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Paul Buchheit › Comments
Fwd: Looks like the connection between FriendFeed and Twitter is no longer real-time. Wonder who is to blame? (via http://friendfeed.com/carnage...)
Dave Martin, Marcel Weiß, Robert Scoble and 10 other people liked this
It was previously mentioned as an issue on Twitter's side. FriendFeed is polling now.
- Louis Gray
what? It's OK now? Or is it true that "Paul Bucheit wrote that they no longer had access to Twitter's firehose, so it sounds like it may have had something to do with Facebook's acquiring them, but don't quote me on that. - Jorge Escobar"
- Steve Gillmor
I think both Louis and Jorge are saying the same thing
- Jesse Stay
Right, I'd like to hear Paul or Bret confirm that.
- Steve Gillmor
Well, on a maybe related note, the Innovation Management Group (http://friendfeed.com/innovat...) has not updated for 24 hours now. That Group includes direct Twitter accounts, Twitter searches, Delicious RSS for a specific tag and SlideShares with a specific tag. No update at all for 24+ hours. Most odd and frustrating.
- Hutch Carpenter
also not finding older posts in search that used to be there. did this change too?
- Brooks Bayne
Twitter shut off the firehose, but made available a replacement API called birddog. We're about ready to switch that on (which will restore realtime Twitter updates), but are waiting on some final approvals from legal. I'm hoping it will all be resolved this week.
- Paul Buchheit
mmm
- Johni Fisher
thx for the feedback, paul
- Steve Gillmor
customer service in realtime :)
- Michael Slattery
javascript:void(document.body.contentEditable=(document.body.contentEditable!='true'))
workalien 24/7, Charles Ying, Igor Sereda and 91 other people liked this
WHOA! Cool!
- AJ Batac
awesome!
- siniradam
you just made my color blind self cry tears of joy - I can now click that to discover all of the links that some crazy color mad designer has "hidden" from me by their color choices
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
wow neat trick
- Onur Gündüz
is there a bookmarklet to make hackernews look good on the iphone?
- Ivan Kirigin
Add this to FriendFeed and you've got Wave :-)
- Jesse Stay
Reminds me somewhat of ClutterMe http://www.clutterme.com/ - they figured out how to make a whole page in-place-editable (javascript of course) - just click anywhere and start typing: http://www.clutterme.com/pages...
- Christopher Galtenberg
Nice, discover links obscured by CSS
- Orlando Pozo
Cute trick. Not being familiar with java script (at all) what is the void%200 statement there for?
- Eric Borisch
Without the void 0, the browser will navigate to a page showing the result of the computation.
- Paul Buchheit
Not grasping the %200, though
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
But that's not the case when I just execute it in the (safari) address bar. I take it that's expected?
- Eric Borisch
%20 is a space. I'm not sure about safari -- I use ff.
- Paul Buchheit
Cool. This + FB + malcontents + screenshots = ???
- Eric Borisch
What is this supposed to do again ?-- it does nothing that I can discern in IE, FF or Chrome (on Vista).
- Brian Sullivan
OK I see what it does on FF.
- Brian Sullivan
But only in FireFox presumably?
- Brian Sullivan
It works on IE
- AJ Batac
So it does -- first time I tried IE8 crashed.
- Brian Sullivan
Works in Chrome, too
- Jan Ole Peek
It doesn't seem to work in 4.0.223.11
- Brian Sullivan
I'm still on Chrome 3.0.195.27 but it says no update detected... this is in Win7. Pretty sure my OSX Chrome is 4.0.223.11 though.
- Jan Ole Peek
4.0.223.11 is the latest in the dev stream.
- Brian Sullivan
Works on Chrome Mac version here. I added the script as a new bookmark in the menu.
- Jesper Lind
Try this instead to avoid the %20 weirdness: javascript:void(document.body.contentEditable=(document.body.contentEditable!='true'))
- Matt Mastracci
Doesn't seem to work either -- maybe a bug in the dev version?
- Brian Sullivan
World's coolest bookmarklet, especially those who are creating demo apps.
- Mike Reynolds
Wow, this is awesome (works perfectly for me in Firefox 3.5). Simple Bookmarklet code that makes Web pages "editable". Now if only there were save + back buttons or something = Instant Wiki.
- Alex Schleber
I realized after playing for a while, some of the keyboard events stop working, like submitting form by hitting Enter .. (FF 3.5.3)
- Onur Gündüz
this is the fundamental line of every wysiwyg editor you use. for IE use allowEdit
- Tzury Bar Yochay
Clicking it a second time makes it un-editable (and therefore it should respond to events and such).
- Paul Buchheit
So how do you discover 'hidden' links.?
- Bicentennial (Franc)
Cool, worked for me (the box is Windows Chrome 3.0.195.27)
- ǝuǝƃnǝ
I mean in all open tabs and windows, not just in editable mode. It stayed that way, still no keyboard events (not restarted ff yet) :)
- Onur Gündüz
Figured how to make it but what's it good for - pretending to rip other people's stuff to sh*t?
- Michael Slattery
Michael - I'm thinking about possible use as a minor webdesign tool. Of course other tools are more powerful, but this is a nice simple one.
- Deborah Fitchett
Ok, I finally get it
- Michael Slattery
this is the worlds best website
- Grant Rhoades
An early birthday present: The Gmail Javascript compiler was just open-sourced! http://code.google.com/closure... (it compiles JS into smaller, faster JS)
Mo Kargas, Sai Ram Kunala, Chris Lasher and 108 other people liked this
We first started work on it almost 8 years ago. It has come a long way since then :)
- Paul Buchheit
Happy Birthday Paul!
- AJ Batac
Today is actually just my internet birthday.
- Paul Buchheit
Well, thanks :) But for a verbose API I'll stick with YUI :P Have to inspect the power of templating and compiler, though.
- Claudio Cicali ♋
I wonder what happens when you apply it recursively -- can you get down to 1 byte of code that takes no time to execute? ;=)
- Brian Sullivan
Finally! This is great.
- Tudor Bosman
Happy Birthday!
- Robert Scoble
Nice!
- Micah Wittman
Unfortunately it looks like the internationalization features may be missing. I wonder why those were removed? (or if I'm just not seeing it)
- Paul Buchheit
Paul you are my best-friend :`(
- Onur Gündüz
if you were starting a new site today, would you use this over jquery (which friendfeed uses)?
- Karl Rosaen
Karl, jquery is a library, this is a compiler. I would use them both.
- Paul Buchheit
well, i mean closure library :) but yeah, they could be used together
- Karl Rosaen
ah, i see this is a link closure compiler, not the broader closure tools.
- Karl Rosaen
Refactoring, JS style.
- Gabe
Now, this is a good news
- Ozkan Altuner
@Paul the Closure project has three components: compiler, library, and template language. Looks like the Closure/library might be competing with jQuery.
- Shakeel Mahate
this is sweet!
- Jay
I think jQuery does a lot of stuff that might confuse the compiler, e.g. iterating over an array of string function names and creating new function wrappers (look at the way the parent/child/next/prev/etc functions get installed) The Closure library is also full of type annotations that help the compiler make better optimization choices, so you're likely to get a better compiled outcome using Closure than jQuery + fixes + compiler
- Ray Cromwell
@paul -- I know you've been wanting this opensourced for a long time. sorry it took such a long time. Nick Santos and the jscompiler team has finally done it! Cheers!
- Jing Lim
Happy Birthday
- ashish
Many happy returns!!
- Drop dead, gorgeous!
Happy Birthday, Paul!
- Andrew Terry
Happy Birthday Paul
- Sandeep Kalidindi
Happy B'day Paul! don't be evil :)
- sirishkumar
Congratulations to the team (and @Paul & Jing) -- I know everyone's been waiting a long time for this. For anyone considering whether to use jQuery vs Closure, consider that they're meant for largely different purposes. jQuery's good for enhancing static web pages; Closure's much better at building large apps. And as Ray points out above, Closure the library is going to get much better results from Closure the compiler than an arbitrary js library would, because of all the type annotations.
- Joel Webber
Paul Buchheit has been at the top of my best of pages all month. Rock on, Paul.
- Donald C. Lindsay
Hey HAPPY BIRTHDAY PAUL !!! Cool present!! <insert CAKE> :D
- Susan Beebe
The file upload procedure is just plain broke -- is anybody at FriendFeed even interested? About 9 out 10 attempts end up with an endless "processing" cycle.
Kol Tregaskes, Eric Logan, Tyson Key and 10 other people liked this
For the longest time I couldn't even upload. Then all of a sudden, it started working again.
- Anika
I had this issue with an mp3 I tried uploading today as well. Couldn't they just play from another source without actually having it on their servers? If the link points to a valid file on the internet, it should still be able to play fine.
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
I think they decided to not respond to this group. See profile: "If you're experiencing a bug or issue, please see our <a href="http://friendfeed.com/about...">Contact page</a> to get in touch with us directly."
- NaHi
from f2p
Aye, same thing with spam. More time/effort is being dedicated elsewhere..understandable.
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
We're investigating. Are you experiencing this with all file types?
- Paul Buchheit
there's paul :)
- Holden Page
That's really interesting because I've not experienced this trouble at all. I only upload image files though.
- pea ♥ fierce as a woozle
Seems to be working for some people: http://friendfeed.com/ff-muzi...
- Jason Huebel
I don't know, might just be on and off thing. Worked yesterday fine though: http://friendfeed.com/random-...
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
I've had problems with the photo upload also. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
- Jill is sugar free
I haven't had any problem with anything other than mp3 files but I haven't tried any others either.
- Brian Sullivan
The most infuriating part of this is that the failed upload counts against your upload quota.
- Brian Sullivan
I had problems with it this evening, however, I was on mobile broadband. Worked perfectly when I got home and used wifi.
- Keith Bennett
Happened to me a couple weeks ago with an *MB mp3 file.
- beersage
Whats the upload quota?
- beersage
@Brian, upload quota?
- Jason Huebel
Images generally work for me. An mp3 file took several attempts though.
- Todd Hoff
Apparently you can only upload 3 mp3 files per day (I am guessing per 24 hour period) -- at least that is what the message I got seems to imply. It gives you this message at the end of the upload process -- and you have to wait until the quota is replenished ( though you have no way of knowing when that would be unless you remember when all the upload attempts happened).
- Brian Sullivan
I had some issues uploading .mp3s a while ago (finally just sent them to Posterous and had done with it) - Paul, is there a file size limit? The ones I had were encoded at like 320kpbs, so they were about 9 or 10mb. The smaller ones I did (4-5mb) seemed to have a greater success rate, but I couldn't really test because of the upload limit that counted the failed ones against me.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
From what I can tell, the upload problems are caused by S3 errors (we store the files using Amazon S3). I've put in a little more logging and more retries. If you still have trouble uploading files, post the filename and I'll investigate.
- Paul Buchheit
What is really happening during that "processing" cycle? The "upload" part appears to work -- at least the progress bar and time taken is in line with the size of the file. For me it is the "processing" part that has failed.
- Brian Sullivan
Magic ;)
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
The "upload" part is uploading to the FriendFeed servers. The "processing" part is the FriendFeed server uploading to Amazon S3, which is where there are sometimes problems.
- Paul Buchheit
Ah, thanks for clearing that up, Paul.
- Micah Wittman
This is still occurring. Not uploading to Amazon apparently.
- Eric Logan
nvm... I'll use the form http://friendfeed.com/about...
- LouCypher
gone, thanks.
- Paul Buchheit
Almost nobody understood my earlier webapp idea, so I'll try again. Imagine you were looking at a website such as FriendFeed and you wanted to create a near pixel-perfect copy but in a way that you could move things around, adjust shadows, etc. I want a tool that makes that easy.
Maxamad (Amazigh), Meryn Stol, Charles Ying and 27 other people liked this
And without taking screenshots or copying the html, since the point is that it should have the power to quickly create something that looks just like our current ui. Also, it should be web based, because then fonts, etc will be right, and also I hate installing things. My previous attempt at explaining this: http://friendfeed.com/e... (Balsamiq is not what I want). It does not need to produce html though, so it can cheat anyway it likes.
- Paul Buchheit
So you wanna something like "html to png/psd"? Editable graphical interface with layers and stuff?
- Selim Yoruk
No, not at all. My point is that you could look at the the FriendFeed ui (with your eyes) and then create something that looked just like it.
- Paul Buchheit
Fireworks is pixel perfect, correct font sizes and previews image in browser. Yes/No?
- Toby Graham
Are you looking for something like what is mentioned in this article - http://www.labnol.org/interne...
- Atul Arora
Are you want something like web-based rich page editor which works with objects in manner the human see them and want change them?
- gmarketer
I guess it's difficult to explain something that doesn't exist :(
- Paul Buchheit
thats piracy!!!
- Arjun
Paul, I like the idea, it's got merit. There's plenty of tools that do half the job, that is, snip the page. The second part, i'm not overly familiar with the tools out there. The manipulation. I guess you could snip the page, and embed into your tool a js library, like scriptaculous, and attach special event significance to the controls/tags, for moving, dropping, dragging.
- Stu Andrews
I think I get what you mean now and I agree. That's not very helpful but hey. In the mean time you could edit the page live using firebug maybe?
- Toby Graham
It seems to me like you want the Visual Studio Win Forms designer for web apps hosted and served to designers as a web app. Drag and drop elements onto the page and adjust their properties in a property grid. Then send a link to others so you can share your concept.
- Eric Schoonover
For this, I use simple vector graphics editing app, like Xara or InkScape - I just make screenshots and use them as raw building blocks - usually I cut out from them small elements like controls/text-blocks/images/etc... In vector graphics enironment managing such kind of blocks is much more easier than in photoshop.
- Phil Smirnov
remembers that this idea has been described by David Siegel in 1997 in his book : Creating Killer Web Sites (http://tinyurl.com/5skw63)
- Oaksun
Paul, i think the edit-page command on ubiquity with the ability to: visually edit css and publish the changes is close to what you are describing.
- Ian
Eric pretty much nailed the description of the dream tool that I think Paul was asking for. In my dream the web app is truly collaborative and has an active GUI. So you can adjust those properties using a mouse or tablet and anyone else on your design team can watch as you do it so they can make suggestions and modifications as you work.
- David Muir
Let's say you want to make a mockup of FriendFeed called "FriendFood". You want it to generally have the same layout, only the top blue bar will actually have a background made of lasagna and a font that is made of French fries, and what shows on the page is everything people write about food on the regular FF, like "pasta OR bean OR potato OR steak". But you'd like someone to be able to do that from the web and without messing into much coding. Is that it?
- Rodrigo Jaroszewski
I use OmniGraffle for this purpose.
- Jason Wehmhoener
Could you achieve it by using Firebug and tweaking the CSS?
- Shakeel Mahate
So something with the usability of say, omnigraffle, but that only used webkit for its rendering. With text controlled and positioned by actual css so that line spacing etc were correct, although again with a simpler UI than CSS has.
- Robin Barooah
Paul - I _just_ came across a site that did exactly that. Unfortunately, Safari's browser history is failing me and I can't find it anymore. Doh!
- Patrick Lightbody
Paul, not sure if you're still reading, but are you looking for interaction design changes as well, or just appearance?
- Mark Trapp
Did you try "PENCIL" an add-on for Firefox http://www.evolus.vn/Pencil/
- Francois Lamotte
I had never heard of Pencil, but it sure looks a lot like what I think Paul is describing.
- Jason Wehmhoener
I use ScrapBook Firefox extension to capture the page as is, and then edit that using Firebug.
- Jughead
Paul, I totally got you first time - anyone who thinks it's not a good idea has plainly misunderstood :-) It's the next step up from sketching out your UI on paper, n'est pas?
- Slippy "Threadsbane" Lane
Thanks @Francois. Pencil looks quite promising...
- Ashwin Bharambe
Firefox Webchunks? Does only the snipping part though. Perhaps an add-on to webchunks that will let us use all those chunks together.
- Vamsee
it'd be kind of like pushing edit on a wiki, right. like, firefox would have an edit button then you could visually redo the page
- Coleman Foley
There's also Axure RP, something I found a while ago. http://www.google.com/search...
- Jauder Ho
Dosen't ASP.Net do that already???
- Roberto Bonini
One quick tip in Photoshop is to turn off anti-aliasing and use your various web fonts (Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, etc.) and use your preferred font size in pixels/points... This will provide you with screen accurate font appearances and sizes. The biggest problem with a "pixel-perfect" browser rendering is that it will never be consistent from browser to browser. They all render ever...
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- Nathan Chase
Idea for a useful webapp: A tool for doing web page mockups that's better than Photoshop because things actually look right (because it's rendered by the browser). It doesn't need to generate good html, so absolute positioning, etc is ok.
Daniel Rowley, Laura Norvig, April Buchheit and 25 other people liked this
FrontPage? DreamWeaver? http://refreshingapps.com/showcas...
- Her Lindsay-ness
Totally brilliant idea. I write my own bad html mockups in a text editor or whatever IDE I'm playing with at the time, but a tool to ease this process would mean I could get on to abandoning the half-finished project much sooner than usual. :-)
- Slippy "Threadsbane" Lane
Um, isn't that what Balsamiq does??
- Cyndy
Please god no, don't create another "doesn't need to generate good html" code generator. srsly
- Jason Wehmhoener
Well, as for the mockups, there is really great Firefox extension called Pencil. You should try it.
- Mladen Srdić
using Cappuccino, an open source framework that makes it easy to build desktop-caliber applications that run in a web browser?
- huixing
Paul, have you checked out Axure http://www.axure.com/? I've typically used Visio or resorted to whiteboards/paper as they are easier to edit.
- Jauder Ho
Jason, I would be fine with it not generating html at all. As for Balsamiq and some of the others, the idea is actually that it would look more like the final product instead of less. Photoshop gets fonts wrong and stuff because it isn't a web browser, and yet people still keep using it, so it seems that it must have some advantage over the other tools.
- Paul Buchheit
Photoshop has two major advantages, multiple uses and precision. Photoshop can be used for more than just web mockups. One person can achieve multiple goals with Photoshop while a mockup tool just makes mockups. The second advantage is the mockups look great in presentations because the author has complete control. Photoshop mockups aren't real they're hyper-real.
- Kevin D. White
Are mockups that look exactly like the finished product even desirable? I'm reminded of the "Napkin Look & Feel" (http://napkinlaf.sourceforge.net/#Overvi...)
- Laurence Gonsalves
Depends whether your goal is to sketch and idea or create a final design. For the latter, you really do want it to be pixel perfect. For the former, you want a "wireframe" or whatever the cool kids call it these days.
- ⓞnor
What ⓞnor said. For "wireframes" a whiteboard is fine, but eventually you want pixel-perfect designs.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul, you should check out Denim, http://dub.washington.edu:2007/denim...
- imabonehead
Paul have you tried Fireworks, that's what our designers use.
- Michael
http://www.balsamiq.com I got this link from Cooper U boards a while back, and a lot of my co-workers have found it very useful. While it's not pixel perfect, it allows for really quick mock ups with the idea that the design of the end product will be done by actual designers.
- Sam Ee
http://www.balsamiq.com/product... That's a better link. The demo video sold me on the idea.
- Sam Ee
Second attempt: http://friendfeed.com/e...
- Paul Buchheit
I've been looking for something like this for years. Balsamiq is definitely a good start, but I feel like there's not quite enough depth yet. Has anyone had luck with stencils like the ones found at http://graffletopia.com/ (for Omni Graffle)?
- Sutee Dee
pixel perfect? The web isn't print. Complete control over the rendering environment is an illusion. Don't submit to it!
- Andy Bakun
Paul, have you checked out Axure RP?
- Jauder Ho
Vi is pretty good. You just write some text and point a browser at it.
- Cliff Gerrish
Try wireframing and prototyping apps - I am not sure if output is rendered at browser level though. Protoshare.com, jumpchart.com, productplanner.com
- TrafficBug
Done, already
- Ozkan Altuner
What would happen if we repeat the Stanford Prison Experiment with much younger people?
Michael Kuhn, milivella, Oaksun and 7 other people liked this
Kids would be carried to a closed place where they would be forced to sit still all day. Another group of adults would be determined to be the guards. Kids would not be allowed to do what they feel like doing, even if it were a very useful thing (e.g. reading a book of their own choosing), but they'd be forced to do what the guards tell them. There would be a pressure punishment system, publicly assigning symbols representing a kid's well-doing, per the rules laid out by the guards. This would go on day after day, for many years. Just imagine, what would happen?
- Philipp Lenssen
I participated in that for 13 years. It was pretty awful.
- Paul Buchheit
What do you mean Paul?
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
I'm guessing he was talking about schools, like Philipp was.
- Ed Millard
For only 13 years though? (er, silly me, forgot that the fact you graduate at 18 doesn't mean you spent your entire life till then in it....although it may feel like it sometimes)
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
In the U.S. 12 grades plus kindergarten is common. I assume he considered it a jail break to make it to university
- Ed Millard
I don't :( It's significantly better, yes, but still sucks if you're a minor
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
I mostly didn't show up to class in college, so it wasn't much of a prison, and I actually liked it to some extent.
- Paul Buchheit
I thought the point of the Stanford prison experiment was what it turned the "guards" into. Not sure what that says about teachers.
- Nick Lothian
For some reason teachers and parents don't become as cruel as prison guards. I think it has to do with external inputs. The Stanford experiment was essentially a closed system, while the outside world is open and might not have the same feedback loops.
- Gabe
Case wasn't that bad... we had fiber!
- Eric Borisch
I'm experiencing SUP problems. FriendFeed is reading the SUP feed, but is not immediately fetching the RSS feed.
Kol Tregaskes, Pavan, Micah Wittman and Maxamad (Amazigh) liked this
The RSS feed is http://ourdoings.com/tobedel...
- Bruce Lewis
The SUP validated. I'll post it in a comment with http: changed to p: so autolinking doesn't mess it up.
- Bruce Lewis
{"since_time":"2009-11-04T21:01:03Z","updated_time":"2009-11-04T21:03:13Z","available_periods":{"600":"p://ourdoings.com/sup.json?seconds=600","300":"p://ourdoings.com/sup.json?seconds=300","60":"p://ourdoings.com/sup.json?seconds=60"},"period":120,"updates":[["2ab","1f98"],["2aby","2009-11-04T21:02:58Z"]]}
- Bruce Lewis
fixed, I think.
- Paul Buchheit
fix confirmed. thanks paul.
- Bruce Lewis
I tend to agree with Scoble about the "forum problem", but at the same time I really like seeing comments. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think it's less of an issue if you keep groups relatively small. re: http://scobleizer.com/2009...
Marc Dong, John Serra, Bertrand Doux and 81 other people liked this
I think the current FriendFeed approach is close to optimal. Do you not see it that way?
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
FF has the inherant ability for the user to take control, both of what they see and the comments they allow. If a user is judicious in their lists and/or filters they should see mostly relevent content (IF that's what they actually want to see). The ability for a poster to moderate comments on their own post gives us the ability to avoid trolls/spam and/or steer the conversation (again,...
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- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Scoble and other "super users" have this problem much more than regular people because they have thousands of subscribers. This is also part of the reason that Twitter probably works better for celebrities -- it's more of a broadcast channel.
- Paul Buchheit
They could have a million subscribers and it wouldn't be an issue, Paul: turn off comments on his FF posts and it would be all broadcast all the time. It's the number of people they choose to subscribe TO that is the issue. To be honest, it's like someone walking into a football stadium and then complaining that it's too loud. If one chooses to follow thosuands of people one must surely expect that the amount of 'noise' is going to increase.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
One thing that was tossed around a while back was the ability to disable comments from anyone you're not subscribed to: that'd allow those with a lot of subscribers to have high-signal conversations that their subscribers can still see and gain value from.
- Mark Trapp
Perhaps he'd like a 'hide user' button similar to FB? This would prevent the "brings people into YOUR life that YOU DID NOT INVITE!" effect... of course the conversation could be rather disjointed. Maybe a small 'additional comments hidden' status that would show them when desired... Of course, without the conversations, FF == twitter?
- Eric Borisch
Paul, can you help me test something? :)
- directeur
The features that would make FF optimal would be to let users follow each other's hides and blocks. For most users this would be a nice, small improvement. For users like scobleizer it might make a huge difference. Of course, implementation details matter.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
The problem is that we don't keep groups relatively small. There are always those who are like me who like to connect, for one, but even normal people add tons of people to their groups. It's just natural. I remember I was first to add 1,000 people to my Twitter account and people thought I was weird. Now thousands of people do that.
- Robert Scoble
One thing with Facebook is they capped it at 5,000 friends. Which kept it from being used by super-connectors but also caused it to be seen as a place where you talk with just your real life friends. Now that public pages are coming on strong, we're seeing that change.
- Robert Scoble
Bruce: the FriendFeed approach is far from optimal. Many, many people told me they don't like joining a forum and like just lurking instead, which is why they chose Twitter (Tim O'Reilly is not the only one who told me this). Tim Robbins likes that on Twitter he can listen to his heros. He sees it as a learning engine. Those of us here love FriendFeed because it lets us talk. But it definitely turns off lots of people.
- Robert Scoble
Paul: the solution is to let us toggle comments on and off. Give the USER CONTROL. If they just want to listen to their friends, hide all the other noise. But then give us who like commenting ability to turn that back on.
- Robert Scoble
You have the ability to toggle comments on and off: Edit -> Disable Comments.
- Mark Trapp
Robert, comments _are_ content.
- directeur
Mark: that is on a PER ITEM BASIS though. Totally useless for what we're talking about.
- Robert Scoble
directeur: yes, but they are content a LOT of people don't want to see or deal with.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, but then you'll be a megaphone broadcasting "your" views.
- directeur
Robert has the same comments (or the same potential) on his blog as he does on FriendFeed, so I don't think it's the comments themselves. I think it's the fact that FriendFeed makes comments almost on equal level as the original post, instead of burying them way down at the bottom of a page or requiring a click to view. Out of sight, out of mind, right?
- Daniel Sims
Nothing in the API precludes someone from writing a FriendFeed client that hides all the comments so you just see a river of feed items. That's how Twhirl, AlertThingy, and all the native iPhone apps implement FriendFeed.
- Mark Trapp
I have two arms. I barely use my left one. Please cut it off!
- directeur
Turning comments off entirely would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you could authorize other users to delete comments on your items, you could minimize the forum problem.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
directeur: that's right. That's what most professional publishers want.
- Robert Scoble
I really think the "comments are awesome, why would you ever want to get rid of comments" argument falls on deaf ears at this point. The solution ought to be how to turn off comments if you want to get Scoble (or the people he's saying he represents) back on the FriendFeed train, or to say they're not worth it. I do think if it weren't for the comments, there'd be at least a half dozen other things Scoble or people like him would come up with to not like FriendFeed at this point.
- Mark Trapp
I like the idea of having another options to disable comments for people you're not subscribed to. That way you can allow conversation, but limit it to people you "know" if it makes you more comfortable or limits the noise. I think you should have the ability to set the option as a default for all new posts but be able to override it on a post-by-post basis: 1) public comments 2)...
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- Her Lindsay-ness
Her Linday-ness: I want that but it would be hard to design.
- Robert Scoble
Mark, I think you make a valid point but then the question becomes: if there are no comments, is FF still the best medium to use? If so, then the ability to turn off comments on one's entire feed should be easy enough to code and implement. I suspect, though, that all things being equal (meaning: there's no ability to comment on an item) FF would no longer be the best medium for a broadcaster.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Mark: I don't think these people will consider FriendFeed at this point. Too much momentum over on Twitter. Look at the news brands: http://twitter.com/Scoblei... you're not going to get them to switch off of Twitter at this point. Sorry. That game is over.
- Robert Scoble
I think the real game is how does Facebook evolve?
- Robert Scoble
The real game is an open decentralized solution. yes, I'm a dreamer.
- directeur
Which leads everyone to wonder why you're trying to nitpick a feature like this, or base your argument on the lack of the feature. The real reason why you (and others like you) aren't into FriendFeed isn't because of the forum problem or the lack of a feature, it's because you think Twitter is better and that's where everyone is. That's fine: that's a great argument. The rest of it is inconsequential to that argument, and wouldn't invalidate it even if you got your way. So what's the point?
- Mark Trapp
I've been talking with a lot of brands and celebrities and regular people. For public studying they like Twitter better. That has Facebook wondering what it will be in the future.
- Robert Scoble
Mark: sorry, but I spent two years talking to thousands of people about FriendFeed and I'm just passing along why they didn't like it. Take that feedback or leave it. Your choice.
- Robert Scoble
Mark: did you speak at dozens of conferences about FriendFeed and Twitter? Did you show hundreds of tech influentials FriendFeed and listen to their feedback?
- Robert Scoble
But your feedback doesn't correlate to the real reason why you, and the people you say you represent, are saying why you won't ever use FriendFeed. You said there's nothing anyone could do to get people to use FriendFeed.
- Mark Trapp
Mark: if I want to listen to ONLY tech influentials, I can on Twitter. I can't on Facebook. I can't on FriendFeed. http://twitter.com/Scoblei...
- Robert Scoble
Robert, if you're going to pull the "don't you know who I am?" crap, it falls on deaf ears. Let's have a constructive conversation on what you're trying to talk about.
- Mark Trapp
Can't you make lists in FF?
- Dragon Goldmaple
Sure you can: you can import feeds and lists on FriendFeed.
- Mark Trapp
Mark: times change and at this point it would be hard to get anyone to take FriendFeed seriously. That said, I believe that it IS possible to move people from Facebook to Twitter or Twitter to Facebook, so THAT is the real battlefront.
- Robert Scoble
any comment thread about 20+ without threading and community promotion/demotion becomes difficult to participate in (for me). Though there is a difference between discussing the radiator on a 94 Subaru and the nature of discussion forums.
- Hayes Haugen
Robert: is the problem really comments or the fact that each time an item gets commented, the items pops back at the top of the list? Regarding the noise, I think that the "problem" with friendfeed is that it was much easier for people to plug in automated feeds and that as a result, there was less of an explicit action. I do not know how other people feel about this but I really miss...
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- Edwin Khodabakchian
Mark: OK, show me your public list the way I did on Twitter. You can't do that here, sorry.
- Robert Scoble
Hayes: BING BING BING.
- Robert Scoble
Ok, so it's not about who you read, it's who you can show that you are reading.
- Dragon Goldmaple
Bing goes the internet! lol
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Sure Twitter has a lot of momentum now, but how quickly the winds change. Frankly, it's a shame that FF is going to be neglected... I wish that someone with as much motivation and insight as Paul and the original team could take it over now that FB has consumed them. There is still SO MUCH potential in this platform that it is depressing to see it squandered. @Robert - I don't think it...
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- Her Lindsay-ness
Robert, I don't use public lists: I believe you read my blog post about why I don't. But Hutch Carpenter does, and here's his FriendFeed public list on Innovation Management: http://friendfeed.com/innovat...
- Mark Trapp
Robert, who do you call "influentials"? Do they talk "tech" all the day? Isn't it unhuman? Let's go back to spring/summer 2008, and redefine "smart" for me, please :)
- directeur
Edwin: the problem is on FriendFeed it has the chat problem -- it gets noisy and gets noisy fast.
- Robert Scoble
directeur: influentials are people who influence. I picked them. Shoot me.
- Robert Scoble
The noise is largely proportional to the circles you're in. If you put yourself in a huge room, it will be a loud room.
- Kevin Fox
Robert, do you remember the "MOAR NOISE" phrase? It was THE reason why I built NoiseRiver. Filters, I used to say when you were always saying: MORE NOISE!
- directeur
Kevin: exactly. But on FriendFeed the room gets big VERY QUICKLY because as more people join they drag in their followers with them.
- Robert Scoble
Facebook has the same problem. While we're chatting here, tons of tech news diversity have swooped by.
- Robert Scoble
So Robert, should there be something built in to "warn" others of becoming "chatty". Something that says: "This comment is irrelevant. You may post again when you have something relevant and germane to our discussion"? So WHO makes those distinctions and judgements?
- Melanie Reed
Compare this chat to http://twitter.com/Scoblei... which one brought more information to you? The chat is more fun, cause we're engaged, but it's noisy and if you don't care about it, a waste of time.
- Robert Scoble
Melanie: in a chat room you can't control people that way.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: True, but [big number]*[average number] is far larger than [average number]*[average number]
- Kevin Fox
Hayes you are correct. Slashdot has actually had the best discussion forums for more than ten years because it has threading and community moderation. Its not a trendy social networking site though so no one notices. If you had a social network site where you post topics but with Slashdot like forums it would rock. Only down side is moderators tend to inject bias but /. has good signal after moderation kicks in
- Ed Millard
Robert, I don't care about more information. I have more than enough. :)
- Melanie Reed
Does it really have to be one or the other Robert?
- Internet's Tad
from fftogo
(Where you (scoble) are the big number)
- Kevin Fox
Kevin: the problem with FriendFeed is if you and Melanie were having a conversation it would be pretty small, right? But I follow you. The second I touch your conversation it gets big.
- Robert Scoble
If only someone could figure out how to make a room that gets big very quickly appeal to broadcasters...
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
This problem doesn't happen on the private Facebook because you have two-way friending there and a cap of 5,000. But on Facebook Pages? Absolutely. Noise baby noise!
- Robert Scoble
Bruce: broadcasters don't like any of this because there's no way to monetize. Why do you think Arrington really hated this?
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I don't care about more information. I have more than enough. :) What I would like is what Tad is implying in his comment. You know you can have "...two opposites that have learned how to blaze together" ;) And excuse me, but is wrong with a big conversation?
- Melanie Reed
"The chat is more fun, cause we're engaged, but it's noisy and if you don't care about it, a waste of time. " If someone doesn't care about it on FF, they can hide it and not see it again. Problem solved.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Chatting is not intended to provide information. It is like planning -- it is the process of chatting that is what is useful not the words that are spoken/written.
- Brian Sullivan
Thank you, Tina! and Brian!
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: I love big conversations. That's why I loved FriendFeed. But most people aren't like me.
- Robert Scoble
Tina: there are so many things going by on my screen in FriendFeed that hiding them all would take all day long.
- Robert Scoble
Robert -- why is it that you think that people are like you and things should be done for your needs?
- Brian Sullivan
FF is too busy!!
- Joe Silence is not dead
Brian: again, it's not about me.
- Robert Scoble
Robert one word: APML. I used to yell it back in 2008, no one cared. You want "filters" by personal interest.
- directeur
FreiendFeed sold ME on it two years ago. I've been trying to sell others on it. The feedback I'm giving is from OTHERS.
- Robert Scoble
The Forum Problem is a problem?
- teh Dork Knight
directeur: APML will never work.
- Robert Scoble
oh dear, don't hate the messenger.
- Joe Silence is not dead
Robert: who are these "others" and what are their numbers?
- Melanie Reed
Paul nailed it - Twitter is a broadcast channel. Massive amounts of subscriptions are fine there - it's all about reach. But if you want discovery, if you want to engage, then FriendFeed and FoaF is where it's all. They're NOT the same. One you can subscribe/follow as many as you want, in the other, subscription abuse will cripple your ability to view and interact.
- AJ Kohn
Finally, a thread on this subject that makes sense.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Threading may or may not help... it seemed to hurt with GoogleWave... it was so hard to follow all the tangents... of course without threading a lot of the tangents just get lost anyway. I guess I have given up on trying to catch everything... If it's important and I didn't see it the first time, eventually the concept will bubble up enough times for me to notice. That's one NICE thing about following lots of people and participating in lots of convos.
- Her Lindsay-ness
why won't APML, or something like it, work? i missed that memo
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Robert, go say this to Last.fm or the BBC :-) Smart recommendation engines are the future
- directeur
FriendFeed may make some audience/discussion leak out, but also makes audience leak in through seeing what your friends are talking about. Arrington may be mostly concerned about the leak out. Other broadcasters may be looking for the leak in.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Marshall, me neither! :)
- directeur
Also, the meta around the content in FF (likes, comments) is what helps turns random data into information. It's annotated and qualified.
- AJ Kohn
Lindsay: true
- Hayes Haugen
Thank you, AJ, yes. And you can sort that out when you want to on your own time. That's the utility of it.
- Melanie Reed
Perhaps one solution to the 'forum problem' is to allow posters to selectively choose who can participate in the discussion but still be viewable to the public.
- Rodfather
So maybe the real question is, why do some people prefer conversation over broadcasting and vice versa? Is the broadcast-mentality simply a matter of popularity (the inability to reciprocate all the connections, so just broadcast instead) or is the effort it takes to connect with people on a more meaningful basis a major turn-off? Or is it just the tools that people use and what makes it easier for them?
- Her Lindsay-ness
Rodfather, this will bring wars. Trust me. I'm not a commercial object. So you want to SHOUT and ask me to close my mouth? :) Moreover, close comments, other threads will be started and the noise you wanted to avoid will be even greater. The Streisand Effect, anyone? :)
- directeur
For example: this discussion has 80+ comments and rolling. I don't mind that at all. I am engaged. I am also updating a web page on our web site as I do it and switching over to grade 30 some PRF's for students on the play Macbeth. I am not having any trouble with the "forum problem" or any "chattiness" I learned the "ropes" of FF when I joined and accepted that it as it was.
- Melanie Reed
To me FF turns data (the river of content out there) into information (the good stuff - explained). The tool set FF provides is superior in this way - but it takes time to dial in the right set of filters to apply to the data set (which changes!) and many simply overwhelm the great filtering system they've provided.
- AJ Kohn
A lot of people don't want to put in the time and effort to make the tool work for them like you, AJ and Melanie. I can empathize with that. I think it also has to serve their base inclination of either broadcasting or conversation, and the tool choice is also influenced by whether they already are part of a community on it or not. Most people won't leave their community even if it us using the less appropriate tool for their inclination.
- Her Lindsay-ness
directeur, then those people can make their own thread and allow everyone to comment. I'm thinking of in case there's a roundtable event where certain 'experts' in a field can have a thread to discuss a topic among themselves without worrying about others cluttering the thread.
- Rodfather
AJ, indeed - the task is to build new concepts with and for filters. Filters, not to shut stuff out, but to mix it better to create a constant flow of narratives.
- David Bausola
AJ, is it more that FF provides the platform for the users to turn that data into information? The users are integral to FF. Now with Twitter you can program a week's worth of tweets (I have heard) but I don't wish to do that. Facebook... you could almost do that-although it does have engagement -you could certainly use it without. But FF runs on an engagement engine
- Melanie Reed
Marshall: I don't trust automatic systems to guess what I'm going to be interested in next. Never seen a system yet that works. But we should debate this.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, we should debate it! The robot that makes all my decisions for me says it's quite likely I would enjoy doing that! ;)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
That's getting into intelligent agents and AI once full blown
- Melanie Reed
if you ask me, and you don't, the problem has always been lack of comment moderation and threading. Too many users isn't a problem if no one sees them. Slashdot was one of the first doing this, using an interface which is actually very similar to FF and it seems to work there.
- Vincent van Wylick
Web tech needs to look outside their dev environments for richer influences in filter design: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- David Bausola
Is the problem that Robert is looking for a single service solution. I see the same 'content' on Twitter and FriendFeed but I scan Twitter for 'raw information' and go to FriendFeed to 'discuss' it with others. I watch the news at home on TV but I talk about it with my friends or work colleagues around the water cooler or coffee shop table. I am comfortable existing in several spaces
- Johnny Worthington
from iPhone
@Lindsay: I don't know. I'd rather educate people on the power that FF can provide with a little effort. Or, that it actually doesn't take LOTS of subscriptions. Max it at Dunbar's number (which is what I do for my home feed) and you'd be fine.
- AJ Kohn
+++ Johnny Scotty would be proud of you: The right tool for the job
- Melanie Reed
@David: Exactly! My home feed - I tweak it. I use people like Robert and Rob Diana and Michael Fruchter and Anthony Citrano and Thomas Hawk and numerous others to bring a mix of themes and concepts into my feed.
- AJ Kohn
So are we saying that its not the tool itself...but HOW it is or is not used that maxes utility? If so I agree!
- Melanie Reed
@Melanie: Yes, the users are the key. The users are the filters. http://www.blindfiveyearold.com/soylent... And the engagement provides a rich annotation and a secondary level of filtering. So yes, users and their engagement absolutely matter.
- AJ Kohn
Sure, yes, how you use it maxes utility. But it also helps if it's suited to how you WANT to use it... if not it's a struggle. And people don't like to struggle, even if it's possible to make something do what you want it to... easier to use another tool if it fits your purpose better. FriendFeed fits my purpose so it's not a struggle for me... but for someone with a more broadcasting mindset than a conversational one, it's going to be tougher.
- Her Lindsay-ness
Vincent, most long-time FriendFeeders have spoken strongly against any sort of moderation/rating system for comments. No one wants mobs of people trying to control what other people can see like what happens on Digg. It's why every time the topic of 'Unlike' comes up, people rise up to talk it down because it creates an aura of competition and negativity.
- Akiva Moskovitz
AJ, yes! users are the filters.
- Melanie Reed
Akiva +++
- Melanie Reed
Anybody use Mailchimp here? It is tangential to the discussion. They have a cracker jack built in user educational system that monitors and makes usage suggestions.
- Melanie Reed
Is lunchtime finally over yet?
- Hayes Haugen
I'd love to peek in on the recommendation engine discussions. I'm in the 'they don't work camp' myself but I'm open to being convinced and perhaps technology has approached a point where it could work but ... from working in eCommerce I've seen it fail time and time again. Random factors, contextual issues etc.
- AJ Kohn
@Melanie: Know of Mailchimp but don't use. The 'monitor and makes usage suggestions' sounds interesting though.
- AJ Kohn
AJ, that's because the devs didn't pay attention when their instructors (ahem) were teaching it to them. ;)
- Melanie Reed
Another point I'd like to make is that no one is forcing anyone to read the comments here. If people want a broadcast-only medium, it's fairly easy not to click on the 'x more comments' link. Unfortunately, Robert makes a painful observation: he played FriendFeed cheerleader for two years and the people who needed to take the bait didn't or did but then cut loose. That pretty much means...
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- Akiva Moskovitz
Johnny: I am comfortable with all of these too, but it's not about me. But, anyway, the business battle now is between Facebook and Twitter and it'll be interesting to see the choices that Paul's team makes and how those compare with the team NK over at Twitter is making. Then the market will choose which one is best.
- Robert Scoble
Akiva: If I were at Facebook and knew that they could turn into the next MySpace I'd put every single engineering minute onto Facebook. Wouldn't you?
- Robert Scoble
Like I said before, there is still SO MUCH potential here... and it's a shame to see it squandered. I think there are a lot of ways it could be taken to the next level. For sure it could be a contender to Twitter with a few enhancements, but fat chance of that now that there is no longer a dev team, and that it's "parent" is a competitor.
- Her Lindsay-ness
Robert, here's a good example: You want to debate intelligent recommendation agents? Allright, I know that you know Chris Saad. Chris is a very cool guy in fact! But do you know Deniz Oktar? Deniz, who is not as popular as Chris, is a SMART Turkish guy too and works on the same subject. If you limit your view to "popular" people, you'll definitely miss him. And debating such a subject without alternative ideas likes Deniz's or humbly mine, won't be perfect :)
- directeur
Not sure, Robert. Is turning into the next MySpace a good thing for you or a bad thing? For me, it'd be bad.
- Akiva Moskovitz
Akiva, go take a look at (and experience) mailchimp's monitor and make usage suggestion system. It's adaptable for a number of scenarios
- Melanie Reed
I think the business battle (other than the marketing to consumers end of it) will be occupied and won by Wave. Facebook, Twitter and FriendFeed are mere toys in that world.
- Brian Sullivan
Melanie, I'm not complaining about a solution that MailChimp could provide. I'm fine with FriendFeed as it is (for the most part).
- Akiva Moskovitz
directeur: most people choose news brands to curate and find new people that will have something valuable to say. See http://twitter.com/Scoblei... for instance. That already is TOO MUCH so telling people to get more people or more things into their lives just isn't going to cut it for most people.
- Robert Scoble
Allowing public panels where only the influential can talk certainly would have a useful role, Its just like panels at conferences. A lot of people would no doubt like to just follow the influential in these forums. On the down side it would make the already influential more so and it would probably lose some audience if it was done a lot because there is no democratic engagement. The people who don't spend all their time cultivating their fame and networks do say interesting things too.
- Ed Millard
directeur: and, anyway. if he's in Turkey and not in San Francisco he's far less likely to influence tech in a major way. So I disagree.
- Robert Scoble
(FYI - look at this conversation and tell me where else anything like this could take place.)
- AJ Kohn
No, we're completely boring and worthless, Ed. We're not worth paying attention to. I mean, who wants to see a picture of our kids? ;)
- Her Lindsay-ness
IRC or a phpBB messageboard!
- Joe Silence is not dead
Akiva, I meant for those who might struggle "getting" FF but would enjoy and benefit from it once they do. There's an "on ramp" to FF that rivals North Corridor Dallas coming out of an apt complex on to 50mph+ 4 lane traffic. Some of us are better at that than others, but you still see a lot of cars on the road. :)
- Melanie Reed
There has also been a lack of creative uses using the FF tool sets. Good uses of the tools inspires participation + it's easy to criticize -- harder to create.
- David Bausola
@Robert: Whoa, whoa. Weren't you arguing that adding 8K new people from Twitter Lists was a good thing? Is more better, or worse?
- AJ Kohn
+++David
- Melanie Reed
@David: Good point, no real developer platform. That's been a big boon for both Facebook and Twitter.
- AJ Kohn
Robert, yet he DOES. You just aren't into that speciality :) If you think that every "tech" thing must happen in SF you really miss A LOT.
- directeur
Woah, Robert, so you are saying anyone who doesn't live in SF doesn't count in a tech discussion? That's a little self centered isn't it?
- Ed Millard
I understand it but I really dislike any discussions where the topic seems to be "how can we turn this thing that the people who use it like into something that people who don't use it and would only use it for selfish reasons like?" Screw them. If something's not as "techy" as Slashdot and it's more chaotic because the comments aren't threaded like Slashdot and there's no moderation...
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- Mark H
Lindsay, I want to see a picture of your kids. I only wish I had some to show back. ;)
- Melanie Reed
Ed: you are NOT a careful reader.
- Robert Scoble
Robert's not saying that those ideas can't happen, or that a true revelation can't come from elsewhere, but that ... the likelihood that someone outside of SF to influence tech is less. The Capital of the Internet is SF. I'd agree with that. But that doesn't mean it'll always stay that way, nor does it mean that tech from other areas can't be influential. (least that's how I read it.)
- AJ Kohn
OK I just read it, you still said if you don't live in SF there is very little chance you will have any influence on tech. If you have no influence then you either have nothing to say on the subject, or even if you do have something to say it wont matter.
- Ed Millard
Hrm, I think the whole thing is overblown. My personal FF landing page still has as much utility as my first day (if not more). Bleh, whatever.
- Chieze Okoye
@AJ The FF API is beautiful, I don't think dev communities saw the richness that you can create with the aggregation of FF streams. A few valley PR oriented bloggers pushed 'conversation' as FF's 'killer app' - whereas, the realtime aggregation streams and republishing of content is radical and unique.
- David Bausola
Well I'm pretty sure all the people in Seattle, Toronto, Paris, London, Moscow,Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Beijing, Bangalore, Boulder, etc. probably disagree
- Ed Millard
@David: I'll take your word on the API and wouldn't doubt it given the FF team's chops. But fostering usage, that community - that's where things may have gotten shaky. Too few people leveraging it. It could still resolve back to an inability to really grasp what FF can do for them.
- AJ Kohn
AJ, I think you're on to something. Back in the day, usability (including general user and disabled) use to be a well-known topic. Universities made it a part of the curriculum. Everything before and including e-commerce got the once over. But it occurs that the latest generation (including GLS and SM) have outpaced the community standards for usability. It's really the wild west again-...
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- Melanie Reed
Akiva: I suspect the noise problem Robert's describing from others isn't that comment threads get too long. It's that items keep popping to the top as new comments show up, when they don't want to see the new comments. I don't see any way around that except a separate client. It would take too much away from the FriendFeed experience for the default interface not to work this way.
- Bruce Lewis
Mark, I didn't mean to suggest /. is the only solution to the forum problem. If you have really big forum discussions /. is time tested way to control noise and raise the signal level. On the other hand it would probably be a horrible solution for intimate and friendly discussions among friends. Someone earlier Lindsey? kind of had a good suggestion. When you make a post have a row of option buttons and let the poster set the kind of forum for that thread, broadcast, panel, open, modded, thredded, not..
- Ed Millard
Ed: I specifically said "far less likely." I didn't say there is very little chance. But, seriously, this is an argument for another thread. Lots of people think they have influence but actually don't have as much. For instance, I love to think I have influence on Facebook but I'm far less likely to influence that then Paul Buchheit is. Facts are facts.
- Robert Scoble
Chieze glad you like FriendFeed. Me too. It's awesome. But that doesn't mean much to the rest of the world.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, how often do you use "Add This"? It's germane :)
- Melanie Reed
OK we will agree to disagree on that one and drop it. I've lived in the bay off and on, I think there are pluses and minuses to being there.
- Ed Millard
Melanie: "Add This" being the "Add Photos" at top of FriendFeed? Not as much as I should.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: No this service: http://www.addthis.com/ This is fast becoming the SM share button for many websites. Ours uses it. And FF is on it. Take a look at the entire list
- Melanie Reed
FriendFeed's feature set will mean a lot to the rest of the world when it's fully integrated into Facebook in 2011.
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: I don't think it'll take that long.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, you may be right, in which case FriendFeed is a relevant thing to look at. Maybe it isn't actually too far ahead of its time.
- Bruce Lewis
Just like Lisp can make you a better programmer in other languages, FriendFeed can make you a better thinker when writing about other social networks. Popularity isn't everything, even for a blogger.
- Bruce Lewis
You mean, it's not all about attention? :D
- Her Lindsay-ness
Who really knows why Twitter got all the traction? Does Scoble? I very much doubt it. I think there's a great effort going into finding a logical explanation for Twitter massive success and FriendFeeds more modest gains. My own best guess is that it has more to do with the madness of crowds than it does with any limitation in FriendFeed. Twitter had a decent enough foothold already by...
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- David Hall
from FreshFeed
Twitter got the traction because Twitter's easy. It requires very little effort to get into and it requires even less to participate. It's the same reason why YouTube comments are the cesspool of the Internet and MetaFilter's comments are not: anyone can sit around and watch videos all day and then trash talk them but you make people pay to comment and you'll weed out the chaff almost...
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- Akiva Moskovitz
David: I was there from early days on Twitter and studied how it grew. I know more than you might think. Remember, I was the first person to follow 1,000 people there and I was the 13,800ish user to join.
- Robert Scoble
This link is the most illuminating one on FF traction at the time of the buyout. It indicates FF was just starting to regain traction after it had stalled out for a while and it suggests if maybe FF had stuck it out a while longer things might have changed. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- Ed Millard
Twitter got hot in the early days because of Leo Laporte and because of SXSW and because it was goofy fun way for tech influencers to talk to their friends. It just kept growing from there. Another factor in addition to simplicity (Akiva's right there) is the API. Tons of clients and tools and services are built on top of it. FriendFeed got nearly none in comparison.
- Robert Scoble
The difference may be luck of the draw ( a la Gladwell)
- Brian Sullivan
People had to build tons of clients, tools and services for Twitter because the default web UI is so bad.
- Ed Millard
Ed: what that graph doesn't show you is what we now know. Google Wave sucked a lot of attention of geek influentials away (IE Hype) and Facebook's Connect is running away with another game. I went into FriendFeed the week they decided to sell and asked them because I knew Twitter had new features coming that would make FriendFeed less interesting. I think the FriendFeed team looked at the competition and decided to fold.
- Robert Scoble
How could I have ignored the API? It's like Firefox's plug-ins: it's the only thing that makes Twitter usable for many users. Without it, they wouldn't touch it. Heck, if it weren't for Tweetie 2, I wouldn't touch it either.
- Akiva Moskovitz
And Facebook's Connect platform is getting incorporated everywhere. I think FriendFeed was hoping to become part of the general web, like what we did over on http://building43.com and that just wasn't going to happen because Facebook's Connect platform is rocking and rolling now. In fact, I made a fundamental blunder by not going with Facebook on Building43. If I had, our traffic would have been much higher than it is now.
- Robert Scoble
You can be sure that once CNN and other assorted media outlets started plugging Twitter it was game over. Once the band wagon was rolling every "personality" was going to hop on. It is a little disturbing that Miley Cyrus has now joined the "everyone should delete their Twitter accounts" camp.
- Ed Millard
David Hall +1 Steven Berlin Johnson would be a good reference - the persistence of babble is incredible valuable in phatic communications. FF, through the web interface hides a lot of that. Instead, the babble was more bookmark centric and less about 'having a sandwich'. That's why you have, on the whole, better conversation threads on FF, and ending up having to duck out of the way of...
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- David Bausola
Disturbing REALLY????? My word, Miley is absolutely right <sarcasm/>
- Roberto Bonini
To paraphrase Louis Gray's wife, "nerds in startups are fickle". I speculate they had a lot of self doubt when they stalled out prior to that up tick, and decided to sell just about the time FF was starting to take off again. Someone waves $50 million at you during a period of self questioning that is a potent motivator, I think Zuckerberg saw that and he did nip a potential competitor in the bud.
- Ed Millard
But all the above comments is about public sharing. I use FF a lot for project planning and development - it's fast - you can discuss items with good archive search, and you can post media. I wonder how many people use FF in this way, and ignore the public babble?
- David Bausola
Having read most of this thread (and Robert, comments are VERY valueble) the"forum problem" is NP-complete. Comments are valuable becuase seeing people reason is often just as enlightening, if not more so, than the original information.
- Roberto Bonini
Ed - mind you, there's only a few ways you can get to the helm of the FB API design and product development. :) Who's to say this isn't all going according to plan?
- David Bausola
Roberto: me and you agree on that. In my research most people do not. They see these things as noise. But, if you make the comments toggle on and off we BOTH win! Plus, comments REALLY help search!
- Robert Scoble
Ed: correction, it was $50 million.
- Robert Scoble
Robert you keep talking about "your research". Is this anything more than anecdotal conversations?
- Brian Sullivan
David, Well maybe Paul and Co. are doing a trojan horse on FB but what I've read about Zuckerberg he doesn't seem likely to relinquish control of anything he cares about and I am skeptical you are going to turn FB in to FF with their entrenched user base.
- Ed Millard
@Scoble you're arguing from authority again. I think on a broadcast platform like Twitter that's an easier one to pull off. On Twitter it's a big "so what" if you've posted a load of BS because most people will simply miss any challenge to your "content." Post the same on FriendFeed and you get tackled and you get tackled in public. Reasonable enough grounds to explain your current stance and certainly as good as any reason I've heard you put forward yourself.
- David Hall
Robert, I stand corrected, and it is corrected, this editing your posts thing is one of FF's scarier features.
- Ed Millard
OPEN QUESTION: Is FF gaining or losing users? I see very little here now - but I'm told user numbers are going through the roof.
- Jim Connolly
Ed: tell me one thing. What's the biggest difference between FF and FB? There's already not as much difference as you'd might think. The one thing I miss over there? Real time search.
- Robert Scoble
Twitter got big because it's about ego. Look at me, Me, ME! Twitter flourished because people like to talk about themselves. (FF is not, which is why it hasn't gained nearly as much traction.) It was developed as an update service. It has evolved into ... something else. As for comments, they are invaluable.
- AJ Kohn
and the ability to edit comments, moderate comments, import all my feeds, bumping up of older posts
- Holden Page
from IM
Jim: user numbers are not going through the roof here. I don't know anyone credible who has said that. The registered numbers are going up, but the active numbers are going down.
- Robert Scoble
AJ: FriendFeed is just as much about ego as Twitter is. If not more so.
- Robert Scoble
Ed, the goal is to design influentially for the web. Paul B does seem to give that ethos in his startup camp talks and general interviews. I would think FB would warm to that ideology.
- David Bausola
Very true. Robert.
- Roberto Bonini
@Robert: How? Seriously, I'd like to hear your opinion.
- AJ Kohn
Robert: In other words, as people like yourself, Arrington and even those little guys like myself with a couple of thousand subscribers leave - we're being replaced by less active users. Makes sense. I used to check in on and off all day. Now, 2/3 times a week,
- Jim Connolly
Jim: not true. I don't see a lot of people joining in here and I'm watching it closely. Sorry. More people are leaving the back door than are coming in the front.
- Robert Scoble
To me the two big ones are 1) perception that it more walled garden networks and not as open though certainly it has avenues which are more open like FF 2) its home to massive quantities of apps, games, spam from people trying to get rich that hold no interest to me, though obviously many others like them. FF is probably just overlooked by that crowd, if it were bigger it would be infected with all that crap too. FF seems to mostly just be good people from my limited time here.
- Ed Millard
All User Centric Design is modeled around the ego. Good software design keeps that in mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- David Bausola
AJ: Twitter is, for many people, about business now. Not ego at all. News brands: http://twitter.com/#... no ego. Tech companies: http://twitter.com/Scoblei... No ego. But here? It's ALL about ego!
- Robert Scoble
David is right.
- Robert Scoble
On Twitter the default is to show number you follow, number of followers, number of Tweets. That's all playing on ego and popularity. Nearly everything (even lists) is geared to stimulate a innate need to acquire more of something as a way to ... validate contribution or perceived influence or authority. FF does not show this in the default mode.
- AJ Kohn
Companies and brands are the most aggressive form of ego there is, and they usually are direct reflections of the ego of the company's CEO.
- Ed Millard
Alright Robert. In order to reduce the signal to noise ratio, we can do one of two things, we can use "Likes" to filter the comment stream. If I Like more posts from Robert than i do from LG, Roberts comments appear but not LG's. We can use semantics to (somehow) sort the thread and show comments relevant to the original post. (simply dumping noise isin't a solution - not all noise is noise all the time. Likewise, increasing signal in an echo chamber is fruitless)
- Roberto Bonini
@Robert: Oh, I think Twitter is a great business tool! It's a marketers paradise. But I'm not sure that's what most people believe it to be. People still think they're going to get some sort of social dialog there. I think it's why Twitter churn is so high. People get it thinking it'll be one thing and quickly find out it's another.
- AJ Kohn
+1 AJ, there are some people that use Twitter in awesome, constructive, useful, ways like Tim O'Reilly and Jay Rosen but a lot of people its pure self promotion. As for news outlets using twitter they are going to go wherever the eyeballs are, and they will go to multiple networks not just Twitter. Those are pure broadcast, no engagement, they aren't really a ringing endorsement of why Twitter is great.
- Ed Millard
I'd bet FF *would* take off (but be worse for it) if it listed how many times the content I fed got liked and commented on, and that (along with subscribers etc.) were all listed right there at the top of my home feed. And that upon signing up, I'd get suggested users based on subscriptions but also who got the most likes and comments. Yet, I don't think that's conducive to what FF really excels at.
- AJ Kohn
@Robert, biggest difference between Facebook and Friendfeed - reciprocal connections. Without a doubt. The apps, the ads, other stuff, is true, but for me the central difference, and the thing that betrays a fundamental difference of worldview between the two apps is whether or not you can follow someone's content without them having to follow you back. You can only do that on Facebook...
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- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
@Ed: I realized a long time ago that Twitter was a big Internet megaphone. And if you could get a lot of people to 'listen' to that megaphone well, that's powerful stuff. It's about Reach. Twitter gives your message reach. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see it as ... transforming.
- AJ Kohn
Those who study the art of propaganda consider reach to be everything, because following reach is influence, and following influence is control. TV is losing its reach in the Internet era so most of those "brands" and "personalites" are rushing to find a way to regain it, enter Twitter and FB. They are better because they are bidirectional.
- Ed Millard
*Noise* :)
- ashish
@Ed: I'd be interested to see more on how reach leads to influence. It often does but ... not always. Plenty of multi-million dollar ad campaigns in the graveyard as examples. Reach + ? = influence.
- AJ Kohn
Ed I think you're right. I caught that TC piece at the time too. Seems to me that the FriendFeed guys had a bit of a crisis of confidence and grabbed lunch while it was on offer. In any case I always figured FriendFeed as a place to graduate to once you'd rammed up against Twitters limitations. And, as I'm sure you know, that doesn't take long. That's how I got here. I was actually on...
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- David Hall
You don't have influence until you have reach so its the prerequisite. Then it a matter of how effectively you craft the message and push the buttons in your target audience. Some people are good at that part, some aren't, some fail, some succeed.
- Ed Millard
Robert, I just wonder. Isn't twitter more about consuming the information and FF more about sharing and discussing? Look at http://twitter.com/Scoblei.... What can anyone add to that or comment on that? I agree it is getting a lot noisy in here (exhibit, this post). But not all posts will be this noisy I think.
- Amit
+1 Jandy, she answered Robert's challenge to me better than I did.
- Ed Millard
@Ed: I'm not sure. New memes start with someone small sometimes. Say ... keyboard cat ... and someone who has reach communicates that message and it goes big. So who has the influence? The creator of keyboard cat or the person to has the reach to make it go big? I find it very interesting.
- AJ Kohn
Jandy: +100. You just nailed for me why I like Twitter and FriendFeed better than Facebook. Agreed.
- Robert Scoble
Robertt, maybe this post and the scads of comments prove your point, but maybe your point is limited to your own experience due to your unique position in tech. You speak, noise follows. But that does not make Friendfeed irrelevant or useless for the average or even just left or right of average user. You have a unique experience that is going to color any forum you put your time into....
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- Martha
+++Jandy
- Melanie Reed
Well put, Jandy.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I think the forum problem is not as big in smaller more intimate groups. Recently I've been very active in the DMU group here that includes a lot of folks who've migrated here from Flickr. The relevancy is much more higher in these venues than in the main feed because it's a smaller controlled experience. I do wish though that groups were more full featured like the rest of FF though....
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- Thomas Hawk
oh of course and photo voting pools for groups would by awesome too. ;)
- Thomas Hawk
Lists are not enough. Twitter, FF and other social networks need tagging by default, then filter on list + tag. That's the element that would kill the noise and turn them into interest networks.
- howard shippin
from BuddyFeed
Martha: you might have a point if we were just talking about me. But we're not. So, try again. Again, I've talked with thousands of people about these things. They tell me they don't like the noise that public forums bring. I've been doing this for 25 years and this isn't the first time I've heard this pushback. Facebook, by the way, on its iPhone app, handles it perfectly: it hides all...
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- Robert Scoble
You all keep referring to this as either chat or comments when actually its a discussion. I think that the ability to discuss anything on Friend Feed or anywhere else for that matter IS where you learn the most. I'm not techy like most of you, I'm just an ordinary 'average' user, but I see twitter more as a 'newsreel' of info, shallow but instant, whereas Friend Feed is more a 'thrashing out of ideas and opnions, and is therefore all the richer for it.
- Sandra Large
Sandra: chat/discussion/forum/comments are all pretty much the same thing. Yes, the two are different. There CAN be lots of learning here, it's just that this is a lot noiser than other online things in some ways.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, about noise: when you or other tech influencers introduce FriendFeed, you show the things you're excited about, which tend to be big and noisy, right? And if you're the first person someone follows on FF, they're going to get a noisy first impression. The slower growth that doesn't come through tech influencers may have less of a back door.
- Bruce Lewis
And about the 25+-year-old forum problem: Moderated Usenet was great until moderators slacked off. Decentralized moderation fixes that, at least for small discussions. Larger discussions can lead to whack-a-mole (though I notice this one hasn't), but with one of the suggestions I made earlier in this conversation the number of whackers could scale with the number of moles.
- Bruce Lewis
Moderation = censorship. Censorship sucks. Give the users control to hide and block. The less censorship the better.
- Thomas Hawk
@Paul - what about a view to only see the user's posts/content ie no comments of others and no likes => then it becomes twitter like
- Kishore Balakrishnan
Come on, it's hardly messier than Facebook, since the default view only includes the first and last comment. Basically the gist I'm getting is that people who think they're important don't want to listen to people who they don't think are important. Such is the human race, I suppose.
- Victor Ganata
+++Victor hammer meets nail.
- David Hall
Robert said "FB iPhone app ... hides all comments with an arrow that you can then use to expand the comments. That is so much better than this mess here that it isn't funny". Robert, I must be missing your point because FF also hides most comments until you expand them because you want to read them... Don't want to read FF comments, don't expand them, problem solved. Or are you saying FF is a "mess" because it shows first and last comment?
- Ed Millard
235 comments! I really don't want to expand *that* on FF! Is this a pain-point for anyone else?
- Space Cowboy
Not for me. If I'm interested enough in the topic or dialog I'll click the time stamp and open the post page to read everything. The text amount is comparable to a medium length blog post: if I have the time to read that I have the time to read this if it interests me.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
A typical blog post? Dragging & copying the comments only (which took about a min. of scrolling) produced 9200 words and 23 pages of text. Blog posts also tend to have a more easily read narrative.
- Vincent van Wylick
The problem is for big conversations like this one you need threading and maybe moderation, but for more normal conversations that are smaller flat is better. Allowing a switch between the two adds complexity. For big conversations FF lacks the button to reply to a specific poster so the viewer can thread, at least as an option. Much of the noise level in this conversation is due to people having to manually try to fake threading.
- Ed Millard
The threading vs. flat conversation is interesting to me - we've tried multiple times to put Disqus or Intense Debate on a film blog I write for, and every time we meet huge resistance to threading ESPECIALLY on long threads. People say they have a lot of difficulty finding the new comments when they aren't all at the top or bottom.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Why can't there be a summary fly-out with timestamps based on response rate to single comments and a "last comment made" link as well as "thread count" links and lastly, "participants in this thread" link? Collapse everything else except the initial post. The initial interface looking like this one, should always be available for those who want to "sort through". You want the...
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- Melanie Reed
Jandy, you kind of have to let the user flip between threading and flat to solve the chronology problem. Slashdot has a popup menu at the top that lets you view in "Threaded, Nested, Flat, No Comments". The down side is the UI gets progressively more complex both to implement and use unless you are going to force everyone to lowest common denominator UI.
- Ed Millard
But Ed, that's what I have against the traditional "threaded" approach: all the fork like structure. It does get complicated real fast. What's needed is somewhere a "summary" for those jumping in late to "catch up" but also the "single comment" link to democratize the discussion. Threads have all the indentation problems of trying to follow that way IF I am picturing what you mean by thread.
- Melanie Reed
+1 Ed
- Bicentennial (Franc)
My other observation is this: everyone creates a "story" about the ideas and information they are taking in and immediately starts associating connections in their mind creating a mental picture whether they realize it or not when they are perceiving that information. Our user interfaces don't yet lend themselves to that especially where it come to dialogue and forums. We've accepted a...
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- Melanie Reed
Here's why you don't need indented/tangential threading: FF discussions tend to be small enough to fit in the "RAM" in one's mind. It curtails many threads that might ramble; the exception (like Paul's thread here) comes when the power of the topic/zeitgeist and vibe of a live chat going strong overrides that usual point of decay. Predictablly, one or several commenters here will start a new thread or escalate it to a blog post and summarize their thoughts based on what transpired on this stream.
- Micah Wittman
Melanie, have you used Slashdot, they did forums earlier and better than anyone. The forum starts out flat, and then starts threading. Random community moderators start modding up the insightful posts, and burying the trolls, crap, etc. Once the moderation kicks in the "summary" is all the posts that were modded up to 5 which are shown expanded. All the lower moderated stuff is there but you have to clck to see. Slashdot would suck like YouTube comments if they hadn't solved the forum problem.
- Ed Millard
It's organic, not hierarchical. As other have stated, there is as much to learn from watching the process unfold as there is to gain from end result.
- Micah Wittman
Ed, no, I haven't used Slashdot but I'm willing to give it a try. I'm pretty adaptable. But when I see a problem and it becomes "the picture" for me, in this case a circle then I know its time for the leap out of the present "prison of one idea". ;)
- Melanie Reed
Micah, its true threads are bad for small friendly forums. Some of this discussion is about what happens when the forums on "celebrity" social expert's threads get so big they overflow readers brains and they turn in to *noise*. One noise problem is organization, the other is some post and some posters are better than others in the mind of the celeb and the reader.
- Ed Millard
Slashdot dealt with most of the forum problems ten years ago, they had to to survive the trolls. The problem is their UI needs to be complex to be flexible and keep everyone happy. Their audience is also mostly geek power user. When you get to social networks the other UI school is demanding the UI be dirt simple so the unwashed masses can cope, but dirt simple mean its inflexible and it ticks off nearly everyone, especially power users. Hard problem to solve... making everyone happy.
- Ed Millard
Ed, conferences have break-out groups. The same idea should be employed.
- Micah Wittman
Ed, yes, you offered a little explication for others of what happens when you lost the ability to categorize your"story" into a mental picture that is associated with previous "stories" you have stored in the brain. That end result is "noise". Some of us are better at doing that than others, that's true. But there come a point of over flow for all of us. What our UI needs to do is to amplify and assist in that "story" constructing process.
- Melanie Reed
Break out groups is a nice idea, but it seems a bit cumbersome. You need to make a new post, post a link here and get some critical mass from the first forum to move. If you do it five times you would splinter the first forum and lose critical mass, especially in a "real-time" forum where people will only watch one forum at a time. Chances are most people will cling to the first forum if its interesting.
- Ed Millard
Ed and Micah, what I hear both of you saying, and Robert as well, is that at some point in the "story" constructing process, the dialog from the forum needs to end in the narrative of a blog. Up till now, the blog component has been a random, unattached part of the discussion. AM I hearing that you think that in some way it should become part of the UI? So that the discussion gets...
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- Melanie Reed
Not sure I follow, blog is kind of a one voice, one direction thing, only way a forum morphs to blog is when once person splits off the forum to make a more in depth point and posts the blog link to the forum. I'm mostly just talking about the various methods for restoring order in a big forum, and improving signal to noise ratio. Most entail putting more options and more UI in and around the forum and making the UI more complex which many think is bad on a social network.
- Ed Millard
Ed, as I was writing this, it occurs to me that what I'm suggesting is what I may have just figured out (finally) that Google Wave is trying to get us to do. But if so, I beleive FF could actually do it better. the "noise" problem that was created by the various forms of SM, inside and outside of the platforms, was the inability to "connect the dots". We didn't have a framework for how...
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- Melanie Reed
One of the problems that we haven't solved is the usefulness of digression and random access of connective tissue in the "story" process. That's the wild card that often comes up as "noise"
- Melanie Reed
I can't speak for Robert. Some of his issue "seems" to be he only wants to see the Silicon Valley/SF movers and shakers in his feed talking about tech and social networks, and he doesn't much want anyone but that same group to be posting on forums under his auspices. Friend Feeds openness is bad for that. The same is true for all the Twitter celeberati. They don't want peons anywhere near their online presence to tarnish it.
- Ed Millard
Only way I can see to maintain FF openness for those who want it, and celeb broadcast only mode for the celebs who demand it, in one social network is you have to have an option when you make a post on your feed to control the forum methodology (i.e. broadcast only peons can only look on, panel mode where only my social elite are allowed to speak & peons can watch, private where only my circle can speak and see (FB mode), or completely OPEN(FF mode).
- Ed Millard
There also seems to be an issue where someone you follow, through the "like" process, can inject pictures of kittens, babies and man titteh in to your feed. Of course that is kind of the original point of social networks, seeing what your network sees. I think some just want hard core tech news and talk and twitter lists probably do allow an uber though somewhat lifeless feed like that.
- Ed Millard
Ed, well, that is the territory of the heart when it comes into contact with the machine. And oddly (or maybe not so oddly) there is a post on my feed that addresses that theme: http://friendfeed.com/faithx5... ;) Digression and Random access at work. lol And I find that refreshing. I'm always excited about how some new idea may be generated because I allowed what...
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- Melanie Reed
@Melanie: I fully believe in non-linear learning. The ability to take input from diverse thematic content and synthesize something ... to apply something from one world to the other. That's where I think we're heading. I think of it a little bit like a digital version of Burroughs' Cut Up technique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- AJ Kohn
I can't believe I read the whole thing
- Michael Slattery
Such a simple and obvious solution: provide an optional *LIST* view for Friendfeed items. Open the comments only on items that look really interesting. Am I missing something obvious? Then Friendfeed could easily emulate Twitter on all essentials (and surpass it in many other areas).
- Sean McBride
Sean, I think the obvious thing you are missing is there are no FF developers any more so FF probably isn't getting anything it doesn't already have. And there are camps here that don't really like the alternatives that FB and Twitter offer which is why this is such a hot button issue. I wish there was one social network that had lists, open forums, walled gardens, and broadcast mode based on the wishes of the person running a feed so everyone could be happy in one network.
- Ed Millard
at SJC we get to walk down staircases in the open air, for that authentic 50s jetset vibe
Ho John Lee, James Williams, Sam Harmon and 5 other people liked this
Only if you fly in to the Ghetto Terminal C.
- Kevin Fox
That's why I love Terminal C - checkin in single-digit minutes, retro vibe in CA sunshine FTW
- Kevin Marks
from email
I like that passengers can enter/exit at both ends of the plane at the retro terminal.
- Gary Burd
ditto that Gary!
- Robert Felty
I love boarding out of Terminal C. Retro vibe FTW, it makes you forget all the post-9/11 hassles and be in the moment for a second
- James Williams
I, too, love Terminal C. I long for the days when traveling was a lot less hassle than it is now.
- April Buchheit
Welcome to the high-tech capital of the solar system! NOT.
- Steve "Daddy do it!" Lacy
Should we start a campaign to keep Terminal C at SJC?
- Kevin Marks
Terminal B's looking pretty beautiful though, and I love the big comfy seats with integrated power and USB power in the armrests!
- Kevin Fox
Terminal C is also my favorite. It's interesting that people are so polarized though.
- Paul Buchheit
from iPhone
I love Terminal C and am worried about it eventually being upgraded to be big and slow like Terminal A.
- Amit Patel
After two long distance relationships, I have sentimental feelings for Terminal A.
- Daisy
I'm flying, on a jet plane...
- Jim Norris
I do know the "You're not really flying if your feet don't touch the tarmac" feeling.
- Steve "Daddy do it!" Lacy
Don't believe your lying eyes (TED Talk) - http://www.cnn.com/2009...
Maxamad (Amazigh), April Buchheit, ǝuǝƃnǝ and 13 other people liked this
"Put another way, only by accepting my own humanity can I accept the humanity of others. "Seeing myself see" creates the opportunity for this acceptance. Illusions, then, were not the point of my talk, but simply a tool for encouraging this process. Resolving uncertainty is essential to our survival. Hence our fear of ambiguous situations is palpable -- e.g., the inability to resolve sensory conflict between the eyes and ears can result in nausea (like seasickness). And yet it is only by embracing the unknown within education, science, art and most importantly within our own private lives that we will find new routes to more enlightened ways of seeing and being. Thus, courage not confidence is at the heart of this process of actively redefining normality, which is the route to compassion and creativity."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
Have you read Dan Margulis "Professional Photoshop"? It is all about that.
- Matter of Attitude
The quote is a little unclear, but parts of of it seem apropos to the latest big English-language discussion here on FF.
- Kamilah Gill
huh?
- Daisy
A test.
Kol Tregaskes, sofarsoShawn, Bindu Reddy and 2 other people liked this
A comment.
- Paul Buchheit
A response.
- MG Siegler
a thread
- anna sauce
A moment
- Mo Kargas
This is my playground.
- Gary Burd
Panama
- Ken Sheppardson
A presto
- Keiko Yamada
B test.
- Stephen Mack
C test.
- anna sauce
Who wants to be a Zillionaire?
- Josh Haley
F for Fantastic?
- Holden Page
A nother...
- Ciro
I looovvvvvvvvveee iiiiiitttt
- sofarsoShawn
no comment
- Petr Buben
result?
- ashish
this is a no no no nonsense comment thread.
- Petr Buben
An ending.
- Maxamad (Amazigh)
Da capo!
- Henner Zeller
this comment has been edited for brevity and punctuation!
- Jay Cuthrell
You pass
- Charlie Anzman
with flying colours (wait, how do colours take flight anyway?)
- Micah Wittman
can you ship yourself as a package, perhaps via UPS, Fedex, or US Postal Service? and can you check on your delivery via yPhoney convenietly packed with?
- Petr Buben
There is this gut feeling, that this is all a bit silly. Can't put my finger on it though.
- Henner Zeller
google it
- Petr Buben
Gone. Thanks
- Paul Buchheit
Cell Size and Scale - http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content...
Maggie, Robert Felty, ha3rvey (free hugs!) and 2 other people liked this
Really cool. I didn't realize how big the X chromosome is.
- Paul Buchheit
and Y chromosome is getting smaller.
- ashish
Superstitious Beliefs Cemented Before Birth : Discovery News - http://dsc.discovery.com/news...
Voracek found that "higher feminized" digit ratio in men correlated with stronger paranormal and superstitious beliefs, "even when controlled for age, education, adult height and weight, and birth length and weight." "Shorter feminized" digit ratios in women also correlated with a greater likelihood of superstitious beliefs, as did a woman's lighter weight at birth. For both sexes, shorter body length at birth was associated with later beliefs in superstitions and the paranormal. The findings help to support the conclusions of Kia Aarnio and Marjaana Lindeman, both University of Helsinki psychologists who have extensively studied the propensity for paranormal and superstitious beliefs. They found that women are much more likely to have such beliefs, which the researchers attribute to "higher intuitiveness and lower analytical thinking." Based on the recent study, it now appears that men born with at least one feminine-associated characteristic may have greater intuitiveness as well, possibly explaining why these men, like some women, are more inclined to hold paranormal and superstitious beliefs.
- bob
from Bookmarklet
"cemented" seems like the wrong word. It's kind of like saying that someone's profession is cemented before birth.
- Paul Buchheit
Where there's a will there's a row | The Economist - http://www.economist.com/world...
rtshiva, Thomas Brox Røst, Alex Scrivener and 19 other people liked this
"In 26 out of 27 European Union countries, Mr Buffett’s plans [to leave most of his fortune to charity] would not just be shocking, but illegal. The exception is Britain."
- Simon
from Bookmarklet
Oh my, that's crazy.
- Amit Patel
"In continental Europe a big part of an estate (often around half) is reserved for the surviving children of the deceased and must be equally divided between them. ... Finally, “clawback” laws in many countries stop parents from dodging forced heirship by giving assets away while they are still alive. This applies to gifts made in the last years of life (two years in Austria, ten in Germany), or much longer: in some countries, no time limit applies."
- Paul Buchheit
I bet the Europeans think it's crazy that we reserve half for the IRS :)
- Private Sanjeev
I thought only millionaires had to reserve half for the IRS.
- Gabe
As of 2009, it's 45% for estates valued at over $3.5MM, with exemptions for small businesses and farmers. It affects less than 1% of the US population at present. It's set to revert to $1M in 2011, but there's pretty much no chance that Congress will let that actually happen.
- Joel Webber
@Sanjeev: In Europe the inheritance tax rates vary, but can be similar to the US, and the exemption limits are often much lower: "[2007] France if you are inheriting from a spouse you receive up to €76,000 tax free. Anything above this limit is taxed at between 5 and 40 per cent, depending on the size of the gift. But the rate for non-relatives is a hefty 60 per cent, with no...
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- Simon
@Simon: Interesting -- I had no idea it was that high. It's also telling that, as the Economist article suggests, (continental) European law seems to strongly favor blood relatives (especially children) over the wishes of the deceased. I'm not sure which is preferable, but it's an interesting dichotomy.
- Joel Webber
focus
Siavash, Chris Martin, Tom Himpe and 10 other people liked this
Where in FB HQ is this one?
- Benjamin Golub
Should I say?
- Paul Buchheit
I think I remember seeing it in the bathroom
- Benjamin Golub
It must be over a bathroom stall.
- τorƍue
At Extreme Networks (which builds switches and routers), the plastic urinal inserts were silkscreened with the logos of competitors like Cisco, Foundry, etc. It made vendor meetings... interesting. Given Extreme's current level of success versus those competitors, also quite ironic.
- DGentry
I don't get it.
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
Russell - http://imgur.com/LogId
rowlikeagirl, hecho en eu, Kol Tregaskes, j1m and 12 other people liked this
Is that Facebook? I think I saw him in the cafe.
- Paul Buchheit
He has the github cat/octopus on a badge!
- Benjamin Golub
Super awesome
- niniane
paul: yep, that's frank cho from facebook
- Ashwin Bharambe
Hormesis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
ashish, Keith Bourgoin, Dani Radu and 8 other people liked this
"Hormesis is the term for generally-favorable biological responses to low exposures to toxins and other stressors. A pollutant or toxin showing hormesis thus has the opposite effect in small doses as in large doses. ... The biochemical mechanisms by which hormesis works are not well understood. It is conjectured that a low dose challenge with a toxin may trigger certain repair mechanisms in the body, and these mechanisms, having been initiated, are efficient enough that they not only neutralize the toxin's effect, but even repair other defects not caused by the toxin."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
Learned a new thing today.
- AJ Batac
Where would you say the 3 martini challenge falls on that graph? :)
- Benjamin Golub
Heh, tech rockstars and heroin...
- directeur
thanks for sharing - eustress! ;)
- Harscoat
This is very vigorously debated and generally hormesis is not widely accepted.
- Chris Brinkerhoff
Not exactly but sounds like a vaccine effect which are viral particles at low concentration.
- ashish
ooc - low-level / high-level goodness - http://ooc-lang.org/
Shivanand Velmurugan, JMaultasch, Benjamin Golub and 56 other people liked this
Looks promising. C++ is too much of a disaster -- we need a real successor to C. "ooc is a modern, object-oriented, functional-ish, high-level, low-level, sexy programming language. it's translated to pure C with a source-to-source compiler. it strives to be powerful, modular, extensible, portable, yet simple and fast."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
Meh. I dislike post-fix'd declarations, and given that the assignment operator is frequently used, I think C's decision to make it a single character operator is the correct one. Otherwise, it doesn't seem any better than say, Objective C, D, or any of the other languages vying to be the next C.
- Piaw Na
Have you looked at the D language? http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ It's been around for years and near the top of language shootouts in performance.
- Ray Cromwell
Pointers? Do we really need pointers?
- Gabe
Yes, if you're doing a systems language, you need pointers --- for writing device drivers, if nothing else.
- Piaw Na
Based on the sample code, it appears to have a very direct interface to C, which I think is important for a systems language. For most things I'd rather just use Python, but for lower-level, perf-critical stuff, we need something else. D looks like too much, but I haven't tried it.
- Paul Buchheit
Type inference, yummy - a main reason why Scala has mad traction these days
- Christopher Galtenberg
Start by creating a really lightweight and easy to use development environment. I should be able to teach Jay Rosen to program in it. Back in the 80s there was serious compeititon in this area -- from Borland with Turbo Pascal and on the Mac, from Think Technologies with their C and Pascal systems. The languages aren't the issue, at least not for me. I want to program in C again, but the curve is too steep in all the environments. Give me a Turbo environment and some nice libraries, and lets go! :-)
- Dave Winer
Dave: http://tryruby.sophrinix.com <- that kind of easy
- Christopher Galtenberg
Piaw Na: For ':=' I've just made a homepage edit to make it very clear. := is decl-assign. Regular assign is '=' as in C/Java/etc. RTFM! ;)
- 'n ddrylliog
Piaw Na: As for trying to be the next C... well, no =) The next C is probably C itself, since C hackers are way too picky to be satisfied with anyside above C (in high-level/low-level terms)
- 'n ddrylliog
Btw, why is everyone thinking of ooc as a systems language? It can be used as such, but it's not really the goal. Do you all think so because it's compiled?
- 'n ddrylliog
I'm thinking of it as a systems language because that's what I want. We already have reasonable options for higher-level stuff, but when writing a database or whatever, we're stuck with C or C++.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul Buchheit: Hmm. High-performance implementations of current reasonable high-level languages are still pretty much experimental :/ (unladen swallow, shedskin, etc.) Why sacrifice performance? Many compiled languages have shown that expressivity isn't reserved to "interpreted" languages. =)
- 'n ddrylliog
Piaw Na: about ooc being better or worse than Objective-C, D, etc. Well, D is really complex. It gives a *lot* of control, but it makes code less readable imho. As much as you may currently dislike it, the ooc syntax is (for some at least) more readable, so more maintainable, in general simpler, etc. (a lot less trickier than C++, for example. And if you don't see what I'm talking about, you haven't done enough C++)
- 'n ddrylliog
Ocaml is pretty expressive, it has a REPL, and it's been in the top of the language shootout benchmarks for years.
- Ray Cromwell
How does ooc compare to C#? If I had to write something like a compiler, I'd use C#.
- Gabe
The missing dots really bother me.
- τorƍue
C++ a disaster? I don't think so, its main problem is the lack of high level straightforward frameworks. IMHO generic programming is a deeper paradigm than OOP, but like functional languages has a slow learning curve, look at the matrix implementations/compiler optimizations in Boost!
- Sebastian Wain
from iPhone
Sebastian: C++ has lots of significant problems. For example, it's actually 3 languages: precompiler (#define), C++, and templates. The template language is so powerful that you can't even tell if the compiler will halt on a given program, let alone understand the error messages it produces. Just the shear size of the language, manual memory management, things like multiple inheritance, and vast overlapping standard libraries make it hard to program in by giving the progammer an overly large cognitive load.
- Gabe
My two biggest gripes: Error messages from templates, specially from STL, can be notoriously hard to track down. And secondly, default implicit conversions can lead to hard to track down bugs. When you have a type system so complex you have to mentally "run the compiler" as you code, something's wrong.
- Ray Cromwell
I've been doing nothing but C++ lately. It's not bad, but only because everyone subsets it. The compilers are horrible, but I don't think that's because nobody has an incentive to improve g++'s front-end.
- Piaw Na
Ouch. decl-assign is terrible. I hate that. I think C's syntax (e.g., int a = 3; ) is much better than decl- assign. If you want to imitate C, at least make the declarations C-like. Personally, I think language design should be performed so that you can hand-code a compiler (i.e., no lex & yacc). Why? Because hand-coded compilers can much more easily produce human readable error...
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- Piaw Na
I've seen it argued that LL(k) compiler-compilers don't have this fault, because they generate recursive decent parsers that look somewhat like what you'd write by hand, JavaCC certainly has this attribute for example. Although I'm quite fond of the parser-combinator approach now.
- Ray Cromwell
Gabe: the issue is: when you need performance you must follow the C++ path. Don't forget http://theory.stanford.edu/~amitp...
- Sebastian Wain
What Ray said. yacc uses an LALR parser, and LALR parsers are kind of notorious for producing inscrutable error messages. LL(k) compiler-compilers can generate much more intuitive error messages, and the code they generate often looks like something a human would write. Both JavaCC and ANTLR are good LL(k) compiler-compilers. I believe LL(k) parsers aren't strictly as powerful as LALR...
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- Laurence Gonsalves
On the topic of ooc: the "object [space] method-call()" syntax is the most jarring thing about the syntax for me. I'm surprised that there doesn't seem to be any actual introduction to that syntax on the linked page -- it's just used several times without explanation. Also, I have to say I'm not a fan of conservative garbage collection.
- Laurence Gonsalves
Yes, when I hand code parsers, I write them in recursive descent form. The problem with C++ is that it's not easily parseable in that form. And seriously, any language where you can write map<string, string>, but have to write map<string, vector<string> > is seriously messed up.
- Piaw Na
+1 to Laurence's comment about conservative GC: that's plain evil.
- Piaw Na
Yeah, Piaw only uses progressive GC, and even then he keeps complaining that it's finding ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
- Daniel Dulitz
I believe JavaCC grammar repo has a relatively straightforward C++ grammar implemented, using LL(k)
- Ray Cromwell
Piaw Na: You got so much wrong in so few comments that it's actually worrying. Decl-assign is not terrible. It's called type inference, and is used in a lot of modern languages (ML, C#, Scala) to make our lives easier, and limits repeating yourself and it works damn well. Grow up and learn other languages. So no, the goal is not to imitate C. Go use Objective-C/C#/C++/Java/D if you want C-like languages.
- 'n ddrylliog
Piaw Na: Second: I have hand-written the ooc 0.3 compiler's parser, and it was a piece of cake, because the syntax is so simple and unambiguous. Having "object[space]field" is a non-issues since declarations are "name: type". And you're mistaken in thinking that the fact you can hand-write a parser for a grammar means that it's simple. It's the other way around. If you can write a LL(K)/LR/PEG grammar, then the syntax is *very* straightforward. And the new ooc compiler (rock) uses a PEG grammar..
- 'n ddrylliog
Conservative Garbage Collector: There are advantages 1) the performance is a lot better than you would expect (and actually faster than plain malloc/free for lots of small objects) 2) there are advantages, e.g. seamless integrations with all the C libs out there. 3) Writing a GC isn't easy, the Boehm has been around for years and is well-tested/optimized, portable, etc. Read the papers please :/ This thread is a showcase of ignorance and arrogance.
- 'n ddrylliog
As for "Language blah is better". No, sorry, apples are not better than oranges. That's your personal taste. Well, good for you =) One size doesn't fit all. Why do you even bother?
- 'n ddrylliog
why `diagonal := Vector3f new()` instead of `diagonal := new Vector3f()` or even `diagonal := Vector3f()` is this because someone felt he must not be like any other language?
- Tzury Bar Yochay
I know several typed inference languages. I dislike them --- again, type inferencing never took off not because the technology was hard, but because programmers preferred the declarations --- it really helps. Not to mention tools like ctags/etags, etc., do a good job for popular programming environments (i.e., vi and emacs), which meant that languages without such support never get widespread use.
- Piaw Na
Conservative Garbage Collector: 1) this is more an argument abut gc than conservative gc. I have no problems with gc, I just want accurate gc. 2) That's a fair point, but not enough to make me want to use conservative gc. I'd be happier managing resources from C libraries manually than worrying that hash values are confusing the collector. 3) Yes, writing a gc isn't easy, but I'm sure...
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- Laurence Gonsalves
@Piaw, a type inferenced language just means that the type is concretely there, just it doesn't need to be declared in syntax. Thus, any smart editor or IDE, or other tool could reify or show types on demand if the developer so chose. Ctags are a relatively primitive mechanism for source code indexing, once you have an editor which understands your language's AST/semantics, you don't...
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- Ray Cromwell
Tzury: why 'diagonal := Vector3f new()'? Because new is simply a static method: http://ooc-lang.org/blog... Your definition of "any other language" must be "Java and C++" and both are inconsistent/magical on this issue, as opposed to, yeah, pretty much "any other language" (Smalltalk, Ruby, Io, ...)
- 'n ddrylliog
I've never heard of this before. Feel a bit disconnected.
- mikepk
Ray: for better or worse, most programmers out there are using Emcas and vi. Why? Because no other tool scales up when you're dealing with large code bases. (That's one reason why even some Java programmers at Google use vi and Emacs) I don't care how primitive the tools are, they have to get things done.
- Piaw Na
I agree with Laurence about conservative GC. The big one is memory fragmentation. Once upon a time, when all we ever wrote were desktop apps, memory fragmentation didn't matter. For server side applications, it matters a heck of a lot, and any language that uses conservative gc might as well provide the delete operator.
- Piaw Na
C++ can be used quite effectively without STL or complicated templates, but it will never be safe from corruption or memory leaks.
- Todd Hoff
I love lamp.
- Mark Jepsen
@Laurence 1) Yes and no. The performance gap between good conservative and precise (/accurate/exact) garbage collectors is less significant than one would think. 2) That's a valid point 3) Actually, I've thought of using Steve Dekorte's libgarbagecollector (look on GitHub). These are still plans though, Boehm was clearly the easiest option to start with, and ooc itself isn't bound to...
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- 'n ddrylliog
Easily one of the most fascinating threads on FriendFeed right now. You guys are talking mostly over my head but it reminds me that I need to get my ass out of managed languages one day.
- Akiva Moskovitz
@mikepk The language+impl has only been out there for a few months. =)
- 'n ddrylliog
@Todd Totally agreed, which explains some design choices in ooc. Memory leaks is a non-issue with a GC, and as for corruption, as long as you stay out of manual memory manipulation, the compiler does most the checking for you, statically.
- 'n ddrylliog
@piaw: I think we're mostly in agreement, but I really don't think it's fair to say that "most programmers use Emacs and vi". I use vi a lot, but when it comes to Java/Scala code bases, I still use Eclipse (or IntelliJ, or whatever). Even at Google. I just don't map the *entire* Google Java code base into my workspace at once. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Java developers at...
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- Joel Webber
Joel: sure, you can play tricks like mapping only what you use. But a surprising number of Java users at Google kick up vim/emacs just so they can use the *fast* low-latency search tools when they need to read code outside of what they've mapped. The numbers were really surprising to me.
- Piaw Na
I've been using emacs for 2 decades and I still use it when I need to quickly edit something or slice and dice text with macros (or I write sed/perl to do it). But when I'm developing stuff, a switchover point occurs where emacs is no longer sufficient and I desire the IDE. Emacs is great for scripts where you can test for errors via a quick eval, but the cost of a compile is high in...
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- Ray Cromwell
There is, once you get into Google-size (or even Linux-kernel-sized) code bases. But I guess I've living in the Google bubble for so long, the concept of not having mega-libraries doesn't even occur to me. And we've built enough fancy tools at Google that make Emacs way faster than Eclipse/IntelliJ (see http://code.google.com/p...). Latency matters!
- Piaw Na
Ultimately, this is a search problem, something that google excels at. I'm not sure why you think Emacs has any innate advantage over Eclipse/IntelliJ for this. If GTags can be built for Emacs, it can be done for those IDEs. (Those IDEs already index all symbols and store them on disk) The issue here is that "find symbol" is necessary, but not sufficient, especially on large code bases....
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- Ray Cromwell
Heh. I open sourced all the infrastructure, but not the ranking algorithms for code (which are google proprietary) Having seen lots of old Google hands work in Emacs, I think you'll find that they disagree. People have tried adding plugins to gtags for Eclipse/IntelliJ, but none have succeeded --- those IDEs aren't designed to take plugins quite the way Emacs does. Even Vim isn't as...
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- Piaw Na
As a practical example, the Linux kernel core (minus the whole driver universe) is about 500kloc. The GWT compiler, which I work on, is about 500kloc. I have zero complains about my IDE's ability (IntelliJ 9) to deal with this code base. Call it a medium sized code base if you will. Too big IMHO to practically use with Emacs/VI (where I desire refactoring and other navigational...
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- Ray Cromwell
What you'll find is that top engineers everywhere have heavily customized environments, scripts, editors, libraries, even their own programming languages, that make switching hard. Anecdotal evidence doesn't really prove anything, if "old hands" is meant to covey argument by authority. Like I said, I've been personally using Emacs since 1987, I use a bevy of ELisp, Perl, Awk, and other...
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- Ray Cromwell
I think the mindset difference is huge. Codebase too big? The IDE solution is to subset. The EMACS solution is to create a search index held in memory and apply search technology to it. The size of the community hacking away on these tools also matters.
- Piaw Na
Piaw, you do realize that the IDE solution (I can't speak for Eclipse), is to build a search index and apply search technology? IntelliJ spiders all your reachable code and files on project setup (now, as a background process since it can take some time) and serves up IDE functions by consulting the index. In fact, it's very much like Google Suggest. I can type symbol lookup requests...
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- Ray Cromwell
Oh yeah, but they do it on disk and so have high latency when the code base scales up. I know, because people switch to Emacs/gtags from those IDEs for that reason. :-)
- Piaw Na
Google's code base is large? I mean, I know the data it holds and indexes is very large, but somehow I assumed the code itself was quite small.
- Andrew C
Actually, they cache some or all of the indices in memory depending on heap, at least according to the IntelliJ lead, if you increase heap, you lower cache thrashing. I still don't see why you think ETags/CTags/etc is any different in this regard. IntelliJ uses a similar index structure, it just records a bitmask on each tag as to the context (comment, identifier, method, field, etc)....
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- Ray Cromwell
@Andrew: I assume Piaw's talking about the *entire* code base, apps and all. That's a lot of code.
- Joel Webber
gtags keeps it all in memory on a server, so there's no disk seek latency. There's nothing fundamental about the IDEs that makes this stuff impossible to do. It's just far easier to do in Emacs when there's just one of you. Once the prototype gets going, it's usefulness allows others to add in more useful functionality. Until recently, things like IntelliJ weren't even open source, so...
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- Piaw Na
Thanks Joel. Yes, I'm talking about the entire codebase. All of it. :-)
- Piaw Na
@Piaw, Ray: It's becoming clear to me that we're all essentially saying the same thing. To deal with a large, complex code base, you need good tools. IDEs vs. Emacs isn't really much of a dichotomy if they're both building indices and cross-references of your code base and serving them up to you within the editor. They're both IDEs, n'est-ce pas?
- Joel Webber
Yes, I'm just saying, if you need to build something in a hurry, it's far easier to do it in Emacs. But more importantly, ignoring a base of Emacs/Vi users when designing your programming language is ignoring a large percentage of the population. And in some cases, it's a large percentage of a very influential population.
- Piaw Na
@Piaw I somehow lost your point between the "omg I don't like type inference" and the "you're ignoring Emacs/Vim users". It's still straight-forward to look for declarations of things, what's your problem? It's precisely why := and = are separate operators
- 'n ddrylliog
You'll get no argument from me. I'm a fan of diversity in programming, and I do use emacs daily. IntelliJ/Eclipse would do well to offer a simple in-editor tool for building plugins via any Java scripting engine and support saving those persistently. I guess my point is, I can't live without Etags functionality, and now I can't live without all the other features I've gotten used to:...
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- Ray Cromwell
Even without any support, editing ooc in at text editor (I personally use Vim and Geany for .ooc) is very easy, cause you can search for "whatever:" (notice the ':') and be done with it. Try doing that with a C/C++/Java codebase =) That's the payback of a simple, non-ambiguous consistent syntax
- 'n ddrylliog
And AFAIK, most ooc users/contributors/hackers use vim. A few use emacs, too. We have a vim syntax file, and a contributor is looking into writing an emacs mode. =)
- 'n ddrylliog
@Piaw, Ray, et al: To finish my previous thought -- There will always be some point at which an IDE (be it Emacs or Eclipse) will fail to scale. The time and space required to deal with the code base eventually grows without bound, and you simply aren't going to load it into a single machine's memory. Even if you could load all of Google's code (or at least its index) into a single...
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- Joel Webber
Or you do the work to integrate the external search tool (or whatever) into the IDE. Emacs is designed to make that easy. The other IDEs that are around today, not so much. Code Search introduces a lot of latency. gtags as implemented internal to Google has sub 300ms response times. Whenever it goes down, I get complaints from people, declaring that "it's just too much work to remember where files are."
- Piaw Na
I think Piaw's concern with type inference comes from the fact that explicitly stating the type of something acts as documentation. With type inference that documentation goes away. For example, in ooc, suppose I search for "whatever:" and I see "whatever:= foo()". What's the type? Whatever foo() returns. So now I have to look up foo(). Suppose it uses type inference on its return type (assuming that's possible in ooc). Now I have to dig even deeper.
- Laurence Gonsalves
I'm guessing the IDE digression related to the fact that a sufficiently smart IDE can add the implicit type information back by doing the same type inference as the compiler. The problem with going down that road is that you're coupling the code editor and the language. Either your editor needs special language support so it can do the type inference, or you have to put up with not having an easy way of knowing something's type.
- Laurence Gonsalves
I don't understand how you can do conservative garbage collection without leaking memory.
- Gabe
Gabe: In theory, you can't. In practice, Hans Boehm did a lot of studies in the 1990s showing you that the leakage is very tiny. The real problem is memory fragmentation. With accurate GC, you can actually improve the locality of your data structures in memory (e.g., by putting elements of a linked list or array next to each other so a cache fetch brings them all into cache), with conservative GC, you can't do that.
- Piaw Na
@Laurence: type inference: For me, the advantages far outweighs the drawback(s) (And, no, no return type inference in ooc). Plus, you don't *have to* use type inference. You can declare type explicitly in your whole codebase if you feel like it.
- 'n ddrylliog
For the record: I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Piaw's distaste for type inference. I've thought about the issue in the past, but haven't used languages with type inference enough to have an opinion one way or the other. The lack of return type inference might be a good compromise, as it would tend to limit how far you'd have to search to figure out the type of something, while still eliminating a lot of the "busy work" in languages that require that you specify the type of everything.
- Laurence Gonsalves
@Laurence You've come to the exact same reasoning as me =)
- 'n ddrylliog
I do still think you should explain the "object[space]method-call" syntax somewhere on that page. Up until the point where you use that syntax ooc looks vaguely similar to C/Pascal/Algol/etc., so seeing this unfamiliar syntax with no explanation is confusing.
- Laurence Gonsalves
@Laurence I just edited the homepage. Better now?
- 'n ddrylliog
w.r.t. fragmentation and conservative GC: take a look at "Compacting garbage collection with ambiguous roots" by Joel Bartlett. Worked very well when I used it in a home-brew JVM for alphas at Dec/Compaq about twelve years ago.
- Sanjay Ghemawat
I really like the way C# handles pointers and GC: All objects are allocated from the GC heap. If you need a pointer to a GC-able object, you only get it by pinning it. Once the pointer goes out of scope the object gets unpinned. And you can only use pointers in code marked "unsafe" so it's obvious to the reader.
- Gabe
Gabe - does the fact that C# is not compiled to machine code like C++ make it slower?
- Robert Felty
Rob: C# gets compiled to native machine code when you run the code. There's also a program that ships with .Net called ngen which will create a native image without having to run the code.
- Gabe
It would be nice if Microsoft open-sourced C#/.net. I know there is Mono, but that seems like it will always be second-class.
- Paul Buchheit
What happened to the "Opening .Net Framework's Source Code" project, any ideas?
- Ozkan Altuner
I guess Rotor isn't good enough, huh?
- Gabe
I was thinking of an actual open/free license.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul Graham on object orientation: http://www.paulgraham.com/noop...
- Donald C. Lindsay
I was on EconTalk with Russ Roberts last week: http://www.econtalk.org/archive... Finally got a chance to listen, and think it came out pretty good :) Let me know what you think.
Alexander Arsky, David Bausola, Micah Wittman and 32 other people liked this
Cool, checking it out now...
- Susan Beebe
I agree that it came out pretty good. Is that the raw conversation, or is it edited?
- Gary Burd
Thanks Gary. It's the raw conversation, I believe.
- Paul Buchheit
this is really good... :) that's because Paul is uber smart and that makes this really fun
- Susan Beebe
I was pleasantly surprised to see it show up on my iPhone. Great conversation.
- Cliff Gerrish
I listened earlier this week and liked it.
- Bruce Lewis
Russ rocks! I'm an avid Econtalk viewer . I thought the interview was good and useful considering I work on the product you championed.
- Hareesh Nagarajan
I was listening to the show while running some errands this afternoon. Had to give friend feed a try and more importantly see the toe shoes.
- Eric Nelson
very good Paul so open and honest
- Thomas Power
Just got to listen. Nice podcast, I liked the perspective on Google, on mindshare problems, and how you got your "toe shoes" in there :) Thanks!
- Vincent van Wylick
Great interview Paul.
- τorƍue
Facebook will give application developers access to your email addresses. Does that worry you? - http://thenextweb.com/2009...
Chris Martin, A.T., Deepak Singh and 9 other people liked this
Not as long as it's the one I used to register there. That's my "catch-all" address.
- Jack (a.k.a. Jeber)
"To reduce friction and empower application and Facebook Connect developers to manage their relationship with users, for the first time, we're providing a simple and safe way for users to share their email addresses with you." From the Facebook Developers blog.
- Mitch
This story is misleading. The email address is not provided to apps by default -- users must authorize the transfer. This is a good thing. The lack of email addresses was always a problem with FriendFeed's Facebook integration because we were not able to contact those users (vs people who signed in via Gmail, for example).
- Paul Buchheit
What's wrong with getting email sent to your facebook inbox? I would much rather have it go there than the university email address I used to sign up for Facebook as did a lot of others. Getting emails from application developers is not important. I'm very glad to learn it's optional.
- Mitch
@Paul but if they do not authorize the transfer, how do users receive app notifications? From the developers garage event it seems this would be the only way
- Zee.
I believe the linked article is misinformed. The following excerpt on communication channels from the Facebook post on the coming changes ( http://developers.facebook.com/news... ) indicates that apps can still communicate with users through their own news stream and their Facebook inbox: "Focusing Facebook communication on the stream and Inbox. This consolidates...
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- Kevin Fox
That's a huge step for Facebook Platform and also for App developers. Now, we have a chance to fully integrate our websites/applications with Facebook
- Ozkan Altuner
For those who worries about this, Have you ever heard something named "Privacy Settings" ?
- Ozgur Demir
Hrmmm... friendfeed is all out of wack. The posts are all showing up out of order and twitter -> friendfeed is hella slow sometimes, and not other times. What gives?
Roberto Bonini liked this
The realtime feed from Twitter is gone for now (should be back soon), so we rely on normal polling, which takes an average of about 20 min (but can vary from 0-40).
- Paul Buchheit
I've been wondering the same thing. If you don't want to wait for the polling, you can go to the Services page, click Twitter and hit Refresh.
- Alex
Yeah I've been doing that all day.
- Roberto Bonini
ah. thx for the explanation.
- Jenna Bilotta
THE LAST DAYS OF THE POLYMATH - http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/content...
Maxamad (Amazigh), Sean Kelly, я был в лесу and 41 other people liked this
"The monomaths do not only swarm over a specialism, they also play dirty. In each new area that Posner picks—policy or science—the experts start to erect barricades. “Even in relatively soft fields, specialists tend to develop a specialised vocabulary which creates barriers to entry,” Posner says with his economic hat pulled down over his head. “Specialists want to fend off the generalists. They may also want to convince themselves that what they are doing is really very difficult and challenging. One of the ways they do that is to develop what they regard a rigorous methodology—often mathematical. “The specialist will always be able to nail the generalists by pointing out that they don’t use the vocabulary quite right and they make mistakes that an insider would never make. It’s a defence mechanism. They don’t like people invading their turf, especially outsiders criticising insiders."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
There is definitely a place for polymaths in some form: someone needs to be that people-person guy from Office Space who takes information from two or more disparate groups to form a coherent picture. But the requirement of an agreed lexicon from specialists isn't a defense mechanism: there's a lot of time that can be spent on trying to flesh out terms which could be better spent...
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- Mark Trapp
I do think there is a tendency for specialists to overcomplicate things though. Even though I know quite a bit about computers, I still don't know what people are talking about half of the time (and it usually turns out to be something simple). Making up fancy terms makes the work seem so much more magical and important, like you're on the Star Trek or something. Now go realign the tachyon beams with the anti-matter stabilizers :)
- Paul Buchheit
Haha. My background is in philosophy, where everything one can talk about probably has an -ism or a -ness or a -itude attached to it. The terms lock out people who only dabble in the hard problems, but they are great shorthand for those who are versed in it. Descartes writes about a philosophy of mind in his Meditations on First Philosophy, and a bunch of people over the course of 300...
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- Mark Trapp
Me likey
- Michael Ehline
"The question is whether their loss has affected the course of human thought. Polymaths possess something that monomaths do not. Time and again, innovations come from a fresh eye or from another discipline. Most scientists devote their careers to solving the everyday problems in their specialism. Everyone knows what they are and it takes ingenuity and perseverance to crack them. But breakthroughs—the sort of idea that opens up whole sets of new problems—often come from other fields."
- Clare Dibble
The problem with specialization is that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Then if you encounter a screw, and hammering a screw is precisely the wrong thing to do. That's why you need generalists.
- Piaw Na
it's axiomatic that: a specialist is someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he finally knows everything about nothing
- Ervin
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Robert A Heinlein
- Bill de hÓra
I have to disagree with you Mark, as also having a background in philosophy, I find it is just as easy to get locked into a semantic argument about some term as it is a possible shortcut to a broader discussion. Most of time time I find people who throw around -isms would prefer not to discuss things deeply because they don't want to ever re-evaluate the basics, it's too frightening,...
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- Ňicķ
Do we have too much violence and terrorism in this world or is it not that much at all considering the world's population of 6B+ ppl and our history as a pretty violent race that seems to be constantly pre-occupied with power and empire building
Jérôme Flipo, Amit Patel, Vishy and 5 other people liked this
So we need more then?
- Paul Buchheit
Of course we don't need more and we need to strive towards decreasing it... But it is also not the case that - "The world is an extremely dangerous place now" as some reporters/media anchors make it out to be. It was probably way more dangerous 100 - 200 years ago.
- Bindu Reddy
Any amount is too much, but you're right that one might expect even more than we have already.
- Stephen Mack
violence against even a single person out of 6B+ is still Violence... today people have much easier access to much more info & resources to abuse & manipulate compared to 100-200 years ago. We have grown smarter but more dangerous also.
- Roshan Ramachandran
It's a great point to remember Bindu. We have made huge strides in so many areas because humans have consciously chosen to be more humane. It's not all bad.
- Todd Hoff
No doubt, Any amount is too much... The flip side is also true that today we get to hear a lot more about any violence that happens anywhere in the world because we are so much more connected. That said I am not advocating we turn a blind eye towards violence but I think it helps to remember that at some point world population was decreasing because ppl were killing each other off!
- Bindu Reddy
@Todd agree..
- Bindu Reddy
RT @TechCrunch Yahoo Mail And IM Users Update Their Status 800 Million Times A Month http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
Bertrand Doux, Burcu Dogan, Bruce Lewis and 3 other people liked this
What does this mean? “Flickr delivers more photos in a week via the inbox than those that get uploaded to Facebook in one month.” What is "deliver via the inbox"?
- Paul Buchheit
I assume they are referring to when you add flickr photos and your contacts see them appear in Yahoo Mail. Strange that they would compare viewing/sharing with uploading.
- Daniel Sims
Yeah, odd statistic
- Jesse Stay
I like that Yahoo is starting to connect all their various properties. Something Google really hasn't done at all.
- Daniel Sims
Think big. Code small.
John Mueller, Maxamad (Amazigh), Laura Norvig and 89 other people liked this
How small?
- τorƍue
10 CLS
- Mattb4rd
Excellent advise K.I.S.S. :)
- Susan Beebe
How Big?
- John D Reasor
+ John
- τorƍue
Big enough to change the world, and small enough to get done right now.
- Paul Buchheit
Amen - release early, release often, especially as an entrepreneur
- Jesse Stay
Please provide a list of projects that we can get done right now that'll change the world. kthxbye
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, I think the saying is, "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"
- Paul Buchheit
Yeah, I figured you'd say something like that ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Paul, when you said "code small", was that just the first step? :)
- τorƍue
It's also the second step.
- Paul Buchheit
The next trick is taking all those steps in one direction, otherwise you can end up dancing around in one place like a madman, not actually getting anywhere. :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
20 ? "Shall we play a game?"
- Mattb4rd
Yes, good point Ken, though sometimes we must navigate around obstacles such as mountains and oceans.
- Paul Buchheit
And sometimes you have to head downhill to get to the top of that peak off in the distance.
- Ken Sheppardson
Don't forget time itself
- Jesse Stay
booo yaaa!
- Bill Heslin
On average, how much of a code project's big success could be significantly attributed to luck? Luck alone never gets it there, but still. I code because of the small rewards, so whatever the answer is, I'm fine with it. :)
- Micah Wittman
This is a more likely result, but keep swinging: http://friendfeed.com/funny-p...
- Mattb4rd
Think BIG. Code SMALL. Maintain ZERO! (Ideal conditions!)
- Nishant
Think small. Code big. http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc...
- Kelly Norton
lol @Kelly
- Nick Lothian
I'm currently coding for a machine that has 12 bytes of variable memory and 256 bytes of program memory. In a language with 32 commands. Am I coding small enough?
- Kevin Fox
Now wonders what Kevin is working on for Facebook ;-)
- Jesse Stay
Sounds like a remote control.
- Cristo
I've been coding a few of these for Halloween: http://efx-tek.com/topics...
- Kevin Fox
Cool. What's the application?
- Cristo
Light and sound effects with a few triggers.
- Kevin Fox
I must admit to being baffled by systems shipping with many gigabytes of code now that have similar functionality to systems with a few megabytes of code 15 years ago.
- Cristo
Kevin, nice! Now I want one. I remember writing a BASIC program in High School that controlled some AND gates via parallel cable on a circuit board we created in my electronics class. The purpose was to control 4 step motors. Awesome that you can just pre-program a chip now on a device like this that will do similar things. Need to look into that.
- Jesse Stay
Check out Revision3's podcasts. There are some with Patrick Norton doing this on System (I think that's the right one)
- Mattb4rd
@Paul: Which font size do you recommend for the code editor? 14pt? or is 10pt even better? ;)
- Jemm
Like jquery
- ★ Soner Gönül
Soner - that's a great example, actually. jQuery has been transformative, IMO, even in the face of alternative JS frameworks which aren't bad, just not greatness in a small package.
- Micah Wittman
Paul isn't it time for another sip of the premature optimization is the root of all evil kool-aide? You just aren't getting it :-)
- Todd Hoff
I bought a banana at my hotel yesterday. Guess how much it cost.
Kol Tregaskes, Maggie, April Buchheit and Gary Burd liked this
$5
- Paul Buchheit
$3.50
- Jordan Hofker
$1.75.
- Akiva Moskovitz
$51.70
- Snipergirl
1000 pesos.
- imabonehead
$4.99
- Gary Burd
$6.50
- Eric Logan
$6
- Jason Huebel
from iPhone
It was $1, and was one of the smallest bananas I've ever eaten! Of course the receipt was a whole 8.5x11 sheet of paper. In a grocery store you can probably get multiple pounds of bananas for $1.
- Gabe
it's 45 cents per pound in my local Wal-Mart...
- Philippe
Whole foods actually sells it for $0.60 sometimes... So it is not terribly off :)
- Bindu Reddy
Whole Foods sells small bananas for $0.60 each, or they sell bananas for $0.60/lb?
- Gabe
Paul Buchheit - Been at your job too long? QUIT! - Startup School 2009 - http://vimeo.com/7240218
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Felicia Yue, Alexander Arsky, Sachin and 88 other people liked this
couldnt agree more
- sean percival
I wonder how long he means when he says that. 5 years? 3? Less?
- Diego Barros
I don't know, I was with my first company for 4.5 years. That still made me kinda the new guy, as a lot of employees were there 20 to 30 years. I guess it depends on industry. That was the insurance industry, and as long as there was a way up I was happy with that company. Now working in dot coms, working at a place more that two years is impressive. In some ways I don't necessarily...
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- Dario Gomez
I was at my last job 8 1/2 years. In that time, Facebook and Twitter were started, Google grew up, and Bush started two wars. Maybe I stayed too long.
- Louis Gray
I'd rather my longevity at a company be determined in terms of achieving some goal. If it does not look like I will be able to accomplish something interesting, novel, or useful then I'll bail. Idiotic politics usually short circuits that game plan though.
- scott anderson
I've never worked a job for more than 2 years. I like finding new levels of experience. If they kept it a learning experience I would stay longer, but never found a company that did that.
- Jesse Stay
Scott, your reasoning led to my longevity there. I wanted to reach an end, be it M&A, IPO or something else. But it eventually became time.
- Louis Gray
Louis: The goals I set are more personal and typically are not dependent on what the company and/or my division achieves. I have been fortunate in that I have always been able to drive the projects or sub-projects that I have worked on. That said, politics and the agendas of other individuals still find a way to mess up the best of intentions.
- scott anderson
++ scott. I agree with, "If you’ve been in your job for awhile, you should quit. Google was really comfortable. I knew all the people. It’s important to do things that will make you uncomfortable." with the caveat that it is important to find a place where you can accomplish something and stay there long enough to give it legs or cut it loose. I hear overnight success takes a long time. Otherwise you are just uncomfortable for no good reason.
- Clare Dibble
Bold advice in hard times.
- Tim Tyler
great advice for people who don't have a mortgage or a family
- Terris Linenbach
+1 Terris
- Bill Hooker
Terris, I have a family of 4 kids and a mortgage. As I said I've never had a job longer than 2 years. As for going out on your own, it's difficult, but very possible. It involves a lot of sacrifice though.
- Jesse Stay
Going out on my own was the one of the best decisions I ever made in my life (even with a mortgage, family and a new baby at the time). I ended up back at a company, but this time I had founded it. There are many ways to make your life work on your own. If you really want to do it, just step off the cliff. You'll figure out a way to make it work.
- Matt Mastracci
Matt, funny how that happens - my wife was pregnant when I went out on my own as well. I still don't know how we managed all that. :-) I agree though - it was the best decision of my life. I may end up at a job again at some point, but as Paul said, at the time it "sounded like the right thing to do". I've learned so much from being on my own, and the freedom is priceless. (Paycheck, much of the time is not so priceless) :-)
- Jesse Stay
Actually it's a great advice for people who have mortgage and family and are taking it responsibly rather then being complacent in hope their current employer is here forever.
- ǝuǝƃnǝ
eugene, yeah - one thing I've learned more than anything is that control is a good thing. Even if I work for someone else I always want to be sure I've got my own thing of some sort going that I could resort to at any time (a book, side-business, blog, investments, advisory roles, etc). Of course you have to be careful about that at the same time in that your employer knows of such things and is okay of you owning that IP.
- Jesse Stay
To be clear, if you have kids, etc, find a new job before quitting your current one :)
- Paul Buchheit
It was such a pleasure to be in the audience for this!
- Jay
Paul, how long do you think is too long?
- Diego Barros
Whenever you get "too comfortable" :o)
- Susan Beebe
Yeah, the correct answer obviously depends on your situation (how much you will learn at the new job vs the old), but in general I'd guess that "too long" falls in the 5-10 year period, though if your job is bad, "too long" may happen much sooner :)
- Paul Buchheit
Totally agree with this, esp the quote at the end "It's important to do things that make you uncomfortable". IMO, people grow the most when they are forced out of their comfort zone
- Dave Hodson
It's important to do things that will make you uncomfortable because.......???
- τorƍue
Growth and flexibility. Obviously not all uncomfortable things are good though.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul Buchheit is Sarah Palin?
- Jim Norris
One of my friends has been at Apple for 10 years. She's a brilliant engineer (I've known her since college). Her reason for staying: "I've got 3 kids. They need lots of care and nurture, and they're providing plenty of challenge in my life. I don't need more." My mom sacrificed her career for her 3 kids. Her sister continued pursuing her career, since she only had one. When looking at...
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- Piaw Na
That's very reasonable Piaw -- I agree that good parents are more important than good toys or schools. The "quit your job" advice was more for people looking to start a company or something.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul agreed - entrepreneurship isn't for everyone. My dad tried it, decided it wasn't for him, and he'll be retiring in about 10 years or so after years and years of building a very successful career in the professional world. If it's for you, there are ways to make it work and provide for a family - it involves a lot of work though, and make sure you're prepared when you do it. (I sold...
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- Jesse Stay
@Scott Anderson - absolutely - I'll leave when the job is done or the politics make finishing what I need to do impossible.
- Dan Morrill AKA Techwag
@Jesse It's not about providing for the family. I'm sure entrepreneurs manage to do that or they go out of business very quickly. It's investing time in the family that's usually the missing ingredient. I know, since I did have a largely absent entrepreneurial father.
- Piaw Na
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