"It involved sleep deprivation, the withholding of medical treatment, stress positions, long-time standing, and beating. Sound familiar?
According to the Bush administration's definition of torture, McCain was therefore not tortured. ... Now the kicker: in the Military Commissions Act, McCain acquiesced to the use of these techniques against terror suspects by the CIA. And so the tortured became the enabler of torture. Someone somewhere cried out in pain for the same reasons McCain once did. And McCain let it continue." - Paul Buchheit via Bookmarklet
Again "like" is a wrong word. Thanks for sharing is the right one. How about offering a reader a choice of words to express the feeling? Well, I guess this comment rather belongs to FF feedback room. - Eugene
Still not sure where I stand on this. I think that there must be a limit to the violence involved in torture. BUT, bad people do bad things, and they are not going to tell us what they are planning if we ask them nicely...even if we say please. - Bob Blunk
They don't tell you what you want to know when you torture them either. There is some kind of myth out there still running around that says torture works. It does not work. - Brad Nickel
Didn't we get some of our worst intelligence (about the non-existent WMDs in Iraq) from someone that we tortured? People will say whatever it takes in order to get it to stop.. even admitting they did something that they did not in fact do.. - Alex Barbara
Having the Shrub as prez since they stole the election in 2001 (with 600,000 fewer votes than Gore got) has been a torture to the entire world. Period. Now that McCain's enlisted Rove and his dirty pranksters, I don't know whether Obama will get voted in or not. - Siddharth Deb
No, the WMD stuff came from a pathological liar. You do get what you want to know by torture if it's performed on the person who has that information. That still doesn't make it right. - Amit Morson
Bob: Isn't it interesting how many murders and other crimes are solved without waterboarding? And by "crimes" I'm not referring to just pickpocketing - we figured out who was responsible for bombing the USS Cole without torture, too. The world isn't an episode of 24. Here's how we did in in WWII: http://bit.ly/4AGA9K - David Worrell
This is a really good article. Puts things in perspective. - Rodrigo Jaroszewski
Torture is an entirely untrustworthy method for acquiring and verifying intelligence, people will in fact say whatever they think the torturer wants to hear, just to get them to stop. Not only is it completely irresponsible military strategy, it's also severely immoral. Anyone that advocates a permissive attitude towards torture should be ashamed of themselves. - Jason Wehmhoener via NoiseRiver
Bob, with "bad people" do you mean e.g. the (according to Wikipedia) "approximately 420" Guantano detainees who "have been released without charge"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...) Or with "bad people" do you mean e.g. politicians responsible for pre-emptive strikes against another country under false pretenses, who you think should be tortured in order for us to find out more about what their real motives were? - Philipp Lenssen
Torture doesn't work, it destroys the reputation of the torturer, and it is the favorite tool of despots, tyrants and sadistic totalitarian regimes. In American popular culture, torturers used to be portrayed as sinister villains, and with good reason. How far we have fallen. - Sean McBride
The neoconservatives behind the torture policy have repeatedly smeared as "bad people," "terrorists," "traitors," etc. anyone, including mainstream Americans, who disagrees with their extremist program. This is how it always goes with torturers -- they end up torturing anyone who gets in the way of their quest for absolute power. See Stalin and Hitler for two telling examples. - Sean McBride
we must do what is necessary to protect the United States and bring justice to those that harm it. The prisoners at Gitmo have been treated better than what most of them deserve.Remember people, these are terrorists we're talking about. Those are the people responsible for 9/11, for car bombings and much more. - David Ward
Wow, here on Friendfeed no less. Are these guys serious with the absolute faith they put in the military apparatus, and so completely willing to waive the rule of law because someone was indirectly associated with "car bombings and much more"? How can you even have a discussion with someone that has so little respect for human rights? Even during WW2 we didn't torture Nazi war criminals. Are these guys worse than Hitler? Is 9/11 worse than the execution of 3 million Jews? - ⓞnor
I guess I just have to hope that people with a viewpoint like David Ward's ("remember, these dudes are BAD, because someone said so. break out the rack! that'll get us the truth!") are in a fairly small minority and can be overcome through democratic process. - ⓞnor
People like David Ward have managed to take over the American government under the reign of Bush 43 and the neocons. We live in very scary times, in which every sacred principle of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights has been debased. - Sean McBride
David Ward - Bush and neocons have been torturing many people for seven years now. Can you name a single high-level 9/11 conspirator that they've been able to convict in a fair trial on the basis of testimony extracted by torture? If not, why not? - Sean McBride
There are *rules* for dealing with lawbreakers and enemies. And there are far worse things than 9/11. And torture is a moronic way to get information - it's not like we've actually found Osama, for example. But I do like to think that the David Ward-esque medieval viewpoint, while surely near the center of neocon policy, is not the actual will of the American people. - ⓞnor
Sean, if anything it's the democrats that want to take away our rights not the conservatives. All I'm saying is we have to stand up and defend this country by force or whatever means necessary. You don't know the whole truth nor do any of us about what really goes on or how bad/good the prisoners are treated. I will tell you we treat criminals in our state and federal prisons better than anyone would expect. I'm not advocating torture at all and don't consider waterboarding or similar methods torture. - David Ward
David -- how long would it take for you, or I, or anyone here to confess to being the mastermind of 9/11 after being waterboarded? 1 hour? 30 minutes? 5 minutes? I repeat: not a single high-level 9/11 conspirator has been convicted in a fair trial on the basis of testimony extracted by torture. People will say absolutely anything under torture (and waterboarding is indeed a form of torture). - Sean McBride
Sean, I believe we killed many of the high level terrorists. In many cases of so-called torture, we already have evidence. I am all for human rights but my belief is when you kill innocent people you lose many rights you previously had. We're not killing innocent people. - David Ward
David - you still haven't mentioned the name of a single 9/11 conspirator who has been convicted of committing 9/11 on the basis of testimony extracted by torture. Many of those who have been tortured are innocent of any crimes. The Bush 43 administration has refused to *question* (not to mention torture) one of the lead 9/11 conspirators -- the head of Pakistan's ISI, who wired $100,000 to the hijackers just before 9/11. None of this adding up. - Sean McBride
Well, David your opinion that one waives one's human rights if one is a criminal, is not commiserate with the last 200 years or so of Western democratic principles, nor does it pass Constitutional muster; in other words, the rule of law. Are you sure you're living under the appropriate system? Perhaps some Islamic countries would be better suited to your values. Most of the tyrannies that would agree with your position were dissolved when the Berlin Wall fell. - Rick Powell
And btw, the phrase "so-called torture" is Orwellian, at best. The Viet Kong and the Gestapo knew exactly what it was, and so does Cheney. After all, Cheney and John Yoo borrowed the phrase, "enhanced interrogation techniques,' from those war criminals who came before him. - Rick Powell
Sean: Just to hone your last statement a bit: The first and only conviction to come out of Guantanamo was against a taxi driver. The administration has already admitted that most, not just many, but most, of released and current detainees are innocent. Yet, prisoners have died from torture, a euphemism for murder in these cases, under the aegis of an executive power run amok. These events are not in dispute. I really can't understand why more Americans are not angry about this. - Rick Powell
See the last three months of my FriendFeed shares for more information, including this article which I shared four hours before Bucheit's. Read Andrew Sullivan's definitive essay: http://tinyurl.com/5kz74w. Find out where the phrase "enhanced interrogation techniques" came from: http://tinyurl.com/3cjw3t If you're not angry, you're not paying attention. - Rick Powell
"I will tell you we treat criminals in our state and federal prisons better than anyone would expect" David, and that's likely to be one reason for the camp being where it is (Guantanamo): to escape potential restrictions (human rights) imposed by federal prisons. - Philipp Lenssen
Rick - 1. Andrew Sullivan has done a superb job in covering the torture issue. 2. Americans should be enraged that Bush and the neocons are ruining the good name of America with their torture policies. 3. The taxi driver in question received a light sentence and had nothing to do with 9/11. After seven years of torture, the Bush 43 regime has not managed to acquire a single conviction of a high-level 9/11 conspirator. This peculiar situation raises doubts about the entire 9/11 official story. - Sean McBride
@Philipp Lenssen: you obiviously missed my point. I never said anything about supporting the illegal acts of our current administration. They hide behind a curtain of secrecy and fear to carryout illegal and immoral acts, this is true beyond doubt. But the fact remains that there are bad people in this world. It amazes me at how soon we forget about all the people that died on 9/11. But nonetheless, BAD people carried out this attack and if torturing even one person would have prevented it. I AM ALL FOR IT - Bob Blunk
Bob Blunk: 1. The U.S. government tried to block investigations of the 9/11 hijackers before 9/11. 2. The Bush 43 administration has failed to question (not to mention interrogate or torture) the head of the ISI (Pakistani CIA) who wired $100,000 to the hijackers just before 9/11. 3. The U.S. government didn't torture two persons who it claimed were responsible for the 9/11 anthrax attacks: Steven Hatfill and Bruce Ivins. You and most other Americans have been led up the garden path on these issues. - Sean McBride
Bob Blunk: Do you have some formula for determining how much torture is allowed based on how many lives would be saved? Does it take into account the fact that the person being tortured most likely doesn't know anything? - Gabe Schaffer
The whole "ticking time bomb" scenario is one that exists only in the minds of hacks writing for quasi-fascist television shows. - Rick Powell
"This online school is significant because it offers a very low barrier to entry for novices who are looking to get their feet wet and start programming. ... Conversely, AppJet requires no software, allowing users to edit, debug, and run code through a browser interface. Because of this low barrier, AppJet may well see an influx of new students who they can convert to regular members." - Paul Buchheit via Bookmarklet
Great idea and great as a teaching aid/resource for high schools. - Peter Simard
Perfect direction for these guys. I always had trouble resolving their product and their target market. It seemed like they were building something that was maybe too simple for advanced users yet too complex for noobs. - Sacca
prevail-whale: glad you all enjoyed the tribute to 1. Yiying Lu's beautiful original design, 2. Twitter's success today. Thanks to Steve Rubel et al. for the inspiration (success). - John LeMasney
Not sure if birds are trying to pull FailWhale back into the water... - Andrew Feinberg
One of the reasons I respect Steve. I get very tired of watching all the critics shout FAIL everytime someone tries to do something new and doesn't get it right the first time. It's much better to encourage those who take the risks that others won't. - Ray Grieselhuber
I considered opening the eyes, but I thought that would play too much with the original illustration. The tweets are indeed trying to pull down the whale into the water, but the whale is prevailing against the strain. That whale is rising up, like a phoenix, or at least that's what I was trying to convey. ;) Thanks again to Steve for the inspiration. - John LeMasney
w00t!!! Viva da Success Whale - long may he live!!! I'm a diehard Twitter fan - not going anywhere!! ;) - Mari Smith
That's a good point. I'd say that I left Facebook lately much in the same way that LinkedIn and MySpace drove me away -- it just wasn't giving me any relevant and current information that I cared about. Having an activity stream of your friends is a little more like actually keeping up with them. - Justin Ward
I think the Facebook newsfeed just fails to tell me anything relevant. Letting me know that someone updated their profile picture is useless to me. That said, I think one of the biggest draws of Friendfeed is that the conversation is happening here. I never used to comment on blogs because I would forget to come back and see if anyone replied. Friendfeed does a great job of updating me on conversations in which I participated. - Sacca
@sacca i agree that the discussion on friendfeed is great and its even better that i can send to back to twitter where the dick started this - Fred Wilson
Would be great to add all this in blogs, don't you think? - David Álvarez
Fred- The Twitter use case you cite above though doesn't appeal to me. As much as I want to have a conversation with my friends on Twitter, the experience breaks down. Replies often don't make sense because recipients have different notification settings. Also, conversations don't end up in one place and require clicking to separate pages to get the proper context. If I were to create a 140 char version of this comment right now and send it back to Twitter readers of my page would have to work to catch up. - Sacca
I still use facebook so that I have my address book codified somewhere, but FriendFeed has killed any interest FB's newsfeed - patrick collison
DavidAlvarez, see http://disqus.com. (On that url, why do i always see and think “disgust”? Does this happen to anyone else?) - John Lam