Twitter marketers and SEO experts.
- Mike Nayyar
Mike will get in the last word. Eventually. Everyone else is an idiot for playing his little game. Me included. :-)
- Robert Scoble
I'm not actually playing. Or, if I am, I'm playing to lose.
- Akiva Moskovitz
HAHA! You see that? Robert Scoble acknowledges I will eventually win! HAHA! FINALLY! For once in my life, I win! :) :) :) :) Unless Logical shows up...
- Mike Nayyar
Only mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
- LogEx
We're testing the limit on the number of comments.
- DGentry
Nah, the FFundercats live chat pushed that one way over the top. We are, however, testing the limits oh how sick people are getting of setting my face.
- Mike Nayyar
This thread has a lot of comments, that must mean Mike is an expert of some kind...or maybe an A-Lister. Must stalk^H^H^H^H^Hinvestigate him...
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Wow losts of comments...shame this is the last comment though.
- Nicholas James
Olympus too? Good thing Logical doesn't know any Japanese mythological figures.
- Mike Nayyar
All right, if you're going to play that way, Raijin AND Ajisukitakahikone are BOTH mad at you. And Raijin was especially unhappy because you interrupted his NOMmage of children's bellybuttons.
- LogEx
Dude, my best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Raijin put down the platter.
- LogEx
We'd be content, of course, if you (Mike) issued a public retraction of the assertion in your post, followed by allowing someone else to post the last comment in the thread ;-)
- LogEx
LE: Someone is going to go "last" again and it will continue ;)
- Nicholas James
Logical made it into a competition and now alot of people want to hold the title as the last comment on this thread. It will eventually stop when people give up and/or another one is made ;)
- Nicholas James
Gordon: No-one is going to give up. Well about 85% of the people on here already have...its just time to wait for the remaining people to give up and let me post "LAST"
- Nicholas James
Someone will eventually win this. However, since everyone else will have clicked "Hide" by then, they won't be able to tell anyone about it.
- Glen Campbell
You know at some point, expanding this comment will really put a strain on mortal browsers. It already has a 3 second pause to expand it.
- Mark Philpot
I wonder if at some point we will hit a soft limit and FF won't let it keep going. That or they look at this as a great high-bounds test case for the system.
- Sparky Crocker