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Nova Spivack › Comments
Wow, is Google going real time already? The conversation I just started is already in Google: http://www.google.com/search...
Rod Nicolson, Jay Neff, Peggy Dolane and 55 other people liked this
I heard people comment on all the Twitter & FriendFeed real-timeness, pointing out that Google is fast too. But maybe they are just crawling FF and Twitter to look real-time?
- Ruud van Wijngaarden
Ruud: friendfeed items get ranked higher in Google. I've seen that happen a LOT.
- Robert Scoble
I noticed the same thing on Mahalo Answers. In less then half an hour the question shows up in Googles search results. Google is just crawling really fast.
- arjo
Google was really slow earlier today with the Jay Bennett/Wilco news. Couldn't find anything on Google, it was all over Twitter for hours before it showed in Google.
- Karoli
Maybe the FF structure or API (and from Mahalo and the likes) makes it extremely easy to index for Google, so Google is actually preying on the smart systems of others to be sort-of-real-time?
- Ruud van Wijngaarden
They've gotta do something :)
- Mike van der Eerden
Well, THIS conversation isn't in Google...yet...
- John E. Bredehoft
Actually this conversation is on Google already. If you search for "Wow, is Google going real time already?" it's there.
- Charbax
Since Friendfeed provides a real-time API, why wouldn't Google basically store a searchable copy of all of Friendfeed on their index?
- Charbax
Charbax: not to mention that friendfeed is more SEO friendly. The URLs here have keywords in them. I'd expect that from a team of Google superstars.
- Robert Scoble
Do you really think Google's entire search engine can transform into real-time...I think it would take at least 3 years, if at all. Friendfeed engine is very friendly but substantially smaller, with only minor queries compared to the big ones. Google might improve its integration system but the path to a frienfeed real-time module looks much longer than expected.
- Nir Ben Yona
I think the structure of Google, and all old skool search engines (searchword to your mother!), are not compatible with real time data gathering. Their bots would probably slow down the whole web if they were everywhere all the time. The nothing will be real-time anymore...
- Ruud van Wijngaarden
A screen shot of Google - http://ff.im/3dYwy
- Brent - Yes I am
Rather than thinking "the burden is on Google to spider the web in real-time" think "clever sites with active communities can help Google give the appearance of real-time web search." I don't think people blog in real-time, but they do in the aggregate, and some sites do better than others in helping out the "spiders."
- Richard Walker
Strangely, Robert's search link doesnt have a single entry from Twitter...atleast in first 3 pages i checked.
- Roshan Ramachandran
Roshan, look at first link in the screen shot I captured right above - It shows a twitter reference ... Its a direct link to his twitter page ...
- Brent - Yes I am
It makes sense since this item originated over on Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
The other one is mostly showing friendfeed, because that conversation started on friendfeed. Interesting how Google works.
- Robert Scoble
I just posted a shot with the omitted searches brought back in - very interesting ... http://ff.im/3dZRz
- Brent - Yes I am
http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/activit... - this is getting a little weird. Here there is a link to yoiur twitter page which is alright, but then all the friend feed chat is below your Link ... WTF? and it is in real time ... Ok apparently this guy is taking a major chunk of FF Feed and posting it on his blog in real time. I'm not sure, but it sure seems like plagerisim to me ...
- Brent - Yes I am
I agree with Ruud, Google indexing social media sites (as well as links) is an effective way to appear real-time, as they are already where most of the action happens anyway. Some sites are always more likely to contain current content while others are a waste of resources to crawl more than once a month.
- Alistair (alpinefolk)
Try anything - A blog, Flickr, Google is on it
- Brent - Yes I am
I imagine google could also identify frequently updated sites by making notes about how often each site is updated, each time the bot passes through. Then send the bots to rapidly index sites with a high real-time score. It could be a self-adjusting process that would ensure no resources are wasted rapidly scanning static sites.
- Raj Advani
exactly Raj, it's a constantly self-adjusting algorithm that can distinguish sites that are "static" or "dynamic" or "should be dynamic but aren't at the moment" (i.e. tube blockage) - and also perhaps predict spikes and schedule the site's time slot for the best spidering payoff.
- Richard Walker
Adding the Greasemonkey script "Twitter Search Results on Google" combined w/ an advanced Google search makes good comparison
- Mike Elliott
I think this is funny/cool - I don't normally see my stuff show up for a while but to have it show up as quick as it did is interesting. That was a fun conversation last night - I love Web 2.0
- Robert Freeze
Yeah! It seems like they've tweaked their servers to hunt after these realtime mirco-blogging sites.. Even, Tweets are showing up early like never before. :)
- Mohammad Abdurraafay
Hey Robert, yes it seems so. Great progress
- Gianluigi Cuccureddu
It hasn't come up in the discussion yet, so I'll mention ... is it possible that many of you are getting unrepresentative results, if you have recently visited a site, and you then Use Google to search for keywords or phrases. Google may be returning results to YOU, individually, more quickly, by using your recent browser history to return customized Search Results based on sites recently visited.
- Gary Etie
... Also ... I get Google Alerts, via Gmail, 10 minutes after posting to my blog, if the post contains Google Alert search terms that I monitor. Getting a Google Alert, 10 minutes after a self-hosted, WordPress Blog Post brings other factors into the "real time search" discussion, like the affect of "Notifications" that go out to Google, MSN, Yahoo, etc., via WordPress Plug-Ins, as soon...
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- Gary Etie
Really? Google doesn't customize Search Results to the individual user, based on browsing history?
- Gary Etie
Its not just searchwiki that's customized and adding &pws=0 does not come close to removing all customization.
- Ryan Underdown
from fftogo
I posted an entry on my blog ( http://austincitypermits.com/blog... ) with the words "Current Google Gap in Real Time Search" in the title. Time stamp - May 26, 2009 @ 21:40. I'm going to Search Google periodically, to see how quickly it gets indexed, and post the timestamp of the Google Alert I receive.
- Gary Etie
Can you tell me why "real-time" search is good?
- Jason Nunnelley
I believe it's good for everyone in case you happen to be looking for the information. It's good for Google because if they can't do real time then the twitter search and everyone elses search that does will dominate more and more.
- James Stratford
Time stamp - blog post - May 26, 2009 @ 21:40 .... Time stamp - Google Alert - "austin city permits" - Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:52 PM - That took 12 minutes.
- Gary Etie
A normal Google Search already has the post at #1 position, due to exact wording. It took me 30 minutes to get back and do a search, and it was already up at 22:10 PM CST ... http://www.google.com/search...
- Gary Etie
Robert - I've done a few blog posts on this. I call it 'hyper-indexing' ... and they've been doing it on select blogs for over a year (A lot of blogs ....)
- Charlie Anzman
Charlie - That's precisely what I'm attempting to point out. My blog is not select, by any means, and I get a Google Alert within 10 - 12 minutes after a post, and the post shows up in Google Search results within 30 minutes.
- Gary Etie
equal is not good ,but snap internet in 1s is cool
- qian
Yes I have noticed this too in the last few days
- Nova Spivack
so that explains why I got so many vanity google alerts today.
- Peggy Dolane
Wolfram Alpha is Coming -- and It Could be as Important as Google | Twine (computational knowledge engine) - http://www.twine.com/item...
Mike Bruder, Leisa Fearing, Wildcat and 66 other people liked this
I want to see this.
- Robert Scoble
from Bookmarklet
This should be exciting. Remember, Wolfram discovered cellular automata, too.
- Akiva
So long as the beta isn't called Wolfram Hart, it'll all be good.
- WoH: Minding her Steves
Akiva, I believe it was actually John von Neumann (in '40s...working on self replicating systems he followed suggestion by Stanislaw Ulam to use mathematical abstraction rather than having one robot physically build another robot). For those of us in school in the early 70's our first exposure to CA was via an article in Scientific American (Martin Gardner's Column) on John Conway's "Game of Life." Wolframs' work was considerably later....(I think first published around mid 80's) but oh what work it was!
- David HC Soul
Sorry, Akiva but Wolfram didn't discover cellular automata von Neumann did and the NYT article from several years ago was talking about Wolfram playing with the Game of Life created by John Conway in the 70's.
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
I was being sarcastic. His whole pompous 'new science' deal and all that.
- Akiva
Sorry Akiva - right over my head; it must be too late at night for an old guy like me.
- David HC Soul
Looks like it will be a giant, general-purpose expert system.
- Pavlo Zahozhenko
S'all right. I'm barely keeping it together myself.
- Akiva
++Higlet
- The Amber
My goodness - #WolframAlpha news is incredible. I've been so looking forward to hearing about something like this.
- Julian Edward
Robert, I too want to see this... the potential for this is really amazing. Einstein would go nuts for this, huh?! This is a great milestone in mathematics and computing science
- Susan Beebe
Hi folks -- it is indeed very cool -- I was blown away by what I saw. It is really something new and impressive. Only Wolfram would take on something so ambitious, and actually pull it off.
- Nova Spivack
Hmm... what's stopping Google from creating something similar? I guess because of what the article highlighted: hidden in the article is a big red flag for me, " ... there are potential biases in the answers one might come up with, depending on the data sources and paradigms used to compute them."
- Pandu ● IT Optimizer
I have to add a note: Ever tried searching for "who is the mother of britney spears" in Google? Try it.Or, for a more acceptable kind of question, try "what is the capital of bolivia"
- Pandu ● IT Optimizer
http://www.trueknowledge.com seems to do the same thing..impressive service.
- Mahesh CR
I've noticed a pattern over quite a few years: Internet services that are pre-announced with a great deal of hype often fail. Services that simply and quietly open up shop, like Google, and which rely on word-of-mouth to communicate an exciting experience, are more likely to succeed. NEVER pre-hype your Internet service. Let the service speak for itself. That being said, from its...
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- Sean McBride
If it takes that many words to describe it I'm thinking it's not going to pan-out.
- Kevin Gamble
I dunno, I remember google having a good amount of hype long before I ever used it, I don't think it did "pre-launch" but certainly long before it was well known and at a time when other search engines results were still competitive.
- Richard Lawler
Have any pointers to the Google pre-hype? I don't recall it.
- Sean McBride
This all seems to rest upon some interesting advances in Knowledge Representation, which might be of use even if the service doesn't pan out.
- Seth Greenblatt
Where are the research papers underlying the knowledge representation approach here? Wolfram's team worked entirely in stealth mode?
- Sean McBride
I have a friend working on this and he is raving about it.
- Mark Krynsky
Mark -- where is the headquarters for this project?
- Sean McBride
reminds me that we still have no clear picture of how mind works.. and i don't think we could ever possibly have..
- Hayk
Hayk -- we know quite a bit about how the mind works, and will learn much more. Cognitive science is a viable endeavor.
- Sean McBride
Sean, that is true. But compare the amount of money, resources, time and effort put into finding out how the mind works, combine it with all previous endeavors of humanity and contrast it with results we have - IMO not much. Processing info in as organic and natural a manner as human mind is the objective of this project. I am going to be cautiously skeptical in my expectations about it, although I already see the hype that gathers around it - reminiscent of Turing's machine some 70+ years ago.
- Hayk
Sean, my friend is based in LA but I don't have details on where the rest of the team / offices are located.
- Mark Krynsky
Where Sergey Brin once said "If it doesn't exist, you cant find it" Wolfram is saying the answer can be constructed from the question. Notions of what 'does' and 'does not' exist are going to be pulled in for questioning.
- zeroinfluencer
Wolfram and his team are smart. I look forward to seeing what impact this has on the community. I wish that he would do more work in "productionalizing" his research in emergent behaviors.
- Will Hawkins
What is supposed to be imported from Twine? I've added it as one of my services but nothing has come though. Is it things you 'collect'?
I had problems before. When using the bookmarklet you have to select a twine as a destination, or it won't show up here. I hope that helps.
- Alejandro
Alejandro, no I've added it as a service in my Account page, so it should feed into FF automatically but nothing at all. :-(
- Kol Tregaskes
You know, I did that, and forgot all about it. I shall go and check it out now you've reminded me. So much Social Media, so little time!
- Ian May
Anything you post to any *public* twine appears in FriendFeed -- start your own personal public twine... like a blog ... or post to others you join
- Nova Spivack
Nova, cool thanks!
- Kol Tregaskes
This is still not working for me, I have create d public twine and added 2 articles to it but nothing is coming through. :-(
- Kol Tregaskes
You can pull the rss feed from your public twine into friendfeed like a blog, or you can just add your twine account to friendfeed to get all public posts you make to any twines.
- Nova Spivack
Ah OK, but then what is supposed to be pulled in when you add it as a proper service in FriendFeed? It seems pointless to have it as a service you can add in FF if you then have to add any Twine feed as generic blog. :-(
- Kol Tregaskes
I wish Twine could import my delicious items automatically instead of making me do it manually. I like the tagging functionality in Twine and might even use it more IF it automatically picked up my items in Delicious as I add them in Delicious. - http://www.twine.com/user...
Lillian Chow, RudĩϐЯaЯïan and Kårín Dalzĭel liked this
Dude -- why even bother using delicious anymore? Switch to Twine. WAY more powerful and a better long-term investment in your data's future. Of course I am biased... But I'm also right. :)
- Nova Spivack
It's better because Twine is soon going to be datamining all the links you add and gathering the full text and building you a search engine from them. You can get data out by RSS already. Full API coming in early 2009.
- Nova Spivack
Simpy already has an API, and you can build yourself a custom Google search engine any time you want. Just sayin'.
- Bill Hooker
I signed up for Twine (quick 'n' painless, nice) -- it seems pretty fast and easy to navigate (I wouldn't say intuitive, but learning curve not too steep), but until I can import my bookmarks from elsewhere I won't even be considering a switch. There's a FAQ item (http://www.twine.com/item...) that seems to indicate that bookmark import is functional, but I can't find it...
- Bill Hooker
Nova: a rising chorus asking for Twine to interact w/ other web services. kthnx http://tinyurl.com/599wca
- Stephen Francoeur
I agree, until I can get my 3+ years of delicious bookmarks in, there's really no use. Plus, is there a firefox extension that matches or exceeds the Delicious functionality? I love being able to control+B, type in a phrase, and then arrow down to the page. Also, I miss DeliGoo. :(
- Kårín Dalzĭel
Trying to use RSSFWD to send my delicious feed to my "post by email" feature in Twine. Perhaps this will auto add my delicious bookmarks to Twine. Waiting to see if it will work. If not, will try xFruits instead of RSSFWD to see if that will work with Twine's post by email function.
- Stephen Francoeur
I have been using Delicious for years and it does exactly what I want it to do. I like the simplicity of function and design. When I look at the Twine site, I'm not exactly sure what it's trying to do.
- Your Neighbor Steve
Doesn't look like RSSFWD is working. I thought I'd take my delicious feed and have RSSFWD email that feed to Twine, which does allow you to email items you want to bookmark. Not sure what went wrong. Will try xFruits next.
- Stephen Francoeur
I still don't understand what Twine will do for me that del.icio.us does not- and the benefit of del.icio.us' large user base is difficult to match.
- David Rothman (☤)
It would be great if Twine did meaning extraction on a web page before you bookmarked it and used results as way to suggest tags (I know delicious suggests tags, but I'd like to see something more robust). See the ClearForest Gnosis addon for Firefox for what I'm talking about http://tinyurl.com/2tjjyl
- Stephen Francoeur
Must Watch...Twine: We Organise That Shit - http://uk.youtube.com/watch...
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Larry Lewis, Vicarbott, Josh Dilworth and 2 other people liked this
Twine’s marketing department made the video above as a joke for their staff meeting today. (Warning:Turn the volume down, NSFW).
- Zee.
That sounds like Salaam E. Baloney!
- Nick Martin
urban humor eh?
- Anthony Farrior
tupac in the background,lol
- Anthony Farrior
That's funny...!
- Far
sorry Adolfo had to remove as i'd just posted this a few mins earlier
- Zee.
he!
- Stalyn☂
I though this was hilarious. I was ROTFLMAO;) It also showed that the Twine team doesn’t take itself too seriously, something that many of us in our peer/colleague group and in this industry (including myself) are guilty of for sure.
- Josh Dilworth
Yeah the joke was on me today :). I have to say I almost panicked. Until they told me it wasn't the real video! LOL.
- Nova Spivack
Nova, so you know...you will forever be a legend in my books for letting this get out. Honestly this is probably the smartest demo video i've ever seen! Bloody brilliant...the only thing i'm unhappy about is that the tags don't seem to get automatically added to my shit like the shit says.
- Zee.
"this s**t is so dope... you don't have to do a damned thing!" This video is the S**t!
- Vicarbott
Let's say you have a large amount of constantly evolving information that you need to 1) easily add to and 2) refer to quickly. What sort of online app would you use?
Twine. That's exactly what I use it for. That, and the opposite of GTD;)
- Josh Dilworth
when you say "constantly evolving", what do you mean? what changes the information? is it changed by you, or outside forces? do the "values" of the information change? or does the shape of the information change? when you say, "refer to the information quickly", do you mean the ability to quickly link/share a single piece of information? or do you mean the ability to query the entire body of information quickly?
- Chris Hollander
Twine's not it, unfortunately. Needs to be more database like. Chris, the info is constantly changing because I'm adding it and tweaking it (this is all text, no numbers). And I mean the ability to query the entire body quickly.
- Carla Thompson
Why can't Twine do that? That is exactly what it does unless I'm misunderstanding the requirements...?
- Nova Spivack
That's exactly what I use a wiki for. Half formed thoughts that evolve over time
- Deepak Singh
many tools claim that they could do it, and indeed they could do partially the goal, but actually none of them can do it satisfactorily well. I guess that's why the question is raised. Be honest, I cannot think of any one that might fully satisfy your request.
- Yihong Ding
Nova - the main sticking point with Twine is that this info needs to be in its own separate silo. When I need to search for something in it, I don't need results from other Twines to show up. It's also a very large amount of information to dump in there. Ideally, I'd love a more intuitive and easier-to-search Quickbase-type application.
- Carla Thompson
i wouldn't use an online app. i'd use a desktop app. i'm a big fan of http://www.circusponies.com/. you can have a notebook-per-silo. you can setup a "clipping service" that lets you select text anywhere on your desktop and clip it in (preserving the source for things from Mail.app and browsers). it automatically generates index pages and has excellent search capabilities.
- peter royal
Hey Nova, I may have to eat my words. I'm just in the beginning stages of trying this out in a private Twine but... I'm liking it so far!
- Carla Thompson
Trying out Twine. Interesting, but sluggish. Many of my searches fail. Someone's labor of love until critical user and info mass.
We are doing some work on search features this week and everything will be massively faster in about a week or two (implementing caching).
- Nova Spivack
@chriskeene what you said (I tried Twine but I didn't quite get it)
Try it again. A lot has been added. It makes more sense now. Join some of the top 100 twines.
- Nova Spivack
I just don't understand twine yet either, seems about as useful as LinkedIn. I can output a feed from twine, but I can't insert a feed into it (as far as I can see). Maybe I am wrong about this. FriendFeed seems to "tie things together" much better than Twine.
- Just Joe
JFK to SFO...last row, stinky toilet, 2 hr delaydue to door that will not arm...part is on the way...business as usual
Oh man -- sounds rough -- I told my admin to never book the last row for that reason.
- Nova Spivack
twine is incredibly laggard right now
We're working on the server and you should see speed improvements over the next few weeks.
- Nova Spivack
Got an invite to Twine (word @fleagle), i'm trying I really am but just not feeling it, what am I missing?
Try the link I just sent you -- watch the video -- then it will make more sense
- Nova Spivack
ok watching the video now, making more sense and i'm liking the semantic web use.
- adolfo foronda
hmm i want to make all my twine items public. doesnt seem to be an easy way to do it :S
You can share them one by one with a public twine (create your own public twine). Alternatively -- in a week or so we will enable you to import your bookmarks from your browser or delicious into any twine -- so you could bulk import your bookmarks from somewhere else into your public twine.
- Nova Spivack
bugger! working horizontally provoked espresso on fresh white t-shirt
Last year I poured a full cup of hot coffee into keyboard. Used hairdryer to try to save it. Melted the computer by accident.
- Nova Spivack
I'm not sure what to think about Twine
You have to really use it to get a good sense of it. Watch my tutorials!
- Nova Spivack
wondering if Twine and Freebase are properly attached to the Semantic Web yet...
thomas elton and Deepak Singh liked this
We're more open than before -- you can see our RDF data publicly, but we still have to do some work on what we are putting into our RDF to make it more usable. It's on the list.
- Nova Spivack
You might want to watch the Twine video that explains how to use it...
- Nova Spivack
as soon as #Twine gets an #delicious import feature, I'm moving everything over
It's coming very soon -- within a week to a few weeks
- Nova Spivack
'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution - MIT News Office - http://www.twine.com/item...
Deepak Singh liked this
OK, so they do it a bit more efficient than others. I thought the main problem of H2 was not the generation, but the storage?!?!
- Egon Willighagen
University PR groups have a habit of really hyping stuff up don't they?
- Deepak Singh
The sad thing is, the public buys it; they don't seem to care about truth; just about the experience. It this how cultures collapse? They get so wealthy they stop caring about knowledge? Was Azimov wrong and doesn't it end when we stop working, but when we stop knowing?
- Egon Willighagen
Yep this sounds like they basically solved the world's energy crisis -- not sure that is accurate though. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
- Nova Spivack
"In a revolutionary leap that could transform solar power from a marginal, boutique alternative into a mainstream energy source, MIT researchers have overcome a major barrier to large-scale solar power: storing energy for use when the sun doesn't shine." Umm, isn't that what we use batteries for? I'd love to see an actual mass balance to understand just how much more efficient this is than using a battery. Waiting for the journal article to pop up on RSS to read.
- Colin Archer
You can now track Twine RSS/Atom feeds in FriendFeed
János Haits, Oliver Ding, Andy Murdoch and 6 other people liked this
Nova -- should I just add the feed of my "My items" page do you think, or just the feed in my public Twine?
- Josh Dilworth
Ooh, like a lot. Agree with Josh's comment - best way to go about it?
- Carla Thompson
Trying to get the My Items feed doesn't work because it requires username/password to access it (eg, http://www.twine.com/feed...), so I think the only way to go is to use your "My Public Twine" feed.
- Mark Szpakowski
Add the feed from your public twine to your FriendFeed account and it will pull anything you post there into FF. Or, better yet, add the feed from your profile page and it will pull all public items you post in any twines to FriendFeed (however there is a bug with profile feeds right now that will be fixed in about a week -- they aren't pulling the right content. I will remind you to add your profile feeds as soon as it is fixed in about a week!)
- Nova Spivack
@lostmoya i haven't really "gotten" Twine -would be curious to hear form anyone who is using it a lot and loving it
Nathan Rein liked this
Well Twine is a very special case. To me it's neither clear nor really useful so far.
- Matthias Schwenk
same here. it looks, like, powerful and stuff, but i don't get it yet
- Nathan Rein
The idea is that a Twine is a collection of various articles, some submitted by users, and others discovered through semantic analysis and keywords. I may be off a little, but I believe the developers of Twine are active on FriendFeed and can hopefully clear up my description.
- Rob Diana
to me it was too immature when released. i tried to use it twice, wanted to like it, and gave up. i did some comparison of delicious suggested community tags and twine semantic recommendation tags. delicious held it's own so i gave up after that
- rob zand
How to understand Twine:http://www.twine.com/item...
- Nova Spivack
thanks @nova!
- Marco(aureliusmaximus)
i am going to give the link Nova provided a thorough read and give it another shot - am always interested in finding new sources of info
- Marco(aureliusmaximus)
There was so little interest in this Room that I stopped checking it. Novak asked me to add him as an Admin so I did.
You mean Nova :^) but yes thanks. Actually there are a bunch of people in here now.
- Nova Spivack
congrats to #twine for taking down the veil ... http://www.twine.com/item...
Thanks Pete!
- Nova Spivack
Here is an example of my frustration. Let's take this entry for example, http://www.twine.com/item.... I found it via my email digest. But there is nothing on this page that is added value from say an interest room in FriendFeed, or monitoring a particular tag on delicious.
tiziana and Sean McBride liked this
Continuing ... my interest is in the "Recommended Items" area, which is blank. The Hakia entry by itself has limited value. Plus what if there is a Twine that I am not subscribed to. I don't want to subscribe to a 100 twines. Ideally, there should be some mechanism that evaluates my interest graph and serves up items of potential interest
- Deepak Singh
Actually that is what we are working on. Also -- as you add more stuff to Twine your recommendations area will show links to things in other twines -- even twines you are not yet a member of.
- Nova Spivack
Nova, that would be great. Looking forward to seeing that
- Deepak Singh
Comment on: Priming the Pump: New Users, Meet the Old Winners - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
Marshall Kirkpatrick liked this
I have been writing recently about a new category of Web apps that I call "Interest Networks" instead of "Social Networks." Interest networks help people keep up with their interests whereas social networks help people keep up with their friends. There's an important difference: While my friends are part of my interests, I have many other kinds of interests such as my profession, products I care about, hobbies, beliefs, places, events, and various other topics of interest. Following specific people is not the most effective way to track specific interests. I need a way to follow the *interests* themselves. That is the purpose of Twine.com (http://www.twine.com), the product that my company is building. Twine is for interest networking -- for keeping up with interests, not just people. Ultimately this is more democratic. In a service like Twine, everyone who shares an interest in topic x is equal. I get the best information from a more diverse set of people -- not just from the most popular people.
- Nova Spivack
from FriendFeed MT Plugin
Join the FriendFeed Room for Twine - http://friendfeed.com/rooms...
By the way I'm announcing this here because I don't know any other way to announce a FriendFeed room and this is relevant to the topic of this room.
- Nova Spivack
Interest Networks vs. Social Networks
Davide D'Incau, udo, Dane morgan and 4 other people liked this
Social network are for keeping up with friends. Interest networks are for keeping up with Interests. They are a superset of social networks.
- Nova Spivack
A most important distinction: interest networks vs. social networks. Some Friendfeed users, I suspect, are struggling with difficulties in developing some viable and valuable interest networks amidst the flood of (perfectly legitimate and useful) social chit-chat.
- Sean McBride
I think FriendFeed has lots of potential, but as I use it more it seems to be more of a chat related service. More person to person, or person to everyone. Twine is the exact reverse -- we're great at interest networks and enabling people to connect with them. We already have 14,000 "twines" (twines are interest networks) in about 2 months (compared to about 1000 in FriendFeed, I think). We're the inverse. I think it would be cool to link them.
- Nova Spivack
And: Friendfeed should be powerful and flexible enough to accomodate both interest networks and social networks. (I am tempted to refer to "socializing" networks, since in the conventional technical sense an interest network is a type of social network.)
- Sean McBride
Another issue: forum frameworks like Yahoo Groups probably provide more powerful tools overall for interest networking than Friendfeed in its current state. One, for instance, can easily post long complex documents in Yahoo Groups.
- Sean McBride
Nova, perhaps in the Silicon Valley community, but hardly among my community. It's more of a hybrid between IRC and discussion group. We definitely have a strong (the best one I have ever been involved with) interest network going here. It depends on how you use it, since both formats seem to be successful
- Deepak Singh
Yeah or on the other hand, maybe FriendFeed should focus and do one thing well. Twine is not trying to do what FriendFeed does. It would just be too much. We are trying to do Interest Networking really well. Social networks already exist and we plan to hook up with them more and more.
- Nova Spivack
Hey Deepak -- can you explain further? I wasn't sure I understood you exactly.
- Nova Spivack
Nova, we have a room here called "The Life Scientists". It's almost like a cafeteria for life science types to discuss various topics, varying from open data, scientific publishing, genetics, you name it. It's definitely an interest group, cause there are many whom I met for the first time there. Others seem to find use for friendfeed as a social network or broadcast medium (mostly the silicon valley tech crowd).
- Deepak Singh
My idea use case for Twine for me information discovery. Lets say I mirror my delicious feed and google reader shared items and my blog to Twine, there should be some way of doing some text analytics and recommending other streams of information to me.
- Deepak Singh
Good ideas -- yes that is coming soon. We will be enabling delicious import very soon, as well as others. RSS coming later in the year. Then we are learning from all that and suggesting other things you might like. But that's only half of it -- other users help you find things as well -- we have "rooms" (twines) but they are very powerful tools and getting better all the time. We also support authoring and more is coming. We want to make Twine the best place for sharing info about interests with groups.
- Nova Spivack
Interesting -- yes I can see that there could be vibrant interest networks in FriendFeed too -- like the one you describe Deepak. But they have a more chat-like feel. Quite different from Twine. In Twine there are big threaded discussions, and also people growing shared searchable knowledge bases around interests too. It seems that stuff in FriendFeed is more like Twitter -- more about the present and real-time than the past and what has been saved.
- Nova Spivack
Nova, agree to a degree (hence the IRC reference). Twine should be a knowledgebase, looking back into your past activity stream to add new nodes to your "interest graph" and feeding up new information. For me at least, any social aspects to Twine should be secondary to the information discovery part.
- Deepak Singh
In Twine Daily Digest I'm tracking Apps :: On Semantic Web & Related Applications, Web 3.0 - Semantic Web, Knowledge Management & Discovery, and Folksonomies. So far the signal to noise has been better in Twine than in Friendfeed and the links more substantive. But here is the peculiar thing: Friendfeed is much more sticky for me so far than Twine. The Friendfeed developers have managed to put together an amazingly addictive interface.
- Sean McBride
What is it about the FriendFeed interface that is so addictive?
- Nova Spivack
Nova -- the incredible mental speed and flow, the electricity, the volatility, the exposure to new perspectives and ideas that are not on my radar. This is lightyears beyond any chat software I've encountered to date. But I've also expressed frustration about the lack of FF tools for managing signal to noise. I'm noticing an increasing attention deficit on my part since getting hooked on FF.
- Sean McBride
And: I wonder if Tim Berners-Lee could have developed HTML in a Friendfeed frame of mind. It is not conducive to cultivating long deep thoughts or complex conceptual systems.
- Sean McBride
Really? I find the FriendFeed chatting interface really clunky and counterintuitive. Why can I not reply directly to a comment? It's very chat like. I don't really like chat. I like threads.
- Nova Spivack
Generally I prefer threads too, and have requested the ability to comment on comments (and to like comments). But there is something speedy and liberating about skipping conversational stones over the pool. (And something more shallow as well. Both styles of conversation have their place.)
- Sean McBride
FF serves a purpose but my brain just doesn't wrap around it well. It does not seem to organize in a logical sort of fashion that I'm used to I suppose. My hope is that Twine will help in that regard. Twitter/Identi.ca = socializing on the fly Twine = organizing my interests into neat little packages (crossing my fingers).
- Renee Hendricks
Maybe I haven't really figured out how to use FF the right way... is the idea that you just post and comment? Is that all there is to it?
- Nova Spivack
Nova: from my perspective, you follow those people you find interesting and/or rooms you find interesting - you share things you find interesting with those following you - you comment/"like"/etc those items belonging to those you follow - you read the latest ... which is organized by time posted/commented. That's where I get a bit lost in the logic. I keep expecting to see it organized a bit more ... well logically. Ok, now I've confused myself again.
- Renee Hendricks
Nova -- there's more to it for me. I pay close attention to links posted by minds I respect. Good stuff turns up on a regular basis. But I wish there were more people posting here on subjects that interest me.
- Sean McBride
The thing about Friendfeed: I see a huge potential in data mining FF 999 ways to Sunday, to fine tune signal to noise along hundreds of parameters. It could also be used to build collaborative Semantic Web knowledgebases down the line.
- Sean McBride
Friendfeed: collaborative brainstorming, collaborative stream of consciousness, lifestream aggregation, reality mining. Nice idea. Will it actually produce any lasting creative work? Remains to be seen. For creative people, the only conversation that really counts is the internal one. Everything else is a distraction. At one end of the spectrum we have the tweet; on the other end the dissertation or book.
- Sean McBride
Thanks Susanne. I find FF a bit confusing and overwhelming. Funny since I come from Twine and some say that about Twine too.
- Nova Spivack
Susanne -- on the sprawling chaos of Friendfeed. Occasionally I use FF search to map out who is talking about or posting links on what subjects, and I notice that they might as well be living on different continents -- they are unaware of one another's existence. Not very efficient. FF needs tools for automating the formation of interest groups. That is where some clever data mining could come into play.
- Sean McBride
Nova - so far I haven't found Twine to be confusing or overwhelming. It seems to fit nicely into my "logic" LOL.
- Renee Hendricks
Nova -- we probably wouldn't have had this conversation with conventional forum software, like Yahoo Groups or Google Groups. Friendfeed is more fast and fluid.
- Sean McBride
Sean - yes, that's part of it. I think I'm expecting to see a better categorization of those I'm following or rooms I've joined. And interest would probably be at the top of the categorization. Say for instance I'm following Nova, Nova should fall into a higher category of Twine and the Twine room I'm a member of would fall into the same category. Then say l0ckergn0me is categorized under Local or Seattle. Does that make sense?
- Renee Hendricks
Susanne - makes perfect sense. I assume that the FF developers are aware of these issues and are working on them. This is still a relatively new piece of software.
- Sean McBride
It depends what the FF folks are going for. I think FF is more like chat, and less like forums.
- Nova Spivack
Isn't this basically very similar to Twitter? Or maybe IRC?
- Nova Spivack
Nova - perhaps you should ask the FF developers about their vision for the future of the product. I don't know for sure. Combining the best features of chat and forums would seem like a logical line of development. It's easy to see how one could enrich rooms features. In the meantime, there is a kinetic momentum here that is undeniable, at least for some of us.
- Sean McBride
Yeah I see that. I'm still new to FF so still learning about it.
- Nova Spivack
How do you track a conversation in FF?
- Nova Spivack
Nova, every time someone likes something or responds to a post it goes to the top of your feed. That pretty much ensures that the interesting stuff stays on top. For something you are especially interested in, each post has a permalink
- Deepak Singh
Sean has pretty much covered all the reasons I like Friendfeed. The friction is just very low
- Deepak Singh
I see -- so basically it is similar to Twine -- things pop back up to the top when people comment on them etc. in Twine too. Also each item has a permalink -- same as Twine. Quite similar.
- Nova Spivack
But my RSS reader will not subscribe to the permalink for this discussion. Says the feed is bad. Does yours?
- Nova Spivack
Nova -- I can't figure out a way to use Google Reader to subscribe to the permalink for this conversation. Am I missing something? It would be nice if Friendfeed was fully integrated with Google Reader (or any other RSS reader), and if it were possible to respond to comments directly from the reader.
- Sean McBride
Deepak - three words come to mind for FF: swift, fleet and frictionless. The less friction the better for all user interfaces. That's why Google rocks. That's why Craigslist is cutting heavily into Ebay.
- Sean McBride
Two new Friendfeed features would help with interest group formation: 1. rank Friendfeed users by mentions of *expression 2. rank Friendfeed rooms by mentions of *expression. For instance, in looking for discussion about the Semantic Web: 1. rank Friendfeed users by mentions of Semantic Web 2. rank Friendfeed rooms by mentions of Semantic Web.
- Sean McBride
I'll add the "best off" links (which can be customized as well)
- Deepak Singh
Nova, yes, but for some reason you feel less compelled to respond on Twine. I use it mostly to click on interesting links which show up in my daily email digest (which I do quite a bit)
- Deepak Singh
The "social networks" term commonly covers both friend- and topic-oriented networks (eg, groups or fan pages on FB are what you call interest networks). I suggest that social networks include both friend networks and interest networks. In fact, pure friend networks are probably very rare.
- Mark Szpakowski
Well I don't use Facebook to track interests -- I guess some people do. I certainly don't use LinkedIn to do that. Clearly not all social networks are interest networks. But ultimately they should be unified, I agree.
- Nova Spivack
It seems to me that Twine and FriendFeed are very different and potentially complementary. FF helps you track your friends' activities around the web efficiently. Twine helps you track interests efficiently. I think Twine should feed into FriendFeed -- you should be able to track your friends' Twine activity in FF. Ultimately I think Twine goes much deeper than FF around interests, groups, and managing your content and knowledge. FF is stronger around real-time conversation and friend-tracking.
- Nova Spivack
I find the Rooms to be more interest oriented and the general feed (or your friends) feed to be more social oriented. FF seems to be in the middle...
- the_IT_factor
I just was on the treadmill and one of my neighbors told me about his new 30-inch screen, saying: "it's better than sex." I won't tell his wife he said that. :-)
Jeff Quinton, pcnerd37, Victor Ryden 美久太阿 and 10 other people liked this
It's not the size that matters, Robert.
- Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ Ⓟⓘⓡⓘⓛⓛⓞ
Hmm... we've got the 60-incher in the home... does that make us a high-def brothel? ;)
- Kevin C. Tofel
My friend and toss that phrase out a lot for various things. I actually feel a lot better about it now.
- Shawn Farner
It's the dot pitch.
- Oldengrey (Jay)
you talk to your neighbor while treadmilling? Do they come in and out of the house or do you yell through the window?
- Wayne Schulz
I use the gym at the Half Moon Bay Ritz.
- Robert Scoble
Chris: you have never had a 30-inch monitor on a high-end Mac, have you?
- Robert Scoble
Depends what he's watching on it
- Nova Spivack
I don't care how large it is (screen size), if it's better than sex then Chris is right - someone is doing something wrong
- Jennifer Van Grove
Yeah, if you're bragging about a 30-inch screen being better than sex, chances are you haven't HAD sex since 30-inches was a big screen. But I guess you could be talking about a laptop or computer monitor, and not a television...now THAT would be nice...
- Craig Eddy
what's funny is that his wife may already think so too!
- Ken Stewart | ChangeForge
from twhirl
This might be one of my favorite FF conversations ever.
- Zach Underwood
That may also mean he's not doing it right? =)
- Winston Teo
What kind of inputs does that thing have?
- Oldengrey (Jay)
Jennifer and Craig: when guys talk like this they don't actually mean it. I just think that line is funny.
- Robert Scoble
if one could "like" comments, I would like Winston's :)
- Elisa Camahort Page
Scoble you let the cat out of the bag to all the women here, of *course* some things can be better than sex :)
- Craig Eddy
I have a 40". Ask your neighbor if that's better than an orgy.
- Long Nguyen
If I bought a 30" monitor without clearing it with my wife first, that's all I'd have for a while.
- Andrew Smith
I have a 30" Dell flat screen (2560x1600 res). In the beginning I actually thought it might be too big but now I can totally see myself adding another one. Definitely worth the money and much better than a typical dual-mon setup (and nowadays getting close to the same price).
- Gus Perez
@Andrew Smith - ditto...plus infinity on that one.
- JA Castillo
i'm going to leave that alone. otoh, dual monitors offer more control of workflow, I believe.
- Andrew Feinberg
pulleeeeze....boys
- Francine Hardaway
Twine -- for discussing next-gen blogging, social media, social bookmarking, and Interest Networking
Join the FriendFeed Room for Twine - http://friendfeed.com/rooms...
Come discuss Interest Networks -- the next generation of blogging (in my opinion)
- Nova Spivack
Join the FriendFeed Room for Twine - http://friendfeed.com/rooms...
Mitch Wagner liked this
isn't telling people in one room to join another room a bit spammy as well?
- Duncan Riley
No actually Duncan this is a related topic. The Twine room is for talking about the future of social media and Interest Networks, blogging, and Twine (and the semantic web). That's a set of topics that I would think would be of interest to members of this room. Joining the Twine room doesn't mean un-joining THIS room -- so it's not like a poaching attempt. Lighten up, man. If you cannot stand lots of noise in your social media why are you in FriendFeed in the first place? One man's noise is another's music.
- Nova Spivack
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