90% Oxygen, 10% Nitrogen, oh yeah that is the stuff, baby. I hear they smuggle it in from the Amazon in the lungs of Oxygen mules
- RAPatton
from iPhone
Makes me think of spaceballs and Perri-"air"
- mikepk
you mean you know you're in a liberal hotel. They need to offer this in China. The air in Los Angeles is 1000 times better than it used to be.
- David C. Cooper
Stuff like that is one reason people love to make fun of LA. Thankfully that makes up about 000000000.1 percent of what the city is actually about.
- Noah Belson
Having said that, I wouldn't mind trying personal oxygen, just so I could say I did, etc.
- Noah Belson
Snake oil comes in gaseous form now. Huh. Modern conveniences, eh.
- Micah Wittman
The postcard says "Postage will be paid by addressee", which implies it's the senator who will be paying the postage. Of course, the senator's franking privileges may make it so that the taxpayers pay the postage.
- Gabe
True. But why is it that the Senator Hagan/taxpayers should be paying for Blue Cross' message?
- Christopher Chung
My friend did this, too. I hope I get one in the mail.
- Ayşe E.
They haven't sent me one of these, but when they do, I'll be sure to mail it in unmodified (or with a big "NO ON PUBLIC OPTION" written on it, perhaps). The very notion of government run health insurance is a travesty that will end up bankrupting this country.
- Otto
So you don't think Medicare or the Veterans Health Administration is going to pan out, even after all these years?
- Mark Trapp
Medicare and the VA system are living proof of my statements. They offer crappy service and are continually costing more and more as time goes on. They are unsustainable in the long term, and basically expanding these failures to cover everybody is only going to accelerate the problem.
- Otto
What's long term? The VA system has been going since 1778, and Medicare since 1965. Are you thinking at the 300 year mark, they'll finally collapse?
- Mark Trapp
Right on! Good for you! That's a great idea
- Ciaoenrico
Our Canadian single-payer health care has been going strong for some time now with no risk of bankruptcy. I'd like to see some evidence that our system is unsustainable.
- Matt Mastracci
The VA system is garbage, ask any veteran who has to use it on a regular basis. And medicare is on the verge of bankruptcy, and has been for at least decade now. Last I checked, medicare was the biggest drain of tax revenue that exists. Predictions I've seen give it 10 more years, tops, even with restructuring.
- Otto
Of course, the assertion that government-run health insurance is unsustainable (whether Medicare, the VA, the Canadian system, or any other) raises the question of what system is more sustainable than government-run insurance. It's certainly not the current American one. ... I love April's use of the mailer.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of health care reform... But insurance reform is unnecessary. The problem is not the insurance companies, their reactions and bad-behaviors are created by the high cost of medical care to begin with. Fix the health care system to not cost so damn much, and the problems with insurance will solve themselves. Strike at the source of the problems, not at the consequences of them.
- Otto
Otto: Insurance causes high prices of medical care. Since you don't pay, the hospital can set its prices arbitrarily high and the insurance company pays whatever its maximum is. Since the insurance company pays so much, they have to have high insurance rates, which makes insurance expensive to buy. If the government had their own insurance, they would be big enough to demand low prices,...
more...
- Gabe
That's insane. The existence of insurance does not cause the high price of medial care. You have it exactly backwards. Furthermore, the idea of a government-run-insurance plan would not solve that problem, if it was at all the truth, because you're dealing with a supply demand situation. The government run plan could say they weren't going to pay above $X, at which point the medical...
more...
- Otto
The truth is that most of the waste in medical costs comes from two places: administrative overhead and fraud. Both of these are primarily caused by Medicare and the bureaucracy surrounding it.
- Otto
@Otto - why do you think there is so much administrative overhead? To deal with all the different insurance companies and the reems of paperwork to get a claim approved and avoid malpractice suits. That means more people have to be hired and trained just to deal with all that stuff and more systems and processes have to be put in place to handle it all. Insurance companies make more...
more...
- Fa La La La Lindsay
@Lindsay: I know several people who work in administrative roles in hospitals. Not one of them agrees with you. The problem isn't the insurance forms and such, those are fairly standard. Almost all of the administrative overhead is due specifically to Medicare. And no, I do not work in the health insurance industry, so your ad-hominem attack makes no sense whatsoever. Why is it that...
more...
- Otto
@Robert: I'm not ignoring evidence from other countries, I'm discounting most of it based on facts that contradict the ones you are linking to. And Medicare has lower costs than private insurance because it rarely pays for anything. How many people who have medicare must also have their own insurance in order to get proper medical treatment? Have you looked up the numbers on that?
- Otto
Otto, how does limiting the pricing result in providers refusing service? In Canada, the Federal Government sets the pricing schedule, but the private providers are still here, providing us good service for a set fee. More info on our system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... I would say that our health care system is an excellent counterpoint to "if you fix the fees at a certain point, providers will stop providing service".
- Matt Mastracci
Otto - would you care to share some references which contain the facts that contradict those which I shared? I am open-minded, but I need to see actual data from credible sources to form my opinions.
- Robert Felty
How does Otto make the claim that insurance isn't even part of the problem when medical loss ratios in the health insurance business have dropped from 95% to 80% in just 15 years? (and if you don't know what that means, you don't have an informed opinion about health care reform.)
- Andrew C
I am always amazed at the ignorance of those arguing against public health care services when practically the entire world is doing it and they always have their facts wrong about Medicare and every other system. They'll become advocates when they or their loved ones are being evicted or foreclosed upon while they are dying an excruciating and untreated death.
- Brad Nickel
Otto, just exactly how many veterans have you actually talked to? The VA definitely has flaws, but all the veterans I've talked to seem to like the service provided, and often compare it favorably to the private sector. And why are all those people out there so opposed to changing Medicare if it's so terrible? Since you've stated you haven't seen a doctor in decades, how could you possibly have any experience with any health care system whatsoever?
- Victor Ganata
FFS... @Matt: Canada has a lower doctor to patient ratio than anybody else does, and it's decreasing all the time. @Robert: You have Google. Use it. I wouldn't believe links you provide me, so why should you believe links I provide you? Do your own research and make up your own mind. I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else, and I frankly don't care what you believe. @Andrew C:...
more...
- Otto
*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by second-hand anecdotal evidence from someone who doesn't have any recent direct experience with any health care system? If you don't care, why do you continue to post?
- Victor Ganata
*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by somebody who actually has a vested interest in the health care system (ie, a doctor)? See, I can use fallacious arguments as well as you can, Victor! ;) Also, I post to express my opinions and ideas. Why else would anybody post anything?
- Otto
Otto, your facts on doctor:patient ratio are incorrect. Our ratio is 2.2 per 1000, versus 2.4 per 1000 in the USA. In fact, our ratio has improved from 2.1 in the 1990s. While our doctor:patient ratio is not as high as other public health care systems, it isn't far off that of the USA.
- Matt Mastracci
Otto, but, fair is fair, so long as you don't pretend your anecdotes are generalizable truth, I won't pretend mine are either. It is clear that you do have quite a grasp on fallacious arguments. :) And I do agree that it's important to consider the source of your evidence.
- Victor Ganata
Otto, the dropping medical loss ratio specifically means an increasing share of premiums isn't going towards paying for health care; that is /by itself/ inherently bad! In an actual working market, advances in efficiency, if any, would be passed along to the consumers in the form of lower premiums. Instead, prices are getting jacked up even faster than health care inflation because the health care insurance industry exploits monopoly power.
- Andrew C
@Matt: According to the WHO: http://nofearsingapore.blogspot.com/2007... the numbers are slightly different. Close, admittedly. However, the important thing to note is that Canada's ratio is the lowest among almost all industrialized countries, which was my point. I was not comparing to the US, specifically.
- Otto
@Andrew C: I understand what "medical loss ratio" means. I understand what "profit" and "premiums" are. What I don't understand is why you think a company should not be allowed to make a legitimate profit? Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble. Or, if you really want to see the loss ratios decrease, then ALLOW COMPETITION. Currently there is virtually no...
more...
- Otto
You make no sense. A company should certainly be allowed to make a legitimate profit, but indefinitely extracting rent at this level is a clear symptom of market-setting power. Trying to call one the other doesn't actually make them the same thing. Also, people can only reasonably get it from their employer _because that's the only affordable option_. Individual insurance exists; it's...
more...
- Andrew C
I find it pretty funny BTW that you have implicitly agreed with the rest of us that the health care _insurance_ industry actually is part of the problem.
- Andrew C
"Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble." It shouldn't have to be a game. Everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their life. It's a matter of how you will be able to afford to pay for it. People pay for insurance because it's the only way they can afford to ensure that their health will be taken care of. It's not really an option if you...
more...
- Fa La La La Lindsay
lolling at the "insurance is a gamble" statement. Classic.
- Andrizzle Gizzle
It's the conservative message: You're On Your Own.
- Andrew C
For the record, I'm not a conservative. I'm also not a liberal. I'm a person, with my own opinions and ideas. Labeling people only means that you're not paying attention to what they're saying.
- Otto
@Andrew C: Individual insurance is priced out of the market because of regulations limiting what kinds of plans can be offered. Why can I not a health insurance plan for, say, emergencies only? I'm healthy, I don't have any need to go to the doctor much, I never get sick, the only reason I'd need to do so would be an accident. So why can't I buy that insurance? State regulations...
more...
- Otto
@Lindsay: Your statements are provably false. Not everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their lives. Furthermore, if your statement was true, health insurance would not work at all, since the entire point of "insurance" is to spread risk. If risk was 100%, as you claim, then there's nothing to spread. For the record, I do not currently have, nor need, health...
more...
- Otto
So basically you're gambling, hoping that you will "win the game". At what point do you decide you need insurance? And hopefully you don't get anything before then. It is pointless to argue with someone like this, just let him enjoy his smug satisfaction on having figured out the whole mess.
- Andrizzle Gizzle
Everyone has some chance of getting hit by a bus or eating E.coli tainted food or having a tree branch fall on them. {shrug}
- Andrew C
Except for the winners who have somehow divined ways not to do so, I guess.
- Andrew C
Otto is completely right. Insurance, not having insurance, it's all gambling. What's relevant is regulation limits choices; or forces one person's judgement and preferences on another. Big government healthcare won't work because the government can't do anything well because unlike a market it doesn't have distributed knowlege and I don't think the incentives are right. Witness the UK's...
more...
- Rob Fisher
While I don't know if we're using the word catastrophe in the same way, clearly there are policies that have very high deductibles where realistically, the only time they would pay benefits would be if you ended up hospitalized. And there are plenty of policies that don't cover preventative care at all. Even these types of policies are out of the reach of quite a few Americans.
- Victor Ganata
What a silly response Otto. Its all emotional. Why do you think the argument here is so passionate? The fact that you would even dismiss it that way tells me everything I need to know about your point of view and existence. Sad.
- Brad Nickel
from email
If "the government can't do anything well" why do they even exist? Unless you're an anarchist, I can't see how it makes sense.
- Victor Ganata
There are limited things governments might be good at. Defense of the realm; keeping the peace. They are not good at providing goods and services. When they try to provide (or control the supply of) food, for example, you get famine. That's because you need market signals to stimulate [the right amount of] supply [and demand<delete], and that information is not centralised. The same problem affects government supplied healthcare. Hence waiting lists.
- Rob Fisher
We have waiting lists now. In what way are the NHS's waiting lists worse than the delays caused by having to argue with insurance companies to get coverage for diagnostic tests, procedures, and specialist referrals?
- Victor Ganata
Because the latter involves the invisible hand somehow!
- Andrew C
It's hard to say. I'm not arguing that you don't have a problem, just that more government isn't the solution. E.g. on the NHS you often end up paying for your own treatment anyway just so you get it in time. This is not an improvement.
- Rob Fisher
So that's not really different from the current system we have now: you can always pay cash. I think "more government isn't the solution" is a bare assertion that needs a fair amount of evidence to actually prove.
- Victor Ganata
Medicare and the VHA have waiting lists? Really? I haven't ever heard anyone waiting for Medicare, and it's single payer. I haven't heard of anyone in England (or Canada, or any other developed country) put on a waiting list. Do you have evidence to support that? You would write off education, food safety, the highway system, firemen, and air safety as well? Seems like you're asking for a very extreme form of government that isn't very much like what developed countries are or what they provide.
- Mark Trapp
Otto: The way that discourse works in research-based journals is that one person makes a claim, and backs that up with either data, and/or references to other research. I would happily read any references you give. I don't understand why you wouldn't look at references that I give.
- Robert Felty
Rob Fisher: if government controlled healthcare doesn't work, then why does Canada spend less on health care per person, but have lower infant mortality rates, and longer life expectancy? In addition, these numbers have improved since they started their single payer system, while our numbers have basically remained flat. http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues...
- Robert Felty
Victor: What can I say? You probably won't be impressed by my Austrian economics theory. You could come and live in the UK and get sick, and see what it's like. :) I do hope the USA manages to avoid the worst of it. Maybe look around at what many other countries do; I don't think anyone gets it quite right. Singapore seems to have good healthcare; but their statistics look good partly...
more...
- Rob Fisher
Part of the reason all healthcare isn't like that is because not all health procedures and exams are as simple as eye exams.
- Andrew C
I also think it's fallacious to believe we're actually arguing about a completely government controlled system. The public option is not even close to a true single-payer system, and nowhere near a nationalized health care system. It is quite similar to Medicare, except with different eligibility criteria, and as far as I can tell, Medicare doesn't seem to have destroyed the private health insurance industry, no matter how many people try to argue that slippery slope.
- Victor Ganata
You probably can't get a new liver in an hour and expect to have a good outcome no matter where you go.
- Victor Ganata
But you should be able to get simple scans and tests quickly and cheaply. You can't on the NHS. The point about this not being about an NHS-like system is taken, though.
- Rob Fisher
If you are insured by a private insurer in the US your health fate is decided by insurance underwriters and doctor panels whose sole mandate is to save and make money for the company- not to keep you healthy or prevent you from getting sick or sicker. A doctor's intuition on what a patient may need, even in terms of preventative/investigative testing is hooey as far as they are...
more...
- Karma Martell
How do we get to a point where you can make money by keeping people healthy? People want to be healthy, so it must be doable.
- Rob Fisher
The prescription drug cos would fold, Rob. That is not what they want.
- Karma Martell
i wish i could do more than "like" this. oh, and while i'm here loving this, @Rob Fisher -- my answer is, make money doing something other than "keeping people healthy" -- putting profit and human life in the same objective is bound to have some horrifying conflicts of interest, no matter how pure the "health" motivation is. and with $$ involved, it will never even be close to approximating pure.
- (dot)lizard kelly
@Rob - you can make money by keeping people healthy, but as (dot)lizard kelly just said, you can make _more_ money by not... for example, by collecting premiums from healthy people and denying coverage to your sick customers.
- Andrew C
@kelly - I wouldn't mind people profiting by keeping people healthy. Hospitals and doctors do that. The trouble with insurance companies is that they profit by denying people care.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
Karma: As long as *someone* can make money at it, doesn't matter who. (dot)lizard kelly: food is important to be healthy; people make money at providing food; no conflict of interest there. I'm not convinced there's anything so different about healthcare. I'll sleep on it and let you know if I have thought of an amazing business plan in the morning. And if it doesn't work, I'll be looking for regulations that stop it working.
- Rob Fisher
(I suspect the reason is you can't switch insurance companies easily.)
- Rob Fisher
Simple scans and tests frequently lead to incidental findings that are almost always benign but lead to literal million dollar workups. I actually don't think easy access to everything is always the right answer.
- Victor Ganata
The food example may not be a good counter-argument here in the U.S., where farmers have actually been paid not to grow things in order to artificially keep prices up.
- Victor Ganata
Evidently you and others that spout this free market gobbldy gook have never worked for corporate America and the absolute incompetence in those organizations. Hello , can you say mortgage, banking, savings and loan, energy, etc etc etc. It is a lie and a myth and you folks have gotten away with it for far too long! Thanks, Brad
- Brad Nickel
from email
I have worked for corp America. As Brad says, free market is never free. The wealth is not distributed. There needs to be accountability and standards. As Obama says, an insurance co should not be able to come between a decision made by you and your doctor. And Victor, it's about fair access, not just access if you have the money and you can override the system.
- Karma Martell
The problem is that access is controlled by two forces: actual medical need, and the need to generate a profit, and lots of times these forces end up opposing each other. As the costs of medical care continue to increase, I think we're going to have to decide as a society which is actually more important.
- Victor Ganata
This is not to say that I don't think people who actually provide the care shouldn't be compensated for their labor. (In my case, that's just self-interest.) But there's a huge difference between fair compensation and outright profiteering.
- Victor Ganata
So who is paying for the "Public Option"?
- Brett Veenstra
And who here does not know Blue Cross is a private company.
- Mahmood Padura
If you go by what's in the House bill, the public option will initially be financed by seed money from the federal government that is supposed to be paid back in 10 years. In the long run, it's supposed to be funded entirely by the premiums of people who choose to participate in the plan.
- Victor Ganata
Otto: it is not the existence of insurance companies that keep prices high (auto insurance's existence doesn't make auto repairs artificially inflated), it is how the system works. If I am a healthcare provider and you are a patient who will only pay $100 no matter how expensive the treatment is, I can set the price as high as I want. Your insurance might only cover $500, but somebody else's might cover $1000 or $5000, so there's no reason I shouldn't set my price at $5000 for the treatment.
- Gabe
Furthermore, let's say that there's a 1% chance that you'll need another $5000 test (an MRI perhaps). If you do need it and I don't give it to you, there's a chance you'll sue me and my malpractice insurance goes way up. If I give it to you and you don't need it, you don't care because you're not paying for it. You end up getting lots unnecessary tests just so I don't get sued. In...
more...
- Gabe
I dunno, didn't Japan solve the MRI problem by providing lots of them and driving the cost-per-exam down? ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh... )
- Andrew C
And besides, the insurance companies in the States deal with that problem by denying procedures.
- Andrew C
It might be instructive to look at the US airline industry before and after deregulation. It used to be that prices were fixed, so airlines competed on service. This meant that service was good, and profits were built-in so airlines weren't constantly in bankruptcy. It also meant that flying was a luxury that most people could not afford, which made it not so crowded either. After...
more...
- Gabe
Unless you intend on repealing EMTALA, access to emergency care regardless of ability to pay is in fact a guaranteed right in the U.S.
- Victor Ganata
Hmmmm... Unless Crutis you think they fall within Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! Thanks, Brad
- Brad Nickel
from email
What of someone is happiest if they choose not to acquire health care insurance? It would seem to me that the imposition would thwart their pursuit and remove their liberty.
- Mattb4rd
When are we going to learn that the cake really is a lie? Re: Washington D.C. - I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
- Mattb4rd
Civilization is impossible without some form of government. The idea that we can live without it is the lie.
- Victor Ganata
No, the lie is that government is somehow required in all aspects of daily life. Civilization does need government, but mostly it needs it to stay as small as possible and leave people alone as much as possible. You are not a child. Grow up and deal with your own problems instead of expecting the rest of society to take care of you.
- Otto
BTW, a "public option" doesn't actually bother me provided you use absolutely zero tax money to pay for it. Make it paid for entirely by the premiums of the people who opt-in to it, and I have no further argument against it whatsoever. (Also, eliminate the part of the current plan that imposes tax penalties on those of us who choose to not have health insurance, as that is simply flat-out wrong. If I choose to cover my own risk, then that is my business, not the governments.)
- Otto
Yeah Otto, that works well. For example banks, mortgage companies, savings and loans, toys from China, Enron.... The naive Libertarian view of the world that somehow everything will work out in the end and all will be well makes me laugh every time I hear it. Greed, perversion, violence, and chaos don't go away when the government goes away. Human run institutions are all equally flawed...
more...
- Brad Nickel
from email
Brad: I don't know what world you're living in, but it's not the same one I am. Government has done very little good in the world, and is in fact responsible for the vast majority of evil in it. Perhaps you forget who's waging wars, eh? A few people inconvenienced by a bank or who signed bad mortgages doesn't really much compare to millions and millions of dead people. Also, "this...
more...
- Otto
Sure, because the US Department of Defense had absolutely nothing to do with the Internet whatsoever. But I agree. To believe that the government is either completely virtuous or always evil is delusional.
- Victor Ganata
Actually Otto, religion and greed are responsible for most of the wars. Whether a government fights them or not is irrelevant and these days its private corporations that are fighting much of our wars and doing a piss poor job of it as evidenced by the debacle that is Iraq. That there is a fine example of where we should have let government run things, but we had to privatize things at...
more...
- Brad Nickel
from email
@Victor: The DoD had very little to do with creating the internet, short of funding it. They paid for it in order to connect universities together (whom they were funding for other projects as well). It's not like they sent over a bunch of engineers to lay some cables or actually wrote any of the protocols or anything. Vint Cerf didn't actually go work for DARPA until 1976. The first pipes were laid when he was still in school.
- Otto
@Brad: It's amazing to me that anybody can espouse a philosophy like yours, which enables governments to control the population and do basically anything they like, including killing millions of innocent people through senseless wars and immoral legislation. Corporations didn't bomb Iraq and Afghanistan, the federal government did. Corporations didn't lie to us about the non-existent...
more...
- Otto
Yes, because ordinary people with no funding or government backing whatsoever can always complete large scale worldwide projects if they just work hard enough, without any assistance. Rugged individualism FTW.
- Victor Ganata
@Victor: Why must everything come down to "large scale" and "worldwide" in your view? Are you so incapable of taking care of your own problems that you want to a) take care of everybody else's and b) have yours taken care of by everybody else? We're talking about health care. Why must "health" be a worldwide problem, to the extent that you want to take away individual rights in favor of...
more...
- Otto
Otto, where are we talking about taking away individual rights? I'm talking about HR 3200, not some fantastical single payer system or some nationalized health care system from your paranoid nightmares. Don't be a fool. Look around you right now. Clearly health can be a worldwide problem. And it's disingenuous to believe the Internet would have been built if some government hadn't been around to provide funding.
- Victor Ganata
Silly Otto... Its obvious that an informed conversation with you is impossible, since you are unable to defend your actual philosophy or arguments and rely upon distortions and extremely silly exaggerations to try and make a point when the question being asked can not be answered with the truth. This happens every single time I debate a Libertarian. They can't explain themselves or how...
more...
- Brad Nickel
from email
Because we'll have to pay for your silly self to keep you alive when you are sick and dying and don't have coverage.
- Brad Nickel
from email
@Victor: HR3200 takes away my right to choose my own health insurance (in my case, none) by imposing additional taxation and penalties for my choice. It also uses tax money to finance the "public option", which I'm firmly opposed to. And it's disingenuous to believe that the internet would have NOT been built if the government had not provided the funding. It would have happened...
more...
- Otto
@Brad: I'm tired of listening to your socialist and communist rhetoric. (See? I can apply incorrect labels just as well as you can! I'm not a "Libertarian".) Anyway, if you want the government to control your life, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested. Also, if you can find anywhere I called you anything other than "Brad", I'd be very interested. Note: Saying your ideas amount to "totalitarianism" isn't name-calling when it's true.
- Otto
You are a funny guy Otto and I mean that in all the ways it can be interpreted.
- Brad Nickel
Fine. Welcome to my block list, Brad. If you ever grow up and decide that you want to have a real conversation instead of trolling, then I'll be happy to oblige you. Until then, just rant incoherently to somebody else, eh?
- Otto
LOL. See what I mean. You are funny.
- Brad Nickel
Are you kidding me about the Internet, Otto? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Note that 2 of the original nodes were UC schools--government funded public schools. With HR 3200, it's obviously going to take money to get the public option up and running, but it's supposed to be paid back in 10 years. As for the mandate, it's not ideal, but I don't see how else it will work. Otherwise,...
more...
- Victor Ganata
No, I think they are supposed to let him die.
- Brad Nickel
@Victor: No, I'm not kidding, and that link backs up every word I just said about it. As for the public option paying for itself, are you joking? Medicare is continuously in the red (average benefit per person in Medicare is $11,000 per year!) , and you think making a bigger version will somehow magically work? As for the mandate, that's an absolute deal-breaker, because it it is...
more...
- Otto
That's how government projects almost always work: they award private companies contracts to do the work. Even HR 3200 is structured that way.
- Victor Ganata
If you actually look at it, HR 3200 isn't structured like Medicare. And why is it that state laws that mandate you to carry auto insurance if you drive haven't been struck down by the Supreme Court if it's so unconstitutional? If you're totally healthy there are policies with $10,000 annual deductibles that cost like $50 a month. Obviously, the health insurance companies would rather you pay for a more expensive plan if they can get you to.
- Victor Ganata
Why in the world is a high deductible insurance plan not what you want, Otto?
- Andrew C
"Medicare is continuously in the red" - regular people who aren't on Medicare either lose benefits or coverage entirely or get outrageous rate hikes, so I'm not sure why you seem to keep claiming private insurance is any better...
- Andrew C
My goodness, a single-payer plan in BC costs ~$54/person/month and the deductible is way lower than $10K. And what I lose in 'freedom', I gain back in peace of mind and more money in my pocket overall. (and isn't the glibertarian definition of freedom money?) (Amazingly, the US actually spends as much _government_ money on health care per capita as Canada, and then of course far more in private money on top.)
- Andrew C
@Victor: a) State laws don't require you to carry auto insurance. They require you to carry auto insurance *OR* post a bond for some fixed amount, in case you hit somebody else. and b) Auto insurance is about liability (protecting other people from you), while health insurance is not (it's about about protecting you from other things, people included).
- Otto
@Andrew C: I fail to understand the question. A high deductible insurance plan is not what I want, because it is not what I want. What I want is a health insurance plan that will only cover me from, say, accident. Something that doesn't cover routine crap which I won't be needing anyway, or which I can pay for myself. In cases where there is an accident, I don't want *any* deductible,...
more...
- Otto
A high deductible plan effectively only covers you for catastrophes, because you're on your own for the first $5K or $10K, so all "routine crap" will be out of pocket.
- Andrew C
BTW, not seeing a doctor even for routine checkups is also gambling. Good luck with that.
- Andrew C
"Effectively" is not the same thing as actually. And if there was some kind of major incident, I'd still be on the hook for the $10k, which is still problematic. Basically, a high deductible means that you're getting no real coverage at all, it's not disaster coverage.
- Otto
The $10k outlay doesn't sound problematic to me; you've been investing your money, right?
- Andrew C
Andrew C: No, it's not. There is no actual need for "routine checkups" in a healthy human being. You'd free to disagree, but I'm just going to say you're wrong, and that is that, so there's no point in arguing it. And whether I can afford $10k or not is beside the point, it's still not the type of coverage I actually need or want.
- Otto
Otto - You have a valid point that insurance is designed to cover catastrophes. It turns out that preventative medicine helps to avoid catastrophes though. So it is in the best interest of insurance companies to encourage their customers to get preventative care. One way to do that is to pay fot it. Another way to do it would be to give people discounts for getting regular checkups, just like you get discounts on auto insurance for having a good driving record.
- Robert Felty
Yeah, there really is no point in arguing with you, not when you just make statements and "that is that". (Good thing cancer never starts off growing in the body for years before becoming a major problem! And that arteries don't ever get clogged before they close up entirely.)
- Andrew C
Robert: Preventative medicine does help to avoid catastrophe, however, it's also far cheaper to cover your own costs there instead of relying on insurance coverage to pay for it for you. It makes no sense for insurance to cover basic care. You don't pay for gasoline with your auto insurance, do you? The fact that insurance covers basic care means added burdens to the administrative overhead, higher premiums, etc, etc. It's a bad system overall.
- Otto
OK, so you want catastrophic coverage that starts from dollar 1 for accidents, but no insurance for routine procedures. I think this is a little ridiculous, but you're right, I don't think insurance companies offer that.
- Andrew C
Insurance companies are actively prevented from offering it, is what you meant to say. Many state laws require certain minimum levels of coverage, so the plan I want/need is unavailable to me because of over-regulation.
- Otto
Preventative care isn't gasoline. Food is the analogy to gasoline. And no, health care insurance doesn't pay for food.
- Andrew C
@Andrew C: Okay then, if you don't like that metaphor... Does your auto insurance pay for oil changes? My point is that health care should not pay for routine stuff *unless I want it to*. I do not want it to, I'm perfectly capable of dealing with routine stuff on my own.
- Otto
Otto - this is not just about you though. It is mostly about the millions of people who don't have any insurance at all right now. Also, with the oil change analogy, that is not quite right either. Standard auto insurance does not pay for vehicle failure. It pays for vehicle damage due to accidents. There probably is a small correlation between frequency of oil changes and automobile accidents, but I bet that the correlation between regular colonoscopies and advanced colon cancer is much higher.
- Robert Felty
Robert: Auto insurance does indeed pay for vehicle failure, if you have comprehensive insurance. Depends on the type of failure. On the other hand, you can get liability insurance to only pay for accidents caused by you, if you so want. You have choice of what to get. And I'd venture to bet that the correlation between colonoscopies and colon cancer is indeed quite high, but in the...
more...
- Otto
Otto - my dad gets regular colonoscopies, because he has diverticulosis, and I am not ready for him to die just yet.
- Robert Felty
Robert: He has a medical condition. I'd hardly call that "routine maintenance", sort of thing.
- Otto
Sure. The reason why health insurance companies don't offer plans like that are completely because all 50 states have strict mandates, and certainly not because the health insurance companies don't think they're profitable and would prefer that you pay for more coverage. Of course it's always the government's fault, and never the invisible hand's.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: In this case, what I said was in fact true. All 50 states and even the federal government have tons of regulations on the health insurance industry. Rates, premiums, etc.. these are all fixed by the individual states. The insurance companies have to work within a very narrow window of guidelines, sort of thing. This is one reason that so many of them have tried hard to deny...
more...
- Otto
The only regulation I see that applies to all 50 states is that insurance companies have to be solvent, capable of paying claims, and able to process claims in timely fashion. Fact is, the insurance companies have continued to make record profits despite all these regulations, so I'm not exactly going to cry them a river.
- Victor Ganata
Switzerland gets by with strict regulation... Admittedly, I doubt they have the kind of catastrophe-only plans you like, but (1) the insurers there make it work, and (2) they achieve better coverage and outcomes than the current US system does.
- Andrew C
@Brad Nickel - The right to life does not imply the right to the labor and property of other individuals. Medicine is exactly that: the products and services of tremendously skilled individuals. To claim by right their labor and products is the moral equivalent of slavery.
- Crutis
I just can't get over the rhetoric. It truly makes me laugh outloud. Slave labor. It's not worthy of further debate.
- Brad Nickel
from email
It's hardly slavery when health care professionals take oaths to serve society in exchange for the position of privilege it puts them in. And they provide care that isn't fully compensated quite frequently: it's part and parcel of many of the contracts they sign with insurance companies. Are you going to call that slavery too?
- Victor Ganata
@Victor, no I call it what it is: charity. Charity should be encouraged. @Brad, when you stop laughing maybe you can refute the right of a physician to contract with a patient without government interference. Until then the only laughable idea is the logical conclusion of your argument that physicians could be imprisoned unless they run their businesses for free or at a loss.
- Crutis
It is impossible to be a physician without government interference, since license to practice is issued by the state. I'm not sure I'd want it otherwise, personally. Anyway, once again we're straying from the topic at hand: there's nothing in HR 3200 that says you have to accept gov't issued insurance, anymore than you have to accept Medicare or Medicaid. It will still be quite possible to have a nice little boutique practice without getting a paycheck from the gov't.
- Victor Ganata
I do medical billing for a nursing home. Those of you who are in favor of a public option obviously don't understand Medicare and Medicaid. We couldn't take care of anybody if we had to rely only on what the government pays. And doctors didn't go to school for all those years and incur all that debt just to be civil servants with tons of red tape and poor compensation. There will be a huge shortage of doctors within a decade. If the bill passes the Senate, we're in for a true disaster.
- Dawn
Introducing a way to take Gmail back to basics. Way back. Now with a few clicks you can get rid of the stuff you don’t use and focus on what matters most.
- Itachi
from Bookmarklet
That seems pretty counter productive if you ask me.
- Matt Ellsworth
We have a client whose "logo" is basically their biz card stuff, complete with address. They had a quasi-meltdown last week asking for the address in *their* image to be changed. No one there seems to understand why we won't or can't change it. Silly.
- Admiral Anika
When we launched Maps, one of the best "new" features we put in that didn't get much attention was capturing the clipboard paste and replacing line breaks with commas so you could copy and paste a full address in an email into our search box (rather than typing all the components into separate form fields like MapQuest). Turned out to be a pain to do in many browsers - I spent an annoying number of hours tweaking it at the time (though it is easier in modern browsers).
- Bret Taylor
Bret: Why not just offer a multi-line text box?
- Gabe
Bret: I noticed that :). But it didn't always do that did it? I vaguely remember being frustrated that nobody did that
- Benjamin Golub
from email
Ben, what about companies that put email addresses in images in their info area instead of letting you click on a link or select the email address text? :)
- Cristo
Cristo: I'm not sure which is worse but I feel like I run into the maps issue more :)
- Benjamin Golub
Louis, Laura, thanks. And Cristo, domain registration is $9. I can't think of any good policy reason why people should be able to hold domains hostage. If it were "finefood.com" I could understand legitimate competing uses, but a domain of someone's name? No.
- Adam Lasnik
I've seen thousands of dollars, so it doesn't phase me. What would I have to pay for chriswhite.com?
- Cristo
Squatters are a pain, although once I was trying to get a domain for more than a year and then one day I checked to see if it was available and to my surprise it was so I snagged it as fast as possible.
- Nick Humphries
Cristo, I'd say you know it when you see it ;-). A pretty easy definition is someone who buys up domains with little or no interest in populating them with a website containing original and compelling content AND who intends to sell the domain to someone else for a profit.
- Adam Lasnik
So you're saying I didn't give you a good price? ;)
- Cristo
:p Anything over $9 is not a good price.
- Adam Lasnik
That sounds like something we have all around, art squatters, stock squatters, property squatters, rare car squatters, etc. I agree that investing in your name as a domain name is bit weird though. I wonder how they found it? Did you look it up on some seedy whois site? They would have to think that it's worth it to keep it... did you check on the site regularly? How long did they have it (was it even making a profit for them with $150)?
- John μller
Weird indeed, John. Over the course of 2 years, I made several e-mail and phone inquiries but didn't get a response. Just ended up recently with an e-mail out of the blue offering to sell it to me. The original squatter got it the evening after MattC introduced me in a blog post, so take of that what you will. The amusing/frustrating part: no monetization at all during those years. It featured a "surveysforhire" signup which consistently led to a page with only a mysql error.
- Adam Lasnik
Now you're just getting lazy with your scripts!
- Mike Nayyar
Lorem Ipsum is simply dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. Lorem Ipsum has been the industry's standard dummy text ever since the 1500s, when an unknown printer took a galley of type and scrambled it to make a type specimen book. It has survived not only five centuries, but also the leap into electronic typesetting, remaining essentially unchanged. It was popularised in...
more...
- LogEx
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
- LogEx
So it's since Tuesday huh? The ultimate thread. How will the thread die then? We must have a limit for that, let's say 24h without one comment.
- ElijahBailey-Zu of FF <0,
As a side note, I do have to applaud the endurance and pettiness of those of us on FriendFeed. No one on Facebook gave this status update a second look!
- Mike Nayyar
We pride ourselves in our pettiness and obsessiveness. Um, wait.
- LogEx
Remember. It's not whole Scoble likes. It's who likes Scoble.
- Akiva Moskovitz
According to FriendFeed, that's everyone. And some Twitter marketers and SEO experts.
- Mike Nayyar
Mike will get in the last word. Eventually. Everyone else is an idiot for playing his little game. Me included. :-)
- Robert Scoble
I'm not actually playing. Or, if I am, I'm playing to lose.
- Akiva Moskovitz
HAHA! You see that? Robert Scoble acknowledges I will eventually win! HAHA! FINALLY! For once in my life, I win! :) :) :) :) Unless Logical shows up...
- Mike Nayyar
Only mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
- LogEx
We're testing the limit on the number of comments.
- DGentry
Nah, the FFundercats live chat pushed that one way over the top. We are, however, testing the limits oh how sick people are getting of setting my face.
- Mike Nayyar
This thread has a lot of comments, that must mean Mike is an expert of some kind...or maybe an A-Lister. Must stalk^H^H^H^H^Hinvestigate him...
- Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah
Wow losts of comments...shame this is the last comment though.
- Nicholas James
Olympus too? Good thing Logical doesn't know any Japanese mythological figures.
- Mike Nayyar
All right, if you're going to play that way, Raijin AND Ajisukitakahikone are BOTH mad at you. And Raijin was especially unhappy because you interrupted his NOMmage of children's bellybuttons.
- LogEx
Dude, my best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Raijin put down the platter.
- LogEx
We'd be content, of course, if you (Mike) issued a public retraction of the assertion in your post, followed by allowing someone else to post the last comment in the thread ;-)
- LogEx
LE: Someone is going to go "last" again and it will continue ;)
- Nicholas James
Logical made it into a competition and now alot of people want to hold the title as the last comment on this thread. It will eventually stop when people give up and/or another one is made ;)
- Nicholas James
Gordon: No-one is going to give up. Well about 85% of the people on here already have...its just time to wait for the remaining people to give up and let me post "LAST"
- Nicholas James
Someone will eventually win this. However, since everyone else will have clicked "Hide" by then, they won't be able to tell anyone about it.
- Mistletoe Glen
You know at some point, expanding this comment will really put a strain on mortal browsers. It already has a 3 second pause to expand it.
- Mark Philpot
I wonder if at some point we will hit a soft limit and FF won't let it keep going. That or they look at this as a great high-bounds test case for the system.
- Sparky
I'm scared to expand the comment thread :)
- Roberto Bonini
There are few computers with the processing power capable of handling the comments in this thread. Except for, you know, quantum computers.
- Mike Nayyar
from iPhone
i'm afraid to click on the link to see all comments. so i'm just typing this so another guy (or gal) can read it and comment to make this comment disappear.
- Alfredo
If anyone gets these emails in their gmail and got sick and tired of them like me, just press 'm' to mute the conversation (if you have keyboard shortcuts enabled) (haha i got the last word)
- Daniel Morgan
No you just don't know I posted this.
- John D Reasor
cant the person that started this block the comments now? and thereby win.
- Morgan Haley
If you can get buddy buddy with mike and figure out his schedule, you can prevent him from stopping the comments because you'll always be able to get the last word in. We must prevail for great justice!
- Jon, the Chilled Beartato
That would be cheating, and he knows it :)
- LogEx
That's how the FriendFeed Mob rolls. :-D
- Steven Perez
from IM
you didn't disable the comments yet? you could comment and then do it and then you really would get the last word. but then again, that's cheating. and cheaters never prosper.
- Trish Haley
You're not supposed to make sense of it. It exits only as an opaque, monolithic data structure that is constantly being updated and evolving. ;)
- Tyson Key
Attempting to parse it in a manner that is not approved by FriendFeed, Inc may result in disruption of the space-time continuum, and a series of Bad Things(R) occurring.
- Tyson Key
I understand very clearly what he's saying, and I know some very annoying people who ought to heed the message, which of course they won't...
- Dennis Jernberg
Random thought. Maybe, every time someone comments that Friendfeed is dead, we can link this graphic.
- Mike Nencetti
On the other hand, no amount of evidence is sufficient for many people to change their beliefs - especially when they believe in things which can't be proven or disproven.
- Tad
from fftogo
Actually, though popularity is a poor way to arrive at truth, it is still an amazingly effective way to "win" an argument.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
It depends on the context of "win an argument". It many scenarios the number of people who believe you won the argument does determine who won the argument (if that populous is the arbiter of the contest). See what I mean?
- Micah Wittman
...Unless the argument is about how many people believe something.
- Matt Plummer
I think there is SOME relationship between truth and belief, rather than ZERO. But I agree that _argumentum ad populum_ is a fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...).
- Stephen Mack
Discussions aren't about winning, though, Jemm. They are about learning. Arguments are about winning.
- Alex Scoble
Unless some portion of the people who believe something do so from their own observation, correct?
- Kevin Pedraja
And it's possible that two people can observe the same thing and interpret it in different, even opposite ways, right?
- Kevin Pedraja
Even observation alone doesn't make something true, though.
- Victor Ganata
I'd argue that observations are more valid than mass opinion though, at least in the context of an argument (unless it was an argument over what more people believed).
- Alex Scoble
Depends on the nature of the observations, and the origin of the opinions. All generalizations are bad, even this one .
- LogEx
I want to propose some kind of meta-belief about belief in the belief that would only be true if it was believed.
- Andrew C
Heh, LogEx, it's not a generalization at all, as Stephen Mack so kindly pointed out, it's an actual logical fallacy.
- Alex Scoble
Right, but some guy on another thread, said, in effect "My observation validates my argument." Who was that, again...?
- Kevin Pedraja
I thought some German dude long ago proved that every system of logic has inconsistencies. I would say that for every argument, observation is necessary, but not sufficient to demonstrate truth.
- Victor Ganata
Andrew, yeah. Nick, is it really possible for truth and reality to be two different things? I just think that human perception of reality always fails to encompass the complete truth.
- Victor Ganata
It's just nice to see so many agree that there is such "thing" as truth.
- Gus
Much of the truth is probably inaccessible by human reasoning, but it certainly exists in an abstract sense.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: Not according to the goof-ball wing of social constructionists.
- Christopher A Carr
Saying "much of truth" is assuming that truth is quantifiable or can be portioned. :) Facts and truth are different things.
- Gus
Well, there are statements that are true and can be logically proven to be true, and statements that are true but can't be proven to be so, and I think there are more of the latter than of the former.
- Victor Ganata
As the saying goes, fifty million Frenchmen can be as wrong as one. Same goes for any other nationality. Propaganda and advertising exploit this fallacy using the "bandwagon effect".
- Dennis Jernberg
I always thought that truth was dependent on your point of view
- Davis Freeberg
Truths and facts are not subjective. What we think they mean and what we do with them is.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
"Truth" often changes over time, as do "facts." Even the most objective people are subject to the limitations of current knowledge. Many things we accept as "facts" today were either disputed or unknown in the past. The history of scientific discovery is rife with certainties that later turned out to be false.
- Kevin Pedraja
In a philosophical sense, truth is very very difficult to define. Better men and women than us have tried.
- Matt G
Kevin, I would say that the truth was always the same, just that our understanding of it was limited by our knowledge at the time. In my view, truths are absolute, so if what you thought was true turns out not to be so, it is an error in judgement and not one of the cosmos.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
I would argue that a fact is something that is beyond subjective interpretation. (i.e. The earth orbits the sun.) A truth is the accepted wisdom of a people based on the subjective interpretation of the body of knowledge at any given time. That is probably not the "official" philosophical definition...
- Kevin Pedraja
Yes, MVB just said something similar. I do not see fact and truth as frungible by the observations of man.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
The fact that people have different definitions and ideas of truth means that it is not ablsolute really. I am being pedantic though.
- Matt G
Opinions and observations are obviously not absolute. This does not mean that truth isn't absolute. Lack of understanding of a truth does not invalidate the truth.
- Alex Scoble
Truth stands outside of perception, viewpoint and subjectivity.
- Alex Scoble
I agree that is how it should be, but I think that perception is reality! In a metaphysical way. What is is what humans believe and know.
- Matt G
What reality is, is another question that we have wrestled with since time immemorial. Does reality exist outside our perceptions, viewpoint and subjectivity? Do we even have the capacity to understand reality? Given that all of our senses are subject to various filters and indirect links in to the brain can we ever truly trust that what we see, feel, touch, smell and taste is truly real? Are we in the Matrix? I don't have answers to those questions beyond my beliefs.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
Yes it is about questions and thats a good thing I think. I will go and criticise you on another thread now, cant think anymore.
- Matt G
Yeah, the search for truth often results in more questions and less truth.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
Rum and metaphysics & Friday night is a match made in heaven! Thats perception.
- Matt G
Truth is that particular universal which witnesses all states at all times.
- Gus
I would like to use my ask the audience, Alex
- Eric Logan
Then how do we establish that something is a fact, since all our perceptions and measurements are subjective?
- Victor Ganata
Not all our measurements are subjective. We can quite accurately measure the passage of time, for instance. No subjectivity needed for reading a digital clock.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
I think Einstein and others may disagree with your passage of time statement.
- Brian Sullivan
No, they wouldn't. They would not say that measurement of time is a subjective factor, what they would say is that how time passes depends greatly on the speed of the observer. But there's nothing subjective about a highly accurate clock on earth and one on a fast moving satellite. The interpretation that you make when you realize that there's significant drift between the two might be subjective, but those measurements are not.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
"There is no truth, only interpretations"
- empireofno
Alex, how do you measure ticks of a clock? It all depends on the reference frame of the observer. That's the whole point of relativity, that the passage of time depends only on the reference frame of the observer, and nothing else.
- Victor Ganata
I said digital clock, Victor. :) And our atomic clocks have a very high degree of precision and accuracy. In fact nothing else we measure in this world comes close to the precision and accuracy of our modern scientific clocks.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
Another example of something that requires no subjectivity is the periodic table of elements. It's such an amazing piece of knowledge in it's conciseness, accuracy, precision and breadth of knowledge. It truly is a marvel of our modern world.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
I'm not gainsaying the fact that inanimate objects can have identical precision and accuracy of measurement. My main point of contention is that human perception is inherently subjective. The whole premise of the time dilation experiment involves two clocks with identical mechanisms, with identical precision and accuracy. But the result of the experiment is that what I see on the same clock will be different from what you see.
- Victor Ganata
And while I agree that the table of elements is an awesome example of the power of observation, it doesn't by itself prove that electron orbitals are fact.
- Victor Ganata
In order to make the claim "It's all subjective" or "There is no truth, only interpretations" you must first assume your claim is absolutely true - unless you are lying. In other words, you cannot make a "truth claim" that denies truth without contradicting yourself even before you open your mouth.
- Gus
I didn't make that claim, so I don't have to defend any sort of contradictions.
- Alex Scoble
from IM
I'm not claiming "it's all subjective" or "there is no truth, only interpretation." I'm only claiming that our ability to comprehend truth is limited by the fact that human perception is subjective, and much of truth is inaccessible if you're only using formal logic.
- Victor Ganata
Logic is the beginning of wisdom and not the end
- Alex Scoble
from IM
*shrug* Logic is a tool. I'm not sure it necessarily has anything to do with wisdom.
- Victor Ganata
I was quoting Spock man! Spock!
- Alex Scoble
from IM
Calculus. I mean, do you KNOW how many people put their faith in it? IT'S ALL A PACK OF LIES
- Mistletoe Glen
Clearly, I don't comprehend the objective truth of Star Trek :D
- Victor Ganata
You're letting me down, Victor. :)
- Alex Scoble
from IM
I agree most facts and states in the Universe are inaccessible to humans. However, a limit on knowledge does not necessarily mean a limit on sensing truth. A child can sense truth. A child can be right about something while the rest of the world is wrong.
- Gus
The Ford or Furd pronunciation seems to split across two groups in N. America: radio announcer professionals (Ord) and everybody else (Urd).
- Micah Wittman
I also heard on the news that it's just a watered down version of the virus, and not recommended for pregnant women or people with weak immune systems. That just doesn't sound safe to me...
- Georgia Diehl
No, only the nasal spray is a live vaccine. The shots that will be given are a dead vaccine.
- Alex Scoble
I thought quite a few vaccines were done with live viruses.
- ha3rvey (Ho)^3
From the piece I just posted: "First concern: some people are afraid the new vaccine isn't safe: it hasn't been tested enough, they rushed to make it too quickly, I don't want to be a guinea pig. Wrong. This new vaccine was made the same way, with the same ingredients, at the same factories, as regular seasonal flu vaccine, which is an extremely safe vaccine. There has been no evidence...
more...
- Paul Wilcox
Georgia, almost every vaccine is a "watered down version of the virus" -- that's the whole idea behind vaccines. From that FAQ: "The FluMist nasal spray works differently. It contains a live flu virus that has been weakened to the point that it can't cause the flu. That sounds pretty scary, but millions of people have safely taken this kind of vaccine. The advantage of the nasal spray...
more...
- Stephen Mack
But would you want to be riding around downtown San Francisco in your Mustang with your German Shephard hunting deer and avoiding zombies? Just get the shot like the rest of us.
- Ken Sheppardson
There are basically two types of flu vaccine we use: killed inactivated virus and live attenuated virus. Killed inactivated virus can't actually cause disease (although some people can feel symptomatic because the immune response can make you feel sick anyway.) In theory, live attenuated virus can actually cause disease, although it's not going to be as severe as the actual virus, and it also generates a better immune response.
- Victor Ganata
But, as everyone else has already said, the H1N1 vaccine is generated by the same techniques they use for the regular seasonal flu vaccine.
- Victor Ganata
Money quote: "Jackson’s findings showed that outside of flu season, the baseline risk of death among people who did not get vaccinated was approximately 60 percent higher than among those who did, lending support to the hypothesis that on average, healthy people chose to get the vaccine, while the “frail elderly” didn’t or couldn’t. In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire...
more...
- Kevin Pedraja
I take an immune suppressing drug to treat my Crohns so my Docs always recommend a flu shot and I take them but frankly I feel like I'd get the same effect by a lighting a candle at the cathedral
- WarLord
As far as vaccines go, like if you compare it to polio or the measles, it isn't that great. Still, it be interesting to see the data in other at-risk populations, like ex-premies and kids with asthma, and adults with certain chronic diseases, populations in which the pathophysiology is a lot more specific than in the elderly. And while it might not do much for the average healthy individual, I wonder if it at least cuts down on transmission.
- Victor Ganata
The older I get, the more I love flu shots. I hope that the last time I had the flu as an adult (long time ago, now) was the last time, ever. Who can trade away weeks of productivity and engagement for that long miserable time of pain and fever followed by feeling like a jellyfish? Too awful. Already got my regular shot, and will happily go for the H1N1 shot, as well. Few more years, and I'll get to add the pneumonia shot to the mix, too. Bless you, scientists.
- Kathy Fitch
++Kathy. Science Rocks! If only the H1N1 vaccine were available in the Bay Area... *sigh*
- EricaJoy
I just avoid human contact. That seems to work pretty well.
- Cristo
Wash you're hands a lot! Look you've been fine so far right?
- orionstarr
from iPhone
Lots of Purell. No large crowds. :) I do actually want to go to parties again at some point.
- EricaJoy
from IM
Kevin, I'm inclined to agree with you. I also read something recently, but have misplaced, that the virus was mutating and that the current vaccine may not be as effective as first thought. Don't quote me on that until I can find it. I'm with WarLord. I have a weak immune system and I would just as soon take occillcoxcinum and just use sensible precautions.
- Melanie Reed
I'm with Paul Wilcox on this one. The reason why it has been invented "just one or two months ago" is because it passed the *administrative* processes very quickly (without all the usual red-tape for regulating therapeutic goods). Otherwise, the vaccine has succeeded all the usual clinical trials. At least that's what French officials (from many health organizations) are saying.
- Jérôme Flipo
It actually first appeared in 1918. The 2009 strain is different enough from the 1970s one that vaccines developed then wouldn't be effective.
- EricaJoy
from IM
we wont know since the 70s version was never distributed
- chaz2b
You don't think they tested it?
- EricaJoy
from IM
no, i think it was a hurrried endeavor like now, and when the talk of mandatory vaccination spread, ppl panicked, and it was shelved
- chaz2b
Chaz, I don't understand your article: what does it show? Otherwise, it reminds us that the 1918 flu caused 50 to 100M deaths and got probably 500M people infected. With similar ratio for today's world, that would be 200M deaths and over 2B infections :(
- Jérôme Flipo
i'm just showing that this isnt the first time we've encountered this
- chaz2b
I remember that chazz2b. And also, there are a lot of people right now who I'll bet can't even afford the $25 I saw Kroger was charging.
- Melanie Reed
thats my mnain concern about it, the cost & long term effects on ppl. and, if we encountered it in the 70s theres no reason the vaccine wasnt better tested and on hand for now, :( who among us has a small pox scar, who doesnt, and who thinks there isnt stockpiles of that vaccination sitting somewhere?
- chaz2b
Chaz, the point is that the pandemic is expected to happen this fall and we can't wait & see the long term effects if it mutes and become as deadly as the 1918 one. If you were responsible for the WHO, what would you recommend? And what would you think if most people think they would prefer to wait and see?
- Jérôme Flipo
i cant find the article i'm looking for on the fly, so i'll wing it, wash you hands, use hand sanitizer, stay away from sick ppl, stay home if sick, and cough into your shoulder for starters
- chaz2b
hey, just search "flu" on my posts, i've got quite allot of bookings about this dating back to april
- chaz2b
Point taken. The vaccine is not going to supplant universal precautions as a way to avoid the flu.
- Victor Ganata
Wouldn't worry about it, had swineflu back in July and it's one of the mildest forms of flu I've had, didn't cause me any problems with my asthma but did linger around for a few days...
- Andy Davies
It's no different then getting the regular flu shot-the only reason it is separate from the regular one is that they didn't have time to combine them. If you are at risk-get your friggin shot.
- Kelly W.
Flu can be a brutal thing, and it's unpredictable. I'm sticking my arm out there for all available shots that help protect against it, even if that protection might not be total or perfect! Hit me up, needle wielders!
- Kathy Fitch
For those of you who decide to take the flu vaccine, please check at your university (if you are still student or staff) because the CDC has made them priority and you can get it for free: http://www.iupui.edu/~prepar...
- Melanie Reed
Get the vaccine. The first night swine flu hit me, my heart started racing and I stopped breathing. I'm 22, and otherwise completely healthy. (on no medications)
- Jess Dennis
from iPhone
Regular flu shot contains 4 different flu virus strains. If H1N1 had been prepared just 2 months earlier, it would have been included in this seasons' shot (all 5 strains in 1 shot) rather than a separate shot. Hysteria over vaccinations amazes me and damages public health. The world got punked by a fraudulent study on Autism and Vaccines in the UK paid for my lawyers cruising for money and almost 2 decades later, we are still seeing drops in people vaccinating their children.
- Ray Cromwell
+1 Ray. Vaccines are safe, hands down. The autism-vaccine hysteria is so frustrating - no matter how much the link is disproved, the vaccine deniers keep pushing it (Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, etc.) They took all the thimerosal out of the vaccines which was the crux of their original argument, but they'll always find something in there that they don't like. (i assume you meant "paid...
more...
- Matt Mastracci
Their argument is vaccines are up, autism is up, and they both happened at the same time. Even though all three of those "facts" are actually untrue. (Vaccines are flat, autism is arguably down even though measurement is up, and they didn't actually happen at the same time.)
- Stephen Mack
I would also expect that with radical changes in our living (having kids at later age, working moms, more stress, sedentary lifestyle, dietary alterations like sugar intake way up) that there is bound to be some changes in early childhood diseases. We had our first child at 33, our risk of trisomy/downs syndrome was 1 in 240 at that point.
- Ray Cromwell
I find that this fear of vaccines comes from the generation that doesn't have personal memories of the sanitoriums of iron lungs - toddlers with braces and crutches and the like. The real problem with your decision not to take the flu shot is that it will probably influence the decision of those closest to you. The whole concept of "herd" theory then is out the door - because the one...
more...
- Robyn Hawk
Certainly, there's nothing like an outbreak to convince people to vaccinate. After we had the measles outbreak in San Diego, I heard vaccination rates went back up to levels where we could maintain herd immunity. Seriously, it would truly suck if polio made a come-back.
- Victor Ganata
Victor, isn't it true that some illnesses are more easily controlled through vaccines that others?
- Kevin Pedraja
Are u kidding me? They Gave You the Nobel Peace Prize? Really? Sorry to ask Mr. President, but Do you even know the definition of the word "Peace" sir? Just Look At Your Face In The Mirror And Ask Yourself how often you Really Think About Other People in other Countries? You Can't even Get Your Troops Out Of Iraq and the whole world is wondering whether you guys are just staying there 4...
more...
- +Holy Killer+
Especially when you know he is responsible for the murder of Hundreds of My innocent Brothers And Sisters… Just Because You're preoccupied with the Oil in Iran And Fear they might make an atomic bomb one of these days and pass it on to Hamas & Hizbollah to use against Israel doesn't give you the right to remain silent. You know what Mr. President? I Don't Believe in your Audacity of...
more...
- +Holy Killer+
Totally agree with Holy Killer. now that you have won the prize, you can at least start doin somethin to show you deserve it.... and that somethin better be good Sir ;-) you see... the world needs to be reassured...over and over again!
- Miss Self-Abort
Hey Mr. President! I'm not agree with Holly Killer and the others. Now would you grant me a green card for being nice and supportive? :D
- AutoBioFeeder
حاج مهدی سلام . خوبی شما؟ به انگلیسی از اوباما بپرس جریان اختراع دینامیت رو می دونه یا نه :دی
- وانا
آن که نامش بود باراک ، هست بی عرضه و با چاک
- وانا
بچهها ببینم میتونیم یه کاری کنیم که جمیعا از اینجا پرتمون کنن بیرون و بلاک حتی :دی خیلی علاقه دارم از جانب یه سیاستمدار برنده جایزه نوبل بلاک شم حتی :دی
- Miss Self-Abort