Clever headline in reaction to this: http://www.nytimes.com/2008... - Paul Buchheit

Don't like FISA? How bout the IRS? If you are concerned about privacy, this campaign promise will interest you -- and affect many more Americans than FISA. From the Obama site: http://tinyurl.com/6p48f8 Obama will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. - Oldengrey (Jay)

How does providing me with pre-filled tax forms using info that they already have affect my privacy? It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. (I understand that the income tax is itself a privacy invasion, but that's a separate issue) - Paul Buchheit

He says he'll "take his lumps." I wonder if he realizes that his "lumps" could mean a McCain victory. - Nick Dynice

Existing EZ 1040 should be easy enough. I don't want my employment records and my banking records in a giant database that sends me a bill. Just because they have the data doesn't make it right. For me it affects more people and is worse than FISA. (Closet Libertarian) - Oldengrey (Jay)

Jay, the fact that H&R Block and the like exist proves that it isn't easy enough for many people. I don't like taxes either, but they already have the data -- sending a little bit of it back to me doesn't harm my privacy one bit. - Paul Buchheit

I'd check the math just to be sure. ;) - Oldengrey (Jay)

Keep in mind that it's now been conclusively proven, in case anyone was still a believer that Obama was "different", that "Obama SAYS he will... " and "Obama ACTUALLY will..." are completely different things. Apply as needed to the other things he *says* he'll do to get a little more down-to-earth view. - Ryan Waldron

He says we "haven't been listening" http://tinyurl.com/5g9dup - Oldengrey (Jay)

"Haven't been listening" ha! The audacity of arrogance. I'll be voting against McCain, and it just so happens that means Obama will get my vote, but I don't support his duplicity. - Jason Wehmhoener

Don't worry Jay, those of you making $8-$14 million dollars a year from 59 different income sources won't be part of that pre-filled tax form and can continue to cheat on your complicated tax returns with a tax preparer of your choosing. But for the rest of us 99.9% of Americans who have household incomes less than $80,000 and most from one source, it would be nice not to pay H&R block $80 every year just to put the X's in the box for us. - Adam Turetzky

Adam, are you really saying that I make 14 mil a year and cheat on my taxes? That you willingly want to give your private banking and employment info to the feds but freak out over FISA? The whole class warfare thing is fogging your goggles there a little. I mean, you don't want anarchists at the socialist barbecue. Haven't you ever read Kropotkin? Fill out your own taxes and you can still keep the dough to buy toys at circuit city and the apple store! ;) And I don't mind worrying. - Oldengrey (Jay)

I haven't a clue what you make or cheat on. But why do you or anyone think that your banking and earnings are private? Hell I'll agree with you about abolishing personal income tax on wages earned. But as things are now, my employer, my creditors and if I had them my investment institutions already report everything I make to the IRS. The way things are now, I just regurgitate this info to them once a year for them see how good I am at reading it back to them. - Adam Turetzky

LOL well um, nader ftp (for the presidency)? - Mona Nomura

No thanks. - ⓞnor

So, Adam: Back to FISA. You backing Barack on this? - Oldengrey (Jay)

http://www.aclu.org/ - Michael

Jay: absolutely not. I'm outraged by his decision. It doesn't make sense. My only hunch is there is some reason he did this and plans to change it down the road. His past voting record almost never breaks rank with my other Senator from Illinois Dick Durbin. I don't know what to make of this other than if he wins the white house he plans on introducing bills or using the abusive tools already exercised by this administration (signing statements) to strip all of the last 8 years out of the books. - Adam Turetzky

Adam: What he was thinking will be revealed soon enough. I miss Chicago and Chicago politics. Next time I'll buy you a hot dog at Poochy's or Herm's -- your choice. - Oldengrey (Jay)

Ahhh yes, Dempster street hot dog joints. I'm more partial to Superdog! Although I hear they're moving it and tearing down the old one. This time for real. :) - Adam Turetzky

Then Superdog it is! - Oldengrey (Jay)

Adam, your hunch "there is some reason he did this" may be right. :-) See the Keith Olbermann MSNBC commentary on this issue. (I am reposting the link Alexei Tolkachev shared in the Dave Winer thread on Obama & FISA) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id... Watch the video. It is 10 minutes long but worth it. - Karim

Eh, "there is some clever secret reason this isn't awful" usually turns out to be wrong. Secret reasons in politics are hardly ever good reasons. It's just good old fashioned lameness. - ⓞnor

Did you watch the video, ⓞnor? :-) - Karim

So, Olbermann thinks there's maybe a loophole in the bill that allows criminal liability, and maybe Obama's gonna say "Ha ha! Fooled you all! BRING ON THE ATTACK DOGS OF JUSTICE" once Bush signs it. Bet you ten to one odds it doesn't go down that way. Ten to one odds the whole thing fizzles and we're all a bunch of fringe moonbats harping on some issue that's So Over. - ⓞnor

Olbermann is an apparatchik. He will justify whatever Obama does. - Oldengrey (Jay)

He's got some wishful thinking going on for sure, but he's no apparatchik. - ⓞnor

Karim, thanks, I hadn't seen that. It's interesting and goes along the lines of what I was thinking. But Keith said something right at the end that I think made more sense; "you're going to take the hit anyway, you're going to get beat up no matter what, do what's right". - Adam Turetzky

Well, it sounded plausible to me. :-) It's kind of the opposite of what happened in the OJ Simpson trials: he was found "not guilty" in the criminal trial, but got bankrupted in the civil trial. In this case the phone companies won't lose billions in class-action lawsuits, but maybe some of the responsible people will go to jail. Was it a flip-flop? Yes. Should he have stood his ground at the cost of losing the election? Don't think so, no. - Karim

loved the way you put that, ⓞnor - "BRING ON THE ATTACK DOGS OF JUSTICE!!!" :-D - Karim

Hey it just the Constitution, who gives a hoot...Kinda reminds me of that old adage about frogs and boiling water - if you toss one into a pot whose water is hot, it'll jump right out. But if you put one in while the water is cool, then slowly heat it up, the gradual warming will actually make the frog doze off into happily slumber... in fact, the frog will literally let himself be cooked to death without so much as a ribbit. - Will DeLuca

@Will, that's actually not true of frogs, just humans. Only in this case they aren't bothering to do it slowly. - ourdoings test