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The Next Web,News : Leaked PDF Reveals Google Voice International Plans http://thenextweb.com/2009...
nivcalderon liked this
since we all know FriendFeed is a parasite of Twitter, it would appear that if MG is right that Twitter is a ghost town. The innovation halting, however, is a ticking time bomb for Facebook.
nivcalderon, Alexander Kitingan, urara and 25 other people liked this
FriendFeed would be fine without Twitter in my opinion... I block most tweets anyway. Why do you have the impression that it is a parasite of Twitter? I am not happy about the lack of support and innovation here now though. But I'm gonna ride this boat till it grounds because it's still the best ship to be on, IMO.
- Her Lindsay-ness
Yeah. /deep voice
- Josh Haley
MG is missing the conversations in FF, which were not a parasite of Twitter. In fact, the FF faithful deliberately avoid commenting on Twitter-originated content, which I think is a significant driver of FF's slow downward spiral.
- Christian Anderson
Part of the fun is knowing that the Twitter-only readers don't read my responses, don't get the value of a threaded conversation and are yet again just blowing their bugle into their own beadspread.
- Aron Michalski
from BuddyFeed
The twitter V Friendfeed rivalry is fascinating to watch from the outside but I'll say that my engagement is far higher on twitter and the boycott of tweets does the FF no favors. Could just as easily be symbiotic but whatever ;)
- WarLord
To be clear, are these /conversations/ -truly- threaded or are we reduced to lumping another row on the bonfire of banality?
- Jay Cuthrell
Well, point taken but having to go look for replies on another page or a column of a client seems counterproductive. As it stands it doesn't matter with me as I often will post and never have any response. I guess I'm not interesting or inflammatory enough.
- Aron Michalski
from BuddyFeed
I like sharing with FF as a mechanism to push back into Twitter. I periodically stop importing Twitter into FF. I've tried FF as a dumping ground and didn't like it longer term. Facebook seems more about presenting applications with annoying graphics in front of me. Reminds me why I stopped watching TV. Facebook will likely be next.
- Jay Cuthrell
the point is, ff is no deader than twitter. neither is. where's stream splicing?
- Steve Gillmor
Steve it hurts my feelings that not only don't you tweet on twitter, but you have given up on mp3 files too! And the irony is that the TriCaster is a vestige of the Amiga...
- Michael Pinto
Many people hide Twitter in FriendFeed, and watch Twitter somewhere else.
- Louis Gray
Interesting...Scoble pretty much (unless I just misunderstood) said the reverse.He thinks FF is the ghost town and Twitter is the place to be. I didn't realize either had problems. Both seem just as active to me, but I'm just a user too.
- George Gray
posting Dare's FB comment here: Dare Obasanjo That's a bogus statement and you know it. Friendfeed was a Twitter app that lots of people used. People have moved on to other apps since the FB purchase (Brizzly?). This isn't a reflection on Twitter just a sign that people no longer treat Friendfeed as a primary destination for conversations around microcontent
- Steve Gillmor
Interesting that Dare's comment is on Facebook, not Brizzly? Once FB solves the orphan comment problem, many will move there. For now, I see little difference in FF since the acquisition except for frozen development, as MG points out. Brizzly or Seesmic or Threadsy do not provide a replacement for FF, at least for me, at least not yet. What has changed is the time FB has to bridge the...
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- Steve Gillmor
Michael I tweet on twitter thru here, just like others use Tweetie, etc. I haven't given up on mp3 but rather moved to mp4. YouTube is currently not providing an RSS feed for my stream, and the approval process for downloads seems stuck for the last few episodes. I used my Amiga and Toaster until they stopped supporting them, and the Tricaster goes well beyond the Toaster.
- Steve Gillmor
i had to remove twitter from friendfeed to prevent doubleposting on facebook. (as if there were no problems in our world)
- kosmar
kosmar don't understand your problem. I post here, it goes to Twitter, which pipes it to Facebook. However, Facebook comments to my posts are orphaned on Facebook.
- Steve Gillmor
Steve, I can't believe how many comments missed the semantics of the post - that the pointy end of the stick was jabbing at Twitter. It may be a style thing I'm already used to, I don't know. :)
- Micah Wittman
steve, well i want all ff lifestream aggregation be on facebook - but the ff app on facebook only posts "posts" on the wall, which look ugly and therefore are less conversational it seems. i would prefer to have my fb-status changed by the items the ff app pushes (like twitter app does) - best twitter to facebook seems tweetpo.st (but is handicapped by twitter follower ratio issues at...
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- kosmar
… orphaned comments are one big problem. if all would be wave (or maybe pshb), that could be fixed, i guess. - but then, if someone talks about you on the phone, that will forever be orphaned anyway (i do hope so)
- kosmar
it just seems to me having recently tried ff in more frequency that with facebook and twitter it is far easier to request contact and it feels more direct - unless i am missing a way to have this dynamic in ff
- Alexander Kitingan
Network effects suggest its wise to work with many networks, not against them. Tis a bit arbitrary and capricious for a user to 'prefer' one nascent platform over another.
- Just some guy
The most damning thing is that no one from the FriendFeed team or Facebook has joined the community here that is talking about it to tell us what's happening in the future. That, more than anything I've written or said communicates the future of FriendFeed.
H0llywoodWh0re, Sandeep Kalidindi, Shivanand Velmurugan and 117 other people liked this
I keep hoping someone will tell me I'm wrong and will post a slide deck about the future of FriendFeed. But the lack of information is confirming what I'm hearing from my sources.
- Robert Scoble
So true - nail in the coffin! :(...
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
It's Sunday.
- Anika
Anika: geeks in both companies are online and working on a Sunday and last night is NOT the first time I've been talking about the lack of direction here. Also, over the last week lots of blogs have been posting about the traffic hit that FriendFeed has already seen.
- Robert Scoble
If there really was a team working on FriendFeed you BET they would contact us on a Sunday. They used to in this old days.
- Robert Scoble
Remember, Facebook has a PR team of more than 10 people. You think they aren't watching what people are saying about Facebook nearly 24/7? Not in my experience. They are the most engaged PR team in a new company I know of.
- Robert Scoble
The reality is that this is still a very useful service, and people stay because of the functionality and the community. There is no other service out there that accomplishes what this one does. There is still nowhere else to go.
- LogEx
LogEx: that's true, but it's also true that most people will go places where there's a clear future. Unless it's just to post non-consequential things. Me? This is both my fun time (which is why I'm still here) as well as my business (I won't be betting any of my business decisions on doing stuff here because of this lack of direction which tells me that no one is really working on FriendFeed actively anymore).
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I understand the perhaps reasonable conclusions you're reaching, but breaking the silence could send too much signal to FB's competition when they'd rather send more silence which ends up, really, being noise.
- Micah Wittman
FriendFeed is like an old dying dog left out in the pasture alone; abandoned by its Master to die in the silence.
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
Most social network content is ephemeral. If people really want their stuff to have a clear future, they should own and host it on their own domains.
- LogEx
Robert, so maybe you're not giving their PR _enough_ credit. It's speculation on my part, granted.
- Micah Wittman
Micah: sorry, that dog don't run. Healthy companies signal future directions, even under NDA. It would be pretty easy to meet with a few members of the community, NDA them, and tell them what's going on. If Louis Gray came on here and told me he's under NDA and that I'm wrong then I'd feel much better. The truth is I've talked with people inside Facebook and I know what the former FriendFeed team is working on. Hint: it isn't FriendFeed.
- Robert Scoble
Logex - yup!
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
I still wish they'd make it open source or something so that people could continue to develop on it. :S
- Her Lindsay-ness
Susan, I don't think "human master - canine pooch" analogy really applies to Friendfeed team - community that's formed.
- Micah Wittman
By the way, Facebook meets with bloggers/journalists all the time to give us secret hints at what's coming. I've been to Facebook several times this year for just that. Facebook has no serious competition, by the way, so they don't make PR decisions based on what Twitter is doing.
- Robert Scoble
I guess I'm not most people then. If I find something that works, I prefer to stay put as long as it meets my needs. New things are nice, but I don't have time to constantly try out new services to see if they are better that what I am presently using. (That's why I follow people like Robert ;-)) The new shiny service would have to be significantly better than what I presenlty use to make me want to switch.
- Jeff P. Henderson
Do you have any services that offer the same functionality, are widely available, and actually have a future, Robert? How about offering a solution for once instead of just bitching?
- LANjackal
Robert. Can you reveal the information you have from your sources. Discussions where one person has information they won't reveal is frankly frustrating. If you have some inside knowledge yet continue to make statements like this and FriendFeed is dead? then it really is frustrating to the community.
- Johnny Worthington
from iPhone
If your business is posting to social media, and you think your content is "consequential" based on how long it will be around on the web ... I think you've misunderstood the current moment in social media.
- Joel Bennett
There's much less interaction than there used to be - but I still have faith in the users. This (was) is a vibrant and interesting place to be - and that's testament not only to the people that made the site, but also to the people who breathed life into it. I'll be following friendfeed still, but i'll also be following the friendfeeders i've met here. I'm not sure where the future is, but it'll be something to do with the people here. I'm sure of that.
- Iain Baker
Micah - lack of innovation and development on FF platform will cause obsolesence soon. Social web apps must innovate or die. When Facebook acquired FF, we all knew that FF would wind down due to this. Communities will migrate to current platforms that meet their needs. I am sensing a large contingent of the FF community is about to leave FF, myself included.
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
Robert, did Wolfram-Alpha indicate their future direction being a $50 iphone app? All I'm saying is Facebook's strategy may include support to FF that's not in a time-frame worth pushing through PR yet.
- Micah Wittman
My favorite thing about this whole "Facebook is dead, move on" campaign is that these guys are basically just trying to shoe you BACK to the service they talked most of you OFF of in the first place: Twitter. I'm still looking for their motivation.
- Joel Bennett
Only one thing to say. Jaiku
- Moved to Facebook
The way I see it, Robert, your constant bitching and declaring friendfeed dead is what is killing the community. While the software it runs on may be dead, the community is not. I have to separate it and explain it to you, because you don't seem to understand the difference and how being a vocal part of this community affects it. The more you put it down, the more people won't come here...
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- April Russo (app103)
Susan, social web apps need utility/affection by a set of users. If cutting/bleeding edge aficionados is the particular user set in question, then what you said generally holds true. But it's not the general case unless a true replacement (in this case for FF) is available.
- Micah Wittman
I don't think he's killing the community, he's just killing the community's participation with him.
- Alex Scoble
Robert. Can you advise the information you have from your sources?
- Johnny Worthington
I am stuck in the middle on this one...
- Allen Stern
Fair point, Alex. I think this issue needs the two Scobles to put their heads together and clear the air.
- Micah Wittman
Naw...I like friendfeed. I'm not going anywhere as long as my friends are here.
- Alex Scoble
Amen, Alex.
- Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)
Is Friendfeed dying ( if it is) because of it being purchase by Facebook, or by members reaction to that purchase? Did people forecast the death of Friendfeed and then leave, therefore creating the exact scenario they predicted.
- Kim Landwehr
Robert, doesn't this put the denouement on the donkey for all those who thought it too sharp a call to say what was going on in that sale and before it? It seemed fairly clear to me what had been going on mainly from seeing the actions at the time of the sale and "doing the math". As Aristotle said: "Plot is character"
- Melanie Reed
Some times the lab rats do understand and stop sniffing for the cheese, looking up at the lab coats above them with a knowing twitch of the whisker.
- Melanie Reed
Can FriendFeed be another StumbleUpon two years later? http://stumbleupon.com/sublog... EDIT: "I don't want it happen though. I hope FFers let me entertain us again on FB" (excerpted from http://ff.im/6pO0a in Japanese)
- NaHi
from f2p
I'm more of a social media *consumer* than I am a participant. From a consumer's point of view, FF is more interesting than its competitors. A nice place to hang out, enjoy, learn, and sometimes discuss. Less guesswork is involved in deciding whether to click through to sources. From a consumer's perspective, as long as it remains interesting there won't be a reason to move on.
- howard shippin
from BuddyFeed
Johnny: yes, my sources inside Facebook tell me that the FriendFeed team has been split apart and is working on Facebook items only. So far no one has refuted that.
- Robert Scoble
April: you can believe that I'm personally killing the community but that really is giving me far more power than I actually have. The community has dramatically changed in the last two months. The alpha geeks I follow and that I build my business around have largely left. Everytime I meet geeks at conferences they tell me they are not spending as much time on FriendFeed as they did before the sale to Facebook and that the lack of direction from the team is largely responsible for that.
- Robert Scoble
And, April, if you read my blog post you'll see that I believe a new community is already moving in here -- one that doesn't care if the technology will see new features.
- Robert Scoble
I'm not on FB that much, but do people from their team actually get involved on the site? Is that even possible, with the privacy controls? I said it on another thread: you can't serve two masters. If FB is paying the bills now, that's probably where erstwhile FF staff must spend their time.
- .LAG liked that
I agree with Robert here
- Matthew DeVries
.LAG: yes. I have dozens of Facebook employees as friends over on Facebook and they do engage all over the place.
- Robert Scoble
.LAG: the head of PR at Facebook, Brandee Barker, even has a Twitter account: http://twitter.com/faceboo... and there are TONS of employees who hang out on both Twitter and Facebook like Dave Morin, head of Facebook's platform team.
- Robert Scoble
Kim: I did one of the first interviews with the FriendFeed and Facebook teams after the sale was announced (within the first hour) and even then you could tell that Facebook had no plans for FriendFeed's technology and mostly wanted the team. The fact that Gary Burd (who ran the Google Talk team and is VERY influential in Seattle technology) has already left speaks VOLUMES to what is going on behind the scenes. Guys like Gary don't leave if they are having fun and making a huge impact.
- Robert Scoble
April - Robert actions and Roberts threads have nothing to do with the death of Friendfeed. Robert's threads still have traffic and activity. The place where I see, where Robert would probably not ever be able to appreciate is the fact that there was once a time when a postless thread was impossible. Every single one of my threads had traffic. Even if it was one or 2 silly posts of...
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- Matthew DeVries
http://friendfeed.com/bwana that right there.....that is the saddest thing. That was once what I considered to be the most important account on Friendfeed.
- Matthew DeVries
I'm a new user. i quite enjoy what's here, at the moment. I can't say that I'm a sophisticated social networker, but I have already grown to trust many of the folk i've met here. Like someone earlier in the thread said, if enough of my friends on friendfeed decide to move on, i'll likely follow. i don't suspect that that kind of 'distant early warning' would arrive via Facebook.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
My experience on FF does not hinge on Robert. The community of thinkers and feelers will find a way to interact, here or somewhere else. By the way, some of us are left out of the loop 99% of the time when it comes to knowing what's next. Welcome to the club.
- Aron Michalski
from BuddyFeed
Matthew: you aren't the only one to notice this or tell me the same thing. Many won't point it out in public, either, because they just don't want to piss off those who are still here. Me? Being public with what I'm hearing, experiencing, deciding, etc is the way I deal with life and the conversations with others tend to either confirm the direction I'm aiming in, or they pull me back from the brink. So far not much has changed my opinion, and, in fact, has augmented it.
- Robert Scoble
Aron: Twitter is about to turn on lists. That's one feature FriendFeed had over it. Within six weeks they will turn on a new retweet feature that looks more like FriendFeed's "likes" than it looks like RTs, so that's another feature. Twitter is working on real time search and I'd expect them to turn on a much better search within six months. So, what's left? Comments. Those are added on...
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- Robert Scoble
I still get a lot of activity on my posts but it's not what it used to be. The big thing I've noticed is a rarely get new subscriptions yet I'm still quite active here. Going from getting several or more a day to one or so a week is a big indicator to me of FriendFeed's decline.
- Akiva Moskovitz
It's time to open source FF. Start the chant.
- Todd Hoff
is it possible that things are levelling off, naturally? can growth, here or elsewhere, expect to be exponential forever and ever?
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Brent, you bring up a salient point. For some, the constant movement is what they are really excited about more than the community. This is not to say that these ones don't enjoy the community, they obviously do. But they enjoy the "building" up of it. It's like getting trapped in the "I always want to be falling in love" feeling and never, as you bring out, get to and enjoy the natural leveling off. Some do enjoy that part. And there may be enough of them to keep this version of FF going.
- Melanie Reed
There's a problem with stasis, though. For one, it almost always leads to entropy and, for two, it means that there isn't an influx of new blood. It's the same people doing the same things having the same conversations. It decreases how dynamic the experience is. It becomes stale.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I'm not saying that FriendFeed's hit that stage yet but it most likely will. I'm still having a great time here but it's not nearly as exciting as it used to be and, no, that's just because the honeymoon period's worn off.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, I respectfully disagree. It's like exploring a new path in an old garden. This is the place most people are either afraid to traverse or have not developed the discipline to want to go there. There are always new things yet to be discovered in the same relationship. We just get "ants in our pants" not wanting to sit still long enough to discover it. ;)
- Melanie Reed
Melanie, oh yeah? Well, you're WRONG! In all seriousness, I think it's two sides of the same coin. And I want both. It's why I hang out both on Twitter and FriendFeed. I get different (but good!) experiences out of both.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Matt - Yup, I've experienced the same thing as I have over 2,500 FF followers and now see a very low user engagement; whereas, in the past, I could get a ton of likes / comments on any topic. Now I see only crickets!! FF is dying.
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
Akiva, Its more about learning to "exult in monotony". ;)
- Melanie Reed
Hah. Sorry, Melanie, but when it comes to social networking, I'm definitely polyamorous.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, I've just come to appreciate the wisdom of Solomon: that there is "nothing new under the sun". lol Or as Shania Twain would say: "That don't impress me much."
- Melanie Reed
With Friend Feed I can go to the site, and watch in realtime all the action going on with those I follow. I see Likes, Comments, Pictures, Nicely grouped and can type more than 140 characters if I want to. With Twitter, it's all a kludge to add on this and that and this client or that client and I just don't see how Twitter compares technically to FriendFeed at this time. Twitter was...
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- Keith Rowland
Yeah, the 140 character cap is the most baffleing thing that makes me wish FF wouldn't die and Twitter become king. I want more than 140 characters, I want it in real time, I want it in conversation, and I want it 100% free of super poke and my highschool neighbor's grand mother following me.
- Matthew DeVries
It is the weekend and some people sleep :) At least that's how I'm looking at it ..for now.. plus I'm begging: Friendfeed please don't go away.. - http://new2me.posterous.com/friendf... (via http://ff.im/a57K2).
- Chris Myles
FF activity is like the Bears defense tonight... far less vibrant than you'd expect
- Jay Cuthrell
from BuddyFeed
sorry 2 say that Scoble friendfeed is slowing down 2 :(
- polou/indigo_bow
Not dead yet. Thank goodness.
- Aron Michalski
The truth is we know nothing more than a few weeks after the sale when the team commented that they will keep it going as long as they could. We all knew development would stop. We all knew it would run on auto-pilot. No one here seriously expects FriendFeed to continue forever but a lot of us aren't pulling the plug and walking out the door. Interaction is down, to be expected, and I'm...
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- Johnny Worthington
well-put, Johnny.
- T. Brent, technopeasant
Agree Johnny..
- Chris Myles
Here we go again...
- BLOGBloke
OH MY DEAR LORD! THE FRIENDFEED TEAM ISN'T INSTANTLY AVAILABLE ON A SUNDAY AFTERNOON TO TALK ABOUT THEIR STRATEGIC PLANS! ALERT THE MEDIA!
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
Glen, the last 13 words took your statement from accurate to inaccurate
- Matthew DeVries
What Twitter client are you using these hours anyway Robert? Have you checked out CoTweet?
- Matthew DeVries
Regardless of the Friendfeed team's lack of comments, the volume on some threads like this does prove to me that life still exists on FF. I will agree that the volume is lighter but nothing has officially shown me that Friendfeed is dead, only bogus news articles trying to create news...
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Look at FriendFeed. Look at Facebook. Which one needs improvement? Of course the team isn't working on FriendFeed now. But they're still using it, and would be upset if Facebook killed it. Facebook values them. They won't kill FriendFeed.
- Bruce Lewis
strictly speaking, since the time of the sale facefeed staff have added new features http://friendfeed.com/friendf... posted news about technology development http://friendfeed.com/friendf... and responded to user support http://friendfeed.com/friendf...
- Mike Chelen
Mathew: I use Tweetie on iPhone for almost all Twitter tasks.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
You also started it at 3am in the morning on Sunday - kind of a bad time to get their attention, don't you think?
- Jesse Stay
Social Media Epertistes are vampires, they'd shrivel up and die otherwise after a night full of exsanguination orrrrrrrrr we could just fwd. this to the Feedback Room [done]
- sofarsoShawn
Great, so its over? I wonder how many times the community is going to be willing to put themselves into something like this before we realise that all this stuff needs to move over to an open platform. I have a few great great communities die because of financially/politically motivated owners. shitty.
- Jason Strachan
Which reminds me: Anybody know how the OpenFF project's going?
- Dennis Jernberg
We had this discussion about the future of Friendfeed back when the buyout was first confirmed. We assume it's treading water, and maybe some day we'll be surprised by an update.
- Vezquex: God of FF
Shawn, well done
- Jesse Stay
Vezquex, yeah - how many more times do you predict this will come up again? FriendFeed just gave an excuse for people to say something's dead. I predict this will happen many more times until it is actually dead or they start really vamping it up again. No one in this thread has the authority to know that.
- Jesse Stay
Maybe we will just roll our own waves.
- Sean Oliver
Re: Shawn http://bit.ly/g7zYA
- Matthew DeVries
Let's stop comparing elephants to fleas. Even if having 10 PR people allowed Facebook to be the "most engaged" new company, adjusted against the number of inquiries originating from members, 10 people cannot support that volume. With 250 million (or how ever many more) members, the right level of PR staffing would have to be closer to 250 (one PR person per 1 million members) to get...
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- Rich Reader
Wow, I hadn't realized Bwana had completely left. Did he blog about it?
- Laura Norvig
I'm not sure if he blogged about it, Laura, but he certainly did talk about it...I'm surprised that he made his feed go dark as abruptly as he did.
- Alex Scoble
Laura, Alex, yeah that abruptness took me by surprise too. My iphone shed a pixelated tear.
- Micah Wittman
screw this thread.... Robert Scoble crushed my friendfeed fantasy... and you people are still talking about friendfeed being dead, Now let the damn thing die quietly thank you......
- Cjay
Start using Hide, Cjay
- Alex Scoble
All Hail FriendFeed. FriendFeed is dead. Long Live FriendFeed. I like it better than wave, twitter, fb. If anything the signal to noise ratio has improved.
- Robert Higgins
Paul's Response on Read Write http://thenextweb.com/2009...
- Robert Higgins
You guys do know that Paul did post about this,right ?? Rendering Roberts shock a moot point.
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
Paul Buchheit speaks up! http://ff.im/a8LNU
- Susan Beebe
Every time I see this, I keep thinking that "damning" is entirely too strong of a word...
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
The walrus replied
- Steve Gillmor
from iPhone
Roberto (and the walrus): oh, really? Did you READ what Paul wrote? How does that differ from anything I've said?
- Robert Scoble
Robert, you said FriendFeed is dead and Paul said it isn't. Keep in mind you're using said "dead" site to respond.
- Allred
Twitter is undernourished FF is chronically ill. FB is fat with clogged arteries and 10% of its users have disabled accounts including me.
- Darrell Hudson
Twitter Lists; Limitations, bugs, impact, and brilliance http://scobleizer.posterous.com/twitter...
nivcalderon, Naor Mark, Jannifer @wordsforliving and Johni Fisher liked this
Flickr Nukes DMU - http://thomashawk.com/2009...
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nivcalderon, Ricardo Liberato, Holger Eilhard and 42 other people liked this
very disturbing ,,,, just as I was looking at the Mashable Site ,, on there 4 Billion images ,,
- johnpiercy
Flickr is such a disappointment. The only thing more disappointing is that Zooomr never quite made it over that last hump that could have made it a real alternative.
- Jeremy Brooks
talking about the group deletion in the FF DMU group right now: http://friendfeed.com/dmu
- Thomas Hawk
care to explain for those unfamiliar with DMU what it was all about?
- Michael Bravo
"Rather than delete a single offending thread or offer any type of alternative arrangement flickr simply nuked the group." -- Maybe Yahoo! should just nuke Flickr entirely.
- Cristo
"Flickr just nuked deleteme uncensored. A group with a long tradition on Flickr with over 5,000 posts and 3,000 members all gone, instantly. Flickr objected to discussions in the group which they said violated Flickr’s TOS. This was done without warning. Rather than delete a single offending thread or offer any type of alternative arrangement flickr simply nuked the group. It is clear...
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- RAPatton
from iPhone
Micheal DMU was a very popular group on flickr. It was an uncensored forum that had lasted about 4 years. Many of us spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in there. It had a rich and unique history. It was one of the most active forums on flickr and they just nuked it out of existence. It was also one of the few uncensored forums on flickr. It's a sad day actually.
- Thomas Hawk
wow that's disturbing
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
When will people figure out that Flickr (Yahoo) does not want your business. Someone needs to create an alternative.
- CW™
I was one of the founders of the group and shared admin responsibility with three others. There was no warning given to me. Poof. One minute it was completely gone, obliterated, followed by a notification that it had been deleted and the following note as explanation from Heather Champ: "Unfortunately, recent events in DMU have escalated to such a point that we can no longer host your...
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- Thomas Hawk
@jeremybrooks "... The only thing more disappointing is that Zooomr never quite made it over that last hump that could have made it a real alternative ..." Disagree. Zoomer is always going to be an alternative when flickr keeps deleting without transparency and without a restore. I'm just kicking myself I didn't consider zoomer when I added flickr redundancy at smumug.
- Peter Renshaw
and just like that flickr locks down the thread in the help forum complaining about the group being nuked. http://www.flickr.com/help...
- Thomas Hawk
@Peter: Don't get me wrong. I love Zooomr -- I post everything there as well as to Flickr. It showed so much promise at first though, and some of the features have not been developed fully. They still have some features (like Portals and SmartSets) that Flickr does not have.
- Jeremy Brooks
Heather Champ's (the community manager who deleted the group at Flickr) tweet within minutes of the time she nuked the group: "I hate your freedom."
- Thomas Hawk
I'm going to side with Yahoo! on this one. It's wrong for them to censor photos or hide them without the user knowing. This is a different issue, though. They have every right to delete user forums that violate their TOS. I don't blame them for not wanting to host a forum for flame wars, threats, and personal recriminations.
- Luke Ibis
the problem is though Luke anything can be deemed to violate Flickrs TOS/CG. You can have your account deleted or your forum deleted on Flickr for being "that guy."
- Thomas Hawk
What kind of posts or comments led to breaking the ToS? Just curious.
- Sally Church
killing over 5,000 conversations in a forum with over 3,000 members, many hours long, built by people who put an *enormous* amount of energy into them of which 99.9% had no violations of any measure is overkill of massive proportion. Flickr could have easily killed any individual thread that they felt violated their TOS. This, compounded with the fact that there was no warning given nor any previous violation on the part of this group is a massive overreaction on Flickr's part.
- Thomas Hawk
I'm not sure 100% Sally, I suspect that it was the post where a user made threats of violence yesterday in the group. Still Flickr could have warned or deleted that user account if that was the issue, they did not need to nuke 5,000 conversations permanently and irrevocably. Many of these threads contained specific information about photography, gear, cameras, etc.
- Thomas Hawk
Perhaps you should have separated the 'specific information about photography, gear, cameras, etc.' from the vulgar personal attacks on Flickr staff. Then Flickr could have removed the one while leaving the other alone.
- Pat Rice
P.S. I look forward to the day when Mr. Hawk starts his own online photography service. I will sign up for a free account & make a vulgar nuisance of myself. If he tries to stop me, I will scream CENSORSHIP!
- Pat Rice
Pat there were not vulgar personal attacks on flickr staff in dmu. Why would you say that? There are a few in the new dmu now (none by me) but that's because people are really pissed off about having their group nuked after investing thousands of hours in it. Why would you say that there were vulgar personal attacks on Flickr staff in dmu before flickr nuked it. That's simply not true.
- Thomas Hawk
The first comment on http://friendfeed.com/dmu... appears to contain a warning from Heather to Thomas Hawk about vulgar personal attacks on Flickr staff made in the group: "Additionally, if you're all having a good time bashing the crap out of each other, fine. If at any time, any member of Flickr complains about actions there, we will review the activity and if necessary terminate the group. I hope our thoughts are clear." Perhaps I misread it.
- Pat Rice
Pat that email was sent *after* the group was already nuked. Obviously people who put hundreds of hours and an incredible amount of energy and emotion into an online group were upset when flickr nuked it. They didn't have to nuke it. They could have, for instance, locked it down and removed whatever offended them at least leaving a rich archive that was largely inoffensive. That link...
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- Thomas Hawk
It would be pertinent, at this point, to ask why, exactly, do you still bother with flickr at all? They seem to be your major source of aggravation, lately. I'd have quit on them long ago, or at least I would not have made them such an important part of my online presence.
- Ade
I find it a bit perplexing that people think nuking based on 'terms of service' is ok without warning or wonder why you bother with the service. I think it's part of the essence of community not to simply move every time some idiot gets into power (think about how many Mayors or jerky bureaucrats you've met in your life)...and in stead fight to try and ensure a healthy community....
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- leigh himel
I would comment on this, but I don't want Flickr to nuke me.
- James Myatt
WTF?
- Tyson Key
It's not clear what "There were no vulgar attacks on flickr staff ever in DMU at any time prior to the warning you link to now given in regards to a new group that's ben set up." means, unless it's an admission that Flickr warned you to play nicely, but you didn't, so Flickr deleted your group.
- Pat Rice
Also: last I checked, the First Amendment doesn't say, "Thomas Hawk & friends are allowed to post whatever pictures they want on Flickr, and say anything they want in Flickr groups and in the Flickr help forum, without regard for the Flickr TOS or even common courtesy." If you find the Flickr TOS burdensome, start your own service.
- Pat Rice
@Pat: did somebody mention the First Amendment (before you did?) How exactly does that fit here, in light of actions taken by a private party?
- Anthony Citrano
Pat indeed. Nobody is saying this is a first amendment issue except you. I've never said that flickr is not within their legal rights to delete whatever content they want. I've said it's bad business practice, reflects poorly on Yahoo and is in direct opposition to their current multi-million dollar marketing campaign. This is not a first amendment issue at all. Given that you know...
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- Thomas Hawk
and how is my saying that there were never any vulgar attacks on flickr staff an admission that flickr warned us to "play nicely" prior to nuking the group? There was never any warning from Flickr to the admins of the group that was nuked regarding it's deletion of any kind before Flickr nuked it. That's a fact. After the group was nuked, a new group sprung up (that I'm not a member of)...
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- Thomas Hawk
Thomas Hawk is in the habit of using the word 'censorship' whenever Flickr enforces its TOS. I just thought I'd pre-empt him this time. It would be helpful if Mr. Hawk posted an accurate timeline of all communication between Flickr staff and the admins of the group in question, up to the time the group was deleted. Given his history of making a great hairy nuisance of himself to Flickr staff, his silence suggests the current tempest is just more of the same.
- Pat Rice
Pat the *only* communication between Flickr staff and the admins of the group prior to the group deletion is below. The group was completely destroyed within seconds of receiving this email: "Hi Thomas Hawk, ** This warning is being sent to all admins of DMU ** In joining Flickr, you agreed to abide by the Yahoo! Terms of Service and Community Guidelines. Specifically, you must not...
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- Thomas Hawk
Forgive me for just making the connection now, but this is obviously a direct result of the Thomas <-> James swordfight, no?
- Anthony Citrano
I believe it is Anthony. I was never informed by Flickr as to the exact issue that they had with the thread though.
- Thomas Hawk
Why did you opt to leave that out of this story? Not picking on you, but now that I'm aware of that situation, the context it adds seems conspicuous by its absence.
- Anthony Citrano
Anthony, first off, I'm not even sure that's what it is. The email nuking the group was vague and ambiguous. They've never communicated with me the reason. I'm speculating on my part. It would assume that it was related to that. But I'm not really sure "why" the group was deleted is so relevant. If you have two people who have an issue (one of whom is making threats of violence which is...
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- Thomas Hawk
Thomas, I know how hard (impossible) it is to see something objectively when you're right in the middle of it - but from where I sit, here on the outside, there's no real doubt that your and James’ horseplay was the catalyst for the group deletion. You said it's not relevant, and perhaps you're right, but to me it seems like an important part of the story.
- Anthony Citrano
It's certainly been reported many places Anthony, including my own blog prior to the group being nuked and as linked to in the help forum where I'm still banned in my post yesterday. It certainly was not omitted purposely. This post here is actually very short and was written quickly after the group was nuked. I followed up with a more thoughtful post yesterday. But sorry if you felt all of those details should have been in this story as well. Happy to discuss any of them.
- Thomas Hawk
I would still maintain though that a skirmish between two members of a group (no matter *what* the skirmish) ought not to result in a group of 3,000 members being nuked without warning. If anything delete the accounts of the two individuals. Don't punish 2,998 members for the actions of 2. That said there were a lot of ways that Flickr could have handled this better including locking the group down but maintaining the 99.9% of the threads which were in no way considered offensive.
- Thomas Hawk
I didn't think it omitted maliciously; was just curious the logic behind the omission. But you've answered. To the second point, people need to separate two things: A: the action (the monkeybusiness b/w you two) and B: the reaction (by flickR). I know they are inextricably tied, but each do deserve discussion. The 2998 members were “punished” by both A and B. Just because B is idiotic...
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- Anthony Citrano
Flickr's behaviour was a bit abrupt, but DMU being deleted was an accident waiting to happen – the admins were never really entitled to host an 'uncensored' group, as they were always subject to Flickr's rules. And although the deletion related to one incident, DMU always had a very antagonistic atmosphere that had the propensity to give rise to abusive discourse. Also, this isn't the same as deleting someone's work; the only thing lost is old discussions that almost no one would have read again anyway.
- sally white
Oh Sally, you are so wrong. You were not a part of that community. We had a nine page thread called listen to DJ Mo. It was full of great music links. It was frequently accessed, it may sound stupid but we had a significant thread of gifs that we were all collecting together. Mo's stupid photography questions was a frequently accessed thread full of great photo advice for people,...
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- Thomas Hawk
my6sense: Rockin review from Sascha.com: "the folks doing good work deserve recognition too" Thanks a million! http://bit.ly/2fcEyD - http://twitter.com/my6sens...
nivcalderon, Barak Hachamov and Ilana Gurman liked this
RT @TechCrunch BloggersBase Is A Discovery Engine For The Blogosphere http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... #Israelistatup
nivcalderon liked this
The RSA security keys of @tannery how many do you have?
Roberto Bonini, Sercan Virlan, Oğuzcan Şahin and 5 other people liked this
Chris Tannery is on the security team at Rackspace and he has three RSA Tokens. One for bank. One for ETrade. One for Rackspace. How many do you have?
- Robert Scoble
from email
None :-(
- Jalada
1 - for PayPal
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
i wish chris and the others would put their keys down and reply to my email about why IT was hacked :) they dont need the keys to send an email ha
- Allen Stern
0 - I should have 1 though, to get remote access from home to work.. Just not turned up yet, been waiting a few years now *sigh*
- Simon Wicks
0
- Spencer
Shouldn't this be secret information? Seems like this kind of information, while likable, would place Mr. Tannery at risk.
- τorƍue
Allen: my site was hacked too. Grrr. They deleted two months of my blog.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Robert, RSA has their own iPhone app. You should just get that set up for you.
- John Wang
I used to have a couple. Now I don't. I'm happier for it.
- Otto
I have a couple of those pets.... one for each bank I had accounts with.
- Marco ILLESCAS
Zero. Feeling ashamed.
- MiniMage TKDteacher of FF
2. 1 for $client and 1 for $employer
- Murray Barton
Bank (pocket-calculator-size) and employer.
- Paul Robertson
0. Should I get some? Anyone have a spare? 8-) Do y'all have them for personal bank accounts, or for business/special bank accounts?
- Shane Curcuru
4 - but only using two actively
- Fini Alring
TechAviv meetup, why do VC's like Nokia E-71, i thought iPhone holds all the innovation.
nivcalderon liked this
RT @ispot-IL לגזור ולשמור: 10 טיפים חשובים לחיסכון בסוללה באייפון http://ispot.co.il/...
nivcalderon liked this
מייקרוסופט שלחו אלי בקשה להשתתף בסקר הלקוחות שלהם. מגניב! מעניין אם מקבלים צ'ופר קטן בדמות disk on key כתמורה על ההשתתפות בסקר שלהם.
nivcalderon liked this
RT @amnon_meranda: רון בן ישי חושף: הטיפ שגרם לרוסיה 'לחטוף' ספינה מעצמה http://www.ynet.co.il/article...
Amit and nivcalderon liked this
RT @iamnews: A podcast about citizen journalists, bloggers & "tweeters": First World vs Authoritarian Regimes http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldse... (via @BBC)
nivcalderon liked this
kenradio: Yahoo Messenger 10 beta: A legitimate Skype rival - http://bit.ly/tOF5U - http://twitter.com/kenradi...
nivcalderon liked this
New Statesman - The next 100 years - http://www.newstatesman.com/north-a...
Iván Abrego, William Thomas, Mark Dodson and 2 other people liked this
"Japan and Turkey form an alliance to attack the US. Poland becomes America’s closest ally. Mexico makes a bid for global supremacy, and a third world war takes place in space. Sounds strange? It could all happen. . ."
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
from Bookmarklet
App Shopper: TiltShift Generator (Photography) - http://appshopper.com/photogr...
hiroshimo, Her Lindsay-ness, Daniel Rowley and 10 other people liked this
"SPECIAL RELEASE PRICE is $0.99 for two weeks, after it will be increased to $2.99."
- browneyes
from Bookmarklet
Any idea how this compares to the other TiltShift apps (e.g., the one by Michael Krause)?
- Herb Hernandez
Xmarks Comes to Chrome, Syncs Bookmarks with All Your Browsers - Xmarks - http://lifehacker.com/5339465/
Charles LePage, sG, MiniMage TKDteacher of FF and 14 other people liked this
This is awesome, now I can have my bookmarks synced between Firefox, Safari and Chrome (for Windows) without having to jump through hoops!
- Mathew™ one of a kind
from Bookmarklet
This is a great service:)
- Rob Cairns
sweet!
- Spencer
Have you tried it Mathew? what about tags on Firefox? I mean, how are tags being ported to Chrome? or maybe not al all.. : (
- 'Like' robot (frɐnc)
I like password-sync more.
- yezi
I don't know how tags work. I don't use tags with my bookmarks, I still do the old fashion folders system.
- Mathew™ one of a kind
I use tags bc it eliminates the clutter and makes search easier (i.e. tag1+tag2+keyword -tag3)
- 'Like' robot (frɐnc)
Great book by @chrisbrogan:
Meryn Stol, K.D., Adam Singer and 25 other people liked this
I've now read it and everyone who wants to change the world should read "Trust Agents: using the web to build influence, improve reputation, and earn trust" by Chris Brogan and Julien Smith.
- Robert Scoble
from email
Still don't like that title.
- WorldofHiglet
Excellent book - devoured it! Although - got to agree - the cover a little communist feeling. Took it off on the plane just to feel, well, less sickle and hammer.
- Mary McKnight
Couldn't put it down last night even though I was on a 24 hour day
- Dave Ferrick
I really enjoyed Chris & Julien's talk. As Chris said initially, the book is something that any one of us would've written and I agree. It was just really nice to hear echoed back to me in a far more more well thought out way the things I've been realizing myself since launching Misanthropic Geek.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Robert, Thanks for the hype. Why don't you write a decent book review instead? I'd love to read your in-depth synopsis.
- William Mougayar
from iPhone
William: it is a freaking great book. You can pay me $40 for a good review. Geesh.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Hmm, Robert: don't tell everyone your price - that's not good policy :)
- WorldofHiglet
You read it?
- Eric
This is an excellent book. However, trust is a journey into the unknown and we all know that the unknown is at the root of the fear emotion. If this concept is to take hold, some of what was valued in the previous century, information and exclusivity, will be devalued in this century, If we don't, much of this social media era will be a waste of time. Here is the first of a two part interview with Brogan on Trust Agents http://bit.ly/8pzOm enjoy.
- Albert Maruggi
So I Google 'book review trust agents Chris brogan' and the 11th result is this very post (boomerang!). I was trying to find a real review by an unbiased non-friend of Brogan that I shld trust more than friends of Brogan.
- William Mougayar
from iPhone
I can't wait to get my copy of the "Trust Agents" book. Chris Brogan is one of the smartest guys writing today!
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
William everyone is a friend of Brogan's and that is why he is a trust agent and why you are having trouble.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Naturally, I'll have to track down this book and read it.
- Dennis Jernberg
What's a book?
- Cliff Gerrish
from iPhone
Cliff: a thing you read on a Kindle.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
or on your iPhone (Kindle app)
- Susan Beebe
from BuddyFeed
Just clicked the Amazon "Tell the publisher!" "I'd like to read this book on Kindle" link. Actually yes, on iPhone Kindle.
- Peter Thistle
Robert - But the hype doesn't serve a friend. That was my point. Substantial statements go further than "read this, it's great". I was looking for 1 or 2 nuggets. "...will change the world" is a hype statement,- but I get your enthusiasm.
- William Mougayar
from iPhone
William: it has tons of stories and ideas of how you can gain trust, credibility, etc and use that to improve your business.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
bought one yesterday - got it signed! Whoot!
- Dan Morrill AKA Techwag
I'm reading mine on the plane ride home.
- Jim Turner
After all these reviews I'm really looking forward to reading this.
- Daniel W. Crompton
I'm looking forward to reading this too, ASAP.
- Michelle Nicol
twitter need to have "goodbye notes" lets say i want to unfollow someone it will be nice to send them goodbye note smilingggg
nivcalderon liked this
Twitter_Tips: 7 reasons Twitter is essential for every Business: http://bit.ly/daj1i --Share: http://bit.ly/SPZZX - http://twitter.com/Twitter...
Mark Alves, nivcalderon and Mitch Baldwin liked this
ChrisSaad: FriendFeed is over, Time for a blogging Revolution - Who's with me? http://bit.ly/ihInh
cc: @stevegillmor @scobleizer - http://twitter.com/ChrisSa...
Nils Reinton, nivcalderon, Akiva Moskovitz and 4 other people liked this
For Twitter, Sharing Data With Google Would Be Suicide - Guest author Edo Segal (@edosegal) has launched and sold s... http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
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